“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

LORD HAVE MERCY! Now that is a redemption arc in a 11 after going dark in a 10.

According to you it is.

If this was some sort of planned redemption arc, in my opinion if Sam's only redemption is to be shown as wrong for doing reckless things to try to save Dean - while it's perfectly fine for Dean to do reckless things to save Sam - and then have to apologize for something that was out of character for him to do to begin with based on all of Sam's previous character development (not look for Dean) - and then apologize, and that was his only "redemption," I call that rather lame and somewhat condescending.

"Here, we'll make your character do some things that make absolutely no sense, have you feel guilty about it and so overcompensate that you cause an apocalypse because of it... but don't worry you get to redeem yourself by saying you're sorry."

If I was playing a character for years and someone pitched that, in my opinion, crap, to me, I'd be livid.

Because, according to Caver, I guess, Sam's only worth is wrapped up in not wanting to let Dean down (season 😎 and being an apologetic and supportive little brother (season 11.)

That's fairly insulting if you ask me.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

In the cases I cited Sam always made a statement that indicated hubris.

The equivalent of "Only I can do it so only I get to call the shots" sounds like a pretty filled with hubris statement to me.

Quote

 

Oh. And I forgot the most important point about Dean going to kill Metatron. He was barely human at that point. My favorite part of the end of s 9 was Crowley. Crowley was the witness to Dean's disappearing humanity, the only one that suspected and the only one that saw it as a miracle. He takes Dean to a bar and comments on the fact that Dean is not earing and drinking his usual. It's then that he knew... he really knew. Dean was being taken over by the Mark and human Dean was going to be gone. Crowley was there to witness his Swan Song. It was poetic.

Of course Dean was protecting Sam. That much was still there. But it was also Dean's battle to fight. Metatron had more or less called him out mano a manor and  Dean was the only one that stood a chance of taking Metatron down.  It was the Dean sacrifice maneuver which he has done before only this time with the Mark he was pitching for the fight 

 

And Sam was losing his humanity in season 4 also. He actually did become a demon for a brief moment after killing Lilith, so if that's no excuse for Sam's behavior, then it's not an excuse for Dean's either in my opinion.

And according to Death, Lucifer was Sam's fight to fight as well, so I don't see why it was hubris for one to insist the fight be theirs but not the other.

So we're not going to agree on this at all.

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

How many powerful beings (or even people) do you know who do their own dirty work?  Or even just plain grunt work?  Just curious.

Well, I don't personally know any powerful beings, but Lucifer did his own dirty work. Crowley did his own, too.

It just seems kind of hypocritical to claim you're the good guy, because you don't do crappy stuff if it's only because you have someone else do it for you.

Or maybe I should have said "own" their dirty work rather than actually do it. In other words Michael saying "get this done" but not being concerned with how it gets done, in my opinion doesn't absolve Michael of the crappy stuff Zachariah did on his behalf. For me an "well, I didn't know he was doing that," excuse would be kind of lame.

[ILoveReading]

Yeah.  Dabb ain't subtle with this blatent favoritism.

 

[DeeDee79]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

How many powerful beings (or even people) do you know who do their own dirty work?  Or even just plain grunt work?  Just curious.

 

 

On SPN most of the angels had other angels doing their grunt work ( Raphael, Michael, Zachariah, Castiel, Metatron, Hannah, Naomi ) as did the demons ( Crowley, Abaddon, Meg, Lilith ) and the miscellaneous creatures ( Alpha Vampire, Dick Roman, Rowena, Eve, all 4 of the Horseman, etc. ) I could probably name more but you're right that the majority if not all of the powerful beings on SPN and on most shows in general whether they're human or not usually don't do their own dirty work. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, I don't personally know any powerful beings, but Lucifer did his own dirty work. Crowley did his own, too.

It just seems kind of hypocritical to claim you're the good guy, because you don't do crappy stuff if it's only because you have someone else do it for you.

Or maybe I should have said "own" their dirty work rather than actually do it. In other words Michael saying "get this done" but not being concerned with how it gets done, in my opinion doesn't absolve Michael of the crappy stuff Zachariah did on his behalf. For me an "well, I didn't know he was doing that," excuse would be kind of lame.

I probably should have said "how many powerful people have you heard of" and not "know."  All you have to do is take a look in most governments, major corporations and jails to find examples. 

BTW, Crowley had his minions doing most of his dirty work.  Lucifer created demons to do his dirty work.  They both  just do the parts they enjoy.  That's called delegating responsibility. 

And AFAIK, Michael never claimed to be the good guy (or anything except an angel, following his father's orders.)  I don't think he ever felt the need for an excuse.  

 

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

BTW, Crowley had his minions doing most of his dirty work.  Lucifer created demons to do his dirty work.  They both  just do the parts they enjoy.  That's called delegating responsibility. 

Plus Lucifer along with Gabriel got a kick out of seeing the results of their work so they enjoyed doing the torturing themselves. 

 

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And AFAIK, Michael never claimed to be the good guy (or anything except an angel, following his father's orders.)  I don't think he ever felt the need for an excuse.  

Michael even said in The Song Remains The Same that he was "being a good son" which falls in line with the thoughts of all of the angels during season 5.

Edited January 24, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Myrelle]

I think Dean could have somehow gotten through to him about following Daddy's orders all the time.

I've always felt that way.

 

[ILoveReading]

Of course they left the door open for Sam to have done it all on his own.  They made sure to mention that specifically last week.

I really don't get how anyone can say Dabb favors Dean.  It's obvious, to me he hates the character and most likely the actor.

Jensen you stayed one year too long

[Casseiopeia]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Of course they left the door open for Sam to have done it all on his own.  They made sure to mention that specifically last week.

I really don't get how anyone can say Dabb favors Dean.  It's obvious, to me he hates the character and most likely the actor.

Jensen you stayed one year too long

Payback for pulling the plug?

[Myrelle]

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Payback for pulling the plug?

W/O a doubt, IMO.

