Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[quarks]

He doesn't get to lie just because telling the truth could cause a distraction.  He doesn't have some special hero card in which everyone else has to walk on eggshells to keep him happy and undistracted forever.  He has the same requirements to be decent as everyone else.

 

Being afraid of losing people is not a valid excuse to lie to, manipulate, and use people.  

 

To be clear, I think Oliver is pretty clearly in the wrong here - especially since Arrow already showed us what happens when Oliver lies to people close to him about DNA issues. He loses his company and his sister heads off with a mass murderer and ends up killing his ex-girlfriend which eventually leads to her being filled with bloodlust. LEARN FROM THIS, OLIVER. So, yeah, apart from the fact that I don't think it's a good idea to lie to a live in girlfriend about the existence of your kid, I think Arrow has already shown us that lying about this sort of thing does not work out in the long run. At all.

 

But with that said, to be fair to Oliver, we aren't just talking about losing a few people here - we're talking about thousands of people (and possibly that poor donkey) dying in the first timeline, including the majority of the people that he cares about, because he talked about this with Felicity in the first timeline and she stalked off.  Of course, the big problem here is that Barry told him that changing the timeline makes things worse, so now tens of thousands of people could die, but Oliver did tell Barry that he felt this meant they got a second chance, and in this second chance, where Felicity doesn't know, those people - including Felicity - are alive. I can see Oliver thinking that this justifies continuing to lie to Felicity (plus, bonus, he's respecting the bizarre wishes of the mother of his kid) even if everything that happened in the second season should be telling him TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH ALREADY BEFORE SHE JOINS MALCOLM MERLYN AND STARTS KILLING PEOPLE WITH HER COMPUTERS.

[theacostov]

To be clear, I think Oliver is pretty clearly in the wrong here - especially since Arrow already showed us what happens when Oliver lies to people close to him about DNA issues. He loses his company and his sister heads off with a mass murderer and ends up killing his ex-girlfriend which eventually leads to her being filled with bloodlust. LEARN FROM THIS, OLIVER. So, yeah, apart from the fact that I don't think it's a good idea to lie to a live in girlfriend about the existence of your kid, I think Arrow has already shown us that lying about this sort of thing does not work out in the long run. At all.

But with that said, to be fair to Oliver, we aren't just talking about losing a few people here - we're talking about thousands of people (and possibly that poor donkey) dying in the first timeline, including the majority of the people that he cares about, because he talked about this with Felicity in the first timeline and she stalked off. Of course, the big problem here is that Barry told him that changing the timeline makes things worse, so now tens of thousands of people could die, but Oliver did tell Barry that he felt this meant they got a second chance, and in this second chance, where Felicity doesn't know, those people - including Felicity - are alive. I can see Oliver thinking that this justifies continuing to lie to Felicity (plus, bonus, he's respecting the bizarre wishes of the mother of his kid) even if everything that happened in the second season should be telling him TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH ALREADY BEFORE SHE JOINS MALCOLM MERLYN AND STARTS KILLING PEOPLE WITH HER COMPUTERS.

Ok he didn't have that conversation then so he didn't get distracted but what's keeping him from telling her now? He has no excuse. If it's so Samantha doesn't find out then it's dumb because they've been keeping a huge ass secret everyday for the last 4 years. So so so dumb.

[quarks]

Ok he didn't have that conversation then so he didn't get distracted but what's keeping him from telling her now? He has no excuse. If it's so Samantha doesn't find out then it's dumb because they've been keeping a huge ass secret everyday for the last 4 years. So so so dumb.

 

Because when she found out in the original timeline, they had a fight, and everyone ended up dead.

 

When she didn't find out in the second timeline, they didn't have a fight, and only Vandal Savage ended up dead.

 

So Oliver seems to be assuming that if he tells her now, in this second timeline, she'll break up with him, and everyone will end up dead again.

 

I think this is pretty questionable logic, myself, especially since the only reason everyone ended up dead in the original timeline was that Oliver was distracted for that particular fight.  Once he's back in Star City, he doesn't have a fight to face for another week, so, yeah, in my opinion, at least, he could have at least said, "Yes, something is going on, but can you give me time to sort through it?"  But once again, we see that my opinion is not Oliver's opinion.

[AyChihuahua]

To be clear, I think Oliver is pretty clearly in the wrong here - especially since Arrow already showed us what happens when Oliver lies to people close to him about DNA issues. He loses his company and his sister heads off with a mass murderer and ends up killing his ex-girlfriend which eventually leads to her being filled with bloodlust. LEARN FROM THIS, OLIVER. So, yeah, apart from the fact that I don't think it's a good idea to lie to a live in girlfriend about the existence of your kid, I think Arrow has already shown us that lying about this sort of thing does not work out in the long run. At all.

 

But with that said, to be fair to Oliver, we aren't just talking about losing a few people here - we're talking about thousands of people (and possibly that poor donkey) dying in the first timeline, including the majority of the people that he cares about, because he talked about this with Felicity in the first timeline and she stalked off.  Of course, the big problem here is that Barry told him that changing the timeline makes things worse, so now tens of thousands of people could die, but Oliver did tell Barry that he felt this meant they got a second chance, and in this second chance, where Felicity doesn't know, those people - including Felicity - are alive. I can see Oliver thinking that this justifies continuing to lie to Felicity (plus, bonus, he's respecting the bizarre wishes of the mother of his kid) even if everything that happened in the second season should be telling him TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH ALREADY BEFORE SHE JOINS MALCOLM MERLYN AND STARTS KILLING PEOPLE WITH HER COMPUTERS.

Except again, the battle is over.  Telling her NOW isn't going to result in the deaths of thousands of people.  I'm fine that he didn't tell her pre-battle the second time.  That is wholly irrelevant NOW.  And he's in the other timeline, that is a done deal.  

 

And the writers are giving all these interviews about how there will be major consequences to his lies....NO, REALLY?  As I said in another thread, there are ALWAYS consequences, and he NEVER learns.  So I am not at all confident that the show knows this.  Really, he's basically gotten away with all his lies and manipulation.  Thea wasn't mad at him for keeping the Arrow secret, Laurel wasn't particularly mad at him, Felicity wasn't particularly mad at him for the BS LOA lies and manipulation.  Digg was, that lasted a few episodes.  

