“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

Damnit, it looks like Dean found out where Sam and Cas were hiding his Valium and he took a triple dose to make up for lost time.

Never before have i seen Jensen so checked out of an episode.

[Pondlass1]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Never before have i seen Jensen so checked out of an episode.

Meanwhile Jared and Misha seem to have adopted the same weird staccato way of delivering lines, and Alex looks constipated.

The Jody tied up in the barn scene was frustrating. Kaia would never have had a chance to jump the hunter savvy Winchesters of yesteryear. It was so obviously a trap. 
 

 

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

The Jody tied up in the barn scene was frustrating. Kaia would never have had a chance to jump the hunter savvy Winchesters of yesteryear. It was so obviously a trap. 
 

Never mind beat the crap out of two men twice her size and put an inescapable choke hold on Dean Winchester. Ridiculous Mary Sue-ing at it's worst.

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Never mind beat the crap out of two men twice her size and put an inescapable choke hold on Dean Winchester. Ridiculous Mary Sue-ing at it's worst.

And great hunter Jody got to be damsel-in-distress and call the boys (without giving them any warning).  And Cas didn't even heal her bruises/cut lip?  (And what was a sheriff doing checking out a dead cow in the middle of the night?  Even if it was vamps or werewolves, the cow  would still be there in the morning.  And she wasn't suspicious that there was no one around to call her?) 

So they have to hit everyone with the stupid/incompetent stick in order to make Kaia look good. 

  

[FlickChick]

All of the above good reasons why their Wayward wasn't picked up and now, as writers of our show, they're doing everything they can to trash it as punishment - to the network, WB, who knows. But to us, the fans, well who are we to expect a well-written final season to our show!

[Castiels Cat]

Responding to discussion in Speculation About Spoilers Regarding Upcoming Titles one of which mentions "Truth"... LMAO.

Did I imagine that Ruby said SAM KILLED HER!!! which never happened. Did I imagine the retcon of Ruby and Jo working together even though Ruby was terrified of Angel's and Jo fame to Earth after Metatron and Cas caused the Fall... 

What truth can one possibly expect from writers that have no respect for the history of the show or its canon. What satisfactory ending do you envision for the Winchesters?

 There is a walking, talking sparkly deus ex machina that the writing props up and canon and the truth be damned.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

They kind of touched on that at the last convention.  Sam is sort of the straight man to Dean's comic over the top behavior.

From the Spoilers thread.

I don't agree with that. A straight man sets up the joke, is involved in it. Yes, George Burns rolled his eyes at Gracie Allen, but there was humor and love in it, not impatience and disdain. There is no back and forth with Sam and Dean.

I never get the sense that Sam finds Deans behavior endearing or charming, more like he'd prefer he didn't know him. But apart from the BvJ aspect of it, it just doesn't make Sam likeable in any way when he rarely ever has a sense of humor about anything, in latter seasons especially, nor any tolerance for those who do (not just Dean). They hardly ever show him enjoying anything, whether it be a salad, or a tv show or a song. It's telling that the scene (last season? the one before?) with him and Not!Charlie in the car, when he was playing with the fidget spinner, seemed so out of character for him as to be jarring. IMO, even his brief relationship with Eileen lacked any sense of passion or joy. It's one thing to make Sam the more serious one to Dean's sometimes-foolishness, but they've taken it too far (for me) and just made him a wet blanket.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ut apart from the BvJ aspect of it, it just doesn't make Sam likeable in any way when he rarely ever has a sense of humor about anything, in latter seasons especially, nor any tolerance for those who do (not just Dean). They hardly ever show him enjoying anything, whether it be a salad, or a tv show or a song.

My opinion coming up here:

I thought that season 6 and 7 was full of Sam humor. It just was a more subtle, dry kind. Some of it came from Soulless Sam, but there was plenty of regular Sam humor, too. Season 1-5 had a little also, but it was less of the dry variety. Sam's dry humor is actually my favorite: Slash Fiction (sort of), The French Mistake,*** Frontierland, Season Seven..., How to Win Friends...,*** the flashbacks in Death's Door, Plucky Pennywhistle's..., Party On, Garth, and Reading Is Fundamental*** just for some examples. (I think Sera's Two Minutes to Midnight - where it was Sam who humorously asked Bobby "Did you kiss him?" - was a preview that under her rein Sam was going to get to be a bit less serious.)

However humorous Sam at least partially requires writers who care about actually showing that part of Sam and once Gamble was gone, there were few writers who cared about that or seemed to care about Sam's characterization much at all beyond how it furthered the plot (generally for their own favorites)... And Carver seemed to hate Sam more than anything else once we got to season 8 and he had his own original characters to promote instead. The only writer left who did seem to care was Robby Thompson - at least when he wasn't focusing on Charlie - and he left after season 11. Well, also either Ben Edlund - or Jared improvising - did give us that warming his hands over the corpse moment in Everybody Hates Hitler (which was brilliant, in my opinion), but Ben left in season 8.

Most writers post season 7 seemed to mainly be interested in having Sam screw up and be "wrong" and in showing how their own characters or favorites - Benny, Amelia, Gadreel, Jack, Mary, even Crowley and Ketch - were more awesome / badass and heroic than Sam. As long as Sam provided the "counterpoint" (always wrong) to Dean and made the other characters look good in comparison, that was all that was required of him.

So while now you are mainly right in your assessment, it didn't always used to be that way in my opinion, and I actually found Sam to be the more humorous one in seasons 6 and 7.

*** Ben Edlund I thought was great at writing humorous Sam. He also wrote Hollywood Babylon, Bad Day at Black Rock, Ghostfacers, Monster Movie, and Wishful Thinking from the early years.

Edited April 16, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

@AwesomO4000 I do agree that Sam used to be... I hesitate to say funny, because most of his humour towards Dean seemed mean-spirited to me, not brotherly teasing (although I acknowledge my own bias on that). But certainly less of a stick-up-his-butt, humorless fuddy-duddy than he is now. The episode with their prank war was one of my favourite brotherly interactions of all, and one of the few that felt like real brothers who actually liked each other to me. The scene at the end of Plucky Pennywhistle's as well. Unfortunately, when Jared is, as you say, 'understated' and Jensen is more overt, and the writing is so terribly on-the-nose and juvenile, it's a recipe for failure. We've had the discussion about whether Sam likes Dean ad nauseum, so I won't go there again now, but it would go a long way if Sam even occasionally reacted to some of Dean's harmless silliness with something other than impatience and disdain. He just comes off as a sanctimonious prig, instead. Just looking at that still photo from the sneak peek (the one that started this discussion in the other thread) makes me want to deck him.

[AwesomO4000]

There is some speculation here, but no real concrete spoilers. If more needs to be spoiler tagged, please let me know. Unfortunately there is no other safe place to put this, so I have to put it here. All pf this brought over from the "Spoilers" thread.

And all of this is my opinion only:

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

...so I'm terribly, terribly afraid that it'll be Sam who winds up with the Big Damn Hero Sacrificial Scene, probably as final redemption for everything he's already been forgiven for long ago.

As I said there, being forgiven for and making up for are two different things. And unfortunately the writers have generally set it up - especially over the last few years - that Sam has much, much more to make up for than Dean. When both make a mistake, Dean generally gets the "well, that was a little iffy maybe, but nothing horrible really happened" consequence. Whereas when Sam makes a mistake - often similar - there are huge anvils that THIS IS REALLY BAD, and then horrible, awful consequences happen to emphasize that. Season 9 and 10 was a huge example of that with the finale making a direct comparison with Sam having huge consequences for his actions and Dean having no bad consequences for all of his. According to the writers, Dean always makes the right decision*** so he has nothing to be redeemed for. We see it time and time again in the lack of world affecting consequences for Dean's actions - from helping and supporting a "monster" (Benny), to taking on the mark of Cain, to helping Gadreel, to taking on Michael.