 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's not okay, it's just meaningless since it's Dean. The writers would have to care and see him as a main character to even think about creating further plots out of that in the first place.

The character isn't "protected" from consequences, he is more or less ignored. That is IMO a big difference.

I don't know.

Dean was just coming off of a season and a half arc that was pretty significant and well plotted and realized, so it's not like he hadn't been doing anything those seasons or that he wasn't the focus of the writers at the time. His arc was arguably the main arc of that season and a half.

And it's not like Sam having consequences for his actions by starting the apocalypse amounted to any big arc for him either, because Amara ended up being linked to Dean, despite the fact that it was Sam who released her. So what was Sam's benefit for having consequences for his actions? None that I could see.

So Dean didn't have any consequences for killing Death, abut he still got the main arc of the next season. Sam got a half season arc, but it was an arc he could have had anyway without having to have caused Amara's release. So he basically had the bad consequences without the benefit of the resolution of those consequences focusing on him.

Unless there's a downside to not having consequences for his actions - which there wasn't really - then I'm not seeing how Dean wasn't making out on the plus side here.

[ILoveReading]

I would bet money Dabb wrote that dance scene with humiliating Jensen in mind. 🖕

But as usual he underestimated him. 

 

[Binns]

I was never a big one for BvJ...until tonight. Naming the twins Sam and Castiel made so little sense that it’s hard to see it as anything but a slam on Dean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Binns said:

I was never a big one for BvJ...until tonight. Naming the twins Sam and Castiel made so little sense that it’s hard to see it as anything but a slam on Dean. 

And then had said baby literally take a dump in Dean's hands.

[Harleycat]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I would bet money Dabb wrote that dance scene with humiliating Jensen in mind. 🖕

But as usual he underestimated him. 

 

I don't know. Jensen shows in interviews all the time that he is a great dancer. He probably was the one to do it because he was the only one who could do it. Just like he was the only one to do comedy in a comedy episode, because everyone else just can't, or at least the writers seem to think that they can't. I mean what, Jared got one "funny" scene during the fight, which he did with Jensen, and then they had him spill stuff in the beginning. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Harleycat said:

Just like he was the only one to do comedy in a comedy episode, because everyone else just can't, or at least the writers seem to think that they can't.

Yeah, it's weird, because I actually used to prefer Jared's comedy much of the time in the early seasons: "Bad Day at Black Rock," "Changing Channels," ("Should I honk?" made me laugh so hard I missed a bit of what came next), and "The French Mistake," ("I bought part of a dead person.") for example... but it could be because his humor is often dry humor - like even in "Hollywood Babylon" his "Maybe the ghosts are haunting the movie because they think it sucks," makes me smile every time. Also "Who doesn't have salt? Low sodium freaks!" Oh also loved "Plucky Pennywhistle's..." especially the subtler stuff "Well at least I'll see it coming "- hee! Oh and "Season 7, Time for a Wedding's" sock muffled "F^ck You!" was perfect. (Still can't believe they got away with that - and no, close captioning, that's not what he said.)

But starting in the Carver era, they didn't do comedy as much, especially that more subtle stuff from Jared that I like best. Probably my favorite funny thing from that era was Sam warming his hands over the burning corpse. Loved that! "Fan Fiction" was pretty good also. Season 9 was just generally depressing.

[7kstar]

In some ways Jensen has been allowed to shine.  He's doing comedy, crazy dance numbers, show off his singing skills and even his music.  So he does have things that he can show to someone new.  He can even pull out dramatic moments out of bad writing.

Jared is stuck.  He isn't able to rise above the bad writing.  They really haven't given him that much but he has a new show...so that will either do well or crash and burn.  But his saving grace is that it is on CW and they might give him a season or two to build an audience.  If the SP fans try it and he can get half...who knows.    To be honest I'm a little worried about Jared because he will be dealing with pressures he hasn't had in a very long time.  Health wise he is looking too thin.  Not a healthy thin.

In this last ep "The Heroes' Journey" what did Jared really do other than show he can fall and do puppy dog eyes?  I don't have a memorable moment for him.  Jensen only has the dance scene.  The dance scene is the only part worth watching again for me.  Garth's part isn't really something I want to watch again.  I really hate the over the top teeth for the werewolves.  I liked it when it was more subtle.  Now the special effects take me OUT of the show.

This writer just shows they don't have a clue about long term fans...I wouldn't read it if this sentence makes you want to poke the writer's eyes out.  But it does show what is wrong with the show today.

https://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-15-episode-10-meta-jokes-references/

Quote

In a hilariously self-referential episode, Supernatural took one last opportunity to poke fun at itself before the show comes to an end. From one-line gags admitting the Leviathans weren't great villains to an episode where Dean and Sam Winchester played Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki, Supernatural has never shied away from making jokes at its own expense, and there are a number of famously meta episodes scattered throughout Supernatural's history. With the current season 15 being the show's last, Supernatural recently took the time to mock its own tropes, quirks and inconsistencies - and it was certainly a treat for longtime fans.

This tells you all you need to know on whether you can stomach the article or not.  I'm sorry but this last ep isn't that memorable for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

Anyone else find it moronic ironic that Sam guilted Dean out of the Malak box, literally beating it into him that he shouldn't give up, that [Sam] had faith in them, so why couldn't Dean? And then believed in Chuck's story, gave up and had no faith in them? Just me?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anyone else find it moronic ironic that Sam guilted Dean out of the Malak box, literally beating it into him that he shouldn't give up, that [Sam] had faith in them, so why couldn't Dean? And then believed in Chuck's story, gave up and had no faith in them? Just me?

Because Dean is a quitter.  Sam is the one who's always had faith, which means if *he* loses faith, all is lost and they may as well give up. <insert gag emoji here>

Edited January 24, 2020 by ahrtee

[Harleycat]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anyone else find it moronic ironic that Sam guilted Dean out of the Malak box, literally beating it into him that he shouldn't give up, that [Sam] had faith in them, so why couldn't Dean? And then believed in Chuck's story, gave up and had no faith in them? Just me?

