Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Chaser]

I'm fine with Felicity not getting a mask. I'm not fine with Oliver being surrounded by so many masks. They have taken something away from Oliver by making it so easy for everyone to get a mask. In a way, they have made him replaceable on his show. 

 

As much as I enjoy 'Talk to me Felicity', she does need a codename tho.

[wingster55]

Only one without a mask? Quentin Lance objects. 

[wonderwall]

As much as I enjoy 'Talk to me Felicity', she does need a codename tho.

 

As long as they don't let EBR give her a codename -- because it's likely she'd want the codename Maple :p 

 

And I agree, they've made Oliver expendable on his own show. Fortunately, it's still centered around him so trying to replace him would be ridiculously hilarious. I feel like masks and comic canon ruined everything and here's why:

 

Roy and Laurel getting masks so easily (to fulfill their ludicrous comic destiny) marginalized Diggle, and in order for Diggle to be less marginalized because he's more liked than Roy and Laurel combined means that he needs to get a mask as well. And since Thea is important in Oliver's life, they can't kill her off so in order to make her relevant, she needs a mask as well. 

 

If Oliver was the only person on the show with a mask we probably wouldn't have this problem. 

 

I hate how everyone in Oliver's life except for Felicity is a fighter. I wanted more people in his life that aren't fighters. Having so many fighters on a show is boring and redundant tbqh.

Only one without a mask? Quentin Lance objects. 

Quentin Lance literally only had 20 minutes of screentime last season so it sort of doesn't matter if he does or not. Plus he's not important enough to Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

Only one without a mask? Quentin Lance objects. 

 

He wasn't mentioned in the list of people close to Oliver in wonderwall's post that I quoted, which is what I was referring to. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I feel like the show is marginalizing Oliver even more by having literally everyone get masks. IDK I find the amount of masks annoying. There needs to be more of a balance and the show screwed the pooch with that.

All the masks are super annoying! We now have to endure multiple origin stories that detract from the titular character. Also, his personal relationships with these people become secondary as they take up masks and missions, so that Oliver really loses his emotional support from friends and family as he gains colleagues(?) sidekicks(?).

I'm invested in Oliver's journey and want to see his growth. Like others, I resent that he is being rendered less-than in comparison to the metas and super suits trespassing on his turf.

Also, all these masks in Starling require job security, so crime will probably ratchet up to a level that will make it impossible to believe that the city could maintain any civilian population.

[wingster55]

I do 

Edit: Why did I type "I do"? Nobody knows. I'm just gonna leave it though. 

 

As long as they don't let EBR give her a codename -- because it's likely she'd want the codename Maple :p 

 

And I agree, they've made Oliver expendable on his own show. Fortunately, it's still centered around him so trying to replace him would be ridiculously hilarious. I feel like masks and comic canon ruined everything and here's why:

 

Roy and Laurel getting masks so easily (to fulfill their ludicrous comic destiny) marginalized Diggle, and in order for Diggle to be less marginalized because he's more liked than Roy and Laurel combined means that he needs to get a mask as well. And since Thea is important in Oliver's life, they can't kill her off so in order to make her relevant, she needs a mask as well. 

 

If Oliver was the only person on the show with a mask we probably wouldn't have this problem. 

 

I hate how everyone in Oliver's life except for Felicity is a fighter. I wanted more people in his life that aren't fighters. Having so many fighters on a show is boring and redundant tbqh.

Quentin Lance literally only had 20 minutes of screentime last season so it sort of doesn't matter if he does or not. Plus he's not important enough to Oliver.

Well, I don't think one needs to spend 5 years on an island etc to get a mask. I also don't think it's combined. It's hard to quantify who's more popular but in the media Diggle never really gets mentioned..and he has the least twitter followers of them all. 

 

I don't think Thea would ever be irrelevant to the show. If she didn't mask up in s3 she's still the only family Oliver has. Irrelevant? I think not. 

 

I also don't think Oliver is being marginalized. Not by a long shot. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by wingster55

[wonderwall]

Well, I don't think one needs to spend 5 years on an island etc to get a mask. I also don't think it's combined. It's hard to quantify who's more popular but in the media Diggle never really gets mentioned..and he has the least twitter followers of them all. 

 

I don't think Thea would ever be irrelevant to the show. If she didn't mask up in s3 she's still the only family Oliver has. Irrelevant? I think not. 

 

I also don't think Oliver is being marginalized. Not by a long shot. 

 

I think we should agree to disagree. I never thought the amount of Twitter followers were indicative of a character's popularity. I think Diggle is the one character people complain about the least. Literally no one complains about Diggle. Critics love him, because they never dis Diggle either and constantly wish for him to get a larger storyline. 

 

I think I worded it wrong. It's not that Thea could become irrelevant but the writers could easily get bored with her if she didn't get a mask and kill her off like they did with Moira. These writers don't ever seem to know what to do with characters who don't wear masks except for Felicity. They marginalized Diggle, the writers claimed they didn't know what to do with Laurel and then they gave her a mask, Thea had the same old song and dance (oh you lied to me!) for two seasons until she got her mask... 

 

When the writers have to kill a character off just so others can shine, it means that said character has been marginalized. There was no point for him dying considering he didn't learn anything from dying other than giving Laurel/Ray/Roy/Felicity/Diggle the spotlight. 

[wingster55]

I think we should agree to disagree. I never thought the amount of Twitter followers were indicative of a character's popularity. I think Diggle is the one character people complain about the least.

