“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is from an interview with Shoshanna and I have to admit this answer about how she can help annoyed me. 

 Dean doens't have much but he's always been the loyal, hunter with the heart on his sleeve who is fiercely loyal.  The guy who will get in anyone's face to protect Sam.   Dean was the leader and the guy who set the mood. 

Now he doesn't even have that.  This honestly sounds like they are writing Eileen as a female Dean.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/supernatural-shoshannah-stern-this-close-eileen-sam-chuck-final-season-interview-1203474955/

I didn't read the whole interview so beware there may be spoilers.

To be perfectly honest, this  interview fell into the tldr category for me; so I skimmed it after a bit and I just kind of felt like she was simply pimping her character and little more.

Maybe she's been told that she will be back as Sam's end story,  but if so, I couldn't care less, at this point.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Myrelle
Spelling

[Harleycat]

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

To be perfectly honest, this  interview fell into the tldr category for me; so I skimmed it after a bit and I just kind of felt like she was simply pimping her character and little more.

Maybe she's been told that she will be back as Sam's end story,  but if so, I couldn't care less, at this point.

I think they are going for Dean's peace coming when he is done having to care for Sam. Whether that is going to come from Sam getting married, having a child, and having to grow up or Dean dying is the only two ways I can see Dean feeling finally done. They have made a point in recent seasons to make it clear that Sam is Dean's baby and in older seasons to show that Dean will always leave his life for Sam.

I agree though, I don't really care what happens to Sam at this point. If someone actually decided to just kill Sam instead of just torturing him it would kind of be a relief to see Dean and Cas free from him. Which is why it can't be Sam who dies, unless they died together. It just wouldn't be sad enough.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

I think they are going for Dean's peace coming when he is done having to care for Sam. Whether that is going to come from Sam getting married, having a child, and having to grow up or Dean dying is the only two ways I can see Dean feeling finally done. They have made a point in recent seasons to make it clear that Sam is Dean's baby and in older seasons to show that Dean will always leave his life for Sam.

I agree though, I don't really care what happens to Sam at this point. If someone actually decided to just kill Sam instead of just torturing him it would kind of be a relief to see Dean and Cas free from him. Which is why it can't be Sam who dies, unless they died together. It just wouldn't be sad enough.

I don't see Dean ever being at peace within his present timeline.

Sam and Castiel are like twins to me in that Dean will never be free to be himself as long as they are involved in his life.

He will always sublimate himself for his loved ones and so Death seems like his only path to any semblance of "peace" AFAIC. 

I just can't ever see that as happening in the SPN version of Heaven.

So what?-Purgatory? The Empty? Another timeline?...

 

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/27/2020 at 4:36 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the media thread:

Al good points.

And interestingly for me, the two scripts we got from Loflin on his own weren't either as balanced or as good either, in my opinion. (See more below).

Completely disagree on "Citizen Fang."

The logic of that script was lacking, at the very least in terms of Sam's characterization. Why would Sam go break Martin out of the hospital rather than, say, get Garth to go with him? Or have Garth hook him up with a sane hunter - since Garth was the "new Bobby" at the time, and the brothers had just recently had a case with him.

It made little sense except that the main point of the episode seemed to be character destruction of Sam, and for that purpose, it worked just fine. At the very least the script was extremely unbalanced.

"Citizen Fang" is on my top 10 list of my least favorite and worst episodes of the series, and it's pretty high up on that list, too.

And Loflin's "Remember the Titans" was just plain bad. And insulting to Greek Mythology.

There were a few Dabb only scripts I really enjoyed, but yes "Reichenbach" was probably the best. "Inside man" was my second favorite - but I happen to love (to hate) and appreciate Metatron, so that helped.

Sam was upset that Dean took a personal day and left him. Sam was jealous to find out that someone helped Dean escape Purgatory and it especially hurt that it was another supernatural creature. It reminded Sam of the time he failed to save Dean from hell however Cas ended up gripping Dean tight and raising Dean from Perdition. We know the two are tightly entwined in Sam's mind because he mentions them together in his anguished whining monologue in Sacrifice. His jealousy of both Benny and Cas is readily apparent in his words.

Sam went with Martin because he wanted someone he could control and he wanted it in the down-lo. Sam is not the good guy in this scenario and neither is Martin. Elizabeth ends up traumatized and Benny loses the stability that he built to help him stay clean. Dean was cruel by sending the text from Amelia however it saved Sam's life. Sam was no match for Benny and Dean knew that. There were also possibly  the vamps that were going the killing still around. Dean was also pissed and who could blame him. 

It is a beautifully written episode.

Remember the Titans was a mixed bag. I liked Prometheus and his memory issues. The iconic virgin goddess sleeping with her Uncle was a mess and Zeus was a dud. It wasn't a great episode.

[Harleycat]

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I don't see Dean ever being at peace within his present timeline.

Sam and Castiel are like twins to me in that Dean will never be free to be himself as long as they are involved in his life.

He will always sublimate himself for his loved ones and so Death seems like his only path to any semblance of "peace" AFAIC. 

I just can't ever see that as happening in the SPN version of Heaven.

So what?-Purgatory? The Empty? Another timeline?...

