“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam pretty much had to kill her and Dean would've done the same thing if the situation had been reversed.  However it's the aftermath that's different.  In that scenario Sam would've stomped off in a hissy fit.  Dean would've been dragged through the mud by writers for killing Sam's kith and kin, he would've had to apolgise for the rest of the season.  It would've been a Big Deal plotwise.

But - it was Dean's flesh & blood that died - so what the hay....  ?  He gets over things. And of course there's that pretty childhood friend he knifed so coldly.

I don't agree that Sam had to kill her. She had a knife, he had a gun. A shot to the leg would've taken her down, a shot to the arm would've disarmed her. Sam chose to kill her. Him pointing out the correlation with Amy Pond's death confirms to me that's what the writers were going for. But that wasn't the point of my post.

Whether or not there is consensus on why Sam killed the child, the fact remains he did, and it was deemed 'the right thing to do'. Now Dean is being vilified for even wanting to do the same thing (at first anyway). It's just one more layer on the let's 'balance' the scales cake that Dabb & Company are dishing up. We have the S8/give up/don't look nonsense and the S7 kill the supernatural child without consideration. I'm preparing myself for Dean to take a big old swallow of demon blood in order to defeat Michael before this season is over.

 

ETA: @Pondlass1 that is not to say I don't agree 100% with the rest of your post, because I do!

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Imagine if Sam wanted to kill a child, borne of a human and a supernatural being, one who didn't ask to be born and couldn't help their parentage, one who aged into a teenager within hours/days of their birth, one who despite being a threat, was virtually defenseless at the moment of their death (having been cornered by an experienced hunter and with no other abilities beyond super strength to fight back with - no world-ending potential at all). Consider, just for a moment, that maybe emotions unrelated to that child had a bearing on Sam deciding its fate. Imagine if he then killed that child in front of its father because of what it might do, nuture vs nature not even being a consideration, never mind being given a chance. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine it. It happened.

RIP Emma.

And  it was brushed aside by both the writers and the fandom as if it was nothing, while Dean was raked over the coals by both the writers and the fandom even back then for killing Amy. And sure, there were some who were only mad at Dean for lying to Sam about it(which he had a very good reason for and stated it in The Mentalists), but there were twice as many who thought, and still think to this day, that the purpose of that story was to show how hypocritical Dean was because they thought that he would have done the same for Sam as Amy did for her son(which I do not agree with in the least-but that IS something that I could see Sam doing to save Dean, as to me, Sam is by far the more ruthless brother when it comes to "breaking a few eggs" to achieve his desired end on this show); so empathy and sympathy for Amy in that regard from Sam-sure-but not from Dean-not a wholly HumanDean anyway, no way. Not IMO.

IMO, Dean would never countenance the killing/sacrificing of one human just to save another-not even Sam(Dean even looked sick to his stomach when they were draining the demon blood from the demons/possessed humans in Swan Song), again not IMO-and that was why one of his greatest regrets(if not his biggest regret) in the Gadreel debacle was the loss of Kevin. The early season episode, Jus in Bello, established these core characteristics in both brothers, IMO. And then there was the very obvious guilt that Dean experienced because of the lying and, yes, possibly even killing her because of the child kitsune that was left behind and whom Dean did not kill because he'd never killed.

But that Sam and Emma thing has always, always, rankled for numerous reasons. Sam was so cold and unfeeling and so far from empathetic concerning Dean when he killed Dean's child, Emma(and yes, she was his child, Sam-denial didn't cut it for anyone-not even Dean) that it almost seemed as if it was just payback for Amy more than anything else; but even if it wasn't, there was no regret or empathy whatsoever towards Dean from Sam over that kill, and it didn't even create a ripple in the fandom. Imagine that. Pffffffffttttt.

Tell me again who you think the mean and cold and more ruthless brother is on this show, present day writers.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!! that Amy/Emma storyline will never not rankle-especially because of how quickly and easily it was dismissed by both the writers and within this fandom-some of whom should look in the mirror when the words hypocrite and hypocrisy and hypocritical choices and thoughts are tossed around.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't agree that Sam had to kill her. She had a knife, he had a gun. A shot to the leg would've taken her down, a shot to the arm would've disarmed her. Sam chose to kill her. Him pointing out the correlation with Amy Pond's death confirms to me that's what the writers were going for. But that wasn't the point of my post.

Whether or not there is consensus on why Sam killed the child, the fact remains he did, and it was deemed 'the right thing to do'. Now Dean is being vilified for even wanting to do the same thing (at first anyway). It's just one more layer on the let's 'balance' the scales cake that Dabb & Company are dishing up. We have the S8/give up/don't look nonsense and the S7 kill the supernatural child without consideration. I'm preparing myself for Dean to take a big old swallow of demon blood in order to defeat Michael before this season is over.

 

ETA: @Pondlass1 that is not to say I don't agree 100% with the rest of your post, because I do!

Again This. So much. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Edited November 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[companionenvy]

Honestly, I hate the Amazon episode.  Whether or not Emma was technically Dean's daughter in the conventional sense, there should have been huge emotional repercussions from the incident. No way that should be handled in an MOW episode.

Not that I think Sam was necessarily wrong to kill Emma. But you're right that, if the show had wanted Emma to stick around, they could just as easily gone for the "shoot to wound" scenario. 

[catrox14]

IMO, the only reason for the Emma episode to exist was for Dean to be shown to be weak, using bad judgment, and had questionable hunting skills because he was emotionally compromised by his grief over the major losses he suffered starting with Cas' betrayal, subsequent turn into CrazyGod/Leviathan Cas and death, along with Bobby's death, never mind the loss of his own identity with the LeviaChesters and giving up the Impala.

