Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

By painting Varys as a For The People saint, Dany looks like a tyrant who's persecuting the People's proxy.

Precisely. Much character continuity is not only astoundingly bad but worse, it's an insult to the viewer imo.

[ursula]

I mean the show blatantly retconned Jon's decision to bend the knee (figuratively mind - we've never seen him literally bend the knee to Dany and it's deliberate).

Sam asked Jon if Dany would give up his crown like Jon did ---- when Jon blatantly did not! He went to Dragonstone, asked for help and Dany offered it on that condition and he refused. And he kept refusing. And it took Dany losing a dragon and the stupid wight hunt before he agreed to do so.

But the story has now been completely retconned as Jon - Saint Jon - bending the knee as payment for Dany's help, while Evil Dany insisted on the North surrendering before agreeing to help. 

And I call it a retcon instead of Jon blatantly lying because it's presented as a fact in this season. It's not being questioned or challenged by anyone in the narrative. 

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

There has been much justifying of the North et al's dismissive treatment of Dany and her troops. I absolutely agree they don't have to feel it but they have to show it, however, that never happened. She was treated with icy disdain and barely concealed contempt and mistrust. The smart thing to do for anyone who had an agenda would've been to befriend the Dragon Queen and make that friendliness work to your advantage, no matter your true inner feelings. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Sure--Dany knows that Sansa doesn't like her and where has that gotten Sansa? Everything she says is taken with suspicion (often for good reason) and Jon feels like he has to overcompensate to make up for it etc. For the people of the North it probably doesn't matter that they aren't cheering etc. because they feel like they're just stuck with a southern ruler as usual and don't feel any need to hide it. 

31 minutes ago, ursula said:

Isn't this basically what Dany said? Sansa (and Northern Lords in general) didn't have to like her but they had to respect her. 

Fealty isn't about feelings. Ned was disgusted with Robert at several points in his tenure-ship - from when he accepted the brutal murders of the Targaryen children, to when he insisted on sending assassins after Dany - but he still bent the knee and gave him the respect of King. 

Didn't Dany say they had to respect her *as their queen?* So we are talking about fealty as a feeling. She already has that as a reality since Jon bent the knee, just as Cersei has it in King's Landing. If Dany's on the IT the North will have to pay taxes to her or whatever. Ned did feel that Robert was his rightful king (but he rebelled against king on the throne), but the North he was living in was different than the one now.

This seems especially important for Dany as a character because she sees herself as a person coming to bring peace and joy to the realm. She says she wants a world where people live in peace without fear etc. She wants to be looked on as the breaker of chains who might be hated by tyrants but is loved by her people. So there's an obvious conflict when she's faced with people who don't want to be ruled by her when she's telling them she's going to rule them. 

[Meredith Quill]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure--Dany knows that Sansa doesn't like her and where has that gotten Sansa? Everything she says is taken with suspicion (often for good reason) and Jon feels like he has to overcompensate to make up for it etc.

Exactly. Nevermind smart, it wasn't a wise choice by any stretch of the imagination for the reason you state.

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So there's an obvious conflict when she's faced with people who don't want to be ruled by her when she's telling them she's going to rule them. 

To quote Tyrion to Dany: No monarch/ruler ever had the love of all the people.

I honestly don't see Dany demanding adoration, *she may desire that and to be seen as a good ruler, but I don't see her demanding it by any means and it would be completely unreasonable of her to do so. Demanding basic respect, civility and fealty from subjects, yes she can demand that as their Queen (as designated by their former King).

*whether she deserves it is another question and something she would have to earn over time through her actions. Even then, some will never feel that, others may and would. 

You can't please all of the people all of the time, heh.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean the show blatantly retconned Jon's decision to bend the knee (figuratively mind - we've never seen him literally bend the knee to Dany and it's deliberate).

Sam asked Jon if Dany would give up his crown like Jon did ---- when Jon blatantly did not! He went to Dragonstone, asked for help and Dany offered it on that condition and he refused. And he kept refusing. And it took Dany losing a dragon and the stupid wight hunt before he agreed to do so.

But the story has now been completely retconned as Jon - Saint Jon - bending the knee as payment for Dany's help, while Evil Dany insisted on the North surrendering before agreeing to help. 

And I call it a retcon instead of Jon blatantly lying because it's presented as a fact in this season. It's not being questioned or challenged by anyone in the narrative. 

Good point. The retconned version would make Jon's knee bending easier to sell to the North, but it also makes Dany look my like an opportunist and less like a benevolent defender of the North and the Realm. 

The true story might have led to a rebellion in the North against Jon and a rejection of Dany's help, which would have been terrible for the North and the Realm.

The retconned story probably smoothed thing over between the Northerners and Jon, but makes it more difficult for Dany to win the hearts and minds of the North.    

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

To quote Tyrion to Dany: No monarch/ruler ever had the love of all the people.

I honestly don't see Dany demanding adoration, *she may desire that and to be seen as a good ruler, but I don't see her demanding it by any means and it would be completely unreasonable of her to do so. Demanding basic respect, civility and fealty from subjects, yes she can demand that as their Queen (as designated by their former King).

She's not demanding adoration, but demanding fealty seems to be the issue here. The North was already in rebellion against the IT. They see her a foreigner coming to rule them and that is exactly what she is, however good of a queen she might be. She can demand it as their queen, but their genuine reaction seems to be "Well, I didn't vote for you."

[ursula]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Didn't Dany say they had to respect her *as their queen?* So we are talking about fealty as a feeling. She already has that as a reality since Jon bent the knee, just as Cersei has it in King's Landing. If Dany's on the IT the North will have to pay taxes to her or whatever. Ned did feel that Robert was his rightful king (but he rebelled against king on the throne), but the North he was living in was different than the one now.

What does asking for respect "as a Queen" have to do with feelings?  Robb Stark, when he was still just the son of Lord Eddard Stark, demanded no less from his bannermen. Same as every Lord or King in this story. But when Dany asks to be spoken to and treated with the respect due to a Queen, it's because she's upset that people don't like her? 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The retconned story probably smoothed thing over between the Northerners and Jon, but makes it more difficult for Dany to win the hearts and minds of the North.    

