“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Nick24]

Thanks everyone for the conversation. My apologies if I was being rude or too emotional in my statements. Sometimes I can go too far😊

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

But instead he was just used as a wedge between the brothers that made zero sense.

One could argue that Ruby served the same purpose. Even before Sam and the demon blood he was willing to listen to a demon when she appeared in season 3 when neither brother had any reason to trust them.

And let's not forget Amy Pond who was also brought out of Sam's history as a beloved friend that had never been mentioned but drove a wedge between the brothers just the same.

Edited May 30, 2022 by DeeDee79

[roamyn]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:53 AM, MAK said:

Every time Sam left Dean, Dean continued to be Dean, saving people hunting things. Some might say that is stagnation, but IMO, it shows that Dean knew, understood, and accepted himself. That is maturity. He even accepted that just because it's supernatural,  it doesn't mean that it is evil (Garth, Lenore, Benny, even Cas). That is growth.

Not to nitpick, but Dean didn’t hunt in the year aft ‘Swan Song’.

Only aft he got poisoned by the Jin and started seeing things, did he think abt hunting, and that was more to keep his family safe.

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Not to nitpick, but Dean didn’t hunt in the year aft ‘Swan Song’.

Only aft he got poisoned by the Jin and started seeing things, did he think abt hunting, and that was more to keep his family safe.

Also not to nitpick (because you're technically correct), but the reason he didn't hunt was because he'd promised Sam to live the apple-pie life that *Sam* had wanted, and was trying his damnedest.  He also kept looking for a way to get Sam out of the cage, and even if he didn't actively search out hunts, he didn't ignore anything strange that he came across.  

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Crowley always had his own agenda. That was the only part of MOC Dean story that bothered me. Dean goes on a quest to kill Gadreel and then suddenly trusts Crowley (who had just recently killed Sarah and almost killed Jody). It didn't gel all that well, at least for me.

I thought I would take this to the Dean Winchester thread to discuss a little more!

[MAK]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:38 PM, Casseiopeia said:

For Dean family was everything and he needed his family.

I would like to add that Dean *wanted* his family, mored than needing them. He functioned without them.

He lived his whole life with loss, and nothing permanent. He wanted to keep his family close and safe.

[MAK]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Apparently, per those that saw her panel at Purcon this weekend, Sam Smith (Mary) said that the "I never was"...line from Dean to Mary in 12.14 during their argument about Mary's mother role...was an Ad-lib by Jensen

This is what I was talking about before.

Jensen tweeked the writing for Dean multiple times because he didn't think the writers got Dean.

We don't hear about Jared doing that for Sam., as often. For instance, he could have changed the questions to Chuck dialogue.

[MAK]

17 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, we can say that Azazel business was pointless and some kinda backup plan. At the same time Heaven had prepared both Sam and Dean to be the vessels*. And that was just happy coincidence that Azazel had chosen already chosen one😁

I think this has more to do with the fact that Kripke was making things up as he went along. He kind of planned a show ending for every season up to S4, in case they weren't renewed. In his own words, he only came up with angels and Heaven at the end of S3 because of the writers' strike.

IMO, at the start of the Azazel storyline, Kripke probably only had an idea of making Sam a powerful psychic kid who defeats the YED who killed their mother by taking comtrol of his (Sam's) powers. Then he would go on and save Dean from his Demon Deal.

Then he had to retcon all of the psychic kids story into the "destined since the beginning of time" and "it was always you, Sam" canon. That's why it doesn't really make sense.

[DeeDee79]

47 minutes ago, MAK said:

We don't hear about Jared doing that for Sam., as often. For instance, he could have changed the questions to Chuck dialogue.

That's because the writing for Sam was already written to make him look better and be smarter than Dean. Even when he was hooked on demon blood and under Ruby's influence. Jared didn't have to tweak anything.

[Nick24]

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's because the writing for Sam was already written to make him look better and be smarter than Dean. Even when he was hooked on demon blood and under Ruby's influence. Jared didn't have to tweak anything.

But there was also one miracle named Jensen Ackles, who made Dean look much better in my eyes.

[DeeDee79]

25 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

But there was also one miracle named Jensen Ackles, who made Dean look much better in my eyes.

And who knew how to elevate the mediocre writing that was written for him. 20-30% of what made the character so iconic was writing, the rest was all Jensen.

[Nick24]

27 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And who knew how to elevate the mediocre writing that was written for him. 20-30% of what made the character so iconic was writing, the rest was all Jensen.

100% agreed. I can't wait to see Jensen as Dean again in the prequel and in the other roles too.

As for Sam, sometimes it seemed to me that Jared made Sam look worse. For instance, Season 4. Every time Sam was using his powers, he looked very arrogant and smug just like he was enjoying this a lot. No remorse. No struggling. Just smugness. I wonder if that was writing or acting choice.

As for Dean, we saw quite the opposite with the Mark Of Cain. We saw Dean's struggling with himself. We really saw, that he did not want to become ''that thing''. We saw, that he was trying as hard as he could to hold back. Jensen showed us that.