 

True enough. Dean still has to drink at night to sleep and to tune out in front of the TV to rest. Sam seems fine and is living his best life (rather like a killer sociopath). He probably would never be able to just live with himself, so even dying wouldn't be that restful.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

We know the two are tightly entwined in Sam's mind because he mentions them together in his anguished whining monologue in Sacrifice. His jealousy of both Benny and Cas is readily apparent in his words.

Sam being jealous of Castiel was never a thing until Carver tried to make it a thing in season 8. It came flying out of nowhere to prop up Sam being jealous of Benny - which also made little sense. But of course Sam had to be jealous of Benny, because Benny was just that awesome. *rolls eyes.* Carver loved to highlight his original characters, often to the detriment of the leads. And he wouldn't give it up, even when some of his characters were annoying and the viewers didn't like them. (It's why we kept getting Amelia talked up even after she was gone and why Cole wouldn't go away. Cole was especially annoying, because what an awful character... but of course he still had to get a redemption and there were no consequences for his crappy behavior.)

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is a beautifully written episode.

I'll agree to disagree.

It was unbalanced for no apparent reason and was mainly written as a showcase for Benny. And I wouldn't have minded that so much if in order to highlight Benny, the writing didn't trash Sam in the process. For me there was no point to the episode except to highlight Benny and bash Sam. Why bother giving all of the backstory and melodramatic history for Elizabeth and Benny if we were never going to see her again? Oh, yeah, to show how crappy Sam was to take away her and Benny's relationship.

There was no other point.

And Sam's over the top jealousy didn't even make any sense in terms of his previous characterization - Sam had never shown jealousy towards Castiel, and in fact went out of his way to be nice to Castiel, and was even very fond of Castiel, even when Castiel didn't appear to care for him all that much and sometimes openly insulted him.

So that this episode decided to take that jealousy up to 11 was, in my opinion, pretty unbalanced. It could have used a little of Dabb's influence to tone that crap down, in my opinion.

For those who dislike Sam, I can see why this might be a dream come true episode for them, but balanced it was not, and the characterization - of both brothers - wasn't done well in my opinion. And since characterization is important to me, I can't say that this was a well-written episode. Your miles obviously vary. But the "Citizen Fang" episode thread contains all of the reasons why I - and many, many others - hate the episode, so I'll leave it at that.

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

To be perfectly honest, this  interview fell into the tldr category for me; so I skimmed it after a bit

I like the actress that plays Eileen, but I have to agree. That interview seemed to just go on and on, didn't it? It seemed kind of repetitive and overdone to me.

Also, wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that they had an interview with Andrew Dabb, where he was emphasizing the great importance of having Eileen back on the show (he said that she was there to "ground" the "God-like" Sam with her "real world" perspective.) I feel as if the show is trying to hit me over the head with the importance and wonderfulness of Eileen. And for a character that, let's face it, has played a relatively minor role over the whole 15 years of the show, to receive that much attention right now, at the very end of everything, is kind of off-putting. I mean, I like Eileen okay, but I am starting to feel like they are trying to shove her at me too hard.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that Variety would be doing this long interview and that the character would be receiving this much attention if she weren't going to be a big part of the series finale. Let's put it this way, I find it impossible to believe that they just brought her back to have her die or just disappear from view.

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If they actually gave Dean a truly heroic death and acknowledgment in the Finale, I would have no problem with her being the replacement insofar as hooking up with Sam and them possibly having a kid they could actually name Dean.

We`re at the point where this would be best cast scenario for the show and Dean. 

I agree. I mean, Dean is such a wonderful character and it makes me sad, because he deserves more than to die in the end. He deserves so much more, he deserves peace and happiness. But I agree completely, considering the showrunner and the writers we have now, and considering what awful ending they might come up with, that this would definitely be the best case scenario for Dean that I could hope for.

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In fact, can Dabb write whatever he wants in the Finale and the Arrow writers do all the Dean parts? I would be completely onboard with that. 

I have never watched that show, but now I am curious. Could you maybe, I guess with spoiler tags, tell me what it was about the Arrow finale that you would like to see happen for Dean?

 

[Aeryn13]

40 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 

I have never watched that show, but now I am curious. Could you maybe, I guess with spoiler tags, tell me what it was about the Arrow finale that you would like to see happen for Dean?

 

To be fair it wasn't a fantastically written Finale or show (though the final Season tried a lot of the same nostalgia beats as SPN, just you know, in a really good way but 

Spoiler

the writers did everything they could to acknowledge how much of a hero the main character was, how much he had grown, how much he had inspired people, how much he meant to his family and friends. Seriously it infused every scene and line of dialogue. The episode was a memorial/funeral and it was such an acknowledgment of the character and the show. And he even got happiness in the afterlife. I was legit bawling when a character who hated the Arrow for lots of the show but grew to respect him later, gave a memorial speech.

 

[Bergamot]

Thanks Aeryn! And I agree, that would be the kind of finale that Dean deserves. It sounds as if the Arrow writers did their best at the end to give the characters, as well as the fans that loved them, the respect and appreciation that they deserved. 

Needless to say, I am not expecting anything like that from Dabb.

[Aeryn13]

53 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Thanks Aeryn! And I agree, that would be the kind of finale that Dean deserves. It sounds as if the Arrow writers did their best at the end to give the characters, as well as the fans that loved them, the respect and appreciation that they deserved. 

Needless to say, I am not expecting anything like that from Dabb.

