S12.E15: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

[catrox14]

ETA: For me it isn't character growth for Dean to have swallow his anger at being lied to. It's not even character growth for Dean to say" you're  right Sam." IMO what would have character growth would be Dean saying "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you ".

That doesn't take away Sams choice and it doesn't take away Deans prerogative to not join. IMO Dean is going along with this begrudgingly which creates just as much conflict as if he didn't join up.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the beginning would've been stronger if they'd showed a montage of them on the road and the back to back fights. And, the conversation would've made more sense if they were in the car instead of the bunker. Plus, the joke would've been funnier if Dean was really annoyed he was getting Baby all gooey. It would've also played better with the joke of Sam riding the brakes. I know, an actual through-line, blows the mind, don't it? ;)

IA, plus the back-to-back fights just sounded more interesting than the one hell hound case they showed, seeing as they worked the hell hound case the same way they work all their cases -- investigate and pseudo FBI, talk with the PiP, etc.

Were they driving to one fight when the BMOL were already blowing up Sam's phone with coordinates/time for another fight, so they just hopped from one fight to another with no investigation in between? How did they get food? Their bloody faces would have terrified anyone working the drive-thru as they picked up burgers or shakes or whatever on the road...

God forbid they get a flat tire and have to stop on the side of a dark road, covered in blood and guts, for a quick pit stop. Even running out of gas would be a big problem! Can you imagine heading home from a late shift at work, pulling into the gas station, and realizing just after swiping your card (so it's too late to leave!) that at the pump next to you are a couple guys covered in bodily effluvia? And the Impala must guzzle gas, that thing is old. Forget about stressing out whether to tell the PiP (Gwen) about monsters, what about all the passerby that saw the Winchesters looking like the Manson family on a bad day -- what were they supposed to think? Monsters being real is actually the HAPPIER explanation for why a couple of guys would be wondering the country covered with the lifeblood of their kills lol.

I don't know how Sam and Dean could even have stopped in a motel to clean up (and sleep), though, because you can't just wonder up to the front desk covered in buckets of blood and smelling like dead meat.

Anyway, so I'm just picturing these back-to-back fights being a frantic mess -- that would be pretty interesting to watch. I think that Dean would kind of love it, too, because of the adrenaline if nothing else, and I can see that making him a little more inclined to agree to keep going with getting fed cases from the BMOL than he might otherwise be.

Although considering that I had thought that the one big "win" in the BMOL previously was that Sam couldn't even find any cases to work (so maybe the BMOL actually had gotten rid of a lot of monsters?!), the fact that there are basically infinite cases for the BMOL to feed to Sam and Dean is a little disappointing.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I would have loved this!! These writers miss so many golden opportunities.  Also agree that "Lucille" would've worked better as an outtake for gag re

And  that joke would have really worked as a call back  to when Dean decapitated the werepire using the door of the Impala. Dean apologized to Baby for having to do it.

Both of those jokes would have required Perez to leave Dean in character and Heaven forfend he do that.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

don't know how Sam and Dean could even have stopped in a motel to clean up (and sleep), though, because you can't just wonder up to the front desk covered in buckets of blood and smelling like dead meat.

Ways Dean could clean-up on the road without using a shower.

-- Stop at a gas station and use the restroom. Sam gets the key to it and gives it to Dean and Sam keeps watch outside. Dean can  rinse his hair and under wear in the  sink and  it dry in the back of the Impala. Even when Dean had the MoC and was interrogating Gadreel in an old run down warehouse factory, he took a moment to find the bathroom and splash water on his face. Dean is resourceful enough to find a way to at least rinse off.

-- if they are in the woods he can find a brook and rinse off.

-- if they were in the city and don't want to go inside,  they can find  an alley way and pick off the body parts and throw it in a trash dumpster. Anyone who sees them will just assume they are dumpsters diving.

 -- Dean could use some of the melted ice water in the Green Cooler.

-- Dean could use a flask of Holy Water. they make that stuff all the time.

-- Dean could find a park and roll around in the grass to get off the goop like dogs do.

There is literally no valid character or plot reason for Dean to ride around in the Impala for at least 4 days and not clean up. it is utterly completely out of character.

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ways Dean could clean-up on the road without using a shower.

Well, sure there are ways. I'm saying it would have been more interesting and fun to have seen THAT (and just the entire back-to-back fight roadtrip altogether) than it was to see the hell hound case, which was ultimately just an ordinary case that they solved in the same-old-same-old kind of way.

There have been times that the show has shown Sam and Dean brushing their teeth at the car with a bottle of water or other road-trippy things, and I always enjoy that. YMMV.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Well, sure there are ways. I'm saying it would have been more interesting and fun to have seen THAT (and just the entire back-to-back fight roadtrip altogether) than it was to see the hell hound case, which was ultimately just an ordinary case that they solved in the same-old-same-old kind of way.

There have been times that the show has shown Sam and Dean brushing their teeth at the car with a bottle of water or other road-trippy things, and I always enjoy that. YMMV.

Yeah, I would have loved to seen a back-to-back ghoul, wraith, siren hunt and seen how Dean got so dirty as opposed to Sam staying so pristinely clean.  There's gotta be a story behind that, and I'm sure it's at least interesting and perhaps even funny.  Maybe Sam let Dean do all the actual fighting while he just check his email for the next hunt?

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, so I'm just picturing these back-to-back fights being a frantic mess -- that would be pretty interesting to watch. I think that Dean would kind of love it, too, because of the adrenaline if nothing else, and I can see that making him a little more inclined to agree to keep going with getting fed cases from the BMOL than he might otherwise be.

 This isn't like Purgatory where Dean didn't have moments rest because he was in a realm where he had NO options. There were literal monsters on him from the moment he got there.

There has been nothing in Deans characterization out of Purgatory that he would not take a moment to clean up.

but let's go with Dean is getting off on the adrenaline rush why is Sam willing to take back to back to back cases without  a rest when its not another apocalypse? That seems weird to me.