If SPN had been airing on some bigger network, Jensen would have already gotten Emmy. He has definitely deserved it. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

As for Sam, sometimes it seemed to me that Jared made Sam look worse. For instance, Season 4. Every time Sam was using his powers, he looked very arrogant and smug just like he was enjoying this a lot. No remorse. No struggling. Just smugness. I wonder if that was writing or acting choice.

He looked the same during the purge speech and when he told Dean that he would be the one to end Benny (paraphrasing) so I would say that it's just Jared's acting style.

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

He looked the same during the purge speech and when he told Dean that he would be the one to end Benny (paraphrasing) so I would say that it's just Jared's acting style.

I think then the directors should have told Jared to change his performance, because it did not look well at all. But apparently they either were ok with this or just ignored it.

[tessathereaper]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:07 PM, Nick24 said:

This!!!!! We were always shown that Dean was capable of functioning on his own just fine. Sam on the other hand was not and we were shown that too.

I just do not get, why they were trying to convince us in the opposite. 

I can assume that Sam's The Purge speech about ''Dean can't stand being alone'' was the writers' thinking and their intent to convince us in that. But the thing is, since the beginning they had been showing the opposite. It's either they were that blind with their Sam's goggles or they wasn't giving much credit to the viewers' intelligence.

I sometimes think this show was some sort of massive social experiment.  And what it showed is unfortunately not good.  IE Many people have few critical thinking skills and simply believe what they are told, even when their own eyes and the situation says something different.

Because throughout much of the show we have Dean doing something, behaving a certain and being painted in the wrong by the narrative when he's not.  He's lied to, he's betrayed, HE is treated as being in the wrong for being upset about it, for trying to set ANY boundaries. He's even painted as being at fault for THEM treating him badly and made to apologize for either imaginary or very minor in comparison reasons for causing THEIR behavior.

Dean behaves in a certain way, we're TOLD it's the opposite.  Throughout the show, we see Dean function, if not perfectly fine, then at least not too badly all things considered, on his own, in new situations, with new people.  He actually makes friends pretty easily. He's a natural leader. But we are TOLD "he can't be alone, he can't function alone" etc etc. 

Meanwhile Sam and others, who have totally unreasonable expectations of behavior from Dean(and only Dean) are treated as sympathetic and right for demanding Dean behave how THEY want him to, which is always to their own benefit, and almost never Dean's.  We see Sam and others who can't seem to function well without Dean in their lives and we're told they are fine and somehow it's Dean's fault for their behavior.  They can have the most unreasonable "boundaries" and it's fine, but Dean isn't allowed to have ANY. 

He must at all times forgive any of their transgressions against him, immediately and without any lingering effects, as if those transgressions had never happened. He is in the wrong for not immediately putting aside all his own trauma and focusing on them, and even when he is, this is used against him as he is called "weak" for it.  

Or as mentioned above, Dean was never shown to self-pitying and yet he was constantly called out for it by other characters or the writers.  Sam was frequently shown to be self-pitying.

Now in the end they COULD have used it, this they COULD have made it at least slightly worthwhile - Chuck wrote all this right?  THIS was his game, making up=down and right=left, etc.  Because hell why not?  He could do what he wanted, let's see how far he could take it.  It became worse as time went by because as we know he really wanted to break Dean and Dean damn him kept finding a way out.  Dean's angry and he doesn't know why?  Well THIS is why.  ANYONE would be angry being forced to live the way Dean has, with the unreasonable expectations put upon when he can plainly see that other people are not held to the same.

But of course that isn't what Dabb wanted and by the end he had writers who had all drunk the Dabb Kool Aid most of whom had barely watched the show.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

I sometimes think this show was some sort of massive social experiment.  And what it showed is unfortunately not good.  IE Many people have few critical thinking skills and simply believe what they are told, even when their own eyes and the situation says something different.

Because throughout much of the show we have Dean doing something, behaving a certain and being painted in the wrong by the narrative when he's not.  He's lied to, he's betrayed, HE is treated as being in the wrong for being upset about it, for trying to set ANY boundaries. He's even painted as being at fault for THEM treating him badly and made to apologize for either imaginary or very minor in comparison reasons for causing THEIR behavior.

Confirmation bias refers to the brain’s tendency to search for and focus on information that supports what someone already believes, while ignoring facts that go against those beliefs, despite their relevance.  (From Psychology Today)

That explains why some people choose to believe what they're told instead of something they'd have to decide on their own.   Or choose to believe one set of facts despite lack of proof, or even proof to the contrary.

OTOH, I honestly believe that the writers believed their own crap, or at least purposely decided (or were told) to write it that way.  And they kept piling more words on words because Jensen, by his expressions or reactions (non-written) kept undermining their words.  

Those who wanted to believe that Dean was behaving badly/was weak/was harming Sam or others would believe the words, backed up by their own feelings of indignation or anger on Sam's behalf.  There might not have been any questions if Jensen wasn't so good at portraying what was going on behind the words.  Maybe that's why the writers had it in for him...he was undermining everything they wrote and made Dean look more badly treated, rather than the overbearing bully they wanted him to be.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ahrtee

[Nick24]

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Dean's angry and he doesn't know why?  Well THIS is why.  ANYONE would be angry being forced to live the way Dean has, with the unreasonable expectations put upon when he can plainly see that other people are not held to the same.

