DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 7 hours ago, catrox14 said: I saw something on Twitter that Perez said he's watched 25 episodes of SPN. I'll see if I can find it. So of course now I want to know which 25. Because that might explain EVERYTHING How the hell is he qualified to write for these characters after only watching 25 episodes? That's what..one season plus a few more episodes? With that experience I could have come on board after watching season one in it's entirety. Ugh. Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 55 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: How the hell is he qualified to write for these characters after only watching 25 episodes? That's what..one season plus a few more episodes? With that experience I could have come on board after watching season one in it's entirety. Ugh. I have too much free time on my hands tonight. Major arc episodes that could be disputed through four seasons: Season One 1) Pilot - set up of Mary's death, the whole story of John, Jess' death for Sam 2) Phantom Traveler - demon encounter 3) Home - Mary's ghost 4) Faith - Dean is saved from death 5) Nightmare - Mom died the same way as max's 6) Something Wicked - Dean's not protecting Sam from a monster as a kid 7) Salvation - Meg the demon targeting family friends 8) Devil's trap - John being possessed, being crashed into by demons Season Two 9) In my time of dying - Dean willingly wanting to go with the reaper before the deal 10) Everybody Loves a Clown - Dean mourning 11) Simon Said - Psychic kids. 12) Crossroad blues - how to make a demon deal and how John died 13) Croatoan - demonic virus that Sam is immune too 14) Hunted - John's deal, more psy kids 15) Born Under a Bad Sign - Sam possessed for the first time, Meg 16) All Hell Breaks Loose - Dean's deal, YED death Season Three 17) Magnificent Seven - Ruby, revealing Sam's flaws 18 ) The Kids Are Alright - Ruby, Dean's history 19) Bedtime Stories - demon refusing to name the deal holder for Dean 20) Malleus Maleficarum - Ruby saying there is no way to save Dean, what happens in hell 21) Mystery Spot - What Sam will become 22) Jus in Bello - Lilith for the first time 23) No Rest for the Wicked - Dean is dragged to hell Season Four 24) Lazarus Rising - Dean returns from hell by angelic means 25) Are You Here God, it's Me Dean Wincher? - Rising of the witnesses, seal breaking 26) In the Beginning - not being able to undo Mary's deal 27) Yellow Fever - first admission to remembering hell by Dean complete with Lilith. 28) Samhain - Angels, seal breaking, orders given by heaven to Dean. Sam with blood powers 29) I Know What You Did Last Summer/Heaven and Hell - Fallen angels 30) Death Takes a Holiday - Seal breaking 31) On the Head of a Pin - Dean torturing a demon under 'heaven's' orders, Sam saving him with blood powers 32) It's a Wonderful Life - Always meant to be hunters, first other angelic interference by heaven outside of recuse from hell and Castiel. 33) Monster at the End of the Book - Chuck the Prophet, using Raphael to drive off Lilith. 34) The Rapture - Castiel being re-educated, not telling the boys anything. Only Jimmy Novak episode 35) When the Levee Breaks - Dean tries to detox Sam, is beaten by Sam high on demon blood 36) Lucifer Rising - Sam kills an innocent, drinks her blood and kills Lilith while Dean escapes the angels These are the arcs of the first four seasons. If someone who writes for a show can proclaim of a series with 200+ episodes that they've watched at least twenty five then I say screw them. I don't care what series they are writing for or the seriousness of them. Even watching the major arc episodes will take some time in any series especially a long running one. 1 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Airmid said: I have too much free time on my hands tonight. Major arc episodes that could be disputed through four seasons: Season One 1) Pilot - set up of Mary's death, the whole story of John, Jess' death for Sam 2) Phantom Traveler - demon encounter 3) Home - Mary's ghost 4) Faith - Dean is saved from death 5) Nightmare - Mom died the same way as max's 6) Something Wicked - Dean's not protecting Sam from a monster as a kid 7) Salvation - Meg the demon targeting family friends 8) Devil's trap - John being possessed, being crashed into by demons Season Two 9) In my time of dying - Dean willingly wanting to go with the reaper before the deal 10) Everybody Loves a Clown - Dean mourning 11) Simon Said - Psychic kids. 12) Crossroad blues - how to make a demon deal and how John died 13) Croatoan - demonic virus that Sam is immune too 14) Hunted - John's deal, more psy kids 15) Born Under a Bad Sign - Sam possessed for the first time, Meg 16) All Hell Breaks Loose - Dean's deal, YED death Season Three 17) Magnificent Seven - Ruby, revealing Sam's flaws 18 ) The Kids Are Alright - Ruby, Dean's history 19) Bedtime Stories - demon refusing to name the deal holder for Dean 20) Malleus Maleficarum - Ruby saying there is no way to save Dean, what happens in hell 21) Mystery Spot - What Sam will become 22) Jus in Bello - Lilith for the first time 23) No Rest for the Wicked - Dean is dragged to hell Season Four 24) Lazarus Rising - Dean returns from hell by angelic means 25) Are You Here God, it's Me Dean Wincher? - Rising of the witnesses, seal breaking 26) In the Beginning - not being able to undo Mary's deal 27) Yellow Fever - first admission to remembering hell by Dean complete with Lilith. 28) Samhain - Angels, seal breaking, orders given by heaven to Dean. Sam with blood powers 29) I Know What You Did Last Summer/Heaven and Hell - Fallen angels 30) Death Takes a Holiday - Seal breaking 31) On the Head of a Pin - Dean torturing a demon under 'heaven's' orders, Sam saving him with blood powers 32) It's a Wonderful Life - Always meant to be hunters, first other angelic interference by heaven outside of recuse from hell and Castiel. 33) Monster at the End of the Book - Chuck the Prophet, using Raphael to drive off Lilith. 34) The Rapture - Castiel being re-educated, not telling the boys anything. Only Jimmy Novak episode 35) When the Levee Breaks - Dean tries to detox Sam, is beaten by Sam high on demon blood 36) Lucifer Rising - Sam kills an innocent, drinks her blood and kills Lilith while Dean escapes the angels These are the arcs of the first four seasons. If someone who writes for a show can proclaim of a series with 200+ episodes that they've watched at least twenty five then I say screw them. I don't care what series they are writing for or the seriousness of them. Even watching the major arc episodes will take some time in any series especially a long running one. OMG me too; why am I still awake?? There was so much going on in the eps that you named and we haven't gotten into the Apocalypse, Soulless Sam, Leviathans, Purgatory, the tablets or the MOC. I haven't been able to enjoy his eps since he likes to leave Dean out of the action and I strongly feel that he doesn't care about the character. His scripts center on his obvious fave and I say this as a fan that likes Sam. 2 Link to comment
rue721 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) Re Perez saying he's seen 25 episodes of SPN I think it's kind of graceless for a new writer to be so flip, because the people who wrote and produced (and acted in and directed, etc) those other episodes that Perez apparently can't be bothered to watch are *Perez's own colleagues.* What kind of dummy says flat out that he hasn't even bothered to take a look at his own colleagues' work? These are people who might be working on the show with him *now.* It just seems really undiplomatic and unprofessional if nothing else. Also, there have been 15 episodes THIS SEASON. So I hope that he's not counting S12 episodes in his 25! That would be kind of hilarious, if he had watched literally like 10 episodes before starting to write his own. Edited March 12, 2017 by rue721 4 Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 34 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: OMG me too; why am I still awake?? There was so much going on in the eps that you named and we haven't gotten into the Apocalypse, Soulless Sam, Leviathans, Purgatory, the tablets or the MOC. I haven't been able to enjoy his eps since he likes to leave Dean out of the action and I strongly feel that he doesn't care about the character. His scripts center on his obvious fave and I say this as a fan that likes Sam. Heh, I prefer to refer to my insomnia as creative time. As for that list - some could argue for and against episodes and even add more on (like Time is on my Side where Sam is willing to become a monster to save Dean, or Long Distance Call where Dean is sure John is there to save him). A lot of the times the MOTW episodes can be tied back into the over all plot (such as Dean remembering hell, Sam being soulless and hallucinating, or even the episode everyone despises Route 666 which brings Dean to his long lost love and helps further the drift between the brothers and Sam). Now if we had a new writer who binged on myth episodes and nothing else and wrote from that while trying to fill themselves in on the rest - I'd be fine. No worries. Sometimes thing happen and it's really hard to catch up on a series people like me have been watching/following for 12 years. But if someone was all proud of watching twenty five episodes of a long running series be it anything any fan has the right to be upset. I watched General Hospital and All My Children as a kid. If I claimed to only see that many episodes then proceeded to write for it I'd probably be booed off the set. While soap operas get frowned on there's as many if not more minute details that run through the series just like this. Coming in and writing for a series that has been on the air for a long time is a daunting task and one I'm willing to cut slack for. Not so much when the errors are glaring or the writers just don't care about canon (i.e. Taxi Driver which still makes me want to shoot that episode into orbit even to this day). 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 Perez isn't the first sadly. I remember Robbie Thompson also admitted to only watching a limited number of episodes and he uses Super Wiki for all his research instead. Although saying that he must have watched the right episodes because I generally found his characterisation of the main four perfect! 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot March 12, 2017 Author Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: Perez isn't the first sadly. I remember Robbie Thompson also admitted to only watching a limited number of episodes and he uses Super Wiki for all his research instead. Although saying that he must have watched the right episodes because I generally found his characterisation of the main four perfect! Personally, I think Robbie Thompson is a talented guy, but his episodes tended to get away from him and, IMO, characterization wasn't his priority. IMO, the concept of his episodes seemed to take precedence over the story or characterization. That's not to say he was horrible at characterization, but that it could go out the window when it didn't fit his concept. And--this is also why I'm not a Tarantino fan--his episodes always felt like he was trying to show me how cute and clever he was instead of letting the work speak for itself. I always felt like Thompson could've been a stellar writer if he had someone keeping his scripts on track and on point. As it was, I generally found his episodes lacking in the end. That's not to say he wasn't one of their best writers and his episodes weren't some of the better ones every season, it's just that I could see so much more potential in him than what he delivered. And, this is just a personal thing, but I was always disappointed that he never seemed to grow throughout his time on the show. In the end, I think he was probably a stronger writer when he started than when he left. Supernatural is weird for me in that I actually know the individual writers. I don't mean I know them personally, but that I know their names and can usually pick out who wrote what episode just from watching it. Which has it's drawbacks and benefits, IMO. One of the benefits is that I got to watch a few of them grow with the show and watched them develop into full-fledged writers. I was just a little disappointed that Thompson never seemed to grow much. Although, it could be that he also didn't have anyone to water him, so to speak. 4 Link to comment
