“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[MAK]

I didn't mind Dean dying on the job. He went out fighting instead of like falling down the stairs or something. And I don't think it had anything to do with Chuck. The way they presented the whole Hero's Journey, made it seem that Chuck cast a bad luck spell on them like the "good luck" rabbit's foot in S3(?). Otherwise how could they possibly counteract it with help from a pagan god?

That said, 15.20 was executed and written horribly. The only good things were the domestic montage in the beginning and Dean's death scene. The barn scene was good only due to the acting. A lot was ad libbed so no credit to the writers. The whole hunt was kind of dumb. They used a dead man's blood covered bullet for the stupid vamp, but went in with only machetes for the nest? Dean's ninja stars coated in dead man's blood would have been awesome, and right there! And Jenny who? They can bring back the actress (she was in Changing Channels too), but why the character? How many fans remembered her?

Sam's ending was worse than Dean's. As per the montage, he didn't really do anything. No hints of hunting, or being "Chief," or going back to school, or having any kind of career, or any type of family life. And the COVID excuse only goes so far. They could have conveyed any and all of this in a photo montage of stock photos or just stills of Jared, interspersed with the live action with Dean Jr. So Sam basically amounted to a hill of beans without Dean. 

Did Dabb really think he was doing Jared a favor?

So glad the original ending with the Roadhouse party didn't happen. Regardless of what the writers keep trying to say, Dean was not a partying type, except where hooking up with women was concerned. So who was he supposed to be hooking up with in the Heaven party? Jo? Pamela? Or probably for certain fans, Cas? Give me a break, Dean was not shallow.

[Nick24]

23 minutes ago, MAK said:

I didn't mind Dean dying on the job.

I wouldn't have minded that either, if this had meant anything.

23 minutes ago, MAK said:

The only good things were the domestic montage in the beginning and Dean's death scene.

IMO that opening montage was another Dabb's insult to Dean. He made Dean look like an idiot, who could not even make his bed! At the same time Sam/JP was shining.

23 minutes ago, MAK said:

Did Dabb really think he was doing Jared a favor?

IMO Dabb was doing Jared a favor with those montages. He just did not do favors for Sam's character.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

33 minutes ago, MAK said:

 And I don't think it had anything to do with Chuck. The way they presented the whole Hero's Journey, made it seem that Chuck cast a bad luck spell on them like the "good luck" rabbit's foot in S3(?). Otherwise how could they possibly counteract it with help from a pagan god?

Well, because Dabb said so?😂 Or that was another Chuck's trick? As you know, writers lie, don't they? Searching for logic in Dabb's seasons can really cause a brain damage.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

32 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

IMO that opening montage was another Dabb's insult to Dean.

He may have meant it as an insult, but, for me, it didn't come off that way at all.

IMO, the montage showed that they had a routine. Sure, Dean got up later than Sam, but they each had their chores (breakfast, dishes, laundry, weapon maintenance) that they kind of set for themselves to complete by 10ish (they show Dean looking at the clock) before searching for jobs or just chilling. The unmade bed, to me, showed that there was nothing they "had" to do, only what they wanted. 

39 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Dabb was doing Jared a favor with those montages. He just did not do favors for Sam's character.

Well, if the favor for Jared was to have Sam be the "winner" at life, it kind of fell flat. 

30 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Searching for logic in Dabb's seasons can really cause a brain damage.

Dabb didn't have any logic or continuity in the the last few seasons. Anything that can be explained without causing brain damage was by accident, and probably acting choices. Dabb probably wanted the Winchesters, especially Dean to be nothings if not for Chuck. Unfortunately for him, it didn't present that way, at least for me, and I didn't even have to twist myself into knots, because I never bought in to the Chuck thing. Chuck's whole complaint was that they kept going off script, so where was the control?

[7kstar]

10 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I've read some of those posts here. That's really funny. When the writers were doing something to Sam, those fans jumped on ''This is Sam's character assassination. Carver and Glass hate Sam, etc.'' train. But when the writers were doing something to Dean, those same fans were ''This is all Dean. The writers are blameless''. 

Totally true.  Outside of this forum, they get even crazier.  What's really sad what they think was great stuff for Sam really started to make me dislike him.  In real life I'd take a Dean over a Sam any day.  LOL

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

What's really sad what they think was great stuff for Sam really started to make me dislike him.  

Very true! Most of Sam fans favorite seasons/episodes made me really dislike the character. I didn't want to hate Sam, btw. This is very hard to watch the show, when you cannot stand one of the main characters. But I would never watch SPN if Sam were the only main character.

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

In real life I'd take a Dean over a Sam any day.  LOL

Co-signing! I understand, that Dean isn't perfect. No one is. But I really respect him as a person. Anyway, he is my all time favorite fictional character. We're all lucky, that Jensen is a very strong actor and capable of overcoming even horrible writing.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

I didn't want to hate Sam, btw. This is very hard to watch the show, when you cannot stand one of the main characters. I would never watch SPN if Sam were the only main character.