I never saw that Dean had any serious anger-management issues (I do not count the MoC/Deanmon). I never saw him expressing some pure anger. We were told so many times that Dean was angry, angry, angry. But when was that the case?

When he couldn't forgive people just ‘’because’’? When he was being hurt by people he loved? When he could not immediately get over after endless betrayals by his supposed ''family''/''friends''? When he refused to play nice when he felt so bad inside?

I do not see any anger here.

I see the man, who was disappointed, hurt and desperate, because no matter what he did, no matter how hard he tried to take care of his loved ones, no matter how hard he tried to keep them safe, no matter how much he gave them, no matter how much love he showed them, no matter many times he was willing to sacrifice his own wishes for them, that supposed family kept treating him the same old way.

I guess indeed that might be the reason, why Famine said Dean that he was dead inside in Ep 5.14. IMO ‘’dead’’ meant ‘’empty’’. And Dean might’ve felt empty inside, because he had given all he had to others, all his feelings, emotions, everything was given to others by Dean. Dean did not leave anything for himself. And what they did to him at the end, I just can’t.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Nick24
Grammar

[Myrelle]

I'd "like" the last three posts on this thread a million billion times if I could.

I'll just add that Jensen Ackles became my favorite actor of all time by working the kind of acting magic that I don't think anyone in the industry could ever have matched through his performance of Dean on this show, and especially given what he had to put up with from the writers and showrunners attached to it since S5.

I don't think I've ever held as much respect for any actor's talent as I have for his.

He's made me believe that he can do/handle anything that any writer could ever throw at him, acting-wise.

The Man has such mad skills.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

I never saw that Dean had any serious anger-management issues (I do not count the MoC/Deanmon). I never saw him expressing some pure anger. We were told so many times that Dean was angry, angry, angry. But when was that the case?

When he couldn't forgive people just ‘’because’’? When he was being hurt by people he loved? When he could not immediately get over after endless betrayals by his supposed ''family''/''friends''? When he refused to play nice when he felt so bad inside?

I do not see any anger here.

I see the man, who was disappointed, hurt and desperate, because no matter what he did, no matter how hard he tried to take care of his loved ones, no matter how hard he tried to keep them safe, no matter how much he gave them, no matter how much love he showed them, no matter many times he was willing to sacrifice his own wishes for them, that supposed family kept treating him the same old way.

I guess indeed that might be the reason, why Famine said Dean that he was dead inside in Ep 5.14. IMO ‘’dead’’ meant ‘’empty’’. And Dean might’ve been empty inside, because he had given all he had to the others, all his feelings, emotions, everything was given to the others by Dean. Dean did not leave anything for himself. And what they did to him at the end, I just can’t.

Oh I agree, IMO that whole "anger" thing was basically made up out of nowhere and forced on the character near the end of the show but what I'm saying is THAT is actually an explanation for that supposed anger, they claimed he felt.  If he feels angry?  Well dammit I cannot blame him.  It's the anger of frustration, disappointment, impossible expectations no one else is expected to meet, etc, etc.

5.14, I'm pretty sure that IS why Famine told Dean that, Dean gave everything to others, he didn't even feel he deserved anything, so that's why he didn't hunger.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Oh I agree, IMO that whole "anger" thing was basically made up out of nowhere and forced on the character near the end of the show but what I'm saying is THAT is actually an explanation for that supposed anger, they claimed he felt.  If he feels angry?  Well dammit I cannot blame him.  It's the anger of frustration, disappointment, impossible expectations no one else is expected to meet, etc, etc.

100% agreed! Of course Dean had every right in the world to feel angry, he had every right to be mad at all of them considering all that crap they were putting on him. But even then Dean was suppressing his emotions. Even then Dean thought he had no right to feel the way he felt, because that was ''family'' and their feelings was coming first. 

And every time that crap was happening, Dean again and again proved me, how strong he was inside and how much patience he had.....and how lonely he was, because most of the time he had no one alive who would be spiritually close to him, who would understand him and who would accept and appreciate him for who he was. 

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'd "like" the last three posts on this thread a million billion times if I could.

I'll just add that Jensen Ackles became my favorite actor of all time by working the kind of acting magic that I don't think anyone in the industry could ever have matched through his performance of Dean on this show, and especially given what he had to put up with from the writers and showrunners attached to it since S5.

I don't think I've ever held as much respect for any actor's talent as I have for his.

He's made me believe that he can do/handle anything that any writer could ever throw at him, acting-wise.

The Man has such mad skills.

This X1000. Jensen is a fantastic actor - I believe the best of his generation. He deserved so, so much more from TPTB throughout the series. They should have been thrilled to death that he could build his character into one for the ages. Instead, it seemed like they resented him for that very thing. His facial expressions alone are legendary. Did you ever mute the sound and just watch him? I have, and it's something to behold. (of course I know what's going on because I've seen the episodes so many times) It is my opinion that without Jensen Ackles playing the character of Dean, this show would have lasted only a couple/few seasons. For all TPTB touting that Sam was the star of the show, it was Dean who carried it on his broad shoulders, who made people want to come back and see more. 

