“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess for me, I didn't think Sam really cared that Dean had lied to him. I think he cared that Dean didn't respect his agency.

But as I said, wasn't the lying part of not respecting Sam's agency?

In my opinion, I'm not sure why Gadreel killing Sam would accomplish anything. Could he even live in a dead host? And Gadreel had an alternate host, so he wasn't that backed into a corner.

As I've also said previously elsewhere, I think if Dean had wanted to, he could've found a sneaky way to let Sam know that something was up so that Sam could make his own decision. Dean's smart. He could've left a coded note. He could've had Kevin tell Sam in some cryptic way, etc. But Dean didn't want to tell Sam, because if Sam decided that he didn't want to house Gadreel and rejected him, then Sam might die. And for me, looking at it that way, Dean's not telling was a continuation of Dean deciding for Sam rather than letting Sam decide for himself. Gadreel's threats were an excuse Dean used to justify his lying, but if he'd really wanted to let Sam decide for himself, Dean could have found a way... but he didn't and his lying, in my opinion, was as much a part of taking away Sam's agency as his original decision was. Maybe even more so, in my opinion, because Dean might've thought Sam would've wanted to live when he first asked for angel help. But once Sam had his own faculties back and was able to think for himself, and things started going south, not telling Sam was more of an active choice by Dean to take Sam's decision away from him. In my opinion anyway.

I happen to be one of those people who don't hold Dean's original decision to help Gadreel possess Sam against Dean. For me, it was definitely the lying part I objected most to, especially when Sam started to think he was going crazy.

Edited June 26, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But as I said, wasn't the lying part of not respecting Sam's agency?

I understand that you're saying that's what you objected to.

I was thinking from Sam's perspective what he would have been the most angry about. I was thinking more about Sam giving consent to be being possessed which he couldn't have done when he was in coma land. So for me, I don't know what Sam was exactly referring to when he was upset with Dean about lying to him. That's unclear to me.  Gadreel could have killed Sam's soul, taken away his life force and remained in his meatsuit.

I don't really see how Dean could have let him know without Gadreel figuring it out. Even in some small way. IIRC, didn't Dean try to do that but Gadreel reinforced the rules of the game and the continued threats to Sam's welfare?

Edited June 26, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IIRC, didn't Dean try to do that but Gadreel reinforced the rules of the game and the continued threats to Sam's welfare?

I don't remember a lot of season 9 enough to say for sure. It's not one of my favorites, because of how Sam was portrayed, mostly in light of Gadreel's redemption. I mean yes, Gadreel had gotten a raw deal, but he also did a lot of shady stuff. But with all that happened and all that was done to Sam, somehow Sam still managed to be made to look the worst out of just about everyone (except Metatron - thank goodness for that), in my opinion, and I'm not quite sure how the writers managed that one.

I do remember Gadreel warning Dean that if Sam knew he was there and rejected him, that Sam would die, and Dean not wanting that to happen, but that's the only thing I remember specifically in that regard. Well that and Gadreel telling Dean that he was wiping Sam's memory sometimes.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking from Sam's perspective what he would have been the most angry about. I was thinking more about Sam giving consent to be being possessed which he couldn't have done when he was in coma land. So for me, I don't know what Sam was exactly referring to when he was upset with Dean about lying to him. That's unclear to me. 

I remembered Sam being angry about the lying, because it reminded me of "The Mentalists" and Sam's issues with that, especially after his mental breakdown in season 7. In some earlier seasons, Sam kind of shrugged off Dean's little white lies for at least a while - especially the "I'm fine" one that Sam himself is somewhat fond of, but after his Lucifer hallucinations, Sam seemed to object more strongly to Dean lying, even though in season 8, Sam went back to it himself - which thanks Carver. *sarcasm.* Sam actually was doing fairly well with keeping the lying to a minimum throughout season 5 through 7, I thought. I was actually surprised at how open he'd gotten with Dean, even with admitting when he couldn't handle things. Sam had a momentary blip in early season 7, but once Dean told Sam why it was important Sam not keep his mental state from him and why, Sam was really open about how he was doing and kept Dean informed on a regular basis. Which I think was one of the reasons why Sam got testy about Dean lying to him about Amy - Sam had enough to deal with in keeping what was real and what wasn't straight without Dean lying to him...

And here with Gadreel, once again Sam had been unsure about what was real and what was Gadreel messing with his mind, even if Sam didn't exactly know what it was at the time. So Dean also lying to him and contributing to Sam not knowing what was real and what was him getting messed with rather than being Sam's constant... well, that wasn't exactly fun for Sam.* Dean knew what Sam went through with his Lucifer hallucinations - Sam trying to be Zen about notwithstanding - and Dean seemingly condoning Sam's mind getting messed with again by lying about what was wrong with Sam when Sam asked - even if it was to heal him - I could see why Sam might be angry about that.

* and I really did feel a lot of sympathy for Sam during that part of the season. Sam was really struggling with losing time and feeling like something was very, very wrong with him while Dean just kept assuring him it was nothing, just Sam healing from trial trauma. But then with "The Purge," the writers took all of that set up and threw it out the window to make Sam pissy, unreasonable, and hypocritical. Instead of keeping with the trauma Sam went through and why he should be rightly angry about that, Gadreel was retconned into "not meaning Sam any harm" and a "friend", while Sam was just being unreasonably angry with Dean for trying to save his life.

Hello, my name is AwesomO. I have serious issues with how Sam's character was thrown under the bus portrayed in season 8 and 9.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I'm also not sure what Sam meant by the last thing. He said that Dean wanting to do or thinking he was doing the right thing wasn't the problem - something that the "The Purge" speech seemed to contradict - since Sam does say exactly what Dean was saying rather than sticking with his "don't go thinking that's the problem," statement.

I think Dean was saying that he was leaving because he's dangerous to people around him and didn't want SAm to get hurt.  I think Sam was saying that wasn't the problem because the problem was the lying and deception and such.

 

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't really see how Dean could have let him know without Gadreel figuring it out. Even in some small way. IIRC, didn't Dean try to do that but Gadreel reinforced the rules of the game and the continued threats to Sam's welfare?

Of course, he couldn't do it without Gadreel knowing. But, Gadreel only cared about Sam knowing because he was afraid he would eject him. He never said, "if you tell Sam, I'll kill him."  So, the only reason for Dean to not tell Sam, is for Sam not to be able to make his own choice.  So, every day Dean lied, was another day he was taking away Sam's choice.

[denise42]

Does anyone have the postal address of Mark Pedowitz.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But as I said, wasn't the lying part of not respecting Sam's agency?

In my opinion, I'm not sure why Gadreel killing Sam would accomplish anything. Could he even live in a dead host? And Gadreel had an alternate host, so he wasn't that backed into a corner.

As I've also said previously elsewhere, I think if Dean had wanted to, he could've found a sneaky way to let Sam know that something was up so that Sam could make his own decision. Dean's smart. He could've left a coded note. He could've had Kevin tell Sam in some cryptic way, etc. But Dean didn't want to tell Sam, because if Sam decided that he didn't want to house Gadreel and rejected him, then Sam might die. And for me, looking at it that way, Dean's not telling was a continuation of Dean deciding for Sam rather than letting Sam decide for himself. Gadreel's threats were an excuse Dean used to justify his lying, but if he'd really wanted to let Sam decide for himself, Dean could have found a way... but he didn't and his lying, in my opinion, was as much a part of taking away Sam's agency as his original decision was. Maybe even more so, in my opinion, because Dean might've thought Sam would've wanted to live when he first asked for angel help. But once Sam had his own faculties back and was able to think for himself, and things started going south, not telling Sam was more of an active choice by Dean to take Sam's decision away from him. In my opinion anyway.

I happen to be one of those people who don't hold Dean's original decision to help Gadreel possess Sam against Dean. For me, it was definitely the lying part I objected most to, especially when Sam started to think he was going crazy.

Personally, I objected to the lying because I knew from the start that would only end badly and it made Dean act the fool I'd never before considered him to be. Threats and blackmail only work if you let them work and Dean has usually been someone who knows that in the past. Whether or not Dean could've found a wily way to tell Sam--I think he easily could've if he'd tried--there were other things Dean could've done, if he'd wanted to, in order to not leave himself at the mercy of Gadreel. But, IMO, Dean didn't do anything because he needed the threat and blackmail as a way to justify keeping Sam in the dark. Dean knew that Sam might choose to die over being possessed, so Dean wasn't going to let Sam choose anything.