 

No, but media love isn't as strong. Oliver, LL and FS get more than anyone else. 

 

When the writers have to kill a character off just so others can shine, it means that said character has been marginalized. There was no point for him dying considering he didn't learn anything from dying other than giving Laurel/Ray/Roy/Felicity/Diggle the spotlight.

 

Or to give him more incentive to take down Ra's. 

[dtissagirl]

I think the fact that every main character but Felicity is in a mask now ends up adding to their little THEY HAVE FAILED THIS CITY problem in S3.

Outside of their group of in the know, these folks have little to no life outside the cave, little to no family and friends. All of their relationships are insulated. And the consequence is that "saving this city" becomes empty if we don't know any of the civilians that make a city into a home. The whole idea of doing the superheroing in anonimity for the sake of innocents is lost, because these folk don't really interact with anyone outside of their circle.

I know they thought the secrets kept characters from being in the A plot, but I dunno, stop hiring Brandon Routh and give Felicity and Laurel co-workers, give Thea employers, give Oliver a couple of informants/arrow supply dudes/a regular barista. World build a little so that the masks have people to save who are not themselves.

[wonderwall]

No, but media love isn't as strong. Oliver, LL and FS get more than anyone else. 

 

Or to give him more incentive to take down Ra's. 

 

The incentive to take down Ra's wasn't him dying though in the end. It was fighting to live so that makes no sense. 

 

Also LL doesn't get that much media love at all. I'd argue Diggle gets more love than LL. In the comment section yeah LL gets more love than Diggle, but I haven't seen more critics show love for LL over Diggle. REgardless, compared to Oliver/Felicity neither of them are nearly as talked about. 

I know they thought the secrets kept characters from being in the A plot, but I dunno, stop hiring Brandon Routh and give Felicity and Laurel co-workers, give Thea employers, give Oliver a couple of informants/arrow supply dudes/a regular barista. World build a little so that the masks have people to save who are not themselves.

 

I know the show mentions Felicity having lunch at the cafeteria at work, but I wish they'd show her interact with people like Gerry and whatnot. I mean I know she interacts with others, but I wish they'd show it. I'd also like for Diggle to have something of his own that isn't his family... Like maybe start a security company and have Felicity/QI invest in his business? 

 

Anyways, this is why I sort of like the idea of Oliver going into politics. If Moira can win and become Mayor (even after the Undertaking) then I'm sure Oliver can win. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I find it interesting that as the number of masks increased, the number of domestic spaces decreased. We lost the mansion, Roy's Glades Love Shack, and Laurel's apartment/stop on the super villain tour of Starling. Although all of these spaces saw action (pun intended), they also served as gathering spaces for non-violent character interactions. These spaces helped us to know the characters who lived in them. We gained a few new domestic spaces, such as Diggle and Lyla's place, which provided a real sense of home and comfort. We also saw Thea's new loft--a vast barren space bought with blood money that seemed more like a staging ground for stupidity than a real home, and we got a brief glimpse into Felicity's quirky town home. However, I don't think the new domestic spaces were given the same importance to the story or amount of screen time as the retired spaces from S1 & S2.

I am not counting the Nanda Parbat Love Hotel.

That left us with countless rooftops, alleyways, warehouses, and other public spaces. Masks must do their masking in the public realm; they don't sit around the dinner table or binge watch Netflix in the living room in costume.

I guess the relationships I'm highlighting in this meandering post were those between the characters and their homes, which strengthened and humanized the relationships among the characters. I miss that a lot.

[frenchtoast]

Folks, can we please bring this back to relationships? I'm feeling uber lazy tonight otherwise I'd move a whole bunch of posts to the bitterness topic.

 

Thanks!

[AyChihuahua]

It reminds me a little of the very beginning of Angel, in which he realized/was told that just running around saving people without connections was going to end with him killing people again.  So he let Cordelia and Doyle in.  Oliver definitely needs more connections to the city he supposedly loves.

[tv echo]

Maybe it's partly a budget problem?  They probably would have to pay recurring actors (to play the regular people that the main cast has interactions with) more than extras.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, it's definitely a budget problem. I thnk Matt Nable was a budget problem too -- they just didn't have the money to hire a better actor to play Ra's. And EmeraldArcher's point about them losing the several sets is about the budget too. But these are ultimately creative choices. They spent a pretty penny on Routh because they thought he'd give them the third show, and as a consequence, Starling City became an afterthought on Arrow. And every character's relationship with the city itself disappeared.

It's kind of ironic now that I think about it, that they brought Routh in, and Palmer makes that hilarious speech about turning Starling City into Star City as if he's the one who's gonna be deeply connected TO the city... and then that plotline was completely dropped.

Edited June 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Delphi]

I find it interesting that as the number of masks increased, the number of domestic spaces decreased. We lost the mansion, Roy's Glades Love Shack, and Laurel's apartment/stop on the super villain tour of Starling. Although all of these spaces saw action (pun intended), they also served as gathering spaces for non-violent character interactions. These spaces helped us to know the characters who lived in them. We gained a few new domestic spaces, such as Diggle and Lyla's place, which provided a real sense of home and comfort. We also saw Thea's new loft--a vast barren space bought with blood money that seemed more like a staging ground for stupidity than a real home, and we got a brief glimpse into Felicity's quirky town home. However, I don't think the new domestic spaces were given the same importance to the story or amount of screen time as the retired spaces from S1 & S2.