 

He is still Ollie, really.  He keeps getting away with lies and manipulation, so he keeps doing it.  It's absolutely disgusting.  I do not know how she can ever trust him again after their inevitable breakup and inevitable reconcilation.  EVERYONE had reason to believe he had truly changed, from Felicity to the viewers.  But he didn't.  AGAIN.  So why believe it next time?  How many times do I let the same person hit me in the face before I stop believing he's not going to do it again?

I think this is pretty questionable logic, myself, especially since the only reason everyone ended up dead in the original timeline was that Oliver was distracted for that particular fight.

I'm sorry, but that is incredibly questionable logic.  Telling her (which he didn't actually do, she figured it out) didn't result in the deaths of thousands of people.  Him being his usual solo plan asshole self and/or being distracted because he was a POS bald-faced liar did.  Re this incredibly questionable logic being Oliver's opinion (which I'm not sure we know for sure), that is another example of him being dumb as a doorknob, and also, as always, rationalizing the bullshit manipulation he WANTS TO DO ANYWAY.  It is S3 all over again.  

 

So Oliver seems to be assuming that if he tells her now, in this second timeline, she'll break up with him, and everyone will end up dead again.

So she can never break up with him, bc people might die?  That's great for her.  What if she just doesn't love him anymore?  Plus, I don't believe it.  He's not telling her pure and simple because he doesn't want her to dump him.  That's it.  And that is manipulation.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[ohjoy]

So we got 8 episodes of good, mature, happy Olicity (I'm including The Flash episode) before they fucked everything up. I have to be honest, considering the show is the show, that's 7 more episodes than I expected.

It's funny -- a little over a year ago, I was saying that all I was hoping for was a short string of "pure, unadulterated Olicity" before they broke them up again and I dropped this show like a poison-secreting memory worm. So on that front I'm actually happy we made it this far.

 

But, also from a little over a year ago (bolding and emphasis added):

.... I maybe could have tolerated four years if they hadn't pulled the gun on crucial tidbits like "first non-fakeout non-dream-sequence kiss" already. Once you start that clock ticking, you've got approximately one season, and then I'm probably out. Unless you start that countdown, and then try to hit the pause button with obstacles like love triangles [season 3] or unexpected children [season 4]. Then I'm definitely out until those things are no longer factors. ... I'm preparing to willfully ignore even my favorite characters for the duration of any storyline that makes me want to put my fist through my tv screen. So they'd better find a really good hook if they want me to stay.

 

SECRETS AND LIES about either of the above are the ultimate showkillers for me. (I'm not even a fan when these particular complications are properly communicated -- although that's probably because I've never seen them properly communicated in television before.) What's funny to me now is that I'm not mad at Felicity for OOC overreacting, and I'm not even mad at Oliver for being a level 1 to-the-moon scared witless idiot (though clearly there's a lot of SMH going on over here) -- I'm mad at the writers. This is STUPID, you guys. STUPID. Clearly they're writing backwards again: there's a point they want to get to, and to do that they had to have the babymama drama that was hanging out in the ether (that they put there in the first place) resolved in the most drawn out, dramatic way possible -- and to do that they have to give Oliver a reason to keep secrets from Felicity, and since "Babymama said I couldn't tell" obviously does not hold water in any reality (even the show's reality) it had to be combined with "universe-ending paradoxes would ensue" in Oliver's mind to get him to the point of secret-keeping. So Felicity had to act very uncharacteristically, and then Oliver had to hear about it third-hand (instead of remembering the context of what he had witnessed first-hand) so he would react desperately to the incomplete information and start this chain of secret-keeping events.

[theacostov]

So Oliver seems to be assuming that if he tells her now, in this second timeline, she'll break up with him, and everyone will end up dead again.

I did not get that at all from what I saw on screen. How did I miss that,I really don't want to rewatch though. Still stupid.

[AyChihuahua]

I did not get that at all from what I saw on screen.

I'm really not buying that Oliver currently believes thousands of people will somehow die if he tells Felicity now.  I'm going to need some pretty clear dialogue from the show to believe he thinks that, and even then I'll still think it's beyond dumb for him to think that.

 

I 100% buy that he thinks she'll dump him, and that terrifies him.  But you know what, she was terrified of him friend-dumping her re Moira's parentage, and she told him anyway.  He needs to borrow some of her balls and tell her the damn truth.  But he ain't gonna, she's gonna find out some horrible way, and she's going to dump him.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

I don't know. He is pretty stupid. 

[Starfish35]

No, I didn't get that either. What I got was that he would have told her the truth the second time after it was all over, even with what Barry told him. That's why he was basically pleading with Samantha to let him tell her. But she (absurdly) said no, and he (stupidly) caved in to her demands.

But agreed that the cuddle scene was a little nauseous, considering the parallels with that infamous Lauriver scene. Ugh.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know. He is pretty stupid. 

Hey, I was the Queen of that bandwagon last season.  The problem is, he's supposed to be becoming a superhero.  Superheroes aren't morons.  He can't keep being a moron and have this show's premise work.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence that he thinks thousands of people will spontaneously combust if he tells Felicity he's a baby daddy NOW.  THEN, sure, I am fine with him not telling her before the battle.  Heck, I'll give him up to a week now.  If he tells her next episode, prior to any 

proposal

, I'll still be fine.  But after that, he's just flat scum.

[Password]

Yeah I'm really hoping that

anything to do with a proposal is a misdirect

because tainted doesn't begin to explain how Olicity would feel from then on.

[calliope1975]

I've moved on to vindictiveness, I think. I now want Felicity to break up with Oliver. Fuck him. This is the same girl who found out about Thea's parentage and agonized over whether to tell him before ultimately doing so because they are partners in several senses of the word. If I had seen one hint that he wasn't perfectly fine with his sethcrets and lieess in that last scene, I could have a bit of sympathy, but I didn't. I don't really want to see them apart and still working together, and I sure as hell don't want to watch a repeat of S3, but I can't but feel that Felicity is going to get royally fucked over, and I'm not here for that. 