Sam as they write him now isn't too quick on the uptake of new information. In 1 to 2 episodes it will occur to him to question it and his faith in them will be restored, probably at the exact moment that Dean thinks that all is lost. If the current writers are nothing else they are consistent.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, 7kstar said:

In some ways Jensen has been allowed to shine.  He's doing comedy, crazy dance numbers, show off his singing skills and even his music.  So he does have things that he can show to someone new.  He can even pull out dramatic moments out of bad writing.

Jared is stuck.  He isn't able to rise above the bad writing.  They really haven't given him that much but he has a new show...so that will either do well or crash and burn.  But his saving grace is that it is on CW and they might give him a season or two to build an audience.  If the SP fans try it and he can get half...who knows.    To be honest I'm a little worried about Jared because he will be dealing with pressures he hasn't had in a very long time.  Health wise he is looking too thin.  Not a healthy thin.

In this last ep "The Heroes' Journey" what did Jared really do other than show he can fall and do puppy dog eyes?  I don't have a memorable moment for him.  Jensen only has the dance scene.  The dance scene is the only part worth watching again for me.  Garth's part isn't really something I want to watch again.  I really hate the over the top teeth for the werewolves.  I liked it when it was more subtle.  Now the special effects take me OUT of the show.

This writer just shows they don't have a clue about long term fans...I wouldn't read it if this sentence makes you want to poke the writer's eyes out.  But it does show what is wrong with the show today.

https://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-15-episode-10-meta-jokes-references/

This tells you all you need to know on whether you can stomach the article or not.  I'm sorry but this last ep isn't that memorable for me.

I thought Jensen shown in other little moments as well particularly when Baby failed him and he managed cartoonish comedy when fighting the big vampire. The thing is though... I am not sure comedy was the correct tactic when your life was at stake.

Hot mess. Not at all up to Edlund or Robbie.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:55 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know.

Dean was just coming off of a season and a half arc that was pretty significant and well plotted and realized, so it's not like he hadn't been doing anything those seasons or that he wasn't the focus of the writers at the time. His arc was arguably the main arc of that season and a half.

And it's not like Sam having consequences for his actions by starting the apocalypse amounted to any big arc for him either, because Amara ended up being linked to Dean, despite the fact that it was Sam who released her. So what was Sam's benefit for having consequences for his actions? None that I could see.

So Dean didn't have any consequences for killing Death, abut he still got the main arc of the next season. Sam got a half season arc, but it was an arc he could have had anyway without having to have caused Amara's release. So he basically had the bad consequences without the benefit of the resolution of those consequences focusing on him.

Unless there's a downside to not having consequences for his actions - which there wasn't really - then I'm not seeing how Dean wasn't making out on the plus side here.

Sam had a redemption arc in which he recognized that he needed to change his behavior after seeing the death he had caused. He was shown how his actions hurt people by 2 supernatural entities one of which was scarred by Sam's treatment of him. Sam apologized to him and eventually Sam apologizes to Dean. It's called character growth and it was long overdue into. That is what Sam got out of it. It is the proper redemption arc he never received previously because he just shrugs and doesn't feel guilty.

Dean generally doesn't make the BIG cosmic mistakes and Dean generally feels the weight of the world in terms of guilt. 

That said. Season 13 was a different story for him but of course they threw it all away in season 14.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/23/2020 at 8:29 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

According to you it is.

If this was some sort of planned redemption arc, in my opinion if Sam's only redemption is to be shown as wrong for doing reckless things to try to save Dean - while it's perfectly fine for Dean to do reckless things to save Sam - and then have to apologize for something that was out of character for him to do to begin with based on all of Sam's previous character development (not look for Dean) - and then apologize, and that was his only "redemption," I call that rather lame and somewhat condescending.

"Here, we'll make your character do some things that make absolutely no sense, have you feel guilty about it and so overcompensate that you cause an apocalypse because of it... but don't worry you get to redeem yourself by saying you're sorry."

If I was playing a character for years and someone pitched that, in my opinion, crap, to me, I'd be livid.

Because, according to Caver, I guess, Sam's only worth is wrapped up in not wanting to let Dean down (season 😎 and being an apologetic and supportive little brother (season 11.)

That's fairly insulting if you ask me.

The equivalent of "Only I can do it so only I get to call the shots" sounds like a pretty filled with hubris statement to me.

And Sam was losing his humanity in season 4 also. He actually did become a demon for a brief moment after killing Lilith, so if that's no excuse for Sam's behavior, then it's not an excuse for Dean's either in my opinion.

And according to Death, Lucifer was Sam's fight to fight as well, so I don't see why it was hubris for one to insist the fight be theirs but not the other.

So we're not going to agree on this at all.

There is a difference between forsaken one's brother because you were seduced by a demon who told you that only you can stop Lucifer because you are stronger than Dean and you suck down their blood repeatedly knowing it is wrong. Sam knew he was betraying Dean and knew drinking demon blood was wrong.

AND

Feeling depressed and despondent because I your brother said he never wants to see you again and you believe him and Crowl6tells you he knows how to kill Abanddon the unkillable knight of Hell. He takes you to see Cain whom Crowley clearly fears and who is a fierce killer of demons. Dean learns he needs the Matk of Cain to kill Abaddon but there is a burden with the mark. Dean doesn't care because Dean is depressed,, suicidal and wants to do something good or die trying. By the time the Mark takes over it's too late. He didn't know what he was signing up for.

APPLES AND ORANGES

When a character has spent their entire life looking out for their younger brother and protecting them it is natural for them to prevent them from being hurt... IT IS NOT HUBRIS. Sam would have been slaughtered by Abaddon or Metatron. 

If that character is being controlled by an ancient magical symbol so powerful it is changing him, makes him immune to magic, drives him to a frantic bloodlust, makes him unable to eat and resurrects him to a demonic hybrid. IT IS NOT HUBRIS. Dean was jonesing for a kill like a drug.

