“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

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Trial and Error, Dean did not give Sam his way, they both had a crack at killing that Hell Hound and Sam was successful, Dean wasn't. 

Of course after the set up of "Dean can`t hack it but Sam could", the point was pretty moot but Dean actually wanted to find another one to try again. Which is when Sam delivered his "let me take you to the light" speech. To which Dean quickly caved.

Which, right after Sam was officially on trial duty turned into "I believe this is my purifying hero`s quest, wait in the kitchen". 

Where they likened Dean to Samwise but only meant it in terms of cooking and butlering but not in terms of the actual heroics. I hate that speech in Trial and Error so much, less so on Sam`s end but mostly on the writers. In this very episode they had ridiculed the notion of Dean being a great hunter by failing. And then in the next few they ridiculed the "you are a genius at lore etc" stuff. Not to mention "I wanna live and you don`t" ultimately means thinking Dean couldn`t emotionally hack the trials and would just do them as a suicidal quitter. 

Yeah, what a character-affirming speech there, Thompson. Not. I hate that episode so much, the entire trial arc was so cringeworthy for Dean. The ice bath? Good god. 

Granted, Season 12.B proved to me there was even a lower low than the trials for Dean`s character. Other than 5.22, I had not thought that possible but gotta hand it to the show last Season to found a way to kill off the character even while he still was technically there.

That`s what makes me convinced they will find a way to make Season 13 even worse than that. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And then in the next few they ridiculed the "you are a genius at lore etc" stuff. Not to mention "I wanna live and you don`t" ultimately means thinking Dean couldn`t emotionally hack the trials and would just do them as a suicidal quitter. 

Not to mention Dean's suicide issues appeared out of nowhere.  After Purgatory Dean seems to realize that hunting was what he wanted.  Then they promptly dropped them the minute Sam's arm lit up.    It was just another thinly veiled, Sam's strong, Dean's weak moment. 

Then suddenly Sam's suicidal, but its okay for Sam to be that way and do the trials. 

I never thought Dean was saying he was suicidal.  I thought he was being practical.  He knew there was no way of coming out of God's obstacle intact that that whoever did it wasn't going to survive.  Since Dean figured he would go out on a hunt sooner or later he felt it should be him.  As far as Dean was aware Sam wanted out of hunting (again) and to live a normal life.  He was trying to make that possible.

Based on the way it played out, it came across more as Sam wanting the trials and manipulating Dean, since Sam didn't do anything to back up that speech.

Even worse than the bathroom scene, was the scene where they literally made Dean beg Sam to let him look after him, and actually feed him.  Then it was topped of with an even worse speech in Sacrifice. 

[Aeryn13]

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Then suddenly Sam's suicidal, but its okay for Sam to be that way and do the trials. 

Absolutely. When it was Dean and he was suddenly suicidal, it made him a loser who couldn`t hack it and who needed big, strong optimistic Sam to show him the light. When Sam got suicidal, he was a sympathetic martyr figure and his little valet still didn`t support him enough. Urgh.

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Even worse than the bathroom scene, was the scene where they literally made Dean beg Sam to let him look after him, and actually feed him. 

I know. Could he sink any lower than that? That was so pathetic. 

And even that wasn`t enough and we still got the "who are you gonna turn to when you decide you can`t trust me" speech. Jesus Christ, he was crawling in the mud before you. I`m not a self-assured person at all but even my ego would grow twenty sizes if someone prostrated themselves for me like that.  

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And even that wasn`t enough and we still got the "who are you gonna turn to when you decide you can`t trust me" speech. Jesus Christ, he was crawling in the mud before you. I`m not a self-assured person at all but even my ego would grow twenty sizes if someone prostrated themselves for me like that.  

The more Dean tried to support Sam, the more he saw it as babying.  Then in the end apparently Dean didn't pay enough attention to Sam.  I guess its why I can understand where Dean was coming from in season 9.  Sam basically demanded Dean put him first.

It seems like Dean is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. 

[Aeryn13]

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It seems like Dean is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. 

Depending on what the plot requires, yes. Just like in Season 5 it was all about how it was his fault for being a controlling jerk and he had to learn to step aside and let Sam be the glorious hero. Season 6 introduces the Soulless!Sam plot and Bobby is like "Sam is your responsibility, screw your feelings, stay with him and figure it out".

Which is it, show?

In Season 8.A he grew a backbone because Sam was so incredibly douchey about not looking and bam, it`s suddenly only about mean!Dean and the voice mail, Sam`s new hero quest and Dean has to be his begging servant. Which turns him into the pathetic version who makes that speech in Sacrifice. 

Yes, what he did in Season 9 was reprehensible but why did the show turn him into the pathetic version in 8.B in the first place, hm? That codependent guy was hardly gonna make an actual good choice. 

Now I`m guessing we`re in "step back and worship from behind" phase again with leader!general!Sam.    

[CluelessDrifter]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't think he always gets his way.  Wendigo, he wanted to stick around Stanford longer, nope.  Then, he wanted to ditch the job and look for dad.  Nope.  Dead in the water, ditto, nope.  Asylum, ditto, nope.  Scarecrow, ditto, they each did what they wanted to do, which in general is what normal adults would do.  Something Wicked, he didn't want to use Michael for bait, they ended up doing it.  Dead Man's Blood, he wanted to fight with his dad and Dean broke it up (I'm actually kidding on that one).  Everybody Loves a Clown, he wants Dean to open up, Dean doesn't.  Children Shouldn't Play with Dead things, he doesn't want to look into a case that he doesn't think exists, they do.  Crossroad Blues, he doesn't want Dean to summon the CRD, Dean does.  Folsom Prison blues, he doesn't want to go into prison to solve the case, they do anyway.  The Magnificent SEven, he wants to go to LA to try to break Dean's demon deal, Dean says no.  Recurring theme through the season.  A Very SPN Christmas, Sam doesn't want to celebrate Christmas, but he ends up doing it anyway.  DALDOm, SAm doesn't want to go dreamwalking in Bobby's head, they do it anyway.  Ghostfacers, Sam didn't want to hunt that haunted house, they did it anyway.  When the Levee Breaks, pretty sure it wasn't his idea to lock himself in the panic room. 

This is the second time I've started to respond to this, because my post inexplicably deleted itself mid-answer, so it won't most likely won't be as detailed as originally planned, and if this comes across as being somewhat short, it's that happening that has annoyed me, not you.

