Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

Maybe Oliver didn't dangle maybes, he just dangled his feelings once in episode 5, which is kinda bad too?
 

I say episode 5 and not 9 because I think Oliver wanted to be with her in that moment, that when/if he were to return he'd take a chance with Felicity and actually be with her (which is why he went to her office in episode 7). Then Oliver had that talk with Tatsu and he came back still wanting to be with Felicity and hoping that him teaming up with Malcolm wouldn't drive her away (which is why he went after her. IMO he went after her because he hoped that Tatsu was wrong). But then Felicity shut Oliver down and Oliver realized that what Tatsu told him about sacrificing the thing most precious to him was actually happening. 

[apinknightmare]

Maybe Oliver didn't dangle maybes, he just dangled his feelings once in episode 5, which is kinda bad too?

 

He did do that, but you could tell by his reaction to Felicity's reaction that he very quickly realized that was a no. I'm just having difficulty with this because Felicity never showed a single ounce of hesitation when it came to moving on, and she never pined over Oliver or sulked about his decision. She told him it would be over once he backed off, and she followed through with that. She pursued the thing with Ray, which is exactly what I would expect from the character that I knew for two years prior. She's never taken Oliver's shit, and she didn't when it came to this. 

 

Oliver was completely honest and open with her about his feelings (which is new for him), and she didn't let any of that sway her into not moving on. It's a win on both sides, IMO. I mean, I wouldn't have blamed her if she did have difficulty moving on, but that is not supported in the text at all. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

He did do that, but you could tell by his reaction to Felicity's reaction that he very quickly realized that was a no. I'm just having difficulty with this because Felicity never showed a single ounce of hesitation when it came to moving on, and she never pined over Oliver or sulked about his decision. She told him it would be over once he backed off, and she followed through with that. She pursued the thing with Ray, which is exactly what I would expect from the character that I knew for two years prior. She's never taken Oliver's shit, and she didn't when it came to this. 

 

Oliver was completely honest and open with her about his feelings (which is new for him), and she didn't let any of that sway her into not moving on. It's a win on both sides, IMO. I mean, I wouldn't have blamed her if she did have difficulty moving on, but that is not supported in the text at all. 

 

Yep, it's bad as well which is why I think he stopped dangling his feelings when Felicity rebuffed him with a quick roll of the eyes. He stopped until he was sure he wanted to be with her (I think he really did want to be with her in episode 9 which is why he said what he said). 

 

I think episode 7 showed Felicity struggling to move on when she cried when Oliver shut her down again in episode 7 as well as episode 4 of the Flash. She struggled a bit, and even when she kissed Ray I feel like she was struggling. Not because Oliver was dangling maybes but because she loved him and it's hard to move on from the people you love. But that didn't stop Felicity from trying when she and Ray kissed in episode 7. 

 

I wouldn't say Felicity pursued Ray until episode 15, though. 

[BkWurm1]

He never gave her any "maybes" about someday they could be together, or maybe it would work out at some point. He told her he couldn't be with her in that hallway,

It was about them though when Felicity immediately told him to then say it was never going to work out between them. She then also said the thing about say you never loved me and stop dangling maybes to which Oliver answered it all with don't make him say he never loved her.

[apinknightmare]

I think episode 7 showed Felicity struggling to move on when she cried when Oliver shut her down again in episode 7 as well as episode 4 of the Flash. She struggled a bit, and even when she kissed Ray I feel like she was struggling. Not because Oliver was dangling maybes but because she loved him and it's hard to move on from the people you love. But that didn't stop Felicity from trying when she and Ray kissed in episode 7. 

 

I wouldn't say Felicity pursued Ray until episode 15, though. 

 

I get what you're saying. I don't think that was her struggling to move on so much as it being difficult wanting something and hearing again that she can't have it. Prior to that in the same episode she even told Diggle that if Oliver had a problem with what she was doing then he needed to be the one to say it. Kinda seemed like she was over his bullshit even before that scene with Cutter. 

 

And yeah, she didn't fully pursue Ray until 15, but that wasn't because of anything Oliver did IMO. She would've started something with Ray in ep 7 if he hadn't run out on her after he kissed her. 