In contrast, the writers (almost) always make sure to let us know that Sam's decisions have bad consequences. Even if we don't see it directly, they make sure to let us know that when Sam (or Castiel) messes up: lots of people die. Even if it's not necessary for the plot per se, they'll throw in oh yeah, by the way, Amara's cloud killed a town of 2000 people, just so you know that what Sam did was wrong, wrong , wrong and really, really bad.

What we think doesn't matter (according to the writers). It's the writers who have set this up that they think Sam is the "bad son" who needs redemption, and despite having settled all of that - in my opinion - by the end of season 7, starting in season 8, Carver dredged it alllll up again (because he knew "better") and the writers have been unsubtle in their message ever since in this regard. Sam is never right about anything big. Everything he does is the wrong thing to do and ends up in hugely bad consequences. Dean the "good son" makes all the right decisions (even when they are similar to ones Sam has made) and even if they are a little wrong, he does it because he feels worthless and so is trying to make a "sacrifice," and so things all work out and the consequences are good.

There is no subtlety there, for me. The writers have been working up to this for years, but since the show kept getting renewed, Sam never got any real "redemption" (forgiveness: yes, a way to make up for it: no,) just more and more mistakes putting off the redemption.

*** The writers may make little squawking protests - like the "The Purge" speech - but it's all "The lady doth protest too much," because when it really comes down to it, they take it all back - and more - and show that Dean really was right to do everything he did in the end, and that what Dean did saved the day. Every Time. The mark of Cain, Gadreel, killing Death, Michael... all the right thing to do in the end. The opposite happens for Sam. It all looks like the writers are being sympathetic - poor Sam, look how Gadreel made him suffer - but it's just surface, because in the end Sam is the bad guy. He even gets partially blamed for not knowing he was possessed by Gadreel - with the added barb of having Sam be the one to deliver the lines. But actually Sam was just a hypocrite and bad brother for being angry with Dean, and see Gadreel was a "real friend" after all. Same with season 10. Sam was so awful for being "mean to Dean," so now he must save him at all costs... but unlike Gadreel and the surface squawking, Sam really is shown as bad, bad, bad for daring to do all he could to save Dean and he causes an apocalypse. For me, it's not a subtle contrast.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Spoiler

I think it all circles back to Jensen's initial reaction to the ending, which was less than positive. If the ugly cry is Dean, over Sam, then I expect that his reaction was to Dean being relegated to cheerleader/nursemaid again, and not having an active role in the resolution. IMO that would explain him 'coming around' to it after discussion, because Jensen is the ultimate team player, and he either a) resigned himself to it, or b) actually felt that Sam/Jared deserved the final BDH play because he is, after all, number one on the call sheet (yes, I just threw up in my mouth a little) and that fans of the show would actually want that. Bigger picture and all, you know.

 

For me it has more to do with what I talked about above. Less to do with Sam/Jared being number one on the call sheet, and more to do with the writers setting it up that Sam needs redemption more in their mind.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Spoiler

That entire thought is so depressing, him basically thinking the character of Dean either has no or not many fans who would be invested enough to want him to have an equal role.

 

But that is not what this show has done... almost ever. The only finales that I remember where Sam and Dean had an "equal role" were generally ones where they lost. Season 1, Season 3, season 6.*** The closest they came was season 7, and Sam's role was "equal" only if you count what was done offscreen.

All the "wins" have generally been one brother or the other. And considering Dean has been the dominant brother for a vast majority of the major wins starting from season 6 on (6, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 13,  I kinda think Sam is due a win by this point. Sam maybe had season 12 - if you squint and ignore the humiliation leading up to it. And if the writers can't seem to do the brothers getting a win together equally - which seems to be the case from the history -  I kinda think it's Sam's turn.

But that's just me.

*** As much as I enjoyed season 6 and the way they both contributed even though apart, I wouldn't call it a win.

[trudysmom]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

one of the few that felt like real brothers who actually liked each other

THIS is why I love the Baby episode so much.  All of the scenes together are so brotherly.  The roadhouse (yes Sam has a stick up his butt about it), the singing Night Moves (love!), but mostly the car conversation after daddy slipped behind the wheel and talked to Sam.  Maybe because they sound so relaxed, so Texan, in that scene, I rewatch it over and over.  But they felt like brothers in that episode, that's what I love about it.

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We've had the discussion about whether Sam likes Dean ad nauseum, so I won't go there again now, but it would go a long way if Sam even occasionally reacted to some of Dean's harmless silliness with something other than impatience and disdain.

I thought in the early years that Sam showed quite a bit of patience with Dean's silliness. There was the "bikini inspector" incident (which in itself was not the nicest thing to do on Dean's part), and the two incidents in the Christmas episode, and the doll clothes incident, and my feeling that these things were not an uncommon occurrence. I thought Sam was being rather patient and accommodating in those circumstances. And in season 3, Sam was very patient in my opinion.

Of course, others' opinions will vary.

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought in the early years that Sam showed quite a bit of patience with Dean's silliness. There was the "bikini inspector" incident (which in itself was not the nicest thing to do on Dean's part), and the two incidents in the Christmas episode, and the doll clothes incident, and my feeling that these things were not an uncommon occurrence. I thought Sam was being rather patient and accommodating in those circumstances. And in season 3, Sam was very patient in my opinion.

Of course, others' opinions will vary.

Even in season 4, in Monster Movie, Sam had a fond expression on his face when he saw Dean geeking out over the big pretzel.  But that was 11 years ago.  I haven't really seen any fondness or patience since then.  

 

44 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What we think doesn't matter (according to the writers). It's the writers who have set this up that they think Sam is the "bad son" who needs redemption, and despite having settled all of that - in my opinion - by the end of season 7, starting in season 8, Carver dredged it alllll up again (because he knew "better") and the writers have been unsubtle in their message ever since in this regard. Sam is never right about anything big. Everything he does is the wrong thing to do and ends up in hugely bad consequences. Dean the "good son" makes all the right decisions (even when they are similar to ones Sam has made) and even if they are a little wrong, he does it because he feels worthless and so is trying to make a "sacrifice," and so things all work out and the consequences are good.

There is no subtlety there, for me. The writers have been working up to this for years, but since the show kept getting renewed, Sam never got any real "redemption" (forgiveness: yes, a way to make up for it: no,) just more and more mistakes putting off the redemption.

I think we've discussed this ad infinitum (and ad nauseum).  I think the problem has to do with our own definition of "redemption" and perception of who we each see as getting the worst end of the stick. 

Suffice it to say, I understand your point, but do not, have not and probably will not ever agree with it.  Sorry.  Nothing personal. 😊

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There is some speculation here, but no real concrete spoilers. If more needs to be spoiler tagged, please let me know. Unfortunately there is no other safe place to put this, so I have to put it here. All pf this brought over from the "Spoilers" thread.