This is what I wrote originally, so I can have it here as a reference and respond to your post accurately:

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Going all the way back to season 1 and every season that follows, Sam has always gotten his way with Dean, with few notable exceptions, and when those happen, Sam harps on it until Dean gives into what he wants, just harps on it, or takes off and does whatever he wants.  To me, it's often been like that flashback with Sam and the Lucky Charms when they were kids.  Sam wants something.  Dean says no, and then ultimately gives into him, because he puts Sam's wants above his own and spoils him - IMO.

Wendigo - Sam doesn't want to stay at Stanford.  He says, "Maybe we shouldn't have left Stanford so soon," as in he's unsure of their decision to leave.  We then find out that they stayed around Stanford for a week before deciding that finding their Dad was what they needed to do if they wanted answers.  When they get to near where the coordinates John sent them are, Sam doesn't want to stop and ask questions to see what they're walking into out in the wilderness, and he doesn't want Hayley going, because he doesn't want to be saddled with babysitting her (that's her choice to make), but it isn't until they get to Blackwater Ridge and John isn't there, that Sam thinks that John isn't there.  The whole reason he was in a rush to get there was because until then, he thought he was going to find John, and you're right, as soon as he finds out John isn't there, he wants to force Haley and the others to go, leave Tommy, and continue on with the search for their Dad.  Except Hayley doesn't want to go without her brother, it's getting dark, which isn't the best time to be travel through the woods with a wendigo chasing you, and Sam can't get what he wants because of circumstances.  In the meantime, Dean tells him that they need to finish the job.  Sam says he wants to find their Dad, because all he can think about is finding Jessica's killer.  Dean tells him that they'll find their Dad, but the search could take a while and Sam needs to be patient.  It's not a no, it's a we're in this now, so we'll finish it, and then we'll do what you want, which is getting back to looking for their Dad.  Just because he doesn't immediately get what he wants, doesn't mean that Sam isn't going to get to resume the search.

Dead in the Water - Sam is upset the trail for their Dad is getting cold.  Dean asks what they're supposed to do about it.  Sam says, "I don't know.  Something.  Anything."  He wants to find his Dad.  That's great.  Dean does too.  Sam isn't going to get what he wants without a plan, and he doesn't have one at this particular point in time.  

Asylum - He has a plan.  Sick the Feds on his Dad.  Dean says John would be pissed if they did that. They get the text that lets them know John's alive.  Sam wants to find their Dad instead of doing the case.  Things still haven't really changed on being able to find John, and so Dean says they should do the case. This episode falls into the category I mentioned where Sam harps about something incessantly if he doesn't get his way.  

Scarecrow - This episode falls under the category I wrote about Sam taking off to do what he wants when he doesn't get his way.  Going off to do his own thing is something adults do, and Dean lets him do it.  Sam is the one who ultimately decides he wants to go back to Dean.

Something Wicked - You're right.  He doesn't want to use Michael as bait.  Funnily enough, this is the episode with the Lucky Charms though. :)

Everybody Loves a Clown - I've written before that just because someone else wants you to divulge your feelings about a tragedy doesn't mean that they're entitled to that. Having said that, Sam still harps on Dean about it throughout the episode, which is something I said he does when he doesn't get what he wants.

I could keep going, but I think I've explained my point . . . twice now even though it's only going to be recorded once, so I'll leave it there for now.

Edited August 9, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Everybody Loves a Clown - I've written before that just because someone else wants you to divulge your feelings about a tragedy doesn't mean that they're entitled to that.

I didn't say that he was entitled to that.  I didn't mean to imply that all or any of these things wer things that he should have gotten in his own way about.  Your original post said that Dean always gives into SAm.  And that simply isn't true. 

[CluelessDrifter]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 Your original post said that Dean always gives into SAm. 

. . . with a few notable exceptions. ; )

I was careful to write that, because I didn't want anyone getting hung up on the word 'always.'

Edited August 9, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I didn't say that he was entitled to that.  I didn't mean to imply that all or any of these things wer things that he should have gotten in his own way about.  Your original post said that Dean always gives into SAm.  And that simply isn't true. 

4 episodes later Dean did open up and talk about how he felt.  So it might not have been immediate but in the end, Sam did get what he wanted.

[catrox14]

Some kind of random thoughts but sort of in line with discusssions.

Sometimes I think the writing staff/showrunners don't remember why Dean did what he did in s2. It wasn't Dean being suicidal. It was a rash action driven by the Prime Directive and sudden overwhelming grief.  Dean sacrificed his soul because of how he was raised by John; because of the way John made him promise to Save Sam or Kill Sam and him feeling that he had failed in that mission because he neither saved Sam nor killed him and by trading his soul and life eventually, he could save Sam.

Back in the Point of No Return, Dean is making IMO a more or less logical decision to say yes to Michael because it goes right back to Save Sam or Kill Sam.  Dean didn't think he would be able to save Sam from saying yes to Lucifer so he would have to either kill him or Save him via Michael. IMO that was Dean's motivation, not because he wanted to die.

Quote

SAM I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you.

DEANSam...

SAM I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.

DEAN Sam, be smart.

SAM I AM smart, and so are you. You're not a grunt, Dean. You're a genius – when it comes to lore, to – you're the best damn hunter I have ever seen – better than me, better than dad. I believe in you, Dean. So, please – please believe in me, too..

What also bothered me in s8 and s5 were the IMO, manipulative speeches by Sam. I don't know if the intention was Sam being intentionally manipulative to keep Dean out of the trials for Dean's sake by laying a guilt trip on Dean about believing in Sam. Or if Sam used  it as a way to drive home his belief that Dean never believed him.  Both? I dunno.

Sometimes I think some writers (Dabb mostly) think Dean is clinically depressed with no hope and is looking to kill himself or has a death wish given that dichotomy in framing of essentially the same acts.  Sometimes I think it's just a crappy plot device designed to present Sam as the ever hopeful character even though he is essentially doing the same thing.  I don't know really know but it's pretty aggravating for this viewer.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I didn't say that he was entitled to that.  I didn't mean to imply that all or any of these things wer things that he should have gotten in his own way about.  Your original post said that Dean always gives into SAm.  And that simply isn't true. 

I went back to look at it and want to widen the scope to the conversation being had at the time as well, because I think that was lost by the focus on a small portion of one of my sentences.  At the time, there was discussion that some were looking forward to Sam being the leader of TFW, and that there were no complaints when the leader was Dean.  My original post was in response to that as in Sam has always had input and gotten his way with Dean, not that it was something new.  I still did put with exceptions in my post, because I knew people would pick on the 'always', and I did bring up that the way Sam deals with not getting his way based on how I saw it, because to me that indicates that Sam has much more control in their relationship than some believe.  I then elaborated more on my points on team dynamics in a post after the one you found.  I just wanted to clarify, because this is coming from a while ago.