Sam killing Emma was consistently shown to be the right thing because she was a "clear and present danger" to Dean and that Sam was doing the right thing to save Dean. 

Yet now, with a similar situation with Jack, Dean is totally wrong and abusive to boot, for thinking he will be evil, that Jack is a potentially clear and present danger who has uncontrollable powers. It's being stated implicitly and explicitly that Dean is so emotionally compromised over the loss of Cas, Mary and Crowley that he is using poor judgment for NOT trusting Jack, and worse, directing his anger to Jack and Sam.

It sure would be a neat twist, and I will eat every hat, if it turns out that it was really Sam who was emotionally compromised to the point that his instincts are questionable re Jack. That his inability to accept Mary's death (which he's actually right about) clouded his judgment and he couldn't see that Jack was playing him. Honestly, I will probably cheer if that that happens, well maybe not cheer, but I will shout "Fuck yeah!" and not because I want Sam to be an idiot, because I don't, rather that Dean will be vindicated from an awful narrative that has implicitly and explicitly been painting Dean as a child abuser with Jack. It's the literal worst thing the show has ever done to Dean. EVER.

[Reganne]

IMO, the Emma situation can't really truly be compared to Jack or Amy.  With Amy, you had Dean go back and kill her without telling Sam.  Then he continued to keep that information from Sam until Sam found out from a Leviathan.  

Jack is also completely different as he is not threatening to kill anyone.  He is being portrayed as innocent and naive. Emma right out said that she was going to kill Dean.  THe only time she tried to play innocent was when she saw Sam and knew her life was in danger.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It sure would be a neat twist, and I will eat every hat, if it turns out that it was really Sam who was emotionally compromised to the point that his instincts are questionable re Jack. That his inability to accept Mary's death (which he's actually right about) clouded his judgment and he couldn't see that Jack was playing him. Honestly, I will probably cheer if that that happens, well maybe not cheer, but I will shout "Fuck yeah!" and not because I want Sam to be an idiot, because I don't, rather that Dean will be vindicated from an awful narrative that has implicitly and explicitly been painting Dean as a child abuser with Jack. It's the literal worst thing the show has ever done to Dean. EVER.

This will never happen under Dabb. He's in love with the SuperStSam narrative and he doesn't give a hoot about Dean or how Dean comes off in any of the storylines he's got going on excepting that he'll ill use him to make Sam and even other characters look better. JMO from what I've seen of his showrunning so far.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Reganne said:

IMO, the Emma situation can't really truly be compared to Jack or Amy.  With Amy, you had Dean go back and kill her without telling Sam.  Then he continued to keep that information from Sam until Sam found out from a Leviathan.  

Jack is also completely different as he is not threatening to kill anyone.  He is being portrayed as innocent and naive. Emma right out said that she was going to kill Dean.  THe only time she tried to play innocent was when she saw Sam and knew her life was in danger.  

Disagree. Jack may not be actively threatening anyone, but he's already hurt people (Emma didn't) and demonstrated that he can't control his power. Emma was indoctrinated/brainwashed with the assignment to kill her father and no one else. We'll never know if Emma could've been nurtured passed her nature because Sam took that chance away.

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Jack is also completely different as he is not threatening to kill anyone.  He is being portrayed as innocent and naive. Emma right out said that she was going to kill Dean.  THe only time she tried to play innocent was when she saw Sam and knew her life was in danger.  

Which I think is super-manipulative writing. Jack is a thousand times more dangerous and powerful than Emma the Amazon. But the current narrative plays him as a baby who wouldn`t hurt a fly right now. And he is of course super-terrified of some ordinary human. It`s wildly over the top in one direction.

They played Amara as an actual baby more scary and dangerous than Jack right now. All to push the narrative of super-sweet Sam who sees Sam 2.0 in Jack and super-mean Dean the unreasonably rage monster.  

If Sam had seen himself in Emma somehow, he would not have killed her. And she wasn`t a super-insurmountable threat at that point. The situation was under control. Dean had a weapon and they were just talking. Yes, her eyes flashed instinctively when Sam charged in with his gun. Just as Jack instinctively used his powers on the brothers in the Premiere. 

Emma is dead because Sam didn`t relate to her in any way. If he didn`t see himself in Jack, it would be largely the same thing, only Jack can`t be killed so easily. Or at all, at the moment, that we know of. 

That`s why I`m not flowing in a puddle of goo at Sam`s feet for being the newly canonized saint of the show.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Disagree. Jack may not be actively threatening anyone, but he's already hurt people (Emma didn't) and demonstrated that he can't control his power. Emma was indoctrinated/brainwashed with the assignment to kill her father and no one else. We'll never know if Emma could've been nurtured passed her nature because Sam took that chance away.

No one has been hurt bad by Jack and for me a lot of it has to do with intention.  So far in the season, Jack has saved more than he has hurt.   Not to mention... Sam and Dean have no way to kill Jack at the moment.  

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Disagree. Jack may not be actively threatening anyone, but he's already hurt people (Emma didn't) and demonstrated that he can't control his power. Emma was indoctrinated/brainwashed with the assignment to kill her father and no one else. We'll never know if Emma could've been nurtured passed her nature because Sam took that chance away.

I'd say what separates Jack and Emma right now is that Emma had already been nurtured, even if it was brainwashing and indoctrination, while Jack hadn't been nurtured at all. It's the difference between adopting a teenager or adopting a baby.

I'll also say that I think intentions speak a lot louder to me. Jack may not have control over his powers right now, but he hasn't intentionally harmed anyone yet except in self defense--of course this could change, though. Emma walked into that room with the intention of killing Dean and at no point did she convince me her intention had changed.

