Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[BkWurm1]

I agree that Ollie Queen didn't know what real love was. He probably saw himself as in love with Laurel. He cared about her, and probably was his only serious girlfriend. He kept going back to her after cheating. He also bonded with Sara in the ensuing years that made what he felt for her more than friendship. He loved them but, in love, just a no for Sara and a not in any kind of healthy or adult way with Laurel. But Shado.

I think he could have fallen in love with Shadow if he'd continued to mature and grow up with her influence and affection. I don't think he had time to fall in love with Shado but but she was awesome enough that I would have been surprised if he hadn't if they'd started alive and stuck on the island together. But even had she lived, Waller would have still been there or had they been rescued instead, in the real world, I don't think what they had on the island would have lasted.

[kismet]

I think Shado was taken away too soon for anyone of us, including OQ & Shado to figure out if what they had had potential for anything more than what it was. I do think she was a really good influence on him. I do think he cared deeply for her. But I never really saw it as an actual relationship. A friendship & a partnership. But I think he probably had similar level & intensity of feelings for Slade, minus the physical attraction he felt towards Shado. And she was awesome, there is not even a question about that.

[dtissagirl]

I do agree with you that giving him past love interests undermines what the show was trying to sell in season 1, but then again, I never bought into O/L from the minute they showed Oliver and Sara rolling around in bed.

 

This is the crux of the matter for me. I didn't ever buy that O/L was a great love story. So for me, everything they added to the flashbacks in S2-S3 that completely undermined O/L is a blessing. It validates my reality as a viewer -- that I never ever, not for one second, ever bought O/L as a viable romantic pairing.

 

And I think it makes sense from a storytelling standpoint too. It's crystal clear to me that they don't write the flashbacks to align with just the pilot episode. I don't think that was ever the plan. They were always banking on Oliver doing/learning stuff in the flashbacks that would provide background fodder for 5-6 years of present time story.

 

And then they hit a wall with O/L. And they made adjustments to their present time plan. But the moment they decided that storyline failed, and as a result changed the entire course of the present time hero's journey, they had to also start writing the flashbacks to properly reflect that failure. Oliver couldn't pine for Laurel anymore, because the failure is the driving force of the backstory now. And that's what they've been writing post-S1.

[morakot]

My fanwank is that Dinah taught at the prep school Ollie and Tommy went to, so that her daughters could go there. As I understand, Laurel and the boys were in the same class (they went to Iron Heights together, didn't they?), and she made the most of her time getting to know the billionaires. I assume Sarah got to know Oliie and Tommy through Laurel (would they have visited the Lance house?) and developed the crush on Ollie then. I see Laurel's tattling on Sarah as much about her being underage as being jealous of her sister with Ollie -- not unlike Tommy's reminder to Thea that his party was not for her. I don't necessarily see the fact that Laurel dating Ollie before Sarah could get out of being grounded as a consequence of the grounding -- it was just something that happened.

 

Laurel did well enough out of the school and out of college that she went to Stanford for her Law degree -- did she not date anyone there?  I'm assuming from her behavior in the restaurant with Tommy that she was used to being seated first, and not having to wait. Maybe at Stanford, she also dated billionaires...

 

As for her status as Ollie's girlfriend -- when she stayed overnight in Ollie's room just before he headed off on the The Gambit, she was embarrassed to be caught by Moira in the morning. If she had been with him since high school, and this is after college, is this really the first time she's stayed overnight? (And, Ollie doesn't have his own bathroom?) If they're at a stage in their relationship when she feels they should be living together, you'd think his family would be aware of the relationship status...

[apinknightmare]

I wish we could get some clarification on their relationship timeline. Laurel went to Stanford while Oliver went to and was kicked out...what, four schools? Were they all in the vicinity of Stanford? But she'd lived in Starling (didn't Oliver mention that her place hadn't changed much over the years, like he'd been there before? Did she have a roommate then? Is Starling within commuting distance of Stanford?) If Sara knew 10 people he'd slept with, and there were pap pictures of him drunkenly hanging on some other chick, when exactly were they together and stable for long enough for Laurel to think they should move in together? Were they constantly on and off, or were all of those women he slept with women he slept with while he was with Laurel? I know at least one of them was, but what about the others? 