[lemotomato]

How 3x07 could have been:

 

How it really went:

 

I don't think Oliver needs to be perfect, that would be more unrealistic than the Lazarus Pit, but he was giving her some serious double messages this season, until 313 when he dropped her completely.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, because from your "could have been" scenario, you did want Oliver to respond perfectly in both instances. Those responses would have been really mature even from an emotionally healthy man that's trying to hide his feelings about a woman he loved. If there's one thing Oliver totally isn't, it's emotionally healthy. But that doesn't mean he's saying this stuff on purpose. And Felicity didn't have to put up with it if she didn't think she could handle it, but from what I saw, she was compartmentalizing pretty well, in 3A, at least.

 

And I'm pretty sure she dumped him for good in 3x12

[apinknightmare]

[quite]He never gave her any "maybes" about someday they could be together, or maybe it would work out at some point. He told her he couldn't be with her in that hallway,

It was about them though when Felicity immediately told him to then say it was never going to work out between them. She then also said the thing about say you never loved me and stop dangling maybes to which Oliver answered it all with don't make him say he never loved her.

 

True, he couldn't make himself say it would never work out between them, and he couldn't deny that he loved her. But at the end of their conversation in the hallway, after Felicity said that she told him once they talked it would be over, she followed through with that and he didn't dangle a single maybe. He doubled-down on the "I can't be with you" talk. So I still don't get why she would've been hoping things would be different, because he never gave her any indication that they would be after that night.

Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

But he didn't say that specifically about their relationship, he was talking about being both parts of himself. In any event, after he said that, she told him to stop dangling those maybes, and he did. After their talk in the hospital, he never gave her any reason to hope that he would change his mind, and in 3x07 when he thought she was moving on with Ray, he doubled down on it and told her he couldn't be with her again. I just don't see where he gave her any thread of hope to hang onto that would've made it difficult for her to move on. At all. 

He stopped verbally dangling maybes but he continued to give her mixed messages. 307 is an example of that:  Felicity wanted just one night off for a business dinner but he couldn't give her even that.  Oliver's insistence that she prioritize his mission over her job and what she wanted to do would have sent her the message that he wants her to be there for him above everyone else, even if he did say "do what you want".  Because he didn't let her do it in the end.

 

I have to say that Diggle didn't help here, going to Felicity at work and telling her that the dinner with Palmer was messing with Oliver's head, the subtext being that Oliver is jealous.  All these things made it difficult (imo impossible) for Felicity to move on.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree, because from your "could have been" scenario, you did want Oliver to respond perfectly in both instances. Those responses would have been really mature even from an emotionally healthy man that's trying to hide his feelings about a woman he loved. If there's one thing Oliver totally isn't, it's emotionally healthy. But that doesn't mean he's saying this stuff on purpose. And Felicity didn't have to put up with it if she didn't think she could handle it, but from what I saw, she was compartmentalizing pretty well, in 3A, at least.

 

And I'm pretty sure she dumped him for good in 3x12

Oh, I agree, he wasn't saying that stuff on purpose and I don't expect him to be perfect. But from Felicity's standpoint, he was continuing to give her mixed messages, telling her how important she was to him and how much he cared for her at the same time as he was pushing her away.  Intermittent reinforcement is the hardest way to stop a behaviour.

 

In 312, she was angry but underneath that anger was a plea to explain this all to her, to be the man she thought he was, the one who told her he loved her just before he left, after she had calmed down.  Kinda of like when someone says "I hate you" they really mean "tell me you love me after all".  But Oliver stopped trying to talk to her after that.

 

I think she dumped him for good in 315 when he shut her out of every important conversation since his return, in other words telling her completely that she was just one of the team like Laurel or Roy.   That was the point at which she had no more  hope of them being together and so she started something with Ray.

 

 

She would've started something with Ray in ep 7 if he hadn't run out on her after he kissed her.

But she was freaked out by Ray saying he wanted to save the city for her (or however he said it) in 311.  I think kissing Ray was balm to her hurt soul after what she had heard from Oliver but I don't think she would have started a relationship with him that early. But we'll never know.

[apinknightmare]

He stopped verbally dangling maybes but he continued to give her mixed messages. 307 is an example of that:  Felicity wanted just one night off for a business dinner but he couldn't give her even that.  Oliver's insistence that she prioritize his mission over her job and what she wanted to do would have sent her the message that he wants her to be there for him above everyone else, even if he did say "do what you want".  Because he didn't let her do it in the end.

 

He did though. He bristled at her taking time off for the dinner (and that was more about him having difficulty accepting that she was moving on - as he admitted to Diggle - than wanting her to prioritize their mission over her private life IMO), but he didn't try to stop her or say anything about it other than his terse, "do what you want." Even though Oliver asked about her while she was gone and indicated that he needed her help to catch Cutter, Diggle was the one who contacted her for help while she was out to dinner with Ray, not Oliver. So yeah, I agree with you that about Diggle not being helpful in that situation, but I don't think Oliver sent her any mixed messages there. 