[Nick24]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'll just add that Jensen Ackles became my favorite actor of all time by working the kind of acting magic that I don't think anyone in the industry could ever have matched through his performance of Dean on this show, and especially given what he had to put up with from the writers and showrunners attached to it since S5.

I don't think I've ever held as much respect for any actor's talent as I have for his.

He's made me believe that he can do/handle anything that any writer could ever throw at him, acting-wise.

The Man has such mad skills.

100 % agreed! Personally I never thought that I would become that attached to a fictional character and an actor as I did to Dean/Jensen. And I never thought that I would be so worried about my favorite character's life journey as I am about Dean's. 

When I started to watch SPN I was like ''I'm gonna watch 1 or 2 seasons and that would be enough. I definitely won't watch 15 seasons. Why would I?'' But then I saw Dean/Jensen and couldn't help myself anymore. He just breathed life into Dean and he felt so real for me, no matter how bad the writing was. Those writers/producers had a brilliant on their hands. They were so stupid to ignore that fact. 

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'll just add that Jensen Ackles became my favorite actor of all time by working the kind of acting magic that I don't think anyone in the industry could ever have matched through his performance of Dean on this show, and especially given what he had to put up with from the writers and showrunners attached to it since S5.

Agreed too :) But I wanted to point out that after S4 there was one period of time when Jensen was finally given good material to work with - 9B and S10 (the MoC mytharc). There were so many episodes, when Jensen was just killing me with his performances and even the writing was there (I'll give it to Jeremy).

For instance, the scene before Dean killed Cain in 10.14. When Dean was saying:

Quote

DEAN: Tell me I don't have to do this. Tell me that you'll stop. Tell me that you can stop!

That was imo one the saddest and most heartbreaking moments of the entire show. Jensen showed all the desperation Dean felt. Jensen showed us, that Dean saw himself in Cain. He showed, that Dean was looking for hope. Jensen showed that Dean was thinking ''If Cain can stop, then there is hope for me''. We were never told that. But we saw it. 

P.S. Sorry for off topic

Edited May 31, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

 It is my opinion that without Jensen Ackles playing the character of Dean, this show would have lasted only a couple/few seasons. 

IMO you've given the producers too much credit. I guess they would have had only 1 season without Jensen.

18 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

 For all TPTB touting that Sam was the star of the show, it was Dean who carried it on his broad shoulders, who made people want to come back and see more. 

I am going to marry that statement.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

This X1000. Jensen is a fantastic actor - I believe the best of his generation. He deserved so, so much more from TPTB throughout the series. They should have been thrilled to death that he could build his character into one for the ages. Instead, it seemed like they resented him for that very thing. His facial expressions alone are legendary. Did you ever mute the sound and just watch him? I have, and it's something to behold. (of course I know what's going on because I've seen the episodes so many times) It is my opinion that without Jensen Ackles playing the character of Dean, this show would have lasted only a couple/few seasons. For all TPTB touting that Sam was the star of the show, it was Dean who carried it on his broad shoulders, who made people want to come back and see more. 

IMO, Dean is the only SPN character that stayed consistent throughout, and showed his growth while still remaining true to his character.  That, I think, is on Jensen and his loving Dean so much that he put more into it than the writing would allow, and did fight for things that seemed OOC.  

That's not to say Dean didn't change.  The Dean from season 1 was annoying, snarky, and had many gross habits but he had a lightness to him that disappeared even before Hell.  He truly believed in what he was doing, and only wanted to protect his family.  We saw him over the years lose his joy, become weighted down by responsibilities and terrible events, and becoming an adult with all that presumes. 

Sam also changed, and while it might have seen like growth, he was always playing a role: lost little brother, superhuman uber-hunter, empathetic or soulless or guilt-ridden or righteously angry.  I never, in all the years, got a sense of who he really was and who he wanted to be.  Maybe that's why the Sam fans seem so attached to early-season Sam, who at least did have a definite persona which was relatable to anyone with family problems.  That Sam was young and idealistic, wanting to break away or at least rebel against the rule of John and Dean.   That Sam disappeared long ago, but still showed up whenever the writers wanted some sympathy for him; because that Sam always played the victim--first to John and the rest of the time to Dean.  Maybe, as has been discussed upthread, that's where the "confirmation bias" began--with those who fell in love with/identified with early Sam, and ignored (or flamed) anyone who mentioned the later, not-so-sympathetic Sam.  

Some of the other characters in the show have changed, but not as a result of organic growth; more, because the writers wanted them to become something else.  Bobby went from supportive hunter-friend to surrogate father and finally to Yoda.  Charlie went from quirky and fun to full-on hunter/Mary Sue.  Cas went from warrior-angel to protective to buffoon to human and back again so many times I have no idea what he was supposed to be.  And I'm not even going to discuss the changes that John and Mary went through.

Jensen let the viewers/fans *watch* his growth, including occasional backsliding and stupid moves, all of which were actually consistent with his character.  That's something Jared didn't do or didn't have with Sam--whether his choice or the writers, the only consistent feature I've seen in Sam over the years is hubris. 

And IMO, that's the reason why the show lasted so long. *

*ETA: To clarify, yes, Jensen, and his ability to make us care about Dean despite everything, is the reason the show went on!