 

No snark - I just honestly don't know how anyone ever bought them as a legit love story. 

[AyChihuahua]

She wasn't in law school yet.  She was studying for the LSAT in the flashback scene in which she asks for a bottle opener.  (Your general point stands, though.)

[tennisgurl]

Olicity! Being adorable! And flirty! And snuggles! So much cute!

 

I will not stand for them to get separated! I will not allow it! 

[statsgirl]

Laurel probably went to Starling University (is it now going to be renamed Star University?) for her undergrad because we saw her with Oliver and later at the Lance home when Sara came home for the long weekend from another university.  That would enable her to be in a relationship with Oliver while he went to various other colleges and had affairs with other women.

 

Stanford would have been law school.

 

My fanwank is that Dinah taught at the prep school Ollie and Tommy went to, so that her daughters could go there. As I understand, Laurel and the boys were in the same class (they went to Iron Heights together, didn't they?), and she made the most of her time getting to know the billionaires. I assume Sarah got to know Oliie and Tommy through Laurel (would they have visited the Lance house?) and developed the crush on Ollie then. I see Laurel's tattling on Sarah as much about her being underage as being jealous of her sister with Ollie -- not unlike Tommy's reminder to Thea that his party was not for her.

That's how I explained it too -- I know someone with a PhD who taught in a prep school in exchange for reduced tuition for her children.  Laurel might have been there on a scholarship but not Sara.   It makes sense that Laurel was in Oliver's class and even before she started dating him, she saw him as hers and that's why she shut Sara out.

when she stayed overnight in Ollie's room just before he headed off on the The Gambit, she was embarrassed to be caught by Moira in the morning. If she had been with him since high school, and this is after college, is this really the first time she's stayed overnight? (And, Ollie doesn't have his own bathroom?)

They were still pretty young (22) so I can see that Moira might have frowned on overnight stays.  Maybe their other overnights were either when Oliver's parents were away or in his dorm rooms at the various colleges.

 

The continuity problem is that when Oliver first returns and sees Laurel's apartment, he comments that she hasn't moved since before the boat went down. If she had her own apartment, why didn't they spend nights there?

 

More bizarre is the idea that Oliver doesn't have his own en suite bathroom. Did you see the size of that room????

[apinknightmare]

More bizarre is the idea that Oliver doesn't have his own en suite bathroom. Did you see the size of that room????

 

I'm pretty sure he does - didn't he walk out of it and into his room wearing a towel after a shower so he could stare broodingly at his scars in the mirror? Or maybe he was just standing in the towel and we didn't see him come out of the bathroom, IDK.

[statsgirl]

Did Moira catch Laurel when she snuck out into the hallway to use the bathroom?  Although maybe since it's in a deleted scene, it doesn't count.

[morakot]

I'm not sure why else Laurel was running around the upstairs hallway dressed only in a man's shirt if she wasn't looking for the bathroom. 

[BkWurm1]

Maybe the Luthor, er um, the Queen Manor was just old and didn't have attached baths. 

[looptab]

Why do you think Oliver hid the ring at the end of the episode? The EPs said it was a way to show that things changed from when they were in Ivy Town, but do you think changed as in:

a) "We're back to a dangerous life again, maybe it's not the right time yet."

b) "She lied to me about wanting to come back, maybe we are not on the same page as I thought, it's not the right time yet."

c) "Diggle said I'm not capable of love, maybe he is right, I'm a monster and shouldn't propose to her." ?

 

 These are the motivations that seem plausible to me. Do you guys have any other? Thoughts?

[apinknightmare]

Why do you think Oliver hid the ring at the end of the episode?

 

He said he didn't want to go back to Starling, that he knew the darkness was waiting for him there, and he didn't want to be that guy anymore. The life they were living where he was sure about marrying Felicity isn't the life that they're living anymore. Last year when he had this (kinda stupid) identity question, he decided he wanted to be Oliver Queen. If he's gonna be the Green Arrow, I'm sure he wants to figure out how that's gonna work (if it's gonna work) before he and Felicity commit to each other and settle down. 