Edited August 9, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

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SAM I AM smart, and so are you. You're not a grunt, Dean. You're a genius – when it comes to lore, to – you're the best damn hunter I have ever seen – better than me, better than dad. I believe in you, Dean. So, please – please believe in me, too..

Ah, thanks for the quote. I had forgotten that even that speech ended with "validation please". So no wonder the fancy words before feel so empty. Thompson probably couldn`t even keep a straight face writing those.   

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

My original post was in response to that as in Sam has always had input and gotten his way with Dean, not that it was something new.

Ah, OK.  WEll, yes he has always had input.  But, that's not the same as almost always getting your own way.  I don't really care who is in charge.  But, to me, it makes more sense if Dean is. And, yes, I also do feel like someone has to be in charge, not bossy and overbearing, but in charge.  If you're both perfectly equal, who's the tie breaker?

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Ah, thanks for the quote. I had forgotten that even that speech ended with "validation please". So no wonder the fancy words before feel so empty. Thompson probably couldn`t even keep a straight face writing those.   

FWIW, Dabb wrote Trial and Error, not Robbie Thompson.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Sam didn't notice things were off until the end of Blade Runners, 5 episodes after Dean got the Mark and coinciding with when Magnus put the First Blade in Dean's hand.

Now that I look back on it, you are right. I had originally thought that Sam had questioned Dean taking the mark from the very beginning (which is why I said that), when he noticed it in "Sharp Teeth," but I remembered incorrectly. * But instead of Sam saying something like "Why would you do that?" (which is what I thought I remembered), Sam only said "What does it even mean? How did that even happen?" It was actually Crowley and Dean working with Crowley that Sam questioned *** ... and rightfully so from Sam's perspective, because he hates Crowley (and with good reason). Now granted things went kablooey after that, because they realized Garth had escaped, so Sam didn't get to question further. However, I should've known, because the second half of season 9 was all about sympathizing with Dean's perspective and somewhat justifying his choices - in my opinion - so I should have known that the writers wouldn't have Sam do anything as sympathetic or observant as question the mark of Cain. That wasn't the goal of the second half of the season. For how unsympathetically and unobservant Sam was painted during that time - except for when Sam tells Dean that he is right in "Mother's Little Helper" - Sam could've been replaced by one of Cinderella's evil step sisters to the same effect in the narrative (again in my opinion.) ...Until the end when Sam "sees the light" and realizes the error of his ways and how much of a "friend" Gadreel truly is (::barf::) and how wrong he was to be mad at Dean and now it's all too late. Take that Sam. (Did I mention that I hate the second half of season 9?)

So you were correct, but ironically that just leads more evidence to my assertion in my post above that the brothers are treated differently by the narrative when it comes to saving one another. Because from what I could see, the second half of season 9 was about repainting the Gadreel situation into something sympathetic and positive and making Sam look badly for not being forgiving and understanding about what Dean did (which was usually a trait Sam was given before Carver came along)... rather than trying to show both sides as legitimate and with some sympathy - which I would have been all for. I didn't want Dean raked over the coals, at all (because as I said, I actually sympathized with Dean's original choice), but maybe just a little sympathy for Sam in the writing might have been nice.  But for me, there was almost no attempt at all to paint Sam sympathetically. Even I thought Sam was being a jerk and disliked him, and he's supposed to be my favorite.

Things were shown from Dean's point of view, even when some things left me saying "huh?" Thinking back to "Sharp Teeth" for example, there was that weird scene where Dean casually tells/orders Sam to clean up the werewolf corpse while he goes to investigate. ***** Wait, what? Isn't Dean supposed to be trying to make amends for what happened with Gadreel a couple of episodes ago? Dean's not even asking Sam? How could that kind of disconnect even happen unless the writers didn't see what Dean did with Gadreel as anything he should be really sorry for?

I really, really didn't understand the message of the second half of season 9.

* I have only seen that entire episode once, because did I mention that I hate the second half of season 9? ; )

*** I knew that Sam had questioned something.

***** Then again, I don't think that Adam Glass likes Sam all that much anyway, since few if any of his episodes are Sam positive. "Sharp Teeth" is also the episode with that fairly nasty Garth insult concerning Sam... couched in a country bumpkin delivery of course.

[Aeryn13]

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FWIW, Dabb wrote Trial and Error, not Robbie Thompson.

Oh, for some reason I had it in my head that it was Thompson. But, figures. No good thing for Dean can come from Dabb. We saw that very clearly last Season.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

No good thing for Dean can come from Dabb. We saw that very clearly last Season.  

I hope you are not speaking for all of us with that "we".  Because I do not agree.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I hope you are not speaking for all of us with that "we".  Because I do not agree.

I'm pretty sure she meant that towards me, as in we, meaning she and I, who have both been annoyed with how Dean was written last season. I don't think she was speaking in a "general we" way.

Edited August 9, 2017 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm pretty sure she meant that towards me, as in we, meaning she and I, who have both been annoyed with how Dean was written last season. I don't think she was speaking in a "general we" way.

That's how I took it as well since it was a direct response to you.

[Aeryn13]

Yup, I was refering to catrox and I. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yup, I was refering to catrox and I. 

You can count me in that we, too. Even Regarding Dean, while elevated by Jensen's performance*, was, IMO, still full of disdain for the character**, and the blame for that lies solely at the feet of the showrunner(s). Season 12 for me could be subtitled Disregarding Dean. They ignored his history with being the Michael sword, with Hellhounds, even with Roy and Walt, not to mention anything he suffered as result of Mary's deal and subsequent death, except as it related to how he failed Sam. So yeah, Dabb did no favours for Dean. And now he's going to have Dean Winchester shrug his shoulders over his mother disappearing before his eyes? Screw you, Dabb.

*#understatement

** chock full of Dean's a manwhore, Dean's a killer, Dean's not all that bright tropes that would have bugged me in S1. Twelve seasons in, they are just unacceptable.