I would have believed this was an in-story political "rephrasing" if not for 2 things: Jon could have privately told Sansa during the meeting they did have. It would have redirected Sansa's resentment of Dany to Jon. Secondly, isn't Jon's entire shtick that he's too Honest for Politics? He couldn't lie to Cersei during the Wight Summit even though it compromised their treaty. He couldn't keep a secret from his family even though it literally would cost Dany her life. But now he can lie to the entire North about the reasons he bent the knee? 

Edited May 9, 2019 by ursula

[Meredith Quill]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She's not demanding adoration, but demanding fealty seems to be the issue here. The North was already in rebellion against the IT. They see her a foreigner coming to rule them and that is exactly what she is, however good of a queen she might be. She can demand it as their queen, but their genuine reaction seems to be "Well, I didn't vote for you."

I would counter that the North ceased being in rebellion the moment The King in the North bent the knee to the Dragon Queen. Together, their goal is to depose Cersei. Nobody else gets a vote and never has considering they live in a feudal society and that's all they've ever known; they must know they have to abide by their (now former) King's decision.

Additionally, to pre-empt any counter arguments about the KiTN. Jon wasn't voted in as KiTN, he was 'proclaimed' King and those in the room assented by cheering. That isn't a democratic vote system.

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She's not demanding adoration, but demanding fealty seems to be the issue here. The North was already in rebellion against the IT. They see her a foreigner coming to rule them and that is exactly what she is, however good of a queen she might be. She can demand it as their queen, but their genuine reaction seems to be "Well, I didn't vote for you."

Nobody votes for anyone in this world which is why this line of argument is just disingenuous. I mean by that argument, Sansa's and Jon's war against the Boltons was down-voted by the Northern Lords they asked for help ---- and I'm pretty sure that the smallfolk who were actually recruited to do the fighting weren't excited about fighting another war. The Starks weren't ever voted as Kings in the North, they just beat back enough rivals enough times and hard enough that they were left unopposed. No one sure as hell "voted" a 10 year old girl as ruler of Bear Island, no matter how bad-ass she is. So the way the standards always shift into Modern conventions for Dany is exasperating. 

[dreamcatcher]

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I would counter that the North ceased being in rebellion the moment The King in the North bent the knee. Nobody else gets a vote, it isn't a democracy and they have to follow their (now former) King's lead.

Honestly, this is why i don’t understand the North’s reaction to Jon vs Dany. Dany came to westeros to make her claim as Queen of the 7 kingdoms. She had no reason to give North their independence. Jon knew that the North chose to make Robb the first KITN after centuries as they didn’t want to be ruled by the IT anymore. When they were freed from the Boltons, they made him KITN, not “lord of winterfell”. Jon was the one who betrayed them because he fell for Dany. She isn’t at fault here.

[GraceK]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She's not demanding adoration, but demanding fealty seems to be the issue here. The North was already in rebellion against the IT. They see her a foreigner coming to rule them and that is exactly what she is, however good of a queen she might be. She can demand it as their queen, but their genuine reaction seems to be "Well, I didn't vote for you."

This is not fair. Jon bent the knee. He, as King in the north, assured her of their fealty and pledged his forces to her after the war for the Dawn was over. The fandom is acting likes she’s unreasonable to expect that the North should see her as the Queen when Jon told her she was!!! She told him she would fight alongside him and kill the NK together, he’s the one that insisted on bending the knee and swearing fealty to her. He promised her that the North would aid her in her fight for the Iron Throne , that she was his Queen, that they would love her as he did. So when she shows up, with her armies, and Dragons, with confidence and every intention of helping and the assurance that they will accept her, because Jon told her they would, how is she the bad guy when they don’t? Why is she the bad guy when Sansa wants independence and tells her to her face that the North will never bend the knee again? That’s not the deal she made. And deals are made all the time on this Show, why is Dany supposed to suddenly be like “ Sure dude  , I mean, your brother promised me something different, but fuck it?”.  When has that happened on this show? Would Tywin do that? Would Catelyn Stark? Would Robb stark? Would Tyrion? Hell,  Tyrion was the one who didn’t want her to let Yara be Queen of the Iron islands! And Yara, if you remember, came to her and pledged fealty and said she would aid her and support her in her war against Cersei, and in return, Dany said  the iron islands would have independence and Dany would help her. Sansa made no such overture. People are acting like Dany just swooped and demanded the North bow to her, forgetting she was INVITED, and that it was her soldiers, and her people, and her dragons on the frontlines. And herself as well. Of course she expects the same in return.

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[Meredith Quill]

18 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Honestly, this is why i don’t understand the North’s reaction to Jon vs Dany. Dany came to westeros to make her claim as Queen of the 7 kingdoms. She had no reason to give North their independence. Jon knew that the North chose to make Robb the first KITN after centuries as they didn’t want to be ruled by the IT anymore. When they were freed from the Boltons, they made him KITN, not “lord of winterfell”. Jon was the one who betrayed them because he fell for Dany. She isn’t at fault here.

If anything, as you put it that way, it could reasonably be argued that Jon's actions fucked it all up for everyone:

• He went to Dragonstone to ask for help that the North didn't really need (the AOTD was stuck behind the Wall).
• He bent the knee and in doing so gave the North to Dany after Dany had agreed to help.
• He didn't voice any objection to the idiotic plan to go on a wight hunt and instead decided to actually lead said hunt.
• He convinced Dany he needed her help so urgently that she should postpone her own plans.

I'm sure there's more but I currently have a headache.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

What does asking for respect "as a Queen" have to do with feelings?  Robb Stark, when he was still just the son of Lord Eddard Stark, demanded no less from his bannermen. Same as every Lord or King in this story. But when Dany asks to be spoken to and treated with the respect due to a Queen, it's because she's upset that people don't like her? 

People don't treat their kings and queens with respect 100%. It's not like anybody's walking up to Dany and spitting in her face. Robb and Jon have both been openly challenged and disrespected to their face when they were KitN.