Dean and Sam are not the same character. They were raised differently and have different psychological issues and fundamental behaviors. The writing used to reflect this. It is not one size fits all.

And yeah. Chuck was right. Sam had to have known that drinking demon blood was all kinds of wrong yet he did it again and again and again... And he drained the life out of Cindy. That's yet another human sacrifice on Sam's hands... one which lead to Lucifer rising.

It's just not comparable to Dean getting a painful arm tattoo to wield a knife to kill a Knight of Hell rhat was the season's very big bad. The only downside Dean saw was possibly a life alone being very badass and a singular threat to demons or dead.

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, 7kstar said:

In some ways Jensen has been allowed to shine.  He's doing comedy, crazy dance numbers, show off his singing skills and even his music.  So he does have things that he can show to someone new.  He can even pull out dramatic moments out of bad writing.

Jared is stuck.  He isn't able to rise above the bad writing.  They really haven't given him that much but he has a new show...so that will either do well or crash and burn.  But his saving grace is that it is on CW and they might give him a season or two to build an audience.  If the SP fans try it and he can get half...who knows.    To be honest I'm a little worried about Jared because he will be dealing with pressures he hasn't had in a very long time.  Health wise he is looking too thin.  Not a healthy thin.

In this last ep "The Heroes' Journey" what did Jared really do other than show he can fall and do puppy dog eyes?  I don't have a memorable moment for him.  Jensen only has the dance scene.  The dance scene is the only part worth watching again for me.  Garth's part isn't really something I want to watch again.  I really hate the over the top teeth for the werewolves.  I liked it when it was more subtle.  Now the special effects take me OUT of the show.

This writer just shows they don't have a clue about long term fans...I wouldn't read it if this sentence makes you want to poke the writer's eyes out.  But it does show what is wrong with the show today.

https://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-15-episode-10-meta-jokes-references/

This tells you all you need to know on whether you can stomach the article or not.  I'm sorry but this last ep isn't that memorable for me.

So according to this review Garth named his twins Sam and Castiel as a "gag" making "fun" of the "trope" that Dean "gets left out".

So I have to wonder, since we've gotten no other explanation for it, if that's what Dabb was going for, and if so-Fuck Him very much.

And as someone else said somewhere-I'm pretty sure that it's this kind of writing and the thought process behind it that ended the show.

So congrats on writing yourself out of a job in that way, dumb ass.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[gonzosgirrl]

From Supernormal thread (and today I feel the irony of that thread title)

37 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I don't really think that comment needs to be hidden, but you're right, how eye-opening that the clip Jensen chooses to use as funny Dean is from all the way back to season 4, his favorite season. You'd think he would have used a clip from this week's episode, but nothing, not even the dance number. Though I guess that's strictly for his sizzle reel as evidence he can pick up dance moves in his sleep.

But it's interesting how a lot of fans at the time hated Yellow Fever. I actually never did, I thought it was funny and yet still had that heartbreaking poignant moment with imaginary Lilith. Jensen was completely OTT, but in that episode it worked because the writing at the time was, you know, good. Compared to now it was really really REALLY good. And there was actually a point to the episode.

Happy Birthday Dean Winchester!

Yup. The reasons this show is ending become clearer by the day. 

I love how much Jensen loves Dean.

The only thing I didn't like about YF is the "the ghost goes after dicks, therefore Dean is a dick' thing. The performances were great though  and the story, compelling. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The only thing I didn't like about YF is the "the ghost goes after dicks, therefore Dean is a dick' thing. The performances were great though  and the story, compelling. 

At least Kripke had the decency to speak out after the episode so the audience wasn't left with the impression Dean was a dick.  

My issues with yellow fever was Bobby and Sam.  They were the dicks.  They acted annoyed that they had to save Dean and didn't really seem to be in any real hurry despite Dean's ticking clock.   Not surprisingly this is a Dabb episode. 

I did like Dean's crazy people speech. 

But overall I disliked the first episode we had dealing with Dean's hell trauma was a comedy ep.  I felt like they were mocking Dean's fears.  Maybe it didn't mean to but as usual, Dabb sucks and takes an interesting concept but doesn't know how to put it together.

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The reasons this show is ending become clearer by the day. 

There was a reason Jared compared it to putting a dog down.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

At least Kripke had the decency to speak out after the episode so the audience wasn't left with the impression Dean was a dick. 

Yeah, that was interesting how they used to actually care what the audience thought or was upset about at the time.

I'm sure the insinuation that Dean is a dick came from Dabb, no question. And trying to blow off the seriousness of Dean's post-Hell trauma would have been a Dabb thing too. But the script is still somewhat balanced by Loflin, as I pointed out in the other thread. No, not as much as it would be in some of their other scripts, but compared to the shit show we got this week, YF looks brilliant by comparison now.

[Harleycat]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Yeah, that was interesting how they used to actually care what the audience thought or was upset about at the time.

I'm sure the insinuation that Dean is a dick came from Dabb, no question. And trying to blow off the seriousness of Dean's post-Hell trauma would have been a Dabb thing too. But the script is still somewhat balanced by Loflin, as I pointed out in the other thread. No, not as much as it would be in some of their other scripts, but compared to the shit show we got this week, YF looks brilliant by comparison now.

To be fair Dean used to point out that he is a dick all the time in the early seasons, so it made sense that they would be poking fun at him being one. That was when they were conscious of pointing out that hustling pool, credit card fraud, and womanizing were not good life choices. 

I agree, this episode was poorly done.

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

To be fair Dean used to point out that he is a dick all the time in the early seasons, so it made sense that they would be poking fun at him being one. That was when they were conscious of pointing out that hustling pool, credit card fraud, and womanizing were not good life choices. 

I agree, this episode was poorly done.

Dean putting himself down because he is whacked perspective of himself is not the same as the narrative gleefully agreeing with him. And in Yellow Fever, Sam and Bobby acted like mega-dicks yet neither were they self-aware enough to get of their own high-horses and acknowledge that nor that the narrative put them in their places for once. 