Pondlass1 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 Who are these handsome guys? And what have you done with the real Sam and Dean? Maybe they should have a 'character bible' or legend or whatever available to writers as a resource. But it's the showrunner who should keep characters in character and have a good knowledge of each character's background history and foibles...and Andrew has been with the show for a while. He should know better. But he seems way too absorbed with his 'new toy' - the BMOL - to bother much with the bread & butter of the show... namely Sam and Dean. 1 Link to comment
Myrelle March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) On 3/11/2017 at 11:22 AM, Wayward Son said: I don't think one needs to be a Dean hater to feel Sam was (mostly) justified in what he said to Dean here and that the parts that weren't true were understandable due to the extreme anger he felt. What Dean did to Sam in early season nine was horrific and possibly the darkest thing we've seen any main character do to another. It's for that reason I don't understand the argument that the purge speech was much more horrifying than the ordeal Dean had put Sam through prior to this. Sam was the victim in all of this not Dean. It goes to intentions here, IMO. Dean's main intention was to save Sam and whether it was for his own selfish reasons or because after considering Sam's feelings on the matter and even knowing that Sam would be pissed about it, he deemed it the right thing to do/try(because in the end, Sam would have still had to say yes and agree to be being possessed in order for Gadreel to possess him. I don't think Dean even knew how Gadreel would do that other than he likely knew that Gadreel was going to wear his(Dean's) face when he talked to Sam) so he basically only agreed to not fight Gadreel on the attempt and nothing more. But regardless of his reasons, Dean main intention here was to save Sam's life-unlike Castiel when he broke Sam's wall or even Castiel again, when he beat the shit out of Dean for considering a choice that was not to Cas' liking. I think those teo things were far more horrific if intentions are taken into consideration along with the acts themselves. For that matter, I think that Sam choosing to sleep with a demon while he knew that his brother was in Hell and being tortured by her kind for all of eternity was darker that Dean's act also. So again, it just comes down to perception and opinions and what one is willing to forgive of any of the characters on this show. They've all done dark things, but basic intentions count AFAIC because where it concerns the ends justifying the means(which is where this show always take it in the end) there is always a basic intention involved to achieve the said end. Dean was trying save his brother's life. That was his main goal and his end game. Did people get hurt and die? Yes. Did it make him a megalomaniac?-maybe on one level, but not any less or more than Cas became that in s7, or Sam became that in s4, and people were surely hurt and died as a result of what they did, too-including and especially Dean, and far more than once and on multiple levels that included both physical and emotional abuse. Sam's consent was taken away, but as we were shown he suffered no physical mistreatment from it. It was all mental and emotional abuse, in the end. Kevin's dying was on Dean. Dean knew this and owned it fully. That Sam was possessed while he did it made it something that Sam would at least be able to move on from when he realized that he never had any control over that-because it WAS Gadreel who killed Kevin-not Sam and not Dean, but Sam least of all. The Purge speech only reinforced the idea in Dean that he is little more than a killer and highlighted the idea(in Dean'smind) that Sam also had never seen Dean in any other light than that-and worse, he 'd also always seen Dean as selfish and cowardly and never a hero-never even close. So this: On 3/11/2017 at 11:29 AM, DeeDee79 said: Inevitable hurt as a result of a few harsh remarks from Sam. feels like an understatement of epic proportions to me if you truly consider the life that Dean's lead from the time that he was four years old and if you truly consider all the hurt and pain that Dean had suffered at the hands of both enemies and family/loved ones up to that point. In short, it feels like something someone would say who's never really grasped those things about the character and as such, I'd have to question the equality of love/understanding that was felt for all of the characters at the beginning. It's okay to not love them all the same. I don't and never have, but I've always known that about myself. ETA: Sorry about the erroneous second quote, DEEDEE. You are right. That should have been WAYWARD SON said: but I'm not sure how to fix it because I'm often technologically challenged. Edited March 12, 2017 by Myrelle 4 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) @Myrelle this quote: "Inevitable hurt as a result of a few harsh remarks from Sam." was from Wayward Son, not me :) With that out of the way I agree with your points. Edited March 12, 2017 by DeeDee79 1 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 I understand the argument that Dean allowed Gadreel to possess Sam without his consent, but what's the alternative? Let Sam die and leave the show? That was never going to happen. So all in all, I looked at it as a fairly clever way for them to fix Sam, and add some drama to the storyline. Was I horrified when Gadreel killed Kevin? Absolutely, but I mainly felt sorry for Dean. He was guilt-ridden the entire time by not being able to tell Sam what was going on for fear that he would die, so he's totally going to blame himself for Kevin's death. Sam was oblivious to anything that went on while he was being possessed. It wasn't like a demon possession where the human is aware of what's happening to them, and all of the horrible things they're being made to do. I'm not saying Sam didn't feel bad, but he absolutely held no blame for what happened to Kevin. What Sam said to Dean was just mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel. And was later proven to be false, since Sam was willing to do absolutely anything to save his brother when he had the Mark of Cain, and when he was a demon. This is what they do, and I can't really feel outraged for either one of them. It's what the show is about, so without that "saving at any cost" mindset, we wouldn't have a show. 3 Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 When a writer puts themselves into a corner so tight that the only way to wiggle free is to make characters do something they wouldn't normally do and cross a moral even horizon, there's a problem. Having Dean manipulate Sam into letting an angel possess him was probably one of the worst things he could have ever done to his brother. Sam already has gotten his agency taken away from him over the years from demons bleeding in his mouth, being possessed by supernatural creatures that did things with his body, being given a love potion etc. To lie like he did put Dean into a very bad light. Yeah, Dean has severe abandonment and other emotional issues and it is within his character scope to do something really stupid but it's not good as a whole for the show. To be honest, I stopped watching for a while with this just because it was terrible and it was already a stacked deck that the angel in question wasn't going to turn out to be good. @MysteryGuest - Sam did remember some of it including the death of Kevin. When Meg possessed him he didn't remember what happened until they figured out it was a demon. Seems to be a choice made on the part of the creature doing the body squatting. The theme of the show should be family is what saves everything, not let the world burn to save family which is kind of what it has felt like to me over the past several years. 3 Link to comment
SueB March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 On 3/11/2017 at 2:17 PM, AwesomO4000 said: Heh. When Aeryn13 and I agree on something - I was certain your next words were going to be "that's a sign of the Apocalypse" Sorry... it's like you toss that up there for me to slam across the net.... I'll show myself out. 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 16 hours ago, Airmid said: I watched General Hospital and All My Children as a kid. If I claimed to only see that many episodes then proceeded to write for it I'd probably be booed off the set. While soap operas get frowned on there's as many if not more minute details that run through the series just like this. I don't generally watch but my mom is a Young & The Restless and Bold & The Beautiful fan and there's always so much going on and so many characters to focus on. There's definitely way more assorted plot lines and character histories to keep up with on the soaps. 