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

I would have believed this was an in-story political "rephrasing" if not for 2 things: Jon could have privately told Sansa during the meeting they did have. It would have redirected Sansa's resentment of Dany to Jon. Secondly, isn't Jon's entire shtick that he's too Honest for Politics? He couldn't lie to Cersei during the Wight Summit even though it compromised their treaty. He couldn't keep a secret from his family even though it literally would cost Dany her life. But now he can lie to the entire North about the reasons he bent the knee? 

I could only hope that we're not meant to think that Jon lied to them, it's just how the North sees it regardless. I mean, he left and came back with the knee bent and with her help. So the North sees it as something he had to do. In reality Jon personally wanted to pledge loyalty and obviously still does, but his people are unruly and salty and resent it, as iirc Lyanna said.

Just now, SilverStormm said:

I would counter that the North ceased being in rebellion the moment The King in the North bent the knee. Nobody else gets a vote, it isn't a democracy and they have to follow their (now former) King's lead.

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I didn't mean they literally thought they got the vote. I was quoting Monty Python in the scene with the Marxist peasants: "I am your king." "Well, I didn't vote for ya." Followed by "You don't vote for kings."

I was just using the line to describe the North's general bitchface attitude, not trying to say that Dany was illegitimate because she wasn't voted for.

That gets back to the whole "fealty as a feeling" thing because the North is sending troops with Dany to take the throne. Nobody's actually treating her like she's not the queen. Even Sansa might be openly saying "We don't want to be ruled by the south" but she's talking to Dany about it as if this is something in Dany's power to grant or not grant, because she's the queen.

So what exactly is missing here for Dany? What are people not doing that means they're not respecting her as queen besides it seeming like they see her as a foreigner they don't trust who wants to rule them? The whole concept of royalty being any sort of a right only exists if people believe in it.

5 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

Jon was the one who betrayed them because he fell for Dany. She isn’t at fault here.

Yes, Jon is at fault. But they still don't want to be ruled by Dany so they'd still resent her. 

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

This is not fair. Jon bent the knee. He, as King in the north, assured her of their fealty and pledged his forces to her after the war for the Dawn was over. The fandom is acting likes she’s unreasonable to expect that the North should see her as the Queen when Jon told her she was!!! 

No, I don't think it's that she's unreasonable for her to expect the North to see her as queen in the sense that Jon pledged the North to her. The North *does* see her as queen in the sense that Jon bent the knee to her. She has that. The North knows she's their queen. They just don't want her to be, and isn't that the whole issue? Even Sansa isn't denying she's the one with authority over the North as of now. 

The North is marching south with her to take the Iron Throne, so they haven't reneged on that promise either.

I did not call her the bad guy in any of this. 

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

And deals are made all the time on this Show, why is Dany supposed to suddenly be like “ Sure dude  , I mean, your brother promised me something different, but fuck it?”.  When has that happened? Would Tywin do that? Would Tyrion?

No, they probably wouldn't. Tywin certainly wouldn't. Tywin would say it was too fucking bad if they didn't want him as king because their ruler made a deal and he got them in it. And how differently do you imagine the North would act toward Tywin in this case? They're acting the way they'd act in that situation with just about anybody--though they'd probably dislike Tywin a lot less.

There's no counter narrative on the show or in the audience for how Dany got here where she's accused of tricking Jon into it or invading the North by force. There seems to be no question in the North that Dany *is* their ruler because of this and so they'll be paying taxes to her eventually etc. They're certainly not refusing to help her take the throne according to the deal. The only problem seems to be their continued obvious desire to be independent.

Would it make more sense for them to put more focus on Jon as the person who betrayed them by giving them to Dany? Sure. Maybe it's just plot favoritism that has given Jon more of a pass for this than he should be getting. But even if they did resent Jon more for it, it wouldn't make them embrace Dany more warmly. Their anger at him would just be yet another way they were hostile to her.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

People don't treat their kings and queens with respect 100%. It's not like anybody's walking up to Dany and spitting in her face. Robb and Jon have both been openly challenged and disrespected to their face when they were KitN.

I could only hope that we're not meant to think that Jon lied to them, it's just how the North sees it regardless. I mean, he left and came back with the knee bent and with her help. So the North sees it as something he had to do. In reality Jon personally wanted to pledge loyalty and obviously still does, but his people are unruly and salty and resent it, as iirc Lyanna said.

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I didn't mean they literally thought they got the vote. I was quoting Monty Python in the scene with the Marxist peasants: "I am your king." "Well, I didn't vote for ya." Followed by "You don't vote for kings."

I was just using the line to describe the North's general bitchface attitude, not trying to say that Dany was illegitimate because she wasn't voted for.

That gets back to the whole "fealty as a feeling" thing because the North is sending troops with Dany to take the throne. Nobody's actually treating her like she's not the queen. Even Sansa might be openly saying "We don't want to be ruled by the south" but she's talking to Dany about it as if this is something in Dany's power to grant or not grant, because she's the queen.

So what exactly is missing here for Dany? What are people not doing that means they're not respecting her as queen besides it seeming like they see her as a foreigner they don't trust who wants to rule them? The whole concept of royalty being any sort of a right only exists if people believe in it.

Yes, Jon is at fault. But they still don't want to be ruled by Dany so they'd still resent her. 

No, I don't think it's that she's unreasonable for her to expect the North to see her as queen in the sense that Jon pledged the North to her. The North *does* see her as queen in the sense that Jon bent the knee to her. She has that. The North knows she's their queen. They just don't want her to be, and isn't that the whole issue? Even Sansa isn't denying she's the one with authority over the North as of now. 

The North is marching south with her to take the Iron Throne, so they haven't reneged on that promise either.

I did not call her the bad guy in any of this. 

No, they probably wouldn't. Tywin certainly wouldn't. Tywin would say it was too fucking bad if they didn't want him as king because their ruler made a deal and he got them in it. And how differently do you imagine the North would act toward Tywin in this case? They're acting the way they'd act in that situation with just about anybody--though they'd probably dislike Tywin a lot less.

There's no counter narrative on the show or in the audience for how Dany got here where she's accused of tricking Jon into it or invading the North by force. There seems to be no question in the North that Dany *is* their ruler because of this and so they'll be paying taxes to her eventually etc. They're certainly not refusing to help her take the throne according to the deal. The only problem seems to be their continued obvious desire to be independent.