Remember when Sam told Mick "Give me some  time" re getting Dean on board? If I was more distrusting of Sam, I might  almost think Ketch, Sam and Mick were trying to turn Dean into a killing machine by getting him addicted to the adrenaline rush of killing again. What if all these hunts were setups BY BMoL to get Dean into a killing frame of  mind?

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I would have loved to seen a back-to-back ghoul, wraith, siren hunt and seen how Dean got so dirty as opposed to Sam staying so pristinely clean.  There's gotta be a story behind that, and I'm sure it's at least interesting and perhaps even funny.  Maybe Sam let Dean do all the actual fighting while he just check his email for the next hunt?

Yeah, that would have been pretty fun to see. Now I'm imagining Dean during that four-day-fighting-fest being like that guy at a music festival who is just GROSS and obviously enjoying the dirty hippie-ness of it all as part of the ~experience~. Like, he's treating EVERY DAY as Sunday Funday. ;) And meanwhile Sam is like, "it's Wednesday dude. Brush your teeth." LOL.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 This isn't like Purgatory where Dean didn't have moments rest because he was in a realm where he had NO options. There were literal monsters on him from the moment he got there.

There has been nothing in Deans characterization out of Purgatory that he would not take a moment to clean up.

I'm not disagreeing, I think it was out of character that Dean was so ridiculously nasty, too. I haven't thought of him as a neat freak especially (hadn't really paid attention), but that he would walk around for days covered in blood and guts is ridiculous. I mean, if nothing else, it would be physically uncomfortable. So itchy as the blood dries. And the mess getting everywhere...And it's also just so weird to think of him trying to order some chicken nuggets or pump gas or whatever while covered in gore. So impractical.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

but let's go with Dean is getting off on the adrenaline rush why is Sam willing to take back to back to back cases without  a rest when its not another apocalypse? That seems weird to me.

I guess the idea is that Sam is going full-tilt thinking that there's an end-date in sight, that they (and the BMOL) are on-track to rid the continental US of monsters soon (which seems ridiculous to me but whatever).

I'm actually more put out by the fact that the BMOL is now admitting that there are tons of monsters still around. Just last week, they were saying there were like 11 vampires left in the US or something, and Sam couldn't find a single case on his own. Now suddenly the BMOL have case after case after case for Sam to work? I think that inconsistency is just an oversight but it adds to my confusion about the BMOL and how the show even wants us (the audience) to perceive them.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Well, sure there are ways. I'm saying it would have been more interesting and fun to have seen THAT (and just the entire back-to-back fight roadtrip altogether) than it was to see the hell hound case, which was ultimately just an ordinary case that they solved in the same-old-same-old kind of way.

There have been times that the show has shown Sam and Dean brushing their teeth at the car with a bottle of water or other road-trippy things, and I always enjoy that. YMMV.

 I was just  responding to your comment of how could they even get cleaned up in a motel shower and I was stating how they could get cleaned up without a motel shower.

and yes I seeing them hunting  that way would have been better, yet it still would not make any character sense for Dean to wallow in the filth for longer  than necessary. And there is no necessary short of  Dean being incapacitated and in  that case based on Sam nagging him, Sam would have taken the time to clean him up

i would have preferred to see Dean be pissed that he couldnt find a way to get cleaned up like he would want because of reasons and have him just be so relieved he could finally take a shower.

 

There really is no good way to polish that turd of an opening scene.LOL

[Wayward Son]

The opening scene was probably just an excuse to give a quick nod to the Wincest shippers with the whole boxers thing. 

Im kidding... kinda haha

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm actually more put out by the fact that the BMOL is now admitting that there are tons of monsters still around. Just last week, they were saying there were like 11 vampires left in the US or something, and Sam couldn't find a single case on his own. Now suddenly the BMOL have case after case after case for Sam to work? I think that inconsistency is just an oversight but it adds to my confusion about the BMOL and how the show even wants us (the audience) to perceive them.

It was 11 vampire in the Midwest.  You just made me wonder if the monsters know what's going on, maybe they ramping up on their reproduction efforts.  I have no idea if wraiths, ghouls, and sirens have a way to reproduce. Vampires and werewolves can do it pretty easily.

[Airmid]

Quote

 

Sam is:
1) Not taking orders from BMoL. He's worked cases they offered.  
2) Made it clear he doesn't like them. He is still wary.
3) Committed to bailing if 'something feels off'. 

Dean is:
1) Not trusting them.
2) Acknowledging that they work with those they don't like all the time if it gets the job done.  
3) Putting conditions on the arrangement with a "bail" clause.

In fact, I'd say the entire POINT of the episode from a Sam and Dean perspective was to have them work someone they don't trust (Crowley) on a relatively routine issue. Yes, it was logic based to call Crowley: one of his Hell Hounds had slipped it's leash and Crowley controls them -- or so they thought. But they didn't hesitate. And it worked out successful.  They THANKED Crowley (he's earned it IMO in recent weeks) and the girl gave Crowley a HUG.  

Bottom Line: The dialog does not support "full on-board". And Dean's rationale was sound plus he set conditions.  I'd call it maturity, not caving due to low self-esteem.  

 

Hey all, I've lurked for a long time and finally got around to making an account. Sadly SueB it's because I disagree a lot with this though I do always like your thoughts!

So then, I went back and rewatched this episode and paid a lot attention to the scene in question. I don't really feel at all that Sam is committed to bailing. In fact it just feels like he was agreeing so that Dean wouldn't be angry. I would have felt a lot more commitment on Sam's part if after Dean's statement about their questionable allies he talked about how they wouldn't just bail but instead rescue their mom and take them down if it really was that questionable.

It's probably just me. Along with yelling "Shoot her! Shoooot Her!" complete with accent during the scene where the hound is first attacking them in the Impala. Apparently need more things to fill my Saturdays... 

[FrankOFoley]

On 3/9/2017 at 9:12 PM, Macbeth said:

Castiel using the name of Solange

This is French and translates to "sole angel". I found there were a lot of easter eggs in this episode.

[rue721]

Sole (meaning "only") in French is seul or seulement. Sol means the ground.