 

Yay growth that they're actually still together and living together, and he didn't break it off the second they left suburbia!

[looptab]

Right? For a moment I dreaded he would start with the whole "So, I'm vigilanting again, we'll revisit this relationship at a time do be determined". Glad they didn't, phew.

 

BTW, I agree with your post. I'm leaning also towards this being the reasoning behind his decision, but with this writers, you never know. Also, I saw some reviewers or commenter saying it was because of my option "b",(can't remember where, sorry) and the latest Lord Mesa's art made me consider that Diggle's words may have had some effect too. MOstly, I think it's a combination of the three options I wrote above.

Edited October 9, 2015 by looptab

[quarks]

I thought it was mostly a. Felicity made it pretty clear that she wanted the vigilante/saving people life (thank you, writers/showrunners, for finally admitting that season two point again and abandoning one of my least favorite parts of season three, and specifically "Sara."). Oliver's agreed to do the vigilante/saving people life and admitted that yes, he liked having a purpose in his life again, but he also told Thea, and I think this is absolutely true, that he was more than happy to give it up. At the same time, he obviously wants Felicity to be happy, and if that means vigilantes, then he wants her to do that. So I thought he was waiting on the proposal until he could feel sure that he was able to do that with her, and not leave her to vigilantism while he headed back to slow cooking eggs.

 

It's also possible that he was reacting a bit to b - not so much the lying, but that he thought they were 100% together, and they weren't, and he wants to be 100% together before he asks her about marriage again, instead of the 95% together that they seemed to be. I did like that he immediately got that she was bored with suburbs, and didn't hold that against her (after all, he was the one who introduced her to the alternative) and that she immediately got that what he needed to know was that yes, she really did love him. It was a nice reassurance on both sides. Not as well done as the exchange about Bali, but nice.

[bijoux]

I thought it was mostly a. Felicity made it pretty clear that she wanted the vigilante/saving people life (thank you, writers/showrunners, for finally admitting that season two point again and abandoning one of my least favorite parts of season three, and specifically "Sara."). Oliver's agreed to do the vigilante/saving people life and admitted that yes, he liked having a purpose in his life again, but he also told Thea, and I think this is absolutely true, that he was more than happy to give it up. At the same time, he obviously wants Felicity to be happy, and if that means vigilantes, then he wants her to do that. So I thought he was waiting on the proposal until he could feel sure that he was able to do that with her, and not leave her to vigilantism while he headed back to slow cooking eggs.

 

It's also possible that he was reacting a bit to b - not so much the lying, but that he thought they were 100% together, and they weren't, and he wants to be 100% together before he asks her about marriage again, instead of the 95% together that they seemed to be. I did like that he immediately got that she was bored with suburbs, and didn't hold that against her (after all, he was the one who introduced her to the alternative) and that she immediately got that what he needed to know was that yes, she really did love him. It was a nice reassurance on both sides. Not as well done as the exchange about Bali, but nice.

I agree with all your points. Except that I wouldn't say the reassuring wasn't done as well as Bali. I just think those two exchanges were tonally different. Bali was the height of hilarity and will never not be funny, while the reassurance bit was just calmer. And I'm really more than fine with that being calm and steady because this is what they've been like when it comes to telling one they love each other. It's just a fact that they are secure in and they present it in such a way.

Edited October 9, 2015 by bijoux

[Carrie Ann]

I actually found her response to that point unsatisfying. He says that he's upset that while he was 100% with her while they were away, part of her was still back here, and she says that she loves every moment she's with him no matter where they are. Okay, but that's not the question at hand. Maybe the show sees that as wrapped up, but it didn't really feel answered to me. If I were Oliver, that would rattle me. We'll see if that continues to be a theme, but if not, then the line they wrote for Felicity was just rushed and not very well-considered.

[bijoux]

I actually found her response to that point unsatisfying. He says that he's upset that while he was 100% with her while they were away, part of her was still back here, and she says that she loves every moment she's with him no matter where they are. Okay, but that's not the question at hand. Maybe the show sees that as wrapped up, but it didn't really feel answered to me. If I were Oliver, that would rattle me. We'll see if that continues to be a theme, but if not, then the line they wrote for Felicity was just rushed and not very well-considered.