Edited May 31, 2022 by ahrtee

[Lastcall]

Now that the dust has settled, we get a clearer view on how and why the show ended. I watched the Mark Sheppard interview on inside of me and he laid out exactly what many have speculated on why he left the show. They didn't know what to do with Crowley and they wanted to get rid of him and use the money for the new characters Dabb and co. were interested in. I think Dabb did the same thing to Jensen. He never had any passion for Dean. He only cared about Sam and potential spin offs. Jared was having face to face meetings and dinners with Dabb while Jensen couldn't even get Dabb to answer a question about how he was playing Michael. Jensen was frozen out of the show just like Mark. They told him to just do whatever he wanted because anything he did didn't have an effect on the story Dabb wanted to tell. Jensen was probably told they were going to look out for him, and they made it seem like they had big plans (the Michael story) but in reality, it was another broken promise to get him to re-sign. 

Jensen has made it very clear that he wants to keep playing Dean Winchester. If you track his interviews, he went from "if someone wants to talk about a reunion, what's the harm in that?" to maybe a 6-episode short season on hulu or netflix to a 10-episode True Detective last case season on HBOMax. He gets more and more specific as time goes by and even Jared has been very careful with his words regarding a reunion. I think something is happening behind the scenes and we are closer to a reunion than we think.

Today, I would say that Jensen was not happy with Dabb running Supernatural. He was stuck because the CW gave Dabb a blank check, the ratings didn't matter, and he was happy to write fan fic for his twitter followers while the larger fanbase was abandoning the show. The Michael story was the final straw and Jensen pulled the plug. Dabb lost a lot of power to Singer and the Duo, and everyone just scrambled to write all the stories they needed to tell for all their pets (Sam, the waywards, Jack, Pelligrino...etc) while writing nothing for Dean. Jensen leaving was the only way to get rid of Dabb which is why the first thing Jensen did was grab the Supernatural Franchise. So, in the end, Dabb not only robbed Dean fans of 4 seasons but all the seasons we would have had if there was a better show runner. If they had anyone slightly decent, we would be speculating on the season 18 premier instead of where we are now.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

Jensen leaving was the only way to get rid of Dabb which is why the first thing Jensen did was grab the Supernatural Franchise.

I pray this is truth because that's the only way I would get behind a SPN reunion of any kind at this point. 

It's felt to me as if Jensen has been "frozen out" of many things  concerning the mothership since the mid point of S5 when Jared had his trailer retreat meltdown that had Kripke having to come up to Vancouver to talk him out of quitting and likely reassure him that he would be the Big Damn Hero of the show by the end of that season. 

I further think, as no few others here have stated, that Gamble's Sam/JP fetish was only the first of a number of times that Jensen was frozen out of things in favor of other actors/characters who the showrunners and some writers liked better.

But it took Dabb's so very blatant disregard and disrespect for both actor and character to finally open Jensen's eyes to what many of his fans had seen since Gamble took over-and yes, many of us saw the bones thrown to him just to ensure that he would re-sign for what they were even back then.

Hell, Purgatory, DemonDean, MOCDean-all under written and underdeveloped storylines that yes, Jensen made lemonade out of lemons with, but still, under written and underdeveloped all the same-especially when one considers how much attention was paid to SpecialSam, SoullessSam, TrialsSam, and the Lucifer and Sam storyline even saw Pellegrino and his characters also getting better treatment from the writers than Jensen and his other characters ever did.

So, in my mind, Dabb and the MichaelDean storyline was just the last straw in that regard.

But if that's what it took to wake him up to what had been happening for too long on this show? 

Well, then, I guess it's true that all things happen for a reason even if we can't discern them at the time. 

It was beginning to be so painful to watch what the asshats on this show were doing with it-and sorry, but I'm including JP in that group because he cheered them on each and every time. 

So now if Jensen is fully in charge of a reboot/reunion, the question becomes will Padalecki be able to let go of his ego enough to join in.

Personally, I couldn't care less about that, but I'm sure Jensen would want him in there, and not just strictly and only for continuity's sake or for ratings, but because of the ties that he feels bind everyone who made Supernatural what it was during S1-11.

JMO here.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Myrelle

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

If they had anyone slightly decent, we would be speculating on the season 18 premier instead of where we are now.

Oh, just salt on wounds.

I am wondering, what was the reason, that no one could get rid of Dabb? Because anyone, literally any of the former writers who left the building before S12 would have been better than him. 

As for Mark Sheppard situation, I don't get, why the network let it happen in the first place. That's just absurd. Dabb/Singer and Co. made dirty one of their regulars back in the 1st Dabb's season. Wasn't that a sign for the network, that Dabb and Singer had to go? IMO It was. Why didn't they care? 

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

Jensen was probably told they were going to look out for him, and they made it seem like they had big plans (the Michael story) but in reality, it was another broken promise to get him to re-sign. 

This is a new level of ''disgusting''.

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

. I think something is happening behind the scenes and we are closer to a reunion than we think.