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said: I understand the argument that Dean allowed Gadreel to possess Sam without his consent, but what's the alternative? Let Sam die and leave the show? That was never going to happen. So all in all, I looked at it as a fairly clever way for them to fix Sam, and add some drama to the storyline. Was I horrified when Gadreel killed Kevin? Absolutely, but I mainly felt sorry for Dean. He was guilt-ridden the entire time by not being able to tell Sam what was going on for fear that he would die, so he's totally going to blame himself for Kevin's death. Sam was oblivious to anything that went on while he was being possessed. It wasn't like a demon possession where the human is aware of what's happening to them, and all of the horrible things they're being made to do. I'm not saying Sam didn't feel bad, but he absolutely held no blame for what happened to Kevin. What Sam said to Dean was just mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel. And was later proven to be false, since Sam was willing to do absolutely anything to save his brother when he had the Mark of Cain, and when he was a demon. This is what they do, and I can't really feel outraged for either one of them. It's what the show is about, so without that "saving at any cost" mindset, we wouldn't have a show. Bit in Bold 1: No one said anything about Sam dying and leaving the show. This isn't real life where things just happen. The showrunners have complete control over what happens within the Supernatural verse. They could have just as easily not hospitalised Sam in the first place if they felt putting him there backed them into the corner of having to choose between Sam dying or Dean collaborating with Gadreel to possess him. However, even within the context of this scene there were more options available to them. The most obvious one being let Sam be the one to consent to being possessed. They provided Dean with a way of communicating with him whilst he was comatose. The writers could have just as easily had Dean and / or Gadreel explain the situation to Sam and give him the choice rather than using trickery. That way the possession wasn't something forced on Sam, but something he chose. It would be a decision Sam made knowingly for good or bad. It would also have the added bonus of not making Dean complicit in the supernatural rape of Sam. Bit in Bold 2: How was Sam to know Dean felt guilty? From Sam's perspective Dean had just bluntly stated that even with foresight he would make the same decision all over again. I'm sorry but any sympathy I might have felt for Dean and his plight vanished the moment he showed utter contempt for Kevin's life by stating he would do it all over again. As I mentioned in previous posts, had they used this storyline to explore the darker aspects of his bond with Sam and it ended with Dean realising there are certain lines you don't cross I would have understood the narrative need for Dean to take this course of action, but alas they didn't. Instead they belittled the genuine points made by the actual victim with the stupid I lied line. 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: It goes to intentions here, IMO. Dean's main intention was to save Sam and whether it was for his own selfish reasons or because after considering Sam's feelings on the matter and even knowing that Sam would be pissed about it, he deemed it the right thing to do/try(because in the end, Sam would have still had to say yes and agree to be being possessed in order for Gadreel to possess him. I don't think Dean even knew how Gadreel would do that other than he likely knew that Gadreel was going to wear his(Dean's) face when he talked to Sam) so he basically only agreed to not fight Gadreel on the attempt and nothing more. But regardless of his reasons, Dean main intention here was to save Sam's life-unlike Castiel when he broke Sam's wall or even Castiel again, when he beat the shit out of Dean for considering a choice that was not to Cas' liking. I think those teo things were far more horrific if intentions are taken into consideration along with the acts themselves. For that matter, I think that Sam choosing to sleep with a demon while he knew that his brother was in Hell and being tortured by her kind for all of eternity was darker that Dean's act also. So again, it just comes down to perception and opinions and what one is willing to forgive of any of the characters on this show. They've all done dark things, but basic intentions count AFAIC because where it concerns the ends justifying the means(which is where this show always take it in the end) there is always a basic intention involved to achieve the said end. Dean was trying save his brother's life. That was his main goal and his end game. Did people get hurt and die? Yes. Did it make him a megalomaniac?-maybe on one level, but not any less or more than Cas became that in s7, or Sam became that in s4, and people were surely hurt and died as a result of what they did, too-including and especially Dean, and far more than once and on multiple levels that included both physical and emotional abuse. Sam's consent was taken away, but as we were shown he suffered no physical mistreatment from it. It was all mental and emotional abuse, in the end. Kevin's dying was on Dean. Dean knew this and owned it fully. That Sam was possessed while he did it made it something that Sam would at least be able to move on from when he realized that he never had any control over that-because it WAS Gadreel who killed Kevin-not Sam and not Dean, but Sam least of all. The Purge speech only reinforced the idea in Dean that he is little more than a killer and highlighted the idea(in Dean'smind) that Sam also had never seen Dean in any other light than that-and worse, he 'd also always seen Dean as selfish and cowardly and never a hero-never even close. So this: feels like an understatement of epic proportions to me if you truly consider the life that Dean's lead from the time that he was four years old and if you truly consider all the hurt and pain that Dean had suffered at the hands of both enemies and family/loved ones up to that point. In short, it feels like something someone would say who's never really grasped those things about the character and as such, I'd have to question the equality of love/understanding that was felt for all of the characters at the beginning. It's okay to not love them all the same. I don't and never have, but I've always known that about myself. Bit in Bold 1: Ah but the big difference between two of those acts (Cas breaking Sam's wall and Cas beating up Sam) and this was the amount of time involved. The breaking of Sam's wall and beating up of Dean were quick actions Castiel did in the heat of the moment. By contrast Dean continued to lie and manipulate Sam for months after Gadreel's initial possession of him. Another key difference, between those acts you mention and the possession, was the perpetrator's behaviour in the aftermath. Yes, it was wrong for Castiel to break Sam's wall, yes it was wrong for Cas to take his frustrations out on Dean and yes it was wrong for Sam to pick Ruby over Dean. However, at least Sam and Castiel were self aware enough to acknowledge those actions were wrong and they apologised to the one they wronged and tried to make amends. Dean by contrast insisted he was in the right. Not only that, but he went as far as to try and belittle Sam's right to feel angry with him. I'm convinced this more than anything made his reaction towards Dean particularly harsh. We saw with Castiel Sam is capable of forgiving those who have done wrong towards him. Problem is Dean showed no signs of remorse for what he did. So in that context I can understand Sam feeling the need to be extremely harsh towards Dean to get his point across. Bit in Bold 2: I'm curious, because again a key difference between those incidents is the fact that Sam and Cas admitted they were wrong, where exactly is the line Dean shouldn't cross to save Sam's life? He has already stated he would do it all over again, even knowing the cost was an individual's life. So does that mean it would be ok for Dean to sacrifice ten lives, a hundred lives, a million of them, if it served his goal of keeping Sam safe from dying? I'm genuinely curious. If his actions resulting in the loss of a life wasn't enough to make him (and his fans) realise what he did was unacceptable then how far should things be taken before we reach a point where its unacceptable? Bit in Bold 3: So wait am I to believe abuse is OK as long as its only mental and emotional? In that case, Sam's words to Dean in this episode were absolutely nothing also as Sam didn't opt to use his fists to hurt Dean. Edited March 12, 2017 by Wayward Son 5 Link to comment
Myrelle March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 20 minutes ago, Airmid said: When a writer puts themselves into a corner so tight that the only way to wiggle free is to make characters do something they wouldn't normally do and cross a moral even horizon, there's a problem. I thought that the main point of both the Amy Pond sl and the Gadreel storyline was to actually ruin the Dean character in as terrible a way as the writers realized(too late) that they'd already ruined both Sam and Castiel in their previous "dark" storylines. But then, in addition we were given the MOC sl and the DemonDean storyline in which again, I saw both Cas and Sam as dark as or even darker than Dean in all four. So my feeling of what the main message that the writers/showrunners have been attempting to show us since the end of s5 should be that amongst the main cast there are no innocent victims(excepting for what happened to them as children, I suppose) and that the "monster" inside any human being-even and especially hunters-can(and sometimes does) make the supernatural monster appear to be the lesser of two evils. I'd even add what Sam did to Lester as darker than what Dean did AND what Sam, Cas, Crowley, and Rowena did with the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark also. But in the end, I think taking all of the characters as dark as they did became more of a tit-for-tat type of thing with the writers after S5. I think it was their stupid and screwy way of attempting to "balance things out" even then. 4 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) Well, if we're going to argue that the writers could have chosen a different method to keep Sam alive, I won't disagree with that. But the issue is that the writers make Sam and Dean do and say things that are not only out of character, but frequently have potentially world-ending consequences, all the time. They've been doing it since season one, and have continued to do it right up through last week's episode. That's not going to change, unfortunately. But at least for me, having an angel possess Sam in order to save his life isn't as egregious as some of the other things they've had them do. And there are 12 years worth of bad decisions and cruel comments to choose from. Edited March 13, 2017 by MysteryGuest 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 52 minutes ago, Airmid said: When a writer puts themselves into a corner so tight that the only way to wiggle free is to make characters do something they wouldn't normally do and cross a moral even horizon, there's a problem. Having Dean manipulate Sam into letting an angel possess him was probably one of the worst things he could have ever done to his brother. Sam already has gotten his agency taken away from him over the years from demons bleeding in his mouth, being possessed by supernatural creatures that did things with his body, being given a love potion etc. To lie like he did put Dean into a very bad light. Yeah, Dean has severe abandonment and other emotional issues and it is within his character scope to do something really stupid but it's not good as a whole for the show. To be honest, I stopped watching for a while with this just because it was terrible and it was already a stacked deck that the angel in question wasn't going to turn out to be good. @MysteryGuest - Sam did remember some of it including the death of Kevin. When Meg possessed him he didn't remember what happened until they figured out it was a demon. Seems to be a choice made on the part of the creature doing the body squatting. The theme of the show should be family is what saves everything, not let the world burn to save family which is kind of what it has felt like to me over the past several years. I agree with all of this Airmid! In my opinion if Dean (or Sam) wants to sacrifice themselves to save the other brother then that's acceptable. It's not ideal, but they're making choices about their own individual fate. However, if their actions involve sacrificing the other brother or innocent people around them that's when the line has been crossed IMO. 4 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: I'm sorry but any sympathy I might have felt for