 

 

But she was freaked out by Ray saying he wanted to save the city for her (or however he said it) in 311.  I think kissing Ray was balm to her hurt soul after what she had heard from Oliver but I don't think she would have started a relationship with him that early. But we'll never know.

 

This is true!

[BkWurm1]

True, he couldn't make himself say it would never work out between them, and he couldn't deny that he loved her. But at the end of their conversation in the hallway, after Felicity said that she told him once they talked it would be over, she followed through with that and he didn't dangle a single maybe. He doubled-down on the "I can't be with you" talk. So I still don't get why she would've been hoping things would be different, because he never gave her any indication that they would be after that night.

From my standpoint, the maybes once dangled, stayed dangled since her requirement for no dangled maybes (at this point I'm enjoying myself too much each time I type dangled) was for Oliver to change his "not now, maybe not ever" to "they could never be together".  Of course the issue is that HE and SHE wants to be together so unless someone is dead (which now requires the kind of proof that includes holding a severed head) the maybes really never go away for either of them which is why although I can try to dissect when what where and when, in the end, I'm not upset with either of them.  

Edited June 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

This whole conversation is only reminding me why I hate love triangle storylines with the fire of 10,000 burning suns--inevitably fans are forced to take sides for or against one of the characters involved and the lasting effect manifests itself in the form of endless debates like this. Not that I'm blaming/criticizing anyone for having an opinion--discuss away--it makes me hate MG & Co. for subjecting us to such tired, lazy-ass writing to begin with.

It seriously wasn't even a well written love triangle or will they/won't they/when will they trope. It was just crap! Which makes it all the more infuriating :(

[wonderwall]

I think Oliver and Thea are close, albeit with an advantage. I'd like Felicity and Thea but I actually would prefer Thea be closer to Laurel.

 

The advantage that they're siblings? :p They'll always have that edge. 

 

I'd like Thea and Felicity to bond, but I don't need them to be as close as Oliver is with Diggle. And I don't really care about Laurel enough to care about her relationship with Thea tbh. But I do think that they're going to bond when they're saving the city while Oliver/Felicity are gone though. MG did say Laurel's a full fledged member of TA now so I'm sure we'll be seeing her interact more with everyone... I wonder how that will work out. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the writers/KC convince me that Laurel can mesh well with TA.

[wingster55]

 

The advantage that they're siblings? :p They'll always have that edge. 

 

I'd like Thea and Felicity to bond, but I don't need them to be as close as Oliver is with Diggle. And I don't really care about Laurel enough to care about her relationship with Thea tbh. But I do think that they're going to bond when they're saving the city while Oliver/Felicity are gone though. MG did say Laurel's a full fledged member of TA now so I'm sure we'll be seeing her interact more with everyone... I wonder how that will work out. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the writers/KC convince me that Laurel can mesh well with TA.

That's the one. And I think they'll have Thea and Laurel fully integrated with Diggle..or maybe it's just them. Diggle may be a part timer or something. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't always hate love triangles.  But in this case, people loved Oliver and Felicity and Oliver+Felicity enough that the third leg, coming in in the third season, really had to be something special.  There's a really good fic in which Felicity not only dates but ends up with Dick Grayson, and I am totally fine with it, because Dick Grayson is awesome in the fic and Felicity is totally herself, which is what Dick loves about her.  

 

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1398274/chapters/2930767

 

This was a terrible love triangle, truly terrible, because not only was the third leg, Ray terrible, but he actually made Felicity unrecognizable and IMO terrible.  Like he didn't love what made her awesome, he took away what made her awesome.

Edited June 15, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wingster55]

because Dick Grayson is awesome in the fic

 

Well he's awesome in general so..no surprise

[wonderwall]

That's the one. And I think they'll have Thea and Laurel fully integrated with Diggle..or maybe it's just them. Diggle may be a part timer or something. 

I'd rather Thea and Diggle bond and have Laurel be a part timer. She has Nyssa to kick ass with. I'd just love for Diggle to be Thea's mentor and friend while Oliver/Felicity are gone. 

[wingster55]

If Nyssa is hanging around Starling I can accept this. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I'd rather Thea and Diggle bond and have Laurel be a part timer. She has Nyssa to kick ass with. I'd just love for Diggle to be Thea's mentor and friend while Oliver/Felicity are gone.