These are the same people who wrote Felicity's observation about the tattoo like it was the first time she's noticed he had it removed so I'm betting on the latter.

[apinknightmare]

I wonder why they didn't just have her ask if he regretted having that tattoo removed? He could've still replied that he didn't need it anymore, and that way it wouldn't have seemed like Felicity had absolutely no observational skills.

[looptab]

I actually found her response to that point unsatisfying. He says that he's upset that while he was 100% with her while they were away, part of her was still back here, and she says that she loves every moment she's with him no matter where they are. Okay, but that's not the question at hand. Maybe the show sees that as wrapped up, but it didn't really feel answered to me. If I were Oliver, that would rattle me. We'll see if that continues to be a theme, but if not, then the line they wrote for Felicity was just rushed and not very well-considered.

Me too. I thought maybe the scene went longer and parts were cut? IDK, but her answer wasn't really what I expected in response to what he was saying. But I'm ok giving it quarks' explanation, if they leave it at that.

 

WRT the tattoo, I interpreted that line as Felicity missing the dragon. 

[Guest]

I actually found her response to that point unsatisfying. He says that he's upset that while he was 100% with her while they were away, part of her was still back here, and she says that she loves every moment she's with him no matter where they are. Okay, but that's not the question at hand. Maybe the show sees that as wrapped up, but it didn't really feel answered to me. If I were Oliver, that would rattle me. We'll see if that continues to be a theme, but if not, then the line they wrote for Felicity was just rushed and not very well-considered.

 

I'd agree with that, to an extent, except I don't think it was meant to seem unanswered. I think that was a consequence of fitting so much in the episode. The whole moment needed time to settle/room to breathe in a way but they jumped straight from that to an alert on Felicity's computer and that was that. Moment was done. Until we see more episodes, I can't really tell if Oliver was rattled by the whole thing. 

 

I don't think Oliver not proposing was a big thing. The life he had been planning is not only no more but one Felicity didn't really want, even though she was more than willing to go back to it. I can see that putting the whole thing on pause until they've talked more or have better balance because I kind of feel like Oliver will slowly realize that this is the life he wants too but this time he wants it all. 

[KenyaJ]

BTW, I agree with your post. I'm leaning also towards this being the reasoning behind his decision, but with this writers, you never know. Also, I saw some reviewers or commenter saying it was because of my option "b",(can't remember where, sorry) and the latest Lord Mesa's art made me consider that Diggle's words may have had some effect too. MOstly, I think it's a combination of the three options I wrote above.

 

I didn't interpret Lord Mesa's drawing as Oliver taking what Diggle said to heart. I took it as a repudiation of what Diggle said. Diggle said Oliver doesn't trust or love, and yet Oliver was planning to propose to the person he trusts and loves more than anyone.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, that's how I took it, too. Especially since the ring was lighting up his face, and he seemed happy.

[looptab]

Oh, I didn't explain myself well. I meant that seeing the drawing, made me think "What if what Diggle said..", not that that was what it suggested. It's just that it didn't cross my mind until I saw the proposal idea next to Diggle's words.

[KenyaJ]

Oh, I didn't explain myself well. I meant that seeing the drawing, made me think "What if what Diggle said..", not that that was what it suggested. It's just that it didn't cross my mind until I saw the proposal idea next to Diggle's words.

 

Ah, gotcha. I don't actually think Diggle's comments were on Oliver's mind when he "hid" the ring, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[kismet]

In one of the interviews MG gave after the episode, he talks about using the engagement ring to show where Oliver and Felicity's relationship was.  Putting the proposal on hold also was to show that there was a change.  I think the change specifically was Oliver thinking they were completely on the same page in regards to loving life in suburbia.  I believe Oliver when he says he's not mad she lied, but I do think he was hurt that what he thought about them being in the same place wasn't true and that's I think why the ring went away.  He's not less in love but all that absolute certainty and fearlessness about the future was shaken. 