I was lukewarm on Sam from the pilot ep when he didn't deny it when Dean pointed out that he wouldn't have picked up if he had called and was callous about their mother being dead on the bridge (ironic considering how he lashed out at Dean in season 13 for not having as many memories of her) which didn't make me see him in the best light. Later when he disregarded Dean's comment about his grief over their mother's death because Sam's mourning of Jess was recent and therefore was more relevant made me begin to dislike him. Season 4 and beyond made me wash my hands of him totally save for a few moments here when Sam wasn't a total asshole.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I was lukewarm on Sam from the pilot ep when he didn't deny it when Dean pointed out that he wouldn't have picked up if he had called and was callous about their mother being dead on the bridge (ironic considering how he lashed out at Dean in season 13 for not having as many memories of her) which didn't make me see him in the best light. Later when he disregarded Dean's comment about his grief over their mother's death because Sam's mourning of Jess was recent and therefore was more relevant made me begin to dislike him. Season 4 and beyond made me wash my hands of him totally save for a few moments here when Sam wasn't a total asshole.

I tried to stop myself from disliking Sam in S1-3 and to find some reasons, why he was behaving that way, because, well, siblings don't always get along. I didn't mind some of their conflicts back then. Dean and Sam are different people, anyway. I didn't like Sam's comments about Dean's grief over Mary in S1 either. But many people in real life also cannot feel for their relatives. But at the same time they can feel for some strangers. That was exactly Sam. I hoped that he would learn to feel for Dean spending more time with him. I thought they just needed to get to know each other better. Unfortunately, never happened. 

I wasn't on my ''I hate Sam'' train in Season 4 either. Of course, Sam was hard to watch back then and his attitudes toward Dean were awful. But I just like S4 too much (with few exceptions) to let Sam ruin it and I was also hoping, that demon blood arc would lead to Sam's character growth. But as I've said many times before, Fallen Idols came along and I was like ''Well, I've tried, but now I'm done with Sam, because apparently the writers will never let him grow up''. Then Defending Your Life brought me onto new level. But then....well, we all know, what came next, don't we?

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

 (ironic considering how he lashed out at Dean in season 13 for not having as many memories of her) 

Do you mean 13.04? Oh, I have no idea what Sam was talking about. Not really. He was delusional. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I was lukewarm on Sam from the pilot ep when he didn't deny it when Dean pointed out that he wouldn't have picked up if he had called and was callous about their mother being dead on the bridge (ironic considering how he lashed out at Dean in season 13 for not having as many memories of her) which didn't make me see him in the best light. Later when he disregarded Dean's comment about his grief over their mother's death because Sam's mourning of Jess was recent and therefore was more relevant made me begin to dislike him

But Sam has a point.  His feelings were rawer, more to the surface.  Dean had learned for 22 years to live with their mother’s death.  Sam had a few months, at that point.

His statement doesn’t invalidate Dean’s feelings of loss by any means.  It’s just where they are in the grieving process is so far away situationally.

You also have to remember they’re male siblings.  Siblings will do anything to hurt one another, when they’re in an emotional state.

 I was lukewarm on Sam the entire series, except when I disliked him immensely during S6 and parts of S9, end of S10.  There were times I disliked Dean.  Early seasons his crass remarks abt females.  When he killed Cyrus Styne, when he pulled a gun on Sam in S15 (of course I hated how the writers destroyed Dean’s character for most of S15), his manipulation of Sam & continuous lies abt it, beginning of S9 - tho I understand his motivation.

But I love the relationship, so I accept  both, and try to see both sides of views.

Edited June 27, 2022 by roamyn

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

But Sam has a point.  His feelings were rawer, more to the surface.  Dean had learned for 22 years to live with their mother’s death.  Sam had a few months, at that point.

His statement doesn’t invalidate Dean’s feelings of loss by any means.  It’s just where they are in the grieving process is so far away situationally.

You also have to remember they’re male siblings.  Siblings will do anything to hurt one another, when they’re in an emotional state.

That doesn’t make it ok. Being male and freshly grieving doesn’t give you a pass to be deliberately hurtful. I have brothers. They wouldn’t treat each other that way.

[Nick24]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That doesn’t make it ok. Being male and freshly grieving doesn’t give you a pass to be deliberately hurtful. I have brothers. They wouldn’t treat each other that way.

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

His statement doesn’t invalidate Dean’s feelings of loss by any means.  .

The problem was also the way Jared delivered those lines. Too much anger.

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

There were times I disliked Dean. When he killed Cyrus Styne

Dean had the MoC in 10.22 and he definitely had no reasons to trust Cyrus. They were about to burn the bunker. Thanks to Sam and Castiel Dean was in a very bad mental state to feel for Cyrus.