I agree. When everyone thought Oliver was lost to them, it was Diggle, not Laurel, who stepped in to comfort Thea. He is a protector and everyone's rock. Also, he'd make a much better mentor than Laurel, who is still so new. It would be great if Diggle and Thea grew closer so that she could help him repair his relationship with Oliver. Thea is a living reminder of the love and sacrifice that were ultimately at the root of Oliver's boneheaded decisions. I think she could cajole Diggle into at least hearing Oliver's apologies.

My great wish for S4 is for LL to be the floater between shows. But, even if she remains on Arrow, I think she needs to be autonomous instead of a fully integrated member of TA. I think allowing her to operate independently honors BC's comic legacy. Also, I think she could be an unwelcome cog in many of the relationships I'm invested in. I don't want her interfering in Oliver and Diggle's relationship--she has not earned that!--and I could see her trying to insinuate herself between OQ/TQ, OQ/FS, and FS/TQ. I don't really see her as a threat to any of those relationships, just an annoyance for lack of anything better to do. I really wouldn't be able to stomach LL giving either OQ or FS relationship advice--it was nauseating when she did that with OQ and SL.

[wonderwall]

If Nyssa is hanging around Starling I can accept this. 

I don't think she has anything better to do? :p It's not like she's going to go back to NP with Malcolm and it's not like she can have sexy times with Sara... not yet anyways :/ I definitely think she'll be hanging around in Starling. 

 

I think I'd prefer if there were two teams. Laurel/Nyssa would make one team and Thea/Diggle would make another. Each team could go on their own missions and occasionally go on missions together when they need to. 

[wingster55]

And hell...why not have Nyssa also train Thea?

and I could see her trying to insinuate herself between OQ/TQ, OQ/FS, and FS/TQ

 

I don't think she's that kind of person. Plus, honestly she has the strong relationship with Thea at this point (over Felicity) 

I've always liked the Laurel-Thea friendship anyways

[EmeraldArcher]

And hell...why not have Nyssa also train Thea?

I don't think she's that kind of person. Plus, honestly she has the strong relationship with Thea at this point (over Felicity) 

I've always liked the Laurel-Thea friendship anyways

Well, the last time Oliver was gone, Laurel forced her way onto his team and managed to have every member of TA (Diggle, Felicity, and Roy) take her side against Oliver, even though he was right about his concerns. Then, when Oliver joined LoA, she and Diggle seemed to gang up on a grieving Felicity. Also, she made use of TA's friendship with Team Flash (although she wasn't part of that relationship at all) to get Cisco to make the Canary Cry device.

Part of the reason I dread her interference is because she still acts as if she is one of the most important people in Oliver's life, that she still knows him best, that she has more right to be the maddest with him, etc. It was obvious even after Oliver was in a relationship with Sara--Laurel was the one giving them relationship counseling, and she was the one claiming she knew him better than anyone--who he was in his bones--even though she totally failed to pick up on his double life.

I agree that Laurel is much closer to Thea than Felicity is. Their friendship was established in S1. However, it would be natural for Thea to want to bond with her brother's partner. I guess I just don't trust the writers to be able to handle Thea being friends with both women gracefully.

[dtissagirl]

Well, the last time Oliver was gone, Laurel forced her way onto his team and managed to have every member of TA (Diggle, Felicity, and Roy) take her side against Oliver, even though he was right about his concerns. Then, when Oliver joined LoA, she and Diggle seemed to gang up on a grieving Felicity. Also, she made use of TA's friendship with Team Flash (although she wasn't part of that relationship at all) to get Cisco to make the Canary Cry device.

Part of the reason I dread her interference is because she still acts as if she is one of the most important people in Oliver's life, that she still knows him best, that she has more right to be the maddest with him, etc. It was obvious even after Oliver was in a relationship with Sara--Laurel was the one giving them relationship counseling, and she was the one claiming she knew him better than anyone--who he was in his bones--even though she totally failed to pick up on his double life.

Seeing all of that listed is pretty interesting to me, because I too often feel like Laurel is intruding, but I'm also pretty sure it's not intentional. They're not writing her as an intruder, it's just that I [and you. And probably others] perceive her that way.