And all of this is my opinion only:

As I said there, being forgiven for and making up for are two different things. And unfortunately the writers have generally set it up - especially over the last few years - that Sam has much, much more to make up for than Dean. When both make a mistake, Dean generally gets the "well, that was a little iffy maybe, but nothing horrible really happened" consequence. Whereas when Sam makes a mistake - often similar - there are huge anvils that THIS IS REALLY BAD, and then horrible, awful consequences happen to emphasize that. Season 9 and 10 was a huge example of that with the finale making a direct comparison with Sam having huge consequences for his actions and Dean having no bad consequences for all of his. According to the writers, Dean always makes the right decision*** so he has nothing to be redeemed for. We see it time and time again in the lack of world affecting consequences for Dean's actions - from helping and supporting a "monster" (Benny), to taking on the mark of Cain, to helping Gadreel, to taking on Michael.

In contrast, the writers (almost) always make sure to let us know that Sam's decisions have bad consequences. Even if we don't see it directly, they make sure to let us know that when Sam (or Castiel) messes up: lots of people die. Even if it's not necessary for the plot per se, they'll throw in oh yeah, by the way, Amara's cloud killed a town of 2000 people, just so you know that what Sam did was wrong, wrong , wrong and really, really bad.

What we think doesn't matter (according to the writers). It's the writers who have set this up that they think Sam is the "bad son" who needs redemption, and despite having settled all of that - in my opinion - by the end of season 7, starting in season 8, Carver dredged it alllll up again (because he knew "better") and the writers have been unsubtle in their message ever since in this regard. Sam is never right about anything big. Everything he does is the wrong thing to do and ends up in hugely bad consequences. Dean the "good son" makes all the right decisions (even when they are similar to ones Sam has made) and even if they are a little wrong, he does it because he feels worthless and so is trying to make a "sacrifice," and so things all work out and the consequences are good.

There is no subtlety there, for me. The writers have been working up to this for years, but since the show kept getting renewed, Sam never got any real "redemption" (forgiveness: yes, a way to make up for it: no,) just more and more mistakes putting off the redemption.

*** The writers may make little squawking protests - like the "The Purge" speech - but it's all "The lady doth protest too much," because when it really comes down to it, they take it all back - and more - and show that Dean really was right to do everything he did in the end, and that what Dean did saved the day. Every Time. The mark of Cain, Gadreel, killing Death, Michael... all the right thing to do in the end. The opposite happens for Sam. It all looks like the writers are being sympathetic - poor Sam, look how Gadreel made him suffer - but it's just surface, because in the end Sam is the bad guy. He even gets partially blamed for not knowing he was possessed by Gadreel - with the added barb of having Sam be the one to deliver the lines. But actually Sam was just a hypocrite and bad brother for being angry with Dean, and see Gadreel was a "real friend" after all. Same with season 10. Sam was so awful for being "mean to Dean," so now he must save him at all costs... but unlike Gadreel and the surface squawking, Sam really is shown as bad, bad, bad for daring to do all he could to save Dean and he causes an apocalypse. For me, it's not a subtle contrast.

For me it has more to do with what I talked about above. Less to do with Sam/Jared being number one on the call sheet, and more to do with the writers setting it up that Sam needs redemption more in their mind.

But that is not what this show has done... almost ever. The only finales that I remember where Sam and Dean had an "equal role" were generally ones where they lost. Season 1, Season 3, season 6.*** The closest they came was season 7, and Sam's role was "equal" only if you count what was done offscreen.

All the "wins" have generally been one brother or the other. And considering Dean has been the dominant brother for a vast majority of the major wins starting from season 6 on (6, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 13,  I kinda think Sam is due a win by this point. Sam maybe had season 12 - if you squint and ignore the humiliation leading up to it. And if the writers can't seem to do the brothers getting a win together equally - which seems to be the case from the history -  I kinda think it's Sam's turn.

But that's just me.

 

For the Series Finale, the final impression the show leaves on and certainly going to be the most important and lasting win ever to not make it equal would be the suckiest of all the suckitudes to me. This is not random monster hunts, it`s the end all, be all so having Dean just be the little supporting servant in the conclusion of the entire show while Sam is canonized as the one and only hero? Can`t agree that that would be in any way, shape or form fair. Nor do I think Sam has been anything but saintified in years.  

Why should Sam and only Sam be due the show being canonized into Samnatural? And it will be if he gets the win. Then why was Dean in the freaking show to begin with? Why wasn`t he killed off early on if he ends the entire show as the footnote to the glory of Sam? 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why should Sam and only Sam be due the show being canonized into Samnatural? And it will be if he gets the win. Then why was Dean in the freaking show to begin with? Why wasn`t he killed off early on if he ends the entire show as the footnote to the glory of Sam? 

I think that post s4, the show was turned into Samnatural and it has continued on in that vein, exceptions being s9 and 10 when I honestly feel that Carver did put more effort into writing for JA/Dean than any other showrunner before or since. And then we got s11 which wascthe transition from Carver to Dabb(which I believe happened very early on) amd Dabb reinstated Samnatural with a vengeance and I fully believe that that's how he's always wanted to end it and how he, in fact(in my mind) will end it.

I have no hope left for anything better or more from him than simply another version of Swan Song, only this time Dabb will try to find a way to make Sam's sole BDH role, moment, and sacrifice stick, and yes, leave us with yet another attempt at the thought that, Samnatural should be the lasting legacy of this show-to which I will continue to say Blech! and Yuck!!

But luckily, after it's all said and done the Dabb years can also easily be erased from this fan's mind.

I can remember so little from them even now. 😉

 

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I never get the sense that Sam finds Deans behavior endearing or charming, more like he'd prefer he didn't know him. But apart from the BvJ aspect of it, it just doesn't make Sam likeable in any way when he rarely ever has a sense of humor about anything, in latter seasons especially, nor any tolerance for those who do (not just Dean). They hardly ever show him enjoying anything, whether it be a salad, or a tv show or a song. It's telling that the scene (last season? the one before?) with him and Not!Charlie in the car, when he was playing with the fidget spinner, seemed so out of character for him as to be jarring. IMO, even his brief relationship with Eileen lacked any sense of passion or joy. It's one thing to make Sam the more serious one to Dean's sometimes-foolishness, but they've taken it too far (for me) and just made him a wet blanket.

I agree 100%. When I rewatch the early seasons I remember how they would (occasionally) laugh together and wonder why it doesn't happen anymore.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me it has more to do with what I talked about above. Less to do with Sam/Jared being number one on the call sheet, and more to do with the writers setting it up that Sam needs redemption more in their mind.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

All the "wins" have generally been one brother or the other. And considering Dean has been the dominant brother for a vast majority of the major wins starting from season 6 on (6, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 13,  I kinda think Sam is due a win by this point. Sam maybe had season 12 - if you squint and ignore the humiliation leading up to it. And if the writers can't seem to do the brothers getting a win together equally - which seems to be the case from the history -  I kinda think it's Sam's turn.

The problem is that this is the end. This is what the lasting memory of the show will be - how it ended. I swear if it happens, I will burn my DVDs.

[DeeDee79]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

The problem is that this is the end. This is what the lasting memory of the show will be - how it ended. I swear if it happens, I will burn my DVDs.

😭

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why should Sam and only Sam be due the show being canonized into Samnatural? And it will be if he gets the win. Then why was Dean in the freaking show to begin with? Why wasn`t he killed off early on if he ends the entire show as the footnote to the glory of Sam? 

I never said it should.

If you read what I said, I said if the writers can't make it equal, then maybe it should be Sam's turn. It's not what I want. It's just that the writers don't seem to be capable of anything else.

I don't think there would be much complaint here if it was only Dean who got the big hero moment. It would probably be more like "well, it's only fair since Sam got Swan Song." There weren't many complaints from non Sam-liking people when Sam had no role in the season 9 finale, or the season 11 one, or that he was only back up in season 13.