I am not counting the Nanda Parbat Love Hotel.

That left us with countless rooftops, alleyways, warehouses, and other public spaces. Masks must do their masking in the public realm; they don't sit around the dinner table or binge watch Netflix in the living room in costume.

I guess the relationships I'm highlighting in this meandering post were those between the characters and their homes, which strengthened and humanized the relationships among the characters. I miss that a lot.

Laurel's apartment was sacrificed to become the Yamashiro's home in season three, so I imagine it'll be back next year.

In a way, this whole problem is similar to what is happening on Once Upon a Time, where the show runners get so excited about what ever new property Disney/DC Comics let's them play with so they throw their whole budget at that. So and in the end it ensd up short changing the main cast who seem like they don't have a home and spend every second in their base of operations and it appears that they have absolutely nothing going on besides the mission. The writers say that it happens but it's off screen, we're just supposed to take their word for it. It's very unsatisfying.

Relationship wise is also similar to Once in how when they get these new properties to have fun with everything becomes plot and action over characterization or interaction with one another and any interaction that the characters have only serve the plot.

[EmeraldArcher]

Starling City became an afterthought on Arrow. And every character's relationship with the city itself disappeared.

Great point! It was interesting how Oliver's opening voice over reflects his disconnect from the city. He now says that the people on his team know him as Oliver Queen and that the city knows him as someone else. In S2, Oliver Queen's return to the city warranted news coverage that trumped the assassination of the mayor (I admit, mayoral assassination is incredibly common there), but Oliver has no public persona at all in S3. I even thought it was ironic that he had to give his name to the host at the Italian restaurant in "The Calm" instead of being greeted with "Right this way, Mr. Queen" or some other acknowledgment.

I think it's a mistake to make him estranged from Starling too long because his whole mission has been about saving the city. Even when he gave up the list that represented his father's sins in S1, he worked to repair his mother's damage in S2. Relationships to places are often as important as those to people.

[tarotx]

I think Sara and Oliver worked because it gave the show a good Green Arrow and BC dynamic. But it was a bit of a regression for Sara. She was trying to make amends and she sleeps with Oliver again? Not going to help the family dynamic.She realized that she was using Oliver as a shared shield abd cruch. So ended it.

Oliver Slept with Isabel so yeah he was onto the sex for sex sake. Though he did have a nice bond with Sara.

I actually think having Oliver not have sex until the end of s3 really showed his feelings for Felicity if nothing else did. It was a nice change for him. A unique dynamic for Oliver.

Though I did read some comments suggesting that all the maturation Oliver must have been doing was what was making him dumb. A sexless Green Arrow was even less fun than a humorless one or so read implication.

Edited June 17, 2015 by tarotx

[statsgirl]

I don't think Thea would ever be irrelevant to the show. If she didn't mask up in s3 she's still the only family Oliver has. Irrelevant? I think not. 

I don't think she would be irrelevant because she's the only family that we know about that the writers haven't killed off (yet) but she's had more time in season 3 than she had in seasons 1 and 2 combined, and it's because she's been training with Malcolm, killed by  Ra's and getting ready to put on her mask.  That's all the writers really seem to care about. the process of getting a mask. When the mask is got, chances are the character may be gone (Ray, Sara, Roy) to make room for the next mask arc.  Diggle's going to get his next season. It's a good thing Felicity has a skill set that can't be easily replicated or I'd worry about her too.

 

Also if Thea didn't have a mask, I wouldn't put it past them to kill her off for a big season finale and bring in a Dearden cousin called Mia (the one whose name she borrowed during her time on Corto Maltese) to be Oliver's new family now..

 

 

I was talking about how Sara as a character and history as well as actor chemistry with SA&Oliver could have been a perfect alternative to tell an Arrow and Canary on&off relationship story. If the show had wanted to tell a more organic Lawyer to Mask story for Laurel as Manhunter.

But Laurel does exist so you can't remove her from Sara and Ollie. Sara wanted to fix her relationship with Laurel. She was afraid because of all the hurt and was using Oliver as a sort of cruch.

Kelly Konda's article two years ago about the Oliver/Laurel/Felicity situation was called The Burden of Canon and I think that really nails the Laurel situation.  Sara was the Black Canary of the comics, she had the martial arts skills and the equal on&off relationship with Oliver but Laurel had the name.  They could have had a better show IMO if Laurel had not had the burden of canon.

[AyChihuahua]

"3.This is Starling City, so she could easily be in some sort of life-or-death situation that the team can’t seem to save her from, which leads to them calling Ollie. Because if there’s one person he’ll do anything to save, it’s his little sister."

 

I am going to show my terrible sibling cred here (I have a brother) and say I am not super comfortable with how sort of obsessed Oliver is with his sister.  I don't mean in an incest-y way, but I personally find it odd that he seems to put her above EVERYBODY.  For example, I would think that at least now, Felicity, who is the love of his life and who he's pretty certainly going to end up marrying, would also be a person he's willing to do anything to save.  Maybe it's because I'm still a little POd at Thea for voluntarily leaving with her known mass murderer daddy - although I like where she ended up and where they can go moving forward - I still think he's unusually focused on her.  Maybe it's because she's younger?  Supernatural had a similar sort of co-dependent sibling thing going on, too.  Are siblings usually that close?  I mean, they act like he'd choose Thea over his own eventual kids, Felicity, everyone. 