The explanation I arrive at for this is that I honestly don't know what Laurel's narrative role is anymore. Everyone else on Team Arrow? I understand their narrative roles wrt to their relationship with Oliver. I mean, Laurel is right now same as Dig/Roy/Thea in the role of fighting muscle on Team Arrow, but those three have clear narrative roles as part of Oliver's life. Brother in arms, apprentice, sister. But I don't know who Laurel is to Oliver other than his ex that's still hanging around? And imo, Stephen Amell acts like Oliver doesn't seem to want to be around Laurel if he can avoid it, which only ends up lampshading the fact that she's hanging around a dude who seems to not want her there.

And hey, I also don't think any of this is in the text, it's all perception, but I can barely speculate on what I'd hope for Laurel in S4, and in her relationships with the other characters, because I don't understand her place in the narrative. Why is she more muscle than laywer? Why does she want to be part of Team Arrow? What does she want with Oliver? I have no idea, and I feel like the show doesn't have any either.

[dtissagirl]

I should be sleeping, but I'm not, so here, have more thoughts on understanding narrative roles:

Comparing Laurel to Palmer in S3 makes sense to me, because he IS an intruder. He's written as an intruder, who's there to steal Oliver's company, Oliver's girl, and to have the dual vigilante-healthy human being life Oliver is convinced he can't have. So I might loathe Palmer, and I might think his storyline was a colossal mistake, but I understand his narrative role. I understand what he represents to Oliver and Felicity. I didn't believe in the acting [same with Laurel for me], and I thought it was legit dumb to keep him separated from the A plot, but I knew what the text was trying to do with him.

Laurel feels like an intruder when she isn't written that way, and as I mentioned above, I cannot pinpoint what her role in the story is, which doesn't feel like a simple writing failure like Palmer was. It feels like an structural failure.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Seeing all of that listed is pretty interesting to me, because I too often feel like Laurel is intruding, but I'm also pretty sure it's not intentional. They're not writing her as an intruder, it's just that I [and you. And probably others] perceive her that way.

The explanation I arrive at for this is that I honestly don't know what Laurel's narrative role is anymore. Everyone else on Team Arrow? I understand their narrative roles wrt to their relationship with Oliver. I mean, Laurel is right now same as Dig/Roy/Thea in the role of fighting muscle on Team Arrow, but those three have clear narrative roles as part of Oliver's life. Brother in arms, apprentice, sister. But I don't know who Laurel is to Oliver other than his ex that's still hanging around? And imo, Stephen Amell acts like Oliver doesn't seem to want to be around Laurel if he can avoid it, which only ends up lampshading the fact that she's hanging around a dude who seems to not want her there.

And hey, I also don't think any of this is in the text, it's all perception, but I can barely speculate on what I'd hope for Laurel in S4, and in her relationships with the other characters, because I don't understand her place in the narrative. Why is she more muscle than laywer? Why does she want to be part of Team Arrow? What does she want with Oliver? I have no idea, and I feel like the show doesn't have any either.

 

Responding to this on the LL thread with a link to a post from Examiner.com reviewer Laura Hurley on Tumblr.

[EmeraldArcher]

The explanation I arrive at for this is that I honestly don't know what Laurel's narrative role is anymore. Everyone else on Team Arrow? I understand their narrative roles wrt to their relationship with Oliver. I mean, Laurel is right now same as Dig/Roy/Thea in the role of fighting muscle on Team Arrow, but those three have clear narrative roles as part of Oliver's life. Brother in arms, apprentice, sister. But I don't know who Laurel is to Oliver other than his ex that's still hanging around? And imo, Stephen Amell acts like Oliver doesn't seem to want to be around Laurel if he can avoid it, which only ends up lampshading the fact that she's hanging around a dude who seems to not want her there.

And hey, I also don't think any of this is in the text, it's all perception, but I can barely speculate on what I'd hope for Laurel in S4, and in her relationships with the other characters, because I don't understand her place in the narrative. Why is she more muscle than laywer? Why does she want to be part of Team Arrow? What does she want with Oliver? I have no idea, and I feel like the show doesn't have any either.

I agree with you that the uncertainty about her place in the narrative is problematic. For me, it also makes a lot of what she does suspect. In reply to my first post, wingster said that he/she doesn't think Laurel is the type of person to interfere in relationships in the way I suggested. I can concede that the writers probably don't see that as one of her character traits. However, they've had to find Some Way to make her continued presence relevant, so they've inserted her in relationships where she really didn't have a place. Seriously, they even had Felicity question why Laurel would call her--"Are we favor friends?" If she is supposed to be integrated into these relationships, other characters shouldn't be voicing doubts.

