Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Genki]

I always though the previous episode, 2.22 where Sarah was all conflicted and depressed, was her struggling with the decision to go back to The League. The conclusion to the episode showed she could still be heroic and she had made peace with the decision.

 

I think the Lances' acceptance was jarring, they honestly couldn't be OK about she leaving after they just got her back again. 

[wonderwall]

I always thought that the excitement to get on the boat was a mask for Laurel and Quentin, she wanted them to know that she'll be fine and happy with them and not let them worry. It has to be that because otherwise her reaction on leaving makes no sense. However, just because she faked being excited, it doesn't make sense why Laurel was super happy to see her leave. At least you could sense Quentin's worry, but Laurel was just straight out grinning. I mean, she just got her sister back and now her sister's leaving with the chick who tranqued her? I call BS. If I were in Laurel's position I don't think I would be able to let Sara go without a fight. I mean... At least change contact numbers.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought it was faked too, many times she looked sad/pensive/regretful, like she didn't want to leave but this is the choice she made to protect her family and the City.  That's why KCs (and yes that was KC not Laurel) crazy smile was so out of place and took me out of the scene.  

[wonderwall]

At least when SA broke character it made his character look more endearing... When KC broke character it just made Laurel look like a grinning maniacal idiot who probably never cared for her sister (case in point: when Laurel found out Sara and Oliver were vigilantes she went to Oliver instead of Sara to comfort, she didn't bat an eyelash when Sara skipped out of town only leaving her with a text message, being more upset that Sara didn't tell her she was alive than being happy that she actually was alive). 

[KirkB]

If Laurel's smile at the end of the season was so jarring and out of place for so many people, why do you think the EP's put it in? Surely they would have shot the scene a number of times. Was that the best performance they could get from KC or do you think they believed they got what they wanted out of it?

[Morrigan2575]

If Laurel's smile at the end of the season was so jarring and out of place for so many people, why do you think the EP's put it in? Surely they would have shot the scene a number of times. Was that the best performance they could get from KC or do you think they believed they got what they wanted out of it?

 

Considering how many of KC's questionable acting choices are left in the show I'm guessing it's the best they could get in the time they had available to shoot.  

[ohjoy]

If Laurel's smile at the end of the season was so jarring and out of place for so many people, why do you think the EP's put it in? Surely they would have shot the scene a number of times. Was that the best performance they could get from KC or do you think they believed they got what they wanted out of it?

I do believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that KC said in an interview that she was so excited about that scene and was she believed it represent that she literally could not stop grinning in each take -- that she grinning onscreen because every take they shot had her grinning like that.

 

The result of course is that Laurel looks as though she's not really impacted by her sister leaving town with group assassins, the ringleader of which she recognized as having previously kidnapped her mother. Instead, she's just genuinely excited about the jacket her sister has bequeathed to her.

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, she said that at the Calgary Con.

[willpwr]

Yes, she did say that so maybe that was the take with the least manic grin. That scene gets funnier every time I watch it because after she turns around so that Sara can put the jacket on her, Sara had to grab her and pull her towards her to give her a goodbye kiss on the cheek and it looked like she kinda jerked back. They have a weird sibling relationship.

[Angel12d]

Yeah it was pretty obvious that weird grin was all KC and not Laurel. That's why it was so jarring. Why would you be grinning like an idiot if your sister gave you her jacket? Symbolism aside, it's ridiculous. It should have been played more subtle. 

 

But to keep my post on topic, I have to agree that Sara leaving with the LoA felt kind of weird and jarring considering she fought so hard (and threatened to kill herself) at the thought of returning to that life earlier in the season. And Laurel and Quentin's reactions didn't ring true either but I could accept that they were trying to be supportive. I don't know. I guess at least they know she's alive this time.

[statsgirl]

I always though the previous episode, 2.22 where Sarah was all conflicted and depressed, was her struggling with the decision to go back to The League. The conclusion to the episode showed she could still be heroic and she had made peace with the decision.

 

I think the Lances' acceptance was jarring, they honestly couldn't be OK about she leaving after they just got her back again. 

You can see that Quentin was not happy with it (something PB reiterated in interviews) but at this point, he probably realizes that he has no control over Sara's actions.  He's just glad she's alive, and worried what she's leaving to.