I agree this is why I think the ring went away too. I don't think he's mad at FS for not telling him the whole truth, but he (& I) did take a step back when I knew that FS had been not telling the truth to OQ. Like I said in my episode post, its one thing for FS to keep things from RP - its a completely different other thing for her to keep this big secret from OQ. She wasn't feeling happy or fulfilled that is something that needs to be relayed to OQ if their relationship is to succeed she needs to be honest with him. He's never really lied to her about their relationship. In his previous relationships, he lied a lot to his GF. Meanwhile this is the 2nd time FS has kept something big when it comes to her romantic life and commitment to saving the city. He knows she has now kept big things from him twice.

 

Why do you think Oliver hid the ring at the end of the episode? The EPs said it was a way to show that things changed from when they were in Ivy Town, but do you think changed as in:

a) "We're back to a dangerous life again, maybe it's not the right time yet."

b) "She lied to me about wanting to come back, maybe we are not on the same page as I thought, it's not the right time yet."

c) "Diggle said I'm not capable of love, maybe he is right, I'm a monster and shouldn't propose to her." ?

 

 These are the motivations that seem plausible to me. Do you guys have any other? Thoughts?

I’m more inclined to say it was a lot of B, with maybe some A. I really think the life he was living in Ivy Town was the life he wanted to live. He found what he was looking for. It might have been a little boring but he was happy. I think now that they are back in SC and he is suiting up (a lot for FS) he wants to be sure that the life they are now leading is still the life that they want. He wants her to say YES to a life they both want. Not just a life he wanted and was happy in. Her happiness is important to him.

I loved how he handled her being bored and was not mad at her for it. But I think the fact that she was not 100% all in for the 5 months they were away was a big shocker for him. They both committed to being all in, and she just admitted to being partially not there. That would make me question some things.

 

I think he is hopelessly in love with her, so I don’t think it will be the end of the relationship. In a matter of time, I believe he will realize that he can be happy in a hybrid of his old & new life. But it was an enlightening moment for him - 1. That she was not all in and 2. That he didn’t notice.

[Primal Slayer]

I see it as he never really thought of how he would handle his relationship if he suited up again. He was kind of living in a dream and thought he was done fighting, and he was able to retire but of course no dream lasts forever.

[Genki]

Interesting discussion, I think Oliver put the engagement on pause for these reasons.

 

Firstly I think in Oliver's head there is a type of guy that Felicity deserves, and it's not the broody, dark, fighting to survive, self-sacrificing guys with PTSD from S1 - S3. In OQ mind she deserves a guy that will cook for her, support her, be happy with her. This guy, doesn't plan for death and doesn't bring danger to himself and loved ones, and most importantly does not loose pieces of himself to darkness in order to fight darkness.

 

When they are in Ivy Town, Oliver can be the guy that he thinks Felicity deserves. There are aspects of himself that he is ashamed of, parts he doesn't think that Felicity can possibly love, which makes him a big idiot because she does. In Ivy town those aspects of his personality does not need to come forward.

 

Being back in Star(ling) City, I think he is worried about reverting back to S3 Oliver, and not being the guy Felicity deserves, especially if he also has to be the Arrow again. I will always think that Oliver saw himself as broken and dark and this held him back the most from having the relationship with Felicity. He knows as Ollie he was terrible boyfriend and, from what we've seen so far of his dating history, in show, is not so good and this relationship with Felicity is too important to Oliver to mess up. So I think he will now proceed much more cautiously

I guess we will see how the new flashback relationship plays out I suspect it will end badly and end up being another cautionary tale for Oliver

in his planning for the future for himself and Felicity.

 

While I think Oliver is a bit hurt and disappointed that Felicity was secretly helping Digg et el, I think putting the proposal on hold was about Oliver pressing pause until this new fight is over, and he can go back to being Oliver that Felicity deserves, but hopefully over the course of the season he will realise that the guy Felicity wants and deserves is both Oliver Queen and Oliver the Arrow.

 

Also I think Oliver was enjoying the 5 months away more than Felicity because this was his first break in 8 years, he was revelling in being a tourist and domesticity of travelling and living with his lady-love without constant fear for their lives and threats hanging over his head. This is why (In my head cannon) Felicity didn't tell Oliver about helping the Team and being bored by aspects of suburbia, because she knows he deserves some normal and peace for once.