So, yeah, they probably could've tried to deprogram Emma, but I'd argue they really weren't in a position to do that back then. Things are different now and it's not like they have any other options right now. I mean, what else can they do with Jack, lock him in the dungeon? Can he even be held anywhere against his own will? They clearly have no advantage over his powers, so getting an advantage over the human side is really their only play right now.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It sure would be a neat twist, and I will eat every hat, if it turns out that it was really Sam who was emotionally compromised to the point that his instincts are questionable re Jack. That his inability to accept Mary's death (which he's actually right about) clouded his judgment and he couldn't see that Jack was playing him.

I think that's precisely what they've been doing, myself. Like I've said all along, I think both Sam and Dean will be right and wrong about Jack. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd say what separates Jack and Emma right now is that Emma had already been nurtured, even if it was brainwashing and indoctrination, while Jack hadn't been nurtured at all. It's the difference between adopting a teenager or adopting a baby.

I'll also say that I think intentions speak a lot louder to me. Jack may not have control over his powers right now, but he hasn't intentionally harmed anyone yet except in self defense--of course this could change, though. Emma walked into that room with the intention of killing Dean and at no point did she convince me her intention had changed.

So, yeah, they probably could've tried to deprogram Emma, but I'd argue they really weren't in a position to do that back then. Things are different now and it's not like they have any other options right now. I mean, what else can they do with Jack, lock him in the dungeon? Can he even be held anywhere against his own will? They clearly have no advantage over his powers, so getting an advantage over the human side is really their only play right now.

I think that's precisely what they've been doing, myself. Like I've said all along, I think both Sam and Dean will be right and wrong about Jack. 

But they are/were both days old, and one of them is the son of Lucifer. Regardless of intent, Emma never actually hurt anyone. Sam made a unilateral choice in both these cases, but only one of them earned his empathy. It doesn't really matter if they could kill Jack, Sam wouldn't let him anyway. Dean didn't get that option with his daughter.

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, Reganne said:

IMO, the Emma situation can't really truly be compared to Jack or Amy.  With Amy, you had Dean go back and kill her without telling Sam.  Then he continued to keep that information from Sam until Sam found out from a Leviathan.  

Jack is also completely different as he is not threatening to kill anyone.  He is being portrayed as innocent and naive. Emma right out said that she was going to kill Dean.  THe only time she tried to play innocent was when she saw Sam and knew her life was in danger.  

 

@gonzosgirrl already outlined the fair comparison of being half monster/half human so that is comparable.

Funny thing though with Emma that I don't think has been mentioned in all of this is that Emma was shown resisting the indoctrination before she became a teenager. She was resisting and hesitating to eat the meat, which tells me that somewhere inside she did not want to become the monster that would kill her father. I'm putting that to Dean's DNA.

Quote

INT. WOMEN’S HOUSE – NIGHT

EMMA, looking older than she did in the afternoon, is wearing a white dress. The WOMAN in a black jacket addresses her and other girls.

WOMAN:
On this special night, you join an exceptional family. You are ready to take your places alongside us and learn our traditions.

Another woman holds a tray with pieces of flesh out to the first girl in line. Another woman behind her holds a tray with glasses of milk.

WOMAN:
This is a tribute to the one who created and protects us.

The women carrying trays move down the line of five girls.

WOMAN:
We hunt for her. We kill for her. And now we consume that kill as a symbol of unity with those who have completed their blood missions and furthered the life of the tribe.

EMMA is still holding her piece of flesh. The other girls have all eaten theirs.

WOMAN:
Go ahead, Emma. You need to eat.

For a deadly killer, she sure took her sweet time deciding to kill Dean.  She didn't attack him right away. She could have stabbed him the second he opened the door or the moment he let her in and turned his back on her. She spent a good bit of time explaining to him why she thought she had to kill him rather than actually trying to kill him and that was BEFORE Dean went to the fridge and drew his weapon on her. Then she continued to monologue about how she had no choice and still didn't advance on Dean even after Sam burst in. Her eyes flared because she was threatened. She loomed a lot and then Sam shot her.

Jack has the power to literally control space and time. I offer that Jack may not have been a malevolent threat but he is far more dangerous than Emma because he can't control his power and has the added bonus of being the Devil's spawn and one that apparently can't be killed.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But they are/were both days old, and one of them is the son of Lucifer. 

It's a false equivalency with the ages because Emma was days old and had been indoctrinated all that time when Sam killed her, Jack was not even a day old when he decided not to kill him. Like I said, it's the difference of adopting a teenager and a baby. Jack was a clean slate when Sam "adopted" him, Emma wasn't.

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It doesn't really matter if they could kill Jack, Sam wouldn't let him anyway. Dean didn't get that option with his daughter.

I believe Dean did have the option and he availed himself of it too. But she chose to be the monster. And, judging by how Dean wasn't upset by Sam's decision, it seems to me, Dean knew she had to die, but given the losses they'd suffered he couldn't pull the trigger himself.

I disagree that Sam wouldn't "let" Dean kill Jack. The only reason Dean didn't kill Jack was because he has no way to do it. Sam may not have liked it if Dean had been successful in killing Jack, but Sam couldn't and wasn't able to stop Dean from trying.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam may not have liked it if Dean had been successful in killing Jack, but Sam couldn't and wasn't able to stop Dean from trying.

Obviously, the gun wasn`t going to work but Sam did try to push Dean`s arm to direct the shot away from Jack. Other than that, Dean has made no attempts on Jack. And Sam would jump on Dean doubly hard now that he sees Jack like a mirror of himself. So even if Dean found a way, Sam would absolutely do anything to not allow him the opportunity.