Would it make more sense for them to put more focus on Jon as the person who betrayed them by giving them to Dany? Sure. Maybe it's just plot favoritism that has given Jon more of a pass for this than he should be getting. But even if they did resent Jon more for it, it wouldn't make them embrace Dany more warmly. Their anger at him would just be yet another way they were hostile to her.

Actually, the North doesn’t even seem to be hostile to Daenerys anymore. They were in the first two episodes, but after the battle of Winterfell? They seem fine. Even Yohn Royce was cheering her in the great hall when Gendry was named a Baratheon.  It’s purely Sansa at this point who hates her and keeps insisting on independence, and that’s the problem . The North seems just fine Actually not being bothered. They existed quite happily under Ned and the Targaryens ( pre aerys burning Brandon etc) and really only suffered once he was beheaded and the War of the five Kings started. I don’t see them insisting on independence, just Sansa for her own sake. Again, the fandom is insisting that Dany is being a tyrant for refusing the North their independence, but they are not even asking for it. Who is really the power hungry one here ?

[ursula]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

People don't treat their kings and queens with respect 100%. It's not like anybody's walking up to Dany and spitting in her face. Robb and Jon have both been openly challenged and disrespected to their face when they were KitN.

Robb wasn't King in the North when he threatened to strip Umber of titles and land as an "oathbreaker" because Umber challenged him.

Do you honestly believe that Robert would have stood for the attitude that Sansa showed Dany?

(I don't count Jon because his crowning was firmly in the "fan service" part of this series, where D & D had gone off rails and were writing their own fanfiction. Nothing about his crowning made sense and at least the show's been consistent in depicting him as an unearned King).

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I could only hope that we're not meant to think that Jon lied to them, it's just how the North sees it regardless.

If the North sees it that way and Jon makes no effort to correct - not even contradicting Sam when he says pointblank that Jon "Gave up his crown" for the greater good, then it makes Jon the worst kind of liar. 

But my point isn't that Jon is lying. My point is that the show has re-written its own history and is presenting it (to us, the audience) as fact that Jon gave up his crown for Dany's help. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by ursula

[Meredith Quill]

I think the issue is a simple one. There's a canyon sized gulf of various attitudes ranging from adoration to barely concealed contempt.

No reasonable person would posit that Dany should have expected or received adoration or people falling to their knees in awe and wonder. However, icy disdain, mistrust, contemptuous manner verging on insolence to your monarch isn't called for, acceptable or wise. I think unwelcoming is a good overall description of the reception that was given from the moment she arrived, whereas it should've been at worst, neutrality and at best (and wisest if you want royal favours like independence) warm and welcoming. I believe that is the heart of the matter here.

[GraceK]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

I think the issue is a simple one. There's a canyon sized gulf of various attitudes ranging from adoration to barely concealed contempt.

No reasonable person would posit that Dany should have expected or received adoration or people falling to their knees in awe and wonder. However, icy disdain, mistrust, contemptuous manner verging on insolence to your monarch isn't called for, acceptable or wise. I think unwelcoming is a good overall description of the reception that was given from the moment she arrived, whereas it should've been at worst, neutrality and at best (and wisest if you want royal favours like independence) warm and welcoming. I believe that is the heart of the matter here.

Exactly.  It’s no wonder that except  for the most rabid of Dany Haters, most of the fandom  has now rallied around her. This season has seriously done her such an injustice, and her fall as been so heartbreaking and unfair that’s it no wonder people are angry.

[dreamcatcher]

36 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

If anything, as you put it that way, it could reasonably be argued that Jon' actions fucked it all up for everyone:

• He went to Dragonstone to ask for help that the North didn't really need (the AOTD was stuck behind the Wall).
• He bent the knee and in doing so gave the North to Dany after Dany had agreed to help.
• He didn't voice any objection to the idiotic plan to go on a wight hunt and instead decided to actually lead said hunt.
• He convinced Dany he needed her help so urgently that she should postpone her own plans.

I'm sure there's more but I currently have a headache.

And yet, he is hailed as hero. I actually like Dany, Jon and Sansa all for different reasons. But we’ve been rooting for Dany for so long and suddenly we’re told she is awful and mad when we don’t see it, but Jon keeps making mistakes and we’re told he’s a hero. If they had dealt with Cersei when Dany still had her whole army and 3 dragons, they would have even more soldiers to fight the NK. It was Jon’s idea to go on a hunt to convince Cersei to help. It was Jon’s fault Cersei got the idea to let the North be killed instead of helping them and then having them stand by Dany. I don’t fault her for thinkinh just that: either we all die, or just you die and I suffer no losses. The only “bad” thing Dany did since coming to Westeros was burning the Tarlys. But do people forget that these bastards had just betrayed the house they sweared an oath to? To help the Lannisters of all people? And they had the chance to bend the knee to the Queen with the Dragons and chose not to. Don’t tell me they didn’t want to betray the house they served considering they just did the same to the Tyrells...

Edited May 9, 2019 by dreamcatcher

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s purely Sansa at this point who hates her and keeps insisting on independence, and that’s the problem .

Again, the fandom is insisting that Dany is being a tyrant for refusing the North their independence, but they are not even asking for it. Who is really the power hungry one here ?

Bingo.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, dreamcatcher said:

It was Jon’s idea to go on a hunt to convince Cersei to help.

Much as I'm happy to put blame at Jon's feet for many things, the wight hunt was Tyrion's idea. 😉

[dreamcatcher]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

Much as I'm happy to put blame at Jon's feet for many things, the wight hunt was Tyrion's idea. 😉

Right, I forgot that! Sorry Jon, you’re slightly less stupid!

[ursula]

1 minute ago, dreamcatcher said:

It was Jon’s idea to go on a hunt to convince Cersei to help. It was Jon’s fault Cersei got the idea to let the North be killed instead of helping them and then having them stand by Dany. I don’t fault her for thinkinh just that: either we all die, or just you die and I suffer no losses. The only “bad” thing Dany did since coming to Westeros was burning the Tarlys. But do people forget that these bastards had just betrayed the house they sweared an oath to? To help the Lannisters of all people? And they had the chance to bend the knee to the Queen with the Dragons and chose not to. Don’t tell me they didn’t want to betray the house they served considering they just did the same to the Tyrells...