Dean and his plight vanished the moment he showed utter contempt for Kevin's life by stating he would do it all over again. And I'll state again that the writers made it so because Dean as written is not normally a callous, insensitive character especially when it concerns his brother. This was a blow to the character as written and the writers should be the ones being blamed for this. 1 Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 25 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: I don't generally watch but my mom is a Young & The Restless and Bold & The Beautiful fan and there's always so much going on and so many characters to focus on. There's definitely way more assorted plot lines and character histories to keep up with on the soaps. Oh yeah definitely, especially given that they have decades of plot/characters to balance. Even worse for them is that they have to keep it moving on a day to day basis so they can't afford to have a writer come in and write somebody totally OOC just to have them rubber band back to their original selves 24-48 hours later. I thought of the soap opera reference though because with this show it has over a decade of history with a ton of side characters, lore, motivations, retcons that were intentional or accidental, and really a big world with different plans of existence each with different rules. I would think it would be hard to write for then say maybe some cheesy family sitcom (which I do enjoy and never admit to normally in public). Even long running dramas don't necessarily have the same kind of massive info dump writers would have to wade through to be able to do it successfully. In all fairness to the new writers, I think it would be next to impossible to not have watched this show regularly and be able to write for it. There doesn't seem to be a bible and in one season we have angels being immensely powerful able to fling people around and suddenly later on they always use fist fighting till the stabby stab happens. We've got something like Cas who is all BAMF one second and then wibble wobbles unable to not be cursed by a witch. Or Sam and Dean who still have personality shifts and it's a credit to the dedication of the cast that keeps any of their core traits together. Sure there's always going to be tone differences and other things when you've got a bunch of people working together on a plot. But without any kind of care for what's come before we go from an entire season of looking for Purgatory to 'it took a bunch of angel deaths to save Cas' and ending up at 'lol back door? cool!' And those last two are from the same season! 4 minutes ago, Myrelle said: I thought that the main point of both the Amy Pond sl and the Gadreel storyline was to actually ruin the Dean character in as terrible a way as the writers realized(too late) that they'd already ruined both Sam and Castiel in their previous "dark" storylines. But then, in addition we were given the MOC sl and the DemonDean storyline in which again, I saw both Cas and Sam as dark as or even darker than Dean in all four. So my feeling of what the main message that the writers/showrunners have been attempting to show us since the end of s5 should be that amongst the main cast there are no innocent victims(excepting for what happened to them as children, I suppose) and that the "monster" inside any human being-even and especially hunters-can(and sometimes does) make the supernatural monster appear to be the lesser of two evils. I'd even add what Sam did to Lester as darker than what Dean did AND what Sam, Cas, Crowley, and Rowena did with the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark also. But in the end, I think taking all of the characters as dark as they did became more of a tit-for-tat type of thing with the writers after S5. I think it was their stupid and screwy way of attempting to "balance things out" even then. The really sad part is that both Sam and Cas could have been redeemed. Sam has never really come back for me as a character since Lucifer Rising. With When the Levee Breaks he was a bastard, yes, but I got what was happening. He was an addict and they often do terrible things, even physically hurt those that they love. It was when Sam was showing remorse and doubt and just a simple voice mail pushed him over to drinking an innocent woman to death? Yeah, no. I would have preferred if they found another way that he was more forced into killing Lilith which wouldn't have excused his choices but put him into a sympathetic light. Cas could have been redeemed if they didn't use him as the village idiot to move the next uber plot along. That's the part that really bothers me about him. Sometimes I can't figure out if the people that work on this show (producers/writers) actually like it or are slowly taking out a bunch of untold hate that's built up over the years seeing the weird stuff they do. 4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: Well, if we're going to argue that the writers could have chosen a different method to keep Sam alive, I won't argue with that. But the issue is that the writers make Sam and Dean do and say things that are not only out of character, but frequently have potentially world-ending consequences, all the time. They've been doing it since season one, and have continued to do it right up through last week's episode. That's not going to change, unfortunately. But at least for me, having an angel possess Sam in order to save his life isn't as egregious as some of the other things they've had them do. And there are 12 years worth of bad decisions and cruel comments to choose from. Dean could have been honest. All these years and what does he do? Lie and lie some more. He could have told Sam the real truth and I think Sam would have stayed for him. They even could have had Gadreel wipe Sam's mind of the possession so Sam didn't panic eject the angel and still gone ahead with the rest of the plot. The whole non-con aspect of the entire situation was vastly uncomfortable and really, if they wanted the brothers to grow and actually maybe build on the weird set up that led to Sam doing the trials for his brother, this basically takes all that and dumps on it. 2 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: The breaking of Sam's wall and beating up of Dean were quick actions Castiel did in the heat of the moment. And so it can be argued that Dean's decision to allow Gadreel into Sam was also a "heat of the moment decision because his brother was minutes away from death. Sorry, but Castiel does not get a pass in comparison. 3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: Well, if we're going to argue that the writers could have chosen a different method to keep Sam alive, I won't argue with that. But the issue is that the writers make Sam and Dean do and say things that are not only out of character, but frequently have potentially world-ending consequences, all the time. They've been doing it since season one, and have continued to do it right up through last week's episode. That's not going to change, unfortunately. But at least for me, having an angel possess Sam in order to save his life isn't as egregious as some of the other things they've had them do. And there are 12 years worth of bad decisions and cruel comments to choose from. I love the way that you put this. It irks me when Dean's faults are regarded as if he's an actual person while Sam's faults are regarded as "bad writing". They're both character who have suffered from bad writing so overall the onus should be on the writers for making them deplorable. 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) The most prominent thing `for me from the Gadreel storyline didn`t happen onscreen. It was an interview where Jared gushed about a "wet dream of a storyline" (actual quote) while Jensen sat there and had nothing to say, he just looked bored. So, yeah, imagine how much I loved that construct, especially on the heels of the atrocious Season 8.B. And on top of all this they used this to drag Dean through the mud as gleefully as possible. I hate having the writing shove something down my throat, I will push back against it. And I did here. Yes, what Dean did was absolutely horrible but I wouldn`t hate him for it just because the writers wanted to. Meanwhile, they obviously wanted me to cheer Sam on in the Purge and agree with every single word he said. That`s what bugged me that it was like the writers speaking through Sam there, saying "yes, Dean is a horrible, selfish, delusional coward and has never been anything else". It didn`t come across to me as Sam saying untrue stuff because he was so angry but as if he was supposed to be speaking the truth. Again, my response was that the writers could suck it. Their very writing is the reason for my having more sympathy for Dean and way less for the other characters they try to sell me way too hard. It was never equal for me either, I`m not about to say any differently, but I have certainly found more reason to dig in my protectiveness for the character. Edited March 12, 2017 by Aeryn13 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: And so it can be argued that Dean's decision to allow Gadreel into Sam was also a "heat of the moment decision because his brother was minutes away from death. Sorry, but Castiel does not get a pass in comparison. You did see the next part of my post didn't you? Straight after that I clarified Quote By contrast Dean continued to lie and manipulate Sam for months after Gadreel's initial possession of him why I personally am more forgiving of Castiel. Castiel's breaking of Sam's wall was wrong and you won't hear me say otherwise. However, a real deal breaker for me is the fact that at least Castiel later admitted he was wrong to do so and tried to make up for it. Had we not had that, had Castiel insisted in season 7 he was right to break Sam's wall I would not be willing to forgive him either. I guess you could say I'm willing to forgive almost anything. However, a character has to actually realise what they did is wrong and learn from the experience to earn said forgiveness. Cas and Sam demonstrated remorse and apologised to the one they wronged. Dean did not. Edited March 12, 2017 by Wayward Son 2 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Airmid said: I thought of the soap opera reference though because with this show it has over a decade of history with a ton of side characters, lore, motivations, retcons that were intentional or accidental, and really a big world with different plans of existence each with different rules. I would think it would be hard to write for then say maybe some cheesy family sitcom (which I do enjoy and never admit to normally in public). Even long running dramas don't necessarily have the same kind of massive info dump writers would have to wade through to be able to do it successfully. In all fairness to the new writers, I think it would be next to impossible to not have watched this show regularly and be able to write for it. There doesn't seem to be a bible and in one season we have angels being immensely powerful able to fling people around and suddenly later on they always use fist fighting till the stabby stab happens. We've got something like Cas who is all BAMF one second and then wibble wobbles unable to not be cursed by a witch. Or Sam and Dean who still have personality shifts and it's a credit to the dedication of the cast that keeps any of their core traits together. Long running shows like Law & Order for example wouldn't require much research outside of the characters and a basic understanding of the judicial system. Supernatural is on par with The X-Files in my eyes. They both have story histories in place (SPN: , family business begat by tragedy, ongoing angel wars; X-Files: alien conspiracy coverup, the rise of the Consortium ) as well as the MOTW episodes. There were key episodes that explained the character motivations as well as the universe itself that would have to be understood in order to be faithful to the show and the fans that are loyal to the show. The show runner should be the one to require viewing of these episodes before giving the writers free reign to pen their scripts. With only 25 shows viewed I doubt that Dabb made that a requirement for Perez. 