So, I think Sam's objection wasn't the lying, per se, but is angry that, after everything, Dean still didn't trust Sam to make the right choice when it came down to it. And, I think Sam would've forgiven Dean right off if Dean hadn't ran off saying he was toxic to avoid having to deal with it. By the time they come back together, Sam's had more time to stew and Dean still refuses to knowledge Sam has a valid point of view and instead is just waiting for Sam to get over it so they go back to normal; which was only making Sam more angry and frustrated. 

I think the bigger problem by the time we get to The Purge is, Dean is being influenced by the Mark, it's just that both of them are so caught up in themselves they don't see it yet. Dean was never going to be able to see Sam's point of view at that point--as he's generally been able to in the past--the Mark wasn't going to let him. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, denise42 said:

Does anyone have the postal address of Mark Pedowitz.

Here's the address for The CW:

The CW Television Network
3300 W. Olive Avenue
Burbank, CA 91505

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Of course, he couldn't do it without Gadreel knowing. But, Gadreel only cared about Sam knowing because he was afraid he would eject him. He never said, "if you tell Sam, I'll kill him."  So, the only reason for Dean to not tell Sam, is for Sam not to be able to make his own choice.  So, every day Dean lied, was another day he was taking away Sam's choice.

Gadreel didn't say he would personally kill Sam if he ejected him, but he did repeatedly say that Sam was not strong enough and would die without him.  That was the only reason Dean continued to keep the truth from Sam.  He didn't care that Sam would be angry with him, he cared that Sam survive.  And Dean was still under the impression that Gadreel was a "good" angel at that point.  He had no idea who he was dealing with until it was too late.

Edited June 26, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I remember listening to the commentary on this ep and they said that Jared was in Hawaii on vacay while Jensen had to work. I always assumed that they knew he would be out for a certain period of time so they used the time to write a Dean centric ep while putting more focus on Castiel who was a brand new character that had to be fleshed out. I could be wrong...

Back when I first watched the eps, I binged them all on Netflix, so I didn't watch or listen to the behind the scenes commentary.  And I wasn't on the forum, or any forum for SPN, so I didn't know about any bts reasons to do with the actors either.  Even when I first got on this forum I tried to avoid learning too much about the actors' personal lives as that usually tends to ruin a character for me.  (After awhile, it's just impossible to completely avoid picking up some things here!  :) )

All that to say, all I knew about the episode(s) is what I saw on screen.

12 hours ago, Bessie said:

In my experience, most Sam fans hate The Purge in a similar way to the hate most Dean fans have for Fallen Idols. 

I actually kind of liked The Purge - until that end scene.  I liked seeing Donna again, anyway.

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think Sam is right that their dynamic needed to change so they could function effectively again. It wasn't about whose fault it was for the Devil getting let out of the cage, but about them moving forward as a team. Relationships are two way streets and even though Sam made a lot of mistakes with Ruby, the problems between Sam and Dean were not one-sided or about Ruby. If they were going to work together and move forward, it can't be just Sam changing his ways, but Dean was going to have to make some adjustments too. Falling back into that big brother/little brother dynamic was only going to lead them to being back in the same place again.

I agree with this so much!  

[JanetWaldo]

19 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, I believe it was literally said it would look like Graceland...not quite the same theme park. TBH, I think Disneyland would be more like Hell than Graceland, myself. ;)

Lol!  Well, I've been to DisneyWorld, not DisneyLand - does that count?  Been to Graceland too - that was pretty cool.  DisneyWorld was actually very nice for a huge theme park. (Much rather go there than any of the Six Flags parks)  But I guess it depends on where you're at in your life.  That was when I was much younger and with my much younger daughter.  If I went now - it probably would be a little like Hell.  :)

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He didn't care that Sam would be angry with him, he cared that Sam survive.  And Dean was still under the impression that Gadreel was a "good" angel at that point.  He had no idea who he was dealing with until it was too late.

Yes, he didn't care about what Sam wanted, or what Sam would decide. That's the whole point. And whether or not Gadreel was a "good" angel was also beside the point. The point was it should have been Sam's choice.

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Gadreel didn't say he would personally kill Sam ejected, but he did repeatedly say that Sam was not strong enough and would die without him.  That was the only reason Dean continued to keep the truth from Sam.  He didn't care that Sam would be angry with him, he cared that Sam survive.  And Dean was still under the impression that Gadreel was a "good" angel at that point.  He had no idea who he was dealing with until it was too late.

See, I think those are the things Dean told himself at the time, but they were excuses so Dean didn't have to face that Sam might choose to die--which was Sam's choice to make. And, I think Dean knew that, deep down, they were just excuses. 

12 minutes ago, JanetWaldo said:

Lol!  Well, I've been to DisneyWorld, not DisneyLand - does that count?  Been to Graceland too - that was pretty cool.  DisneyWorld was actually very nice for a huge theme park. (Much rather go there than any of the Six Flags parks)  But I guess it depends on where you're at in your life.  That was when I was much younger and with my much younger daughter.  If I went now - it probably would be a little like Hell.  :)

Well, I wouldn't want to go to any theme park, but Graceland doesn't sound quite so...overwhelming maybe? I think it comes down to the amount of people and all the structure needed to make these places work. It just doesn't sound like fun to me.

Although, it could be childhood trauma from when my grandparents took my siblings and I to Disneyland when I was 4 or 5--Mickey Mouse creeped me out and made me cry! ;)

Edited June 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, he didn't care about what Sam wanted, or what Sam would decide. That's the whole point. And whether or not Gadreel was a "good" angel was also beside the point. The point was it should have been Sam's choice.

Exactly. Sam is not some toy Dean can choose to do whatever he wishes with. He is a grown man with the right to his own autonomy and to decide his own fate.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

54 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, he didn't care about what Sam wanted, or what Sam would decide. That's the whole point. And whether or not Gadreel was a "good" angel was also beside the point. The point was it should have been Sam's choice.

Sam wasn't in a position to make any choice when Dean made the decision to allow Gadreel to possess Sam.  

Sam fans are upset because Dean took Sam's agency away to save his life, but I doubt they'd be happier if he hadn't done that and Sam had died and been written off the show.  And the same goes for Dean fans as well.  We don't get to be outraged that Charlie was killed and the Darkness was set free while Sam did whatever he needed to in order to save Dean from the MOC.  Had Sam made the "right" choice, my favorite would have been written off the show.  

We argue these points all the time about who did what to whom, who went too far, who was crueler, but these things will continue to happen as long as the show is on the air.  Neither brother is going to die, so the other brother will do whatever needs to be done to save them.  I really do know better than to get into this discussion, but sometimes I just can't help myself.  

Edited June 26, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Gadreel didn't say he would personally kill Sam ejected, but he did repeatedly say that Sam was not strong enough and would die without him.  That was the only reason Dean continued to keep the truth from Sam.  He didn't care that Sam would be angry with him, he cared that Sam survive.  And Dean was still under the impression that Gadreel was a "good" angel at that point.  He had no idea who he was dealing with until it was too late.

That is a key factor here.

Dean still thought it was the good, helping angel Ezekiel right up to the moment Cas told him Ezekiel was dead. All the information Dean AND Cas had to that moment was that  Ezekiel was a trustworthy and good soldier. So, Dean was still operating under the information he had when he agreed to let 'Ezekiel' help heal Sam. The worries that Dean had were assuaged by Cas' endorsement of Ezekiel. Neither knew he was not Ezekiel. 

IMO, Dean's biggest mistake was not telling Cas what was going on although Cas still thought it was Ezekiel. So I'm not sure that the end result would have been any different, since Cas didn't have his grace he couldn't have pinged that it wasn't Ezekiel inside Sam.  And the next mistake was not telling Kevin exactly why he needed an angel banishing spell once he learned Ezekiel was dead.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Exactly. Sam is not some toy Dean can choose to do whatever he wishes with. He is a grown man with the right to his own autonomy and to decide his own fate.

Respectfully, this seems to be a bit of a reach to say that Dean treated Sam like a toy. EVER in Sam's life. That simply is not true.  It also tends to ignore the facts of what happened for reasons that I don't quite understand.

Sam was dying. Period. The end. Should Dean have let Sam die? That is the only choice Dean took away from Sam who was in a coma. And Dean relied on his best friends' endorsement of the angel they both believed was Ezekiel.

The only person treating Sam like a toy was Gadreel. He was the one that kept using Sam's life as a threat to hold over Dean.