And if season 12 is an example of giving Sam the spotlight... geez no thank you! I found that supposed "hero moment" completely insulting to Sam. First the public admission that he had been wrong (for doing something that made no sense for him to have done anyway - we both agreed on that, and we hardly agree on anything), then having to come to the "realization" that he's been wrong to live his entire life to that point the way he had and had been taking "the easy way out" (oh, joy and really?), then the groveling for help, and then the raid itself where he didn't play any larger role than any other person on that "mission" which was basically "kill everyone to solve the problem."

Then because he was previously supposedly living his life "wrong," Dabb set about showing how Sam should live his life "better" as a leader... and then proceeding to show how Sam sucked at it. Pretty much a repeat of what Carver did. (Sam should be more "independent" and "mature" - except that he obviously shouldn't and was oh, so wrong to have tried, since all Sam ever really needed / wanted was Dean's approval.)

So if that's the kind of thing Dabb might see as being a good ending for Sam, it can only end badly in my opinion.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

For the Series Finale, the final impression the show leaves on and certainly going to be the most important and lasting win ever to not make it equal would be the suckiest of all the suckitudes to me.

I don't disagree.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Nor do I think Sam has been anything but saintified in years.  

For me it's hard to "saintify" a character while trying to change almost everything that character is into something he isn't. That's the opposite of saintifying a character. It's fundamentally trying to change the character into what you want him to be, not honoring what he actually is. This is what both Carver and Dabb have tried to do, in my opinion, differently, but both horribly.

Saintifying Sam would have been having Sam at least help save the day at least once.... while being Sam. Using his smarts, helping Dean while being awesome back up, thinking things through. Not implying that the only way for Sam to be a hero is to not be himself at all, but rather to be like Dean instead.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And then we got s11 which wascthe transition from Carver to Dabb(which I believe happened very early on) amd Dabb reinstated Samnatural with a vengeance

Except that Dean was the hero of season 11, not Sam, so this makes little sense to me. Oh, wow, Sam got a "win" by saying "no" to Lucifer (which came at the price of yet another stupid mistake, mind you) and one episode where he was a little more than he should have been (Red Meat). And one episode where he gets an imaginary friend that's solely his (considering Dean has had his own angel associated with him since season 4, I don't see this as that big a deal). In my opinion, that doesn't exactly translate to it being All. About. Sam. Especially since Dean had the connection to Amara, was the one praised by God, and was the one who saved the day. Had the series ended there, there would have been little complaint I bet. (And I say this as someone who loved season 11.)

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I have no hope left for anything better or more from him than simply another version of Swan Song, only this time Dabb will try to find a way to make Sam's sole BDH role, moment, and sacrifice stick,

And yet after 3 seasons of Dabb's rein, it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure why it would happen now. And if it does, I'm sure that Dabb will find some way to make it a bad thing... like Sam's only contribution and way to be a hero is to "do what Dean would have done," or something like that. Sam will have to tearfully admit that if only he'd listened to Dean all along, everything wouldn't have gone to crap. That he's been the screw up, but now he's going to follow Dean's lead and make it right. I fully expect Sam's "redemption" to come with some addendum like that.

That's pretty much been Sam's arc for the last two showrunners now.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But that was 11 years ago.  I haven't really seen any fondness or patience since then. 

I guess opinions vary one that. I saw it quite a bit in season 6B and 7. Plucky Pennywhistle, Frontierland (especially), Mannequin 3..., Season 7, Time For a Wedding, How to Win Friends..., Time After Time..., The French Mistake, Out With the Old (lots of fun between them there), and many others. Carver was the one who ruined it in my opinion, and once he was gone, we got some more again - from writers who bothered to write Sam with any layers (though admittedly not as much as before.) Baby, and Fanfiction*** are two examples. Into the Mystic, and Regarding Dean were pretty good in that regard also. Love Hurts was pretty good too for that. In my opinion, anyway.

It's mainly that after Carver was done trashing Sam and stripping that aspect (among others) from his character, it was too late for a lot of people. I know it was almost too late for me, and I actually like Sam.

*** Season 10, but Robbie Thompson

[Aeryn13]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

The problem is that this is the end. This is what the lasting memory of the show will be - how it ended. I swear if it happens, I will burn my DVDs.

I will consider the entire 15 years a waste then. Wish I never watched it in the first place because why bother? It would invaluate everything about Dean being in the show, every episode, scene, every so-called "win". A horrible ending always has the potential to retroactively make a story null and void.

[7kstar]

23 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

All the "wins" have generally been one brother or the other. And considering Dean has been the dominant brother for a vast majority of the major wins starting from season 6 on (6, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 13,  I kinda think Sam is due a win by this point. Sam maybe had season 12 - if you squint and ignore the humiliation leading up to it. And if the writers can't seem to do the brothers getting a win together equally - which seems to be the case from the history -  I kinda think it's Sam's turn.

But that's just me.

No I don't think it should end with it's Sam's turn.  I want BOTH brothers side by side.  period.

I won't destroy my dvd's but I won't be buying anymore either.  I guess this is where fanfiction helps.  Example "Merlin" ended in a way that many fans never wanted to watch the show again.  Some fans instead wrote their own ending and ignored the real ending or took the real ending and moved on to create their ending.

It would be nice if I was satisfied with the actual ending but I'm not expecting that at all.  Now I'm not expecting to keep my cable so I may not even see the real ending. 

I guess since fanfiction got me to even watch the show, didn't start watching until the end of season 3, I can create my own ending.  It's a shame.  I wish the writer's care to create an ending that honored BOTH brothers, but I doubt we have one that can do that and another swansong isn't wanted or needed.  JMO.

[FlickChick]

I don't read spoilers but I'm getting the impression that there's some speculation that Sam saves this miserable world alone while Dean watches from the sideline - much like Swan Song. Of course the series shouldn't end that way - it should only end with BOTH BROTHERS SAVING THE WORLD. That's why I've always thought they should do a supernatural version of "Butch and Sundance" - both brothers, equal investment and sacrifice for the good of the world and the ultimate end of the "family business". Really, Dabb, is that so difficult to write? If so, you should be truly ashamed of yourself and maybe take a look at some of the great fan-fiction out there.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I wish the writer's care to create an ending that honored BOTH brothers, but I doubt we have one that can do that and another swansong isn't wanted or needed.  JMO.

I actually don't disagree with you here at all. I did say if they couldn't do a finale that included both brothers having an equal role that I thought it should more be Sam's turn. I didn't say that I wanted it that way. I just don't see 14 years of show history changing now.

The problem is that even when we had the best of writers for this show... they never did this that I recall. I didn't come to this realization actually until recently. Not that one or the other of the brothers was sometimes left out - I recognized that - but that in 14 years there had never been a finale that honored both brothers equally. Not definitively. At least not one where they didn't lose. Which if you think about it is kind of weird in a show where brothers as partners working together should be a thing. But unless I'm forgetting something - and I could be concerning a recent season, since they are kind of a blur - there just hasn't been.

Season 7 came closest in terms of both playing a role... but they didn't do it together, and one's contribution happened offscreen. That's pretty much it. When there is a finale that they are working together side by side... it generally goes south and badly - Devil's Trap, No Rest for the Wicked, The Man Who Knew Too Much, Brother's Keeper - or it's a bust like Sacrifice.

I would love for the finale to be Sam and Dean, side by side, both contributing to get a win, but for some damn reason, most of the show runners never do it. It's like they want to subvert the whole premise of the show.