 

Maybe I'd feel better if I knew we had a spoiler of Diggle just going to town on him. Not that Felicity doesn't have a perfectly fine right hook of her own.

Edited December 3, 2015 by calliope1975

[dtissagirl]

I think I'm into payback too. Dump him, revoke his access to every building she owns/leases, which includes the campaign offices, the Arrow bunker, Palmer Tech, and maybe the loft if rent is on her; lift all funds going into his mayoral campaign and superheroing,. And then opening auditions for a replacement Green Arrow.

She's the superhero whisperer anyway, I bet she finds a replacement in no time. She has the specs and the means to. And the motivation.

I vote Lyla.

[apinknightmare]

 If I had seen one hint that he wasn't perfectly fine with his sethcrets and lieess in that last scene, I could have a bit of sympathy, but I didn't. 

 

Yeah, that last scene was so terrible. He clearly wanted to tell her when he was talking to Samantha, he looked so heartbroken when he said, "She's a nice person. She's the best." But then at the end he seemed relieved, and ick. 

[calliope1975]

I think I'm into payback too. Dump him, revoke his access to every building she owns/leases, which includes the campaign offices, the Arrow bunker, Palmer Tech, and maybe the loft if rent is on her; lift all funds going into his mayoral campaign and superheroing,. And then opening auditions for a replacement Green Arrow.

She's the superhero whisperer anyway, I bet she finds a replacement in no time. She has the specs and the means to. And the motivation.

I vote Lyla.

 

Yep. He likes suburbia so much he can't tell the truth, he can leave. Lyla would look amazing in the Arrow 2.0 costume. None of this shoulder pad stuff. There are also a couple hot guys in Gotham that could pinch hit if necessary. Curtis could step it up. Dig can find that green ring he deserves. Point is, Star(ling) City has options. If Felicity's going to bankroll this shindig, she deserves some respect.

[Chaser]

I want him to bath in guilt. I want her to find out and then lay it on real thick. Be super affectionate and talk about love, trust and honesty. Talk about their future together and how far they have come. 

 

I seriously want him to cry.

[Lady Calypso]

You know what frustrates me? That this isn't even new territory and the show just keeps re-using and recycling the same storyline skeleton. He makes stupid decisions and keeps secrets not because he's selfish, but because he think it's a selfless act, or because he wants to protect the people he cares about. Guess what? Someone finds out! They get mad! We get sad Oliver. Oliver somehow makes up for it. They're all good again. Rinse, recycle, repeat. We already have seen versions of this with Oliver and Felicity. It's almost always his fault, the other person (rightly) gets angry and dumps him as a friend/lover/whatever. Oliver distracts himself through work. We see him mature. And then suddenly, we're back at point A because the show doesn't know how to move past this cycle. They choose to make Oliver wrong because he seems to be the easiest target on the show. He's done stuff like this before; why not continue doing it? Except I'm sick of it.

 

It makes me constantly understand the other's POV and root for them, but it also demeans Oliver as a character and makes me also want to defend him. It makes people attack him because it's his fault. Diggle, Felicity, Laurel, Quentin. I mean, Thea's done it too. The only person we have seen under the true wrath of Oliver and he got to do the 'dumping', so to speak, is with Moira (and I guess Quentin this past season...for like three scenes). It's just frustrating, because why can't someone else be keeping a secret and Oliver gets genuinely mad? Why is it always Oliver who has to be the liar? Why do they keep adding onto his manpain? He's honestly been through the most on this goddamn show. He constantly has to apologize, and yes it is because he deserves it. I'm not saying that he's a victim because he's the cause of the majority of the problems. But why does the writing choose to sacrifice him whenever they need a 'dramatically angsty' arc? It's why a lot of people hate Oliver, and I can't even disagree. I think the writing of his character makes him a victim to the writing and to the showrunners (if that makes any damn sense).

 

I think it's going to take a bit more for me to truly hate him, in all honesty. The showrunners and the writers create so much pain behind Oliver and that makes the character hateable, or at least frustrating. It feels uneven because while Oliver whines and moans about having to be alone, others whine and moan about him doing the same shit over and over and I totally sympathize with them. I just want them to actually try something new, just like they actually have been doing the last seven episodes. I know he has PTSD and he won't get over it. He's never dealt with what's happened and he needs to. But stop moving him forward, only to shove him right back. 

 

Why can't this show let him mend the relationships and not continously break them whenever something happens? He JUST fixed his relationship with Diggle. He just fixed his relationship with Thea and Laurel. Now he will have to fix his relationship with Felicity?!?! The sad thing is just because this is his show, doesn't mean he needs all the angsty storylines.

[AustenChick]

I kind of wish they just had Samantha have a husband -- a guy that has already been a father to William. Then Oliver would be torn about being a father to William himself or leaving his kid in a happy family away from his world. In this way, I could see Oliver stepping back and leaving William alone and not telling Felicity. I also think it might have been slightly more interesting. But well, whatever.

 

But anyway, I was ticked Oliver lied, but for some reason, I always want to defend him. I think back to the Lost Souls episode when Oliver tells Felicity that this entire relationship thing is still new to him and how he's still new at it. Look, if we're honest, Oliver has been like the perfect boyfriend for 7 episodes. But since he's still new at this relationship thing, I can see how he's going to eff up. I mean, the dude really hasn't ever had a fully functional loving relationship. Oliver has lost almost everyone that he loves. From the premiere of this season, I think they've set up Oliver being insecure about their relationship. He wants to marry her, but finds out she wasn't all blissed out with happiness when they were away. He sees her working way too much and doesn't know how to reach her so he reaches out to her mom without telling her so Donna can Felicity figure stuff out. Oliver says, "I don't know why she chose me." I think he's still that way. Unsure she wants to completely be with him. Yes, she's told him time and again how much he loves him, but since Oliver has never really had that kind of love before, he questions it.

 

They've known each out for three years or more, but they've only been together 6 months. I mean, that's still young in relationships. Even one as epic as theirs.

 

I've been in a relationship for 15 years so that's how I can say this. But the first year of the relationship is always the hardest, especially for someone that's insecure as Oliver. I was the insecure one in the relationship and I kept mucking it up because I didn't know how to function in a relationship.