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

his manipulation of Sam & continuous lies abt it, beginning of S9 - tho I understand his motivation.

I never saw any manipulation in there. Manipulations are Sam's and Castiel's things to do. Dean was doing exactly what Sam wanted in 8.23 and in 9.01. Sam wanted to live. Dean gave him that chance. 

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

when he pulled a gun on Sam in S15 (of course I hated how the writers destroyed Dean’s character for most of S15)

IMO They didn't succeed in destroying Dean. They were trying very hard, but ultimately they failed. At least for me. I was very pleased with everything Dean told Castiel in 15.03, because that was the truth. I was happy with Dean's ''Jack's not family''**, because that was the truth again. 

**At this point I was thinking ''Dean, unfortunately, you have no family at all. Probably never had, because your ''family'' had been always choosing someone else over you''. 

As for Dean/Sam fight in 15.17, Sam was manipulating Dean using Dean's weakest spots (John, protecting Sam), that was a new low for Sam. Btw, Billie's plan was pretty good, whereas Sam's reasoning was stupid. Also, they all were OK with sacrificing Dean with that bomb in 11.23, but all of a sudden neither Sam nor Castiel could let Jack do the same. So, apparently according to Sam and Castiel Jack's life was much more valuable than Dean's.

Dabb and Berens with all that Dean Hate Fest made me feel for Dean even more (thanks to Jensen and his acting, of course), also they made me dislike Sam much more and they made me totally loathe the character of Castiel. 

[roamyn]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

The problem was also the way Jared delivered those lines. Too much anger.

OK, I can give you that.  But that’s not on Jared.  That’s on the director, who told him to play it that way.

Quote

 I never saw any manipulation in there.  Manipulations are Sam’s and Castiel’s things to do. 

That was pure manipulation.  Sam wanted to die in 9.01.  He specifically told Death not to let anything or anyone bring him back.  Dean had Gadreel disguise himself as Dean to get Sam to change his mind.  “There is no me if there is no you.”  That’s almost telling Sam that he’d rather die than be w/o his brother.

[roamyn]

6 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

That doesn’t make it ok. Being male and freshly grieving doesn’t give you a pass to be deliberately hurtful. I have brothers. They wouldn’t treat each other that way.

Well you’re lucky.  I know many siblings who treat each other with hurtful things when their life is going through a rough patch.

Plus I’m assuming you’re female.  Brothers wouldn’t say anything to hurt a sister, but sisters can be REAL mean, and so can brothers to each other.  I have three brothers and one sister.  I hated my sister as a teen/young adult for her life choices, and the two oldest boys were constantly ripping each other.  Now, we’re fairly close, but we’re also middle aged.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, roamyn said:

That was pure manipulation.  Sam wanted to die in 9.01.  He specifically told Death not to let anything or anyone bring him back.  Dean had Gadreel disguise himself as Dean to get Sam to change his mind.  “There is no me if there is no you.”  That’s almost telling Sam that he’d rather die than be w/o his brother.

I still don't buy this. I say anything that happened prior to Gadreel entering his head was unknown to Dean. How could he possibly know that Sam wanted to die? Especially given that the whole reason Dean acquiesced to Sam doing the trials in the first place was that Sam 'saw the light' and wanted to live, as opposed to what he considered Dean's death wish (or at least disregard for his own life).

This has always been my beef with the whole story line. Dean saved Sam's life because that's what Dean does, and Sam would've done the same thing.  Dean's only mistake - and granted it was a doozy - was in not telling Sam what he'd done as soon as he was awake and able to hear him. Then, if Sam chose to eject Gadreel and die, it was his choice to make. Somehow I don't think he would have though.

ETA: Dean may have pleaded with, even coerced Sam into stopping the trial, but the bottom line is, SAM made his decision to live, and that's the last thing Dean knew. Sam thing in Sam's coma-state. He didn't know what Dean/Gadreel were going to do, only that there was a plan, and he consented to it. Blaming Dean for 'talking him into' either of those things is a weakass, lame excuse.

Edited June 27, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

Sorry, hit post instead of edit. Nothing to see here.

Edited June 27, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How could he possibly know that Sam wanted to die?

Because Gadreel let Dean see what Sam was doing. Dean saw Sam tell Death that he would agree to go with him if his death was final and he could never be brought back. That was why Dean was so desperate to let Gadreel possess Sam. And Sam  saying yes to Dean didn't mean he "wanted" to die and Dean tricked him. It was that Sam would have rather died than be possessed by an angel or  if being saved resulted in more innocent lives being taken (which in Sam's case was almost always the case). 

As Dean said Sam would never say yes to possession. So he had to trick Sam into saying yes to Gadreel (or Ezekiel cool guy according to Cas) in order to save Sam's life.