Yes, the Arrow writers tried their hardest to do exactly that. It's also what the SPN folk promised at Comic Con. Ha. I don't think Dabb would even know how to. He just lives in his twitter bubble where his butt gets kissed, no matter what he and the other writers do. And they block every non-sycophantic post.

Btw, if you want to check out Arrow, I could recommend it overall.

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

Quote

What? That wouldn’t be part of the cursed thing, would it? Has Garth ever even met Castiel? He has always had a very strong bond with Dean, so it would have made sense to name a twin after him. That seemed sort of unnecessarily cruel to Dean, and his little hurt face made me sad faced too.

It didn’t fit with the ‘cursed’ idea and it also seemed like it was just there to hurt Dean’s feelings, so I squirmed a bit.

Quote

Awww, Dean. Garth does love you. Not sure everyone involved in the Show does, but Garth? He definitely does. Also, those babies are adorable and the behind the scenes photos of Jared and Jensen juggling babies are beyond adorable.

You know something is wrong when even Fangasm knows something is up.

https://fangasmthebook.com/2020/01/29/supernatural-the-heroes-journey-sort-of/

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

You know something is wrong when even Fangasm knows something is up.

https://fangasmthebook.com/2020/01/29/supernatural-the-heroes-journey-sort-of/

It's obvious to viewers that don't try to handwave every slight against Dean as "aw, I'm sure that the writers/showrunner didn't mean anything by it! It's all in fun!" while fuming when it happens to Sam or Cas. Silly me, that sort of thing doesn't happen to Sam or Cas! All IMO of course.

Edited January 30, 2020 by DeeDee79

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

You know something is wrong when even Fangasm knows something is up.

https://fangasmthebook.com/2020/01/29/supernatural-the-heroes-journey-sort-of/

Let me say, these two ladies love the show - and all of fandom - with a passion. So reading that review makes me so very sad, that even they are seeing Dabb's pettiness strewn about into the story to make our "heroes" - especially Dean, seem like idiots and puppets. It is mean-spirited, and certainly not funny. I really wish that Dabb would read it - maybe someone should send him a copy from that lover of the show.

ETA: Scroll down after the review in the above link and look for two comments from "Mer" - wow, she's pissed and with good reason IMO.

😞

Edited January 30, 2020 by FlickChick
Added thought

[gonzosgirrl]

There's a good chance somebody BTS at the show read that recap, if not Dabb himself.  It woukd be nice if any if them had the interest or the balls to hand it to him. Unfortunately, at this point it's too late to make any difference.  Dabb's vision is in play and that's that. I know Jensen and Jared were pitched the ending, which Jared loved and Jensen came around to. I would bet hard money that they had no idea the terrible,  terrible route they would take to get there. 

[Myrelle]

56 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Let me say, these two ladies love the show - and all of fandom - with a passion. So reading that review makes me so very sad, that even they are seeing Dabb's pettiness strewn about into the story to make our "heroes" - especially Dean, seem like idiots and puppets. It is mean-spirited, and certainly not funny. I really wish that Dabb would read it - maybe someone should send him a copy from that lover of the show.

ETA: Scroll down after the review in the above link and look for two comments from "Mer" - wow, she's pissed and with good reason IMO.

😞

I thought it was telling that Dabb was supposely and seemingly "making fun" of those in the fandom who felt that he has often elevated his OCs at expense of the Winchesters(especially Dean) by doing that exact thing in this episode and what? pretending that he's never actually done it before-ESPECIALLY when he was trying to get his Wayward Sister shit picked up.

What a Class A Asshole.

And I'm more convinced than ever that his Nougatbaby is going to be the big  Savior of the World with Dean only being a sidekick to Jackie-poo's two biggest fans(along with their being his sidekicks also).

As others here have predicted, he's turning Supernatural into the horribly written spin-off that he was denied by network precisely because it was so horribly written.

IOW, yes, I fully believe that his plan was to ruin the show completely on his way out the door and the CW has simply and egregiously allowed him to do it.

And it's like the long-time fandom's worst nightmare come true for the last season when even the Fangasm cheering section can see it happening, too.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Let me say, these two ladies love the show - and all of fandom - with a passion. So reading that review makes me so very sad, that even they are seeing Dabb's pettiness strewn about into the story to make our "heroes" - especially Dean, seem like idiots and puppets. It is mean-spirited, and certainly not funny. I really wish that Dabb would read it - maybe someone should send him a copy from that lover of the show.

ETA: Scroll down after the review in the above link and look for two comments from "Mer" - wow, she's pissed and with good reason IMO.

😞

Wow, who is Mer, 'cuz I think I love her. 😍

But seriously folks, considering that these ladies have been sucking up for 15 years to gain access, they must have REALLY had problems with this episode to dare say anything negative at all.

And to actually notice that Dabb was shitting on Dean in particular is truly amazing. Yeah, sorry, it ain't just a few Dean fans who are fully aware of Dabb's high school level hatred of a fictional character he's supposed to be in charge of bringing to life. It's there in everyone's faces - well, everyone who is left watching. But if this week's ratings numbers are anything to go by, there won't be but a handful of eyeballs left by the end.

Yes, he's burning it all to the ground out of spite and pettiness for not being able to twist the universe into a vehicle for his terrible OCs, and Dean and Sam are paying the ultimate price.