1 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 14 minutes ago, Airmid said: Dean could have been honest. All these years and what does he do? Lie and lie some more. He could have told Sam the real truth and I think Sam would have stayed for him. They even could have had Gadreel wipe Sam's mind of the possession so Sam didn't panic eject the angel and still gone ahead with the rest of the plot. Dean was being told by Gadreel that if he told Sam, he would reject him and he would die. He'd already done the deed of allowing Sam to be possessed to save his life, so he wasn't going to allow him to die at that point, even though he absolutely wanted to tell Sam the truth. As for wiping Sam's mind, I don't see how that doesn't make an already bad situation 10 times worse. 2 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: You did see the next part of my post didn't you? Straight after that I clarified I clarified why I personally am more forgiving of Castiel. Castiel's breaking of Sam's wall was wrong and you won't hear me say otherwise. However, a real deal breaker for me is the fact that at least Castiel later admitted he was wrong to do so and tried to make up for it. Had we not had that, had Castiel insisted in season 7 he was right to break Sam's wall I would not be willing to forgive him either. I guess you could say I'm willing to forgive almost anything. However, a character has to actually realise what they did is wrong and learn from the experience to earn said forgiveness. Cas and Sam demonstrated remorse and apologised to the one they wronged. Dean did not. I did see your post. Dean's actions when he accepted Gadreel's proposal was a heat of the moment decision as you stated was Castiel's decisions. No where in my reply did I state that his actions in the months that followed fell under the same category if you read my post. Edited March 12, 2017 by DeeDee79 Link to comment
Myrelle March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: Bit in Bold 3: So wait abuse is OK as long as its only mental and emotional? In that case, Sam's words to Dean in this episode were absolutely nothing also as Sam didn't opt to use his fists to hurt Dean. No. I was trying to say that if you felt that all the mental and emotional abuse(in addition to the physical abuse) that Dean suffered at both Sam's and Cas' hands in the past meant nothing AND that the mental and emotional abuse that Dean felt from the Purge speech meant nothing than Sam's strictly mental and emotional abuse made you lose it for the Dean character for some reason and from your posts it sounds like it was basically just the consent issues which also make it sound to me like a "hot button" issue for you. My feeling is that Sam always had a choice and he chose life-that he wasn't fully "informed" by Dean made the storyline a dark storyline for Dean(and for those who saw what he did as an egregious sin). I did not see what he did as so egregious that I could never forgive the character for it, nor do I blame him for admitting that he would likely do it again(that to me was just Dean admitting that he's too far gone to ever be able to say that he'd never do it again-and as such, just being honest, about himself, to both Sam and himself). You(and possibly Sam, at the time) just saw him as being MEEN! to Sam. I think that Sam learned the lengths that both he AND his brother would go to save the other through the both the DemonDean and MoC storylines, and in that way, he was able to more fully comprehend and understand the position that Dean was in back then and so, he let it go. That was the story. Fandom is different. Sometimes it's harder for some in fandom to let things go, especially if it involves a "hot button" issue to an individual. I have mine, too. This is just not one of them AND I feel that Sam's consent wasn't completely ignored/disregarded. He made the choice to live. IMO, Dean just ran with that one and made the choice to not tell him afterwards because IMO he was 1)afraid that Sam would choose death again if he knew of the possession-which he likely would have and 2)did not want to be left alone/abandoned again AKA in this fandom as the "selfish" choice because it's not like Dean's head is still fucked up at all from his totally messed up childhood anymore, or anything like that. 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: The most prominent thing `for me from the Gadreel storyline didn`t happen onscreen. It was an interview where Jared gushed about a "wet dream of a storyline" (actual quote) while Jensen sat there and had nothing to say, he just looked bored. So, yeah, imagine how much I loved that construct, especially on the heels of the atrocious Season 8.B. And on top of all this they used this to drag Dean through the mud as gleefully as possible. I hate having the writing shove something down my throat, I will push back against it. And I did here. Yes, what Dean did was absolutely horrible but I wouldn`t hate him for it just because the writers wanted to. Meanwhile, they obviously wanted me to cheer Sam on in the Purge and agree with every single word he said. That`s what bugged me that it was like the writers speaking through Sam there, saying "yes, Dean is a horrible, selfish, delusional coward and has never been anything else". It didn`t come across to me as Sam saying untrue stuff because he was so angry but as if he was supposed to be speaking the truth. Again, my response was that the writers could suck it. Their very writing is the reason for my having more sympathy for Dean and way less for the other characters they try to sell me way too hard. It was never equal for me either, I`m not about to say any differently, but I have certainly found more reason to dig in my protectiveness for the character. Awesome post!!!! I'll say again for the umpteenth time: the writers tried their best to demolish the character in this storyline. 2 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: I did see your post. Dean's actions when he accepted Gadreel's proposal was a heat of the moment decision as you stated was Castiel's decisions. No where in my reply did I state that his actions in the months that followed fell under the same category if you read my post. Then I must have worded my original post badly and it led to you misunderstanding what I meant so I apologise for that. The point I was trying to make was that for me if Dean had done what he did and then instantly tried to tell Sam the truth it could be described as a hot headed heat of the moment action. However, the fact he proceeded to continue to lie to Sam for months after the act makes it cross the line from "heat of the moment" to "calculated" for me. But to be honest like I said in my last post the biggest difference for me between the two was the fact that Castiel showed remorse for breaking Sam's wall, while Dean showed no remorse for his part in the possession drama. I find it hard to forgive an action I vehemently disagree with if the character doesn't even acknowledge the fact what they did was wrong. I would feel the exact same way if upon his return during The Born Again Identity Castiel tried to justify his actions with something along the lines of "I had to break your wall Sam. I needed Dean distracted in order to win the war against heaven. It was a needed diversionary tactic". Edited March 12, 2017 by Wayward Son 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: Then I must have worded my original post badly and it led to you misunderstanding what I meant so I apologise for that. The point I was trying to make was that for me if Dean had done what he did and then instantly tried to tell Sam the truth it could be described as a hot headed heat of the moment action. However, the fact he proceeded to continue to lie to Sam for months after the act makes it cross the line from "heat of the moment" to "calculated" for me. But to be honest like I said in my last post the biggest difference for me between the two was the fact that Castiel showed remorse for breaking Sam's wall, while Dean showed no remorse for his part in the possession drama. I find it hard to forgive an action I vehemently disagree with if the character doesn't even acknowledge the fact what they did was wrong. I understand your viewpoint. I do think that it's important to remember that Dean did try to tell Sam what he had done and at one point Gadreel emerged and warned him against it by stating that if Sam objected and expelled him he would immediately die. Also once he learned that it wasn't Ezekiel (who he thought was on the up and up via Castiel ) he took action and sought help to expel him. We've seen since the beginning of the series that family is everything to Dean and Sam's well being is more important than everything in his eyes. This is the reason why I am able to forgive his actions and understand when he said "I'd do it again". He wasn't saying "screw you I'll do what I want to you" he was saying " I'll do whatever is necessary to make sure that you're okay". You see it as abusive, I do not. 5 Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 37 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: Long running shows like Law & Order for example wouldn't require much research outside of the characters and a basic understanding of the judicial system. Supernatural is on par with The X-Files in my eyes. They both have story histories in place (SPN: , family business begat by tragedy, ongoing angel wars; X-Files: alien conspiracy coverup, the rise of the Consortium ) as well as the MOTW episodes. There were key episodes that explained the character motivations as well as the universe itself that would have to be understood in order to be faithful to the show and the fans that are loyal to the show. The show runner should be the one to require viewing of these episodes before giving the writers free reign to pen their scripts. With only 25 shows viewed I doubt that Dabb made that a requirement for Perez. Totally. It's on the show runner to keep the writer's room in order and make sure the plot itself arcs correctly. So while I may detest the writing for an episode like the last one, based on what the writer had to work from and glean from I don't hold him responsible for going with something that wasn't right. It is Dabb's responsibility and he seems rather disinterested in the past. What they need is a bible, like eleven years ago. I actually thought of the same two examples you did when I was writing that post too, since I thought they covered both angles really well. Especially since the are both different in how the approach the story and how it unfolds. 