I am also wondering, if this is true, who are going to be a showrunner? 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 It's felt to me as if Jensen has been "frozen out" of many things  concerning the mothership since the mid point of S5 when Jared had his trailer retreat meltdown that had Kripke having to come up to Vancouver to talk him out of quitting and likely reassure him that he would be the Big Damn Hero of the show by the end of that season. 

OMG. I've never heard of it. Does it mean, that all you need to do is to throw a tantrum and then you can get whatever you want? Wow. Just wow.

[Nick24]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So now if Jensen is fully in charge of a reboot/reunion, the question becomes will Padalecki be able to let go of his ego enough to join in.

Now after everything I've read here, my hope is fading away.

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I pray this is truth because that's the only way I would get behind a SPN reunion of any kind at this point. 

It's felt to me as if Jensen has been "frozen out" of many things  concerning the mothership since the mid point of S5 when Jared had his trailer retreat meltdown that had Kripke having to come up to Vancouver to talk him out of quitting and likely reassure him that he would be the Big Damn Hero of the show by the end of that season. 

I further think, as no few others here have stated, that Gamble's Sam/JP fetish was only the first of a number of times that Jensen was frozen out of things in favor of other actors/characters who the showrunners and some writers liked better.

But it took Dabb's so very blatant disregard and disrespect for both actor and character to finally open Jensen's eyes to what many of his fans had seen since Gamble took over-and yes, many of us saw the bones thrown to him just to ensure that he would re-sign for what they were even back then.

Hell, Purgatory, DemonDean, MOCDean-all under written and underdeveloped storylines that yes, Jensen made lemonade out of lemons with, but still, under written and underdeveloped all the same-especially when one considers how much attention was paid to SpecialSam, SoullessSam, TrialsSam, and the Lucifer and Sam storyline even saw Pellegrino and his characters also getting better treatment from the writers than Jensen and his other characters ever did.

So, in my mind, Dabb and the MichaelDean storyline was just the last straw in that regard.

But if that's what it took to wake him up to what had been happening for too long on this show? 

Well, then, I guess it's true that all things happen for a reason even if we can't discern them at the time. 

It was beginning to be so painful to watch what the asshats on this show were doing with it-and sorry, but I'm including JP in that group because he cheered them on each and every time. 

So now if Jensen is fully in charge of a reboot/reunion, the question becomes will Padalecki be able to let go of his ego enough to join in.

Personally, I couldn't care less about that, but I'm sure Jensen would want him in there, and not just strictly and only for continuity's sake or for ratings, but because of the ties that he feels bind everyone who made Supernatural what it was during S1-11.

JMO here.

All Dean fans have the version they like best. The Dean I like watching most is the badass monster slayer. So, I give a pass to a lot of seasons, many other Dean fans don't like. I loved Season Six Dean because the Vampire Massacre is one of my top five Dean moments of the entire series. Not to mention him wiping out a pack of skin walkers and taking out a warehouse full of Demons to save Lisa and Ben. I love Carver 8 through 10 for similar reasons. Even though I hate the Dabb run, even I dropped my guard when Dean got to kill Lucifer and it looked like the Michael story was going somewhere (I admit the fight wasn't cool, it was a puppet show). 14 was unwatchable because it seemed like Dabb was taking all of his frustrations out on Jensen and Dean.

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Oh, just salt on wounds.

I am wondering, what was the reason, that no one could get rid of Dabb? Because anyone, literally any of the former writers who left the building before S12 would have been better than him. 

As for Mark Sheppard situation, I don't get, why the network let it happen in the first place. That's just absurd. Dabb/Singer and Co. made dirty one of their regulars back in the 1st Dabb's season. Wasn't that a sign for the network, that Dabb and Singer had to go? IMO It was. Why didn't they care? 

This is a new level of ''disgusting''.

I am also wondering, if this is true, who are going to be a showrunner? 

If this is happening, I would bet Jensen and Jared would be equal partners and both their production companies would be involved. It would be fair, and I think that is something Jensen used to cool Jared down after the twitter meltdown. Whoever the showrunner is will be very interesting and will tell a lot about what is going on behind the scenes.

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So now if Jensen is fully in charge of a reboot/reunion, the question becomes will Padalecki be able to let go of his ego enough to join in.

Personally, I couldn't care less about that, but I'm sure Jensen would want him in there, and not just strictly and only for continuity's sake or for ratings, but because of the ties that he feels bind everyone who made Supernatural what it was during S1-11.

Actually, I wouldn't mind a reboot with Dean as the only lead. Why not? We've had Samnatural, we've had Jacknatural. Oh, we've even had Lucinatural. But we have never had Deannatural. About time! 😁

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

33 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, I wouldn't mind a reboot with Dean as the only lead. Why not? We've had Samnatural, we've had Jacknatural. Oh, we've even had Lucinatural. But we have never had Deannatural. About time! 😁

Ah, I can hear the Sam fans screaming already!

[ahrtee]

Here's an idea for a new spinoff/reboot:  During the 30 or 40 years between Dean's death and Sam's, Dean gets bored (we know he would!)  So, also, do many of the hunters already in heaven--Bobby, Rufus, Ellen, maybe even John and Mary; and so they form a team of hunters that can watch from above and go down to intervene in hunts (or take hunts of their own that are too dangerous for other hunters.) It's kind of a hunter's version of Valhalla, with the warriors together and still fighting to help others.  