Since they portray Jack as the nougat baby who was apparently only edgy and mature in the womb, it`s a moot point. Jack could tear universes apart but the show wants to pretend like he is a harmless puppy Sam has to defend. And Dean kicks puppies who are helpless and hapless against him.  

Quote

And, judging by how Dean wasn't upset by Sam's decision, it seems to me, Dean knew she had to die, but given the losses they'd suffered he couldn't pull the trigger himself.

There was nothing in that scene suggesting he couldn`t or wouldn`t have done it if Emma had jumped him with bared teeth. Sam just charged in, rah rah and did it. And then brought up Amy so I did see it as tit for tat.

And Dean wasn`t upset because it`s just Dean and therefore it wasn`t that important, just a random monster killed. If it had been Sam`s daughter (however much you want to argue parental contribution), they would have made a big deal out of it IMO.

If this were the Season 2 phase where Sam was on his "I`m doomed to my beige destiny" trip, he`d spearhead the "Jack needs to be toast" brigade. Of course in that scenario, Jack wouldn`t be played so baby-like because then that would make Sam look bad and they wouldn`t do it to this degree.   

Edited November 9, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's a false equivalency with the ages because Emma was days old and had been indoctrinated all that time when Sam killed her, Jack was not even a day old when he decided not to kill him. Like I said, it's the difference of adopting a teenager and a baby. Jack was a clean slate when Sam "adopted" him, Emma wasn't.

I believe Dean did have the option and he availed himself of it too. But she chose to be the monster. And, judging by how Dean wasn't upset by Sam's decision, it seems to me, Dean knew she had to die, but given the losses they'd suffered he couldn't pull the trigger himself.

I disagree that Sam wouldn't "let" Dean kill Jack. The only reason Dean didn't kill Jack was because he has no way to do it. Sam may not have liked it if Dean had been successful in killing Jack, but Sam couldn't and wasn't able to stop Dean from trying.

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree on all points.

That last one though - Sam did stop Dean from shooting Jack, regardless of whether the shot would've killed him or not. His first and only instinct was to knock Dean's arm away. Since that's the only time Dean actively tried to kill him, there's no way to know with certainty whether Sam would've tried to stop him again - but the preponderance of evidence, Sam's every word and deed since that first shot, say he would have.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That last one though - Sam did stop Dean from shooting Jack, regardless of whether the shot would've killed him or not. His first and only instinct was to knock Dean's arm away. Since that's the only time Dean actively tried to kill him, there's no way to know with certainty whether Sam would've tried to stop him again - but the preponderance of evidence, Sam's every word and deed since that first shot, say he would have.

My point was: if Dean really wants to kill the Spawn, Sam can try to stop him, but Sam is not the boss of Dean nor is Dean the boss of Sam. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My point was: if Dean really wants to kill the Spawn, Sam can try to stop him, but Sam is not the boss of Dean nor is Dean the boss of Sam. 

I understand that this isn't really the point, and it wasn't even Sam's intention, but stopping Dean from trying to kill Spawn was actually good, because Spawn may have gotten mad, and had Spawn been more in control of his powers that would have ended badly.  And, before everybody starts pointing out the fallacy in my logic, please note, that I already said I realize that wasn't what Sam was doing.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, judging by how Dean wasn't upset by Sam's decision, it seems to me, Dean knew she had to die, but given the losses they'd suffered he couldn't pull the trigger himself.

Dean was upset by Sam's decision. It came up when Sam called Dean out for not being able to kill her and then Sam said, "She wasn't your daughter really" and Dean said, rather ruefully" Yeah, actually, she was. And she also happened to be a man killing monster". Dean was weary and tired and wasn't going to argue with Sam but I will posit that on some level Dean regretted that Sam killed Emma.

 

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

but the preponderance of evidence, Sam's every word and deed since that first shot, say he would have.

And that's supported directly and explicitly with the following from the Big Empty.

Quote

Jack: Dean can't even look at me. He wants to kill me.

Sam: I won't let that happen.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e04

 So yes, IMO, Sam will act to stop Dean from killing Jack, whether that means manipulating Dean out of killing him and working to save him, or physically preventing Dean from killing him.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I understand that this isn't really the point, and it wasn't even Sam's intention, but stopping Dean from trying to kill Spawn was actually good, because Spawn may have gotten mad, and had Spawn been more in control of his powers that would have ended badly.  And, before everybody starts pointing out the fallacy in my logic, please note, that I already said I realize that wasn't what Sam was doing.

It didn't seem to me that Spawn differentiated between the two of them at that point - he flung both of them into the wall and knocked them unconscious. He was equally afraid of both of them at first in the police station, and there hasn't been any indication since that I can recall that Jack realized Sam tried to stop Dean in the cabin. He didn't kill them immediately because of... reasons?

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Sam is not the boss of Dean

Ultimately he usually gets Dean to cave to him as he proved this Season. Then comes positive reinforcement for proper behaviour. Sam expressed his dislike for John`s drill seargant ways last episode (and it was a reiteration on Dean being pathetic where that worked vs. Sam and Jack "I have a mind of my own" where it doesn`t) but just because he uses a different method doesn`t mean it isn`t the same end result. 

IMO Sam is big on appearance. Ruby could play him for a fool all day long but she did it in a way that appealed to him and allowed him the appearance of being strong and the boss. Equally, he doesn`t use John`s ways with Dean, allowing for the appearance that he doesn`t hold the power but the show has shown me that yup, Sam is the boss of Dean. And apparently I`m supposed to applaud that. Personally, I`m equally dejected by Dean "yes Sir"-ing John and caving to "do it for me"-Sam when he clearly expressed boundaries before that aren`t respected. You can add Mary into the mix, too. Unfortunately Dean is never allowed to stand up to any of his family for too long before being brought back to heel.      