[wonderwall]

"3.This is Starling City, so she could easily be in some sort of life-or-death situation that the team can’t seem to save her from, which leads to them calling Ollie. Because if there’s one person he’ll do anything to save, it’s his little sister."

 

I am going to show my terrible sibling cred here (I have a brother) and say I am not super comfortable with how sort of obsessed Oliver is with his sister.  I don't mean in an incest-y way, but I personally find it odd that he seems to put her above EVERYBODY.  For example, I would think that at least now, Felicity, who is the love of his life and who he's pretty certainly going to end up marrying, would also be a person he's willing to do anything to save.  Maybe it's because I'm still a little POd at Thea for voluntarily leaving with her known mass murderer daddy - although I like where she ended up and where they can go moving forward - I still think he's unusually focused on her.  Maybe it's because she's younger?  Supernatural had a similar sort of co-dependent sibling thing going on, too.  Are siblings usually that close?  I mean, they act like he'd choose Thea over his own eventual kids, Felicity, everyone. 

 

I think it's because every single other person in the Queen family is dead, Oliver lost his father, mother, so it makes sense to me that he'd be so fixated on his sister. Plus, it's not like he wouldn't especially if the situation were life and death (which when it came to Thea, it usually was). The only moment that made me truly side eye Oliver's love for Thea though was him going to Nanda Parbat (for plot reasons of course) to save Malcolm. Nah that was just taking it a step too far. 

 

If Oliver does come back for Thea, I really do hope it's because she's experiencing delayed reactions to the LP. I want Oliver to be there for her. But honestly, I think if he keeps saving her life 500 times per season, it'll start to get old fast. I really need Thea to start being smart (and not go away with a serial killer father) and not fall into trouble every 2.5 seconds. I hope she comes into her own this season.

[Ceylon5]

I am going to show my terrible sibling cred here (I have a brother) and say I am not super comfortable with how sort of obsessed Oliver is with his sister.  I don't mean in an incest-y way, but I personally find it odd that he seems to put her above EVERYBODY.  For example, I would think that at least now, Felicity, who is the love of his life and who he's pretty certainly going to end up marrying, would also be a person he's willing to do anything to save.  Maybe it's because I'm still a little POd at Thea for voluntarily leaving with her known mass murderer daddy - although I like where she ended up and where they can go moving forward - I still think he's unusually focused on her.  Maybe it's because she's younger?  Supernatural had a similar sort of co-dependent sibling thing going on, too.  Are siblings usually that close?  I mean, they act like he'd choose Thea over his own eventual kids, Felicity, everyone. 

 

Yes, I'm with you on this.  They didn't help matters by giving him the super-creepy line "If we're not together, then we're not even really alive".  Who says that to their sibling?  I get that she's the last of his family and he really can't cope with losing anyone else, but still I think they go overboard with this and it does make me uncomfortable.

[apinknightmare]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: someone on that writing staff has read a hell of a lot of VC Andrews.

[Delphi]

Okay that line was, really, really creepy but on the other hand I can Kinda see where Oliver is coming from as me and my sister are super close like that even though none of our friends are close with their family, we're in our twenties and live together still even though we both are in committed relationships and she actually got married last year.

When we were teenagers we were actually separated for two years due to reasons and and the year after we were finally living in the same house again our mom died.

All the tragedy really brought us together and gave us this really strange, clingy bond. She freaks out if I leave for the weekend, I was a wreck when she flew overseas last year and didn't call me soon enough.

The Thea/Oliver relationship makes perfect sense to me.

[dtissagirl]

I still think he's unusually focused on her.  Maybe it's because she's younger?  Supernatural had a similar sort of co-dependent sibling thing going on, too.  Are siblings usually that close?  I mean, they act like he'd choose Thea over his own eventual kids, Felicity, everyone. 

 

Yup, I'm a little creeped out by how Oliver treats Thea as well. I have a sister who's 9 years younger, so I relate to the age difference, but not at all to the co-dependency. Which also seems pretty one sided [Oliver] to me. 

 

I think maybe he looks at her as if she were much younger/naive than she actually is? Perhaps because of his years away not seeing her day to day growth? I know parents tend to do it even living under the same roof, but otoh I've never got the sense that Oliver is trying to parent Thea. But he infantilizes her nonetheless. 

 

Edit: I think it also doesn't help me that I thought they had super inappropriate sexual chemistry n S1, and THAT creeped the fuck outta me. Guess the after effects are still going.

Edited June 19, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Starfish35]

I guess that line was creepy if you think about it (which I didn't - it didn't really register), but I don't find Oliver's and Thea's relationship to be unusual beyond that. My brother and I are really close and I have several friends that are really close to their siblings and would do a lot to help them out if they were in trouble. (I also have friends who aren't close to their siblings, but I'm just saying - I don't think it's strange at all.) I didn't think there was anything unusual about Oliver's determination to save Thea. And I didn't see it as him putting her above Felicity - if it had been Felicity in the same situation I'm sure he'd go just as far to save her.

Now if we're talking about Oliver making decisions for Thea (especially regarding Malcolm)...that's a whole different discussion, and I don't appreciate how he's handled that in several occasions. But I didn't think that was what we were talking about?

Edited June 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

Yup, I'm a little creeped out by how Oliver treats Thea as well. I have a sister who's 9 years younger, so I relate to the age difference, but not at all to the co-dependency. Which also seems pretty one sided [Oliver] to me. 