[kismet]

Oh I understand why FS did it. Not sure I would have done the same thing, then again FS and I generally have different thought processes when it comes torelationships, so not surprised. I'm not mad about it or with her. But I feel like it was an appropriate & authentic time to take a pause on the ring.

When I imagined the proposal being interrupted, I thought he might be able to do it when they got back to SC, but after her secret reveal, I knew he couldn't do it. You can't propose to someone if they just told you the life you imagined with them was boring & they weren't happy. Especially if they went behind your back to do other things. If the secret had just been the suit or a one time assist it would have been one thing. But she seemed pretty much in constant contact. I hope they'll get back on the same page by winter break.

[BkWurm1]

This is why (In my head cannon) Felicity didn't tell Oliver about helping the Team and being bored by aspects of suburbia, because she knows he deserves some normal and peace for once.

 

She also mentioned that she was perfectly happy and on the same page as he was for the first couple months.  She reached a point where she was bored with the minutia of suburbia but it was what was making Oliver happy and by helping the team but keeping her hobby separate from their life, she wasn't pressuring him to give up the peace he'd found.  Oliver isn't great about finding that happy medium or balance in his life.  So far he's an all or nothing.  I think Felicity would have eventually told him what she was up to if he showed no signs of taking his head out of the slow cooker. 

 

It's not like Oliver didn't know that aspects of their life was infuriating to Felicity.  She was clutching his arm for support when the neighbors made her want to scream and he clasped her arm in restraint when she was going sarcastic on their guests.  He wasn't oblivious like the neighbors.  I think with Palmer Tech both of them had to know their time away was on borrowed time.  She was stalling on going to face that and he was fine with letting her because to go back to Star no longer ling City would mean facing reality and the mess left behind. 

 

So he had to know at some level that his suburban fantasy already was threatened. 

 

One thing I very much appreciated was how both of them were willing to do whatever it took to make the other happy.  If Oliver couldn't be happy in Star City, Felicity was not going to stay either.  And Oliver knew it was an option and that whether they stayed or not was his decision.  He knew she was happier to be home but he didn't stay just for her, she helped him accept that he missed parts of the life as well and her no pressure encouragement and belief let him believe he could do it and escape the darkness.   

 

I think her helping the team in secret under these very particular set of circumstances is less of a big deal than it could have been otherwise.  She wasn't endangering herself.  She wasn't taking mysterious trips.  She wasn't constantly absent or not participating in their life.  She was giving him the time he needed until they were needed.  I think her hiding it embarrassed him (that she was coddling him that way) and probably made himself feel a bit disappointed in himself ( that he hadn't caught on)  but her action wasn't a betrayal of them as a couple because it was part of what he loved about her.  Still, I think it rattled his sense of self-satisfied certainty.  And yet, I also think Oliver needed to have those five months with nothing vigilante related hanging over his head otherwise would he have ever been able to let go of the future and learn to be at peace with himself in the present? 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know, their food poisoning/Positano boat/Bali argument had him grinning like a fool, so I'm just not seeing a whole lot of doubt or concern on Oliver's part.  Maybe it will come up later, but he didn't seem particularly bothered to me.  I definitely don't think that's why he didn't propose.  It's just weird timing with moving back and starting up vigilante-ing again, so I see it a lot more as regaining equilibrium in new/old circumstances than anything at all serious.

[BkWurm1]

I don't know, their food poisoning/Positano boat/Bali argument had him grinning like a fool, so I'm just not seeing a whole lot of doubt or concern on Oliver's part.  Maybe it will come up later, but he didn't seem particularly bothered to me.  I definitely don't think that's why he didn't propose.  It's just weird timing with moving back and starting up vigilante-ing again, so I see it a lot more as regaining equilibrium in new/old circumstances than anything at all serious.

I watched that scene quite a few times and despite the light tone and the amusement, there was a suspicious sheen in his eyes and a lot of emotion in his voice.  I maintain that his love isn't shaken but his certainty of the future they were planning was. 

[Password]

*snort*

You guys make me worry far more on this board than I was watching the episode.