Although "ground angel" is kind of even more appropriate for Cas, since he's earthbound?

I think he was meant to be using the name because it's Beyoncé's sister, though -- apparently, Cas is kinda obsessed w Beyoncé ;)

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, FrankOFoley said:

This is French and translates to "sole angel". I found there were a lot of easter eggs in this episode.

Wait, what if we find out Castiel has a soul now. Or that he has been a nephilim all along!

SWERVE: Castiel is the love child of Mary and Chuck.

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what if we find out Castiel has a soul now. Or that he has been a nephilim all along!

SWERVE: Castiel is the love child of Mary and Chuck.

OH GOD. COULD YOU IMAGINE THAT REVEAL SCENE 

-Mary sobbing over cas' dead body- 

Mary: "Dean, Sam... Castiel, he's... he was your brother" 

-cut to the brothers What the feck expression- 

sorry im twisted ><

Edited March 11, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what if we find out Castiel has a soul now. Or that he has been a nephilim all along!

SWERVE: Castiel is the love child of Mary and Chuck.

Why Mary and Chuck?

I mean Michael was possessing young John in the past. Would maybe explain why he didn't just kill Castiel for out right going against heaven and instead try to re-educate him and later cast him down without threatening him....

I should probably stop thinking about this.

[MysteryGuest]

One thing I did enjoy about this episode was watching Lucifer get his ass kicked.  It was the best Lucifer episode of the season for me.  Part of me wants Crowley to get his groove back as the King of Hell, but I think I'd miss his relationship with Sam and Dean too much.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Why Mary and Chuck?

I mean Michael was possessing young John in the past. Would maybe explain why he didn't just kill Castiel for out right going against heaven and instead try to re-educate him and later cast him down without threatening him....

I should probably stop thinking about this.

Oh just for shits and giggles. No reason. Are you saying Castiel could be Michael and Mary's Nephilim? That's why I gave it SWERVE as in so far out there.

[Airmid]

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

One thing I did enjoy about this episode was watching Lucifer get his ass kicked.  It was the best Lucifer episode of the season for me.  Part of me wants Crowley to get his groove back as the King of Hell, but I think I'd miss his relationship with Sam and Dean too much.  

I actually really enjoyed the scene where Lucifer destroyed the demanding demon and stopped to explain the 'no witnesses' to the devoted follower. That felt very in character to me, both his annoyance and his, well not remorse but rather feeling that he had some good cannon fodder he was giving up in destroying the other guy.

I just can't buy that Crowley would know how to bind an archangel to his vessel given his backstory. If they had actually gone with Crowley being a fallen angel or being in contact with fallen angels then yes, maybe then. But something as old and powerful as Lucifer being chained by something young like Crowley? Not so much sadly.

I'd like to see Crowley get his groove on too with being an actual demon. Meg (though this is probably UO) managed to show shifting loyalties while still being a demon. Personally, I'd like to see Crowley retain his views on Dean and simply spare Sam due to what it would do to Dean (not to mention having Dean Winchester stalk him would be a terrible outcome). Crowley would do better as a shadowy figure that does come to help them with more complicated motives instead of being in the forefront all the time. It feels like the writers can't figure out how to reconcile his constant presence with what he is.

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh just for shits and giggles. No reason. Are you saying Castiel could be Michael and Mary's Nephilim? That's why I gave it SWERVE as in so far out there.

Well...it would be more interesting than the backstabbing and betrayal and 'let's work with monsters' theme that's been going on for how long now? Instead of giving Naomi credence to him having a crack in his chassis it would be interesting to me if Michael just brainwashed heaven into accepting Castiel and his ability to empathize and support humans came from the human side he never knew he had. Plus it would help with his doubts that he had all the way back in season four along with his continued loyalty to the Winchesters.

Not saying it's true but if we're going for weird I'd take that over Mary getting busy with Chuck no matter how bad the writers seem determined to make John. :P

EDIT: And it would help explain where his soul came from at the end of Sacrifice. I mean, seeing season nine angels whose grace is extracted just die why didn't Castiel outside of being a main character now-a-days? Cas had his grace whiffed out by Metadouche along with the guy telling Cas that he was to come back at the end of his human life and tell him stories. So where did the soul that Cas would need to have in order to get back to heaven at any point come from? Or even to still be living at that point?

I should really stop thinking about this.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Airmid

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Not saying it's true but if we're going for weird I'd take that over Mary getting busy with Chuck no matter how bad the writers seem determined to make John. :P

The only problem with both our musings is that makes Mary a rape victim because she wouldn't have known that it was Michael and not John unless Michael possessing John for that hot minute changed John's DNA in some way so it was John with Mary but he didn't know he was fathering a nephelim...and now I'm going down a rabbit hole that is creepier and creepier.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I would hope Sam wouldn't care about Dean's words when he's dealing with a victim.

ETA: Sam could have just let her barf and then drove on. He didn't have to sit there and listen to her sob story. He could have listened to her whilst they drove.

That first part was meant to be a joke.  Obviously, it didn't click.  Okay.  To be fair, I said Dean would have pulled over also.  And Dean probably would have sat there and listened to her sob story too.  

The real problem with how that all played out is not that Sam pulled over to let Gwen barf.  It's as others have noted, that Sam didn't floor the car, either forward or reverse, and get out of there when he saw the hellhound.  

17 hours ago, rue721 said:

Grown men don't walk around reminding each other to shower and change their underwear 

How were they even launching RIGHT into fight after fight, without doing any investigative work in between?

1. Sometimes they do.  :)  Ex: long camping/hiking trips.  Sweaty workouts/pickup football games.  It's kind of locker room talk/joking.  Depends on the guys of course and how well they know each other.  Sam and Dean being brothers and living together as long as they have definitely qualifies.

2.  This is one of my big questions about Sam working with/for the BMoL.  If he's not doing his own research when they alert him of a case, then he is just working FOR them.  A grunt.  And that's just stupid.  I mean, in addition to signing up with them at all.  Then again, apparently neither Sam nor Dean have bothered to follow up on the black site deal enough to find out all the soldiers were ended up dead.  