 

I think maybe he looks at her as if she were much younger/naive than she actually is? Perhaps because of his years away not seeing her day to day growth? I know parents tend to do it even living under the same roof, but otoh I've never got the sense that Oliver is trying to parent Thea. But he infantilizes her nonetheless. 

 

Edit: I think it also doesn't help me that I thought they had super inappropriate sexual chemistry n S1, and THAT creeped the fuck outta me. Guess the after effects are still going.

I think, and this isn't a rip on anyone bc God knows I'd probably feel the same in her situation, that Willa Holland may have a little bit of a thing for SA that contributed to that kind of inappropriate chemistry.  My evidence isn't just the chemistry itself, but at that convention appearance in which he famously showed off his abs, she was saying something like she knew he was in showing-abs condition since he'd been giving her a piggy-back ride all over town the night before.  To be clear, that's not at all creepy, because they're not actually related, but I think it could contribute to the in-show slightly-inappropriate chemistry bw the two.

 

Okay, on topic, most of the late teens and up people I know are not all that close to their siblings.  I mean, they'd lend them money and send them cards, but they wouldn't sacrifice their souls for them.  I find that to be a very Winchestery unhealthy vibe (as noted by Archangel Gabriel).  I have zero problem with him risking his life for her, but he basically just gives his life for her, seemingly on the regular.  I literally talk to my sibling on the phone maybe 2x/year.  Now I probably go pretty far the other way, but I would like him to pull back a little bit and allow her to grow, even if that means growing away from him into her own independent person.  I want her on the team, definitely, just pull back on the "she's the most important person in my life/if we're not together we're nothing" melodrama a bit.

 

"And I didn't see it as him putting her above Felicity - if it had been Felicity in the same situation I'm sure he'd go just as far to save her."

 

I agree that he would have taken the offer in exchange for LPing Felicity as well.  POSSIBLY even Digg.  But I feel like, as evidenced by the EW article saying Thea is "the one person" her would do anything to save, that something is being twisted a bit in translation.  There is SO MUCH focus on his relationship with Thea that I feel like I'm watching that one Friends episode in which Rachel falls for the former mountain man guy who lives with his sister, and they, like, tickle each other.  Just a bit too much interest/focus, getting a leeeeettle too close to the line into obsession.  Maybe they'll pull back on that in S4, though, since they had to really build their relationship up for all the LP drama.

Edited June 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[AyChihuahua]

I'm talking about the relationship on the show.  As long as your sibling hasn't said he's nothing without you and/or sold his soul to an evil ancient terrorist to bring you back to life, I think you're good.

 

Also, I'm much more uncomfortable with the Winchester relationship, and I have never gotten any incest vibes from those two.  It's not really a sex thing, although I agree that WH and SA have some sexual chemistry.  It's more the co-dependent thing.  For example, when Thea was gone on her walkabout, had it not been with MM, I think it would have been really good for them both.  He is very focused on her, to a degree that is more typical for a person to be focused on a spouse and children.  I'm honestly thinking it was largely a result of the S3 plot, and they'll pull back a little in S4 and he'll let her grow up and hopefully somewhat away.

Edited June 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

I think this is just an area of very different perceptions, because I remember that Friends episode, and yes, that was creepy, but I don't see Oliver's and Thea's relationship as being anywhere even on the same planet as that.

I'm getting defensive about this and I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with Thea being the most important person in Oliver's life in season three. That does not mean that I would expect him to put her over any theoretical wife and kids, but he does not have a wife and kids in season three. He's not even in a relationship with anyone. So yes, I see nothing wrong with Thea being Oliver's top priority. As of season four, he's in a relationship with Felicity, but that doesn't mean Thea stops being important to him, and so far it's not a contest between the two.

Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about Dawn being Buffy's top priority in season five, or Buffy sacrificing her life to save Dawn's? (Assuming you watched BtVS - maybe you didn't.)

Edited June 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[Delphi]

I'm talking about the relationship on the show. As long as your sibling hasn't said he's nothing without you and/or sold his soul to an evil ancient terrorist to bring you back to life, I think you're good.

See, the thing is I wouldn't phrase it exactly the way Oliver did, but I absolutely do need my sister in my life and I have no idea what I'd do without her. We've lost so many of our friends and family that in a way she is the most important person to me right next to my partner.

And secondly, she's my baby sister. I'm her brother, I'd absolutely do whatever it took to save her life at the cost of mine. She'd be worth it.

[AyChihuahua]

I think this is just an area of very different perceptions, because I remember that Friends episode, and yes, that was creepy, but I don't see Oliver's and Thea's relationship as being anywhere even on the same planet as that.

I'm getting defensive about this and I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with Thea being the most important person in Oliver's life in season three. That does not mean that I would expect him to put her over any theoretical wife and kids, but he does not have a wife and kids in season three. He's not even in a relationship with anyone. So yes, I see nothing wrong with Thea being Oliver's top priority. As of season four, he's in a relationship with Felicity, but that doesn't mean Thea stops being important to him, and so far it's not a contest between the two.

Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about Dawn being Buffy's top priority in season five, or Buffy sacrificing her life to save Dawn's? (Assuming you watched BtVS - maybe you didn't.)

Why feel defensive?  I'm a random stranger, and we're talking about a sibling relationship on a CW superhero tv show.  Even if you recognize some aspects of that sibling relationship, e.g., general closeness, in your sibling relationship, it's still a sibling relationship on a tv show that is inherently completely unrealistic. 