[JanetWaldo]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, it could be childhood trauma from when my grandparents took my siblings and I to Disneyland when I was 4 or 5--Mickey Mouse creeped me out and made me cry! ;)

Aww!  If it makes you feel any better, Mickey Mouse scared my (then 6 yr old) daughter too.  But she loved Minnie!

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam wasn't in a position to make any choice when Dean made the decision to allow Gadreel to possess Sam.  

True, Dean found a way to save Sam and made a tough call when Sam was in no position to make it for himself, but once the danger passed, Dean still didn't stop and let Sam make the choice for himself. Perhaps Sam would've chosen to accept the possession at that point? I don't think Gadreel's empty threats on Sam's life were really much of a factor for Dean; Dean would've never accepted Sam choosing something other than life and wasn't willing to take the chance that Sam would eject Gadreel of his own free will.

What it really comes down to, despite Dean saying otherwise, Dean just didn't trust Sam to be able to make the decision for himself. Which, considering their history, is understandable from Dean's point of view. But, I also think Sam's anger is understandable from Sam's point of view as well. 

So, personally, I don't hold any anger at Dean for making the choice he did, but I'm also not making any excuses for him. He made a choice that threw him down a long twisty rabbit hole, but there were marked exits along the way, Dean just chose not to avail himself of any of them until it was too late. 

3 minutes ago, JanetWaldo said:

Aww!  If it makes you feel any better, Mickey Mouse scared my (then 6 yr old) daughter too.  But she loved Minnie!

I don't actually remember it myself, but there are pictures and stories... . ;)

Edited June 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

56 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam fans are upset because Dean took Sam's agency away to save his life, but I doubt they'd be happier if he hadn't done that and Sam had died and been written off the show.  And the same goes for Dean fans as well.  We don't get to be outraged that Charlie was killed and the Darkness was set free while Sam did whatever he needed to in order to save Dean from the MOC.  Had Sam made the "right" choice, my favorite would have been written off the show.

The characters don't know that they are characters in a TV Show, though, so we have to judge them by in-universe rules.

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam was dying. Period. The end. Should Dean have let Sam die? That is the only choice Dean took away from Sam who was in a coma. And Dean relied on his best friends' endorsement of the angel they both believed was Ezekiel.

I agree with this. I think the subsequent lying was a problem for several reasons, and think Dean could have handled things better when he realized that Gadreel was bad news. But I can't remotely blame Dean for his original decision. Sam probably would have been pissed in any case, but a lot of his anger comes from the fact that everything goes so tragically wrong - something Dean couldn't have anticipated. 

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The characters don't know that they are characters in a TV Show, though, so we have to judge them by in-universe rules.

That would be a hell of a lot easier if the writers didn't make them do such outrageous things sometimes.  I can't hold the characters responsible for things they do that are completely out-of-character for them, a la Sam in season 8.  

If I'm looking at Dean's actions by in-universe rules, I guess I would have done the same thing he did.  Even if I thought my brother might be suicidal, I would still have opted to save him.  I'd also have to live with the consequences, if he never spoke to me again...but I think I could do that more easily than allowing him to die when he wasn't able to make the choice on his own.  Of course, this decision would be based on supernatural rules, allowing for the possibility of angel possession and complete healing of a human being.  Without that possibility, then my decision would be different.  My brother wouldn't want to be saved to live a life as a vegetable, or some other horrific fate, so it's difficult to compare Supernatural to real life.

Edited June 26, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Dean has faced Sam's death several times. He's found ways to save him because  Dean's entire life goal, as fucked up and bullshit as I think it is, is to Save Sam. It's essentially what he was raised and trained by John to do. It's why he sold his for Sam's life. It's why he was willing to make a deal with Billie to trade his life for Sam's. It's never been that Dean can't live without Sam, but Dean cannot live with Sam dead, meaning Dean will do whatever it takes to save Sam's life. If it was only about Dean not being able to live without Sam, he would have killed himself the first time Sam died, IMO. 

The thing that complicates all of this is that the last best good legitimate conscious choice Sam made that Dean heard him make was in Sacrifice, when Sam made the choice to not die. Why would Dean rely on Sam's coma adled brain scape as Sam's decision making? That's what I'll never quite understand about the argument that Dean did it for Dean. Sam was not of sound mind or body to make the choice. Sam didn't leave a DNR. He didn't really even leave a "DNP", do not possess. Dean thought Sam wouldn't like it, which Dean set aside in favor of going with a risky procedure.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The thing that complicates all of this is that the last best good legitimate conscious choice Sam made that Dean heard him make was in Sacrifice, when Sam made the choice to not die. Why would Dean rely on Sam's coma adled brain scape as Sam's decision making? That's what I'll never quite understand about the argument that Dean did it for Dean. Sam was not of sound mind or body to make the choice. Sam didn't leave a DNR. He didn't really even leave a "DNP", do not possess. Dean thought Sam wouldn't like it, which Dean set aside in favor of going with a risky procedure.

I think you're missing the point of the argument. It's not that Dean made the decision when Sam couldn't, it's that when Sam was able and there was time to discuss it, Dean still decided for Sam. We're not talking about the initial decision here, we're talking the after, when Sam was no longer in immediate danger and there was time for them to discuss their options together. Dean still was making the choices for Sam, not because he couldn't live without Sam, but because he didn't trust that Sam would make the choice Dean wanted him to make. 

[MysteryGuest]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think you're missing the point of the argument. It's not that Dean made the decision when Sam couldn't, it's that when Sam was able and there was time to discuss it, Dean still decided for Sam. We're not talking about the initial decision here, we're talking the after, when Sam was no longer in immediate danger and there was time for them to discuss their options together. Dean still was making the choices for Sam, not because he couldn't live without Sam, but because he didn't trust that Sam would make the choice Dean wanted him to make.

Well, I think that was still mitigated by Gadreel's insistence that Sam wouldn't survive if he expelled him.  Sam might have done so in a knee-jerk response to Dean's having made that decision for him, and then Sam would be dead.  Dean committed to allowing Gadreel access until Sam was healthy enough, rightly or wrongly.  Much in the same way that Sam ignored the warnings of the dire consequences of removing the Mark of Cain.  They both operate on a "save my brother first, worry about the consequences later" code.

[companionenvy]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I think that was still mitigated by Gadreel's insistence that Sam wouldn't survive if he expelled him.  Sam might have done so in a knee-jerk response to Dean's having made that decision for him, and then Sam would be dead.  Dean committed to allowing Gadreel access until Sam was healthy enough, rightly or wrongly.

Yes, but given how liberal angels are on the concept of consent, it was never all that credible to me that an immediate negative reaction to learning the truth -- absent a direct order to leave, and maybe not even in that case -- would have expelled Gadreel. I mean, there must have been times when Jimmy Novak had some pretty bitter thoughts about Cas, but Cas wasn't forced to vacate the vessel. 

In any case, Dean could have set up the conversation in such a way to make the stakes very clear, i.e "Sam, I'm going to tell you something, and you might be pissed but it is very, very important for you to stay calm and not do anything too quickly, because you will quite literally die if you do." It would be a risk, but not, I think, even close to as big a risk as they take on every hunt. Which suggests to me that the reason Dean didn't attempt this wasn't because he thought Sam might expel Gadreel in a moment of panic, but because he thought Sam might make the rational, collected decision that he wasn't willing to survive on these terms - which is a decision that I think he had the right to make.

Even so, I consider Dean's perspective here to be extremely sympathetic. It was wrong, but it was the kind of wrong I can easily forgive. I don't think Sam would have been that forgiving in any case, but Kevin's death guaranteed that he would take what would have been a violation (however good the cause) in any case in the worst possible light.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I think that was still mitigated by Gadreel's insistence that Sam wouldn't survive if he expelled him.  Sam might have done so in a knee-jerk response to Dean's having made that decision for him, and then Sam would be dead.

And, that was Sam's choice to make, either way, not Dean's. Perhaps Sam would've agreed to the possession? We'll never know because no one gave Sam a voice in the matter.

Like I said, I don't blame Dean--he didn't set out to hurt Sam intentionally--I'm just not making any excuses for him either. And, quite frankly, I don't think Dean would appreciate me doing so.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I agree with this. I think the subsequent lying was a problem for several reasons, and think Dean could have handled things better when he realized that Gadreel was bad news. But I can't remotely blame Dean for his original decision. Sam probably would have been pissed in any case, but a lot of his anger comes from the fact that everything goes so tragically wrong - something Dean couldn't have anticipated. 