 

It makes sense that in ep 22 she was dealing with the bargain she made with the LoA to save the city and I like the idea that she realized that she could be a  hero even when she's with the LoA but that's a storyline that's pretty complex and deserves a whole lot more time than just a few seconds

 

I do believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that KC said in an interview that she was so excited about that scene and was she believed it represent that she literally could not stop grinning in each take -- that she grinning onscreen because every take they shot had her grinning like that.

 

The result of course is that Laurel looks as though she's not really impacted by her sister leaving town with group assassins, the ringleader of which she recognized as having previously kidnapped her mother. Instead, she's just genuinely excited about the jacket her sister has bequeathed to her.

We've talked about how KC said she was uncomfortable with sex scenes with SA but to my mind, this is a bigger problem,  If she messes up a scene because she can't keep her personal feelings out of it and react the way her character should, it's a problem for the show.

[wonderwall]

@statsgirl, I don't think that it'd be a problem for the show, it'll definitely be a problem for her character. I feel as though season 3a is going to be a test for Laurel. If she fails to get people on board with her journey, then we might see that in season 3b she'll either leave for good or die. There's only so much retconning a writing staff and EPs can do for a character before they realize that they've failed that character. 

 

And one of the only ways to make her win people over is through her interactions with other characters. KC said that she plays Laurel like she's half in love with Oliver, that needs to end because it makes her look weak. It'll be fine to see Laurel and Oliver as friends. Laurel also needs to look like the supportive older sister to Sara instead of the megabitch we saw in season 2 (I've mentioned I believe Laurel doesn't give a damn about Sara), Laurel also needs to get off her high horse when it comes to her interactions with Felicity and Digg but not in the sense that they're besties right off the bat. 

 

Can the writing staff do this? Yes, I believe they can. Can KC achieve this? I don't know. :/ 

[catrox14]

I always thought that the excitement to get on the boat was a mask for Laurel and Quentin, she wanted them to know that she'll be fine and happy with them and not let them worry. It has to be that because otherwise her reaction on leaving makes no sense. However, just because she faked being excited, it doesn't make sense why Laurel was super happy to see her leave. At least you could sense Quentin's worry, but Laurel was just straight out grinning. I mean, she just got her sister back and now her sister's leaving with the chick who tranqued her? I call BS. If I were in Laurel's position I don't think I would be able to let Sara go without a fight. I mean... At least change contact numbers.

 

 

That scene confirmed for me that KC is not a good fit for this part.  She herself admitted being excited to put on the jacket and IMO that informed her performance to such a degree that Laurel came off looking like an asshole. Sure Amell couldn't help but smile at EBR in their first scene but it didn't have the gravity of this scene. She was saying goodbye to her sister who is going back to the people that made her a murderer etc etc. It was a HORRIBLE performance by KC.

 

The only thing I can hope now is that the writers go ahead and write towards KC's strengths and just make her a total dick in the show.  Like make her the Big Bad. Then I can go back and fanwank that's what they were building towards for two years and would explain the utterly peculiar acting choices that never matched the dialogue or the plot.  And it would explain her behavior in all her relationships.

[Sakura12]

have to agree that Sara leaving with the LoA felt kind of weird and jarring considering she fought so hard (and threatened to kill herself)

 

Sara didn't threaten to kill herself, she did kill herself. She was only saved by Oliver and his magical cureall herbs. Why let us see someone that was willing to die so they didn't have to back to the life they ran away from, then tell us a few episodes later that she's perfectly fine going back to that life because it was her choice this time. Which also tells us that before that she was a prisoner. I can't even, with Laurel's reaction. The writers must really blind when it comes to the Laurel character if they thought people would be happy with that. Here's a character that you do like getting a happy send off by her family to go back to the life of being a mass murderer. But the horribly written Laurel get the BC jacket so yay comics!!!

 

They really screwed up by having one of the first things Sara says is "No woman should ever suffer at the hands of men." That immediately gets most of the women viewers to like her, then they show her actually being a badass that can kick ass and is not a damsel. Then they expect us to want constantly damseled and kidnapped Laurel to be her replacement? What kind of crack are they smoking when they write the Laurel scenes?  