[Nick24]

36 minutes ago, roamyn said:

OK, I can give you that.  But that’s not on Jared.  That’s on the director, who told him to play it that way.

IMO That's on Jared. He had been always adding too much anger and smugness. Just look at Sam's huge bitchface at the end of 8.05 Blood Brother. This episode was written by one of their best writers Ben Edlund and directed by a very good director Guy Norman Bee. I cannot believe that Edlund wrote ''And here Sam turns on his Bitchface No.18''. 

As @Aeryn13 has said, at the end of 9.13 Sam looked like he was having an orgasm. Directed by Phil Sgriccia  - one of their best directors.

As for Gadreel business, I agree with @gonzosgirrl points. I just want to add, that if Sam wanted to die so badly, he could have found a demon and completed the 3rd trial.  

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Because Gadreel let Dean see what Sam was doing. Dean saw Sam tell Death that he would agree to go with him if his death was final and he could never be brought back. That was why Dean was so desperate to let Gadreel possess Sam. And Sam  saying yes to Dean didn't mean he "wanted" to die and Dean tricked him. It was that Sam would have rather died than be possessed by an angel or  if being saved resulted in more innocent lives being taken (which in Sam's case was almost always the case). 

As Dean said Sam would never say yes to possession. So he had to trick Sam into saying yes to Gadreel (or Ezekiel cool guy according to Cas) in order to save Sam's life.

I still say the last thing conscious thing Sam did was choose to live, and that added to the fact of how he convinced Dean to let him do the trials in the first place, mitigated Dean's decision. Even in Sam's coma/dream, he never said anything about possession (or saving innocent lives that I recall, but not 100% on that). I don't dispute that Dean knew *Sam wouldn't want to be possessed again, but there was literally no other option at the time and Sam DID choose to live. Like I said above, Dean should have told him as soon as he woke up, and that he is guilty of. But I seriously doubt that conscious Sam would have decided to evict Gadreel and die, especially given Castiel's assurance that this was a 'good angel'.

*Even at that, there's a difference in being possessed by a demon bitch, or the literal Devil, than being possessed by an angel with good intentions (the information that Dean had to go by). Rational, conscious Sam would have had the same information and made a different choice. IMO.

And Gadreel was a 'good angel' up until the time Metadouche got his hooks in.  Yes, he killed Kevin after that, but prior to that he saved Charlie - maybe Dean should've told Sam about that. And Sam would've been dead again in Devil May Care if not for Gadreel

Edited June 27, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

If Sam really wanted to die, all he had to do was say no, I've made up my mind.  He certainly had no trouble doing what he wanted to do, no matter what Dean asked (or begged) before; in fact, that was one of the things that annoyed me the most about Sam--when he felt that he was right, he wouldn't listen to anyone else's opinions or pleas or suggestions, but went ahead his own way either directly or sneaking around to do it.  So the fact that he *did* agree that he wanted to live shows that he wasn't so damn sure about dying.  

Also, nobody seems to point out that, by saying yes, he was also agreeing to *not* close the gates of hell (which, BTW, it turned out would have been a pretty Bad Thing to Do, judging by what happened when the gates of heaven were closed.)  But that decision was all on Sam.

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, Nick24 said:

The problem was also the way Jared delivered those lines. Too much anger.

2 hours ago, roamyn said:

OK, I can give you that.  But that’s not on Jared.  That’s on the director, who told him to play it that way.

As a director of middle school kids, I can tell you no, it's no Jared.  Jared's acting in the beginning was just plain bad.  I know the training he received in high school because I do know the style.  Had Jared been a stronger actor, he would have layered it.  Gone in several directions. 

I always told the kids, acting is a partnership between actors and director.  Yes, there will be sometimes when you have to do something because it is what is best for the scene, but your job is find the voice. 

Also, instead of saying I'm mad, which isn't what real people do.  You try to hide that your angry until it just happens.  There is so many ways to show anger.  Sometimes a soft voice can be so much scarier than a shout.

Jared's acting at the beginning took me out of the story more than I wanted.  But he did start to grow and Manner's really helped him with his choices.

Had Jenson been at the same level, the show wouldn't have made it pass the first season.  I started watching for Jensen. 

Now Jared can do some things really well even in season 1.  But Jensen took a character that people could hate and add depth to him.  Had Jared been able to do the same, those lines that made me dislike him would have made me pause. 

For me, it is training.  Jensen naturally does Meisner Technique.  I think Jared gets in his head and thinks he's doing something he isn't. 

One game as a director, I used to play was can I take a child that can't act and make them an actor/actress in 3 years?  Then it was can I do in a year, and one I did in 6 months because he took the coaching.  By the way it was Shakespeare.  They were shocked by the results.  So If I can get kids to do it, imagine what adults could do???