Shame on the CW and WB for allowing him to do whatever he wants. What are they going to do if he How I Met Your Mother's this show's syndication potential after this final season? The WB has made a lot off this show's syndication up to now. I'm sure they'd like to make more - but not if the finale is so bad as to destroy everything that came before., making viewers think there was no point to the entire series.

Edited January 31, 2020 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

Every week I become more and more convinced that Jensen is the one that pulled the plug and the writers are punishing him for it.

[Aeryn13]

The anti-Dean bias was once again super strong. He was the filler who lost even when he won. Saint heroic Sam won even by losing.

Dean is the beach read, Sam is oh-so-wonderful and smart. And of course better at everything than Dean. 

Jesus Christ, they are making it super overt now in every single episode.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

The anti-Dean bias was once again super strong. He was the filler who lost even when he won. Saint heroic Sam won even by losing.

Dean is the beach read, Sam is oh-so-wonderful and smart. And of course better at everything than Dean. 

Jesus Christ, they are making it super overt now in every single episode.

No wonder they can't even get a million viewers anymore. 

[ILoveReading]

Jensen you stayed one season too long.  There will be nothing left of Dean by the end of this season.

 

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen you stayed one season too long.  There will be nothing left of Dean by the end of this season.

 

I think we're pretty much already there.

Though there is nothing to the other characters either, they are hand-puppets, just instead of having a hand up their butts, it is writers' tongues. 

I

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think we're pretty much already there.

Though there is nothing to the other characters either, they are hand-puppets, just instead of having a hand up their butts, it is writers' tongues.

Yes, Jensen should have left at the end of season 14. He made a huge mistake staying for nostalgia and the good of the crew. It would have been so much better if Dabb had Oliver Queen'd his character and Chuckles had killed Dean and not Princess Jackie Poo Sue in the graveyard in the season 14 finale.

And yet, all this collaborative character trashing effort proves is 1) that Jensen pulled the plug on the show, or he's the one everyone is blaming for ending the show; and 2) that every other character on this show is weak as shit considering they all have to be propped up by the constant denigration of Dean Winchester. Without standing on his corpse, they'd be nothing. At least, that's what it appears the entire writing staff is saying.

I hope from here on out in his career Jensen starts to put himself first for a change. He deserves to.

[Harleycat]

57 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

And yet, all this collaborative character trashing effort proves is 1) that Jensen pulled the plug on the show, or he's the one everyone is blaming for ending the show; and 2) that every other character on this show is weak as shit considering they all have to be propped up by the constant denigration of Dean Winchester. Without standing on his corpse, they'd be nothing. At least, that's what it appears the entire writing staff is saying.

I hope from here on out in his career Jensen starts to put himself first for a change. He deserves to.

I actually wonder if it was something that Jared's people out into his contract the way that him being called Chief was a contract agreement. Being the "leader" didn't make his character more popular so instead they are going for just a "better then Dean". And yes, they write Sam to be extremely weak and kind of dumb, but I wonder if that is to spite Jared, who in panels they really seem to not like very much.

[Lastcall]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Yes, Jensen should have left at the end of season 14. He made a huge mistake staying for nostalgia and the good of the crew. It would have been so much better if Dabb had Oliver Queen'd his character and Chuckles had killed Dean and not Princess Jackie Poo Sue in the graveyard in the season 14 finale.

And yet, all this collaborative character trashing effort proves is 1) that Jensen pulled the plug on the show, or he's the one everyone is blaming for ending the show; and 2) that every other character on this show is weak as shit considering they all have to be propped up by the constant denigration of Dean Winchester. Without standing on his corpse, they'd be nothing. At least, that's what it appears the entire writing staff is saying.

I hope from here on out in his career Jensen starts to put himself first for a change. He deserves to.

They conned Jensen big time. They sign 2 year contracts so every odd year they throw him a bone and make it seem that something great is coming up. They featured Dean more prominently in 13 even though it was to pimp the spin off as if his popularity would rub off. Then they pitched him an epic Dean fight where he kills Lucifer and a great Michael story in season 14 (which was a lie). So he signed and realized pretty quickly that he got burned again with the puppet fight and the Michael story designed to get rid of Dean so the better characters could breath. He was stuck so he did the professional thing, he pulled the plug honored the contract and gave them a season and a half to give the show a proper ending. Now I think he is trying to make the best of a bad situation and making a sizzle reel for the future with the John Wick demon fight, the tap dance and so on.

[Myrelle]

From Aeryn in the episode thread...

"Fortuna really was completely dismissive of Dean after "reading" him so her read can`t have impressed her. She laughed and snorted at his comeback to her insult. No idea what she read because it wasn`t why they were there or anything about Chuck. She clearly was surprised to hear all that. 

Which, btw, Dean does get her talking and in the end she loses the first game against Sam but after that she turns to Sam and tells him that "you got me talking...you are good". So even though Dean did that one thing, Sam got the laurels.  

And the kicker in the "you can do everything better" convo? Sam doesn`t even look like he disagrees at all but more like "yeah, totally me". You know when he does look like he disagrees? When Dean says he can beat him at pool. Then Sam looks afronted and as if Dean is delusional. Gee, Sam, even that amount of propping and self-denigrating isn`t enough?