 

Oliver isn't perfect. Felicity isn't either. The difference is that Felicity is more able to open up when Oliver presses her to. They've already shown how she's the one person he can't stand to lose. Therefore, he'll do anything to keep her. Even lie. As dumb as the lie is.

 

I just wish they've let Oliver and Felicity be like the Eric and Tami Friday Night Lights couple of the superhero world. A solid relationship that has emotional ups and downs that don't include lying about secret children.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AustenChick

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not upset by this story but, can I just point out...it's not A lie. It's a multitude of upcoming lies. Oliver has every intention of continuing to visit William. Each visit, is another lie/deception, one that Felicity is probably footing the bill for each time he sneaks away for a visit.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[NumberCruncher]

I was actually doing better this afternoon and then I saw the gifset of Felicity caressing a peaceful Oliver in her arms and I got all ragey again. It's going to be a looooong season (if I last until the end, that is).

For the record, I've never outright hated Oliver and I still don't. In fact, I've only ever hated two characters on this show: Ray and Malcolm. But I'm in full agreement with you, Lady Calypso, that I hate that the EPs/writers just keep recycling the same character beats and storylines over and over again. If that's all they know how to do then maybe it's finally time to wrap things up for good. I do wonder how long it will take for the audience to finally realize that they're being fed the same thing every season before they finally tire of it.

I understand the concept of TV relationship tropes, but this show is abusing the hell out of them. Can the writers please come up with one truly refreshing, original storyline for once?

Edited December 3, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[dtissagirl]

Also: over the top original timeline Felicity pointing out that telling the truth in this matter should be a relief vs. boob cuddling *in utter relief* Oliver because he decided to lie. You put this kind of on the nose contrast in your narrative, I'm gonna assign meaning to it: yuck.

[statsgirl]

I wish they had given Samantha a boyfriend or a husband and let everyone handle this like mature adults.  I would have found that more interesting.

 

 TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH ALREADY BEFORE SHE JOINS MALCOLM MERLYN AND STARTS KILLING PEOPLE WITH HER COMPUTERS.

I want to see that show. Especially if they keep snarking at each other.

 

I 100% buy that he thinks she'll dump him, and that terrifies him.  But you know what, she was terrified of him friend-dumping her re Moira's parentage, and she told him anyway.  He needs to borrow some of her balls and tell her the damn truth.

From s2, I think the writers have been clear who is the  better superhero.

[nksarmi]

At some point in time last season, I was very leery of them getting Oliver and Felicity together so early in a show that I believe will run 5 or 6 seasons that I wasn't sure they were "end game."

 

BUT now that I've seen what they have done so far this season, I 100% believe that they are end game and I don't believe for a minute they are even going to break up this season.  I think they will weather a very rough patch but that everyone - probably even Laurel; heck maybe baby momma herself - is going to tell Felicity how different she is, how different Oliver is with her, and that she needs to forgive him.  And then she will and we'll probably have a wedding next season that will get utterly and completely ruined by the big bad or some other nonsense.

 

I think the biggest reason I can't accept that Oliver and Felicity will break up is that I won't be able to watch one minute of them working together on Team Arrow if they do.  I find it hard enough to believe that Laurel would want anything to do with him after all the crap they went through - I cannot believe Felicity and Oliver could be around each other and function if they broke up.  That just does not compute.

 

So them breaking up means that Felicity leaves Team Arrow and that can't last for long - fans would hate it, ratings would sink, bad, bad, bad times for the show.  I don't think they will go there, nor do I think either of them - but especially Oliver - will date anyone else again. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[AyChihuahua]

Yay, I'm not alone in my vindictiveness!!!  SO looking forward to her dumping him while he cries (I will be sad for her, obviously, but fuck him).  I'm legit going to point and laugh at his lying manipulative tear-streaked face.

 

I have to say, I don't see how they reasonably come back from this.  I mean, they will.  The reconciliation is as inevitable as the breakup.  But really, I don't see how they can make it believable that she ever trusts him again.

 

I also don't know how this is going to work with Team Arrow.  Is she going to quit and [temporarily] be replaced by Curtis?  Felicity puts up with a lot for Team Arrow, but having to work with him after they were blissfully together, then he lied and manipulated and lied some more, then she dumps him, seems to be too much to me.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Lady Calypso]

Yay, I'm not alone in my vindictiveness!!!  SO looking forward to her dumping him while he cries (I will be sad for her, obviously, but fuck him).  I'm legit going to point and laugh at his lying manipulative tear-streaked face.

 

I have to say, I don't see how they reasonably come back from this.  I mean, they will.  The reconciliation is as inevitable as the breakup.  But really, I don't see how they can make it believable that she ever trusts him again.

 

I also don't know how this is going to work with Team Arrow.  Is she going to quit and [temporarily] be replaced by Curtis?  Felicity puts up with a lot for Team Arrow, but having to work with him after they were blissfully together, then he lied and manipulated and lied some more, then she dumps him, seems to be too much to me.  

 

You know, maybe I have too much faith right now, but realistically, if Oliver and Felicity were real people (or if more competent writers/showrunners were writing the show), I think this would ultimately be the thing to get Oliver to actually start maturing, and for real. Before he actually got into a relationship with Felicity, it was easier to not go down that road of opening his heart to her, so it was easier for him to lie to her. But, of course, things got complicated due to his feelings. It happened with Thea (sisterly love and the fact that everyone around them was dying) when he finally told her that he was the Arrow. Sure, it took three years, but he told her and was honest and look where their relationship is now. In terms of the romantic relationship with Oliver and Felicity, he had never been in such a long term or serious relationship. Sure, his first 'official' relationship was with Laurel, and in context, it was his first 'serious' relationship. Except only Laurel thought it was serious. Oliver was never serious about it, or else he wouldn't have cheated on her multiple times or been such a dick to her. Sure, they ended up talking about moving in together, but it was clear he never wanted marriage with her. Maybe on the island, sure. He lost his father, he lost Sara and he endured a lot so the only hope he held on to for that first year was Laurel (well that, and the fact that Lauriver was a serious endgame couple back then).