I don't know what Dean could have done differently though. The only thing Dean could have differently, was to risk Sam's life by getting a message to Sam before he the fatetful day when Gadreel killed Kevin. Even if Dean blinked Morse code to Sam, Gadreel would have figured out and Gadreel could have simply left Sam's weakened dying body or even harmed Sam himself to make Dean believe that Sam was not healing. Either way Gadreel, sadly, had the upper hand on both Sam AND Dean.

As to when Dean learned it was not Ezekiel that was literally the same day that Gadreel killed Kevin.

Gadreel had been out of the bunker meeting with Metatron. Dean gets the call from Cas and learns Ezekiel was dead so and he realizes that the angel inside Sam was not Ezekiel. He immediately went to Kevin to help find a way power down an angel to talk to the meatsuit. Yes Dean should have told Kevin what was up but even if Kevin knew it was about Sam, it wouldn't have changed anything because Gadreel had come back to the bunker and overheard the conversation between Dean and Kevin and he knew what they were doing. He met with Dean pretending to be Sam. Then Gadreel cold cocks Dean and kills Kevin.

I literally don't know between the time Dean figured out that the angel inside Sam was not Ezekiel, and then told Sam to expel him what he could have done differently.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know what Dean could have done differently though. The only thing Dean could have differently, was to risk Sam's life by getting a message to Sam before he the fatetful day when Gadreel killed Kevin.

I think all Dean had to do was to tell Sam, plead his case. My money is on Sam saying yes to the possession at that point. That's why I say Gadreel's threats were empty. Sam wasn't suicidal, but he would accept death if it was his time. However, I don't think Dean was willing to take the chance Sam wouldn't accept the possession, so he went along with Gadreel's empty threats until he couldn't any longer. Then it was too late to turn back. But there were two or three times Dean could've come clean early on that I think could've changed everything. But, hey, that's how we learn, right?

[MysteryGuest]

44 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Yes, but given how liberal angels are on the concept of consent, it was never all that credible to me that an immediate negative reaction to learning the truth -- absent a direct order to leave, and maybe not even in that case -- would have expelled Gadreel. I mean, there must have been times when Jimmy Novak had some pretty bitter thoughts about Cas, but Cas wasn't forced to vacate the vessel. 

In any case, Dean could have set up the conversation in such a way to make the stakes very clear, i.e "Sam, I'm going to tell you something, and you might be pissed but it is very, very important for you to stay calm and not do anything too quickly, because you will quite literally die if you do." It would be a risk, but not, I think, even close to as big a risk as they take on every hunt. Which suggests to me that the reason Dean didn't attempt this wasn't because he thought Sam might expel Gadreel in a moment of panic, but because he thought Sam might make the rational, collected decision that he wasn't willing to survive on these terms - which is a decision that I think he had the right to make.

I think we'll just agree to disagree at this point.  I think if Sam had told Gadreel to leave, he'd have had no choice but to go.  That's why Gadreel had to work so hard to convince Dean that Sam would die.  It was to keep Dean from having the very conversation with Sam that you mention, which he actually started to have on more than one occasion.  Until Gadreel managed to convince him otherwise.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In any case, Dean could have set up the conversation in such a way to make the stakes very clear, i.e "Sam, I'm going to tell you something, and you might be pissed but it is very, very important for you to stay calm and not do anything too quickly, because you will quite literally die if you do." It would be a risk, but not, I think, even close to as big a risk as they take on every hunt. Which suggests to me that the reason Dean didn't attempt this wasn't because he thought Sam might expel Gadreel in a moment of panic, but because he thought Sam might make the rational, collected decision that he wasn't willing to survive on these terms - which is a decision that I think he had the right to make.

That is exactly what Dean tried to do once he realized that Ezekiel was not the angel in Sam. But Gadreel had already known the plan.  The only way Dean could have avoided any of this was to let Sam die. That's it. To me it's all mitigated by Castiel vouching for 'Ezekiel'. Neither Cas nor Dean knew that possession was the "helping" thing but Dean couldn't call Cas back to say "Hey, this guy wants to possess Sam" because Cas didn't have a phone. And at that point Cas was busy being kidnapped by Hael.

IMO, Gadreel played the whole thing perfectly once he had the chance to use Sam's vessel. I think Gadreel was both desperate to survive and not be found by the other angels and had a sense that he wanted to redeem himself as well. So I think his sincerity in wanting to help, Dean's desperation to save Sam and Cas' endorsement of Ezekiel all worked in Gadreel's favor. Then he became desperate inside Sam to stay there and avoid being punished again. 

 

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I think all Dean had to do was to tell Sam, plead his case. My money is on Sam saying yes to the possession at that point. That's why I say Gadreel's threats were empty. Sam wasn't suicidal, but he would accept death if it was his time. However, I don't think Dean was willing to take the chance Sam wouldn't accept the possession, so he went along with Gadreel's empty threats until he couldn't any longer. Then it was too late to turn back. But there were two or three times Dean could've come clean early on that I think could've changed everything. But, hey, that's how we learn, right?

They weren't empty threats though IMO, because once the cat was out of the bag, Gadreel put Sam on such deep lockdown that it took Crowley possessing Sam to get Sam's attention so Sam could boot him out.  That demonstrated to me that Gadreel could have done that anytime he wanted. 

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They weren't empty threats though IMO, because once the cat was out of the bag, Gadreel put Sam on such deep lockdown that it took Crowley possessing Sam to get Sam's attention so Sam could boot him out.  That demonstrated to me that Gadreel could have done that anytime he wanted. 

Except, early on, if Dean had called the angel's bluff, there really wasn't much he could've done. And, TBH, I believe that Gadreel's original goal was to help. It's just that the longer it went on the more he liked the safety Sam's vessel provided him and he didn't want to go. So, the only threat against Sam to begin with was if Sam ejected the angel and wasn't strong enough to live without him.

So, IMO, the best course of action would've been to convince Sam to keep the angel so the angel couldn't continue to manipulate and blackmail Dean. That way, Sam could've been an active participant in the possession. And when things went sideways--because they always go sideways--Sam would've been in the know so he could've ejected Gadreel rather than sitting unawares in the dream world Gadreel locked him in. Knowledge is power, ya know?

But, in reality, I would've been happy if Dean had done anything to have an edge over the angel. And, I mean anything. He waited until the last second to even search for something to depower an angel. He should've done that at the very beginning. Whether it worked or not, at least I wouldn't have seen Dean as such a dupe though the whole thing. Because, from the moment the angel threw out the caveat that they should keep Sam in the dark it should've thrown up red flags that there were ulterior motives afoot. I mean, Dean's the guy who cloned his brother's phone just in case he needed it the year before... .

Edited June 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except, early on, if Dean had called the angel's bluff, there really wasn't much he could've done. And, TBH, I believe that Gadreel's original goal was to help. It's just that the longer it went on the more he liked the safety Sam's vessel provided him and he didn't want to go. So, the only threat against Sam to begin with was if Sam ejected the angel and wasn't strong enough to live without him

What would Gadreel have been bluffing about, I think that's what I'm not following here. I'm not arguing just trying to follow what the bluff would have been.

I don't think he gradually liked the safety of the vessel. I think he knew from the jump he found an answer to his ongoing problem of other angels finding him. Once he was in Sam's noggin, he knew about the bunker, it's angel warding, etc. I guess I give Gadreel a lot more credit for being a devious, conniving douchebag from the jump. Sure I think he wanted to help but he was highly opportunistic.

Edited June 26, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

What would Gadreel have been bluffing about, I think that's what I'm not following here. I'm not arguing just trying to follow what the bluff would have been.

Gadreel was manipulating Dean with that threat--and IMO, quite obviously so. Gadreel was hiding out in Sam and didn't want Sam to find out and eject him any more than Dean wanted it. He played on Dean's fears pure and simple and, IMO, if Dean had just called him on it to begin with there wasn't anything Gadreel could've done about it. Gadreel was injured himself and not all that powerful yet.

I think the smart option would've been to tell Sam, by any means necessary, so he would've been in the know no matter what Gadreel did. Sure, Gadreel could've at any time taken off with Sam's body, but that was the risk Dean took in the first place and he knew that. So, it would've been smarter to just say no to the manipulation and let the cards fall where they would, IMO, rather than let Gadreel find his legs and get more powerful.

But, like I said, that's how we learn, right?

[MysteryGuest]

Dean didn't really have the luxury to properly vet Gadreel, though he did ask for Cas's input.  Time was a major factor, and Gadreel did save Dean from the angel who tried to kill him, so he felt he could trust him.  He was between a rock and a hard place.  