Of course, you`ll notice that Dean didn`t figure out anything about the pool hall or even knew who Fortuna was"

Yeah, the bolded part is what convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this one was mainly just a Sam pimpfest and denigrating Dean is a given for these writers in these type of episodes because apparently Dean just being in a scene sucks all the oxygen out of the room.

And they're doing the same thing with cAsstiel and will likely do it with NougatSue, too.

And it's for this reason, more than any other, that, like other Deanfans I know, I'm now considering skipping the rest of the season, but tuning in for the finale in which, hopefully, they will mercy kill the character.

His is the only death that would really and actually have any true emotional effect on me, in any case; and I actually love watching Jensen Ackles "die".

So that's my big hope for the ending.

Wow. 

That sounds so sad even to me.

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

They conned Jensen big time. They sign 2 year contracts so every odd year they throw him a bone and make it seem that something great is coming up. They featured Dean more prominently in 13 even though it was to pimp the spin off as if his popularity would rub off. Then they pitched him an epic Dean fight where he kills Lucifer and a great Michael story in season 14 (which was a lie). So he signed and realized pretty quickly that he got burned again with the puppet fight and the Michael story designed to get rid of Dean so the better characters could breath. He was stuck so he did the professional thing, he pulled the plug honored the contract and gave them a season and a half to give the show a proper ending. Now I think he is trying to make the best of a bad situation and making a sizzle reel for the future with the John Wick demon fight, the tap dance and so on.

Despite Dabb's pathetic attempts to paint Sam as better at everything than Dean and since the old saying is show don't tell, I want to list the things I think the show has shown Dean as better at either through story or Jensen's acting choices. 

Dean is a better shot. Dean is a better fighter. Dean is a better driver and mechanic. Dean is better at adapting to any environment. Dean is better at making friends. Dean is a better leader. Dean is a better Hunter. Dean is better at pool. Dean is a better cook and he can be these things without taking anything away from Sam. 

Sam is better with computers. Sam is better with sympathy. Sam is better with research. Sam is better with magic and spell work. Sam is better at organizing (different than leading). 

Both have their strengths and weaknesses and together are the perfect hunting team. No matter which character Dabb uses, he will never be able to sell the Sam is better at everything garbage he has been pushing this season. Also, Dean is not the best choice to push this narrative, he has a long history of berating himself and believing he is trash. It just makes Dean more sympathetic. 

 

[Castiels Cat]

31 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Despite Dabb's pathetic attempts to paint Sam as better at everything than Dean and since the old saying is show don't tell, I want to list the things I think the show has shown Dean as better at either through story or Jensen's acting choices. 

Dean is a better shot. Dean is a better fighter. Dean is a better driver and mechanic. Dean is better at adapting to any environment. Dean is better at making friends. Dean is a better leader. Dean is a better Hunter. Dean is better at pool. Dean is a better cook and he can be these things without taking anything away from Sam. 

Sam is better with computers. Sam is better with sympathy. Sam is better with research. Sam is better with magic and spell work. Sam is better at organizing (different than leading). 

Both have their strengths and weaknesses and together are the perfect hunting team. No matter which character Dabb uses, he will never be able to sell the Sam is better at everything garbage he has been pushing this season. Also, Dean is not the best choice to push this narrative, he has a long history of berating himself and believing he is trash. It just makes Dean more sympathetic. 

 

Dean is better at adapting to any environment. Dean is excellent with computers and research. He learned hacking from frank and he can excel at research. He prefers to do other things so he often plays dumb.

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean is better at adapting to any environment. Dean is excellent with computers and research. He learned hacking from frank and he can excel at research. He prefers to do other things so he often plays dumb.

And Sam is an excellent shot and a great fighter. I'm not saying Dean and Sam are bad at the things the other is better at. I'm just saying there are plenty of things where one is better than the other no matter how small the distance. I agree that Dean plays dumb and may believe it himself but that is due to his self esteem issues.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

And Sam is an excellent shot and a great fighter. I'm not saying Dean and Sam are bad at the things the other is better at. I'm just saying there are plenty of things where one is better than the other no matter how small the distance. I agree that Dean plays dumb and may believe it himself but that is due to his self esteem issues.

Which the show never lets him move past or overcome because they never let him or any other characters refute it verbatim, so to me they are saying that Dean is the shitty character Dean says he is.

[Harleycat]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Which the show never lets him move past or overcome because they never let him or any other characters refute it verbatim, so to me they are saying that Dean is the shitty character Dean says he is.

I don't think that is how it works often in real life, so why would it in the show? Sibling dynamics are complex, especially when you have one sibling who has been parentified their entire life. Anyway, it is Dean's job as the leader to bring out the best in his team, and Dean knows that the best way to boost Sam's confidence is to remind him how important he is to Dean. I mean Dean isn't dense, he knows that Sam isn't really important to anyone but him and that Sam doesn't have other people in his life to make him feel confident about himself, just people who could take or leave him.

[DeeDee79]

23 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

I don't think that is how it works often in real life, so why would it in the show?