Credit card fraud isn`t nice, hustling pool, well, if you play against someone for money because you think you will win, you can`t whine and cry later when they are better. Boohoo, take some personal responsibility. Womanizing? As long as it is all consensual, I don`t see the problem. Even the ridiculous stories like "I`m a talent scout or something" that he used to pull, the women were a) smart enough to see through that and wanted to have sex with a hot guy anyway or b) were not above sexing a hot guy because of their own shallow goals. The second group gets the same "boohoo, take some responsibility" from me. 

As a woman I have to say US shows still often portray the female libido as something that doesn`t exist and pearl-clutching over those evil womanizing guys who take advantage of the hapless damsels. That drives me nuts. 

Same when in movies/TV it gets portrayed as so evil and skeevy when guys have "locker room talk" where they completely objectify women. Yes, sure, it is skeevy but the Supernatural fandom (as well as any other female-dominated fandom) is often openly skeevy and objectifying on twitter over the actors. They get grabbed and pawed at conventions. Do people even realize how women talk amongst themselves about hot guys? I think some guys would run away in terror if they heard.    

[Harleycat]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean putting himself down because he is whacked perspective of himself is not the same as the narrative gleefully agreeing with him. And in Yellow Fever, Sam and Bobby acted like mega-dicks yet neither were they self-aware enough to get of their own high-horses and acknowledge that nor that the narrative put them in their places for once. 

Sam and Bobby were in general often dicks, made worse by the fact that they didn't have the self awareness to realize it. I don't think Dean's perspective was that warped. He had the morals and self awareness to not be proud of his actions. He put them down as much as he defended them. I think the show was more aware at that time that this is a show for young viewers. Sleeping with women and then never seeing them again wasn't something that Dean was proud of. He wouldn't be as attractive as a man if he was.

The current Dean and Sam are apparently fine with being squatters who essentially still steal other people's money, just with an untraceable never fail credit card. There is rarely any acknowledgement of this not being a great way to live. At least Dean used to have some self awareness, now he is as dumbed down as Sam.

[Aeryn13]

12 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Sam and Bobby were in general often dicks, made worse by the fact that they didn't have the self awareness to realize it. I don't think Dean's perspective was that warped. He had the morals and self awareness to not be proud of his actions. He put them down as much as he defended them. I think the show was more aware at that time that this is a show for young viewers. Sleeping with women and then never seeing them again wasn't something that Dean was proud of. He wouldn't be as attractive as a man if he was.

The current Dean and Sam are apparently fine with being squatters who essentially still steal other people's money, just with an untraceable never fail credit card. There is rarely any acknowledgement of this not being a great way to live. At least Dean used to have some self awareness, now he is as dumbed down as Sam.

I think the majority of women wanted the exact same arrangement. One night stands are not inherently evil. They are not my thing but women, same as men, just enjoy sex sometimes and don`t want to see the person afterwards. I don`t judge that at all, as long as it`s consentual.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

The lack of a writers room is a tragic and huge omission on the part of tptb these days and has clearly had a huge negative effect, especially recently. 

So many retcons and lol-canon, and so much of it doesn't even serve any purpose, I have to believe a fair chunk is accidental. I have a certain degree of patience for retcons where a contradiction can't be overcome and something needs to happen, or simply because there's so much lore now.

But there are so many random "pet" threads like Billies books and Castiel's deals which are only brought up when certain writers are involved (or if they're brought up enough at conventions and turned into fan service), so many dropped storylines because noone else cares - or maybe a writer decided to fly an idea to see how it goes over - or maybe dabb changes his mind after seeing the product, writers tasked with closing threads or removing characters introduced by someone else get it entirely wrong because they don't understand the original premise or characterisation, and even the most basic facts like Lucifer being younger - something everybody should have known, are completely forgotten. 

We had less episodes this season and yet it still feels like they're just pissing away the episode time except for the one or two plot points they were obviously told to include, and which don't even flow. And yet, I'd put money on the finale being pulled out of someones ass in the 11th hour with elements that would have definitely benefited from maybe not coming out of nowhere. 

If Dabb can't be fucked actually knowing canon and vetting all the scripts that go though him properly, he should have a system in place that does it for him. Superwiki has already done all the goddamn work for them! If they all physically cant work together well enough to create a cohesive story... well thats why the show is dying slowly and painfully 

They brought up Billie's books and Dean's fate in s 14 Nihilism, connected the change in Dean's fate to the choices he made in a 13 that Billie warned him against. These choices not only lead him to opening the rift to AU Apocalypse world, they lead to a series of events which ended with Dean saying yes to AU Michael. What came next was the cosmic equivalent of a very very bad not good end of everything.

So in s 14 Ouroboros, just a few episodes later, the writers inexplicably threw out more than a seasons' worth of character arc and mytharc to please the Riverdale crowd and have Just Jack bounce around and henmorage ratings. Well it was inexplicable until Eugenie said that their audience was the Riverdale crowd at Comic Con 2019. 

The President of the CW was behind J2. The majority of the fans judging by the tanking numbers were watching for J2. The show fell apart when the writing no longer supported the Winchesters or J2 and then J2 declined to continue. Now the angry writers punish them.

LOL!Canon which is a nice way of saying something is noncanical started in earnest with Eugenie  who created rogue reapers and reapers as Angel's. Now they just fall it NUcanon and brag about following the NUcanon. She is no better at writing character or tone or mytharc either although begrudgingly she has improved since seasons 8-9 which during which time her episodes were whiplash inducing.

[Harleycat]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the majority of women wanted the exact same arrangement. One night stands are not inherently evil. They are not my thing but women, same as men, just enjoy sex sometimes and don`t want to see the person afterwards. I don`t judge that at all, as long as it`s consentual.

Yes, but the show isn't about those women and has never in my opinion implied that it wasn't just as fun for them as it was for Dean. I don't think Dean thinks he's evil, just that it isn't the best choice to be making. It doesn't really make him happy. Just about the only time Dean was happy with his love life was when he was with Lisa.