Her continued orbit around Oliver is confusing. They didn't work as a couple, and their friendship didn't really resonate either, especially during S3. Their very best interaction was in "The Calm," when she surprised him with her dad's speech about the Arrow. I have no idea what to expect from her in S4 except that it won't seem organic.

[quarks]

I don't think the show needs to have a competition between Felicity and Laurel to see who will be Thea's best friend. Laurel and Thea have known each other for years and have an established friendship.  Felicity will be part of Thea's family. 

[kismet]

Diggle should be the mentor of team arrow newbies (thea & laurel). It makes sense on a tactical, logical & emotional level. Tq & ll bonding together more as new crime fighters makes sense. I just want healthy female/female relationships. I hope they don't make a competition between the 3 main females on the show. Until they post a new cast listing, I'm gonna assume that Nyssa is still guest star which means her screen time will be limited and probably not in sc. So they may reference off camera training, but I doubt we'll see Nyssa train anyone.

[lemotomato]

Part of the reason I dread her interference is because she still acts as if she is one of the most important people in Oliver's life, that she still knows him best, that she has more right to be the maddest with him, etc. It was obvious even after Oliver was in a relationship with Sara--Laurel was the one giving them relationship counseling, and she was the one claiming she knew him better than anyone--who he was in his bones--even though she totally failed to pick up on his double life.

This, I think, is partially due to KC's... unique interpretation of Laurel and her current relationship with Oliver. As of Feb 2015, she still calls Laurel and Oliver soulmates, and even thinks that "everybody loves the Oliver/Felicity/Laurel triangle that is going on". So the reason why Laurel still acts like she's Oliver's recent ex-girlfriend/best friend (even though in season 3 he's in love with someone else and treats Laurel like an old friend he cares about but is no longer close to) is because KC is playing her that way.

Edited June 15, 2015 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

As you know, I've been following Laura Hurley's tumblr postings recently and came across this interesting (and apt) analogy about OQ's romances...

Oliver Queen around Laurel and Helena and McKenna was James Bond. He was charming and grand and looked damn good in a tuxedo to the extent that it was hard to blame the ladies for falling for him…but they didn’t fit as permanent fixtures in the life that he chose for himself. He’s fundamentally transient. James Bond works for decades of standalone feature films, but he doesn’t work for a serial television show. 

 

Oliver Queen around Felicity is Han Solo. He’s roguish and has a rough past and isn’t particularly great at coming up with cover stories, but he has a good heart and a loyal streak twelve parsecs wide. He has friends and a purpose and eyes for only one girl. Han Solo is fun to watch and certainly fun to look at, but he’s also a nuanced character with a journey. Han Solo can work on television.

Awsome Laura! This Q is about surprises. When I decided to watch Arrow,...
Jun 14, 2015 12:03 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/121512571355/awsome-laura-this-q-is-about-surprises-when-i

 

To be clear, I am not taking Hurley's writings as gospel.  What she says are just her opinions.  I happen to agree with a lot, but not all, of what she writes.  Others will disagree.

Edited June 15, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

I kind of agree but I think he was getting there with McKenna too. It ended too quick imo.

And his relationship With Sara was something else. A bit of both. Probably cause she saw the worst of both Ollie and his transitional changed Oliver. But they shared too much of the bad to really be able to share the light. Though over time I could have seen that change of not for Laurel. As is Oliver and Sara could never have become permanent because Ollie still did cheat on Laurel with Sara. Still yuck no matter what.

Edited June 15, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

Even if I take Laurel out of the equation, imo Oliver was already having serious ~deep~ feelings for Felicity in S2 [and sublimating/repressing the hell out of them] while he was with Sara. And I think Sara would eventually wise up to that, if she weren't already. I mean, when she broke up with him she told him he needed someone to bring out the light in his life, and then later in 301 told him he needed someone without a mask. I'm still not sure those lines meant Sara was seeing the Oliver/Felicity thing happening, of it they were left to interpretation, because they sound almost too anvilistic to me, if that's possible.

Edited June 15, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Password]

I'm still not sure those lines meant Sara was seeing the Oliver/Felicity thing happening, of it they were left to interpretation, because they sound almost too anvilistic to me, if that's possible.

If anything, there is no WAY her words were about Laurel. Nope, no, nuh uh.

...which confused me at the time. But now it's clearer.

[Sakura12]

Well, Sara did tell Laurel that Oliver needs her, when her family happily sent her off to be a serial killer again. But I'm going to fanwank she meant that he needs a Lawyer.