I think at the crux of things Oliver was worried Felicity wasn't completely into HIM and that's why she reassured him that regardless of where they were, she's super happy because he's with her. She kind of went past what he asked and answered what he meant.

Happy wife, happy life folks.

[BkWurm1]

I didn't mean to imply anything worrisome.  Just exploring the nuances. 

[dtissagirl]

I think at the crux of things Oliver was worried Felicity wasn't completely into HIM and that's why she reassured him that regardless of where they were, she's super happy because he's with her. She kind of went past what he asked and answered what he meant.

This is what I got too. Him worrying he's not enough, and, well. It's not that he isn't, but if Felicity wants more from life? That's all right. I mean, talk to him about it, and all, but I'm good with why they set it up like that, because I have to say: former playboy billionaire with feelings of inadequacy over a girl he stumbled into love with is actually my favorite kind of Oliver Queen. And... I'm pretty ecstatic Arrow is finally writing Oliver like my favorite Oliver.

[EmeraldArcher]

I had a niggling worry after he put the ring in the bowl, and my worry intensified after reading Guggie's comments.

Not only did Felicity lie to and hide things from him for months when he was trying to start over and fully commit to her, not only were they not on the same page about life goals and where they wanted to be, but she was being incredibly insensitive in the loft about not feeling bad about taking Thea's home because it's so amazing--that's the moment he slipped the ring from his pocket (where it could be handy for the right moment) and hid it. He then reminded her that his sister had been viciously attacked and left for dead pretty much in the spot where Felicity was crowing about living there.

I really love Felicity, but she was being thoughtless and insensitive. I also think her eager re-integration into their former life rattled Oliver, especially after Thea's glee about the rush her new violent life gave her. He had mentioned getting used to and enjoying running without being chased, and he was thriving in the safety and lightness of the suburban life.

I think Oliver's doubts aren't about who he is, what he wants, and if he can be both OQ and GA. I think he's starting to doubt who Felicity is. He loves her, but he just isn't sure anymore. Part of me can't blame him.

As long as they resolve it in a way that allows both characters to grow, this can be really interesting and complex in a satisfying way. Let him acknowledge that he fell in love with her because she's a remarkable woman and hero and it wasn't fair for him to expect her to suddenly want something completely different just because he did. Let her acknowledge that she's sometimes a little too cavalier about a dangerous, high-stakes life that has already cost him so much. This would make how they go from here to happily ever after feel earned.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm not gonna read too much into that scene, I think it's just bad exposition. The show wanted to establish that Felicity and Oliver were going to live in the loft and throw in the explanation of where Thea is and why. And the show is using Felicity once again to sell approval for something they know might be a little problematic; hence the reference to the loft as "amazing." I don't think Oliver found Felicity's reaction crass. After all, he was the one who joked about getting a rug (I actually yelled "Too soon!" at my TV at that). As for Oliver putting the ring in the dish (stupid hiding place but again they wanted to show quickly that Oliver is shelving the issue for now), I think it's less about what Felicity said and more that she's turned around and he can quickly do the deed. 

[apinknightmare]

IDK, nothing about Oliver hiding the ring worries me at all. And everything I got from what he said and the way he acted indicates he has issues with himself and his life in Starling City, not with her. 

 

I don't think she was being thoughtless and insensitive at all. He clearly had a dream of getting out of Starling and leading an idyllic life. She was with him on that, and gave it a trial run for herself, but soon found out it wasn't for her. Still, even though she was bored and she hated it, she tried to make it work—for him, because that's what he wanted—and to still have a piece of the life that she loved for herself without disturbing or displacing his dream. When he asked her about it, she was honest with him - life in the suburbs was boring for her (not life with him) and that she missed the purpose their mission gave her life. 

 

So, she came clean immediately - why would he be doubting who she is, when he specifically said and we have actually seen that he doesn't think he can be a hero and have a personal life? 

 

The only thing that gave me pause about the EP comments regarding the ring was that they only came up with it as an illustrative device for Oliver & Felicity's relationship status in Ivy Town. I hope there were some discussions about what was going to happen to it after it got put in the bowl, because it's Chekov's ring now, haha. Oliver's concerns all last season were that he couldn't be himself and a hero, and he never did resolve that, so it's understandable why he put the idea of marriage on hold, and I firmly believe that it's 100% about him, not them. 