7 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

He could simply have said that even though he doesn't trust them, they do have monster tracking abilities that the boys don't have, and it would help them to save more people if they could hunt pro-actively rather than reactively...basically to use the BMOL for their own purposes.  

Why do they even need the Suckbags for this anyway?  When Sam first lied to Dean about a computer algorithm that scans police radio/new channels, etc. I thought that was pretty cool.  And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that is probably exactly how the Mick and his crew (did he get new people after Serena and the other guys were killed by the alpha vamp?) are doing it anyway.  They have room at the bunker.  They could install their own bank of servers, set up their own "cloud", and cut out the middle man.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: For me it isn't character growth for Dean to have swallow his anger at being lied to. It's not even character growth for Dean to say" you're  right Sam." IMO what would have character growth would be Dean saying "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you ".

You are right.  Swallowing anger is not necessarily character growth.  Neither is Dean saying Sam is right, if Sam is not right.  But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out." is not character growth either.  That is being stubborn and smacks of sulking and childishness.  He's done that before.  They both have.  It was character growth, imo, for Dean to actually listen to Sam's reasons, calmly consider them, and then very shrewdly make up his own mind.  Which is exactly what he did - with some caveats of his own.  He did not swallow his anger at all.  He chose the middle ground; which any seasoned negotiator knows always gets better results than ultimatums.

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, FrankOFoley said:

This is French and translates to "sole angel". I found there were a lot of easter eggs in this episode.

Well I would like to think the writer did this on purpose, but it probably is because Solange is Beyonce's sister.

Thank you for the translation Frankofoley.  It made me smile.

[Airmid]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only problem with both our musings is that makes Mary a rape victim because she wouldn't have known that it was Michael and not John unless Michael possessing John for that hot minute changed John's DNA in some way so it was John with Mary but he didn't know he was fathering a nephelim...and now I'm going down a rabbit hole that is creepier and creepier.

Oh no, please don't get me wrong. It would be creepy, especially to Mary unless Michael at some point told her then erased her memory when he absconded with Castiel. Which would make sense given how powerful he is and wouldn't want people to know that he had a kid.

I also personally ascribe to the view that angels are not people and tend not to have the same hang-ups. Michael may not have seen it as wrong (if we're going with our strange scenario) but to human eyes, yeah, creeptastic.

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That first part was meant to be a joke.  Obviously, it didn't click.  Okay.  To be fair, I said Dean would have pulled over also.  And Dean probably would have sat there and listened to her sob story too.  

The real problem with how that all played out is not that Sam pulled over to let Gwen barf.  It's as others have noted, that Sam didn't floor the car, either forward or reverse, and get out of there when he saw the hellhound.  

Yeah, both Sam not flooring the car into the thing and just pulling over in general irks me. This girl is being pursued by a hell hound that answers only to the devil. Sam, dear, you need to tell her at worst to lean out the window and deal with the mess later. Not pull over near where the thing might be.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Neither is Dean saying Sam is right, if Sam is not right.  But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out." is not character growth either.  That is being stubborn and smacks of sulking and childishness.  He's done that befor

 Quoting myself

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

growth would be Dean saying "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you

 But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out."

Those are not the same things. 

I literally never said that Dean would be peaceing out on them. I said that Dean would be doing his thing and they would be doing theirs.  I said if Mary and Sam run into trouble, he'll help. I said that  he'll maintain family ties but he won't work with organization that he doesn't trust. How is that being stubborn and immature?

They literally do not have to work together. Dean can accept their decisions and they can accept his to not join.

[MysteryGuest]

The entire problem with all of this is that they simply didn't give Sam a good enough reason to actually want to join the BMOL.  What I saw were a bunch of arrogant, ill-prepared people, completely unskilled in the art of hunting.  Sam knows they can't be trusted as far as he can throw them, so it just made no sense for him to say "sign me up!"  The killing of the Alpha Vamp was pure dumb luck (mixed in with more lying about stealing the colt), not a sign of superior abilities.  So the only believable reason for Sam to agree to work with them would be to protect Mary, and if that were the case, he'd have simply told Dean that and he'd have agreed immediately.

 I swear we should petition the show runners to let us write the episodes next season.  I absolutely believe we could come up with much better stories that wouldn't make our favorites look like imbeciles.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you

 But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out."

Those are not the same things. 

Agree to disagree then, because they sound like pretty much the same thing to me.

Edited March 11, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you

 But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out."

Those are not the same things. 

Agree to disagree then, because they sound like pretty much the same thing to me

 

Not arguing, trying to understand.

If you see them as the same, what would Dean be able to do so as to not have to work with an organization he doesn't want to work with and to not be seen as immature?

Edited March 11, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

They both have.  It was character growth, imo, for Dean to actually listen to Sam's reasons, calmly consider them, and then very shrewdly make up his own mind.  Which is exactly what he did - with some caveats of his own.  He did not swallow his anger at all.  He chose the middle ground; which any seasoned negotiator knows always gets better results than ultimatums.

ETA:

I didn't read Dean's reaction as him making a shrewd choice. IMO he made a grudging decision with ONE caveat that if things go hinky they bail. I don't think that is a particularly strong caveat that will hold up.

What happens if Sam doesn't bail either of his own accord or because Mary won't so he won't? If Dean opts out at that point, is that an immature decision?

Edited March 11, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not arguing, trying to understand.

If you see them as the same, what would Dean be able to not have to work with an organization he doesn't want to work with and not have him be seen as immature?

Okay.  Trying to explain (but I understand if it still doesn't make sense to you. :) ) "Drank the Kool-Aid" is immediately combative, so I don't see that as a mature response at all.  Maybe if it was phrased better...  But bottom line is I think Dean did the mature thing and I'm not sure there was any way around it without coming off as immature.  Sometimes adults have to do things they don't want to do.  Standing on principal is cold comfort when someone you love ends up dead.  Which leads me to:

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't read Dean's reaction as him making a shrewd choice.