So the director may have asked something but in the end the actor has to deliver.  Don't know how many times I had an actor give me what they thought I wanted, and it was off the mark. 

But I will give Jared this, when it's really awful writing, everyone struggles to overcome and sometimes you just can't.  So that is why I go back to the writing.  The crap they wrote made it all worse and that's why I got bored of Sam.  It's also why 15 isn't a season I will remember other than Christian Kane singing with Jensen.  I loved there voices together and wished they had done more together over the years. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

Well you’re lucky.  I know many siblings who treat each other with hurtful things when their life is going through a rough patch.

Plus I’m assuming you’re female.  Brothers wouldn’t say anything to hurt a sister, but sisters can be REAL mean, and so can brothers to each other.  I have three brothers and one sister.  I hated my sister as a teen/young adult for her life choices, and the two oldest boys were constantly ripping each other.  Now, we’re fairly close, but we’re also middle aged.

My "luckiness" isn't rare amongst siblings, I'm sure.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, he killed Kevin after that, but prior to that he saved Charlie - maybe Dean should've told Sam about that. And Sam would've been dead again in Devil May Care if not for Gadreel

Not to mention he saved Castiel's life also after the reaper killed him.

[Nick24]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Gadreel was a 'good angel' up until the time Metadouche got his hooks in.  Yes, he killed Kevin after that, but prior to that he saved Charlie - maybe Dean should've told Sam about that. And Sam would've been dead again in Devil May Care if not for Gadreel

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Not to mention he saved Castiel's life also after the reaper killed him.

Not to mention SAM called Gadreel a real friend in 9.23. /head desk

[BabySpinach]

22 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Not to mention SAM called Gadreel a real friend in 9.23. /head desk

While in the same breath blaming DEAN for Kevin's death! *has a stroke*

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, BabySpinach said:

While in the same breath blaming DEAN for Kevin's death! *has a stroke*

On the bolded part. I guess we all are some kind of masochists, because a lot of things on SPN can cause a stroke, heart attack or brain damage.

[Casseiopeia]

Quote

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I still say the last thing conscious thing Sam did was choose to live,

Yes he did. That was the point I was making. Sam didn't want to die. When it looked like he was going to die he wanted to make sure that he could never be brought back. No one could ever be hurt again because of him. That was why Dean made the deal with Gadreel. He knew Sam would never agree to it and he knew that Sam was going to die if he didn't trick Sam into being possessed. And honestly there wasn't much time to sit down and have a conversation about it. Dean needed to get it done or his brother was going to die.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean should have told him as soon as he woke up,

Dean couldn't tell Sam. Gadreel told Dean that Sam could eject him and if he did Sam would die. Pretty much Gadreel was holding both Sam and Dean hostage. He was hiding out in Sam and making sure that Dean didn't let on.  I think in the beginning he was really trying to do the right thing. He wanted to be the good guy. But he was afraid of the other angels. He was "despised" in heaven for letting Lucifer in the Garden.  That is what Metatron tapped into. He promised that Gadreel would be the hero for helping to send the angels back to heaven. More than anything Gadreel wanted redemption.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam would've been dead again in Devil May Care if not for Gadreel

Yes and that was Sam's point. He would have rather died than have  Kevin be killed.  Sam didn't get to be aware of the possession until Gadreel was expelled. So to Sam it all happened in the few minutes when he remembered everything that happened from being in the hospital to killing Kevin. And yes just as much as Dean would have been tables turned Sam was pissed.

In the end Gadreel had the most thorough story arc of S9. He went from being arrogant and only thinking of his own glory to sacrificing himself for Gods creation. 

As far as the rift between the brothers it was pretty much a kitten fight. They hardly ever separated and were pretty much the same as always until the MOC started to take over Dean.

[Nick24]

After all those 15.20 discussions about dying/living I've probably found my bottom line. I don't see any point in ''one of them dying and one of them continuing to live''. We'd seen that many times. Too many. They should have either killed both of them together or let both of them live.

[MAK]

4 hours ago, Nick24 said:

They should have either killed both of them together or let both of them live.

Either one would have been my ideal ending.

To quote Sam (something I don't do often) "If we die? Then we'll do that together too."

Edited June 28, 2022 by MAK
Clarity

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

After all those 15.20 discussions about dying/living I've probably found my bottom line. I don't see any point in ''one of them dying and one of them continuing to live''. We'd seen that many times. Too many. They should have either killed both of them together or let both of them live.

I used to think that I would have been ok with both of them dying, but tbh, I think they both should have lived and continued hunting(or just let Sam have the normal life since he was the one who was more back and forth regarding it) just to prove that their skills were not in any way Chuck's doing because he was apparently the "writer"of their "story".

I hated that with the fire of ten thousand suns and will never ever forgive or forget what Andre Badd tried to do with that garbage that he tried to pass off as writing. 