Because Dean is a fictional character and not a real person. When people become invested in a show and its characters they want to see growth. Dabb and Co. aren't interested in showing Dean nor the people around him that "love him" realize his value. Real life can get depressing which is why TV is a wonderful escape. We want to see our hero ( Dean, for me ) get recognition for how awesome he is. Unfortunately we have a small number of episodes left and I don't think that some of us will get our wish.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Because Dean is a fictional character and not a real person. When people become invested in a show and its characters they want to see growth. Dabb and Co. aren't interested in showing Dean nor the people around him that "love him" realize his value. Real life can get depressing which is why TV is a wonderful escape. We want to see our hero ( Dean, for me ) get recognition for how awesome he is. Unfortunately we have a small number of episodes left and I don't think that some of us will get our wish.

They want to see actual, real, and genuine character growth-not just a character who jumps through hoops for everyone else's favorite so that they can say "Oh!, look, look how much Dean has grown by putting *insert your favorite* in front of himself!" or "look, look! Dean sees that he has an "unexplainable" anger problem and *insert your favorite* never did anything wrong that might have warranted some anger from Dean.

That's not "character growth" for Dean at all and *I* understand that he might never really get any, but how about if the writers acknowledge that sad fact in some way then, instead of giving us absolutely nothing at all on that front.

 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They want to see actual, real, and genuine character growth-not just a character who jumps through hoops for everyone else's favorite so that they can say "Oh!, look, look how much Dean has grown by putting *insert your favorite* in front of himself!" or "look, look! Dean sees that he has an "unexplainable" anger problem and *insert your favorite* never did anything wrong that might have warranted some anger from Dean.

Which is pretty disgusting IMO and makes me dislike the other characters even more.

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which is pretty disgusting IMO and makes me dislike the other characters even more.

IKR?!

IDK. I'm just so fed up with this shit, especially right on top of the cAsstiel garbage.🤬

Edited February 1, 2020 by Myrelle
Spelling

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

IKR?!

IDK. I'm just so fed up with this shit, especially right on top of the cAsstiel garbage.🤬

TBH I haven't even watched a full episode this season. I've been catching bits and pieces and turning the channel out of disappointment. Reading the thoughts of fellow Dean girls as well as some of the Dean friendly reviews I've found online has made me very reluctant to finish out the season. I may just wait for Jensen's next project.

[Harleycat]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Because Dean is a fictional character and not a real person. When people become invested in a show and its characters they want to see growth. Dabb and Co. aren't interested in showing Dean nor the people around him that "love him" realize his value. Real life can get depressing which is why TV is a wonderful escape. We want to see our hero ( Dean, for me ) get recognition for how awesome he is. Unfortunately we have a small number of episodes left and I don't think that some of us will get our wish.

Yes, but I became invested in Dean because Dean acts like a real person. I expect contrived, soap opera ish character development from all the other characters, but Dean keeps the show grounded. He has real issues and emotions, quirks and preferences. He lifts everyone else up because he is saving the whole world and needs everyone else to be at their best. I know the writers don't do Dean well, but Jensen does. He could play all of it sarcastically or with a knowing look to the camera that what he is saying is all crap, but he doesn't. I respect that.

I don't expect everyone who loves him to show that, because no one including Sam seems capable of love. Dean is the only character who is semi emotionally functioning. Sam may end up with the girl at the end, but he will be going through the motions, as I'm pretty sure Sam is completely numb inside. Cas and Jack aren't human and so don't get it, no matter how hard they try to pretend. That leaves all of the actual acting and emotional content on Jensen's very capable shoulders and I like watching him do it.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Harleycat said:

I mean Dean isn't dense, he knows that Sam isn't really important to anyone but him and that Sam doesn't have other people in his life to make him feel confident about himself, just people who could take or leave him.

IDK.  Bobby, Mary, Eileen, and all the AU people kept giving him confidence boosts, telling him how wonderful he is, over and over.  Not to mention Jess and the angry vet who was willing to throw over her husband for him.  Even John paid more attention to him than Dean (per the YED and everyone who got to see their dynamics.😊)  Even in his own mind, when he's in a coma or hallucinating, everyone from Mary to Death has told him how wonderful, admirable and strong he is.   He's always had enough self-confidence to ignore everyone else's advice and go with what he feels is right (no matter how many times he's proved wrong.)  That doesn't sound like someone who needs any more confidence boosts.   

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Yes, but I became invested in Dean because Dean acts like a real person. I expect contrived, soap opera ish character development from all the other characters, but Dean keeps the show grounded. He has real issues and emotions, quirks and preferences. He lifts everyone else up because he is saving the whole world and needs everyone else to be at their best. I know the writers don't do Dean well, but Jensen does. He could play all of it sarcastically or with a knowing look to the camera that what he is saying is all crap, but he doesn't. I respect that.

I don't expect everyone who loves him to show that, because no one including Sam seems capable of love. Dean is the only character who is semi emotionally functioning. Sam may end up with the girl at the end, but he will be going through the motions, as I'm pretty sure Sam is completely numb inside. Cas and Jack aren't human and so don't get it, no matter how hard they try to pretend. That leaves all of the actual acting and emotional content on Jensen's very capable shoulders and I like watching him do it.

That's fine if that's what drew you in. We all enjoy how Jensen brought Dean to life but we want him to be celebrated on screen as much as the other characters. In my own opinion if the other characters are given the accolades for their supposed awesomeness it's not unreasonable to want to see Dean receive the same. Dean shows Sam love because he's family and he has the unconditional love for him that you tend to have for family despite how they may treat you. Is it crazy to think that Dean deserves the same and to want to see him get that love so that we can enjoy it as well? I think not.