[Castiels Cat]

From Supernatural Media Thread... 

Replying to several posts. I also deleted replies to repost here because I realized the discussion is off thread.

Season 6-7 was the closest I got to wondering if Destial romantic subtext would become textual because Dean had his eyes closed shut and he mourned that loss  long and hard and he worked on Baby long and hard. Loads of sublimation. Then the obsession with the telenovelas. The virile manifestation of the divine. The reaction to Cas being alive and living with a woman. It was all unique.

Carver killed it with the double tap of Purgatory and Naomi and then tried to pair Cas up with Sam. Almost everyone pairs best with Dean. Eileen is the exception. And Yes. Rowena and Sam have chemistry too.

I think Dean and Crowley had great chemistry. Sam is only alive because of the relationship Crowley had with Dean.

Dean and Cas had amazing chemistry. They tried to push Sam and Cas but it never worked imo.

The writers shifted the storylines of Dean and Cas apart deliberately.

Cas was designed to be a follower like all Angel's. His introduction was thrilling and he was heaven's Soldier.  

Then as the profound bond develops he changes alliances and begins to follow Dean. It's a pivotal moment in their relationship and for TFW. Likewise in season 6 the drama is heightened by the fact that Dean's absolute trust in Cas is betrayed. The irony is that Cas believes he is honoring Dean and Dean's sacrifices through his actions. The entire A plot of the season really hinges on their relationship.

Then in s 7, Cas' actions lead to disaster and Cas appears to die. Dean mourns hard and we get our first hardcore Dean fixing Baby montage as a metaphor for his grief. Cas comes back broken and unwilling to fight at first. Then they end up in Purgatory where Cas immediately abandons him without a word. Dean risks dying even though he has a way out and stays until he finds Cas only for Cas to abandon him again.

Cas returns and chooses heaven. Naomi is interfering with him and Metatrim manipulates him. He cannot kill Dean. He creates another terrible situation and loses his grace.

And still stays away from Dean. The writers try to make Samstiel happen. We enter the phase of Castiel's discontent. Cas gets most of his info from Sam, stops talking to Dean and is disapproving a lot. No wonder Crowley thought he had a chance.

Oh and he's trying to be heaven's guy for a while again.

And then there's Jack. Once he touches Kelly's tummy he pledged allegiance to Jack. That's his priority now. Mary's dead and Dean had to apologize for grieving and being angry that she was hanging with a volatile and dangerous supernatural being because Cas did not tell them what he knew.

So... The writers just threw it away. I don't think they ever knew what to do with Castiel. They kept him because he was popular but they cou6figure out a niche for him. It's weird. Crowley had such a niche that they have thrown 2 faux Crowley demons at us. They need him however they burned that bridge.

The Destiel friendship was fine. Seasons 5-7 revolved around it. It gave those seasons additional heft. Season 6 was based on their emotional bond. I don't understand tossing it out. 

My guess is that someone was tired of Destiel fans or somebody thought Dean was getting too much attention. IDK. Singer let's brain seems to occupy a very small box.

[Castiels Cat]

Replying to FlickChick on thread about Dabb writing Comic Books and why would they pick him to be showrunner.

-------

Everyone else left and he had seniority. Graphic novels/comic books should give one a solid grounding in classic storytelling. The origins of the genre married classic heroes journeys with science fiction. Dabb knows the basics. 

After Carver left the characterizations became regressive. They went back to simplistic bullets to define the brothers and Dean became the "brawn" in Singer's words, which meant they just threw out seasons worth of Dean being Dean to have him be dumb, clueless, and the butt of the joke. This was especially frustrating when it was a reference he knew previously. At the same time they took away skills he had and gave them to Sam presumably because they were "smart" skills; ie.: hacking which he learned in s 7, witchcraft which he had used before Sam and research which he used to do well half of the time. 

I remember Dean coming back from Purgatory oozing that apex hunter vibe. It lasted until Dabb took over with "Red Meat".

[Casseiopeia]

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Everyone else left and he had seniority.

That may be true but they brought in Carver after Gamble and he hadn't been with the show for years even though Dabb had been there since S3?  The J's were still on board for more seasons after S11, Dabb had already proven he had no clue how to write for his own show with Bloodlines. There was no reason they couldn't have brought someone else in to run the show.

[Castiels Cat]

15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That may be true but they brought in Carver after Gamble and he hadn't been with the show for years even though Dabb had been there since S3?  The J's were still on board for more seasons after S11, Dabb had already proven he had no clue how to write for his own show with Bloodlines. There was no reason they couldn't have brought someone else in to run the show.

Perhaps they tried and failed.

Aren't there rumors about toxicity?

There have been some surprising turnovers in the writers room of senior talent since Singer hired his wife.  I rather suspect that she is the problem. She is ignorant of or doesn't respect the show's history and canon and senior writing staff started leaving. Also from the outside it looked like her scripts could not be exited as in nepotism prevented them from correcting her work.

They lost both Adam Glass who headed the writers room and Robbie Benson who followed him I believe. Loflin left too. Newer writers came and went pretty quickly. The end result is instability, Eugene's rise as well as Berens and a revolving door of newbies.

Dabb and Berens were focused on Wayward Sisters giving Eugenie the opportunity for Just Jack.

Carver was an excellent writer and an experienced showrunner and he really could not solve this problem completely either. Without a solid writing team and creative control over those writers... this is what happens when one is mediocre with an axe to grind.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Perhaps they tried and failed.

Aren't there rumors about toxicity?

There have been some surprising turnovers in the writers room of senior talent since Singer hired his wife.  I rather suspect that she is the problem. She is ignorant of or doesn't respect the show's history and canon and senior writing staff started leaving. Also from the outside it looked like her scripts could not be exited as in nepotism prevented them from correcting her work.

They lost both Adam Glass who headed the writers room and Robbie Benson who followed him I believe. Loflin left too. Newer writers came and went pretty quickly. The end result is instability, Eugene's rise as well as Berens and a revolving door of newbies.