 

Re the BtVS comparison, that is quite interesting.  I watched that show live from the first episode ever, and watched the original movie in the theater.  I don't think I found that relationship to be co-dependent, though.  For one thing, Dawn was actually a child in S5.  Additionally, saving her = saving the world, and vice versa.  I really compare Thea/Oliver more to Sam/Dean than Buffy/Dawn.  And again, I don't have a problem with him RISKING his life for her, in fact I expect him to, especially now that she is on the team.  However, she's also an adult now, who will make adult mistakes that Oliver should not always bail her out from.  That is what, on a different board, Oliver's parents did for him, and it didn't turn out very well.

 

Ooh, compare the main sibling relationship on The 100.  Olivia and that guy (I like him, just can't think of his name).  He's protective, but I don't find him to be overbearing or obsessive.  He doesn't try to prevent her from being a warrior or having a relationship, and he doesn't keep all adult issues and problems from her to keep her in some safe little box.  Oliver does.  

[dtissagirl]

I think I'm more put off about Oliver in this. I don't think he sees Thea as a grown up, which I find problematic, and while I think that he has reasons to put so much weight on her being The One to Protect and Save, it doesn't look very healthy imo.

And to be clear, I don't think this is a matter of Oliver finding someone else to be The One to Protect and Save. I don't want that at all from his relationship with Felicity either. I guess I find his overprotectiveness off-putting. And wrt Thea, if feels to me like he's seeing her as less than she is.

I'm glad she's gonna be part of the team now, though, because Oliver is gonna have to deal with that. What if he puts Thea's safety above the other team members? That's being a brother, not being a team leader. It gives them story beats if they wanna deal with that.

Edited June 19, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Carrie Ann]

Ooh, compare the main sibling relationship on The 100.  Olivia and that guy (I like him, just can't think of his name).  He's protective, but I don't find him to be overbearing or obsessive.  He doesn't try to prevent her from being a warrior or having a relationship, and he doesn't keep all adult issues and problems from her to keep her in some safe little box.  Oliver does.  

 

Yeah, Bellamy and Octavia are not very far apart in age--a year? maybe up to three? I honestly can't remember--and I do think that plays a part in Oliver's overprotectiveness with Thea. She's his baby sister, so he hasn't yet come to the point where he can see her as an equal. I don't think this is meant to be an ideal dynamic yet, and I suspect they'll work on that this season.

 

I think Dawn/Buffy IS a good comparison, for this reason. Buffy was significantly older than Dawn (7-8 years, I want to say?) and played much the same role in Sunnydale that Oliver plays in Starling, and they both made mistakes in protecting their sisters and made huge sacrifices for them as well.

 

I think the much-younger-sibling is a way for writers to basically give a lead character a kid before they actually give them a kid, in terms of story/character development. And you can get to the critical point faster: where the younger sibling grows up and the older sibling has to learn how to let them be their own person and make their own mistakes. That's the story they've been telling with Oliver and Thea from the beginning, and that's why I think that Oliver will have to let go of Thea a bit more this season. It doesn't mean he'll love her less, but she needs to become more self-determined.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

I don't remember feeling this way in S1 and S2.  I mean, I got a little of the sexual chemistry vibe between the actors, but I could ignore that because it wasn't text or subtext, just chemistry.  So for me I think it's a combination of the loss of Moira and the plot machinations of S3.  They really had to emphasize that particular relationship for the whole season to work, really.  I do hope they dial it down a bit from now on, so I don't want S4 to be all about saving Thea or him coming back to town specifically to save Thea again. 

 

Are you sure about Bellamy and Octavia being close in age (thx for the names)?  He was old enough to be there assisting his mom and hiding the baby when she was born.

Edited June 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

I don't watch The 100, so I can't comment on that.

For example, when Thea was gone on her walkabout, had it not been with MM, I think it would have been really good for them both. He is very focused on her, to a degree that is more typical for a person to be focused on a spouse and children.

See, I don't really see this, actually. Thea and Oliver were totally out of communication for five months, excluding the postcards, and while Oliver was getting a little restless about that in the premiere (as I would be), he didn't really get agitated about it until Sara died. When Sara was murdered, and watching Laurel grieve the loss of her sister, he really felt the need to get in to touch with his own sister, and when he couldn't, I think that pushed him over the edge. And that's natural I think. When things happen, you call family. You need to hear their voice, you just need to know they're ok. And Oliver couldn't get in touch with Thea. I would have been losing my mind.

And then when he saw Thea's note and realized how broken things were between them and this wasn't just Thea going on walkabout, I think he really wanted to fix their relationship. But in order to do that, she had to come home. But he didn't force her to do that - she made that decision on her own.

Now that said, I don't approve of a lot of his decisions where Thea is concerned. Running off at the end of season one and leaving her alone when their mother had just been arrested, abandoning her after Moira's death, keeping so many secrets from her, and worst of all (by far the stupidest thing), not respecting her choice to turn MM over to Ra's and risking his own life to go get him back. So I agree that Oliver's made a lot of stupid choices where Thea is concerned, but I don't see that as making them abnormally close, or unnaturally focused on her.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't watch The 100, so I can't comment on that.

See, I don't really see this, actually. Thea and Oliver were totally out of communication for five months, excluding the postcards, and while Oliver was getting a little restless about that in the premiere (as I would be), he didn't really get agitated about it until Sara died. When Sara was murdered, and watching Laurel grieve the loss of her sister, he really felt the need to get in to touch with his own sister, and when he couldn't, I think that pushed him over the edge. And that's natural I think. When things happen, you call family. You need to hear their voice, you just need to know they're ok. And Oliver couldn't get in touch with Thea. I would have been losing my mind.