So, for me, they need to come back from the dead just to negate that Badd crap-even if it's just for a limited time/series.

And I think Jensen feels the same way,  even if JP doesn't-not that he would turn it down if offered, of course-but he was the one who "loved" that ending unequivocally from the beginning and even when/while it just didn't sit right with Jensen, his longtime co-star and supposed "brother" in RL too as far as this show was concerned. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Myrelle

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I used to think that I would have been ok with both ofcthem dying, but tbh, I think they both should have lived and continued hunting(or just let Sam have the normal life since he was the one who was more back and forth regarding it) just to prove that their skills were not in any way Chuck's doing because he was apparently the "writer"of their "story".

I just meant, that if those ''writers'' wanted to kill someone so badly, they should have killed them both together. But, of course, that was just another insult to Dean/Jensen.

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I hated that with the fire of ten thousand suns and will never ever forgive or forget what Andre Badd tried to do with that garbage that he tried to pass off as writing. 

Ditto. Did Dabb and Co. even realize how stupid that ''Chuck's story'', ''Writers lie'' sounded? Did they realize that it was destroying the whole series? Or maybe that was some kind of Dabb's revenge for all those complaints about retcons and canon assassination in S12-14. 

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So, for me, they need to come back from the dead just to negate that Badd crap-even if it's just for a limited time/series.

I'm all into that! The Dabb era should be destroyed at any cost!

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I think Jensen feels the same way,  even if JP doesn't-not that he would turn it down if offered, of course-but he was the one who "loved" that ending unequivocally from the beginning and even when/while it just didn't sit right with Jensen, his longtime co-star and supposed "brother" in RL too as far as this show was concerned. 

Well, don't get me wrong, but after reading about what was happening before and during S15, let's say, I got very disappointed in Jared and Misha.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Well, don't get me wrong, but after reading about what was happening before and during S15, let's say, I got very disappointed in Jared and Misha.

I've been disappointed in them both since Jared began to act like Sam in real life and Misha egged on his fans to embrace their rabid Destiel worship and harass Jensen in the process. By season 15 I wasn't even surprised anymore. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by DeeDee79

[Nick24]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I've been disappointed in them both since Jared began to act like Sam in real life 

From what I've seen Jared and Sam are very much alike!

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I've been disappointed in them both since Jared began to act like Sam in real life and Misha egged on his fans to embrace their rabid Destiel worship and harass Jensen in the process. 

That's just awful!

[Nick24]

Well, I’ve written a lot of criticism about Sam and Castiel. But there were some moments, when I didn’t like Dean’s actions, but anyway I understood his reasoning. That’s my list:

1) Dean selling his soul in 2.22. I was yelling ‘’Dean, what are you doing??!! Sam isn’t worthy of your soul!!’’. I do understand why he did that. But I can’t see anything romantic or beautiful unlike some other viewers. I can only see, how little Dean was thinking about himself and how messed up his psyche was back then.

2) Every time Dean was apologizing to Sam, Castiel, Resurrected Mary or anyone else for his own feelings/emotions. At some moment I was thinking ‘’Well, at least he hasn't fallen on his knees and he hasn't kissed their feet yet. That's a win with these writers!’’. And then he did actually fall on his knees in 15.09…./many many strokes/. I know that all of it was because of Dean’s self-worth issues, but I just wanted him to move on from it so badly.

3) Ditching Benny in 8.10.

4) Staying with Sam after 9.13.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

4) Staying with Sam after 9.13.

Also 4.21, 5.5, 6.5, (if being possessed during 8.6 wasn't an excuse according to Sam neither is being soulless) 7.6, 8.1, through 8.11, 9.10 and beyond. IMHO.

Edited June 29, 2022 by DeeDee79

[Nick24]

16 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also 4.21, 5.5, 6.5, 7.6, 8.6, 8.9, 8.10, 9.10 and beyond. IMHO.

IA. Let's add then 4.14, 5.18, 7.13, 9.12, 9.14 and the others in S12-15, etc. 

The Purge was just the worst. 

ETA: 1.10 then too

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

It seems like we've had only 2 times, when Dean left Sam - 10.01-10.02 and 10.22-10.23. So apparently in order to ditch Sam Dean needed to either be turned into his worst nightmare or be under the MoC influence. That's really sad.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

It seems like we've had only 2 times, when Dean left Sam - 10.01-10.02 and 10.22-10.23. So apparently in order to ditch Sam Dean needed to either be turned into his worst nightmare or be under the MoC influence. That's really sad.

He also left Sam in the beginning of S5, or at least didn't argue about Sam leaving. Even after Sam called him, Dean said "pick a hemisphere'. This time it took seeing a potential apocalypse to get them back together, not keep them apart. 

Way back in the beginning, Dean left Sam on the side of the road and was willing to be alone again. It was Sam who changed his mind and came back (Scarecrow). 