As for missing red flags, they notice them when it works for the storyline, but are oblivious to them at other times for the same reason.  It can be endlessly frustrating.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Gadreel was manipulating Dean with that threat--and IMO, quite obviously so. Gadreel was hiding out in Sam and didn't want Sam to find out and eject him any more than Dean wanted it. He played on Dean's fears pure and simple and, IMO, if Dean had just called him on it to begin with there wasn't anything Gadreel could've done about it. Gadreel was injured himself and not all that powerful yet.

I think the smart option would've been to tell Sam, by any means necessary, so he would've been in the know no matter what Gadreel did. Sure, Gadreel could've at any time taken off with Sam's body, but that was the risk Dean took in the first place and he knew that. So, it would've been smarter to just say no to the manipulation and let the cards fall where they would, IMO, rather than let Gadreel find his legs and get more powerful.

But, like I said, that's how we learn, right?

I gotcha.

I was of the mind that Gadreel was exaggerating his own injuries and that he could have actually healed Sam all along because he had all his angel juice, but lied to Dean in order to possess Sam so he could hide in a weaker vessel that he could better control given that Sam, in his weakened state was less likely to eject him. The stronger Sam got the more likely he was to eject Gadreel. And the long Gadreel was in Sam, the more he could burrow his way into controlling Sam further.

I still think either way, Gadreel held a credible and real threat to Sam's welfare when he was supposed to be helping Sam.

I guess that's why I don't see Dean being able to challenge Gadreel on that front.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I still think either way, Gadreel held a credible and real threat to Sam's welfare when he was supposed to be helping Sam.

I guess that's why I don't see Dean being able to challenge Gadreel on that front.

Sure, but wouldn't have it been smart--and kinda awesome--for Dean to try and find some way to challenge him? But, it's not like Dean set out to hurt Sam--or Kevin--so it's kinda a wash with me. But, I understand why Sam would have some issues with it, is all.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I was of the mind that Gadreel was exaggerating his own injuries and that he could have actually healed Sam all along because he had all his angel juice, but lied to Dean in order to possess Sam so he could hide in a weaker vessel 

I think he couldn`t have healed Sam right away but far sooner then he claimed he could. And that his threats were genuine and held actual weight. At first, his threat obviously was done only out of self-preservation. Dean fully planned to tell Sam right away and that is when Gadreel came in with "if you do this, he will eject me and die on the spot". Which I 100 % believed because that`s exactly what would have happened. Sam wouldn`t have said yes at this point in a million years. That`s why Dean/Gadreel tricked him in the first place. And that was basically like five minutes after that.

Only as time passed, Gadreel seemed to change his mind and found his new vessel quite comfortable. At this point, I believe he had already healed Sam`s lethal injuries fully and regained his own strength. He still kept to the same threat though at that point it should have been "you tell me and I will tear through his mind before I leave" or "you tell him and I will make sure he is a corpse once I leave". As an angel, he could have made it happen. And as such, those would have been perfectly credible threats. He just didn`t wanna appear the bad guy.

But at no point did I think Gadreel held no real leverage or that he just made empty threats that couldn`t be backed up. So personally, I would have found it stupid to try and call a bluff where I never saw a bluff.

What Dean should have worked on was getting his own leverage against Gadreel, that`s true. But calling him out without a superior hand? Would have been a grave mistake IMO. Because lo and behold when he actually tried it, the entrapment with the sigil, thinking he was talking to Sam, it worked out like gangbusters. Kevin got killed and Dean only didn`t because... he wasn`t on Metatron`s little kill list.

Of course Gadreel was painfully naive as well with Metatron`s bidding. Why exactly? At that point, what power position had Metatron to offer? It reminded me how everyone in Season 11 seemed to believe Lucifer when he boasted like how he could defeat Amara. Even Lucifer himself appeared to believe that bullshit. Whereas the equation was very simple: Amara = being of Godlevel power, question: could Lucifer defeat God? answer: no. conclusion: no shot against Amara either. 

Stuff like that, I just can`t suspend my disbelief on. At least there was an in-story reason for why Gadreel was so naive and easily manipulated. A) it had happened again and b) he had been held prisoner and been tortured for so long.      

If I`m actually giving out stupidest character ever award, it would go to neither brother but Ruby 2 in her final scene where she actually expected Sam to be ultimately okay with her and what she had done and gaped like a fish when he held her to be gutted. OMG lady, you banged the guy, you couldn`t predict how he would react? You couldn`t even read it off his face? Here is your Darwin award.  

Edited June 26, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, but wouldn't have it been smart--and kinda awesome--for Dean to try and find some way to challenge him? But, it's not like Dean set out to hurt Sam--or Kevin--so it's kinda a wash with me. But, I understand why Sam would have some issues with it, is all.

It would have been awesome I just don't know where Dean would have started without Gadreel pinging what he was doing AFAIR, weren't Sam and Dean together pretty much all the time immediately post-possession until Metatron got in touch with Gadreel.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It would have been awesome I just don't know where Dean would have started without Gadreel pinging what he was doing AFAIR, weren't Sam and Dean together pretty much all the time immediately post-possession until Metatron got in touch with Gadreel.

Oh, I don't know, Sam was going for morning runs and getting breakfast by himself. Dean worked a whole case with Cass while Sam stayed in the bunker. And, I'm pretty sure they don't sleep together and they probably have their separate rooms for a reason... . There's always a way, if there's a will. But, IMO, Dean didn't have the will because, IMO, Dean subconsciously needed that threat in order to justify no telling Sam so he didn't have to take the risk Sam wouldn't go along with his plan. I don't think it was malicious on Dean's part, but I do think Dean was using it as an excuse.

Edited June 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

There's always a way, if there's a will. But, IMO, Dean didn't have the will because, IMO, Dean subconsciously needed that threat in order to justify no telling Sam so he didn't have to take the risk Sam wouldn't go along with his plan. I don't think it was malicious on Dean's part, but I do think Dean was using it as an excuse.

I would buy this if Dean were doing anything he could to avoid telling Sam, but he wasn't.  He attempted a few times, only to be interrupted by Gadreel and told that Sam wouldn't survive.  I think Dean genuinely believed him, whether that makes him gullible, or not.  Had Gadreel not been listening in, Dean would have told Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, it could be childhood trauma from when my grandparents took my siblings and I to Disneyland when I was 4 or 5--Mickey Mouse creeped me out and made me cry! ;)

Aww poor, 5 year old Ditty, that sounds truly awful... but at least it wasn't a clown. ; )

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't actually remember it myself, but there are pictures and stories... . ;)

Your family has photos of you crying while meeting Mickey? "And here's little [Ditty] meeting Mickey at Disney World..." If so, I don't know whether to find that really wrong or really amusing... maybe both?  ; )

 

7 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I would buy this if Dean were doing anything he could to avoid telling Sam, but he wasn't.  

Dean maybe wasn't doing everything to avoid telling Sam, but in my opinion, he was at the very least willfully ignoring a lot of red flags - like a whole bunch of them. There were signs from Sam himself that Sam wasn't feeling right: he was losing huge chunks of time, he was feeling "wrong" and like he was going crazy, etc. Gadreel himself told Dean that he was wiping Sam's memory, and instead of Dean strongly objecting, or even asking Gadreel to please keep that to a minimum, he seemed to be like "oh, okay, I guess." No, Dean that wasn't okay, like at all. Then Kevin tells Dean that Sam is leaving the bunker a lot, enough that Kevin found it odd enough  to mention it. Huge red flag, and how did Dean himself not notice that (when even Kevin had) unless he was purposely not noticing? Because a Sam too weak to survive without Gadreel shouldn't have been off doing stuff on his own for big chunks of time without cluing Dean in to his feeling better or without telling Dean he'd be gone for a while. Dean didn't even think to ask Sam what he was doing out - no "I guess you must be getting better if you're going out more on your own, right?" Or maybe Dean didn't want to know, because he suspected it might not actually be Sam going out a lot but didn't want to accept or even consider it ...And of course it wasn't Sam leaving the bunker a lot - it was Gadreel in Sam's body to going to see Metatron and to go kill angels and by extension, their human hosts.

I agree with DittyDotDot on this one. Dean was letting himself be lead or lulled into accepting Gadreel's manipulations - while, as DittyDotDot pointed out, not taking any precautions even when things started getting iffy - because true threat or not, it was easier than taking the chance that if he told Sam, Sam might make a decision Dean didn't want him to.