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My point was: if Dean really wants to kill the Spawn, Sam can try to stop him, but Sam is not the boss of Dean nor is Dean the boss of Sam. 

Someone needs to tell this to Sam, cause he's already told Jack he wouldn't let Dean kill him.

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I understand that this isn't really the point, and it wasn't even Sam's intention, but stopping Dean from trying to kill Spawn was actually good, because Spawn may have gotten mad, and had Spawn been more in control of his powers that would have ended badly.  And, before everybody starts pointing out the fallacy in my logic, please note, that I already said I realize that wasn't what Sam was doing.

This does make me wonder why Sam was so eager to stop Dean from killing Jack. I mean Sam didn't know what Jack could do or not do. That puzzles me. Like was Sam already thinking 20 steps ahead when he went to check on Jack. Did Jack somehow mind whammy Sammy into protecting him?

Maybe we'll find out that it's Amara with Dean 2.0 that Sam is compelled to protect Jack against his better judgement.

Edited November 9, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Someone needs to tell this to Sam, cause he's already told Jack he wouldn't let Dean kill him.

This does make me wonder why Sam was so eager to stop Dean from killing Jack. I mean Sam didn't know what Jack could do or not do. That puzzles me. Like was Sam already thinking 20 steps ahead when he went to check on Jack. Did Jack somehow mind whammy Sammy into protecting him?

Maybe we'll find out that it's Amara with Dean 2.0 that Sam is compelled to protect Jack against his better judgement.

I think there was a reason Jack's first (and second and third and.... ) word was 'Father'. They were intent on woobifying him right from the jump.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Someone needs to tell this to Sam, cause he's already told Jack he wouldn't let Dean kill him.

So? Sam can say whatever he wants, doesn't mean Dean has to oblige him or that it's actually truth. Dean--and Sam--has a mind of his own and can make his own decisions. Like I said, if Dean really wanted to kill the Spawn, Sam can surely try to stop him, but only Dean can control Dean and Sam can control Sam.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there was a reason Jack's first (and second and third and.... ) word was 'Father'. They were intent on woobifying him right from the jump.

You know what's odd to me is that Sam has never made the argument that Jack's humanity might win out over his "monster" side. He's only been saying that he'll be good if he just really wants to be and can be trained up right. I mean why not suggest to Jack that his humanity will be what stops him from going dark side. . That hasn't been mentioned once AFAIK by either Sam nor Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there was a reason Jack's first (and second and third and.... ) word was 'Father'. They were intent on woobifying him right from the jump.

I thought it was another twist on the Star Wars, "Luke, I am your father" moment. Similar to how they did it when Cass first took over Jimmy and told Claire he was not her father.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know what's odd to me is that Sam has never made the argument that Jack's humanity might win out over his "monster" side. He's only been saying that he'll be good if he just really wants to be and can be trained up right. I mean why not suggest to Jack that his humanity will be what stops him from going dark side. . That hasn't been mentioned once AFAIK by either Sam nor Dean. 

Isn't that the argument Sam made to Asmodeus-disguised-as-Donatello? Actually, I seem to recall Sam saying a couple times that Jack is half human... ?

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Someone needs to tell this to Sam, cause he's already told Jack he wouldn't let Dean kill him.

So, Dean told Sam way back when that he was never going to let anything bad happen to him. Doesn't mean Dean was, or thought he was, the boss of YED.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, Dean told Sam way back when that he was never going to let anything bad happen to him. Doesn't mean Dean was, or thought he was, the boss of YED.

Huh? I'm sorry I don't follow this analogy. Maybe I've lost the thread of this discussion at some point. 

Sam has said he will protect Jack from Dean. I don't understand what that has to do with what Dean told Sam about protecting him from the YED? That was their common enemy they both wanted to kill.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Huh? I'm sorry I don't follow this analogy. Maybe I've lost the thread of this discussion at some point. 

Sam has said he will protect Jack from Dean. I don't understand what that has to do with what Dean told Sam about protecting him from the YED? That was their common enemy they both wanted to kill.

Sam said that he wouldn't let Dean kill Jack. In other words that he would protect him.  I believe you made the comment that someone should tell SAm that he's not the boss of Dean.  That's what I was quoting anyway.  Dean is still free to try to kill Jack.  Sam is free to try to save Jack from Dean.  It doesn't mean that either one is bossing the other brother around.  Because they are both free to do what they wish. 

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam said that he wouldn't let Dean kill Jack. In other words that he would protect him.  I believe you made the comment that someone should tell SAm that he's not the boss of Dean.  That's what I was quoting anyway.  Dean is still free to try to kill Jack.  Sam is free to try to save Jack from Dean.  It doesn't mean that either one is bossing the other brother around.  Because they are both free to do what they wish. 

I think the root of this conversation was this, from DDD in response to me:

Quote

 Sam may not have liked it if Dean had been successful in killing Jack, but Sam couldn't and wasn't able to stop Dean from trying.

I said Sam could and did stop Dean from trying (in 12x01) and somehow it ended up being about one bossing the other.

And I also believe his promise to Jack that he wouldn't let Dean kill him absolutely implies he'd do whatever was in his power to stop him should he try, the same as Dean's promise to Sam was implicit. I honestly don't see how anything else could be inferred.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the root of this conversation was this, from DDD in response to me:

I said Sam could and did stop Dean from trying (in 12x01) and somehow it ended up being about one bossing the other.