Dabb and Berens were focused on Wayward Sisters giving Eugenie the opportunity for Just Jack.

Carver was an excellent writer and an experienced showrunner and he really could not solve this problem completely either. Without a solid writing team and creative control over those writers... this is what happens when one is mediocre with an axe to grind.

 

Adam Glass needed to go. I have no idea how he became head writer almost as soon as he joined SPN.  All Dogs was hideous and he leap frogged over Dabb for the position. Dabb took over after Glass left. Robbie Thompson left after Carver did. They could have brought in someone else but I think by S12 the budget was pretty much slashed. 

As far as toxic there is really only one disgruntled ex producer who was bitching about the atmosphere because he didn't get a raise. Otherwise everyone who guest stars or directs or whatever has said that the set, cast and crew are the best to work with. Even now. 

Dabb has had a chip on his shoulder (I believe) ever since he was looked over for Glass and then for Carver. He's petty, uninspired and vindictive.

[Castiels Cat]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Adam Glass needed to go. I have no idea how he became head writer almost as soon as he joined SPN.  All Dogs was hideous and he leap frogged over Dabb for the position. Dabb took over after Glass left. Robbie Thompson left after Carver did. They could have brought in someone else but I think by S12 the budget was pretty much slashed. 

As far as toxic there is really only one disgruntled ex producer who was bitching about the atmosphere because he didn't get a raise. Otherwise everyone who guest stars or directs or whatever has said that the set, cast and crew are the best to work with. Even now. 

Dabb has had a chip on his shoulder (I believe) ever since he was looked over for Glass and then for Carver. He's petty, uninspired and vindictive.

I don't think Singer should have hired his wife. It cannot be good. I kind of liked that good doggy episode. 

My point is the place is a revolving door. Something is wrong. 

The people commenting on how great it is are talking about their set respective experiences which is at a different location altogether and involves a very tight group of people who have successfully kept the show together despite the writing. They make those Unofficial Shaving People, Punting Things videos which excite me after every official interview and promotion has killed all whisper of hope. 

The official media presence tweets out photos of Jack and leaves Dean out of the CW promo reel.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

36 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

My point is the place is a revolving door. Something is wrong. 

I agree. They have no budget to work with so for the last few years SPN is a place where writers, directors, cast and crew go to put the show on their resume and move on.  Dabb's vision doesn't help and you are right Brad and Eugenie as head writers have been a disaster.

Re Glass....a dog perving on a woman taking a shower? Ew...

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I only remember that one locations guy tweeting about toxicity, plus whatever happened with Sheppard.
I wouldn’t be surprised though if the behind-the-scenes higher ups had a completely different culture than on-set. I agree that Singer hiring his wife wasn’t going to end well. It doesn’t even need to have been nepotism in the first place... I have been in workplaces where this happened, we needed people, and she was qualified, but you can’t avoid the office politics of then how to navigate any issues that arise regardless of how small or petty they are. Giving someone who so openly doesn’t give a shit about existing storyline’s or canon so much power, and making it difficult to correct her is a recipe for disaster.

 

the rest of it can probably be put down to the network thinking it was soooo safe that it didn’t need the money (or just being super stingy and continuing to push the envelope to see how low spn could go), or made a good place for newbies to cut their teeth on as Casseiopeia says

I especially agree with your first paragraph. That's what I think has happened to the writing in part especially once she rose up the ranks. I was reviewing regularly when she first started and I just remembered the momentum of the storylines dying whenever it was one of her episodes because she simply didn't bother or didn't care. She also was clueless about the current mindset and emotions of the characters. Everything about her episodes was tone deaf. It was obvious to me that editing her was not an option. I suspect Carver had more control as showrunner than Dabb because he was courted to come back. 

22 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I agree. They have no budget to work with so for the last few years SPN is a place where writers, directors, cast and crew go to put the show on their resume and move on.  Dabb's vision doesn't help and you are right Brad and Eugenie as head writers have been a disaster.

Re Glass....a dog perving on a woman taking a shower? Ew...

Yes. But he was a man who became a dog-skinwalker monster and he was loyal to the lady and humanity. He helped the Winchesters break the case.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. But he was a man who became a dog-shifter monster and he was loyal to the lady and humanity. He helped the Winchesters break the case.

I also liked All Dogs Go To Heaven. I didn't like all of the Soulless Sam episodes but I thought that this one was enjoyable. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the media thread:

On 1/25/2020 at 10:33 AM, PAForrest said:

Well, three things.

First, he wrote this with Dan Loflin who was his writing partner at the time. Loflin kept the scripts balanced, and once Loflin moved on, Dabb's scripts weren't as tight or as good on his own.

The bigger element is the fact that he was simply a writer under Kripke. Kripke was the showrunner, he was a very hands-on showrunner, and so the producers were responsible for bringing his vision to the screen, not their own.

And finally, there was a writers room at the time. Scripts went through everyone, and changes were made, writing was tweaked.

Al good points.

And interestingly for me, the two scripts we got from Loflin on his own weren't either as balanced or as good either, in my opinion. (See more below).

On 1/25/2020 at 2:15 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Loflin wrote Citizen Fang by himself and that script was pretty tight. 

Yes Reichenbach was excellent however I always had the feeling that Carver had a heavy hand in it since it drew heavily on themes from earlier Carver scripts and closely built on the premiere episode. I do not think Dabb had it in him to write something so good and nuanced and drenched in canon and subtext.

Don't forget Kim Manner. Things went uphill after Manners came on board and downhill after he died. The Manner years were the high point for Kripke.

Completely disagree on "Citizen Fang."

The logic of that script was lacking, at the very least in terms of Sam's characterization. Why would Sam go break Martin out of the hospital rather than, say, get Garth to go with him? Or have Garth hook him up with a sane hunter - since Garth was the "new Bobby" at the time, and the brothers had just recently had a case with him.