Edited August 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
missed a word

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can count me in that we, too. Even Regarding Dean, while elevated by Jensen's performance*, was, IMO, still full of disdain for the character**, and the blame for that lies solely at the feet of the showrunner(s). Season 12 for me could be subtitled Disregarding Dean. They ignored his history with being the Michael sword, with Hellhounds, even with Roy and Walt, not to mention anything he suffered as result of Mary's deal and subsequent death, except as it related to how he failed Sam. So yeah, Dabb did no favours for Dean. And now he's going to have Dean Winchester shrug his shoulders over his mother disappearing before his eyes? Screw you, Dabb.

*#understatement

** chock full of Dean's a manwhore, Dean's a killer, Dean's not all that bright tropes that would have bugged me in S1. Twelve seasons in, they are just unacceptable.

Add me in too.  Dabb has no interest in Dean.

The only episode I felt honored Dean's character was Asa Fox.   He was smart, proactive, and a leader.  We even had someone fan boy over Dean for a change. 

Yockey seems the only hallways Dean friendly writer on staff. 

Although, I suspect the only reason Dean got the kill in the Witch Twin ep was because Jared probably had extra time off for his daughters's birth.

[Res]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Add me in too.  Dabb has no interest in Dean.

The only episode I felt honored Dean's character was Asa Fox.   He was smart, proactive, and a leader.  We even had someone fan boy over Dean for a change. 

Yockey seems the only hallways Dean friendly writer on staff. 

Although, I suspect the only reason Dean got the kill in the Witch Twin ep was because Jared probably had extra time off for his daughters's birth.

You can add me in as well. I'm so disgusted with how Dean was treated that I'm seriously thinking about not watching anymore. If I didn't love Dean and Jensen so much, I would have quit watching after episode 10.3. The really hasn't been a good episode since Reichenbach IMO.

[Pondlass1]

Add me in too! 

The scene where Dean burst through the door (thanks to Billie) and hoarsely demanded 'Where's my brother?" all man on a mission and determined and wild & crazy sexy and let's kill some fucking demons ...  I remember being startled and thinking 'oh my, you're back, where have you been?'

But then next episode he was all unsure and whispering 'I think I smell smoke' at Vic Whatevers stupid concert and I knew Dean was gone again.

Dabb doesn't groove on Dean like the rest of us. It's a flipping crime 

[ster1]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

Dabb doesn't groove on Dean like the rest of us. It's a flipping crime 

 

I just don't get it. Dabb wrote some really great Dean episodes in the past. Sure, like with all the writers, there were some occasional missteps but I didn't walk away from this episodes thinking, "WTH?".... until season 11 rolled around. Then, suddenly, Dean was background noise in his episodes and it was clear Dabb's focus was on Sam's heroic exploits . (The only exception was "Alpha", which I suspect only came about because Carver wrote Dabb into a corner by stressing the Dean-Amara bond. But I noticed that Dean saving the world was then quickly forgotten once season 12 rolled around and God was given the credit.)

And for this Dean fan, last season was a complete disaster for his character. Now not only was Dean again relegated to background noise, he wasn't even particularly badass or a leader or bonding with guest stars or any of the other qualities that used to define him on the show. Nope, all Dean was apparently good for was angsting and eating diner food (when he wasn't hitting on waitresses.)  It's just about killed my love for the show. I'm trying to hang in there but with each new S13 spoiler, it just gets harder and harder. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, ster1 said:

I just don't get it. Dabb wrote some really great Dean episodes in the past. Sure, like with all the writers, there were some occasional missteps but I didn't walk away from this episodes thinking, "WTH?".... until season 11 rolled around.

I tend to think some of the stronger Dean episodes in the past may have been a product of Daniel Loflin, his writing partner, who last wrote in s8.

I think his best solo Dean episodes were Devil May Care, Reichenbach, Inside Man, The Prisoner.

Quote

4.06 Yellow Fever with Daniel Loflin

4.13 After School Special with Daniel Loflin

4.19 Jump the Shark with Daniel Loflin

5.06 I Believe the Children Are Our Future with Daniel Loflin

5.11 Sam, Interrupted with Daniel Loflin

5.16 Dark Side of the Moon with Daniel Loflin

5.19 Hammer of the Gods with Daniel Loflin

6.04 Weekend at Bobby's with Daniel Loflin

6.07 Family Matters with Daniel Loflin

6.13 Unforgiven with Daniel Loflin

6.18 Frontierland with Daniel Loflin and Jackson Stewart (story)

7.03 The Girl Next Door with Daniel Loflin

7.08 Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! with Daniel Loflin

7.14 Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie with Daniel Loflin

7.22 There Will Be Blood with Daniel Loflin

8.02 What's Up, Tiger Mommy? with Daniel Loflin

8.08 Hunteri Heroici

8.14 Trial and Error

8.22 Clip Show

9.02 Devil May Care

9.10 Road Trip

9.20 Bloodlines

9.22 Stairway to Heaven

10.02 Reichenbach

10.09 The Things We Left Behind

10.17 Inside Man

10.22 The Prisoner

11.02 Form and Void

11.10 The Devil in the Details

11.15 Beyond the Mat with John Bring

11.17 Red Meat with Robert Berens

11.23 Alpha and Omega

12.01 Keep Calm and Carry On

[AwesomO4000]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I tend to think some of the stronger Dean episodes in the past may have been a product of Daniel Loflin, his writing partner, who last wrote in s8.

Maybe they kept each other in check?

Because Daniel Loflin's main solo episode was "Citizen Fang," one of the worst - if not the worst - episode for Sam of the entire series for me. Where I didn't even recognize Sam's behavior there. I hate that episode so, so much.

His other solo episode "Remember the Titans" I don't remember much about, because it sort of bored me from what I do remember.

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think his best solo Dean episodes were Devil May Care, Reichenbach, Inside Man, The Prisoner.

I also liked "Hunter Heroici" and "Alpha and Omega" for Dean (and in general).

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because Daniel Loflin's main solo episode was "Citizen Fang," one of the worst - if not the worst - episode for Sam of the entire series for me. Where I didn't even recognize Sam's behavior there. I hate that episode so, so much.

His other solo episode "Remember the Titans" I don't remember much about, because it sort of bored me from what I do remember.

I didn't realize he had any solo episodes. But yeah maybe you're correct that the kept each other in check

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, ster1 said:

Nope, all Dean was apparently good for was angsting and eating diner food (when he wasn't hitting on waitresses.)  It's just about killed my love for the show. I'm trying to hang in there but with each new S13 spoiler, it just gets harder and harder. 