 

I think what I love that even Paul Blackthrone has no idea why Laurel would put on a mask. He understood why Sara became a vigilante, because in his mind she was the athletic, adventurous, risk taker and more because of what happened to her. He never thought Laurel was "destined for the mask". When the actor playing the father of the character doesn't understand why Laurel suddenly became Black Canary, there is an issue in the EP's storytelling. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

I was talking about how Sara as a character and history as well as actor chemistry with SA&Oliver could have been a perfect alternative to tell an Arrow and Canary on&off relationship story. If the show had wanted to tell a more organic Lawyer to Mask story for Laurel as Manhunter.

But Laurel does exist so you can't remove her from Sara and Ollie. Sara wanted to fix her relationship with Laurel. She was afraid because of all the hurt and was using Oliver as a sort of cruch.

Sara was using Oliver to shield her heart and have soneone share in the pain they caused her family. As well as someone to comfort her body if not her soul. Which is what she's actually craving.

And I do think Sara felt Oliver and Felicity's connection. At least Felicity's with Oliver. Though the no mask could have been about Laurel at time as well. Though imo it was more about Sara not being able to be her true self and was in no position to be in a relationship. She wanted something better for her friend Oliver.

[dtissagirl]

If anything, there is no WAY her words were about Laurel. Nope, no, nuh uh.

...which confused me at the time. But now it's clearer.

 

Well, Sara went, "we are not our masks and you need people in your life that don't wear them", and then Laurel put on a mask, so even if Sara meant Laurel, Laurel took herself out of the possibility of it being her? Logic!

[Password]

Well, Sara went, "we are not our masks and you need people in your life that don't wear them", and then Laurel put on a mask, so even if Sara meant Laurel, Laurel took herself out of the possibility of it being her? Logic!

Ah yeah I meant the "someone who harnesses your light" thing. That is DEFINITELY not Laurel. It became clearer this season.

[Morrigan2575]

Ah yeah I meant the "someone who harnesses your light" thing. That is DEFINITELY not Laurel. It became clearer this season.

I remember back on TWOP loads of discussion and debates over the Light line in S2.  People saying Sara totally meant Felicity she even looked back at where Felicity was standing.  Others saying she didn't mean Felicity it was just shipper baiting or shippers being delusional.

 

I would say that if 223 didn't confirm that Sara meant Felicity, 301 did.  Given what was being set up at the end of S2 and throughout S3 I don't think there's any doubt that Felicity was the light in that discussion, despite what Lauriver shippers are holding onto (or at least were in 223 and over the summer).

Edited June 15, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

I guess we can also find out what Sara meant when she comes back from the dead and finds out that Oliver and Felicity are together. 

[wingster55]

Sara's line in 301 is confusing in a number of ways..or mainly in that...I wouldn't call Nyssa a "light" or someone who doesn't wear a mask. I mean literally she doesn't but she's as dangerous as Sara and Oliver.

[Genki]

Sara's line in 301 is confusing in a number of ways..or mainly in that...I wouldn't call Nyssa a "light" or someone who doesn't wear a mask. I mean literally she doesn't but she's as dangerous as Sara and Oliver.

 

I got the feeling that she and Nyssa were having issues, from that line...

But after killing Sara off, I guess it was just an anvil.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Genki

[wonderwall]

Sara's line in 301 is confusing in a number of ways..or mainly in that...I wouldn't call Nyssa a "light" or someone who doesn't wear a mask. I mean literally she doesn't but she's as dangerous as Sara and Oliver.

I think Sara meant it in a general sense because at that point, she had Laurel and Quentin. Sure she wasn't WITH them but from the premier it seemed as though her and Laurel did talk and stuff while she was gone. 

[doesntworkonwood]

I feel like Sara puts herself in a very different league to Oliver. What she believes Oliver deserves is not necessarily what she believes she deserves. 

 

I think Sara feels like she's too far gone and at a point that Oliver didn't reach. Oliver's had a tough life, but Sara has arguably had it much worse. Her entire storyline was about that. There was an implication that she had been raped, and joining the league of assassins can't have been easy for her. 

 

I think that as a result of that, she believes that Oliver deserves a 'light', but she doesn't. She believes that Oliver deserves someone who wont hide behind a mask but she doesn't. 

 

I also wouldn't put Nyssa in a masked category emotionally. Physically, yes she does go out and fight, but she's never really hidden her identity from anyone. She introduces herself as 'Heir to the Demon', so she's not like Oliver, Felicity, Diggle etc in that everyone who knows her knows who she is and what she does.