Well technically it was Tyrion's idea* to perform the wight hunt. (Just as it was his idea not to storm King's Landing immediately, not to hunt down Euron's ships and burn them, to send the Unsullied to Casterly Rock, etc).

But I agree with everything else.

The Tarly thing is nonsensical because the Tarlys were Targaryen loyalists who fought on their side during the Rebellion. With Dany showing up in Westeros with dragons, armies and a clear victory ahead, this was the time for them to rally to her side and demand/expect some reward for their previous fealty. Even Tarly's rant - that Dany wasn't born in Westeros - is nonsensical because she was. Then I'm not even touching Sam being moved to hatred over the death of a father was literally threatened to kill him or a brother who passively accepted Sam's own abuse over the years.

Dany offering the Tarlys the Black was generous by every depiction of warfare we've seen in this world. Robb Stark cut off Lord Karstark's head because he killed Lannister soldiers. As Alys Karstark asked Jon in the books - "I don't understand! I thought we were fighting the war to kill Lannisters." Of course that led to him losing Karstark's army but no one called him mad!tyrant!evil! just too "righteous". Basically Robb's decision was depicted as morally right but politically wrong. Dany does the same thing in far more extenuating circumstances (the Tyrells killed her ally, and their own sworn liege lord) and she's crazy.

*and honestly, this show would be so much much better if Tyrion had been undermining Dany deliberately instead of just giving her bad advice after bad advice and yet somehow, miraculously still being depicted as the Good, Sane Advisor managing the Mad Queen who doesn't listen to him.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, GraceK said:

Actually, the North doesn’t even seem to be hostile to Daenerys anymore. They were in the first two episodes, but after the battle of Winterfell? They seem fine. Even Yohn Royce was cheering her in the great hall when Gendry was named a Baratheon.  It’s purely Sansa at this point who hates her and keeps insisting on independence, and that’s the problem . The North seems just fine Actually not being bothered. They existed quite happily under Ned and the Targaryens ( pre aerys burning Brandon etc) and really only suffered once he was beheaded and the War of the five Kings started. I don’t see them insisting on independence, just Sansa for her own sake. Again, the fandom is insisting that Dany is being a tyrant for refusing the North their independence, but they are not even asking for it. Who is really the power hungry one here ?

I think the show's done enough to establish that Sansa is reflecting the basic North opinion with her attitude, except that Sansa also has personal issues. Nobody including Sansa is talking about raising an army to fight against Dany and they don't hate her. They're not refusing to fight for her down south. But unless we're told the North has had a big change of attitude, something that the show seemed to specifically show they had not in the last ep, I think they would still rather be independent and remain distrustful of foreign rule. They haven't come around to embracing the dragon queen as their queen. If that had happened the banquet would have taken pains to show Sansa isolated rather than Dany. 

I don't think these scenes showed Dany as a tyrant for not granting the North independence but they did obviously show her as an outsider who still considered herself the rightful ruler (rightful in a spiritual sense, not just a legal one). It does seem like sometimes it gets glossed over how lofty a goal ruling 7 kingdoms is, even compared to other goals. 

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I think unwelcoming is a good overall description of the reception that was given from the moment she arrived, whereas it should've been at worst, neutrality and at best (and wisest if you want royal favours like independence) warm and welcoming. I believe that is the heart of the matter here.

Yes, which is why it seems to me that Sansa's own more personal mistrust isn't supposed to be at odds with the rest of the North, who seems to have a reputation for being like this even in general with outsiders, as I think Cersei mentioned. Whether or not we think this was a good way to write it, it seemed pretty clearly stated. 

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Exactly.  It’s no wonder that except  for the most rabid of Dany Haters, most of the fandom  has now rallied around her.

Not sure what rallied around her here means. 

[Spartan Girl]

So am I the only one that thinks Kit and Emilia and Kit do have okay chemistry? On Emilia's side if nothing else, because Dany looks at Jon with the same dewy eyes that she gives her dragons. 

I know there's probably not going to be a happy end for those two, but I can't help thinking how cute they are together. I do wish the show tried to build on their relationship more, perhaps given us a post-Boatsex scene where Dany got to be more vulnerable and open about her crappy childhood and Jon told her about Winterfell right before they arrived. That would have been nice.

For all the talk about Dany wanting to "dominate" Jon, I think part of the attraction was that how he neither was fawning over her beauty nor intimidated by the haughty queen attitude. While she acted annoyed that he wouldn't bend the knee right away, I think she might have secretly found it hot. At least that's my headcanon.

[GraceK]

Just now, Spartan Girl said:

So am I the only one that thinks Kit and Emilia and Kit do have okay chemistry? On Emilia's side if nothing else, because Dany looks at Jon with the same dewy eyes that she gives her dragons. 

I know there's probably not going to be a happy end for those two, but I can't help thinking how cute they are together. I do wish the show tried to build on their relationship more, perhaps given us a post-Boatsex scene where Dany got to be more vulnerable and open about her crappy childhood and Jon told her about Winterfell right before they arrived. That would have been nice.

For all the talk about Dany wanting to "dominate" Jon, I think part of the attraction was that how he neither was fawning over her beauty nor intimidated by the haughty queen attitude. While she acted annoyed that he wouldn't bend the knee right away, I think she might have secretly found it hot. At least that's my headcanon.

I agree. He pretty much almost ripped her clothes off last episode until he remembered they were related. 😂 

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

So am I the only one that thinks Kit and Emilia and Kit do have okay chemistry? On Emilia's side if nothing else, because Dany looks at Jon with the same dewy eyes that she gives her dragons. 

I think Kit could "bring it" more. But I don't think it's because a lack of chemistry between the two of them but the direction that they must have been given. From the kiss in 8.04, it's clear that they can generate passionate "encounters" if asked to, so why haven't they always? Their love story has always been depicted as one-sided (see Jorah looking back when they leave Dragonstone, but Jon doesn't) with Dany giving more into the relationship than she gets back. (Jon literally brings nothing into this relationship, actually.) And it's clear now that this was deliberate. It's even underlined in her conversation with Sansa - "I left my war to help Jon, so who's manipulating whom?"* D & D wanted the "classic" story of a powerful woman being "ruined" by falling in love with a man. 