Hm...Dean could let Sam and Mary go their own way - knowing how stubborn they both are and that they likely wouldn't call him if they were in real trouble, especially since they likely wouldn't know they were in real trouble until it was too late to call (like on the lakehouse case).  OR he could go along to get along and in the mean time have both of their backs when things inevitably go sideways.  I think that's a shrewd choice.    

[Airmid]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The entire problem with all of this is that they simply didn't give Sam a good enough reason to actually want to join the BMOL.  What I saw were a bunch of arrogant, ill-prepared people, completely unskilled in the art of hunting.  Sam knows they can't be trusted as far as he can throw them, so it just made no sense for him to say "sign me up!"  The killing of the Alpha Vamp was pure dumb luck (mixed in with more lying about stealing the colt), not a sign of superior abilities.  So the only believable reason for Sam to agree to work with them would be to protect Mary, and if that were the case, he'd have simply told Dean that and he'd have agreed immediately.

 I swear we should petition the show runners to let us write the episodes next season.  I absolutely believe we could come up with much better stories that wouldn't make our favorites look like imbeciles.  

Completely. If Sam had gone with the flow to protect his mom I'd be on board. So would Dean for that matter because no matter how Mary's been acting she's still his mom and he'd defend her to his death.

I honestly didn't like the final scene between the two, especially when Sam picked up the call and didn't put it on speaker. Wouldn't BMOL be thrilled Dean was on board even his misgivings? Isn't that what they've been trying for? Instead it just feels like more issues shoved into the already rather broken and shambling brother bond.

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Quoting myself

 But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out."

Those are not the same things. 

I literally never said that Dean would be peaceing out on them. I said that Dean would be doing his thing and they would be doing theirs.  I said if Mary and Sam run into trouble, he'll help. I said that  he'll maintain family ties but he won't work with organization that he doesn't trust. How is that being stubborn and immature?

They literally do not have to work together. Dean can accept their decisions and they can accept his to not join.

I think Dean does need distance and Sam needs to chose his family (both Dean and the safety of Mary) over what he thinks is 'right' for a change. Not only would it make him look less like a moron in the end (since it seems Sam's choices need to be proven wrong) but also help establish the whole family bond thing that the show wants us to feel.

 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You are right.  Swallowing anger is not necessarily character growth.  Neither is Dean saying Sam is right, if Sam is not right.  But Dean saying "You made your bed, lie in it.  Peace out." is not character growth either.  That is being stubborn and smacks of sulking and childishness.  He's done that before.  They both have.  It was character growth, imo, for Dean to actually listen to Sam's reasons, calmly consider them, and then very shrewdly make up his own mind.  Which is exactly what he did - with some caveats of his own.  He did not swallow his anger at all.  He chose the middle ground; which any seasoned negotiator knows always gets better results than ultimatums.

I wouldn't even call it a middle ground. Sam actually felt some guilt and came clean. What's Dean supposed to say given all the past years between them? No, not working with the dudes that tortured you? Probably not as that would only shove his family away.

If Dean was true to character here, he would agree on surface and serve his own agenda to protect his family which is now not only his brother but his mother. There's no way Dean trusts HMSS, there's no way that Dean even trusts Sam given that Sam has once again been lying. Even Mary. That doesn't change the fact that he cares about them whether or not they deserve the help. That doesn't mean he won't taint himself working with people who might consider themselves killers to keep them safe. While true to character it could have been done so much better and in character for all involved.

I get that Mary has issues. Who wouldn't being dead for thirty plus years, finding her children grown, John having been an idiot and the world eeking along. I get that she is conflicted and has so many reasons to side with the Brits wanting to make a better world. At the same time the writing has really let this arc down. Mary comes off as not caring and cold, Sam devious and Dean a lap dog. Again. Is that what the writers want viewers to feel? Probably not, but to me, that's how it looks.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I don't think Dean had really strong feelings either way. I think his objections to them are mostly that they tortured Sam, but they've also said that was a rogue agent, not them. And, since Sam doesn't seem to care about that anymore... . And, his anger at Mary wasn't about the BMoL themselves, but that she lied and used he and Sam.

Basically, IMO, I if Dean had felt very strongly about not working with the BMoL, I don't think he would've agreed to work with them. I think he's not entirely sure if they're bad or good yet, but his instinct is that they're not what they seem. I think he's just waiting to see what happens before he too picks his side. 

So, I agree with @RulerofallIsurvey that Dean made an informed choice, but I also agree with @catrox14, that if he didn't want to join Sam, that's okay too. I'm okay with Dean choosing either option as long as he is actually making the choice and not being forced into it. Which he wasn't, IMO. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

I think Dean does need distance and Sam needs to chose his family (both Dean and the safety of Mary) over what he thinks is 'right' for a change. Not only would it make him look less like a moron in the end (since it seems Sam's choices need to be proven wrong) but also help establish the whole family bond thing that the show wants us to feel.

I agree in the sense that Sam needs to think of what could become of his family through an alliance with the BMOL and that this should be a way to pull the three of them together. This may be an unpopular opinion but I feel that Dean's distance should be from Mary, not Sam. She needed space for her period of adjustment and now Dean needs space after she let both of them down. I feel that considering that both his mother and his brother have agreed to work with them he must feel pressured to be with them also since he's all about family.

 

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

I get that Mary has issues. Who wouldn't being dead for thirty plus years, finding her children grown, John having been an idiot and the world eeking along. I get that she is conflicted and has so many reasons to side with the Brits wanting to make a better world. At the same time the writing has really let this arc down. Mary comes off as not caring and cold, Sam devious and Dean a lap dog. Again. Is that what the writers want viewers to feel? Probably not, but to me, that's how it looks.

I'm very disappointed by the arc that Mary has been given this season. She hasn't contributed anything to the family dynamic and has only brought more angst into Sam and Dean's lives. John would have been a better choice as they both have unresolved issues with him and the closure or possible redoing of their relationship would have been nice to see.