I hear you. I'm dreading the new season-or at least the first half-and for the first time ever even my great love for The Ackles and his acting doesn't feel like it's enough to overcome the gloom that Comic Con generated in me concerning the show and where it's taking Dean-and this mainly because it just sounds like more of the same that we got for the character in S12-which ruins my whole day now when I think too long on it.

I'm not a grumpy person in general. Not in the least(according to my friends and family, anyway  ;-) )-but last season I feel like this show turned me into one the day after most of the episodes aired. So I'm starting to feel that maybe the show has become something that's just not for me any longer mainly because of that. IDK. I think what's saddest and hardest for me is that in the past when it got this bad, I used to think that the tide would have to turn and they'd have to write something decent/better for Dean, but it just doesn't feel that way at all to me now.  Not with Dabb still in charge and not after the depths that the writing sunk to in S11 and 12.

[shang yiet]

Quote

Death would never be complimentary to humanity and certainly not the Winchesters, either one.   I can't think of one time wherein Death ever said anything nice to Dean, who he supposedly likes and he barely tolerates. He's called them annoying protozoa, thinks they are insignificant and an affront to the universe and cause chaos.  He would never consider it an honor to reap either Winchester and if he said it to Dean I would throw the bullshit flag.

Maybe you would but I bet some fans would take it as a nice compliment for Dean. There would have been no outrage that he dared to say something nice to Dean.

I always thought Death had a sort of grudging respect for both Winchesters. Sure, face to face, he sneers and acts superior that but for all that, he always had no problem whatsoever giving Dean the time of day, talking to him, helping him, hearing him out, etc.

Edited August 10, 2017 by shang yiet

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Even Regarding Dean, while elevated by Jensen's performance*, was, IMO, still full of disdain for the character**

I did like the episode and have to admit I was pleasantly surprised, having expected another Yellow Fever. Which IMO really fits the disdainful bill.

Regarding Dean could have been a more polished episode. The concept is a juicy one (and one usually fanfic wrings some epic angst out of) yet the pay-off could have been better.

However what I liked was the reversal of certain tropes that have been introduced in recent years, namely that "Dean/Jensen is now old and unattractive and strikes out with women all the time" bullshit. Seriously, this is a CW show, namely the network of mostly young, beautiful people. But it`s not always teenagers, most shows have some more mature characters. SPN pretends to be in limbo by having the characters technically age but not canonically placing them as the parental units to teenagers  (well.... till now).

And still, all of those shows never, ever, ever tried to give me any bullshit about the hot people on their shows not being hot. Up to and including the parental units. Or the "immortal" characters that supposedly never age. I`m not blind, I know full well that Ian Somerhalder`s Damon or Daniel Gillies` Elijah are roughly in the same age range as J2 and that they aged over the course of the shows. I also know they are still considered studs and at no point in the history of ever did their shows try to bullshit me about that. So fuck off, SPN writers with the "haha, Dean is so old and unattractive now". I`ve said penis envy before and I`ll say it again. I`ve seen interviews, I know what everyone looks like. Nuff said.

So, in Regarding Dean, I was pleasantly surprised that Dean was portrayed as a desirable specimen. The hook-up relative to the case wasn`t the best combo but I could overlook that in the situation.

They didn`t make the character into a huge slapstick joke in the episode which I also greatly appreciated. He even got to be competent. It was the last time that happened until the end of the Season. 

I think Glynn is a Dean-friendly writer. She might have gotten a talking to after Regarding Dean because her next episode was a mixed bag. But even that had a better portrayal of the character than most writers combined.

Now I do agree about Steve Yockey being a good one, too.

Meanwhile Berens` episodes were almost hateful. Dabb was as disastrous as in Season 11. The Nepotism Duo blackslid into awfulness. And that other newbie was atrociously bad. He was like a mini-Dabb. I hated everything about each of his episodes.     

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Maybe you would but I bet some fans would take it as a nice compliment for Dean. There would have been no outrage that he dared to say something nice to Dean.

I always thought Death had a sort of grudging respect for both Winchesters. Sure, face to face, he sneers and acts superior that but for all that, he always had no problem whatsoever giving Dean the time of day, talking to him, helping him, hearing him out, etc.

 

I was responding to the original comment that "nobody would be complaining" which isn't the case even if I'm the only one, which I don't think is the case either. Sure there are probably a few, but that's not "nobody complaining" either. If Dean and Sam's roles were flipped, with Dean in the cabin with Death and written the same way, featuring a trip through Dean's comascape, IMO, there would have been more complaints from, and more eyeballs falling out of the heads of, Dean fans than not. YMMV.

I think it's a bit generous to say that Death had even grudging respect for them, not even Dean, and even allowing for  grudging respect that does not become an "honor to reap".

Death was always about the natural order of the universe and he never veered from it right up to his death at Dean's hands.   It was never about Death's personal relationship with Dean or Sam. He may have liked Dean on some level but Death brokered deals with Dean because there was always a bigger thing in play that mattered to Death, like the universe not being destroyed, that Dean was either fucking with and/or Death needed him to figure out. To wit:

In s5, Dean's mission was to kill Death with his own scythe in order to get his ring. Death preempted that by burning the scythe out of Dean's hand.  Death then proceeded to explain that he would give Dean his ring as long as Dean promised to make sure that Sam jumped into the pit which would also release Death from Lucifer's binding.  Dean agreed which was a lie. And even though Dean eventually relented, the lie was sincere when he said it to Death's face.

In s6, Dean killed himself to ask Death to pull both Sam and Adam's (heh Samuel Adams) souls from Hell. Death refused and made Dean pick one or the other so he chose Sam.  Death made Dean wear his ring for a day to teach him a lesson about fucking with the natural order before he would complete the deal.  And even then, Death only agreed to put Sam's soul back because he wanted Dean to keep digging around about the souls.

In s7, Dean bound Death and ordered him kill CrazyGod!Cas. Death agreed to it only cause he had the Leviathan inside him which was threatening the universe. That stunt earned Dean a threat on his life when Death said, "Try to bind me again and you'll die before you start". 

In s10, Dean summoned Death to kill him. Instead Death brokered another deal with Dean to send him into outer space to keep the Darkness locked away, but before he would do that he  ordered Dean to kill Sam. IMO if Death respected or liked Dean he would never have asked him to kill Sam. I do think Death has some liking of Dean and a bit of grudging tolerance of the annoying protozoa that are the Winchesters rather than grudging respect. But then Dean killed Death so.......