I was actually responding to someone saying Sam wouldn't "let" Dean kill Jack. Which, IMO, implies Sam was in charge and making all the decisions. Which IMO is not the case.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was actually responding to someone saying Sam wouldn't "let" Dean kill Jack. Which, IMO, implies Sam was in charge and making all the decisions. Which IMO is not the case.

It was Sam who said that to Jack about Dean. I was quoting the character himself saying "I won't LET that happen".  I don't really know how that became 'Sam being the boss of anyone". It's Sam telling Jack that he intends to prevent Dean from killing Jack. That's it.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was Sam who said that to Jack about Dean. I was quoting the character himself saying "I won't LET that happen".  I don't really know how that became 'Sam being the boss of anyone". It's Sam telling Jack that he intends to prevent Dean from killing Jack. That's it.

Actually, the conversation started before that. 

[Res]

While it was a watchable episode tonight, and I get that Dean doesn't think that he matters in general, why did they also have to have him say, "Sam keeps trying to fix it but I just keep dragging him down." He was suicidal enough by just not being able to save Cas, Mary, the kid, etc. Why did they have to make him say this about himself as well? It just seems to me like another dig at Dean's character by the writers IMO, even though this writer was definitely MUCH better than the others.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Ultimately he usually gets Dean to cave to him as he proved this Season. Then comes positive reinforcement for proper behaviour. Sam expressed his dislike for John`s drill seargant ways last episode (and it was a reiteration on Dean being pathetic where that worked vs. Sam and Jack "I have a mind of my own" where it doesn`t) but just because he uses a different method doesn`t mean it isn`t the same end result.

I disagree. I think it goes both ways. Sam doesn't "usually" get what he wants. He did - maybe - last season, and he did in (awful) season 8 when he insisted Dean get rid of Benny (and I will never buy that that was unintentional trashing of Sam. The writers tried to make Benny as cuddly and sympathetic as possible before they had Sam take Elizabeth away from him and then demand Dean dump him.) But Sam didn't get Dean to do anything really in season 9 or 10 that I remember. And it took a long time before Dean decided he'd go with Sam to talk to Lucifer... and of course that went wrong, because that seems to be a thing with this show. If Sam doesn't listen to Dean, usually bad things happen.

Quote

Unfortunately Dean is never allowed to stand up to any of his family for too long before being brought back to heel.

I'd argue that it's the same for Sam. As I mentioned above, when Sam tries to do something Dean tells him not to or tries to do his own thing... usually bad things happen.

[companionenvy]

5 hours ago, Res said:

While it was a watchable episode tonight, and I get that Dean doesn't think that he matters in general, why did they also have to have him say, "Sam keeps trying to fix it but I just keep dragging him down." He was suicidal enough by just not being able to save Cas, Mary, the kid, etc. Why did they have to make him say this about himself as well? It just seems to me like another dig at Dean's character by the writers IMO, even though this writer was definitely MUCH better than the others.

Sounds like classic Dean self loathing, IMO, rather than a dig by the writers. Billie pretty comprehensively rejects Dean's "I'm worthless" perspective. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, Dean has regularly held himself to impossible standards. And he was suicidal so pretty normal to think you are no good to anyone.

[Wayward Son]

Putting this in here to be safe, since there's an element of "vs" to it! If it belongs in Unpopular opinions please let me know Mods and I'll move it.

Wow, just wow, just as I thought the Dabb administration's utter contempt for Castiel couldn't become any clearer this episode came along. Hats off to Glynn and Yockey, because between them, they made sure to let us  know how utterly pointless Castiel's existence on this show really is. 

So to refresh, when Castiel dies this is allowed and his revival is a complete fluke as opposed to a part of the grand design. The Guardian of the Empty's reaction is simply "What are you doing awake? Ugh fine you're so annoying I'll shove you back to earth to get you out of my hair". On the other hand, when Dean dies it's a dramatic event, reapers run screaming through the veil and the new Death herself appears to tell Dean his life is oh so important and he will be resurrected because he has work to do! Unlike that utter loser Castiel who is completely expendable, which might I add they also made sure to point out in the Dabb penned The Devil in the Details. 

Then there's the direct parallels in the words the characters use. When Dean desperately speaks of needing a win a friend of his is revived, while when Castiel says he needs a win his reward is to die a pointless death during the next episode he appears in. I suppose I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Cas has a semi useful purpose as heroic Dean's cheerleader and I'm sure the Dean girls will love that, but not this viewer. I care about Castiel in his own right rather than as simply one part of a ship or friendship. 

Congratulations Dabb administration with special mentions to Yockey, Glynn, Berens and Dabb himself! You've succeeded in making me go from excited about season 13 to seriously contemplating quitting in the space of 40 minutes. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I suppose I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Cas has a semi useful purpose as heroic Dean's cheerleader and I'm sure the Dean girls will love that, but not this viewer. I care about Castiel in his own right rather than as simply one part of a ship. 

While I loved the episode and it much needed for me after last week, I completely understand the sentiment. As I completely understand the "fuck everything, this show is horrible" mindset. I was there for Season 12.B and the first four eps of 13. And many times before.  

I can`t say your misgivings are invalid either, just because I don`t feel them to the same degree. Those are the exact same kind of things that would (and do) rankle if/when they happen to my favourite character. I`ve made no beef in this thread that I see Sam as super-favoured by the current showrunner and writing team and Dean super-disfavoured. However, Cas is not far behind in the disfavour. And he has been through multiple showrunners who have gone through awkward and lazy attempt after attempt to artifically include him in the show. By which I don`t actually mean I wanted him not included, quite the opposite, I wanted him included organically. The character worked wonderfully as an integral part of the mytharc in Seasons 4 and 5.