Edited June 29, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He also left Sam in the beginning of S5, or at least didn't argue about Sam leaving. Even after Sam called him, Dean said "pick a hemisphere'. This time it took seeing a potential apocalypse to get them back together, not keep them apart. 

IA. But it kinda felt like another ''Dean needed to learn a valuable lesson how wrong he was''. And eventually them being together meant nothing. Sam's army man had saved the world. Sam should have just taken it out of the Impala and gone right after Lucifer.

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Way back in the beginning, Dean left Sam on the side of the road and was willing to be alone again. It was Sam who changed his mind and came back (Scarecrow). 

Oh, I wasn't talking about Dean being or not being alone. That's another story. Being alone had never been Dean's issue. The Purge can go to Hell. So can Sam. Dean was doing on his own just fine. 

I was talking about Sam's disgusting attitudes toward Dean in many episodes and the fact that Dean continued to stay with him after all that crap.

[ahrtee]

Personally, I think my final straw was Fallen Idols.  I really, *really* wanted Dean to punch Sam out and then stalk off, saying, "I'm out of here.  Time for you to grow up."

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

IA. But it kinda felt like another ''Dean needed to learn a valuable lesson how wrong he was''. And eventually them being together meant nothing. Sam's army man had saved the world. Sam should have just taken it out of the Impala and gone right after Lucifer.

I never saw it that way. I watched unspoiled and was actually surprised at some of the fandom takes on things once I caught up and went online (mid season ten). To me it meant that Dean knew Sam couldn't be left alone, wouldn't be strong enough to resist Lucifer without him. Sure, 'we keep each other human'  meant him, too, seeing what he became after five years of Croats and his brother going darkside. But for him, it was humanity. For Sam it was literal.

Same with the army man. I never attached this negative connotation to it and was surprised by that take. It triggered memories that let Sam gain control for a moment, to hear and see Dean. I'm aware that's an unpopular take, but watching it without any other input,  that's how I saw it. 

[Nick24]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:56 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

 Same with the army man. I never attached this negative connotation to it and was surprised by that take. It triggered memories that let Sam gain control for a moment, to hear and see Dean. I'm aware that's an unpopular take, but watching it without any other input,  that's how I saw it. 

I watched unspoiled too and I started to dislike 5.22 right after watching it. For many reasons, actually.

1) Throwing Dean out of his mytharc. Destroying the whole point of S4 and most of S5 by throwing out of the window everything about ''The Righteous Man'', ''True Servant of Heaven''. I had been waiting for some pay-off, but all set-ups were ruined. 

2) Annoying Chuck. I dislike meta and it seems like he was the writer's mouthpiece. 

3) Sam needed to drink that demon blood again. It felt like they were trying to whitewash that addiction.

4) All those demons in Sam's life. I mean that scene with Samifer. We'd never seen any of them before. 

5) Killing Castiel and Bobby only to bring them back in few minutes. 

6) Dean was right in front of Sam. But that was not enough. Sam needed something else to trigger his memories about Dean. 

But we all have our own perception. 

ETA: This is really interesting, that we all see the same things in very different ways. 

ETA2: About No. 6. Well, I've rewatched that scene. Thank you, @gonzosgirrl, now I'm convinced, that there was nothing insulting and that it was logical :)

Edited June 30, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sure, 'we keep each other human'  meant him, too, seeing what he became after five years of Croats and his brother going darkside. But for him, it was humanity. For Sam it was literal.

Interesting take! Actually, I agree with opinions, that 5.04 was some kind of AU or Zachariah's thing, not the real future. This is pretty hard to believe, that our!Dean would become so violent. Dean had been able to keep his humanity after 40 years in Hell without Sam's (or anyone's) help. Apparently Dean's soul was much more valuable than some people thought.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Some thoughts about Dean’s demon deal. In 2.22 Dean gave up on his soul! It was not just his life. That was his SOUL! *shouting* That was huge!
Dean considered Sam’s life more valuable than his own soul and he was willing to accept eternal suffering in Hell. It means that Dean had so deep self-worth issues back in S2. Probably that was the moment, when Dean's ability to think about himself at least a little finally ceased to exist.
Actually, I was OK with Dean facing the consequences of his own actions and taking responsibility. I respect that. I just wanted that deal and Dean’s time in Hell to mean something in the end. I thought they were on the right path in Season 4. I was thrilled with ‘’The Righteous Man” thing and then with ‘’True Servant of Heaven’’, because that was very true. But then…well, I ended up very disappointed. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, Nick24 said:

6) Dean was right in front of Sam. But that was not enough. Sam needed something else to trigger his memories about Dean. 