[tarotx]

On their travels and Suburbia Felicity was the Secret superhero and Oliver the love not in the know.

 

As for the characters. Felicity tries to keep Oliver happy. She's a bit on egg shells because of s3. She wants a happy Oliver. She knows he deserves a life away from being a superhero. She does not want that but she wants to be with Oliver. She was trying to have it all.  And she was trying not to have an argument. S3 was hard on her. With that it's definitely not the time to get engaged. Oliver was there because he knew he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Felicity. Now he's not sure how much of a rest of a life they have. He's back at the first date knowing what he wants but not if he can have it. But he is willing to try. He loves Felicity and knows Felicity loves him. It's the mission and himself that scares him. And it's that fear that had Felicity secretive. She's afraid of Oliver's fear. So yeah they have work to do but it's manageable and real for their characters.

Edited October 10, 2015 by tarotx

[AyChihuahua]

I didn't think she was being insensitive re the loft.  I am sure Oliver is the one who suggested they live there.  It would be really, really passive-aggressive for him to suggest they live there and then be mad at her for being cool with it.  And if he were at all upset about living where Thea had been stabbed, he not only wouldn't have said they should live there, but he wouldn't have made the rug joke.

 

I also don't see him having doubts about who she is.  He already knew she cared a lot about the fight...she stayed after they found Walter, she fixed up the Arrow Cave when he abandoned the fight, she kept the team going after he "died," she stayed even when he was working with Malcolm, which infuriated her.  I mean, the writers can do whatever they want, which is not very likely to make sense, but I definitely did not get a vibe from him that he was at all upset with or doubtful about her.

Edited October 10, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wingster55]

I know that building a new set is why Oliver is ok living in the loft...but really I find it really disgusting that both are ok with it. And disrespectful to Thea. Maybe a line of finding a new place soon is needed?

[Chaser]

I agree. It was weird. Oliver never struck me as comfortable with the place because of Malcolm. I thought he tolerated it due to Thea, but now with what happened there you would think it had enough strikes against.

 

Budget restrictions make the characters weird sometimes.

[AyChihuahua]

At the moment I'm so fricking happy they're not actually living with Thea (although I'm sure she stays there sometimes), that I am happy to handwave him living on Malcolm's evil money.

[quarks]

Not disagreeing with any of the issues brought up with using the loft, especially since, although it was a good line, I'm not sure putting a rug over things is going to cut it, plus, now Oliver and Felicity are living in a place that they know anyone with a mask and a rope can just swing into, but this is so much better for me than the hoops Arrow leapt through last season in order to keep using the QC set, not to mention the nonsensical inheritance plot Flash just used to keep using the Star Labs sets, that I'm ok with it.

[wingster55]

At the moment I'm so fricking happy they're not actually living with Thea (although I'm sure she stays there sometimes), that I am happy to handwave him living on Malcolm's evil money.

Why does it please you that they aren't living with Thea?

[wonderwall]

Why does it please you that they aren't living with Thea?

 

It's just a matter of culture. In some cultures (especially American), it's weird for a brother (who is 30) to live with his serious girlfriend and his sister. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

At the moment I'm so fricking happy they're not actually living with Thea (although I'm sure she stays there sometimes), that I am happy to handwave him living on Malcolm's evil money.

 

Me, too. I'm so relieved. And I can easily create a scenario in my head where they're not living on Malcolm's evil money. Thea had mentioned a lease when she got the loft, so maybe it's a rental and Oliver and Felicity took over the lease, paying the rent out of their own pockets (specifically, Felicity's .. maybe, probably). Connection with Malcolm cut :)

[AyChihuahua]

It's just a matter of culture. In some cultures (especially American), it's weird for a brother (who is 30) to live with his serious girlfriend and his sister. 

Yeah, I'm REALLY not a fan of "Ha ha, I wonder if my sibling will catch me/hear me having sex, hardy har har."  It's gross.

[apinknightmare]

I was really skeeved out by Thea doing it with DJ Douchebag in the living room last season, so I'm glad we're not going to get any common area shenanigans this season.