After that, though, his storylines were often potentially cool - sometimes so much that I wished they were the mytharc and the brothers were in it, too so it could have played out with the usual screentime and exploration alloted to that. 

Now I will say that supernatural-wise, yet again, I think Cas has the most potential of a cool storyline because I believe the entire Empty thing is not done and over with. However, what the execution of it will bring? I can`t be that optimistic given the show`s history. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Putting this in here to be safe, since there's an element of "vs" to it! If it belongs in Unpopular opinions please let me know Mods and I'll move it.

Wow, just wow, just as I thought the Dabb administration's utter contempt for Castiel couldn't become any clearer this episode came along. Hats off to Glynn and Yockey, because between them, they made sure to let us  know how utterly pointless Castiel's existence on this show really is. 

So to refresh, when Castiel dies this is allowed and his revival is a complete fluke as opposed to a part of the grand design. The Guardian of the Empty's reaction is simply "What are you doing awake? Ugh fine you're so annoying I'll shove you back to earth to get you out of my hair". On the other hand, when Dean dies it's a dramatic event, reapers run screaming through the veil and the new Death herself appears to tell Dean his life is oh so important and he will be resurrected because he has work to do! Unlike that utter loser Castiel who is completely expendable, which might I add they also made sure to point out in the Dabb penned The Devil in the Details. 

Then there's the direct parallels in the words the characters use. When Dean desperately speaks of needing a win a friend of his is revived, while when Castiel says he needs a win his reward is to die a pointless death during the next episode he appears in. I suppose I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Cas has a semi useful purpose as heroic Dean's cheerleader and I'm sure the Dean girls will love that, but not this viewer. I care about Castiel in his own right rather than as simply one part of a ship. 

Congratulations Dabb administration with special mentions to Yockey, Glynn, Berens and Dabb himself! You've succeeded in making me go from excited about season 13 to seriously contemplating quitting in the space of 40 minutes. 

I'm not trying to talk you out of your anger but just a couple of things to think about that might help 

Cas' story is far from over. Cas was being controlled by Jack or Lucifer in s12, He saw something as paradise and he died trying to protect it and it is highly debatable whether Cas did it on his own or was compelled. IMO, he was compelled out of his own control re stealing the Colt et 

Presuming that is Cas and not an Alt!Cas of some kind, Cas managed to get out of the Empty of his own accord. He outsmarted the Empty and even if it took the threat of annoying the Empty to insanity, it apparently worked.  He could have given up and gone back to sleep but he was determined to back to Earth and do something important.  IMO just as Dean and Sam have more work to do, so does Castiel. He's going to get his BIG WIN. He's just not there yet.

And I get it. I do. I've been frustrated with Dean's SL for a couple of seasons now and especially over the past few episodes. 

As to being one half of a ship, Dean fans have that same experience when it comes to Destiel. Some Cas fans only seen Dean as part of the ship and some . As the lone Destiel shipper around these parts, I still see Dean and Cas as individuals in their own right and well beyond the ship.

Cas and Dean are important to each other full stop whether you ship them or not. Even though, IMO, there was ton of romantic imagery surrounding their reunion, they were actually on opposite sides to a degree. Dean was willing to stay dead because he had no hope. Billie said 'Sorry, it's not your time yet'.

Jack may have awakened Cas but Cas saved HIMSELF once he was awake. That's a win right there. He was NOT willing to stay dead because he DOES have hope. And he's stubborn. Cas is a beacon of hope right now. And IMO Dean, Sam and Jack were Cas' beacons of hope.

And now they all have work to do IMO. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Cas managed to get out of the Empty of his own accord. He outsmarted the Empty and even if it took the threat of annoying the Empty to insanity, it apparently worked

I thought it was right out of the Doctor Strange movie last year. And it was played as a clever, funny and unique way for the hero to outsmart a immensely powerful cosmic entity. I cheered in the movie for Benedict Cumberbatch and I cheered for Cas in the ep. 

[Wayward Son]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas and Dean are important to each other full stop whether you ship them or not.

My issue isn’t the actual bond between Dean and Castiel. I am aware that it exists and view it as a friendship, although others are more than welcome to view it more romantically than I do.

However, what I’m complaining about is the fact that since S11 Dabb and Co have been telling us that it is the only worthwhile thing about Castiel. Since S11 they’ve been consistently both showing (e.g. through the contrast between important Dean needing to be revived while unimportant Cas should have stayed dead and got revived by a fluke) and telling (the angel talking about how Sam and Dean are the real heroes and Cas is not) how unimportant to the overall narrative they regard him. Not to mention making him responsible for most of the main issues faced by the brothers for the last 2.5 seasons. 

 

I get that mains will always be more prominent than secondary characters, but I have never  seen a show make such a point of trying to tell us “character A and B are our heroes and Character C is a pleb without any real importance”. I don’t know if it’s just Dabb dislikes Castiel, or it’s intended to be an aggressive dig at the “Castiel is a third lead crowd” i.e. he’s determined to show us “He is /not/ a lead... these two are our leads”. Either way it bloody sucks and needs to stop. Let him be a secondary character without making a point of how unimportant he should be considered. 

 

I think the closest analogy to my issue with Cas being only considered important in the context of supporting Dean is this; I’m sure not every Dean girl dislikes his relationship with Sam. I’m sure there are many who quite like it. However, that didn’t stop them from feeling annoyed when they felt 8B was telling us that Dean’s only useful role was acting as nurse to the more heroic Sam. Relationships with other characters are fine, they’re what makes a good show IMO, but characters should also be considered relevant and badass in their own right too. 