41 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: Dean was being told by Gadreel that if he told Sam, he would reject him and he would die. He'd already done the deed of allowing Sam to be possessed to save his life, so he wasn't going to allow him to die at that point, even though he absolutely wanted to tell Sam the truth. As for wiping Sam's mind, I don't see how that doesn't make an already bad situation 10 times worse. I meant that Dean should have told the truth from the get go. And with all of Gadreel's hand waving (UO - I don't think he was good at all) Dean should have been more proactively trying to protect his brother. If Gadreel had wiped Sam's mind after he consented then one) no non-con issues and two) it wouldn't have been Dean or Sam's fault at that point for being lied to and trying to make the best choice under impossible circumstances. Not that the mind wipe didn't happen in the show - it did. And that made the whole consent thing even worse. In fact if they had just gone with the truth angle they still could have pushed the Gadreel story along with the angel doing things while Sam 'slept' or Sam losing time etc, making them suspicious until the reveal and Gadreel overtaking Sam entirely. But I guess that wouldn't have caused half a season of secret guilty hand wringing and another half of brotherly angst. Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Airmid said: I actually thought of the same two examples you did when I was writing that post too, since I thought they covered both angles really well. Especially since the are both different in how the approach the story and how it unfolds. Jack McCoy is one of the best characters ever created and I can find a way to compare/contrast everything to The X-Files. Best show ever! Edited March 12, 2017 by DeeDee79 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said: Jack McCoy is one of the best characters ever created and I can find a way to compare/contrast everything to The X-Files. Best show ever! A comparison of the X Files to Supernatural is very apt at any rate. After all it was in many ways thepredecessor to Supernatural. Both shows feature two co-dependent leads and they both had complex conspiracies (the syndicate and aliens for X Files and Heaven and Hell for Supernatural). Several creative talents such as Kim Manners, John Shiban and David Nutter also involved with both shows. On the actor side of things the actors who played Samuel Campbell, Rufus Turner and Crowley were all X Files alumni. Several supernatural episodes are also homages to classic X Files episode. Season fours Family Remains is a homage to the X Files episode Home while Monster Movie was based on the X Files episode The Post Modern Prometheus. 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Wayward Son said: Kim Manners, John Shiban and David Nutter also involved with both shows This was part of the draw for me when I began watching. On top of Skinner and Mr. X I've seen many faces that I remember from MOTW episodes which I assume is due to both shows being filmed in Vancouver ( X-Files until season 5). It's fun to recognize the faces. Also Scully's father was in Sin City! Edited March 12, 2017 by DeeDee79 3 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 46 minutes ago, Airmid said: I meant that Dean should have told the truth from the get go. And with all of Gadreel's hand waving (UO - I don't think he was good at all) Dean should have been more proactively trying to protect his brother. If Gadreel had wiped Sam's mind after he consented then one) no non-con issues and two) it wouldn't have been Dean or Sam's fault at that point for being lied to and trying to make the best choice under impossible circumstances. I'm honestly a bit confused by what you're saying here. It's already been established that Dean couldn't tell Sam the truth about Gadreel, because Gadreel had convinced him that Sam would expel him and he would die. Sam dying was not an option for Dean, so he had no other choice but to allow Gadreel to remain and to not tell Sam. And I don't see how Gadreel wiping Sam's mind would alter the lack of consent issue that some of you have. He still wouldn't have had Sam's consent, but now he's compounded it by erasing Sam's memory. I don't see how that's better in any way, nor do I see how that would absolve Dean of his responsibility for the whole thing? 1 Link to comment
Airmid March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I'm honestly a bit confused by what you're saying here. It's already been established that Dean couldn't tell Sam the truth about Gadreel, because Gadreel had convinced him that Sam would expel him and he would die. Sam dying was not an option for Dean, so he had no other choice but to allow Gadreel to remain and to not tell Sam. And I don't see how Gadreel wiping Sam's mind would alter the lack of consent issue that some of you have. He still wouldn't have had Sam's consent, but now he's compounded it by erasing Sam's memory. I don't see how that's better in any way, nor do I see how that would absolve Dean of his responsibility for the whole thing? I meant that instead of lying to Sam while the latter was in a coma that he should have told him the truth and insisted that if Gadreel truly wanted to help he would do the same. Later on if Gadreel had then wiped Sam's mind it's not their fault. They were betrayed but still made an honest choice together about something. Dean's culpability comes from not being honest, not from wanting his brother. Sam should know that his dying isn't an option for Dean and if Dean actually fessed up and told him about doing crazy things then yeah, based on Sam having wanted to help his brother he probably would have chosen to live. This show has had issues with consent for a long time. If something can take over your body to the point where you have no say and go around committing acts that you never would then yeah, that's way up there. Sam's already had this happen to him several times throughout the series and then Dean turns around and does it. It's one for Dean to have sold his soul, it's another thing to let an angel rent his brother. Consent and what vessels are actually consenting too when given the choice is like never touched on ever. Demons are understandable - they're evil but that doesn't change the fact that Sam was written to have smexy fun times with one who was wearing a girl that was pretty much dead. And more than likely being given a choice wouldn't have allowed it knowing the situation. That's not even getting into angel's that are going around having sex or killing people. And Kelly Kline seems to be doing pretty good for a woman who was pretty much raped (she consented to the president, not to Lucifer) and being made pregnant without her opinion on the matter. I'm not even going to touch the whole dog episode with a ten foot pole with how many skeevy things that one had. It's fine for a show to bring up the issues but they need to be addressed in some way. 2 Link to comment
Mick Lady March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Supernatural is weird for me in that I actually know the individual writers. I don't mean I know them personally, but that I know their names and can usually pick out who wrote what episode just from watching it. Which has it's drawbacks and benefits, IMO. One of the benefits is that I got to watch a few of them grow with the show and watched them develop into full-fledged writers. I was just a little disappointed that Thompson never seemed to grow much. Although, it could be that he also didn't have anyone to water him, so to speak. It's strange TripleD, because I have never paid attention to the writers before Supernatural either! Now I have just as much fun as you, and I too can guess the writer based on just a few scenes. I miss Ben Edlund. 3 Link to comment
Mick Lady March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 17 hours ago, rue721 said: Re Perez saying he's seen 25 episodes of SPN I think it's kind of graceless for a new writer to be so flip, because the people who wrote and produced (and acted in and directed, etc) those other episodes that Perez apparently can't be bothered to watch are *Perez's own colleagues.* What kind of dummy says flat out that he hasn't even bothered to take a look at his own colleagues' work? These are people who might be working on the show with him *now.* It just seems really undiplomatic and unprofessional if nothing else. Also, there have been 15 episodes THIS SEASON. So I hope that he's not counting S12 episodes in his 25! That would be kind of hilarious, if he had watched literally like 10 episodes before starting to write his own. I couldn't believe this when I read your post! Good Chuck, in this time of "Binge watching" you'd think a writer could invest some time in getting to know the series. Watch at least the last three seasons for cryin' out loud! 1 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, Airmid said: I meant that instead of lying to Sam while the latter was in a coma that he should have told him the truth and insisted that if Gadreel truly wanted to help he would do the same. I get what you're saying here, but my point is that this makes it a completely different storyline. I don't disagree that the show could have avoided the consent issues by not having the plot play out the way it did, but based on how it was written, there really was no other way for it to play out and have Sam survive. The history of questionable consent on this show is a valid point, but again, it's on the writers to not go there or to at least acknowledge what they're doing. I don't see it happening any time soon. 4 Link to comment
Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I get what you're saying here, but my point is that this makes it a completely different storyline. I don't disagree that the show could have avoided the consent issues by not having the plot play out the way it did, but based on how it was written, there really was no other way for it to play out and have Sam survive. The history of questionable consent on this show is a valid point, but again, it's on the writers to not go there or to at least acknowledge what they're doing. I don't see it happening any time soon. Seeing as I didn't like Gadreel that's not a problem :P Being serious though, they could have hand waved the whole thing away rather easily if Sam had given consent. From anything to Gadreel wanting to hid to Sam trusting Dean enough to keep an eye of things if he chose not to be aware of the possession. I mean there's a lot of angles it could have worked from and perhaps given Gadreel a better redemption arc. Or if they insisted on his story as is, well that could still be a possibility. Instead they slid on home with the worst one possible and that makes me sad because it breaks the brother's up again, causes more pain, makes it less likely they will ever get over things etc. I think that whole incident kind of marked a turning point into 'do anything for each other' to 'saving each other no matter the consequences and destruction it causes'. This coupled with Dean asking Sam to stop the trials because he was afraid of loosing his brother really kind of did it for me. I wish they had chosen to stop those for a different reason. Pretty much any really. We still could have had Sam dying, still could have had deals that may go bad in the future, still get the whole angel war but gotten a better reason to dud out a bulk of the season's plot. Like closing hell trapped hell bound souls on earth which would cause all kinds of problems. Something like that. Then it makes sense to stop. And yeah I don't see consent ever being addressed. The hole's too deep and wide and this point to go near it without falling straight on down. Edited March 13, 2017 by Airmid 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 5 hours ago, Wayward Son said: By contrast Dean continued to lie and manipulate Sam for months after Gadreel's initial possession of him I feel like the mitigating circumstance of Gadreel LYING to Dean about Sam dying if he left his vessel is being completely overlooked in why Dean continued to keep it from Sam. 1 Link to comment
Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I feel like the mitigating circumstance of Gadreel LYING to Dean about Sam dying if he left his vessel is being completely overlooked in why Dean continued to keep it from Sam. How much of it was lying? Season Nine is one I don't really rewatch so I'm rusty but didn't they run into a goddess with Sheriff Sassy during Sam's possession who said he was all bits of tape and safety pins at that point? Yeah he was lying more towards the end of the possession when he could leave Sam and the guy wouldn't keel over but there was a very real time period in there that Sam could have. That Dean couldn't know Sam's actual health was the hook Gadreel used to keep justifying his existence in Sam but it wasn't a total lie either. It would have been nice for Dean to realize something could go very wrong much sooner and start developing a contingency plan and actually clue Kevin in. That wouldn't have prevented his death if Gadreel was motivated to get him dead but it would have made more sense then what we got. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Meanwhile, they obviously wanted me to cheer Sam on in the Purge and agree with every single word he said. That`s what bugged me that it was like the writers speaking through Sam there, saying "yes, Dean is a horrible, selfish, delusional coward and has never been anything else". It didn`t come across to me as Sam saying untrue stuff because he was so angry but as if he was supposed to be speaking the truth. Again, my response was that the writers could suck it. 5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said: I'll say again for the umpteenth time: the writers tried their best to demolish the character in this storyline. The following is my opinion only: I'll agree to disagree, because for me if that was the case, things would have gone much differently. There wouldn't have been a focus on Dean's hurt face after Sam's accusations, and Sam's accusations wouldn't have been obviously exaggerated and untrue. And most importantly, Sam would have stuck to his convictions at the end of season 9 rather than doing exactly what he said he wouldn't do by calling up Crowley. For me, the main reason for "The Purge" speech wasn't to say that Dean was wrong, but to show that Sam just didn't understand the situation... because once Sam was in the same position as Dean... he did the same thing as Dean had done. So see Sam was just a mean, unsympathetic hypocrite in that speech, but now he understands. For me, if the writers were really trying to demolish Dean's character, Gadreel would have remained straight up evil, not turned out to maybe just be a confused and/or misunderstood being who ended up playing a bigger part in saving the world from Metatron than Sam did. For me, if the writers were trying to demolish Dean's character Sam wouldn't have turned around and done the same thing. If they were trying to demolish Dean's character, taking on the mark of Cain wouldn't have resulted in Dean succeeding in getting rid of Abbaddon, complete with a special episode where Sam agrees that getting rid of her is a priority. For me, if they were trying to demolish Dean's character, the main repercussions for Dean taking on the mark of Cain would have been on Dean, not shifted over to Sam because he did that very thing he said he wouldn't do. It was an interesting way to take care of both things: the Gadreel possession question and Dean taking on the mark: the first because Sam did the same thing - and was even worse while doing so - and the second because things didn't get "bad" until Sam decided to "fix" it, complete with lying to Dean to make sure it was shown that Dean's lies weren't so bad after all. As a bonus, Sam's accusations in "The Purge" were now not only to be shown to be factually incorrect, in case there was any doubt, Sam lied, because he would do the same thing, so therefore we can disregard everything Sam said as coming from a lying liar who lies. And in case there was still any doubt, see Sam started an apocalypse. Again. So for me, if the writers were trying to demolish Dean's character and doing their best to show me that Dean was a "horrible, selfish, coward" they wouldn't have 1) "redeemed Gadriel - complete with Sam calling him a "true friend" 2) made Sam a hypocrite 3) made Sam also lie and do exactly what Dean did, right down to getting someone killed 4) made sure it was Sam in the wrong by having him start the apocalypse, and then later made sure we understood it was Sam's - not Dean's fault - by having God himself say that it wasn't Dean's fault. The writers had no problem with not giving Sam an "out" in season 8. They just let his not looking for Dean - and Kevin - stand, and then doubled down by having him be crappy to Dean and reject Benny - who was shown to be "good." There was no plot where Dean turned around and didn't look for Sam. Nope Dean went above and beyond to save Sam, only to have Sam callously reject poor Dean until he learned to "see the light." For me, I'm not really seeing how this was trying to demolish Dean's character in any serious was or show Dean as cowardly and delusional when in the end, almost everything was either brushed aside (Gadreel helping and being called a "friend" and Sam doing the same thing, so Dean wasn't delusional at all, but just telling the truth) or mostly blamed on Sam (the Darkness.) 5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said: I love the way that you put this. It irks me when Dean's faults are regarded as if he's an actual person while Sam's faults are regarded as "bad writing". They're both character who have suffered from bad writing so overall the onus should be on the writers for making them deplorable. I agree that both characters suffer from bad writing. I think in general I defend Sam more often, because for me the narrative is much less likely to give Sam "an out" from the OOC writing than it is Dean. The Gadreel example from above is a good illustration of this. Compare this to - and I understand the comparison is a loose one - Dean and Benny. When Sam complains about Benny even though typically he's usually the one to accept monsters can be good, he's not given an "out" for that somewhat OOC behavior by say Benny actually turning out to be evil - or at least being overtly questionable. Dean goes over the top and helps Gadreel and lies about it, but Dean gets an "out" because Gadreel helps, and Sam calls him a "friend." In my opinion, it couldn't get much more revisionist history than that. It wasn't that long before that Sam talking about having to see his hands killing Kevin, but now Gadreel is not an even an ally, but a "friend?" Okay sure show, whatever. So much for the trauma Gadreel supposedly caused. I guess Sam's just a big, old drama queen then, and good thing Dean lied, so that this "friend" could be around to help defeat Metatron. I know some will disagree, but for me that was a huge narrative "out" for Dean. And it's still happening now with this latest being the Sam saying "I'm in" plot. Not only isn't Sam given any subtlety to this - at least Dean is looking reluctant about the BMoL thing - Sam's forced to double down by lying to Dean (to make sure we know Sam's "wrong") and by having to give "alternative facts" to support his OOC behavior with declaring that the BMoL were the ones who killed the Alpha vampire - which we obviously saw didn't happen. So is Sam only saying that just to sway Dean? And if so why? So I don't know about anyone else, but this is generally why I more tend to blame the writing in Sam's case than Dean's, because Dean is more often given an out or a fix for his OOC behavior or he is supported somehow by the narrative. For me, Sam is much less likely to get that. More often they just let his OOC behavior stand as is. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Airmid said: How much of it was lying? Season Nine is one I don't really rewatch so I'm rusty but didn't they run into a goddess with Sheriff Sassy during Sam's possession who said he was all bits of tape and safety pins at that point? 9.1 Quote DEAN Yeah, but he's gonna wake up, right? EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY He will. DEAN So, what he does – what, is he gonna feel you inside, triaging his spleen? EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I'm in here at all. DEAN You're joking. No, this is – this is too big. EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY And what will he do if you do tell him he is possessed by an angel? DEAN Well, he'll have to understand. EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die .DEAN Then we keep it a secret for now. Or until Sam's well enough that he doesn't need an angelic pacemaker or I find a way to tell him. I - I... As for him being in a hospital, I'll have to figure something 9.2 Quote ZEKE!SAM But it is why I said yes. DEAN Yeah, and if that goes sideways, that's on me too. ZEKE!SAM That's not going to happen. DEAN This is nuts. I mean, you're Sam, but you're not Sam, and normally he's the one I'm talking to about all this stuff. I'm trusting you, Zeke. I just gotta hope that you're one of the good guys. ZEKE!SAM I am. (beat) But I suppose that is what a bad guy would say. (beat) Dean Winchester, you are doing the right thing. 9.3 Quote EZEKIEL Bartholomew is massing a force. We cannot stand an incursion. Castiel is in danger, and if he is here, I am in danger. DEAN Wait, you're in danger? From who, the angels? EZEKIEL If he stays, I am afraid I will have no choice but to leave. DEAN Oh, no, you can't do that. Sam's not well enough. If you leave his body... EZEKIEL I know. I am sorry. 