 

But with Felicity? He's dated other girls, but none of them have been as serious as Felicity. Oliver has not been happy in a long time. There was the half-faked happiness when he first returned from the island (I say half-faked because I believe he truly was happy to be back with his mother and sister), but true happiness in which he could open up? No way. It's what makes all his relationships only go so far. He can't be honest, he has to lie and hold back and do things by himself because he knows he's damaged. It took him a long time (season 3's finale, in fact) to finally accept that he can be happy, and that he deserves it. 

 

Listen; I have always believed that no matter how many people are there for him, and no matter how much love he's given, Oliver can't do this on his own. As in, he cannot move past his traumas on his own, nor can he truly be helped by the people closest to him. He needs someone more neutral, a third party to help him heal. Only when he's healed that he can be truly, truly happy. Only then can he have a functioning life. Until then, it's only putting off the inevitable, which is what happened this past episode. Oliver is still doing things pretty much on his own, if you look deep enough. Sure, he finally let himself be open enough to try a relationship with Felicity, but he hasn't dealt with his past. He's working on moving forward when he hasn't dealt with the past. He moved away with Felicity, but that's not moving forward, but living in temporary denial. He came back to Star City and still has to deal with all that crap left behind there (Thea and Laurel, Diggle). 

 

And with him and Felicity? They could be happy for six months because they didn't have to deal with his past. It was a temporary escape, which meant the problems that they would have dealt with in Star City as a new couple were only on hold until they returned. Oliver's demons were only left behind in Star City for a little bit. And now, his insecurities, fears and traumas are back because now, life and death is involved once more. And now he's regressing and doing the same stuff as the last three seasons. But you know what's different? He's actually with Felicity as her boyfriend. He cannot keep doing this because Felicity is right, in a way; in the original timeline, she says there needs to be trust built. I don't blame her for being fed up, especially with their changed relationship. I do think she's in her right to break up with him because he can't keep doing this.

 

But here's what I think: Oliver's not a dumb guy, at least not when it comes to this. And by this, I mean the secrets and the lying. Realistically, he's not resetting and forgetting about all the lies and secrets that have backfired on him. He knows what happens when he lies, when he secret keeps, when he tries to control his relationships. I know he doesn't want to go through this heartbreak once again. I know he's afraid of losing Felicity, especially when he knows it will be by his hand. He puts the blame on himself, he assumes the worst and then it happens. He creates his own demise. Oliver's the type of guy who feels way too much (....contrary to what Felicity and Diggle said about him last season and this season). But now he's with Felicity. He's going to feel the consequences harder than ever when she does break up with him. And you know what? This would cause some sort of snap, some sort of realization into Oliver that should tell him that what he's doing is not working. He needs to try something else. He needs to *gasp* be someone else. But this relationship should resonate something in him and he should do things differently once he realizes the consequences of pissing off your girlfriend who you plan to propose to.

 

And you know what Felicity should do? She should quit the team, and for a good long while that's more than an episode like the last time. Or the team could kick Oliver off, since now they're a 'team' and a 'democracy'. Personally, I don't want this to happen, but I think Oliver and Felicity needs space. Actually, no. I'd rather have them work it out, but I know it's better since Felicity has dealt with this Oliver too many times.

 

I don't think Felicity should be surprised, though. She knows how he is; she shouldn't be surprised when he reverts. He can't change that quickly, no matter how much she's helped. I think she's helped him heal a little bit, but obviously he needs more than her.  I'd love for Felicity to just hit Oliver and punish him, but not break up with him. She obviously deserves more than Oliver starting his lies and secret keeping again, but his actions are a result of his PTSD, well at least a little bit. It's not that he shouldn't pay, but he does pay an awful lot and I think the consequences need to change as well. People get mad at Oliver, dump him and then he comes grovelling back/something happens that has him save them and then all is forgiven after a talk. I think something needs to change here too. Both sides need to figure out a way of dealing with this. Oliver can't change on his own; he's tried and it isn't working. I don't think Oliver intentionally means to be this guy, but he's been tortured mentally and physically, kidnapped, almost killed, and turned into a killer. I don't know how he hasn't gotten any sort of psychiatric help in the last four years. 

 

So, yes. Since Oliver has now experienced his first serious relationship, Felicity breaking up with Oliver because of his lies should actually change him. He's seen what real happiness feels like. He's actually let someone into his life for the first time in years. I doubt he wants to give that up, hence why he's keeping the secret in the first place. The last thing he wants is Felicity to dump him, and for people to get hurt because he knows losing her would crush him...yet he'll lose her anyway if he doesn't say anything. It's a lose-lose, regardless at this point. At least, in his mind it is. In reality, she'd be happier if he told her upfront. His battle is more in his mind this time, and he really needs to heal more before he gets back together with Felicity. He's definitely not being manipulative on purpose; it's just that he's thinking both about his happiness, people's lives and he's afraid of going back to the almost soulless guy that he used to be without Felicity in his life. He doesn't even realize how to be in a functioning, at least semi-healthy relationship but he's gotten a taste of what that could be like. 

 

It sucks for him, it sucks for Felicity, and it sucks for everyone around them that has to be around them. So I want Felicity to still be there for Oliver, but I also need Oliver to get proper help before he gets more serious with Felicity.

 

I know the writing won't go there, but the characters should. 

[dtissagirl]

I agree with all of what you're saying. I just don't find any of it appealing to watch. Nor entertaining. More like mind-numbingly boring with a side of exhausting.

[wonderwall]

Damn @Lady Calypso, well put. 

 

@Dtissagirl, I'm honestly going the "forget everything that happened and fast forward through the fallout and get back to the normal IN CHARACTER Oliver/Felicity scenes" route. This season I'm here for Felicity and Diggle. I'm not going to miss that. 

[theacostov]

That was a really interesting read @LadyCalypso. You might have made me sympathise with oliver just a little bit (still mad). I think you've made really great points about how Oliver can grow and learn from this, but for me it kind of comes down to how can Felicity trust him again? With Diggle, Oliver took a "bullet" for him which helped Dig get passed his trust issues, that his partner had his back. How can felicity go on to have a relationship with him without wondering what is he keeping from her all the time? This isn't something that has happened once in the past and he's not bringing up, he's going to be continuously lying to her every time he goes to CC. I just can't see how they're going to move passed this without feeling like Felicity is kind of a fool/doormat.