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And now they all have work to do IMO

Really? Because according to Yockey and his mouthpiece Billy only Sam and Dean have work to do.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, what I’m complaining about is the fact that since S11 Dabb and Co have been telling us that it is the only worthwhile thing about Castiel. Since S11 they’ve been consistently both showing (e.g. through the contrast between important Dean needing to be revived while unimportant Cas should have stayed Dean and got revived by a fluke) and telling (the angel talking about how Sam and Dean are the real heroes and Cas is not) how unimportant to the overall narrative they regard him. Not to mention making him responsible for most of the main issues faced by the brothers for the last 2.5 seasons. 

I am not trying to minimize your concerns and if you can't stand to see Cas make mistakes, I get it. I look at Sam in s4 and Dean in s9 and s10 and they had SL which I was happy to see even if they upset me. Cas has mytharc functionality and emotional POV with Dean and Sam, and now Jack.

Cas has storylines. Actual storylines.  Whether one likes those SL or not is a different matter but he has them. Dean hasn't had a SL in 2 years. 

Sam and Dean broke the world with the Darkness not Cas. He was following Sam's guidance. Everything he has done as been trying to help them. He's kind of a victim of their mistakes over the past 3 years. Yes he made choice. I think Cas still sees them as in "his charge" like when he first arrived and he loves them. They are his family.

Billie thinks Cas is dead and in the Empty. She's not going to talk about Cas having a job to do because as far as she knows he's in the Empty so she can't assign work for him.

I'm just saying that I believe good things are coming for Cas. I didn't until yesterday. It might take a while to get there and I can 100% understand why you might not want to stay the course. I hope you do though.

[ILoveReading]

I'll believe that Dean is important when it plays out on screen and not in a Dean's important because he makes sure Sam fulfils his destiny kind of way. 

[Wayward Son]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am not trying to minimize your concerns and if you can't stand to see Cas make mistakes, I get it. I look at Sam in s4 and Dean in s9 and s10 and they had SL which I was happy to see even if they upset me. Cas has mytharc functionality and emotional POV with Dean and Sam, and now Jack.

Cas has storylines. Actual storylines.  Whether one likes those SL or not is a different matter but he has them. Dean hasn't had a SL in 2 years. 

It’s not that I can’t stand seeing Cas making mistakes it’s the fact he’s not allowed to make up for them. For instance in season 4 Sam made several major mistakes. However, he was allowed to clean up some of those mistakes. He brought Lucifer into the world through his hubris but then was the one to put him back in the cage. I don’t want to get into a big Swan Song debate since I know it’s controversial in fandom. I’m just saying the writers did attempt to let Sam make up for Sam’s mistake. 

 

On the other hand, Dabb has not allowed this! He’s just piled mistake after mistake on Cas without reprieve. Maybe I’m missing something, but do you know of any occasions Dabb has allowed Cas a win? Or presented him as important outside of cheerleading the Winchester’s and talking about how much he cares for them and sees them as important to the world? 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

On the other hand, Dabb has not allowed this! He’s just piled mistake after mistake on Cas without reprieve. Maybe I’m missing something, but do you know of any occasions Dabb has allowed Cas a win? Or presented him as important outside of cheerleading the Winchester’s and talking about how much he cares for them and sees them as important to the world? 

You may have missed my comment that Cas got out of the Empty of his own accord. That's a win. He doesn't cheerlead the Winchesters. He's an ally and family member.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You may have missed my comment that Cas got out of the Empty of his own accord. That's a win. He doesn't cheerlead the Winchesters. He's an ally and family member.

Fair enough. I don’t see it as a win, but I can see why you would :) . 

 

And Dean is also family to Sam. That didn’t stop Dean fans (and Jensen) from complaining when they felt Dean was only there to play nursemaid and cheer Sam in 8B.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Fair enough. I don’t see it as a win, but I can see why you would :) . 

 

And Dean is also family to Sam. That didn’t stop Dean fans (and Jensen) from complaining when they felt Dean was only there to play nursemaid and cheer Sam in 8B.

It's a WIN FOR CAS himself to get out of the Empty by himself with no help from anyone else. Cas escaped his supposed final resting place without another person's help.

I don't see where Cas has played nursemaid nor cheerleader unless you mean his magical healing powers?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see where Cas has played nursemaid nor cheerleader unless you mean his magical healing powers?

I’m talking about how his great scenes have been just about him serving as the Winchester’s cheer section. He killed Billy not for himself but because they mean oh so much to the word (speaking of great job of undermining yet another fucking Cas action Yockey. Sorry Cas you didn’t succeed you just made her bigger and stronger than ever -hard core eye roll-) and then he gets tossed about and beaten just so he can proclaim his love for him before Crowley comes to his rescue. Dabb has made it very clear the only thing Cas is good for is cheerleading Sam and Dean. When he tries to do stuff independently it always goes to shit because of course he’s useless outside of cheerleading. He can’t even kill a foe by himself anymore. 

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just saying that I believe good things are coming for Cas. I didn't until yesterday. It might take a while to get there and I can 100% understand why you might not want to stay the course. I hope you do though.

I forgot to ask; what about last nights episode gave you hope that he’ll get a win?

[MysteryGuest]

I personally think they're attempting to give Castiel an actual role this season, other than just inept angel. While his return last night was dramatic for Dean in that Cas was his "win", it was also a dramatic moment for Cas. He is family and an integral part of Team Free Will.  Unless the writers totally fuck it up, he should have a pivotal role in Jack's future and wherever the story takes us with the AU and The Empty.  I wouldn't give up just yet.  I really do think things are about to get good.  And if the writers do screw up and give us more of the same crap we're used to, then we will all be bitching about Cas' fate right along with you.

Edited November 11, 2017 by MysteryGuest