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[willpwr]

Wrong thread, this is what happens when I have too many open windows.

Edited August 26, 2014 by willpwr

[wonderwall]

They made a martyr out of Sara when she got on that boat. Sara essentially went against everything she believed in, in order to save Starling by making a deal with the LoA. 

 

In the perfect world, we would've seen Sara put on a mask for Laurel and Quentin only to have them call her out on her bullshit before they give her a tearful goodbye with Laurel telling her to be safe because she doesn't want to lose her sister again and that she'll keep her jacket safe for when she returns. Oliver wouldn't be mentioned by any of the sisters (because this is their goodbye, and it has nothing to do with Oliver), and Laurel wouldn't be grinning like an idiot. It should've been an honest scene between two sisters. Unfortunately, it didn't come out this way. 

[Sakura12]

Or they didn't have to have Sara give up one of the few pieces of clothing she owns to her sister in the first place. She doesn't need anyone to take care of a leather jacket for her. Plus it's cold in Nanda Parbat. 

 

Laurel can go buy her own damn jacket. Trying to turn Laurel into Sara does nothing for her character. She shouldn't want to be Sara, pretend to be Sara, wear Sara's clothing or take the name Sara choose for herself if she wants to be seen as an individual. If they go with that as her motivation it makes Laurel look like a creeper with a personality disorder. 

[wonderwall]

I think that if the writers really wanted Sara to give Laurel the jacket, then it would've been more beneficial to Laurel's character for not instantly wearing it. Instead it would've been better for Laurel to keep it handy for when Sara comes back (because of course she wants her sister to come back). It would've been growth on Laurel's part. That scene was meant to be Sara's scene but Laurel essentially stole it by making it about her and the damned jacket. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to derail or go off topic from the current...topic but what ep is this from? 

Willa really sold Thea crushing on Tommy, and how sad she was he was talking about Laurel.

 

I kinda want to see that. 

[catrox14]

Not answering for the commenter, but I remember Thea clearly crushing on  Tommy in s1 and at her bday party she realized he loved Laurel. She was broken hearted. And then further she was devastated when she told Oliver she knew she was Malcolm's daughter and told Oliver that she was worthless because she had crushed on and kissed her heretofore unknown half-brother. 

[Kymmi]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to derail or go off topic from the current...topic but what ep is this from? 

I kinda want to see that. 

 

I just started rewatching the series from the beginning and it's in Legacies, episode 1.6.  Really great scenes for Thea & Tommy.  And I'll take my Laurel irritations from rewatching to the Laurel thread.  

[wingster55]

I swear I don't remember a moment where she kissed him.

Guess a s1 rewatch is in order

[catrox14]

She tried to kiss him in The Man Beneath the Hood. He didn't kiss her back

[wingster55]

Ohh, the almost kiss. I remember that, yea.

That was when Laurel first agreed to date Tommy IIRC. 

 

...i'm still gonna rewatch s1.

[Kymmi]

I swear I don't remember a moment where she kissed him.

Guess a s1 rewatch is in order

 

She didn't kiss him in 1.6, I should clarify, but she realized that his turning to her for advice on women was about Laurel and not her.  She then gets drunk and tries to dance with him, I think.  I don't remember if she tried to kiss him.

[Sakura12]

Short vid of Caity and Katrina talking about Nyssa and Sara's relationship.

 

[TanyaKay]

Katrina Law is awesome, I want to see more of her on Arrow.

[pootlus]

Either that, or they need to create a show for her to be the star of (although that'd lead to less Nyssa on Arrow which would be bad for us!).

[quarks]

I for one am all for a Nyssa and Sara spinoff with occasional crossovers with Arrow and Flash.  

[Velocity23]

Moved to Apparences of Arrow cast

Edited September 2, 2014 by Velocity23

[ohjoy]

Not to derail the current discussion, but I am finishing up my Season 1 rewatch (I broke down and bought the DVDs off eBay), and this time I decided to pretend that Oliver and Tommy both were aware that Thea was half-sister to both of them. Obviously that doesn't work for that first "Dude, your sister's hot now" comment, but after that, it's surprisingly endearing, and makes me sad that we didn't get any real interaction with the three of them as a pseudo-family unit. The scene right after Roy gets kidnapped by the vigilante-wannabe is especially sweet with that in mind -- she had one brother to take care of her while the other brother took care of the problem -- which I tend to think is exactly the roles they would have played in her life all the time. That dynamic would have been interesting to see.