[Sakura12]

Laurel talks at people, not to them. Unless of course they are telling her she's a savior of the world or how she's so much better than her dead sister. 

 

Laurel didn't do anything to honor Sara's memory in her arc to becoming Black Canary. She just got excited to be called Black Canary and have Cisco fanboy over her. If he did that to Sara, she would've told him she wasn't a hero or anyone to celebrate. Laurel wasn't even honoring Sara's mission which was to save people that needed saving. Laurel was all about wanting to be called a hero to help her self worth. 

[Chaser]

CL said that she thought Sara would probably not be very happy with Laurel when she came back. I agree, but the show may say otherwise.

 

Has anyone actually said that Sara would be proud of Laurel or that Laurel is honoring her memory? I know that vertigo Laurel got the nod from fake Sara in Canaries, but I didn't watch the episode so I'm not sure if there was more.

[Sakura12]

"She goes from avenging her sister to honoring her sister to then becoming her sister," says Cassidy. "Then she goes to doing it for the right reasons, from something within her.

 

The EP's and KC have said that Laurel's arc to becoming BC was to avenge/honor Sara. Then she starts doing it because it quenches the fire in her or something. Although interesting enough it was never about wanting to actually help people because it's the right thing to do. It's all about making Laurel feel better about herself. 

 

That's what Sara should be mad at. Laurel stole her name, then used it for her own personal gain. Flailing around like an idiot, pretending to be her also tarnished Sara's skill level. How was that honoring her or avenging her? The woman in black named the Canary could take out 3 common street thugs in about 2 seconds. Laurel got her ass kicked in that time. 

[Chaser]

I know that the 'honoring her sister' thing was the company line in interviews. But has anyone acknowledged it in-show? Like Nyssa or Oliver, since they were the ones that knew every side of Sara.

 

Lance spit black Canary at Laurel. I don't remember Oliver talking to her about Sara after she became BC (I only know of the argument when he called her an addict). Nyssa and Laurel talked about Sara, but did Nyssa ever say that she thought Sara would feel proud of Laurel or honored by her actions?

[wingster55]

 

I think that as a result of that, she believes that Oliver deserves a 'light', but she doesn't. She believes that Oliver deserves someone who wont hide behind a mask but she doesn't.

I'd rather this than Sara's last words to Oliver being specifically about Felicity. Like "hey buddy, you deserve happiness regardless of who you choose". Because, yes... Sara would say "buddy" 

[wonderwall]

I'd rather this than Sara's last words to Oliver being specifically about Felicity. Like "hey buddy, you deserve happiness regardless of who you choose". Because, yes... Sara would say "buddy" 

Definitely. I think Felicity was a part of it, but not all of it. I think Sara meant that Oliver needs people in his life who don't wear a mask meaning: Felicity in a romantic sense, Thea in a familial sense, Diggle also in a familial sense, and maybe even Laurel in a friendly sense. She told Oliver not to become JUST the Arrow because that won't bring him happiness. He needs to let people in in order for him to be happy, which is what she wants for him. And I think Oliver learned that lesson the hard way. 

 

People who don't wear masks are a way to ground Oliver, which is why it's important for him to have those people in his life. This is why I'm really pissed that everyone on the show except for Felicity are getting masks. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

Definitely. I think Felicity was a part of it, but not all of it. I think Sara meant that Oliver needs people in his life who don't wear a mask meaning: Felicity in a romantic sense, Thea in a familial sense, Diggle also in a familial sense, and maybe even Laurel in a friendly sense. She told Oliver not to become JUST the Arrow because that won't bring him happiness. He needs to let people in in order for him to be happy, which is what she wants for him. And I think Oliver learned that lesson the hard way. 

 

Sucks for him that next season 

Felicity will be the only one who doesn't wear a mask.

It really is ridiculous at this point.

[wonderwall]

Sucks for him that next season 

Felicity will be the only one who doesn't wear a mask.

It really is ridiculous at this point.

 

Basically. I mean this pretty much locks Felicity in for the rest of the series if she's the only one without a mask... It makes her the least expendable considering she 1) doesn't have a mask 2) has an expertise that no one else has. Lmao poor fanboys who hate her. Otherwise this will be a show where all people do is wear masks and kick ass. *sigh*

 

I feel like the show is marginalizing Oliver even more by having literally everyone get masks. IDK I find the amount of masks annoying. There needs to be more of a balance and the show screwed the pooch with that.