It made little sense except that the main point of the episode seemed to be character destruction of Sam, and for that purpose, it worked just fine. At the very least the script was extremely unbalanced.

"Citizen Fang" is on my top 10 list of my least favorite and worst episodes of the series, and it's pretty high up on that list, too.

And Loflin's "Remember the Titans" was just plain bad. And insulting to Greek Mythology.

There were a few Dabb only scripts I really enjoyed, but yes "Reichenbach" was probably the best. "Inside man" was my second favorite - but I happen to love (to hate) and appreciate Metatron, so that helped.

[ILoveReading]

This is from an interview with Shoshanna and I have to admit this answer about how she can help annoyed me. 

Quote

In recent seasons, it has taken the whole hunting team — whoever has been left standing in that particular time — to take on the big bad of the season. What particular strength or trick up her sleeve do you think Eileen has that will be most helpful in trying to stop Chuck?

One thing that I love about Eileen is that she’s written as such a strong and capable hunter because she uses her whole body instead of relying on one sense. Even so, I think her biggest strength is that she’s fiercely loyal. Even after just coming back from the incredibly painful and draining experience of hell, she was almost immediately happy and hopeful, and it felt like there might have been a palpable shift in the mood in the bunker because of that. That’s hard to do and I think it takes an incredibly strong person to pull that off. I think that, along with her faith in the Winchesters and in what’s right, are her strongest weapons. But I think she wears a lot on her sleeve, like we saw when she attacked Sergei. That was all her wanting to protect Sam, without any smoke or mirrors. Misha [Collins] actually asked the director, Amyn [Kaderali], to give me a knife, because he wasn’t sure size-wise I would conceivably be able to take down someone as big. But the knife didn’t feel right. I was grappling with it and so it actually felt less real to me, but I had to really convince everyone with my performance, so there was a lot of pressure. But then after I did it, Misha just casually said, “Yeah, OK, about that, I was wrong.” But I think that’s how Eileen hunts: with her heart, and she’ll continue to use it as fiercely as possible.

 Dean doens't have much but he's always been the loyal, hunter with the heart on his sleeve who is fiercely loyal.  The guy who will get in anyone's face to protect Sam.   Dean was the leader and the guy who set the mood. 

Now he doesn't even have that.  This honestly sounds like they are writing Eileen as a female Dean.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/supernatural-shoshannah-stern-this-close-eileen-sam-chuck-final-season-interview-1203474955/

I didn't read the whole interview so beware there may be spoilers.

Edited January 29, 2020 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is from an interview with Shoshanna and I have to admit this answer about how she can help annoyed me. 

 Dean doens't have much but he's always been the loyal, hunter with the heart on his sleeve who is fiercely loyal.  The guy who will get in anyone's face to protect Sam.   Dean was the leader and the guy who set the mood. 

Now he doesn't even have that.  This honestly sounds like they are writing Eileen as a female Dean.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/supernatural-shoshannah-stern-this-close-eileen-sam-chuck-final-season-interview-1203474955/

I didn't read the whole interview so beware there may be spoilers.

Just because she was saying that her character is loyal isn't saying that Dean isn't.  More than on person on a show can have a character trait. 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Katy M said:

Just because she was saying that her character is loyal isn't saying that Dean isn't.  More than on person on a show can have a character trait. 

I know that and before Dabb it wouldn't have bothered me in the least, but with everything they've stripped from Dean and continue to do so, its just bugged me. 

[Aeryn13]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is from an interview with Shoshanna and I have to admit this answer about how she can help annoyed me. 

 Dean doens't have much but he's always been the loyal, hunter with the heart on his sleeve who is fiercely loyal.  The guy who will get in anyone's face to protect Sam.   Dean was the leader and the guy who set the mood. 

Now he doesn't even have that.  This honestly sounds like they are writing Eileen as a female Dean.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/supernatural-shoshannah-stern-this-close-eileen-sam-chuck-final-season-interview-1203474955/

I didn't read the whole interview so beware there may be spoilers.

No spoilers, she is kinda all over the place in the interview. She describes Eileen as a mirror to Sam in terms of backstory - parent(s) killed by a supernatural entity while both were babies in a crib. Also as, well how to put it, a burden on Sam in the way Sam is a burden on Dean. Then she goes on about Eileen being Sam's love interest and that he chose to bring her back over anyone else. That reminds me: fuck you, Kevin. Apparently.

I don't mind her answer because really what is she gonna say? Eileen was a one off, then a limited guest star and now apparently the last minute love interest. Beyond that and her disability, she is kinda generic hunter that is an ally person.

There is a lot taken from Dean - and never anything given back - on the show in terms of roles, skills, positive traits. But I don't think Eileen is the problem. Her relationship with Dean seems friendly enough when they interact. She works as a sister-in-law.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is a lot taken from Dean - and never anything given back -

I guess its more about it bringing up my issues with the writers than really anything against Shoshanna, herself.  I know she's just answering the question. 

I feel like the writers are using her as a replacement for Dean. 

[Aeryn13]

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess its more about it bringing up my issues with the writers than really anything against Shoshanna, herself.  I know she's just answering the question. 

I feel like the writers are using her as a replacement for Dean. 

If they actually gave Dean a truly heroic death and acknowledgment in the Finale, I would have no problem with her being the replacement insofar as hooking up with Sam and them possibly having a kid they could actually name Dean.

We`re at the point where this would be best cast scenario for the show and Dean.   

In fact, can Dabb write whatever he wants in the Finale and the Arrow writers do all the Dean parts? I would be completely onboard with that. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Harleycat]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess its more about it bringing up my issues with the writers than really anything against Shoshanna, herself.  I know she's just answering the question. 

I feel like the writers are using her as a replacement for Dean. 

I don't really mind in a 'well, she's good enough for Sam' kind of way. Dean has so many positive traits, especially when it comes to his relationship with his brother, it would be hard for Eileen to not at least one or two in common unless she was a completely devoid of a personality. My guess is the actress doesn't really have much idea or was given much direction on who Eileen is, so is just doing her best.