Edited March 11, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Airmid]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree in the sense that Sam needs to think of what could become of his family through an alliance with the BMOL and that this should be a way to pull the three of them together. This may by an unpopular opinion but I feel that Dean's distance should be from Mary, not Sam. She needed space for her period of adjustment and now Dean needs space after she let both of them down. I feel that considering that both his mother and his brother have agreed to work with them he must feel pressured to be with them also since he's all about family.

In some ways I think it's rather sad that they stuck Dean with the 'all about family' and only related it to blood right now. Dean's been all about family in both blood and those that have been close them (Cas, Benny, Bobby all come to mind). Yet he's destined to get hurt over and over because all the people he considered family keep failing him. It gets exhausting to watch after a while.

And while Sam is still doing the lying liar that lies thing, he at least has been around. Mary hasn't. Sam came clean finally despite his stupid rational of having a computer program find their cases. (Really, Dean? You didn't question this sooner?) Sam wants his mom, wants what he didn't have and I could believe Dean protecting him from the eventual fallout, given that humans are flawed and make bad choices. At the very least I could believe Dean agreeing to protect Sam, as at this point he doesn't owe a lot to his mother outside of his own personal guilt.

It's a situation that I think Amara never intended him to be in and it's rather crushing the writers forced us into this. If the season finale is Mary/BMOL vs Dean/Sam I think I might be finally done with this show.

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm very disappointed by the arc that Mary has been given this season. She hasn't contributed anything to the family dynamic and has only brought more angst into Sam and Dean's lives. John would have been a better choice as they both have unresolved issues with him and the closure or possible redoing of their relationship would have been nice to see.

Agreed. I think for Dean it would have started with 'why was this my childhood' and ended with 'why did you sell yourself to hell for me'. I think Dean needed far more closure from his dad given his interaction and early series personifying of John over Mary. Yes he loved his mother but he knew her as a child. The only thing Mary has brought is more heart ache and pain becoming the woman who would willing sell everything out to a demon to save her husband including her children. That's just painfully sad to me.

Having John with them, actually answering for how he raised them, his interactions, why he did what he did would have been interesting, IMO. Mary was always a personified version of a four year old - someone who was there and loved them but not a real part of their lives. Even given Dean's trips to the past. Having Mary become the new John in this scenario is depressing.

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay.  Trying to explain (but I understand if it still doesn't make sense to you. :) ) "Drank the Kool-Aid" is immediately combative, so I don't see that as a mature response at all.  Maybe if it was phrased better...  But bottom line is I think Dean did the mature thing and I'm not sure there was any way around it without coming off as immature.  Sometimes adults have to do things they don't want to do.  Standing on principal is cold comfort when someone you love ends up dead.  Which leads me to:

Hm...Dean could let Sam and Mary go their own way - knowing how stubborn they both are and that they likely wouldn't call him if they were in real trouble, especially since they likely wouldn't know they were in real trouble until it was too late to call (like on the lakehouse case).  OR he could go along to get along and in the mean time have both of their backs when things inevitably go sideways.  I think that's a shrewd choice.    

Dean doesn't literally have to "Drank the Kool Aid" that's my shorthand for him saying, "you've bought into their deal". If all one focuses is on is the words instead of what the words are actually implying then I guess I can why you might read it as combative. Dean doesn't need to mince words here. He's telling them what he will and won't do. That's boundary setting IMO, which WOULD be character growth for Dean. 

If I read you right, and let me know if I haven't, essentially the only mature decision Dean can make is to against his own instincts about the BMOL, in order to protect Sam and Mary rather than Sam and Mary opting out of the BMOL by hearing out Dean on his gut instincts here. To me that sounds like the maturity problem might not be on Dean's side.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

Having Mary become the new John in this scenario is depressing.

This is the worst part of it. After the difficult relationship that they both had with their father Mary could have been an opportunity to give them a good parental experience. I'm holding onto hope that they give us something to this effect before the end of the season.

[trxr4kids]

IMO compromise should be a two way or three way street in this case, so what have Mary or Sam compromised on? Nothing as far as I can see, so it does come across as Dean once again going along with something just for the sake of family, which is a very Dean thing to do IMO but it's not character growth or a particularly healthy behavior. I don't really feel strongly about the whole thing though or the season as a whole so there's that.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but I feel that Dean's distance should be from Mary, not Sam.

The problem with this IMO, is that Sam has chosen to side with Mary here. So if he distances himself from Mary IMO by default he's distancing himself from Sam.

I don't think any of them are making a decision for rational reasons. If they were, they would be doing far more recon on BMOL. Digging through their own MoL bunker to find out if they have missed something. I dunno, maybe even see what's on that bigass computer.

IMO Mary is trying to assuage her profound guilt over the mess her choices made that ruined Sam's life. I'm still not convinced she has any idea that her choices fucked with Dean's life as much as it has. I think she thinks some of why Dean had no childhood was because of how John raised him. I'm not saying she doesn't love Dean (although...I have pause on that at times). I think on some level Sam is choosing the BMOL for Mary. To maintain a connection to her because she sure as shit can't handle any kind of emotional connection to them. Nothing deep or sustained IMO. And I think Dean making a choice was for Sam.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I honestly didn't like the final scene between the two, especially when Sam picked up the call and didn't put it on speaker. Wouldn't BMOL be thrilled Dean was on board even his misgivings? Isn't that what they've been trying for? Instead it just feels like more issues shoved into the already rather broken and shambling brother bond.

^This especially bothered me at the end.  Sam had just come clean with Dean.  Dean wasn't happy, but was willing to give it a shot.  I expected Sam to put the call on speaker, so why didn't he?  They've done it before on calls.  Makes no sense, except to keep the 'Sam is hiding something/a liar' dynamic going.

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If I read you right, and let me know if I haven't, essentially the only mature decision Dean can make is to against his own instincts about the BMOL, in order to protect Sam and Mary rather than Sam and Mary opting out of the BMOL by hearing out Dean on his gut instincts here. To me that sounds like the maturity problem might not be on Dean's side.