And no Sam, because Dean wouldn't want to drag him back into hunting, and he doesn't have to worry about him, since, when he dies, he'll just join them in heaven.   😀

[Nick24]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Here's an idea for a new spinoff/reboot:  During the 30 or 40 years between Dean's death and Sam's, Dean gets bored (we know he would!)  So, also, do many of the hunters already in heaven--Bobby, Rufus, Ellen, maybe even John and Mary; and so they form a team of hunters that can watch from above and go down to intervene in hunts (or take hunts of their own that are too dangerous for other hunters.) It's kind of a hunter's version of Valhalla, with the warriors together and still fighting to help others.  

And no Sam, because Dean wouldn't want to drag him back into hunting, and he doesn't have to worry about him, since, when he dies, he'll just join them in heaven.   😀

Interesting idea! Dean could also go get Benny from Purgatory and even Crowley from the Empty. Maybe there is some freeway between Heaven/Hell/Purgatory/the Empty/Earth, which they would use to get from one realm to another without drawing much attention. Team Free Will 3.0, I guess!😄 

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, I wouldn't mind a reboot with Dean as the only lead. Why not? We've had Samnatural, we've had Jacknatural. Oh, we've even had Lucinatural. But we have never had Deannatural. About time! 😁

There is nothing I would like more than a Dean solo show. We will see soon enough if Jensen fans can support The Winchesters enough to keep it on the air. My favorite season is 10 but the ratings went down from 9 and back up in 11 and many sites rate it in the middle at best. I think Jensen has the largest fan base but his isn't as intense as Jared and Misha's. It's a tricky alchemy in how the show remained on the air for 15 years.

[Nick24]

11 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

 My favorite season is 10 but the ratings went down from 9 and back up in 11 and many sites rate it in the middle at best.

They wrapped up Demon!Dean arc very soon. Then they wasn't dealing with the MoC too much until the second half of the season. Mid-season finale was about Claire (Really, show?). Pacing was the problem too. They needed better writers, who would have been interested in the MoC/Deanmon, because from what I've seen the ratings jumped up when the MoC arc got started in S9.

ETA: But I still love S10, it just could have been much better

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

19 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

There is nothing I would like more than a Dean solo show. 

Now I've realized how badly I want this too! I believe that such iconic character as Dean Winchester can carry the show on his own. Jensen just needs to put together a team of decent writers. Also, the key to success could be in creating some interesting layered recurring characters, who would support Dean's journey.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

There is nothing I would like more than a Dean solo show. We will see soon enough if Jensen fans can support The Winchesters enough to keep it on the air. My favorite season is 10 but the ratings went down from 9 and back up in 11 and many sites rate it in the middle at best. I think Jensen has the largest fan base but his isn't as intense as Jared and Misha's. It's a tricky alchemy in how the show remained on the air for 15 years.

Season 10 was bogged down by very bad and repitive writing. Dean wasn't the main character in say Seasons 1 or 2 and took a backseat in mytharc eps but tended to be the stronger and far more standout character in the MOTWs. And even some mytharc ones if you count Season Finales and Openers.

So IMO it doesn't indicate anything rhat Season 10 lost ratings in terms of which character fans come out for. Viewers might have a fave character but they will come out more for interesting writing and characters who get to have some charisma and charme. Even charismatic and charming actors can't do things with nothing.

I love watching Jensen but outside of SPN which I don't know if I'll ever watch again, if you give me a choice between Dark Angel and say Dawson's Creek, I know which I'll pick in a heartbeat.

Now both Jensen and Jared are at a point where they will have a certain number of viewers even if they literally read the phone book or something. Even if they do projects that hold zero appeal to the viewer otherwise. Not everyone and maybe not forever but some.

[Nick24]

35 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

There is nothing I would like more than a Dean solo show. We will see soon enough if Jensen fans can support The Winchesters enough to keep it on the air. My favorite season is 10 but the ratings went down from 9 and back up in 11 and many sites rate it in the middle at best. 

As for S11, I don't get that obsession with season 11. S11 was the beginning of the end. The quality of scripts dropped to fanfics. They started to recycle the old storylines (Lucifer) and all of it was accompanied by utter canon assassination (Sure, neither Lilith nor Azazel knew about the BotD and how easy they could've set Lucifer free, just one example).

IMO all those ratings for S11 came out of obsession with Lucifer/Pellegrino and that toxic brotherly bond. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

But even if we take S10 ratings with 2.03 millions, that's more than enough to keep the show going. Dean fans will be mostly all in. Then they can just build up a new audience, which would become only Dean show audience.

IMO all we need: exciting story to tell, which could possibly suck in people who haven't watched SPN, decent writers, caring showrunner, layered recurring characters, who would have their own fans.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[BornToDie]

I’m never surprised by this fandom anymore, but it’s been a year and a half since the show ended and I’m not sure why there’s a need to beat the dead horse and start up these flame wars again.  Jared did some things I don’t agree with but he is not evil incarnate.  This need to continually villainize Jared and Sam borders on the ridiculous, especially since the prequel gate incident was a year ago.