The odd thing about Death ordering Sam's death is that he sidebar'd that Sam still owed him which I thought was for not going with him in s9 but that doesn't really work because all that supposedly took place in Sam's head. So why Death would be referring to that is puzzling other than it being a bit of a retcon for Sam's benefit. If it wasn't a retcon for s9, then maybe Death meant that Sam owed him for Dean's original death in s1 which Sam subverted and since he couldn't kill Dean because of the Darkness, he'll take Sam instead. I dunno. It's weird.

Anyway, I feel fairly confident if Death told Dean to his face "I consider it an honor to reap the likes of Dean Winchester", Dean would have laughed in his face, challenged him on that point, side-eyed him hard, and questioned whether that was really him. Dean would likely say something like "There is no honor in you taking me. You're here to keep the natural order. I get it. Don't blow smoke up my ass." He and Death would argue about it some more. Once Dean was on the verge of a decision that it was time to go, he would say "Here's the deal.  I don't go unless you promise me that you won't let Sam or anyone else try to bring me back." Death nods. " Alright, let's get this show on the road." I don't think Dean's comabrain, nor in Dean's relationship with Death that would lead him to think Death would say that to him or about him, nor that Dean would need any reassurance from Death that would come from the words "I find it an honor" .

Maybe it works for the character of Sam in that situation in that maybe Sam needed some reassurance that he wasn't bad if Death thought it was an "honor" to reap him. Maybe he needed Death's validation or something.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

double post. Sorry I just noticed it. Weird

Edited August 11, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was responding to the original comment that "nobody would be complaining" which isn't the case even if I'm the only one, which I don't think is the case either. Sure there are probably a few, but that's not "nobody complaining" either. If Dean and Sam's roles were flipped, with Dean in the cabin with Death and written the same way, featuring a trip through Dean's comascape, IMO, there would have been more complaints from, and more eyeballs falling out of the heads of, Dean fans heads than not. YMMV.

I think it's a bit generous to say that Death had even grudging respect for them, not even Dean, and even allowing for  grudging respect that does not become an "honor to reap".

I don't think it was Death in the first place.  I think it was SAm's subconscious telling him whatever he needed to hear to make it OK for him to "leave."

But, for the sake of argument, I'll concede that it was actually Death.  I agree that I don't think Death has a grudging respect for them.  However, what Death does know about the Winchesters is that they don't STAY dead.  And, yes, Death is all about the natural order and that irks him, to state it mildly.  So, I can see how he might want to personally reap Sam in order to make sure that it takes.  In, In My Tim eof Dying, Tessa told Dean that she couldn't take him against his will.  Assuming Death works under the same rules, he might have just been telling Sam what he needed to hear so that he would agree to go someplace that he could not come back from. Which we now know is the Big Empty.  Which apparently Billie doesn't care if she has permission, or whatever, but maybe with the death of Death (that was weird to type), the rules don't apply anymore.

So, I think I'm actually pretty much agreeing with you.  Other than the fact that i'm not convinced it actually happened:)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

that they don't STAY dead.  And, yes, Death is all about the natural order and that irks him, to state it mildly.  So, I can see how he might want to personally reap Sam in order to make sure that it takes. 

I agree with that. What I can't see is Death fawning over either one. Supposing for the sake of argument that it was actual!Death (which I don't think it was either) then maybe that was a tactic to get Sam to yes, which still doesn't say a lot for Sam either way. It seems to be saying that actual!Death thinks Sam thinks so little or so much of himself that he needed reassurance or ego stroking to make sure he said yes with "It's an honor".  The rest of it I can buy but that line.  Good grief. Ridiculous. LOL

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I agree that I don't think Death has a grudging respect for them.  However, what Death does know about the Winchesters is that they don't STAY dead.  And, yes, Death is all about the natural order and that irks him, to state it mildly. 

I could agree with this, except When Dean tells Sam its not his time, Death tells Sam its up to him.  No way Death gives Sam that option.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, I think I'm actually pretty much agreeing with you.  Other than the fact that i'm not convinced it actually happened:)

I don't think it really happened either, which I've said before. Like I said in my post, the only thing that makes me question my disbelief was if that was actual!Death in Brother's Keeper then that does essentially retcon what happened in Sam's comabrain unless he wasn't talking about that occasion, when he told Sam he owed him. 

[Wayward Son]

I've always thought it was Death for the simple fact the show never cares to explain where his actual reaper was if it wasn't Death. I mean the other two near death experiences we know of involved reapers. Dean was confronted by Tessa while he was dying during In My Time of Dying and Bobby was confronted by an unnamed reaper when he died during Death's Door. If Death wasn't real then where the hell was Sam's actual reaper?

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I could agree with this, except When Dean tells Sam its not his time, Death tells Sam its up to him.  No way Death gives Sam that option.

But, I think he has to.  I think it's in the rules.  Like I said before, in In My Time of Dying, Tessa said she couldn't make Dean go with her.  I know Death is more powerful, but it doesn't necessarily mean he has to follow the rules.  But, I also said I don't really think it was him, so whatever.

 

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

don't think it really happened either, which I've said before. Like I said in my post, the only thing that makes me question my disbelief was if that was actual!Death in Brother's Keeper then that does essentially retcon what happened in Sam's comabrain unless he wasn't talking about that occasion, when he told Sam he owed him. 

Sam was supposed to die and he didn't.  Death doesn't necessarily have to be physically present to know about, and consider that getting ditched.

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I've always thought it was Death for the simple fact the show never cares to explain where his actual reaper was if it wasn't Death. I mean the other two near death experiences we know of involved reapers. Dean was confronted by Tessa while he was dying during In My Time of Dying and Bobby was confronted by an unnamed reaper when he died during Death's Door. If Death wasn't real then where the hell was Sam's actual reaper?

That was before they started killing them off right and left.  They probably have a shortage. 

[catrox14]

My answe

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I've always thought it was Death for the simple fact the show never cares to explain where his actual reaper was if it wasn't Death. I mean the other two near death experiences we know of involved reapers. Dean was confronted by Tessa while he was dying during In My Time of Dying and Bobby was confronted by an unnamed reaper when he died during Death's Door. If Death wasn't real then where the hell was Sam's actual reaper?

It was not there because it wasn't really Sam's time to die, which was the entire battle in Sam's comascape, and that Sam somehow knew this. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I think he has to.  I think it's in the rules.  Like I said before, in In My Time of Dying, Tessa said she couldn't make Dean go with her.  I know Death is more powerful, but it doesn't necessarily mean he has to follow the rules.  But, I also said I don't really think it was him, so whatever.