*Not that I think that Jon is manipulating Dany. That would mean writing him as a character with a spine, even a malicious one... and not their "I Just Keeping Falling Upwards" self-insert. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by ursula

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

I think Kit could "bring it" more. But I don't think it's because a lack of chemistry between the two of them but the direction that they must have been given. From the kiss in 8.04, it's clear that they can generate passionate "encounters" if asked to, so why haven't they always? Their love story has always been depicted as one-sided (see Jorah looking back when they leave Dragonstone, but Jon doesn't) with Dany giving more into the relationship than she gets back. (Jon literally brings nothing into this relationship, actually.) And it's clear now that this was deliberate. D & D wanted the "classic" story of a powerful woman being "ruined" by falling in love with a man. 

It sucks. He has ruined her life. God this is so wrong on so many levels. No wonder Drogon was giving him the stink eye in the first episode!

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, ursula said:

What does asking for respect "as a Queen" have to do with feelings?  Robb Stark, when he was still just the son of Lord Eddard Stark, demanded no less from his bannermen. Same as every Lord or King in this story. But when Dany asks to be spoken to and treated with the respect due to a Queen, it's because she's upset that people don't like her? 

I would have believed this was an in-story political "rephrasing" if not for 2 things: Jon could have privately told Sansa during the meeting they did have. It would have redirected Sansa's resentment of Dany to Jon. Secondly, isn't Jon's entire shtick that he's too Honest for Politics? He couldn't lie to Cersei during the Wight Summit even though it compromised their treaty. He couldn't keep a secret from his family even though it literally would cost Dany her life. But now he can lie to the entire North about the reasons he bent the knee? 

All good points.  His "I had no other choice!" claim seem out of character for Honest Jon. 

I guess he did lie to the Wildlings, but he was working undercover at the time.  Maybe Dany should have told him he was working undercover posing as the Stark bastard. 

[Bryce Lynch]

58 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

People don't treat their kings and queens with respect 100%. It's not like anybody's walking up to Dany and spitting in her face. Robb and Jon have both been openly challenged and disrespected to their face when they were KitN.

I could only hope that we're not meant to think that Jon lied to them, it's just how the North sees it regardless. I mean, he left and came back with the knee bent and with her help. So the North sees it as something he had to do. In reality Jon personally wanted to pledge loyalty and obviously still does, but his people are unruly and salty and resent it, as iirc Lyanna said.

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I didn't mean they literally thought they got the vote. I was quoting Monty Python in the scene with the Marxist peasants: "I am your king." "Well, I didn't vote for ya." Followed by "You don't vote for kings."

I was just using the line to describe the North's general bitchface attitude, not trying to say that Dany was illegitimate because she wasn't voted for.

That gets back to the whole "fealty as a feeling" thing because the North is sending troops with Dany to take the throne. Nobody's actually treating her like she's not the queen. Even Sansa might be openly saying "We don't want to be ruled by the south" but she's talking to Dany about it as if this is something in Dany's power to grant or not grant, because she's the queen.

So what exactly is missing here for Dany? What are people not doing that means they're not respecting her as queen besides it seeming like they see her as a foreigner they don't trust who wants to rule them? The whole concept of royalty being any sort of a right only exists if people believe in it.

Yes, Jon is at fault. But they still don't want to be ruled by Dany so they'd still resent her. 

No, I don't think it's that she's unreasonable for her to expect the North to see her as queen in the sense that Jon pledged the North to her. The North *does* see her as queen in the sense that Jon bent the knee to her. She has that. The North knows she's their queen. They just don't want her to be, and isn't that the whole issue? Even Sansa isn't denying she's the one with authority over the North as of now. 

The North is marching south with her to take the Iron Throne, so they haven't reneged on that promise either.

I did not call her the bad guy in any of this. 

No, they probably wouldn't. Tywin certainly wouldn't. Tywin would say it was too fucking bad if they didn't want him as king because their ruler made a deal and he got them in it. And how differently do you imagine the North would act toward Tywin in this case? They're acting the way they'd act in that situation with just about anybody--though they'd probably dislike Tywin a lot less.

There's no counter narrative on the show or in the audience for how Dany got here where she's accused of tricking Jon into it or invading the North by force. There seems to be no question in the North that Dany *is* their ruler because of this and so they'll be paying taxes to her eventually etc. They're certainly not refusing to help her take the throne according to the deal. The only problem seems to be their continued obvious desire to be independent.

Would it make more sense for them to put more focus on Jon as the person who betrayed them by giving them to Dany? Sure. Maybe it's just plot favoritism that has given Jon more of a pass for this than he should be getting. But even if they did resent Jon more for it, it wouldn't make them embrace Dany more warmly. Their anger at him would just be yet another way they were hostile to her.

Jon repeatedly told Sansa and others, "I had no other choice." than to bend the knee because the North needed Dany's troops and dragons to have any hope against the NK.

But, Dany had already given up he knee bending demand and had agreed to commit all her forces to fight the NK before he bent the knee.  He bent the knee out of gratitude, admiration and love towards Dany.  That reason makes Jon look weaker to the North and Dany look more noble.    Jon's version makes him look stronger and Dany look less noble and trustworthy.  

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon repeatedly told Sansa and others, "I had no other choice." than to bend the knee because the North needed Dany's troops and dragons to have any hope against the NK.

But, Dany had already given up he knee bending demand and had agreed to commit all her forces to fight the NK before he bent the knee.  He bent the knee out of gratitude, admiration and love towards Dany.  That reason makes Jon look weaker to the North and Dany look more noble.    Jon's version makes him look stronger and Dany look less noble and trustworthy.  

That's right! I forgot. I don't know why the show did that. It makes no sense. If they wanted him to have been forced into it they should have written it differently. Having Jon lie about it is completely OOC and makes him seem embarrassed or something. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's right! I forgot. I don't know why the show did that. It makes no sense. If they wanted him to have been forced into it they should have written it differently. Having Jon lie about it is completely OOC and makes him seem embarrassed or something. 