9.4 Quote DEAN: No. You can bring her back like you did with Cas. EZEKIEL: I cannot keep doing that. DEAN: Why the hell not?! EZEKIEL: I am barely back to half-strength, Dean. Every time I use my power, it weakens me, which means I will have to stay in your brother longer than you want -- longer than we both want. The witch running around your bunker is very powerful. I can help with the witch or save your friend. DEAN: Save her. EZEKIEL:As you wish. 9.8 Quote DEAN Oh, come on, Sam. SAM I'm a mess, Dean. You know it. And sometimes, I feel like maybe I'm never gonna actually be all right. DEAN You will. All right, 'cause whatever it is, we'll figure it out. SAM Or this is... just the way I am. [DEAN closes his eyes in resignation. He shakes his head and goes to sit next to his brother.] DEAN I can't. I can't let you put this on yourself. Listen to me. It's not you, Sam. [SAM's eyes glow bright blue and EZEKIEL starts to speak.] EZEKIEL I wouldn't do that, Dean. DEAN He deserves to know. EZEKIEL Your brother is not ready. If he ejects me, he will not make it. DEAN Damn it, Zeke! How much longer we got to keep playing this? EZEKIEL Not much longer. I promise you that. 9.9 Quote EZEKIEL-IN-SAM Yes. Sam is much improved. It shouldn't be much longer now. DEAN Okay, you know you said the same thing to me last week, right? EZEKIEL-IN-SAM As I told you when we met – this will take time. DEAN (impatiently, frustrated) (exhales in frustration) Okay, well, go then. Heal. I'd like my brother back, please. EZEKIEL-IN-SAM (stiffly) I must say, Dean, I'm very uncomfortable with this whole trip. Investigating crimes involving angels – or anything involving angels – puts me, and therefore, Sam, at risk. DEAN Well, family business, Zeke. Okay? If we ignore this, Sam's gonna think that something fishy's going on. EZEKIEL-IN-SAM (pause) Then I trust you will be discreet. DEAN (pause) Wait, if you know where we're going, that means you've been listening in. Are you – are you hearing everything between me and Sam? So, for most of the first half s9 . - Gadreel pretended to be Ezekiel (LIE) - Gadreel continued to manipulate Dean whenever he asked how Sam was doing. ETA -- It was 9.5 - Dog Dean Afternoon monster wondered what Sam was and saw Ezekiel!Sam heal Sam. Dean had no way of knowit whether Ezekiel was telling the truth or not. Ezekiel ingratiated himself further with Dean by saving Cas and Charlie at the risk of Sam not being healed. Sheriff Donna was in The Purge which was 9.12 . Edited March 13, 2017 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 9.8 (found it, glad to know I wasn't hallucinating episodes*) Quote VESTA Your liver. It's -- it's no good. Dear boy, you're all duct tape and safety pins inside. How are you alive? Of course two episodes later** they have concluded the Angel-in-a-Sam plot line and he's a okay that some little healing prods from Cas wouldn't fix. The same angel who said a season ago that the trials where changing Sam on a molecular level that even he couldn't heal, as a Seraph. And it's never explained how strong Gadreel is, or if the trial damage could ever be undone since it's already occurred and doesn't need the trials to keep going to already be fatal... *Cough* Sorry, back on track. Mind you I'm not saying Gadreel didn't lie and manipulate Dean through a lot of it for various reasons. Only that whether or not Sam could survive without him may not have been a lie until later on. It was an emotional barb to get Dean to back down and not think. At least at the start it was the truth that made it a very powerful tool for the continuation of Gadreel's own plans but that doesn't make it a lie. In fact, I would say that because it was true makes it an even more powerful weapon. * I actually only ever watched this episode once, and the only reason I even remember this line is just how the actress says it. Wish I could remember where I put my keys half as well. ** My goof - it was two whole episodes before Sam was angel free again, not one. Edited March 13, 2017 by Airmid 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 Ezekiel lied about his identity from the jump. He wasn't Ezekiel, the angel for whom Cas could vouch. He was instead Gadreel, the sentry angel who let Lucifer into the Garden. He lied to stay hidden from the angels. Dean didn't know that until Cas told him who he was in 9.9 but by then it was all too late. IMO S9 was always about "Unintended Consequences of Actions Born of Good Intentions" 3 Link to comment
Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 Catrox, my original response was for this: 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: I feel like the mitigating circumstance of Gadreel LYING to Dean about Sam dying if he left his vessel is being completely overlooked in why Dean continued to keep it from Sam. For which Vesta, an uninvolved third party with no reason to state anything but the truth completely verifies that Sam is in bad shape. Now, we don't know if that's because Gadreel isn't healing Sam to keep the threat over Dean viable (when lying had been his go to this whole time anyways) or why Sam went from half walking to corpse to pretty okay when they got ready to oust his squatter. I don't remember ever seeing it explained but season nine being my least favorite is the one I am the least familiar with. From a character motivation point of view it makes no sense for Gadreel to just not heal Sam when Dean has jack ways of knowing if Sam is alright and learn the angel has been lying. Gadreel lied for many reasons from perfectly understandable (being an angel who allowed Lucifer into the Garden would put him on the hit list of many) to not so sympathetic (working with Metatron). I personally don't think he was lying about Sam's condition for most of Season 9's first half and used it to gain every advantage he possibly could over Dean. Despicable? Of course, very. Untrue? No. Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) I'm gonna go back and rewatch s9 which I don't mind at all because I like that season in general minus a few stinkers. It's not just dialogue but also acting choices that convey lying/shady behavior. Every time Dean was ready to tell Sam the truth, Ezekiel had a reason to not let that happen which saved his own ass and IMO some of Jared's work suggested Ezekiel was lying. YMMV. Regardless, IMO, even if Gadreel was not lying about Sam's full condition, Dean was still being manipulate by Gadreel to NOT let Sam go. IMO, that is STILL a mitigating factor as to why Dean continued to not tell Sam before Road Trip. Again YMMY Edited March 13, 2017 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: I feel like the mitigating circumstance of Gadreel LYING to Dean about Sam dying if he left his vessel is being completely overlooked in why Dean continued to keep it from Sam. I understand why (from his perspective) Dean didn't tell Sam about Gadreel. The point I'm making though is that IMO it is Sam's right to make the ultimate decision on his fate. Sam is a grown man with the right to self-autonomy and control over his own destiny. He is not some toy or puppet for Dean to take control of when he fears Sam may make a choice he dislikes. . 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: So for me, if the writers were trying to demolish Dean's character and doing the best to show me that Dean was a "horrible, selfish, coward" they wouldn't have 1) "redeemed Gadriel - complete with Sam calling him a "true friend" 2) made Sam a hypocrite 3) made Sam also lie and do exactly what Dean did, right down to getting someone killed 4) made sure it was Sam in the wrong by having him start the apocalypse, and then later made sure we understood it was Sam's - not Dean's fault - by having God himself say that it wasn't Dean's fault The Gadreel example from above is a good illustration of this. Compare this to - and I understand the comparison is a loose one - Dean and Benny. When Sam complains about Benny even though typically he's usually the one to accept monsters can be good, he's not given an "out" for that somewhat OOC behavior by say Benny actually turning out to be evil - or at least being overtly questionable. Dean goes over the top and helps Gadreel and lies about it, but Dean gets an "out" because Gadreel helps, and Sam calls him a "friend." In my opinion, it couldn't get much more revisionist history than that. It wasn't that long before that Sam talking about having to see his hands killing Kevin, but now Gadreel is not an even an ally, but a "friend?" Okay sure show, whatever. So much for the trauma Gadreel supposedly caused. I guess Sam's just a big, old drama queen then, and good thing Dean lied, so that this "friend" could be around to help defeat Metatron. I know some will disagree, but for me that was a huge narrative "out" for Dean. So I don't know about anyone else, but this is generally why I more tend to blame the writing in Sam's case than Dean's, because Dean is more often given an out or a fix for his OOC behavior or he is supported somehow by the narrative. For me, Sam is much less likely to get that. More often they just let his OOC behavior stand as is. Perfectly put @AwesomO4000! It's for all the reason you state here that I completely disagree with any suggestion that Sam is being used as a mouth piece for the writers during The Purge. The entire narrative of the season shows us otherwise. We were clearly meant to see Dean as the hero of the piece who lovingly saved his brother. While Sam was the ungrateful git who not only overreacted and made nasty remarks against poor heroic Dean, but was ultimately proven to be a liar to boot. In regards to Benny IMO there are two main reasons for Sam showing the hostility he did. 1) Sam felt guilty for giving up on Dean and as a resulted developed an irrational dislike of Benny for being there when he wasn't. 2) Dean knowingly or unknowingly excaberated those feelings by using Benny as a weapon to put Sam down. How many times did he feel the need to point out how much better than Sam Benny was? In my opinion we need to think of it this way. If the show were to separate the brothers for a year again and Sam returned with a new friend who he declared to be "the best and most loyal friend friend he ever had". Do we really think Dean wouldn't be hurt by those words? That he wouldn't feel some level of resentment for this friend who Sam claims to hold in higher regard than him? Edited March 13, 2017 by Wayward Son 4 Link to comment
shang yiet March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) All the reasons given to excuse Dean's bad actions can also be used to excuse Sam. Totally messed up childhood? Check. Hurt and pain suffered over the years from enemies and family? Check. Suffered mental and physical abuse from loved ones and angel friend? Check. Good intentions? Check. Main intention to save brother's life? Check. So I am happy to sympathize with Sam. By the way, consent is a big issue given Sam's history with possession, free will and control and Dean should have realized this before going on the defensive. Quote It irks me when when Dean's faults are regarded as if he's an actual person while Sam's faults are regarded as bad writing. I feel like the opposite. When Sam does bad things, fandom says he's a selfish jerk who just doesn't appreciate his wonderfully self-sacrificing brother. But when Dean does bad things, it's just because all the writers/showrunners are in love with Sam. They just want to tear Dean down for the sake of drama, they want to drag Dean down in the mud, they want to ruin him like they ruined Sam and Cas, they don't understand he's not actually a callous and insensitive person. Quote I wouldn't hate Dean for it just because the writers wanted to. The writers don't want you to judging from the end of that season. They want you to think he's right as always and so brave for standing his ground and look, Sam was the one who had to learn a lesson, back down and admit he lied. Quote wanted me to cheer Sam on in The Purge ... having more sympathy for Dean. Actually, they did want you to have more sympathy for Dean since like I said above, end result was he was right after all and Sam was so wrong for daring to be angry over Gadreel. So you actually did what the writers wanted you to do. Now, my sympathy stayed firmly with Sam because I just hated that resolution to the Gadreel plot and felt it ignored Sam's legitimate anger, hurt and pain. Edited March 13, 2017 by shang yiet 7 Link to comment
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