No, she couldn't make him go with her, but she made it clear he wasn't getting back in his body.  Dean's choice was to either go or become a ghost, not to live or die. 

It came across that Death was telling Sam that life or death was his choice.  Not heaven/hell or ghost status.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My answe

It was not there because it wasn't really Sam's time to die, which was the entire battle in Sam's comascape, and that Sam somehow knew this. 

Pushing aside my feelings about the whole possession because I don't want to get into a rant ;) . If Sam wasn't really in danger of dying then doesn't that mean Dean allowing Gadreel to possess him was truly pointless? 

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Pushing aside my feelings about the whole possession because I don't want to get into a rant ;) . If Sam wasn't really in danger of dying then doesn't that mean Dean allowing Gadreel to possess him was truly pointless? 

Oh, I had never thought of that.  Maybe he wasn't really dying, and Dean let some psycho possess him for no reason.  That would be really interesting.  But, I doubt that's the case, because surely it would have come out by now.  When GadZeke was taunting Dean in Metafiction, he would have said, "by the way you let me possess him for no reason.  Sam was perfectly fine."  That probably would have gotten him the fatal stab he wanted.

I really think reapers being angels is stupid, but it is cannon.  So, since this happened so soon after the fall (where apparently the reapers didnt' fall because they all seem to be getting around perfectly fine) then maybe they were regrouping.  Or, they knew that Cas was responsible and thus the Winchesters probably involved somehow and they didn't feel like reaping him?  Or, they were just super-busy. Do angels get reaped when they die? I honesty don't know, this show has some serious messed up mythology, IMO, but if so, yeah, busy.

[Aeryn13]

I think it was always supposed to be actual Death in the dreamscape. And just like a fanfic writer who wants to pump up their pet character by writing they are the most precious, most beautiful purple-haired goddess who can do no wrong don`t think about how that might come across in reading, Carver? didn`t think twice about how it would look that someone as powerful as Death who had been introduced as someone who looked upon humans, all humans, as annoying albeit sometimes amusing protozoa, comes to Sam and makes noises like "I`m so honored to be in your presence, may I get an autograph?"

It`s not even uncommon in TV writing. I remember in another show when they wanted to introduce a guest character as super hacker, they had awkward expositionary dialogue about how she held the high score in every single multiplayer online game there is. Because that could realistically happen. 

Same happened on SPN with Charlie and Thompson pimping her beyond anything reasonable. She was the only person special enough that even the Leviathans couldn`t / wouldn`t clone her. She won the war in an entire different dimension single-handedly. That wasn`t implied, that was said. 

That is done because apparently TV writers think audiences are very stupid and to really build a character up, they have to tell the audience they are 9 feet tall, the answer to every prayer and the son/daughter of God. 

This is how the scene was. Instead of having this scene Carver? (I think it was Carver) could have just flash neon writing across the screen, detailing how Sam is just the awesomest person in the history of the universe. Probably two other writers had to hold Thompson back in the background from screaming "but Charlie..." 

Dabb is the same way with Sam.

My annoyance comes in when that pimping comes at the expense of Dean. Because by Death never doing the same for him or saying the same to him, it creates the notion that Sam is just so much better and more important and whatnot in every which way than Dean.

If you had two co-showrunners or even head writers and each one favored a respective brother, then that pimping would still continue but it would probably even out. For every "Sam rises from his Death bed and kills 5 werewolves before he saves his useless, pathetic brother" episode we would have one equally outrageous for Dean. And nope, Regarding Dean doesn`t count. I`m talking about a starkly visual equally outrageous portrayal.

And while we may have gotten Sam-kills-a-Prince-of-Hell probably not with the Michael lance. Or Dean would have gotten the Alpha Vamp. Or his own hellhound finally - were was the freaking quest for balance there between the writers?

But there is noone like that for Dean among the stuff. Maybe Yockey or Glynn would but they are not in a power position. And as long as that happens, the show will always invite vs and zero sum more than any fansite ever could. 

Alternatively, if it was a better written show, they could do away with the uber-propping altogether. Because using a previously cool character like Death to basically get on his knees for Sam certainly didn`t make me think Sam was just so cool, I should worship him like Death and the writer of that episode. Hearing how Charlie single-handedly saved a dimension didn`t make her cool, it made her annoying.   

[catrox14]

IMO, if Death there to reap Sam, he had two choices. Let Sam stay which means Sam becomes a vengeful spirit which I doubt Death would permit, because a vengeful Winchester spirit is probably worse than a human alive Winchester.  OR Death could have just taken Sam when Sam essentially agreed to go before Gadreel showed up posing as Dean. AFAIK, Death knows the angels so I don't see how Gadreel could have fooled Death nor do I think Death would have let him take Sam knowing who his is. 

Quote

EAN

You understand that we're not really in this car right now. We are in your head, and you're in a coma and are dying
SAMHow do you know that?
DEAN
Because I'm you and you're you. All of this is you. We're in your head!
SAM
You're serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die.
DEAN
And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man.
SAM
Okay. All right, what's the plan?

DEAN
I'm working on it.
SAM
What does that mean? I'm kind of dying here, apparently.

DEAN
It means I'm working on it, all right?
SAM
The thing is, if I am dying – and I believe you. I do. But if you're you but you're really me and you're the part of me that wants to fight to live...
DEAN
Yes. I have no idea what you just said, but continue.
SAM
But if you don't have any idea how I'm supposed to fight, then am I supposed to be fighting at all?

DEAN
Are you serious?
BOBBY
Hell, yes, he's serious.

Coma!Dean was the part of both coma!Sam and Sam that wanted to live. Coma!Sam is looking to coma!Dean for a plan to keep him alive which IMO was Sam believing, hoping, and wanting Dean to find a way to save him, because Dean always has, good ways or no.  It was not reasonable IMO for coma!Sam to decide that just because coma!Dean didn't have a plan in that moment, that it was really his time to die. What happens when coma!Dean does have that plan, will coma!Sam say no, no matter what? 

Coma!Sam could have still said no, he had the chance, but IMO coma!Sam did not go with coma!Death because Sam did not really think it was his time to die. IMO, if Sam really thought it was his time to go, there was nothing that Dean or coma!Dean or Dean!Gadreel could have said or done to keep him there, especially if Death was there to take him. IMO, not even the ridiculous line of  "There ain't no me if there ain't no you" would do it, unless Sam actually believes in his heart that Dean cannot live without him, which is a whole other long ass conversation, which is not the impression I got at all about it.  IMO, Sam wanted to stay so he did.