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If I`m actually giving out stupidest character ever award, it would go to neither brother but Ruby 2 in her final scene where she actually expected Sam to be ultimately okay with her and what she had done and gaped like a fish when he held her to be gutted. OMG lady, you banged the guy, you couldn`t predict how he would react? You couldn`t even read it off his face? Here is your Darwin award.

I agree with you on that one. "I've been manipulating you the entire time! I'm sure you're a little annoyed, but ehn you'll get over it, because you're just gonna love Lucifer. Aren't I awesome?" In what realty does that not get you shivved?

Although Sam just looking stupidly at Lilith's blood making a pattern rather than at least trying to mess it up, just in case that would help stop it gets at least an honorable mention from me, because that's the first thing I thought of as I watched that scene..."Don't just let the blood make whatever that symbol is, you idiot! Oh great, more Sam stupidity." (In retrospect especially, I have issues with season 4.)

[denise42]

Thanks for the address.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Your family has photos of you crying while meeting Mickey? "And here's little [Ditty] meeting Mickey at Disney World..." If so, I don't know whether to find that really wrong or really amusing... maybe both?  ; )

Not pictures of me meeting Mickey, but there's a picture of us all together and my grandfather is holding me and don't look at all happy. Since I've been told of the experience a few times. I assume it was taken after the Mickey encounter. 

15 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I would buy this if Dean were doing anything he could to avoid telling Sam, but he wasn't.  He attempted a few times, only to be interrupted by Gadreel and told that Sam wouldn't survive.  I think Dean genuinely believed him, whether that makes him gullible, or not.  Had Gadreel not been listening in, Dean would have told Sam.

I only remember Dean trying to tell Sam once--at the end of A Rock and A Hard Place--but, like I said, it was far too late at that point. Gadreel had already taken a shine to Sam's vessel and wasn't inclined to leave it at that point. However, I was mostly commenting on why I think Dean wasn't looking for a leg up on the angel. He could've found that spell to depower an angel months earlier--Kevin said it he found it in a book, not the tablet. For me, I think Dean was willfully ignoring the red flags and allowing himself to be manipulated by the angel because he didn't trust or believe in Sam enough that he'd make the right decision if he pulled the trigger.

IMO, Part of the reason Dean didn't trust in Sam here wasn't just because Sam has let him down a few times over the years--although, I think Sam feels like it was and that's mostly why he's so angry and hurt later--but Dean saw the moment where Sam was agreeing to go with Death. And, after his not caring if he died or not in that church, Dean wasn't sure what side Sam would fall on and Dean wasn't going to accept Sam choosing anything but life. So, IMO, Dean wasn't going to give Sam the chance to make any choice at all about his own life. Which, IMO, wasn't really Dean's choice to make, but I can understand why he thought it was at the time.

Edited June 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

I watched Season 4 "In the Beginning" a couple days ago with the commentary from Kripke and Carver. While Mary's holding John's dead body and dealing with the yellow-eyed demon, Carver says Kripke taught him how not to ruin a character permanently. Apparently Mary was coming across too harshly when she had to decide whether to save John by allowing Azazel to get something from her in the future. Kripke re-wrote the scene to not make us hate her. He didn't specify exactly how he changed it; that would have been interesting. Unfortunately, by season 8 it seems, Carver forgot or rejected Kripke's lesson.

I had what Kripke said in mind when I watched "The Monster at the End of the Book." Chuck tells Sam that he knows about him drinking demon blood, but "I didn't even write it into the books. I was afraid it would make you look unsympathetic." Chuck proceeds to challenge what Sam's doing and why. But by the end of the scene, Chuck hedges:

Quote

CHUCK
I'm sorry, Sam. I know it's a terrible burden – feeling that it all rests on your shoulders.

SAM
Does it? All rest on my shoulders?

CHUCK
That seems to be where the story's headed.

I wonder if Kripke was following his own advice and thought that exchange was sufficient to save Sam's character? I know Kripke doesn't have a writer's credit on this episode, but he said during the commentary that he had input/ control on all scripts. While I think season 4 is generally well-written, cohesive and mostly gripping drama, and I mostly sympathized with Sam, it seems like Kripke ruined Sam for a lot of people. So much so that even season 5 didn't redeem him.

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I wonder if Kripke was following his own advice and thought that exchange was sufficient to save Sam's character? I know Kripke doesn't have a writer's credit on this episode, but he said during the commentary that he had input/ control on all scripts. While I think season 4 is generally well-written, cohesive and mostly gripping drama, and I mostly sympathized with Sam, it seems like Kripke ruined Sam for a lot of people. So much so that even season 5 didn't redeem him.

Taking to Bitch/Jerk thread.

[ahrtee]

Moved from Writers/Directors thread.

59 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I wonder if Kripke was following his own advice and thought that exchange was sufficient to save Sam's character? I know Kripke doesn't have a writer's credit on this episode, but he said during the commentary that he had input/ control on all scripts. While I think season 4 is generally well-written, cohesive and mostly gripping drama, and I mostly sympathized with Sam, it seems like Kripke ruined Sam for a lot of people. So much so that even season 5 didn't redeem him.

I have to say that season 4 didn’t ruin Sam for me.  His story arc was well-written and well-played, and even if I didn’t like what he was doing, at least I understood why and it made sense given who he was and what he’d been through (except for a few confusing episodes like Chris Angel...)

What ruined Sam for me was season 5—when he became alternately whiney (complaining about  how no one was forgiving him and blaming others for his choices), self-righteous, and fake-humble (“I’m the least of you...”)  His actions were all over the place, and while I could understand his desire for redemption, his behavior in way too many episodes was completely opposite of what he was saying. 

It seemed to me (and I know MMV) that he was expecting Dean to forgive him automatically and was actually *angry* that he didn’t, and then went on to blame Dean.  He repeatedly said “mea culpa” but got upset when anyone else seemed to blame him.   Honestly?  If I were Dean and Sam had repeatedly lied to me for an entire year, I would have trouble trusting him too, for more than just an episode or two.  But I do have a lot of trust issues myself.  :)

I may not like Swan Song but it gave Sam a satisfying (and heroic) resolution (no comment on my Deangirl bitterness here, because it's already been done to death.)  And in season 6, Soulless Sam was also a well-developed (though unlikeable) character.  It seems to me that the reason so many Sam fans think Sam was “ruined” was that he wasn’t always the heroic Sam they wanted.  But he was a well-written, well-acted Sam, and if they spent as much time giving Dean a character arc (even/especially as DemonDean) I would have been very, very happy. 

I would say IMO  the only time they really trashed Sam’s character was season 8, when he was OOC with no extenuating circumstances.  But YMMV.

[Reganne]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Moved from Writers/Directors thread.

I have to say that season 4 didn’t ruin Sam for me.  His story arc was well-written and well-played, and even if I didn’t like what he was doing, at least I understood why and it made sense given who he was and what he’d been through (except for a few confusing episodes like Chris Angel...)

What ruined Sam for me was season 5—when he became alternately whiney (complaining about  how no one was forgiving him and blaming others for his choices), self-righteous, and fake-humble (“I’m the least of you...”)  His actions were all over the place, and while I could understand his desire for redemption, his behavior in way too many episodes was completely opposite of what he was saying. 

It seemed to me (and I know MMV) that he was expecting Dean to forgive him automatically and was actually *angry* that he didn’t, and then went on to blame Dean.  He repeatedly said “mea culpa” but got upset when anyone else seemed to blame him.   Honestly?  If I were Dean and Sam had repeatedly lied to me for an entire year, I would have trouble trusting him too, for more than just an episode or two.  But I do have a lot of trust issues myself.  :)

For me, Sam's character was never ruined.  I prefer my characters flawed.  My problem was with the narrative and pinning all the blame of the apacalypse solely on Sam when other people and factors played a hand in the final outcome.  When Dean found out he broke the first seal, he did initially blame himself.  However, he received compassion from other characters who didn't blame him.  

 

Then when season 5 starts, the blame is shifted solely on Sam's shoulders. Even Dean seemed to shift all the blame to Sam while talking on the phone with Bobby in fallen idols. I don't blame Dean for being angry with Sam for lying to him, but I can't forget that initially he wasn't even going to tell Sam that he had sold his soul to a demon and that Jake had actually killed Sam.  The only reason Sam knew was because he himself figured it out.  So Sam isn't the only one to keep stuff to himself in the relationship.  Even after Sam figured it out, Dean told Sam not to be angry with him.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Reganne

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What ruined Sam for me was season 5

Mine too. Him going "dark" in Season 4 wasn`t the problem. And really, compared to a lot of other characters in other shows, it wasn`t even that dark. My problem was the botched redemption in Season 5. For me he needed to be redeemed for one thing mainly: hubris. And Season 5 in the end was the antithesis of that. They pretty much zagged every time I wanted them the zig. Especially with the resolution. If I had blamed him for the act of freeing Lucifer, then defeating Lucifer might have been fitting for me. But it wasn`t that, it was the "I`m the one" attitude. So him actually turning out to be "the one" was only aggravating the problem for me. 