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IDK.  Bobby, Mary, Eileen, and all the AU people kept giving him confidence boosts, telling him how wonderful he is, over and over.  Not to mention Jess and the angry vet who was willing to throw over her husband for him.  Even John paid more attention to him than Dean (per the YED and everyone who got to see their dynamics.😊)  Even in his own mind, when he's in a coma or hallucinating, everyone from Mary to Death has told him how wonderful, admirable and strong he is.   He's always had enough self-confidence to ignore everyone else's advice and go with what he feels is right (no matter how many times he's proved wrong.)  That doesn't sound like someone who needs any more confidence boosts.   

Exactly. Sam has been getting ego boosts from day 1.

Edited February 1, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Harleycat]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IDK.  Bobby, Mary, Eileen, and all the AU people kept giving him confidence boosts, telling him how wonderful he is, over and over.  Not to mention Jess and the angry vet who was willing to throw over her husband for him.  Even John paid more attention to him than Dean (per the YED and everyone who got to see their dynamics.😊)  Even in his own mind, when he's in a coma or hallucinating, everyone from Mary to Death has told him how wonderful, admirable and strong he is.   He's always had enough self-confidence to ignore everyone else's advice and go with what he feels is right (no matter how many times he's proved wrong.)  That doesn't sound like someone who needs any more confidence boosts.  

He got most of the AU people killed, so I doubt they have much confidence in him. Bobby thought he was a good hunter but kind of a drug addict loser. Mary went through the motions but Sam was aware that she didn't have real confidence in him, he knew that she would always depend on Dean for everything. Dad saw himself in Sam but was also waiting to see if he needed to kill him or not. And Eileen doesn't depend on him, she just likes having a boyfriend. No one can really make Sam feel good or secure about himself besides Dean. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Mary went through the motions but Sam was aware that she didn't have real confidence in him, he knew that she would always depend on Dean for everything.

We weren't shown this on screen and Mary didn't say anything to support this that I can recall.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

No one can really make Sam feel good or secure about himself besides Dean. 

Actually (to quote various therapists I've been to 😊 ) no one can make Sam feel good or secure about himself except himself.  If he doesn't believe all the propping up he's had over the years (and no, there's no hint that Mary or even Bobby didn't mean what they told him about being wonderful, especially when they also told Dean the same thing when Sam wasn't around) then nothing or no one will help.  Especially since Dean himself has been telling Sam how wonderful he is and how much he loves him his whole life.  

BTW, the AU people certainly had confidence enough in him to follow him, as did all the hunters he led in the raid on the BMoC HQ.  And if Sam needs someone to "depend" on him instead of just enjoying his company in order to feel confident, well, he's more screwed up than I thought.  

[Harleycat]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

We weren't shown this on screen and Mary didn't say anything to support this that I can recall.

Sam has a hissy fit about it one episode, I forget which. Saying that Mary always texted Dean and not him or some nonsense. I remember it because Sam seemed like such a brat to try to make Dean feel bad about him not being as close to Mary.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Harleycat said:

Sam has a hissy fit about it one episode, I forget which. Saying that Mary always texted Dean and not him or some nonsense. I remember it because Sam seemed like such a brat to try to make Dean feel bad about him not being as close to Mary.

That definitely wasn't one of Sam's finer moments but it was him unloading on Dean because he felt that he didn't get his fair share of Mary's attention. In actuality Mary didn't give Dean the time of day either and we've never seen her praise Dean onscreen. She even admonished Dean for wanting to keep Jack from Lucifer while we got this kind of exchange with Sam:

MARY: Sam. Watching you these last few weeks, you know what I've been saying to myself? "This is what he was born to do."

Gag.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

That definitely wasn't one of Sam's finer moments but it was him unloading on Dean because he felt that he didn't get his fair share of Mary's attention. In actuality Mary didn't give Dean the time of day either and we've never seen her praise Dean onscreen. She even admonished Dean for wanting to keep Jack from Lucifer while we got this kind of exchange with Sam:

MARY: Sam. Watching you these last few weeks, you know what I've been saying to myself? "This is what he was born to do."

Gag.

🤮

[Harleycat]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That definitely wasn't one of Sam's finer moments but it was him unloading on Dean because he felt that he didn't get his fair share of Mary's attention. In actuality Mary didn't give Dean the time of day either and we've never seen her praise Dean onscreen. She even admonished Dean for wanting to keep Jack from Lucifer while we got this kind of exchange with Sam:

MARY: Sam. Watching you these last few weeks, you know what I've been saying to myself? "This is what he was born to do."

Gag.

Mary just didn't want her actual friends to die so tried to connect with Sam, or at least that's how I took it. And while she didn't praise Dean she definitely seemed to feel like he was competent enough to have real talks about real issues with him.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Harleycat said:

Mary just didn't want her actual friends to die so tried to connect with Sam, or at least that's how I took it. And while she didn't praise Dean she definitely seemed to feel like he was competent enough to have real talks about real issues with him.

She never had an onscreen talk with Dean about him personally but rather hunting in general, John, or Sam. She didn't seem to give a damn about either of her sons but she definitely held her praise for her youngest. We can agree to disagree on this. I just don't see what you're seeing.