It's weird, in my opinion.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Really, Dabb, is that so difficult to write? If so, you should be truly ashamed of yourself and maybe take a look at some of the great fan-fiction out there.

I can name 20 fanfics that do the brothers more justice than what's we've seen during Dabbnatural ( ™ @gonzosgirrl ). Dabb is such a f!#*ing hack and I hope that he gets laughed at when he tries to find work outside of SPN.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When there is a finale that they are working together side by side... it generally goes south and badly - Devil's Trap, No Rest for the Wicked, The Man Who Knew Too Much

With these examples I would argue that they aren't too bad because the brothers were working towards the same end, not against each other. Even if they don't reach the result that they're striving for I prefer that to them being at odds or a one of them feeling guilty for their hand in the events leading up to the finale. That's when it becomes unbearable for me personally.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

With these examples I would argue that they aren't too bad because the brothers were working towards the same end, not against each other. Even if they don't reach the result that they're striving for I prefer that to them being at odds or a one of them feeling guilty for their hand in the events leading up to the finale. That's when it becomes unbearable for me personally.

The examples @AwesomO4000 listed as finales going south have to be considered with the caveat that virtually *every* season finale (except season 2, IIRC) has been the setup for the following season, so it concludes on a cliffhanger of things going bad.  

But even those examples weren't the result of Sam doing anything wrong; in fact, they were showing him trying his damnedest to fix things or save Dean.  The fact that he didn't/couldn't is nothing against Sam, since they all had events stacked against him.  You might as well call AHBL part I being anti-Dean because he failed to save Sam.  If the season had ended with that episode instead of part 2, it would have had the same cliffhanger ending as NRFTW, for example, or any of the finales ending with the world (or the boys) in imminent danger.  

In my view, pretty much every season finale has had the boys either working/fighting together or worrying about/trying to save the other, no matter what led up to it.  None of them has either one coming out as winner.  So if this is the *final* finale, IMO it should have the two of them together, win or lose.  There'll be no further resolution or redemption in the following season, so there shouldn't be either blame or glory placed on one over the other.   

Again, that's *shouldn't*.  Doesn't mean there won't be with the current writing crew.

Though I must say, with Dabb in particular, I'd be surprised if either Winchester comes out ahead.  I'm assuming Jack is going to be the BDH/deus ex machina who winds up the hero, while the boys are left admiring/supporting (and possibly mourning) him and Cas.  😬

 

 

[DeeDee79]

45 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The examples @AwesomO4000 listed as finales going south have to be considered with the caveat that virtually *every* season finale (except season 2, IIRC) has been the setup for the following season, so it concludes on a cliffhanger of things going bad.  

But even those examples weren't the result of Sam doing anything wrong; in fact, they were showing him trying his damnedest to fix things or save Dean.  The fact that he didn't/couldn't is nothing against Sam, since they all had events stacked against him.  You might as well call AHBL part I being anti-Dean because he failed to save Sam.  If the season had ended with that episode instead of part 2, it would have had the same cliffhanger ending as NRFTW, for example, or any of the finales ending with the world (or the boys) in imminent danger.  

In my view, pretty much every season finale has had the boys either working/fighting together or worrying about/trying to save the other, no matter what led up to it.  None of them has either one coming out as winner.  So if this is the *final* finale, IMO it should have the two of them together, win or lose.  There'll be no further resolution or redemption in the following season, so there shouldn't be either blame or glory placed on one over the other.   

Again, that's *shouldn't*.  Doesn't mean there won't be with the current writing crew.

Though I must say, with Dabb in particular, I'd be surprised if either Winchester comes out ahead.  I'm assuming Jack is going to be the BDH/deus ex machina who winds up the hero, while the boys are left admiring/supporting (and possibly mourning) him and Cas.  😬

 

 

I would say that Devil's Trap and No Rest For The Wicked are the best in terms of the brothers being on the same page and working towards the same end IMO. Sam wasn't trying to atone for season long screwups; they were in sync to combat the season's issue ( save John from YED, save Dean from his deal ) and they ended on a cliffhanger that made us anxious to see what came next. The Man Who Knew Too Much was admittedly mostly Sam's hell trauma taking a front seat with the latter half being asshole Cas stuff but the brothers were united in stopping him. Season 7 would have been a great cliffhanger if not for the disappointing and rage inducing season 8 opener. With that being said all of the previous showrunners ( more or less ) before Dabb were able to craft a finale that showed the brothers working as a team. The exception being Swan Song which was insufferable and Alpha and Omega which gave us Mary which is just unforgivable. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

With these examples I would argue that they aren't too bad because the brothers were working towards the same end, not against each other. Even if they don't reach the result that they're striving for I prefer that to them being at odds or a one of them feeling guilty for their hand in the events leading up to the finale. That's when it becomes unbearable for me personally.

Oh, I agree. I didn't mean going south in that they were bad. Those were actually some of my favorite finales. I meant that they went south in that the results were pretty bad for the Winchesters.

I also agree with your second point - wholeheartedly actually. That's why even though I can agree that season 4 was fairly well written and I kinda (sorta) got what they were going for, it wasn't one of my favorite seasons in that I didn't enjoy it very much comparatively because of exactly what you described. And season 8 and 9 were the worst for me in that regard. I almost gave up on the show entirely after both of those finales.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The examples @AwesomO4000 listed as finales going south have to be considered with the caveat that virtually *every* season finale (except season 2, IIRC) has been the setup for the following season, so it concludes on a cliffhanger of things going bad. 

This is a good point, though comparatively speaking - except for season 6's finale which I loved - I prefer the finales that set something up while still giving the brothers at least a bit of a win: "All Hell..., Pt 2" and "Survival of the Fittest" for example.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But even those examples weren't the result of Sam doing anything wrong; in fact, they were showing him trying his damnedest to fix things or save Dean.  The fact that he didn't/couldn't is nothing against Sam, since they all had events stacked against him.  You might as well call AHBL part I being anti-Dean because he failed to save Sam.  If the season had ended with that episode instead of part 2, it would have had the same cliffhanger ending as NRFTW, for example, or any of the finales ending with the world (or the boys) in imminent danger.

I actually agree with you here, too, though you might be surprised how often I have seen some fans blame Sam for not having saved Dean in season 3. And I actually didn't have a problem with the episodes I mentioned in regards to Sam's role - I only mentioned them because Sam and Dean had a pretty grim result, and so definitely not something I want to see as a series finale.

My main gripes in terms of Sam's role when it comes to finales come mostly from the Carver years. Season 8's finale pissed me off because Sam's arc conclusion was basically a repeat - admittedly a somewhat more humiliating repeat - of season 6B - 7, so I was thinking "wait, so Sam's character was trashed for this?" I didn't think a finale could annoy me more (it was my version of many Dean fans' "Swan Song"*** at the time). ... Well, that was until season 9's finale. That was even worse. I don't think I've hated a season finale more. That Sam was pretty much pushed aside so a character like Gadreel could get a big redemption arc was more than annoying. And that's before turning Sam into a lying hypocrite.

Though "Lucifer Rising" wasn't a favorite with me either, truthfully.

*** Swan Song haters please ignore. I don't want to offend:

Spoiler

Which I really, really liked actually... But that's because in my interpretation of that finale, Dean's role was crucial in multiple ways, so I consider this an example of the boys working together for a good result. I don't use it though, because I know a lot of people here don't agree, so I'm trying to respect that opinion.

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

In my view, pretty much every season finale has had the boys either working/fighting together or worrying about/trying to save the other, no matter what led up to it.  None of them has either one coming out as winner. 