I think maybe Jon was thinking, "How am I going to explain to Lady Mormont that I bent the knee to some wannabe Dragon Queen, about 5 minutes after she got me crowned King in the North?  She's going to yell at me and say mean, but true, things about me. "

It was a tough spot for Jon.  I think bending the knee was the right decision and what is best for the North, but it was politically unpopular because the people really didn't understand.  They hadn't seen the NK and looked into his eyes and they didn't know Daenerys.  

[GraceK]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think maybe Jon was thinking, "How am I going to explain to Lady Mormont that I bent the knee to some wannabe Dragon Queen, about 5 minutes after she got me crowned King in the North?  She's going to yell at me and say mean, but true, things about me. "

It was a tough spot for Jon.  I think bending the knee was the right decision and what is best for the North, but it was politically unpopular because the people really didn't understand.  They hadn't seen the NK and looked into his eyes and they didn't know Daenerys.  

That makes him weak.  He doesn’t deserve Daenerys . Drogo would make mincemeat out of him. Seriously what a downgrade.

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They hadn't seen the NK and looked into his eyes and they didn't know Daenerys.  

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[GraceK]

Seriously it’s no wonder Drogon has survived so long. Paula Fairchild is the one who does the editing , sound and CGI for the Dragons on the show, and she said she always envisions Drogon as a reincarnation of Khal Drogo and that’s how she edits him. His close bond, protection and fierceness makes sense when you think of it that way. He truly loves her and will burn cities to the ground and keep her safe with his life. He has actually. In comparison to Jon who can’t even defend her against his sister, who can’t even offer comfort...Dany has given Jon more support , love and safety then he has ever given her. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[ursula]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know why the show did that. It makes no sense.

It makes sense if the narrative is determined to demonise Dany. Make her look like an irrational monster for thinking politics when Jon comes with his demands even though he's the one clinging to his throne while claiming that thrones don't matter. Don't actually have Jon bend the knee (literally and figuratively) at her demands because that would make him, the man, look "weak". Make her then look lowkey evil and manipulative in the North because Jon could "give up his crown" but she can't. Also make her look incompetent next to Saint Sansa who is talking about Northern Independence with AOTD at the gate, and wants to know what happens after the War... but when Dany did that in season 7, she was being ambitious and irrational for not being more concerned about the AOTD than her own claims.

Considering how eagerly her hate-dom have lapped up all the outright contradictory narrative (seriously, people are blaming Dany for "forgetting about Euron's fleet" and being "blinded by ambition" so she literally did not see an armada from overhead....), D & D  knew exactly what they were doing.

[Chiny11]

54 minutes ago, ursula said:

I think Kit could "bring it" more. But I don't think it's because a lack of chemistry between the two of them but the direction that they must have been given. From the kiss in 8.04, it's clear that they can generate passionate "encounters" if asked to, so why haven't they always? Their love story has always been depicted as one-sided (see Jorah looking back when they leave Dragonstone, but Jon doesn't) with Dany giving more into the relationship than she gets back. (Jon literally brings nothing into this relationship, actually.) And it's clear now that this was deliberate. It's even underlined in her conversation with Sansa - "I left my war to help Jon, so who's manipulating whom?"* D & D wanted the "classic" story of a powerful woman being "ruined" by falling in love with a man. 

*Not that I think that Jon is manipulating Dany. That would mean writing him as a character with a spine, even a malicious one... and not their "I Just Keeping Falling Upwards" self-insert. 

In addition, he has never said he loves her.  She has said it twice.  So yeah...Dany seems to giving more.

Hey maybe "political Jon" is actually a real thing. 🤷‍♀️

Edited May 9, 2019 by Chiny11

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, ursula said:

It makes sense if the narrative is determined to demonise Dany.

But this particular thing doesn't even demonize her. If they wanted to demonize her just have her insist on his bending the knee. Instead they have her agree to help and then he just goes weak in the knees and pledges himself and then lies about it. The audience knows what actually happened. We already know that Jon would give up a crown for the people while Dany might not. That's baked in from the start.

[glowbug]

I think there are glimmers of chemistry between them but for the most part it’s lacking for me (chemistry is highly subjective so I can’t speak for anyone else). They have always had chemistry at their photo shoots and during candid shots but it is not translating onscreen, especially on Kit Harrington’s side. 

Here is a photo shoot they did for Rollingstone Magazine between seasons 1 and 2:

https://www.boredpanda.com/game-of-thrones-stars-photo-shoot-rolling-stone/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Here is the video:

Here is a photo shoot for EW from 2013:

https://ew.com/gallery/game-thrones-new-portraits/amp/

I thought it was because of Rose Leslie but I’ve seen the chemistry between them when Rose was also at the photo shoots. Neither of them are good enough actors to get over their awkwardness, I guess. I think Emilia is better at projecting Dany’s feelings for Jon but she’s not getting anything back from him. I think Kit is a much better comedic actor than a dramatic actor. He seems uncomfortable in dramatic roles from what I’ve seen. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I agree. He pretty much almost ripped her clothes off last episode until he remembered they were related. 😂 

LOL yeah. Although I felt bad for Dany at that part. I know it's tough to get over the fact that she's his aunt, but dammit she'd already had a bad day/night before getting rejected like that. I do understand her wanting for them to go back to the way they were before Sam told him. It's really sad that she's in the same old dilemma: power or love but not both.

1 hour ago, ursula said:

D & D wanted the "classic" story of a powerful woman being "ruined" by falling in love with a man. 

Bingo. Which really sucks.

41 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Seriously it’s no wonder Drogon has survived so long. Paula Fairchild is the one who does the editing , sound and CGI for the Dragons on the show, and she said she always envisions Drogon as a reincarnation of Khal Drogo and that’s how she edits him. His close bond, protection and fierceness makes sense when you think of it that way. He truly loves her and will burn cities to the ground and keep her safe with his life. He has actually. In comparison to Jon who can’t even defend her against his sister, who can’t even offer comfort...Dany has given Jon more support , love and safety then he has ever given her. 