[AyChihuahua]

 

You know, maybe I have too much faith right now, but realistically, if Oliver and Felicity were real people (or if more competent writers/showrunners were writing the show), I think this would ultimately be the thing to get Oliver to actually start maturing, and for real.

The problem is that he did it AGAIN.  After all that LOA crap, which was really bad.  I think people tend to pretend episodes and moments they didn't like didn't happen, but, I mean, they did.  He did all this lying/manipulating/not trusting crap just like six months ago.  And I agree this one MIGHT actually get him in gear...but I thought the LAST one would get him in gear.  More importantly, why should Felicity put up with it?  Her job isn't to fix him, or even to wait yet another season while he fixes himself.  He completely broke her trust in him, and it's going to get worse.  This isn't a spoiler, but LBR, he's going to keep lying to her and visiting the kid, piling lies on lies on lies.  So yeah, at the end of all this maybe he'll make a real change (although again, I thought he HAD made a real change), but I just don't see why she should stay around to see whether THIS epiphany that lying and manipulating people he claims to love is wrong actually sticks.  And I really don't see why she should believe that it will.

[jay741982]

I think I'm into payback too. Dump him, revoke his access to every building she owns/leases, which includes the campaign offices, the Arrow bunker, Palmer Tech, and maybe the loft if rent is on her; lift all funds going into his mayoral campaign and superheroing,. And then opening auditions for a replacement Green Arrow.

She's the superhero whisperer anyway, I bet she finds a replacement in no time. She has the specs and the means to. And the motivation.

I vote Lyla.

I totally agree with you. But what infuriates me about this BS is there are viewers giving him a pass and harping on Felicitys reaction from the fight. Acting like last season with how much he lied and kept crap from her didn't happen!! If Felicity dumped his ass and did what you suggest we would be hearing "that Bitch he don't deserve that" SMH its fucking infuriating that are people putting it on her. I saw some genuis who wants her gone cause how dare she get pissed off at Oliver keep stuff from her which dates back to last season which this genuis and others convintely forget

[wonderwall]

I have a question... Did Oliver actually ever /learn/ not to keep secrets? Like everyone said, he makes the same mistakes over and over again so obviously he didn't learn... Maybe this time he will? Because now he knows what happiness is like and his lies will take that away from him. Maybe finally he will learn? Hopefully? IDK I really hope that's the case. 

[Guest]

Oh, this is definitely last chance saloon for Oliver and his lies. And now that I'm pretty chill about things I'm semi-hopeful that he'll learn this time around. Because last season he lied and he still got the girl in the end and however much I enjoyed O/F going into the sunset, it felt like Oliver was getting rewarded for something he didn't really earn? I just feel like he got away with his lies pretty easily where Felicity was concerned (Diggle is another story). 

 

But I think the stakes will be bigger this time. Now he's had months of blissful happiness and knows what it's like to live in peace and just being content. He's looked to the future with Felicity more than he's ever done. He has hope and he's making plans. So when Felicity breaks up with him for lying to her (and she totally will), he'll know exactly what he's going to lose. He's going to be devastated. Hopefully this will offer him some time for introspection and to maybe learn that he can't just fall back into lying so easily. 

[Lady Calypso]

The problem is that he did it AGAIN.  After all that LOA crap, which was really bad.  I think people tend to pretend episodes and moments they didn't like didn't happen, but, I mean, they did.  He did all this lying/manipulating/not trusting crap just like six months ago.  And I agree this one MIGHT actually get him in gear...but I thought the LAST one would get him in gear.  More importantly, why should Felicity put up with it?  Her job isn't to fix him, or even to wait yet another season while he fixes himself.  He completely broke her trust in him, and it's going to get worse.  This isn't a spoiler, but LBR, he's going to keep lying to her and visiting the kid, piling lies on lies on lies.  So yeah, at the end of all this maybe he'll make a real change (although again, I thought he HAD made a real change), but I just don't see why she should stay around to see whether THIS epiphany that lying and manipulating people he claims to love is wrong actually sticks.  And I really don't see why she should believe that it will.

 

I know, at the last thing I meant to imply was that Felicity needs to fix him and wait for him. I knew the last one wouldn't work because this isn't a Disney love story in which the girl can change the guy and everyone lives happily ever after. Hell, I even knew the driving into the sunset was just a mere fantasy that he got to live out. I'm glad he got his happiness, I really am. But this show was never going to let him be the good, honest guy who got to be happy for the whole season. I knew that it was only a matter of time before he'd mess things up. I just think that I'm personally sick of the same thing happening over and over. Felicity already 'broke up' with him last season. Ok, it was in a different context, but she chose to leave their flirtation behind and move on. She got mad at him, and she does get mad at him, and I'm happy for her. I just want SOMETHING different to happen. For example, Thea not getting mad at Oliver at all when he told her he was the Arrow. We had Diggle get mad, we had Felicity want no part in it, we had Laurel and Quentin get furious, and we only saw Moira tell Oliver that she's known for a long time. Hell, we even had Tommy have a negative reaction. But Thea's? Surprisingly refreshing and new. That's what I like out of this show, when they surprise me with honesty and positivity. 

 

It's the fact that I know Felicity won't stay mad at Oliver for long. She won't quit the team for long, so they're just going to end up working together soon after their breakup. They'll probably get back together by the end of the season, or be on friends terms again. Not that I want to see them be fractured for the whole season, because I like their dynamic still. Oliver needs to change for sure, but he cannot change on his own. It's a cycle that I am aware will keep on repeating, UNLESS there is something to break it, like therapy or something. It also can't be an 'eye for an eye' thing. Either the death coming up, or Felicity lying to him about something just as big. They both need to work this whole thing out, but it is Oliver's healing process that needs to be the motivation, nothing else. There's nothing wrong with their relationship, or even with Felicity. It's not even directly with Oliver. It's his past and how that's impacted him. Hell, maybe he can never be truly healed because he's been through more than most have been through in one lifetime.

 

However, I remain hopeful because Oliver is with Felicity, which is something new. Maybe this something new factor will be the thing to help him not continue on this cycle, because he finally has someone he romantically loves. 