I may need to reconsider my position on this. It could be that maybe my opinion has been clouded by the Carver years. Especially season 9.

Quote

So if this is the *final* finale, IMO it should have the two of them together, win or lose.  There'll be no further resolution or redemption in the following season, so there shouldn't be either blame or glory placed on one over the other. 

Actually I agree. This is mainly all I want, too.

Quote

Though I must say, with Dabb in particular, I'd be surprised if either Winchester comes out ahead.  I'm assuming Jack is going to be the BDH/deus ex machina who winds up the hero, while the boys are left admiring/supporting (and possibly mourning) him and Cas.  😬

Unfortunately, I also agree that this is a concern for me, too. Though admittedly Dabb did give us Sam and Dean killing Lucifer together. Despite the set up having Sam making a stupid mistake to set that up (though I should be numb to that by now)*** Sam and Dean were together and worked together to defeat him. This was admittedly much better than season 9's finale that left Sam unconscious in the dirt while every one else - including Gadreel - saved the world. Though the shooting Chuck thing last season finale was not good, so...

So I don't know. I kinda prefer Dabb's chances (50/50?) to anything Carver would have done - at least based on the finales we got from him. Season 10 would have been great except for all of the blame and guilt heaped on Sam with the Darkness, because I agree with @DeeDee79 on that one. The blame and guilt stuff is annoying. The other two were awful for Sam, so I wouldn't want Carver back.

Gamble though... I think she would give both brothers a good ending. I miss Gamble.

*** In the Supernatural panel of last year's Dragon Con, I had been lamenting some stupid thing Sam had done that past season that we were discussing, and someone smiled knowingly at me and said "but that's just what Sam does. It's kind of his thing now." I laughed, because sadly it's pretty much true now.

[gonzosgirrl]

But if Gamble came back we'd probably have to live with the mutton chops again, and ain't nobody missing those. Heh.

She was kind of the ultimate Sam girl, so I can see how she is your preference, @AwesomO4000 It's testament to how much I hate Andre Badd that I would gladly welcome her back in his place.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if Gamble came back we'd probably have to live with the mutton chops again, and ain't nobody missing those. Heh.

She was kind of the ultimate Sam girl, so I can see how she is your preference, @AwesomO4000 It's testament to how much I hate Andre Badd that I would gladly welcome her back in his place.

To me Gamble can be summed up by two scenes juxtaposed - the hooker who forgets payment because Sam is soooo awesome in bed (that`s on the level of Stephanie Meyer`s Edward-fixation via Bella or E.L. James Christian (also in reality Edward) Grey`s fixation via Anastacia) and demon-Lisa doing that mean-but-truthful demon thing where she gleefully tells Dean he was a third-rate lay - and I would also still take her over Andrew Badd (best article typo ever).  

Carver was hit and miss but he was the only showrunner where I would think Dean even had a chance of having an equal role in a Series Finale compared to everyone else. Kripke ultimately glorified his avatar, for Samble, see above, Singer thinks the character of Dean is dumb joke and Badd outright hates him and if he even remembers the Winchesters exist, he goes for Super!Sam.    

[Myrelle]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me Gamble can be summed up by two scenes juxtaposed - the hooker who forgets payment because Sam is soooo awesome in bed (that`s on the level of Stephanie Meyer`s Edward-fixation via Bella or E.L. James Christian (also in reality Edward) Grey`s fixation via Anastacia) and demon-Lisa doing that mean-but-truthful demon thing where she gleefully tells Dean he was a third-rate lay - and I would also still take her over Andrew Badd (best article typo ever).  

Carver was hit and miss but he was the only showrunner where I would think Dean even had a chance of having an equal role in a Series Finale compared to everyone else. Kripke ultimately glorified his avatar, for Samble, see above, Singer thinks the character of Dean is dumb joke and Badd outright hates him and if he even remembers the Winchesters exist, he goes for Super!Sam.    

Sadly, ITA with all of this. Every word. 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me Gamble can be summed up by two scenes juxtaposed - the hooker who forgets payment because Sam is soooo awesome in bed (that`s on the level of Stephanie Meyer`s Edward-fixation via Bella or E.L. James Christian (also in reality Edward) Grey`s fixation via Anastacia) and demon-Lisa doing that mean-but-truthful demon thing where she gleefully tells Dean he was a third-rate lay - and I would also still take her over Andrew Badd (best article typo ever).  

Carver was hit and miss but he was the only showrunner where I would think Dean even had a chance of having an equal role in a Series Finale compared to everyone else. Kripke ultimately glorified his avatar, for Samble, see above, Singer thinks the character of Dean is dumb joke and Badd outright hates him and if he even remembers the Winchesters exist, he goes for Super!Sam.    

Spot on. I watched the first 9.5 seasons unspoiled and without online interaction, and lol'd at both the scenes you mentioned. It was so obvious that she had a lady-boner for "Sam".

Sadly, I also agree with your assessment of Singer and Badd. The latter's disdain for Dean is probably the worst I've ever seen from a showrunner for a main character. He puts Shonda to shame. I fully expect Nougat Baby to get the win, Sam to be his #1, and Dean... wringing his hands prettily and driving the car.

[Aeryn13]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Spot on. I watched the first 9.5 seasons unspoiled and without online interaction, and lol'd at both the scenes you mentioned. It was so obvious that she had a lady-boner for "Sam".

Sadly, I also agree with your assessment of Singer and Badd. The latter's disdain for Dean is probably the worst I've ever seen from a showrunner for a main character. He puts Shonda to shame. I fully expect Nougat Baby to get the win, Sam to be his #1, and Dean... wringing his hands prettily and driving the car.

Ironically, Gamble in Season 3 was the one who introduced Lisa with this little "best week of my life" Dean sexy backstory and had Lilith describe the brothers as "one is really tall and one is really cute". 

So while I think she always was a Sam-girl at heart, she didn`t used to be mean-spirited towards Dean (or Jensen) like in Season 6. So frankly, I always speculated somethink ticked her off in-between. And it was "hell hath no fury" ever since.

Dabb IMO came prepared pre-ticked-off. He comes off as vindictive. 

Weirdly, who was it, Glass? was a writer who apparently liked Dean - or at least young Dean because he tried to weirdly self-insert there, just as a much cooler version of him (he pretty much admitted that in his interviews) - but didn`t like Jensen. He couldn`t help some petty insults to the adult version of the character, apparently solely because of who performed him and ended up having a hard time making that fit with his self insert-boner for young Dean. 

This show has one of the most unluckiest writing history ever. It had some truly good writers but those rather quickly moved on to other things and those that remained and had started out kinda good turned shitty. And in the last few years they only pick up mostly meh choices who get worse by flunkydom.       

I`ve also seen biased writers and showrunners before. Especially some of the CW shows have some of the worst offenders there. But even the worst ones among those usually don`t take potshots like SPN does. Not a single show on the "we are the network of young and pretty people" CW consistently makes "ugly and old" jokes about one of their leads. I mean for example the writers for the Flash apparently hated Oliver Queen as a character and they would (metaphorically) beat on his character every crossover chance they got but not a single one time did they make a stupid "hehe, he so old and unattractive" putdown as if they and the collective audience were blind. Carina Macsomething who used to write highly, highly biased Sam/Jared articles with Dean-putdowns is showrunner of Roswell now and while she is biased as hell towards one character/actor, even she doesn`t stoop so low as to putdown looks. 

Joss Whedon made some jokes about character`s, and by extension actor`s, appearances but those were evenly spaced between all, not mean-spirited and clever and funny. 