Yeah, but let's not forget that Drogo raped her at first. Which is yet another change from the books that is frustrating because in the book, Drogo was sensitive and gentle towards her on the first night. It's one of the better sex scenes in the books, and it's a shame D and D had to change that because Emilia and Jason could have done a fabulous job with the original version.

But yeah, Drogo killed one of his soldiers for lashing out at Dany, and Jon caved and told Sansa and Arya his secret when Dany begged him not to. I'm hoping he at least tries to offer some comfort and support to Dany in the next episode...but my hopes are not high.

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

LOL yeah. Although I felt bad for Dany at that part. I know it's tough to get over the fact that she's his aunt, but dammit she'd already had a bad day/night before getting rejected like that. I do understand her wanting for them to go back to the way they were before Sam told him. It's really sad that she's in the same old dilemma: power or love but not both.

Bingo. Which really sucks.

Yeah, but let's not forget that Drogo raped her at first. Which is yet another change from the books that is frustrating because in the book, Drogo was sensitive and gentle towards her on the first night. It's one of the better sex scenes in the books, and it's a shame D and D had to change that because Emilia and Jason could have done a fabulous job with the original version.

But yeah, Drogo killed one of his soldiers for lashing out at Dany, and Jon caved and told Sansa and Arya his secret when Dany begged him not to. I'm hoping he at least tries to offer some comfort and support to Dany in the next episode...but my hopes are not high.

Problematic issues aside, Drogo is a thousand times better than Jon. Call me whatever names you want, but Drogo not only loved her , he protected, respected, and killed all those who threatened her. That vision of him and her unborn son in the House of The Undying still makes me cry. He would never leave her open to attack like this.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

If they wanted to demonize her just have her insist on his bending the knee. 

<Insert Oprah shrug gif>

And what happened in season 8? What narrative is being pushed as what actually happened? 🤷

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

By painting Varys as a For The People saint, Dany looks like a tyrant who's persecuting the People's proxy.

More like Varys the blatant hypocrite.  He didn't think Ned Stark was fit for the throne, and Jon's practically a carbon copy of him.  Besides, Jon doesn't even want the throne.

[GraceK]

Jenny of oldstones is pretty freaking heartbreaking in retrospect now when you apply it to Daenerys 😭😭😭😭😭

[ursula]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Jenny of oldstones is pretty freaking heartbreaking in retrospect now when you apply it to Daenerys 😭😭😭😭😭

I didn't pay attention to the lyrics but do to mean "woman getting ruined by love"? Because... Ugh. Who thought that in this day and age, writing a Cleopatra-esque (Elizabeth Taylor version) of a smart woman being "seduced" into failing was a good idea?

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

I didn't pay attention to the lyrics but do to mean "woman getting ruined by love"? Because... Ugh. Who thought that in this day and age, writing a Cleopatra-esque (Elizabeth Taylor version) of a smart woman being "seduced" into failing was a good idea?

High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Jenny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found
And the ones who had loved her the most

The ones who'd been gone for so very long
She couldn't remember their names
They spun her around on the damp old stones
Spun away all her sorrow and pain

And she never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave

They danced through the day
And into the night through the snow that swept through the hall
From winter to summer then winter again
'Til the walls did crumble and fall

And she never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
And she never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave

High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Jenny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found
And the ones
Who had loved her the most

To me, the lyrics are more about loss and being surrounded by memories. Literal ghosts even, like Jorah.It’s horrible in light of everything Dany has lost this season, especially sitting in Winterfell and knowing it’s coming North that caused a lot of it. Also, it fits the slip into despair and “ madness” themes that they are pushing for her. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by GraceK

[ursula]

Damn.

[rmontro]

31 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, it fits the slip into despair and “ madness” themes that they are pushing for her. 

Nice catch, there is some context there.  I thought they had just slipped the song in.

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think there are glimmers of chemistry between them but for the most part it’s lacking for me (chemistry is highly subjective so I can’t speak for anyone else). They have always had chemistry at their photo shoots and during candid shots but it is not translating onscreen, especially on Kit Harrington’s side. 

Here is a photo shoot they did for Rollingstone Magazine between seasons 1 and 2:

https://www.boredpanda.com/game-of-thrones-stars-photo-shoot-rolling-stone/?utm_source=google&amp;utm_medium=organic&amp;utm_campaign=organic

Here is the video:

Here is a photo shoot for EW from 2013:

https://ew.com/gallery/game-thrones-new-portraits/amp/

I thought it was because of Rose Leslie but I’ve seen the chemistry between them when Rose was also at the photo shoots. Neither of them are good enough actors to get over their awkwardness, I guess. I think Emilia is better at projecting Dany’s feelings for Jon but she’s not getting anything back from him. I think Kit is a much better comedic actor than a dramatic actor. He seems uncomfortable in dramatic roles from what I’ve seen. 

I love love love this photo! They are both so happy, and Emilia is adorable. I was so excited about her meeting Jon, and when they fell in love I was stoked, but not too stoked, since he had this stupid birth history thing.

I couldn't believe one interview where either Emilia or Harington said he had to wipe his mouth and make gagging sounds so Rose Leslie wouldn't feel threatened. No wonder his love scenes with Dany fall flat.

[rmontro]

Wow, those photos are fantastic.  Ah, to be young and good looking, lol.

I get the impression these days with the Jon Snow/Dany scenes that she is on board the love train, but Jon is conflicted and squicked out about her being his aunt.  It doesn't matter to her because she was raised expecting to marry her brother.  He'll probably "dump her" over it, leaving her with one less leg to stand on.  When it rains it pours, apparently.

Really, the whole Aegon Targaryen plotline for Jon does seem like a big waste, they don't seem to be doing anything with it.

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

Problematic issues aside, Drogo is a thousand times better than Jon. Call me whatever names you want, but Drogo not only loved her , he protected, respected, and killed all those who threatened her. That vision of him and her unborn son in the House of The Undying still makes me cry. He would never leave her open to attack like this.

Maybe it's because we've never actually seen any Dothraki babies, but it's really hard to imagine Dany and Drogo's child being a chubby cuddly delight. At the time it felt like, yep, biggest bit of fiction shown thus far.