And then when he saw Thea's note and realized how broken things were between them and this wasn't just Thea going on walkabout, I think he really wanted to fix their relationship. But in order to do that, she had to come home. But he didn't force her to do that - she made that decision on her own.

Now that said, I don't approve of a lot of his decisions where Thea is concerned. Running off at the end of season one and leaving her alone when their mother had just been arrested, abandoning her after Moira's death, keeping so many secrets from her, and worst of all (by far the stupidest thing), not respecting her choice to turn MM over to Ra's and risking his own life to go get him back. So I agree that Oliver's made a lot of stupid choices where Thea is concerned, but I don't see that as making them abnormally close, or unnaturally focused on her.

I'm cool with agreeing to disagree, honestly.  I personally find him a little too focused on her and would like to see him back off and let her grow into her own person.  And I mentioned I only noticed this in S3, so it's probably just because of the plot.  No one has to agree, that is simply my perception.

Edited June 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Sunshine]

I am going to take Oliver accepting Thea in the field in 3.23 and her wanting him to change his mind about leaving (He didn't.) as an indication that their S4 relationship will be a little more normal (healthy?).  I think S3 was because of plot. 

[BkWurm1]

I think the much-younger-sibling is a way for writers to basically give a lead character a kid before they actually give them a kid, in terms of story/character development. And you can get to the critical point faster: where the younger sibling grows up and the older sibling has to learn how to let them be their own person and make their own mistakes. That's the story they've been telling with Oliver and Thea from the beginning, and that's why I think that Oliver will have to let go of Thea a bit more this season. It doesn't mean he'll love her less, but she needs to become more self-determined.

 

Yeah, this is what I get from their relationship.  Thea was 12 when he left, still only 17 when he returned and whatever age difference there had always been between them, those five years Oliver was gone put many, many more years of experience between them.  Thea gets number one status because you always put the kids above everyone. 

 

I think Oliver leaving and letting some of the responsibility for keeping the city safe rest on Thea's shoulders was supposed to signal a change in their relationship and I would expect to see more of that explored. 

[Morrigan2575]

I think Dawn/Buffy IS a good comparison, for this reason. Buffy was significantly older than Dawn (7-8 years, I want to say?) and played much the same role in Sunnydale that Oliver plays in Starling, and they both made mistakes in protecting their sisters and made huge sacrifices for them as well.

I think it was 4 years. Buffy was a Sophomore in Season 5 so 19 years old (ish) and Dawn was 15 (I think) when she was introduced.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

I think Dawn was 14 (ETA: she was - I just checked), but yes Buffy was 19 when season five started and would have turned 20 during season five (I always remember her 17th birthday was in season two). So 5-6 years, depending on when they decided Dawn's birthday was.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[Carrie Ann]

Thanks for checking, guys! I think I was overestimating the age difference because the character was originally envisioned to be more like 10/11, but then they decided to cast MT and aged Dawn up (though not entirely successfully, IMO).

 

At any rate, I still think that was the vibe they were going for with B/D, and with O/T--siblings that are closer in age tend to feel a little more competitive with each other, I think (Sara/Laurel, for example), while those with a greater age difference can end up with that protective/rebellious dynamic.

[BkWurm1]

siblings that are closer in age tend to feel a little more competitive with each other, I think (Sara/Laurel, for example), while those with a greater age difference can end up with that protective/rebellious dynamic.

 

That plays out between my brother and I.  A year and a half between us, different genders, totally different interests in most everything, opposite aptitude in school and yet somehow we were always fighting to be right even if it was just about the proper way to mow the lawn (he cared, I didn't). 

 

Oliver and Thea's relationship has always been such a contradiction.  He'd do anything for her, but at the same time the one thing she'd begged him for - to let her in -was for years and years the one thing he wouldn't (couldn't) give her.  Even after she was in the know, Oliver's first instinct wasn't for them to spend time together and get to know each other, but to train together.  They've been living together for how long but while they obviously love each other, they don't honestly seem close.  I mean, Thea JUST put on a costume and Oliver was fine with driving away. 

 

I think he had to for his sanity but it is at such odds against all his other characterization.  He's super protective but really the only thing he has shielded her from is the truth...about hers birth, how Malcolm used her, who he was, the danger that Mr. Slade represented.  He mostly lets her do and live her life however she wants, even now risking her life daily and that stuff he's ok with, but he gets all wussy about her knowing stuff.    

 

Again, he's devoted, but it doesn't feel like either of them really know the other person beyond their assigned role of sibling. 

Edited June 19, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wingster55]

Honestly, I don't really see why him prioritizing her is a bad thing..it's about damn time actually. He abandoned her after season 1, never really let her in (actually he still tends to hold back) and didn't respect her. This changed, and should continue to change.

[BkWurm1]

Honestly, I don't really see why him prioritizing her is a bad thing..it's about damn time actually. He abandoned her after season 1, never really let her in (actually he still tends to hold back) and didn't respect her. This changed, and should continue to change.

I don't think it is a bad thing but it is interesting to break the whys and wherefores down.

 

I would like to see him putting her first in the future manifest in a more day to day manner than just saving it for keeping her alive or bringing her back from the dead.  Hey, not saying that's not important, but I was disappointed that we didn't get more bonding time between them.  We got the pop corn movie scene and I guess running from Slade counts too but the rest, not so much. 