[BlueSapphire]

I find it hilarious that anytime Sam and Castiel have said anything remotely positive to Dean, it’s been criticized in some way.  For all this talk about giving Dean positive affirmation, something’s always wrong when it happens.

[Harleycat]

7 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I find it hilarious that anytime Sam and Castiel have said anything remotely positive to Dean, it’s been criticized in some way.  For all this talk about giving Dean positive affirmation, something’s always wrong when it happens.

Eh, in it's way the entire series is a celebration of Dean, to the point that I don't feel like I actually know that much about Sam or Cas. I don't know how necessary the writers feel like it is to beat it into the viewers heads that Dean is awesome. Everything from the music to the food to the TV that gets highlighted in the show is what Dean likes. All they let the viewers know about Sam's taste is that he likes salads and pretends to like pretentious movies and pod casts but never actually goes to them or listens to them. We know even less about Cas other then he likes Dean, Sam, and Jack and to binge watch television.

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, Harleycat said:

Eileen doesn't depend on him, she just likes having a boyfriend. No one can really make Sam feel good or secure about himself besides Dean. 

And yet Sam has been shown to say that Dean holds him back. And the narrative in many cases has taken Dean off screen and away from Sam, so Sam can grow. Dean himself has been made to say several times that he has to let Sam grow up to Sam and to other characters.

I, for one, despise that Dean is both expected to prop Sam, cajole Sam, and encourage Sam, and at the same time the narrative criticizes him for doing it. Then when Dean criticizes Sam, and now Cas,  and Jack, he's mean and doesn't love him.

And I don't expect the narrative will never not do that to him.

[Myrelle]

50 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

ehhhh They do seem to push this a lot but imo what they show is usually very situational, and almost always has strong undertones of projection or 'saying what they need to hear' as a means to an end, not exactly true empathy.

... yeah. I sad reacted to that because it is bloody sad, I honestly don't know how they get Sam so wrong. Even when it should have been so easy to frame it a different way, they either get so caught up with it serving the narrative or drawing attention to the good things he does to the point he demands acknowledgement, respect, responsibility, trust, or forgiveness, whatever it is that tptb don't want to work to earn -it doesn't feel genuine, and after over 15 years of various situations it is very often hypocritical, which is fine because emotionally charged situations are never really the same, but they have Sam himself call ultimatums and hold expectations or pull false equivalences to support their point so much its just manipulative and shitty.
They have been so focused on telling us how great Sam is, that they accidentally built a character that actually needs the constant, explicit validation, and honestly thinks they are entitled to it before it is earned. Sams self perception has always been a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. He needs other people to tell him hes great, so that he believes he can be great, so that it is worth putting the effort in to try to be great. He completely went off the rails after Dean called him a monster, because by that point he was like fuck it, if I'm already a monster whats the difference. He demands Deans forgiveness and trust before trying to earn it back because hes genuinely afraid he can't, it really is like he needs to know beforehand if his emotional investments are going to be worth the payoff.

yep - Dean always texted Mary. There's a difference. She was pretty shit at connecting with either of them, and its not Dean's fault that Sam put less effort in (cough* like he literally almost always does). There are also scenes where Sam asks Dean if hes spoken to/heard from her recently. Like, dude, she's your mother too, just ask her yourself. 
They do mention that Dean was the emergency contact in Regarding Dean, something that Sam was also very huffy about when he pointed out they'll have to change it, but that doesn't mean Sam's not allowed to talk to her normally. 

It just makes it even more incredulous, that we have had basically no reaction from Sam about Mary, and even the barest reaction to Jack/belphegor. He was so upset about the thought of losing her just a season ago?!? Rowena, a frenemy at best, got more concern from Sam than his own mother! Do tptb honestly think that any display of negative emotions are bad? Deans anger was entirely justified not some anger management issue to be beaten down, and really, all he and Castiel needed to do was acknowledge they both needed time and space and to come back when they were ready, rather than getting pissy that their grieving friend wasn't able to give the support they personally needed (so while it didn't happen on the best terms, Castiel leaving temporarily was probably a good idea tbh). But instead we get Dean grovelling because he wasn't ready to forgive and forget within a week of his mother's death, and apparently having emotions about that is worse than actual murder. And absolutely no comment from Sam at all - obviously we cant be having him showing emotions while we're busy calling them toxic and abusive if they come from Dean. IDK anymore if they're just so terrified of accidentally showing Sam in a negative light that he cant have any "mean" emotions, or if they truly just stopped caring about showing any effort in either brother long ago and Jensen is just better at slipping body cues past the scripts. 
Maybe they were just hell bent on the Castiel drama and didn't want literally everyone on screen being a shit-lord at the same time 😅.

This.

All of it. 

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And yet Sam has been shown to say that Dean holds him back. And the narrative in many cases has taken Dean off screen and away from Sam, so Sam can grow. Dean himself has been made to say several times that he has to let Sam grow up to Sam and to other characters.

I, for one, despise that Dean is both expected to prop Sam, cajole Sam, and encourage Sam, and at the same time the narrative criticizes him for doing it. Then when Dean criticizes Sam, and now Cas,  and Jack, he's mean and doesn't love him.

And I don't expect the narrative will never not do that to him.

And this too.

So much, but I'm past being sad about it now.

Now I'm just Angry! again. 🤬