I'm not entirely sure it was against Dean's own 'instincts' as @DittyDotDot said.  But yeah - the maturity problem was not on Dean's side, IMO.  I think both Mary and Sam behaved very immaturely with the sneaking and lying.  Mary; we don't really know, so I'll kind of give her a pass.  Plus, she's technically younger than the guys, and hasn't been through what they have.  But I am very disappointed in Sam after everything.  The mature thing for Sam to do would have been to tell Dean at the outset that he was getting tips on cases from the BMoL.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

^This especially bothered me at the end.  Sam had just come clean with Dean.  Dean wasn't happy, but was willing to give it a shot.  I expected Sam to put the call on speaker, so why didn't he?  They've done it before on calls.  Makes no sense, except to keep the 'Sam is hiding something/a liar' dynamic going.

Honestly, it seems like a repeat of the Ruby fiasco. Dean doesn't like Sam working with a demon, he doesn't trust said demon but he agrees to go along with it because he trusts Sam. Dean comes back from hell and for absolutely no reason Sam lies to Dean about who Ruby is, sneaks around etc., it's just all more of the same and so boring.

[Airmid]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

IMO compromise should be a two way or three way street in this case, so what have Mary or Sam compromised on? Nothing as far as I can see, so it does come across as Dean once again going along with something just for the sake of family, which is a very Dean thing to do IMO but it's not character growth or a particularly healthy behavior. I don't really feel strongly about the whole thing though or the season as a whole so there's that.

Yeah it's not healthy behavior. It's Dean still trying to put family before all and with this show - well, that bites him the ass. Over and over again. It would be nice if Dean putting family before all else actually paid off for him, truly if this show wants to preach the message they want us to swallow. Which is family is what you have to believe in, whether blood or by bond.

I mean Dean even mourning and trying to grieve Bobby came back to haunt him in season seven. That's terrible that both of them, Dean particularly, had to kill someone there for them through the end times all over again. Now it's his mom? Come on show, give this boy some happiness.

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is the worst part of it. After the difficult relationship that they both had with their father Mary could have been an opportunity to give them a good parental experience. I'm holding onto hope that they give us something to this effect before the end of the season.

I definitely think that Mary could have been written so much better, including her alliance with the BMOL.

Her feeling responsible for what happened to her children? Check

Her feeling that she needs to change things for the better to help them? Check

Her siding with people that tortured her kid? Well...yeah, no. Nothing they've given me has made me want to side with them from the end of last season on.

Like I said, I'm totally okay with them having Mary conflicted and a fish out water sort of storyline. Makes sense. It's the whole underhanded thing, especially since she led them into the snakes den without so much as a warning and still hid that she had stolen from the snake in question that almost got their ally killed that makes me balk. I can do a lot, I can image her doubt and guilt, and so much more. But I don't hold out a lot of hope with the writing this season to give her arc a real meaning outside of being one more causality on the road. Something else for them to angst and be divided over. If they manage to exceed my expectations I will be a happy camper. Past seasons have taught me however not to hope for too much.

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not entirely sure it was against Dean's own 'instincts' as @DittyDotDot said.  But yeah - the maturity problem was not on Dean's side, IMO.  I think both Mary and Sam behaved very immaturely with the sneaking and lying.  Mary; we don't really know, so I'll kind of give her a pass.  Plus, she's technically younger than the guys, and hasn't been what they have.  But I am very disappointed in Sam after everything.  The mature thing for Sam to do would have been to tell Dean at the outset that he was getting tips on cases from the BMoL.  

Sam should just know better, period. It makes me disappointed because as a concept I like Sam. I really, really do. Sam in the hands of writers over the past seasons, not so much but better saved for the bitterness thread I think.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Like I said, I'm totally okay with them having Mary conflicted and a fish out water sort of storyline. Makes sense. It's the whole underhanded thing, especially since she led them into the snakes den without so much as a warning and still hid that she had stolen from the snake in question that almost got their ally killed that makes me balk.

I feel like this is Mary reverting to the Samuel Campbell method of hunting. At least the shady Samuel Campbell of s6.  Maybe this is who she is on the most basic level.

[Airmid]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I feel like this is Mary reverting to the Samuel Campbell method of hunting. At least the shady Samuel Campbell of s6.  Maybe this is who she is on the most basic level.

It's something I so dislike. Especially given Samuel Campbell's obsession with his daughter in season six that was rather, well, uncomfortable.

Mary shouldn't be just her father. Her mother seemed like a strong, determined woman and I would have liked to see that come out too. The defense of her family, of her children, of her longing for them to not be caught in this life. All of that. I want a Mary who would sell her soul quietly into damnation if it meant her children, never knowing, got a good world.

What we got was a Mary who while conflicted is siding with people who sent someone to torture her son, never helped them even though they could of, and just all around seem like not nice people. Not only that but the show rarely lets us into her head. I can see her going off to help someone in trouble if she had no leads on her children but Cas is an angel with all the knowledge of heaven. They don't pray to him, let him know anything, there's no info in this massively powered base they are in to rescue them before they make a deal with a reaper?

It just doesn't jive, along with her duplicity. Working with people who hurt her family and lying to her family at the same time. It's not even John. At the very least, with all his secrets John never worked with things that could hurt his family until he was dying. Well at least what we know of him. Mary is skipping right down the road to damnation and I can't help but think she should have taken up Billie on her offer of death. One way ticket to heaven, you know, the one she was willing to go out with to save her boys? The ones who made a straight deal with a reaper and it got hosed in the end.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

Mary shouldn't be just her father. Her mother seemed like a strong, determined woman and I would have liked to see that come out too. The defense of her family, of her children, of her longing for them to not be caught in this life. All of that. I want a Mary who would sell her soul quietly into damnation if it meant her children, never knowing, got a good world.

I wouldn't mind if we had some time with Deanna Campbell. Maybe we'll find out that Dean is more like Deanna than John or Mary or Samuel

[Airmid]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't mind if we had some time with Deanna Campbell. Maybe we'll find out that Dean is more like Deanna than John or Mary or Samuel

Mary made a compulsive deal with a demon. I hate to say it but I think Dean's faith in his mom is slowly being proved wrong in this show.