[AyChihuahua]

I have a question... Did Oliver actually ever /learn/ not to keep secrets? Like everyone said, he makes the same mistakes over and over again so obviously he didn't learn... Maybe this time he will? Because now he knows what happiness is like and his lies will take that away from him. Maybe finally he will learn? Hopefully? IDK I really hope that's the case. 

How could we possibly tell?  Supposedly he did when his LOA plan sucked ass last season but the team together rocked it.  But he's such a good liar, he probably lies about having learned not to lie.  Who'd know?

It's the fact that I know Felicity won't stay mad at Oliver for long. She won't quit the team for long, so they're just going to end up working together soon after their breakup. They'll probably get back together by the end of the season, or be on friends terms again.

In the show, I'm sure they'll get back together.  In the show, she'll probably (somehow, I really don't know how) trust him again.  But how can I, as a viewer, suspend disbelief that this time it will STICK, and that she shouldn't stay mad at him forever?  How can I watch them build trust again and not think "Here we go again...now why is she falling for this crap again?"  The writers, IMO, went to this well one too many times.  I'll NEVER feel that she should trust him, so when she does, I'm going to think she's a dumb doormat.  And I don't believe there is anything they can do to change that.  

 

Re the repetitiveness of them breaking up again, I agree.  It is repetitive.  I don't think it's stupid, because I think he deserves to be dumped.  But I don't get why people think that because it's repetitive they won't do it.  That's their favorite thing to do.  There's very nearly zero chance that she doesn't dump him.  They'll be all angsty and she'll be angry and he'll make moony eyes.  JUST LIKE LAST SEASON.  It will by definition be shorter, because they're still together in 4.08, but that's it.  This is basically a total repeat of the story beats from last year.   

 

Heck, at this point I think Thea's not out for the grave.  My main reason is that they did that storyline last year.  But they LOVE to repeat storylines.  

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

I totally agree with you. But what infuriates me about this BS is there are viewers giving him a pass and harping on Felicitys reaction from the fight. Acting like last season with how much he lied and kept crap from her didn't happen!! If Felicity dumped his ass and did what you suggest we would be hearing "that Bitch he don't deserve that" SMH its fucking infuriating that are people putting it on her. I saw some genuis who wants her gone cause how dare she get pissed off at Oliver keep stuff from her which dates back to last season which this genuis and others convintely forget

I understand the urge of responding because SOMEBODY IS WRONG ON THE INTERNETS, but do any of these people saying these things have any kind of direct influence with the network, studio, or showrunners? I'm assuming no, so who cares what randos think? And we're not supposed to be talking about randos anyway.

,

[statsgirl]

I'm not worried that Oliver and Felicity are endgame (as of this moment) because these people know what side their bread is buttered on.  However I am worried that they are going to make the next few episodes unpleasant to watch, and even more that they are going to keep doing this year after year.

 

When Felicity finds out, because of course she will, even if she leaves Oliver (it's Thea's loft), I don't see her leaving Team Arrow. She was the one who worked with them last summer when Oliver ran away, and they have been at pains to say that Team Arrow is now a democracy.But

 

But given how Felicity acts when she's angry, those are going to be some very uncomfortable scenes. Especially for me.

[jay741982]

I'm not worried that Oliver and Felicity are endgame (as of this moment) because these people know what side their bread is buttered on.  However I am worried that they are going to make the next few episodes unpleasant to watch, and even more that they are going to keep doing this year after year.

 

When Felicity finds out, because of course she will, even if she leaves Oliver (it's Thea's loft), I don't see her leaving Team Arrow. She was the one who worked with them last summer when Oliver ran away, and they have been at pains to say that Team Arrow is now a democracy.But

 

But given how Felicity acts when she's angry, those are going to be some very uncomfortable scenes. Especially for me.

Me too cause the girl gets blasted for rightful anger and she can't win

[Tazmania]

He's basically going to be Uncle Ollie, I guess.  And yeah, I think he's going to visit the kid (Baby Mama, I ain't calling her by her name bc she doesn't deserve that respect), is in more episodes.  

 

Baby mama is that random chick Ollie had once had unprotected sex while he was cheating on Laurel, she does not deserve a name. Baby mama was thirsty hoe who had unprotected sex with someone's boy friend in the past and a mean as fuck manipulator in the present who is making moronic demands on a person just because she is in a position to ask it of him. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not worried that Oliver and Felicity are endgame (as of this moment) because these people know what side their bread is buttered on.  However I am worried that they are going to make the next few episodes unpleasant to watch, and even more that they are going to keep doing this year after year.

 

When Felicity finds out, because of course she will, even if she leaves Oliver (it's Thea's loft), I don't see her leaving Team Arrow. She was the one who worked with them last summer when Oliver ran away, and they have been at pains to say that Team Arrow is now a democracy.But

 

But given how Felicity acts when she's angry, those are going to be some very uncomfortable scenes. Especially for me.

She's definitely stuck with Team Arrow through a lot, but this is different.  They've been together, they'll have been 

engaged.

 That is pretty serious.  If nothing else I bet she takes a break while Curtis takes over.

 

I am totally looking forward to her anger.  I've never felt he deserved it more.  And I was the one who was unhappy with her in 4.06...because then he didn't deserve it.  Now I say blast away, Felicity, blast away.

[Tazmania]

She's definitely stuck with Team Arrow through a lot, but this is different.  They've been together, they'll have been 

engaged.

 That is pretty serious.  If nothing else I bet she takes a break while Curtis takes over.

 

I am totally looking forward to her anger.  I've never felt he deserved it more.  And I was the one who was unhappy with her in 4.06...because then he didn't deserve it.  Now I say blast away, Felicity, blast away.

 

If Felicity does end up breaking up with Oliver because of his lying ways, chances are that both John Diggle and Laurel Lance will side with Felicity for obvious reasons. John Diggle hated Oliver keeping secrets in S3 and froze him out till Oliver took a bullet for him. This would be like a deja vu for him, plus he used to be very protective of Felicity ... at least back in season 2. Laurel too would side with her because if there is one person in the world who can empathize with Felicity about lying boyfriends, it is Laurel. 