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, Lastcall said:

They didn't know what to do with Crowley and they wanted to get rid of him and use the money for the new characters Dabb and co. were interested in.

I also remembering Mark Sheppard saying that they wanted to demote him to reoccurring instead of a regular and have him sign a contract to keep him from working on other projects while working on SPN. 

[Lastcall]

17 minutes ago, BornToDie said:

I’m never surprised by this fandom anymore, but it’s been a year and a half since the show ended and I’m not sure why there’s a need to beat the dead horse and start up these flame wars again.  Jared did some things I don’t agree with but he is not evil incarnate.  This need to continually villainize Jared and Sam borders on the ridiculous, especially since the prequel gate incident was a year ago.

I know a lot of people think the show went on too long and everyone should move on but many of us still want it to continue for various reasons. I really want the prequel to succeed, and I want a reunion show. Jared affects both of those things. As much as I hate it, Sam and Dean are a package deal. Naturally, fans are still defending their favorites and right now it seems like a reunion is possible. No one wants to be disappointed and if Jared had signaled it's impossible then we would all move. We did before we knew about the prequel, but he seems receptive and has even talked about it. Thing is, Jared and Jensen are doing a lot of interviews and they are putting out all this stuff we are talking about. This wasn't a year ago, the things we are talking about now have come out this month.

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I also remembering Mark Sheppard saying that they wanted to demote him to reoccurring instead of a regular and have him sign a contract to keep him from working on other projects while working on SPN. 

Dabb and Co. treated Sheppard like garbage. It was so bad, Sheppard shut them down on twitter when they tried a pr spin. He recently did an interview with Michael Rosenbaum that lays it all out and it confirmed everything we were saying 6 years ago.

[ahrtee]

36 minutes ago, BornToDie said:

Jared did some things I don’t agree with but he is not evil incarnate.  This need to continually villainize Jared and Sam borders on the ridiculous, especially since the prequel gate incident was a year ago.

What bothers me more is the fact that any time someone offers a criticism, even if it's not angry or vicious, it's being considered as "villainizing" someone or calling them "evil incarnate."  Sorry, but saying someone did something wrong or stupid, even if you call it stupid, is not "villainizing" them.  There's a big difference between being stupid and being evil.  

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

What bothers me more is the fact that any time someone offers a criticism, even if it's not angry or vicious, it's being considered as "villainizing" someone or calling them "evil incarnate."  Sorry, but saying someone did something wrong or stupid, even if you call it stupid, is not "villainizing" them.  There's a big difference between being stupid and being evil.  

I agree. Also, this thread is to air whatever grievances that fans have with characters/actors so I find it confusing that we have to keep reiterating this point.

[Nick24]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I also remembering Mark Sheppard saying that they wanted to demote him to reoccurring instead of a regular and have him sign a contract to keep him from working on other projects while working on SPN. 

I cannot believe my eyes. They're gonna bleed right now. 

I cannot understand, why Jensen and Mark S, who imo were the best regular actors on this show, got that nasty treatment from Dabb and Co.? My hatred for Dabb/Singer and Co. is getting stronger and stronger. How's that even possible?

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I cannot believe my eyes. They're gonna bleed right now. 

I cannot understand, why Jensen and Mark S, who imo were the best regular actors on this show, got that nasty treatment from Dabb and Co.? My hatred for Dabb/Singer and Co. is getting stronger and stronger. How's that even possible?

From what I recall after he was written out he said that he expressed his displeasure with the Crowley addicted to human blood storyline in season 9 and again with the Lucifer storyline in season 12. Both times he was shut down and I guess that they decided to double down on their treatment of the character and the actor.

Edited June 1, 2022 by DeeDee79

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

From what I recall after he was written out he said that he expressed his displeasure with the Crowley addicted to human blood storyline in season 9 and again with the Lucifer storyline in season 12. Both times he was shut down and I guess that they decided to double down on their treatment of the character and the actor.

So apparently some particular actors could get what they want, when they want, how they want, because the showrunners loved them.

On the other hand, the others had to either keep their mouths shut or be ready to be treated like crap. It smells of dictatorship and favoritism in the worst way possible.

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I also remembering Mark Sheppard saying that they wanted to demote him to reoccurring instead of a regular and have him sign a contract to keep him from working on other projects while working on SPN. 

Recurring vs. regular is a SAG contract condition, which depends on the number of episodes a character appears in.  More importantly, IIRC, "regulars" are paid whether they're on screen/in the episode or not, while recurring actors only get paid for the actual episodes they're in.  It's pretty standard, I think, to have a contract that states that the show you're recurring on has first dibs on the actor, so he can't take any other project that would interfere with the shooting schedule; and since they won't know the shooting schedule in advance (or even which episodes he'll be in) it effectively stops the actor from taking any other work during shooting.  

So "demoting" Crowley to recurring was an insult which could be explained as a cost-cutting measure to prevent any repercussions except, as happened, having MS quit, which is probably what they wanted in the first place.  Win-win for showrunner, lose-lose for MS.

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Win-win for showrunner, lose-lose for MS.

Also lose-lose for the show, because after getting rid of Crowley we got stuck with Lucifer/Nick, Jack and the other one-dimensional writers' pets.