 

I crave normal interaction between ALL of the cast members really.  I would LOVE an episode where the action all happens off screen and is secondary to say the group organizing a surprise party for someone. Something mundane.  I want to see them as people.  I want to see Laurel annoyed that Thea borrowed her baton  ( or annoyed that they hid her black lipstick again).  I want to see Diggle offering another basic self defense lesson to Felicity.  Or Laurel or Thea.  Oliver would be awesome too but for very different reasons so yeah, let him give her private lessons, lol.   I want the girls to be out having coffee and have Quentin join them. 

 

I know an entire episode devoted to characterization is never going to happen but it feels like while season three was supposed to be more focused on emotions and character, it managed to have less of those moments that connect me to the characters.  

[wingster55]

^ You just described my dream episode. The character moments and growth SHOULD be the most important part. 

[manbearpig]

Maybe we'll get that kind of episode out of necessity if the CW keeps slashing their budget! Honestly, I think certain episodes could use one less stunt sequence. A lot of the time there's no breathing room during the show, and certain scenes just...end. Maybe it would have been more forgivable during past seasons when the stunts were almost always good, but this year...they're still good, but I'd rather see a good scene between two characters than motorcycle jousting or spot the stunt double.

[dtissagirl]

Maybe we'll get that kind of episode out of necessity if the CW keeps slashing their budget! Honestly, I think certain episodes could use one less stunt sequence.

 

Agreed, so much. It's season four, the show is established, it's way past time to stop sticking to their format formula of writing episodes/characters towards the specific stunt scenes of the week, and play a little with other formats. Do a bottle episode where people are locked up in a place and they need to work together to figure out how to get free. Do an entire episode without stunt sequences because the villain of the week is not someone who can fight, or use a gun, or anything action-y.

 

Playing with formats also helps build both character development and relationships, because it's not only having to put the characters in a different kind of situation, but it also forces the writers to go outside of their comfy box.

[apinknightmare]

From the social media thread:

 

 

Makes her cry, makes her weak, Ray treated her better, she's not funny anymore, etc. Olicity is often blamed for Felicity not having her own storyline this year and for making her character all about a guy, but people that say that often ignore that it was actually in the Raylicity storyline that she acted like a pod person.

 

I find this interesting, because yeah, Ray did give her a VP position, but the context of it was so that she could help him build his souper suit (not saying she did or did not deserve that position - don't want to start that argument again). And when it came down to it, he questioned her emotional judgment, so he was just as much of a jerk to her as Oliver can be at times. She benefited more career-wise and financially from Ray, but he gave her those benefits for selfish reasons, just like when Oliver moved her from the IT department for his own selfish reasons. 

[dtissagirl]

I can't help but see the biases behind claims that Palmer is better than Felicity. I've never seen anyone who's looking out for Felicity's best interests first and foremost 'shipping her with Palmer.

Here's a male character that had everything going for him on paper to be a charismatic fan-favorite new hero; instead he got a lukewarm reception at best, and a whole lot of *crickets* in fandom produced content. When people weren't tearing him down instead. So I question what is it that they're seeing on him that the large majority of the audience didn't.

And also. I've yet to see someone who 1. is a Felicity fan first and 2. doesn't 'ship Oliver with another woman, who believes Palmer would be the the best partner for Felicity. It's super easy to want Palmer for Felicity when you prefer Felicity to be the quippy comic relief at all times, with reduced screen time in a strict support role. Because Palmer gives her very very little character development, so that's a pairing that can be in the background. And Felicity having the secondary 'ship on Arrow also keeps her away from Oliver. Who's the A plot. Around whom the story revolves, which allows the characters near him within the story to be more than only one thing at a time. See: episodes 310 to 319, which kept Felicity in the sidelines while she dated Palmer.

So I guess I equate 'shipping Felicity/Palmer with wanting less stories for Felicity, in which case: NOPE.

[doesntworkonwood]

There was a weird thing in the way they presented Felicity in her relationship with Palmer. For me Felicity always came across as the more academically (and otherwise) intelligent. I'd say she did a lot of the work behind the suit.  It was Palmer who sought her out to help, it was her who figured out the chip, and it took sleeping with her for Palmer to figure out the suit (which is totally a stretch but I like to include for the amusing symbolism). 

 

But even so, Palmer always had the upper hand. Even though it sounds like this story could have all been about Felicity, she is the one who did most of the hard work after all, it never was. It was always about Palmer, which was ridiculous. 

 

I know I'm mixing in text and out of text here but even so. Felicity had been on this show for 2 years, and Ray got 20 episodes yet the storyline was more about him. Felicity is a major character in Arrow, and Ray had no part in the major storyline until the last few episodes. Ray was the boss, and Felicity was his subordinate. It was Ray's suit they were working on, not Felicity's hacking skills. It was Ray's dinners they were going to, not ones at Felicity's house. The storyline was all about Ray, with Felicity only there to do most of the hard work, and to make him relevant. 

 

I don't think Felicity actually got anything out of her relationship with Ray, besides Queen Consolidated, a company which she may not even want. Ray got a suit and the status of a hero and his own show. 

 

Giving Felicity a friend or boyfriend should have given us the opportunity to learn more about her. We learnt about her through her mom, and through her ex-boyfriend, but despite the fact that he was there longer, Felicity's relationship with Ray was all about Ray. We did not get to see her in the way we should have. And that's why Ray's relationship with Felicity was never, IMO, good for her character.