[wingster55]

*sigh*

There's definitely a lot that could be explored if Tommy was brought back.

[dtissagirl]

That's something that wouldn't sit well with me actually...I prefer it when Felicity makes their job easier...not possible. Meaning they could still do what needs to be done..but it's harder.

That would really undermine Oliver telling her she's his partner. Both he and Dig think she's essential to the whole thing, they've said it out loud on the show. Oliver with his partner speech, Dig when he told her she's irreplaceable. She's not just there to make their lives easier.

Actually, the pretty chick who sits back and makes dudes' lives easier is an old sexist trope from comics and pulp detective ficiton that's been around TV for years and years, and that I would really hope could die soon.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wingster55]

That would really undermine Oliver telling her she's his partner. Both he and Dig think she's essential to the whole thing, they've said it out loud on the show. Oliver with his partner speech, Dig when he told her she's irreplaceable. She's not just there to make their lives easier.

Actually, the pretty chick who sits back and makes dudes' lives easier is an old sexist trope from comics and pulp detective ficiton that's been around TV for years and years, and that I would really hope could die soon.

Essential...sure but what I mean is...Oliver not having Felicity shouldn't = him not being able to fight crime. Same if he didn't have Diggle.

[dtissagirl]

Essential...sure but what I mean is...Oliver not having Felicity shouldn't = him not being able to fight crime. Same if he didn't have Diggle.

 

I'm sorry, but that contradicts the plot of the show. The entire point of Oliver's apology to Felicity in Blast Radius is him saying it out loud that he cannot do this alone anymore. He says it, that he meant to do it alone, but now he relies on Diggle and Felicity. And I think more than that, Oliver doesn't wanna do it alone anymore.

And we know he's gonna try to push Dig away, and probably Felicity too in S3, but I have no doubt it's gonna be framed by the narrative as him making a mistake.

[writersblock51]

Oliver wouldn't last long, and I mean a day or so, in action without Diggle or Felicity, IMO.  And now that they've built the team, I certainly think the show benefits from having the team central to Oliver's funciton as Arrow.

 

Essential?  I think it's a matter of perspective but I'd lean towards, yes, Felicity and Diggle are essential to Oliver's mission.  Maybe not at first but they are now.

[wonderwall]

I actually LIKE that Oliver can't do this alone because he's not perfect. He has areas where he lacks expertise like computers and common sense :p It just makes Oliver seem more of a realistic character rather than some perfect hero that can do anything and everything... It just makes him more human. So yes, I like that Felicity and Diggle are essential to Oliver in order for him to successfully save the city. But it's not even just that. Oliver needs them personally as well. He opens up to them, and is almost always 100% truthful to them. Oliver doesn't exactly have anyone in his life like that so when Oliver said he needed Felicity, I don't think he just meant in the sense that he needed her expertise, it also meant that he needed her specifically because Felicity (and Digg) make him a better person and make him strive to be the hero he can be. 

 

And it's kind of a nice thing to see Oliver needing people, he's not an island (pun intended).

Edited September 2, 2014 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

It all goes back to humanizing Oliver. Its funny people complain about romance in a show, but we grow to love characters based on their relationships. How they interact with each other, how they learn, change, laugh and cry together. Friend or Foe or Lover; It's all so important to the show narrative.

 

I always thought that one of the biggest problems with the Lana Lang character in the first few seasons (not touching later seasons) wasn't so much her, but how the people in her life reacted to her. It wasn't an even playing field. She was held too high. 

 

Arrow has done a fantastic job of placing Diggle/Oliver/Felicity on an even playing field. They each have their place in the team and they acknowledge and value each other. Each one is awesome on their own, but its something special together.