[gonzosgirrl]

When you look as good as Jensen does, jealousy (and scorn, if it goes too far) is inevitable,  so writers trying to take their pettiness out on the character is, also, inevitable.  That's where a good showrunner would step in and veto the ugliness. But when that nastiness starts at the top, there's no limit to its runoff. Badd is the nadir of petty little frat boys, IMO.

Edited April 18, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She was kind of the ultimate Sam girl, so I can see how she is your preference, @AwesomO4000 It's testament to how much I hate Andre Badd that I would gladly welcome her back in his place.

Actually she is my preference of the non-Krikpe showrunners, because her plotlines rarely ever relied on one brother being guilty or pitting the brothers against each other. The one plotline she did have in that regard  was short and wrapped up with both brothers coming to a better understanding of each other and each brother getting to have their say. Neither brother was "wrong" or "right," and they both had a legitimate point.

It was also a time in Sam and Dean's relationship where they were more equals, somewhat enjoyed their time together and seemed to get along. They both supported each other. Yes, Dean was depressed and did have a "domestic" plotline, but there were plenty of heroics from Dean: from getting back Sam's soul to killing Eve - not only singlehandedly, but using his smarts to do so (too bad Adam Glass seemed to hate Sam***) - and finally to Dean getting his revenge on Dick Roman... which was handled well, I thought. It wasn't trivialized or made to look badly. Sam supported Dean in his endeavor, and Dean wasn't made to look badly for needing that resolution. Also for the most part, Sam and Dean's characterizations weren't compromised in order to forward the plot. They weren't dumbed down or made to act out of character so other characters could shine. It was obvious that they were the heroes of their own story - together and equally. That's why I enjoyed Gamble's rein as show-runner.

Yes, there was the hooker and Sam incident - though I had an entirely different vibe from that scene - but there was also "Live Free or Twihard" with a newly-vamped Dean who singlehandedly took out an entire vampire nest, including the powerful leader, despite never having fed. In my opinion that was just as over-the-top Dean as the hooker scene was over-the-top Sam, if not more so.

And for the aformentioned Dean "insult" from a demon - so therefore suspect anyway - we also got a dumb-Sam joke from Bobby, so the jibes and over-praise were, in my opinion, given fairly equally.

If that's Gamble being over biased towards Sam, then in my opinion, it was much more charitable than what Carver did to Sam in season 8 and 9. It's not even close.

*** Speaking of which, the demon's insult of Dean in season 6 was at least from a demon. What Adam Glass had Garth say about Sam was just mean, and doubly so since it was coming out of the mouth of one of the nicest, if not the nicest, characters on the show.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me Gamble can be summed up by two scenes juxtaposed - the hooker who forgets payment because Sam is soooo awesome in bed

That wasn't Gamble's episode. That was a Ben Edlund episode.

And as mentioned above, there was "Live Free or Twihard" for the Dean side of things. That episode is on the level of "Red Meat" in terms of Dean pimping in my opinion.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Carver was hit and miss but he was the only showrunner where I would think Dean even had a chance of having an equal role in a Series Finale compared to everyone else. Kripke ultimately glorified his avatar, for Samble, see above,

There was no equal roles for the brothers in Carver's finales that I remember - except maybe season 8 (which was equally horrible for both brothers). In season 9's finale, Sam had almost no role at all. He was unconscious during the big fight while a powered up Dean held Metatron at bay while Castiel and Gadreel helped to defeat him. And in season 10, Sam started an apocalypse while Dean saved the day. Even in season 11, Dean was the main player in the finale. Sam played cheerleader for the group and nurse to Chuck. But at least he didn't cause an apocalypse or get painted as a liar and hypocrite so much better and why I really like season 11.

In the finale that Gamble wrote, Sam and Dean had equal roles in saving the world... and they did it as heroes, not because they were fixing a mess they made, or because they felt guilty, but because it was the right thing to do and because Dick Roman had to be stopped. (Gamble didn't write the season 6 finale. That was a Kripke finale.)

So yes, I think Gamble would write equally for both if she wrote the series finale. I think Carver would write a Dean-centric finale with a big assist from Castiel (if he didn't resurrect Benny to help.)

Yeah, I know. That was snarky. Can't help it. Carver as showrunner pushes my buttons. He could have found a way to highlight Dean without completely trashing Sam's character, but he chose not to, and then he reveled in Sam's downfall. And mocked it. (The "Sam hit a dog" jokes were not funny... especially since he was the one who created that ridiculous scenario to begin with.)

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And as mentioned above, there was "Live Free or Twihard" for the Dean side of things. That episode is on the level of "Red Meat" in terms of Dean pimping in my opinion.

The difference there, of course, is that Dean was under the influence of monster blood--whether or not he fed, he was still a vampire and thus superpowered--and Sam was just a very badly injured human, supposedly near death, in Red Meat.  There's no comparison.  

I have an idea--maybe you can just pretend season 8 never happened, and I'll pretend seasons 12-15 never happened, and we can never mention them again.  There are certainly enough other seasons and episodes to discuss that won't cause nearly as much angst among fans!  😊

[Pondlass1]

Maybe one day the behind the scenes stuff will come out. But probably not. Jensen is nothing if not professional. 

He may not have as much fun on the set of his next gig, but I’m sure he’ll be very much valued when they realize how talented he is. 

[DeeDee79]

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The difference there, of course, is that Dean was under the influence of monster blood--whether or not he fed, he was still a vampire and thus superpowered--and Sam was just a very badly injured human, supposedly near death, in Red Meat.  There's no comparison.  

Exactly right which makes Red Meat even more ludicrous. 

53 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'll pretend seasons 12-15 never happened,

Personally speaking I'm already doing this. ☹️

[AwesomO4000]

56 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I have an idea--maybe you can just pretend season 8 never happened, and I'll pretend seasons 12-15 never happened, and we can never mention them again.  There are certainly enough other seasons and episodes to discuss that won't cause nearly as much angst among fans!  😊

Add season 9 and you've got a deal.

And I'll actually join you in the season 12-15 pretending it never happened. Despite all the supposed Sam-love Dabb is supposedly showing, I actually dislike what he's done to Sam's character.... immensely. I think I've covered that fairly extensively as well 😊.

I might want to pick out "Regarding Dean" and pretend that happened in season 11 though, because I really like that episode. (And maybe "Advanced Thanatology" and "The Thing" too.)

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually she is my preference of the non-Krikpe showrunners, because her plotlines rarely ever relied on one brother being guilty or pitting the brothers against each other. The one plotline she did have in that regard  was short and wrapped up with both brothers coming to a better understanding of each other and each brother getting to have their say. Neither brother was "wrong" or "right," and they both had a legitimate point.

It was also a time in Sam and Dean's relationship where they were more equals, somewhat enjoyed their time together and seemed to get along. *Gamble's episode.

I thought the first half of Season 6 was pretty atrocious. And I think Gamble had a hand in 5.22`s direction to set up the SuperSoulessSam arc for Season 6. The second half of Season 6 was semi-decent.  

But I got to hand her Season 7 where, even though there was the stupid Hellucifer arc for Sam and nothing for Dean, overall narratively the brothers were equal in that year. Equally non-essential. That entire Leviathan storyline could have happened without their involvement at all and they felt like such boring extras in that Season. Those clumsy attempts to shoehorn them into the Leviathan story were almost amusing.  

  

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** Speaking of which, the demon's insult of Dean in season 6 was at least from a demon. What Adam Glass had Garth say about Sam was just mean, and doubly so since it was coming out of the mouth of one of the nicest, if not the nicest, characters on the show.