That was just dousing fires with gasoline. Flaws are fine, characters should have them but if I obviously disagree with the show in a character having flaws or what those main flaws are - and it is thus clear the show will never fix them - that`s when I have to give up on a character. After all, it is evident that they`ll never meet my likings.

With Dean, I have the opposite problem. I`m pretty sure from the show I should be looking down on him a lot more and liking him a lot less than I do but being steered in the negative direction doesn`t work on me either. 

Obviously, that makes the source material incredibly frustrating for me.   

[Katy M]

My main complaint about both of them is they never learn.  They keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Sure, the details vary.  But, it usually goes something like, trust a demon (or other evil thing), lie to brother, act surprised when it all blows up in your face, don't understand how/why brother is mad at you.  Rinse and repeat.

Therefore, I have the least problem with season 4.  Because it's the first time.  Not the first lie.  I guess that would be Dean not telling Sam that he sold his soul and that simultaneously Sam didn't tell dean that he had demon blood.  But, Dean's lie was uncovered quickly, and I for one totally forgot about the demon blood thing until it came out in Season 4.  So, I'm going with Season 4 being the first big lie and demon betrayal. 

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

For me, Sam's character was never ruined.  I prefer my characters flawed.  My problem was with the narrative and pinning all the blame of the apacalypse solely on Sam when other people and factors played a hand in the final outcome.  When Dean found out he broke the first seal, he did initially blame himself.  However, he received compassion from other characters who didn't blame him.  

 

Then when season 5 starts, the blame is shifted solely on Sam's shoulders. Even Dean seemed to shift all the blame to Sam while talking on the phone with Bobby in fallen idols. I don't blame Dean for being angry with Sam for lying to him, but I can't forget that initially he wasn't even going to tell Sam that he had sold his soul to a demon and that Jake had actually killed Sam.  The only reason Sam knew was because he himself figured it out.  So Sam isn't the only one to keep stuff to himself in the relationship.  Even after Sam figured it out, Dean told Sam not to be angry with him.

I was actually quoting @auntvi when she said "Kripke ruined Sam for a lot of people."  I know it doesn't go for everyone.  Personally, I like flawed characters too, but I prefer that they're consistent.

My problem with the "blame game" is that so many people seem to blame Dean for blaming Sam for the Apocalypse (say that three times fast!)  Yes, Dean acknowledged his responsibility first, and IIRC Cas told him "it's not blame...but fate."  But IMO Dean was blaming himself more for breaking and torturing souls than actually breaking the seal, which was incidental to what was in his mind the worse crime.  And he kept that guilt throughout all the years, refusing to accept comfort or excuses.  Sam, OTOH, blamed himself for breaking the seal, not for (what was IMO to Dean) the worse crime of betraying his family.***

(Side note, and JMO: an entire year of lying and betrayal (as Dean put it, "you chose a demon over your own brother!") is not equal to not telling Sam immediately that he'd sold his soul.)  

In any event, Dean told Sam over and over during season 5 that he *didn't* blame him for the Apocalypse.  He told Sam several times that he'd broken the first seal, and even (apologies for paraphrasing) when Sam said something like "but I killed Lilith" told him "yeah, and who knew that would be a BAD thing?"  Bobby told him in 5.1 that he would never cut him out.  But everyone keeps quoting that one scene in Fallen Idols as if that's Dean's true underlying feeling.  And that's mostly due to the fact that the writers keep bringing the dead horse back to life years later, any time they wanted to ramp up the angst.  

If you read the actual quote, it doesn't actually *say* anything, though it is implied:  

     DEAN is talking on his cell phone, facing away from the door.

     DEAN: Yeah, Abraham Lincoln and James Dean, can you believe that? ...Why so kill-crazy? Ah, maybe the apocalypse has got 'em all hot and bothered. Yeah, well, we all know whose fault that is. ...Well I'm sorry, but it's true.

Then, when Sam confronts him, Sam is obviously feeling like the wronged party:

     SAM: So we're just gonna pretend I didn't hear what I just heard?

     DEAN shrugs.

     DEAN: Pretend or don't pretend. Whatever floats your boat.

     SAM: This was supposed to be a fresh start, Dean.

     DEAN: Well, this is about as fresh as it gets. Now are we going or not?

So there are several things that are problematic for me here.  First, we're going on assumptions that Dean was blaming Sam for the Apocalypse, and Dean doesn't deny it.  But to me, it shows what I said before:  Dean still hasn't forgiven Sam for lying.  He's still pissed.  But Sam is insisting that Dean get over it *right now* and is angry that he hasn't.  Dean, for once, wasn't ignoring or denying his anger at Sam.  But Sam kept challenging him about being on probation and not being an equal partner, which, to me, was a little premature at that point.  In my experience, you have to rebuild trust before you can be treated as an equal, and Sam still had a way to go.  

But IMO the "narrative" (at least in season 5) *doesn't* put all the blame for the Apocalypse on Sam--at least, not among his friends and family.  Obviously hunters were different,  which is why Walt and Roy went after him (though by this year apparently either it's been forgiven or forgotten by most of the hunters), but Dean and Bobby kept supporting and reassuring him.  So, the fact that the writers brought it up again in seasons 8, 9 and 11 (I think) and made it seem like Dean's been blaming him all along is just...wrong.

 

***this has started me on a whole other train of thought, and I'll have to think about it.  Maybe I'll write more about it later.  Right now, it's OT for this post.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by ahrtee

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I have to say that season 4 didn’t ruin Sam for me.  His story arc was well-written and well-played, and even if I didn’t like what he was doing, at least I understood why and it made sense given who he was and what he’d been through (except for a few confusing episodes like Chris Angel...)

For me it was the confusing episodes like "Chris Angel..." that made the generally well-written story a little less so. And I think the attempt to keep Sam's story a mystery also didn't help, especially since the reveal of the mystery ended up just being one of multiple huge reveals. (At least 3 in that one episode.) So basically in my opinion, what was the point of keeping what Sam was doing secret and not showing his point of view more often, when in the end, the reveal was pretty much a buried lead? I also thought they went a bit over the top with Sam being "mean to Dean," but...

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

What ruined Sam for me was season 5—when he became alternately whiney (complaining about  how no one was forgiving him and blaming others for his choices), self-righteous, and fake-humble (“I’m the least of you...”)  His actions were all over the place, and while I could understand his desire for redemption, his behavior in way too many episodes was completely opposite of what he was saying. 

It seemed to me (and I know MMV) that he was expecting Dean to forgive him automatically and was actually *angry* that he didn’t, and then went on to blame Dean.  He repeatedly said “mea culpa” but got upset when anyone else seemed to blame him.   Honestly?  If I were Dean and Sam had repeatedly lied to me for an entire year, I would have trouble trusting him too, for more than just an episode or two.  But I do have a lot of trust issues myself.  :)

I didn't see season 5 in the same way that you did. I didn't see Sam as being angry with Dean for not forgiving him right away, and for me he actually said multiple times that he understood that Dean had a right to be angry and put up with quite a few digs from Dean with little to no complaint. The exception maybe being some vagueness with the dialogue in "Fallen Idols," though I tend to side with DittyDotDot (?) on this one, in that I agree that the dynamic had to change, and Sam was already trying to do his part in following Dean's lead, now Dean had to stop pulling the "I'm the oldest, and you betrayed me" card when the job and people's lives could be in danger because of it. Once that was done, things got better, and Sam actually I thought became more open with Dean and admitted when he needed help. For example, for me there was no "self-righteousness" or "fake humbleness" in "Free to Be You and Me," "Sam, Interrupted" or "My Bloody Valentine." There was Sam admitting his flaws and owning them. Or "I Believe the Children..." or "The Song Remains the Same" or "Point of No Return" either.

Some may question Sam being the one to put Lucifer back in in "Swan Song," but I was fine with Sam's redemption in season 5.... and he continued to improve in season 6 and 7, too, so I was good.