[Morrigan2575]

I can't even think of a "hero" in recent years that didn't have a team

Buffy had the Scooby Gang

Angel had Angel Investigations

Sookie had all of Bon Temps + Eric/Pam

Xena had Gabriel and Joxer (on occasion)

Hercules had Ioles

Greateat American Hero had Bill Maxwell and his wife and later his students

Clark Kent had Chloe and later Oliver + justice league.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

The Winchester Bros? or does Castiel count as a gang?

[Morrigan2575]

Yep forgot about the Winchesters after S1 they always had a support system

[wingster55]

The emotional support? Sure I buy that.

Needing him to be more effective? Also ok.

Needing them to be competent? No. I can't buy it.

 

Buffy had the Scooby Gang
Angel had Angel Investigations
Sookie had all of Bon Temps + Eric/Pam
Xena had Gabriel and Joxer (on occasion)
Hercules had Ioles
Greateat American Hero had Bill Maxwell and his wife and later his students
Clark Kent had Chloe and later Oliver + justice league.

 

With the exception of Clark at times the rest could get shit done on their own. (See the times Buffy went on patrol all by her lonesome for example) 

That's my point. 

[catrox14]

Even Superman had help.

Needing them to be competent? No. I can't buy it.

 

I'm very confused.  Oliver is not incompetent, but IMO it would be incompetent for him to not avail himself of people that make him a more effective and efficient hero.  And keeps him from spinning back to vigilante man.

Edited September 3, 2014 by catrox14

[wingster55]

Another point: I'm thinking on what Diggle really brought to the team in s2...and I'm blanking. I really don't recall anything where he did something that made me think "Man if Diggle didn't do this, they would've been screwed"

 

Also I feel I've discussed this before.

[writersblock51]

I don't think anyone has said that Oliver is incompetent without his team - but he sure as hell is more vulnerable.  He can do MORE of what he wants, not less, because he's not working alone anymore.

 

I don't understand the beef with him having a team to help him.  Clearly, there's a lot of precedent in other shows/movies that follow the 'team' /support idea, too.

 

Bonus: now that Oliver has people in the lair to talk with, no voiceovers!!!

[Chaser]

Oh poor dumb Clark lol

 

 

Removing the emotional support: Could he do it on his own? I think so. I like the fact that Oliver is smart (ignoring the dumb ass plot device decisions) and certainly capable. I want to respect the hero's abilities and I respect Oliver's. I don't want a Clark situation were he needs his hand held and big flashing signs. However, he wouldn't be as effective or be able to maintain the mission on his own. I'm thinking of the number of times he has been hurt and the potential for more damage. He needs someone to watch his back (Diggle). He also needs resources (Felicity).

Edited September 3, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[catrox14]

 

Diggle really brought to the team in s2...and I'm blanking. I really don't recall anything where he did something that made me think "Man if Diggle didn't do this, they 

would've been screwed"

 

His relationship with Lyla got them inside ARGUS so they could force Amanda to turn back the drone.  

 

He saved Oliver from being shot by Isobel by shooting her himself when Oliver went to rescue Roy. 

 

He's his voice of reason right alongside Felicity.

Edited September 3, 2014 by catrox14

[wonderwall]

Basically Diggle was the most useful during the suicide squad episode, he got shoved into the background when Sara appeared. Then again, everyone but Oliver and teh Lances got shoved into the background so... 

 

Diggle was also important in the season finale. He was right by Oliver's side fighting with him over the past 3 episodes. He helped look for Oliver when he went AWOL both in the beginning of the season and at the end. He was the silent supporter. Hopefully he'll be less silent in the third season. 

[wingster55]

I think he didn't really have much focus in the beginning of s2. 

If Colton's rambling answer is to be believed...we may see this question on the show.

[TanyaKay]

I don't think anyone has said that Oliver is incompetent without his team - but he sure as hell is more vulnerable.  He can do MORE of what he wants, not less, because he's not working alone anymore.

 

I don't understand the beef with him having a team to help him.  Clearly, there's a lot of precedent in other shows/movies that follow the 'team' /support idea, too.

 

Bonus: now that Oliver has people in the lair to talk with, no voiceovers!!!

 

Boy am I glad or what that those Oliver Queen monologues are over. They made me want to slap Oliver silly.

 

Team Arrow FTW.