 

If this season has established anything, it is that Thea Queen does not give two fucks about her brother and takes most of her social/tactical cues from John Diggle & Laurel Lance, as they would be against him for being a douche, chances are that Thea will also show her middle finger to Oliver. The only place for Oliver to run to is either a sofa in Joe West/Barry Allen's weird dad/son bachelor pad, Rip Hunter's time machine or Lian Yu. Going by his track record and production team's obvious affection of that particular British Columbia national park, he will end up in Lian Yu. 

[jay741982]

With these fuckwad writers they will probably have Dig side with Oliver and Felicity look like the bad one SMH

[AyChihuahua]

So, I think this is one of the original story points for Laurel and Oliver.  Put Laurel in as Oliver's OTL, and none of the contrivance is necessary.  She'd be reasonably pissed and put their relationship on hold because he cheated on her all those years ago.  Then she'd eventually get over it, just in time for a 5th season wedding, because she'd realize that Oliver isn't that guy anymore.  No lying, no weird-ass crazy Baby Mama conditions, etc.  The split would be understandable and yet could be overcome with just the right amount of angst.  So the problem is shoehorning Felicity into that story point requires present-day shitty behavior from Oliver, because Felicity has no reason to be mad at him for what happened nine years ago.  But now it will require a LOT more forgiveness from Felicity, because to make her mad enough to dump him, they had to write him being a shit NOW, vs. just having been a shit THEN.  

 

They have GOT to stop shoehorning O/F into O/L story points.  

[Password]

The thing is, the lying and keeping secrets thing is very much pre-island Ollie. It goes deeper than compartmentalizing, post-island Oliver. The way they handle it will be really important because it's like a hurdle Oliver trips over EVERY TIME.

[kismet]

He is a dumbass, but I think he might've been shaken by Barry telling him that he and Felicity broke up over Oliver the reveal about the kid in the original timeline, so he's trying to keep that from happening. Still a dumbass, still makes terrible decisions, still never learns. Still stupid writing. But that's probably why.

I think she will break up with him after this little stunt, so then the timeline will be fixed again right? Maybe that was his masterplan... how can I ensure that FS will break up with me to mend the timeforce disturbance.

 

So I guess, I'm rooting for a break-up. I usually love time-related stories. But they just are horrible at writing them in the Flarrow universe. They are only used as got-to easy plot changers & ship baiters.

[kismet]

You know, maybe I have too much faith right now, but realistically, if Oliver and Felicity were real people (or if more competent writers/showrunners were writing the show), I think this would ultimately be the thing to get Oliver to actually start maturing, and for real.

...

I know the writing won't go there, but the characters should. 

Thanks!! That was a really long post, but so worth it. I agree with a lot of what you said. It's also helping me regain my mental chill when it comes to OQ. I needed that. Here's hoping the writing touches at least on some of those ideas.

[AyChihuahua]

I think she will break up with him after this little stunt, so then the timeline will be fixed again right? Maybe that was his masterplan... how can I ensure that FS will break up with me to mend the timeforce disturbance.

 

So I guess, I'm rooting for a break-up. I usually love time-related stories. But they just are horrible at writing them in the Flarrow universe. They are only used as got-to easy plot changers & ship baiters.

The breakup was only an issue BEFORE the big battle, because apparently Oliver and/or Barry thought it distracted Oliver and caused them to lose (which is pretty arguable).  There is absolutely nothing in-show that supports that Felicity finding out now will somehow cause thousands of people to spontaneously combust. 

[NumberCruncher]

It just makes me laugh that the whole time travel thing wouldn't be an issue on Arrow had Oliver just told Felicity the truth and sworn her to secrecy. Then he wouldn't have been all twisted and distraught during the fight that got everyone killed. Unnecessary lying for the sake of plot screwed the show over in a multitude of ways.

[calliope1975]

I would have rather he told Felicity, then Baby Mama finds out and does whatever completely unrealistic thing she would have done had he flat out said he wasn't going to keep the secret. You still have the (stupid and unnecessary) drama. But I think this was always about putting a wedge between Felicity and Oliver. For what reason? I can only come up with hack writing and a dearth of creativity since I can come up with a dozen ideas for conflict between Olicity without lying being involved.

[NumberCruncher]

From the Oliver Queen thread:

 

But then there's a hilarious external factor that goes in direct opposite to the need for this kind of storyline for Oliver: whatever blackhole-y thing that happens when Oliver and Felicity are at odds with each other, that ends up sucking the joy out of the show completely, and that these writers really really REALLY don't know how to circumvent.

This is the underlying problem with the O/F relationship in a nutshell. The characters (and the actors) work so well together--almost too well--that when they throw whatever artificial nonsense angst into the mix the audience struggles with it because even when they're supposed to be at odds, it feels hollow and unbelievable to the audience. Ironically, I think the opposite is true with O/L and SA/KC...their friendly scenes come off as incredibly awkward and their fights are the only time they work well on screen, IMO. That all being the case, I wonder why TPTB don't recognize this or at least take lessons from how the audience and the press reacted to just how much the angsty O/F scenes didn't work last season and try a different approach in how to write them this season.

I've long said that reason people liked O/F so much back in S1 and S2 was because their normalcy and organic interactions really resonated with the audience. They didn't need high drama to be interesting because the characters by themselves were plenty interesting. Working together they were even better. When they finally did have them side by side in every way this season, even a lot of the skeptics were forced to admit it just worked. I don't think I saw a review that even hinted they were in the vicinity of boring, so to have the showrunners jump the gun with this garbage thinking it's keeping them interesting is such a head scratcher.

Edited December 4, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[calliope1975]

I just don't understand how professional writers and show runners don't understand that in these fantastical type genre shows, you need something grounded to go along with people dressing up in costumes. It makes the ridiculous believable. I can deal with shape shifting Dracula fanboys on Supernatural because of the very real brotherly bond between Sam and Dean. I can believe that Luke Cage is unbreakable and Jessica Jones can fly (badly) because one is dealing with PTSD in a believable way and the other is working through the grief over his wife. I can buy that Matt Murdock, a blind man, is an amazing and effective fighter because he has to struggle with reconciling his religious upbringing with the need to hurt some to help many. 

 

Give me something to work with, Arrow. I can't defend you when you won't help yourself.