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I may not like Swan Song but it gave Sam a satisfying (and heroic) resolution (no comment on my Deangirl bitterness here, because it's already been done to death.)  And in season 6, Soulless Sam was also a well-developed (though unlikeable) character.  It seems to me that the reason so many Sam fans think Sam was “ruined” was that he wasn’t always the heroic Sam they wanted.  But he was a well-written, well-acted Sam, and if they spent as much time giving Dean a character arc (even/especially as DemonDean) I would have been very, very happy. 

I would say IMO  the only time they really trashed Sam’s character was season 8, when he was OOC with no extenuating circumstances.  But YMMV.

I disagree. I don't mind Sam not always being "heroic." For me, I get unhappy when Sam is written as out of character and/or thrown under the bus to further some plot or show arc/agenda. And I agree with your season 8 observation. I may have had a few minor issues with season 4 and how Sam was written, but I was okay with what happened in season 5 and with the show in general until season 8.

However, I disagree with you that Dean has not been given a similar character arc. For me, season 2 and 3 was a very detailed Dean character arc. It dealt with Dean dealing with John's decision and the burden that he placed on Dean and the slow evolution as to how even though Dean hated that decision of John's that he eventually decided to actually repeat that decision and why. I would argue that Dean's character arc there was well explored, in that we had "All Hell Breaks Loose, Part 2" to explain Dean's actions, compared to Sam's in season 4 where there were some confusing gaps. Unlike Sam's fairly vague motivation in "Chris Angel..." I thought Dean's was clearly show by "All Hell...". Fans may not have liked Dean's decision, but I thought it was very well explored. And then season 3 took it further in that Dean slowly came to realize how he had come to make that fateful decision and how John's influence had lead him there and to show his anger in understanding how John had screwed him up and how he (Dean) didn't deserve to be in that position. I thought that the character arc was very well done, myself. It was part of the reason season 4 bugged me for Dean as well, because with all the "pile on" they insisted on having, it basically dragged Dean back to square one and erased all of Dean's character stuff from season 2 and 3. So my character complaints with season 4 aren't just restricted to Sam, as I've often complained about the overload on Dean I thought season 4 did. Season 7 did it also, but I thought more subtly and believably (for me) than season 4 did.

I also thought that Dean's emotional reactions were fairly well shown in season 5. Even though it was more of a Sam arc that year, we still understood why Dean was angry and wary. And I even thought that season 7's arc had the potential to lead somewhere potentially interesting until season 8 dropped it.  As for Demon Dean and that character arc, it could have been worse... look at what happened to Sam's character arcs in season 8 (I'm not gonna go there or we'll be here a while) and in season 9: where we went from Sam being understandably worried about his mental health and what was happening to him to being a pissy jerk to "Gadreel is our 'friend.'" I'm still wondering how, with all that was done to Sam in season 9, he still somehow came out looking like the bad guy - that takes some awful character work and or assassination there in my opinion. For me, I would have taken a short to the point character arc like Demon Dean's to just about anything Sam got character-wise in season 8 and 9. Even season 10 Sam's character arc started out interesting but ended up just a big, old, "Sam doesn't listen and screws up again" arc in the end. So I'm not sure which is worse there.

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Mine too. Him going "dark" in Season 4 wasn`t the problem. And really, compared to a lot of other characters in other shows, it wasn`t even that dark. My problem was the botched redemption in Season 5. For me he needed to be redeemed for one thing mainly: hubris. And Season 5 in the end was the antithesis of that. They pretty much zagged every time I wanted them the zig. Especially with the resolution. If I had blamed him for the act of freeing Lucifer, then defeating Lucifer might have been fitting for me. But it wasn`t that, it was the "I`m the one" attitude. So him actually turning out to be "the one" was only aggravating the problem for me. 

I'm my opinion it sounds to me like your idea of Sam's "redemption" for his hubris would have been to either step aside and let Dean save the day or for Sam to "accidentally" defeat Lucifer. In my opinion, except in cliched fiction or rare cases, generally a character has to have some confidence and belief in themselves in order to succeed. And you might not blame Sam for raising Lucifer, but the show did, and kept pointing to Sam's "bad decisions" as the cause, so I found it fitting that Sam was the one to take responsibility and fix it. As for the "I'm the one"  attitude and Sam winning with it and that being aggravating for you, I would argue that the show did almost the very same thing with Dean. In season 9 Dean declared that he was "the one," that he was right to not only save Sam via Gadreel and lie about it, but that he was right to take on the mark of Cain with out consulting anyone else or considering the consequences, too. Dean declared that since he had the power, he was the leader and should make the decisions and everyone else should just shut up about it or leave. Interestingly, most of the arguments I saw from fans at that time agreed with Dean... i.e. that Sam would only be distracting and get in the way. And Dean succeeded in defeating Abbadon and in distracting Metatron and he was right about Gadreel, in that Gadreel redeemed himself. So Dean, too was proven right in his "I'm the one" beliefs by the narrative - in this case in both of his decisions and in his declaring himself "the one." Sam even had to apologize of sorts for questioning Dean's decision to take on the mark. So in my opinion, I would say that the parallels between season 5 and 9 in this regard are pretty close, except that Dean came off looking much better in season 5 than Sam did in season 9 (in my opinion anyway).

So in my opinion, if you question one instance, maybe the other should also question come into question? Otherwise it sounds more like wanting to see humility "redeemed" only when it's associated with the character who is not your favorite. And that's perfectly fine, but should be acknowledged for what it is rather than being called a failing of the narrative to properly redeem the character when it likely wouldn't matter since you don't like the character anyway.

And whereas Sam continued learning and evolving from his hubris in season 6.5 through 7 - and I have cited before the many examples of this - Dean continued to be "right" about his decisions in season 10 and 11 and was never really called out on or learned that any of his decisions weren't right. So I disagree with this:

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

With Dean, I have the opposite problem. I`m pretty sure from the show I should be looking down on him a lot more and liking him a lot less than I do

or, in my opinion, Dean would be being proved wrong a lot more than he is, rather than being proved right even when he does just as questionable things* as others do which generally leads to really bad consequences for those others. And that's not just Sam, but Castiel, and now Crowley and Mary.  Basically, as far as I remember, Dean is the one character who with one somewhat exception** gets to make one-decided, arguably hubris-driven decisions and not have those lead directly to potentially bad consequences for multiple people and/or potentially apocalyptic consequences.

And just because Dean often declares himself "full or crap" and only a "killer" or whatever other things he says he thinks of himself, I am of the opinion that Dean doesn't always believe that either - he's just not as maybe open about it or as called on it as Sam is. I agree that sometimes Sam's declarations of things like "I'm the least of us" might seem insincere, but Dean has his own instances of this. When he took on the mark of Cain, or decided he new best when it came to Gadreel, or when he killed Death, each of those things had to - in my opinion - have some degree of I'm the one to make this decision and am the better one to decide than anyone else. And I'm sure there are plenty of other examples I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. And they do to me show that Dean also has some hubris, too, and the show rewards it at least just as much for Dean as it does other characters.

And I'm also saying that that's not even necessarily a bad thing - at least the rewarding hubris sometimes part - because I like my characters flawed, and in most cases, total humility sounds theoretically admirable, but in my opinion, in practice it would be impractical, potentially annoying*** and would likely get you or someone you loved hurt or dead.

So I don't mind that Sam sometimes doesn't have humility and still wins, because Dean does also - a lot - and sometimes you have to have confidence in yourself to actually win. That's just the way it goes. Your miles may vary.

* I won't bore people with a list, but it would include multiple things and most with little to no consequence for his confidence.

** That one exception is the deal, but since that was mostly pushed onto Sam, in that according to the show, if Sam hadn't made "bad decisions," he could've maybe stopped it, and Sam took the in show blame for that one.

*** I think I remember a conversation that I'm pretty sure that I had with @catrox14 over on TWoP about Dean in season 8. Despite us not agreeing about some things and me being mostly annoyed with how Sam was being written in season 8, we were both annoyed with how Dean was being written also. Because if I remember correctly, we both agreed that someone who just shrugged their shoulders all the time and said "I don't really care, whatever you want" like Dean seemed to be doing in midish season 8 would after a while get really, really annoying and maybe even make you want to boss them around, because they wouldn't stand up for themselves. But I might not be remembering that right. Good gravy how I disliked season 8.

Edited to add: After thinking about it, the above was probably not catrox, since she was still fairly new to the fandom at that time, but I probably would have liked it to have been. ; )

Edited July 2, 2017 by AwesomO4000