But all baggage aside, Sam was possessed by the literal devil, an archangel. Regular people with amnesia or memory issues can hate/be afraid of people they love more than life, but are triggered back to reality by a smell or a sound - so the army man triggering these memories in Sam didn't seem 'insulting' to Dean to me.  Believe me, I get the issues of Jensen/Dean being screwed out of his story lines, but this? Seemed logical and interesting to me.

[Nick24]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But all baggage aside, Sam was possessed by the literal devil, an archangel. Regular people with amnesia or memory issues can hate/be afraid of people they love more than life, but are triggered back to reality by a smell or a sound - so the army man triggering these memories in Sam didn't seem 'insulting' to Dean to me.  Believe me, I get the issues of Jensen/Dean being screwed out of his story lines, but this? Seemed logical and interesting to me.

I guess I need to rewatch this. My 1st time was too effected by my negative attitudes toward Sam after 5.05, 5.16 and my general disappointment in S5 since 5.18. But thank you for your ideas!

ETA: Probably sometimes I'm too harsh on Sam and the writers.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

ETA: Probably sometimes I'm too harsh on Sam and the writers.

Probably not ;)

Dean was almost always able to overcome outside influences/compulsions and stop himself from harming those he loved, where Sam... didn't. But not everyone can be Dean Winchester ;)

I say almost, because Dean probably would've shot Sam in 8.06 if not for Garth, but that was the exception, not the rule.

Edited June 29, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Nick24]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean was almost always able to overcome outside influences/compulsions and stop himself from harming those he loved, where Sam... didn't. 

Absolutely agreed!! I was so proud of Dean when he was able to resist Michael and make him leave in S14! And then Dean was holding that very powerful archangel in his head for some time! 

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But not everyone can be Dean Winchester ;)

IMO No one can :) Dean Winchester is a unique person! 

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I say almost, because Dean probably would've shot Sam in 8.06 if not for Garth, but that was the exception, not the rule.

I was begging Dean to shoot him!

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But all baggage aside, Sam was possessed by the literal devil, an archangel. Regular people with amnesia or memory issues can hate/be afraid of people they love more than life, but are triggered back to reality by a smell or a sound - so the army man triggering these memories in Sam didn't seem 'insulting' to Dean to me.  Believe me, I get the issues of Jensen/Dean being screwed out of his story lines, but this? Seemed logical and interesting to me.

I've always felt the same way about that scene - which was the writer's intent, IMO. But I also was really pissed that the writers spent all of S4 setting Dean up as the Righteous Man - presumably to be the only one to save the world, but wait, it's Sam!! I also believe that Kripke's original intended ending was both the boys being possessed by their respective archangels, overcoming them with love for one another, and jumping into the cage to save the world and humankind. Considering how this series turned out, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. However, we would have missed fabulous scenes from Jensen - ten years of them! 🙁

[Nick24]

31 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I've always felt the same way about that scene - which was the writer's intent, IMO. But I also was really pissed that the writers spent all of S4 setting Dean up as the Righteous Man - presumably to be the only one to save the world, but wait, it's Sam!!

Salt on wounds :( 

31 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

 I also believe that Kripke's original intended ending was both the boys being possessed by their respective archangels, overcoming them with love for one another, and jumping into the cage to save the world and humankind. Considering how this series turned out, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. However, we would have missed fabulous scenes from Jensen - ten years of them! 🙁

IMO They could have thrown them into the Cage in 5.22 and still made Season 6. Chuck could have brought them back because of their sacrifice. Or Castiel could have. And even in this case Sera could create her Soulless Sam SL, if she wanted that so badly. 

For example, Castiel is trying to get Dean and Sam out of the Cage, but he doesn't have enough powers. As a result, Sam's soul is stuck in the Cage, but Dean is back with his soul. They also could've done something to Dean too. Maybe, his 40 years in Hell + his time in the Cage == HUGE PTSD, where Dean really needs to restore his humanity and learn to be a human again.

So, Sam has his soulless SL, Dean has his post-Hell SL, Castiel has his Rafael thing and also he's trying to help the boys, Crowley can have his Purgatory business too. Everyone has his own storyline, all kind of fans are happy. It's not that hard, actually.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

12 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

So, Sam has his soulless SL, Dean has his post-Hell SL, Castiel has his Rafael thing and also he's trying to help the boys, Crowley can have his Purgatory business too. Everyone has his own storyline, all kind of fans are happy. It's not that hard, actually.

Apparently with the writers and showrunner we had at the time, it was! Sera was obsessed with Sam (Jared?) and wanted everything to revolve around him. The soulless storyline was supposed to last the entire season, but maybe someone (Kripke?) shortened it to a half-season. Then in S7, her intent was to kill off Cas for good - no resurrection. That way, Sam could be even more of the focus. I don't think she disliked Dean/Jensen, she just didn't care about him or his story. That's pretty sad for a showrunner, but as we know it can get a helluva lot worse!!!