Well, the Dabb regime certainly took care of this by making that so-called nicest character make it clear how Dean ranks for him as some unworthy POS in that "comedy" scene where he names his kids after Sam and Cas. Dean even being a little hurt was portrayed as a "haha, what a loser" joke at his expense and at this point Dabb got so many to laugh along with him at the character. That far, far, far exceeds Season 6.   

 

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There was no equal roles for the brothers in Carver's finales that I remember - except maybe season 8 (which was equally horrible for both brothers). In season 9's finale, Sam had almost no role at all. He was unconscious during the big fight while a powered up Dean held Metatron at bay while Castiel and Gadreel helped to defeat him. And in season 10, Sam started an apocalypse while Dean saved the day. Even in season 11, Dean was the main player in the finale. Sam played cheerleader for the group and nurse to Chuck. But at least he didn't cause an apocalypse or get painted as a liar and hypocrite so much better and why I really like season 11.

I don`t even think Carver`s Finales were particularly good. In the Season 9 one Cas was the hero, Dean got his ass beat, I consider him and Sam to be equal losers in this one if you get down to it. The Season 10 one had both brothers making asinine choices. Which, to be fair, were helped along by even a primordial being like Death being terminally dumb. 

But when it comes to "final" Finales, I know what Kripke would do - under his leadership came my most hated Finale of all time (well, maybe until the Series Finale airs). And I can take a good guess what Badd would do - probably make it horrifically worse than 5.22.

Gamble, I don`t know, maybe she could do something nominally for both brothers but I would have little faith in that. Carver solely wins for me by process of elimination. Not because I think he would do a particularly good job.   

[FlickChick]

Add me to the group of people who will consider S11 as the end of the series. I know that's where my DVD collection will end. Did I like a few episodes in later seasons? Of course - a few. I'll keep those on my DVR and if necessary, later buy those separate episodes in years to come. I just think that it is terribly sad to feel this way since watching the series since The Pilot. 😞

[FlickChick]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But when it comes to "final" Finales, I know what Kripke would do - under his leadership came my most hated Finale of all time (well, maybe until the Series Finale airs).

Actually, I believe that Kripke's version of the S5 finale was that both brothers would save the world together by overcoming their respective archangels and diving into the cage together. When the series was renewed, Kripke and Gamble had to change the scenario to enable the show to continue. So, I think Kripke would write a series finale to include both brothers. JMO.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, I believe that Kripke's version of the S5 finale was that both brothers would save the world together by overcoming their respective archangels and diving into the cage together.

Although I can understand the need to rewrite the finale once they were renewed I would have rather they did so with the original premise in mind to make both brothers instrumental in ending the Apocalypse. Swan Song is still my least favorite finale for this reason.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

The difference there, of course, is that Dean was under the influence of monster blood--whether or not he fed, he was still a vampire and thus superpowered--and Sam was just a very badly injured human, supposedly near death, in Red Meat.  There's no comparison. 

Well, that's it's own thing and level of straining credulity, because in addition to Dean doing all of those heroics, he also was able to refrain from succumbing to the influence of that monster blood by resisting the urge to feed unlike almost everyone else we'd ever seen before including Gordon. (And that was before Dean knew there was a cure.) Dean had just that much more willpower than everyone else.

So yes, Dean was "super-powered," but he was also starving, so therefore should have been way outmatched by the many, many vampires in the nest who had fed and were therefore at full strength, including an old and powerful leader.

I can admit that Sam being able to do what he did in "Red Meat" was fairly ridiculous, but sorry, for me, there is a comparison. At least Sam had the element of ambush and there were two werewolves (that Sam and Dean do kill as humans on a regular basis). Dean went charging in to the nest - the vamps' home turf - and there were many and he was starving. So even if less ridiculous, not by much, in my opinion.

So yes, different types of ridiculous, but both ridiculous and character pimping. In my opinion anyway.

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I got to hand her Season 7 where, even though there was the stupid Hellucifer arc for Sam and nothing for Dean, overall narratively the brothers were equal in that year. Equally non-essential. That entire Leviathan storyline could have happened without their involvement at all and they felt like such boring extras in that Season. Those clumsy attempts to shoehorn them into the Leviathan story were almost amusing. 

I liked the Hellucifer arc, and Dean had his revenge arc against Dick Roman. You may call it nothing at all,  but for me, considering there was an entire peripheral character associated with Dean created for that plot arc - and I loved Frank, too - it qualifies as an arc.

And I enjoyed not only Dick Roman (*waves to @gonzosgirrl*), but the semi-return to the Monster of the Week type episodes we had. I personally liked the whole season Leviathan arc - rather than the recent cut the season in half and shove two rushed stories into it thing plagued season 6 and that seemed to happen again later on. I enjoyed the stand-alone episodes that had just enough background Leviathan stuff to keep it relevant, and I liked that the resolution took a few episodes to find the answer to getting rid of the leviathans and that it took the cooperation of many (Crowley and the Alpha Vamp) for which Sam and Dean were critical in getting that done, since all of those players had connection mainly through Sam and Dean.

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, I believe that Kripke's version of the S5 finale was that both brothers would save the world together by overcoming their respective archangels and diving into the cage together. When the series was renewed, Kripke and Gamble had to change the scenario to enable the show to continue. So, I think Kripke would write a series finale to include both brothers. JMO.

I agree, but I really liked the season 6 finale and thought both brothers played a crucial role. Many others have complained it was too Sam-centric though, so I don't know.

I know I'd be all for a Kripke finale, but that's just me.

[Aeryn13]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, I believe that Kripke's version of the S5 finale was that both brothers would save the world together by overcoming their respective archangels and diving into the cage together. When the series was renewed, Kripke and Gamble had to change the scenario to enable the show to continue. So, I think Kripke would write a series finale to include both brothers. JMO.

Even then he didn`t have to sign off on a Finale that made Dean THAT superflouus. I mean, the car was way more important than him and the episode made that clear. Nor did Sam have to be THAT OP to easily do away with Lucifer for five minutes, use the rings and pull Michael with him, all by his lonesome while Dean knelt on the ground in awe. There didn`t have to be the gleeful "you are no longer a part of this story" etc. Changing the story didn`t necessitate any of that. And his interviews afterwards? How Dean had to "learn" to love Sam the right away after Season 4 and Sam had to learn apparently nothing? To me that Finale was a freaking ego-trip as a younger brother.  

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Add season 9 and you've got a deal.

And I'll actually join you in the season 12-15 pretending it never happened. Despite all the supposed Sam-love Dabb is supposedly showing, I actually dislike what he's done to Sam's character.... immensely. I think I've covered that fairly extensively as well 😊.

I might want to pick out "Regarding Dean" and pretend that happened in season 11 though, because I really like that episode. (And maybe "Advanced Thanatology" and "The Thing" too.)

Deal!  As a matter of fact, you can throw in much of season 10 (other than maybe the Deanmon eps and Executioner's Song).

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Deal!  As a matter of fact, you can throw in much of season 10 (other than maybe the Deanmon eps and Executioner's Song).

Then what about all of the MOC goodness?!

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Then what about all of the MOC goodness?!

OK, maybe Dark Dynasty and The Prisoner for MoC.  All the rest....nope.  All the stuff with Cole?  Or Claire?  Or Dark Charlie?  Uh-uh.  

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

OK, maybe Dark Dynasty and The Prisoner for MoC.  All the rest....nope.  All the stuff with Cole?  Or Claire?  Or Dark Charlie?  Uh-uh.  

Ok those are good choices 😁