I liked Deanna Campbell. She was competent, quick witted and sure of herself. If anything Dean resembles her and it's a proper tribute to her name that he was named for her.

I hope I'm wrong. I really do. I want a Mary that Dean can still idolize, can still look up to as to not working with monsters or becoming one herself. I doubt, like I've said if Amara wanted this for him. She wanted healing for his family like he gave her and gave him his mother who he missed dearly. It just turns out, as the season wears on that his mom isn't nearly the person he thought she could be. I don't doubt for a second that Dean doesn't see her as an adult or understand her crisis with grow children. It's this terrible path that John followed that Mary is embracing with even more vigor that will break both their hearts in the end.

If I'm being honest, I wish she had been allowed to sacrifice herself for her sons and return to heaven in this season. It would have saved her character and while they could have mourned her, the would have had a mother committed to her children and family - the overall arc of the show.

The last thing I want is Mary to be dragged through the mud by her associations, for either of her boys.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I feel like this is Mary reverting to the Samuel Campbell method of hunting. At least the shady Samuel Campbell of s6.  Maybe this is who she is on the most basic level.

Which would make sense considering that she learned all she knew about hunting from her father.

[Airmid]

33 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which would make sense considering that she learned all she knew about hunting from her father.

And Deanna is what? Already dead?

If the show provided us with a responsible explanation of Mary in survival mode and following Samuel I'd be okay with that. But she had both parents until both were murdered one right after the other by YED.

I could see it if like John (presumably here because Henry used soul magic to kite a knight of hell) she was only raised by her father. She instead had both parents fully functioning and an influence in her life up till Azazel showed up. Her father's motives in season six could be waved away but she still had a mother and a father that guided her. Still wanted her life to be normal for her boys despite her up bringing and what later seasons have done to her. (I still can't see her on solo hunts after John though it does make more sense him moving out for a little while if this was her behavior).

She still should have told him. Even if she didn't remember the deal do to Michael's meddling at the very least making sure the house was safe would have been a priority. I can't see a woman who was an active hunter not doing that unless heaven really wiped the slate. It seems more of a character flaw seeing the pilot again than that. Like she didn't want to explain salt on the windows.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

And Deanna is what? Already dead?

Granted we do see both of her parents who are clearly in the hunters life when Dean is sent back into the past but the focus in that ep was more on Samuel who was an active hunter. We saw Mary and Samuel on a hunt when Dean popped in when they first learn of the yellow eyed demon as well as his reappearance in season 6. Campbell was Samuel's surname and the hunter kinfolk that were introduced were Campbell's also. My interpretation was that hunting was primarily throughout his family, not so much Deanna's. I could be wrong but the writing didn't allude to anything different. I know that she had both parents in her formative years but Samuel was the parent that was fleshed out for better or worse.

[MysteryGuest]

What bothers me is that there doesn't seem to be any interest on Mary's part to actually get to know her sons, or to allow them to get to know her.  She's read John's journal, and I have to assume she knows the bullet points of their lives, but she doesn't know them as men...what makes them tick.  And no, knowing that Dean likes pie, or burgers and beer doesn't even come close.  

I get that it isn't the character's fault, and that it's the writers' fault for not giving us any of these humanizing scenes for Mary.  But it does make it extremely difficult to like her or to not see her as just selfish and uncaring.  I was sympathetic to her plight in the first few episodes, but we've made no headway.  She's no closer to them now than she was the first day she came back, yet I'm supposed to believe that she's doing all of this for them?  It doesn't ring true.  

Edited March 12, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Airmid]

37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

What bothers me is that there doesn't seem to be any interest on Mary's part to actually get to know her sons, or to allow them to get to know her.  She's read John's journal, and I have to assume she knows the bullet points of their lives, but she doesn't know them as men...what makes them tick.  And no, knowing that Dean likes pie, or burgers and beer doesn't even come close.  

I get that it isn't the character's fault, and that it's the writers' fault for not giving us any of these humanizing scenes for Mary.  But it does make it extremely difficult to like her or to not see her as just selfish and uncaring.  I was sympathetic to her plight in the first few episodes, but we've made no headway.  She's no closer to them now than she was the first day she came back, yet I'm supposed to believe that she's doing all of this for them?  It doesn't ring true.  

What's worse, I think, is that Henry, despite faulty beliefs, desired to try to go back to his time to stop his family's suffering. Yeah he was talked out of it and for good reason given the sacrifices made to make the present an even remotely hospitable place.

Mary, well she's not there. She's working with people who we do know tortured her son. Now she may not know that but just that one of their agents went apparently that rogue should be telling. Instead of connecting with both Sam and Dean even in bite size chunks she's completely ignored them. Boys missing? Oh well, let's go on a hunt instead of raking the angel present no matter how broken over the coals to find a way to get them back. Need help on a job? Let's lie to the flesh and blood that would die protecting her to do so and almost get said angel killed.

When a shot from her stolen weapon would have ended it, given that it ended the demon that killed her.

I don't blame the actress or anyone but the writers. I have no sympathy for Mary left at this point. Developing motives is a good thing even if it's not exactly what we as a viewing audience would like. Did I agree with Cas in Season six? Hell no but I got why he was doing it. Even with the writer fail in season five if you look you can get what Michael was doing. Even Lucifer. They may not have been characters you could back but you got the motivations for why these things were happening. Naomi not so much. Angel wars not so much. MoC - well that was just a cluster with Dean made stupid (despite the stellar acting of the episodes with Cain that I would rank in my top ten) and season eleven I just hated everybody at that point and wondered what posing as a deus ex machina would save them.

And now, all Mary leaves me with is another heartbreak, something remembered and glossed over the rate she is going. Or a fiery sacrifice. Either way it's poorly done and it makes me not want to look at the rest of the episodes given what its going to do to the brothers.

What we have now is Sam being a lying lair, Dean as a door mat, Cas falling for heaven's promises and Mary out in the wind about to turn evil. I'm just sad and can't ramp up my enthusiasm for the rest of the season. They even invoked Joshua - which will probably fall flat and just makes me even sadder.