 

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Pushing aside my feelings about the whole possession because I don't want to get into a rant ;) . If Sam wasn't really in danger of dying then doesn't that mean Dean allowing Gadreel to possess him was truly pointless? 

MO, it's not clear how close to death Sam really was. Dean was told by the doctor that it was all in God's hands and that it could basically go either way. That didn't tell Dean how close to death that meant but IMO Dean took it to me, thisclose, like imminent, hence why he was praying and risked trusting other angels.

Maybe Sam was closer to life than death but Dean wouldn't have known that because he was out in the hallway getting nearly beaten to death by the angels who were trying to get Castiel's whereabouts and threatening to kill Sam if Dean didn't give up Castiel (which he did not!).  Gadreel was the only one in the room with Sam during Dean's battle. He needed a vessel to save himself and hide from the other angels who had it out for him as much as they did Castiel, if for a different reason. He could have easily been the one that made all the alarms go off which terrified Dean so he trusted "Ezekiel" and made a rash decision and terribly consequential decision.  IMO, the only actual entity that ever was in Sam's coma brain beside Sam was Gadreel.

Edited August 10, 2017 by catrox14
for clarity

[ahrtee]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

No, she couldn't make him go with her, but she made it clear he wasn't getting back in his body.  Dean's choice was to either go or become a ghost, not to live or die. 

It came across that Death was telling Sam that life or death was his choice.  Not heaven/hell or ghost status.

I could be wrong (or it could have been retconned to be completely opposite) but it seemed to me that, back when Death was introduced, he was the (only?) one who could kill/decide who would live and who would die (thus, he so-casually brushed off the guy who bumped him in the street during his intro).  In Appointment in Samarra, when Dean asked Tessa who he was supposed to reap, she said she had a list, which she refused to show him.  So I think in the original plan, Death made the decisions and gave the reapers a list of who they were to pick up.  They weren't allowed to kill anyone themselves, and they couldn't force anyone to go with them, so if they chose to stay behind and become an angry spirit, they couldn't stop that.  Even the minister's wife in Faith couldn't just have the reaper kill anyone:  he was just substituting another name for the one already on the list (I wonder if that messed up the natural order, too?)  

(Just out of curiosity, if Death is the only one who can kill/make the list, who was in charge while he was locked up since the time of Noah?  And who did the actual killing?  Did he (or someone) have to actually touch the victim (like Dean did), and did they need his ring to do it?)  I'm just going to assume that either there's someone else in charge or acting as proxy, or Death can manage things from a different dimension--whether locked away or sent to another dimension instead of dying (no, I don't think Dean actually killed him.)  I don't think it was Billie, because she said that she couldn't kill anyone, just reap them when already dead (though that brings up the question if she actually killed them in First Blood?)

Anyway, it seems to me that Death is the only one who can choose whether someone lives or dies (or can offer them the choice, if he wants.) Personally, I think it was Coma!Death with Sam and not the real one, just because of the way he was dealing with him (he sounded a lot like hallucination!Mary in When the Levee Breaks, telling him exactly what he wanted to hear in order to do what he wanted to do in the first place, without feeling guilty.)  That's not necessarily "pimping" Sam, just telling him what he needed to hear:  that he'd done enough, that the big father-figure was proud of him, that it was time to rest.   The real Death was a lot snarkier and angrier at both of them for messing with the natural order.  I also think he had more of a connection with Dean than Sam (he had numerous chances to smite him--or just brush him aside as a pesty insect--but he agreed to fetch Sam's soul, make another eclipse to send the Leviathan back to Purgatory and told Dean to "keep digging" about the souls. Please note:  THIS IS NOT AN INSULT TO SAM, just that he didn't have as many dealings with him and I think he was sort of impressed by Dean's snarkiness in the face of Death.  For those who insist on equal treatment of the brothers, Famine was pretty much drooling over Sam, War was much more interested in him than Dean, and Pestilence IMO disliked them both.)  To me, that's why Death seemingly admiring Sam so much rang false to me, and more like what Sam would *like* to hear.  JMO, of course.

Edited August 10, 2017 by ahrtee
fixed typo

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I could be wrong (or it could have been retconned to be completely opposite) but it seemed to me that, back when Death was introduced, he was the (only?) one who could kill/decide who would live and who would die (thus, he so-casually brushed off the guy who bumped him in the street during his intro).  

Just curious - are you saying that the guy who bumped into Death died because Death brushed off his sleeve and by doing so choose to kill him?  I always thought he died just because he'd touched Death.  Which is why when Death gave Dean his ring, Dean was very careful not to touch Death, and vice versa.  So Death brushing off his sleeve was just for effect, I guess.  But it's interesting to consider the possibility that Death chose to kill him.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just curious - are you saying that the guy who bumped into Death died because Death brushed off his sleeve and by doing so choose to kill him?  I always thought he died just because he'd touched Death.  Which is why when Death gave Dean his ring, Dean was very careful not to touch Death, and vice versa.  So Death brushing off his sleeve was just for effect, I guess.  But it's interesting to consider the possibility that Death chose to kill him.

That's what it seemed like to me--at least, the brushing off of his sleeve was the motion of squashing an unimportant insect.  That goes along with what Death told Dean about humans being so insignificant (was is, "how would you feel if a bacterium sat at your table and got snarky?")  It seemed very deliberate to me, but I can see what you're saying.  Now I'm trying to remember if anyone actually touched Death (not counting when Death replaced Sam's soul...)

Edited August 10, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

That's what it seemed like to me--at least, the brushing off of his sleeve was the motion of squashing an unimportant insect.  That goes along with what Death told Dean about humans being so insignificant (was is, "how would you feel if a bacterium sat at your table and got snarky?")  It seemed very deliberate to me, but I can see what you're saying.  Now I'm trying to remember if anyone actually touched Death (not counting when Death replaced Sam's soul...)

 

That's how took it, as well.  I never took it any other way.  AFAIK, Dean never touched Death but if he did that doesn't alter my opinion that Death killed that dude on purpose. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I always thought coma Sam met with real Death.  Isn't that why Death said Sam owed him one in Brother's Keeper?  Sam was just about ready to say yes to Death and then Dean showed up (or Gadreel as Dean), and talked him into changing his mind.

I thought we've been told that reapers don't kill people, they just reap them?  I know that Death is more than just your average reaper, but I still didn't think he just randomly killed people.