“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Harleycat]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And yet Sam has been shown to say that Dean holds him back. And the narrative in many cases has taken Dean off screen and away from Sam, so Sam can grow. Dean himself has been made to say several times that he has to let Sam grow up to Sam and to other characters.

I, for one, despise that Dean is both expected to prop Sam, cajole Sam, and encourage Sam, and at the same time the narrative criticizes him for doing it. Then when Dean criticizes Sam, and now Cas,  and Jack, he's mean and doesn't love him.

And I don't expect the narrative will never not do that to him.

To be fair, Sam does need to grow up. The writers at least aren't blind to that. And while Sam has said that Dean holds him back he hasn't said that in a long time, and even when he did he was just being a brat who was rebelling against his father figure (while not acknowledging that Dean never chose to be his father figure in the first place). I agree that he shouldn't have to constantly take care of Sam, but as long as they are together that seems like how it is going to be.

When has it ever been implied that Dean doesn't love his family? Even when he put Jack in the box it was something that he had been prepared to do to himself. He just doesn't put his love of his family above the greater good.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

When has it ever been implied that Dean doesn't love his family?

I didn't imply that nor did the show. Where are you getting that question from out of what I said?  I guess I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't imply that nor did the show. Where are you getting that question from out of what I said?  I guess I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

Let me correct myself. 

When I say "Dean doesn't love him" it's the narrative saying it when it's convenient for Sam or anyone else to be the more kind person, the more loving person, the more heroic character than Dean, the more anything than Dean. Yet the show has Dean do and say things to prove his loyalty and devotion to Sam, Cas etc and then condemns him for doing that.  

When the show lets Dean have true moments of independenence from  the emotional, and mental abuse he takes from Sam, Cas and even Jack, then it's framed that Dean is somehow wrong to do it.   Even his relationship to Benny, which was probably the closest he had to independence from Sam and Cas, was inevitably framed as wrong because Sam was upset by it.  

It should make Dean complex (and I see him as incredibly complex) IF the show gave Dean some perspective at the time.  Jensen does his best to pepper Dean's head and emotional space into the role but when the tell and show undermine Dean it puts Dean in the mean guy caricature. IF one doesn't necessarily pick up on what Jensen is playing, IMO, (MMV), then Dean the caricature is what stands on film according to the other characters and the narrative.  It amounts to Dean just doesn't love anyone in the :right' way.

Hope that helps clarify what I mean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

If I have to read one more tweet/Tumblr post/recap about how Jack is Dean/Sam's or worse,  Dean/Asstiel's 'son' I am going to puke. He is not. Period. At the very most he became their ward, and the idea that they are welcoming into the fold as a heart-eating monster, is an affront. 

Dean didn't kill Jack because Chuck manipulated [Dean] and he will always rebel against being told what to do by a monster, not because Jack didn't need killing. 

I'm 100% sure if they show Mary before the end  they will have her forgive the Nougat for killing her. I was going to say she'd likely blame herself,  but we all know she'd probably find a way to blame Dean. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
Clarity

[Castiels Cat]

Speculation on whether Jack should kill Chuck or why it's okay and that balance thing ...taken from The Gambler discussion....

‐---------

My guess is that the plan is that with Chick gone the Nougat goodness provides the balance...

OR...

Billie intends for him to kill Amara too leaving her and Just Jack....

OR....

Dabbler and Hacks have forgotten their own canon yet again.

-----

How does Javk have the power?

Well Jack is an archnephilim so he is super duper special and eve though he lost all of his grace and all of his soul and has died twice it doesn't matter. He is still super duper special. Only God can make grace and souls and God is afraid of Jack but somehow even though Lucifer stole and used his and he burned off his soul it doesn't matter. Apparently only fans think about this stuff.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Smad]

34 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Speculation on whether Jack should kill Chuck or why it's okay and that balance thing ...taken from The Gambler discussion....

‐---------

My guess is that the plan is that with Chick gone the Nougat goodness provides the balance...

OR...

Billie intends for him to kill Amara too leaving her and Just Jack....

OR....

Dabbler and Hacks have forgotten their own canon yet again.

-----

How does Javk have the power?

Well Jack is an archnephilim so he is super duper special and eve though he lost all of his grace and all of his soul and has died twice it doesn't matter. He is still super duper special. Only God can make grace and souls and God is afraid of Jack but somehow even though Lucifer stole and used his and he burned off his soul it doesn't matter. Apparently only fans think about this stuff.

 

None of this matters. And not only because none of Jack's abilities/powers make ANY SENSE AT ALL.

God is a PRIMORDIAL BEING. The end. Nothing more needs to be said. Jack is literally made out of/by God. Humans and Archangels are God's creation. Jack is powering himself up with God's creation. End of S14 God took care of Jack with a freaking finger snap. There is no way Jack can ingest a few Angels and expect their next encounter to go any differently than the previous ones, especially when we have previously seen him simply absorb 200k souls like it was nothing.

And again, Jack as replacement for God? What a load of crap. PRIMORDIAL BEING he is NOT. Never will be. Bunch of bull crap from Dabb & co..

[Lemuria]

12 hours ago, Harleycat said:

And while Sam has said that Dean holds him back he hasn't said that in a long time, and even when he did he was just being a brat who was rebelling against his father figure (while not acknowledging that Dean never chose to be his father figure in the first place). I agree that he shouldn't have to constantly take care of Sam, but as long as they are together that seems like how it is going to be.

Not that long ago:  he said it again late in season 13, that Dean had to stop putting him at the kiddie table—even though Dean had reasonable reasons for taking Ketch with him instead of Sam. And even though Sam went along with those reasons and agreed that he should stay behind.

So not only is Sam a grown man still whining that his brother needs to let him grow up—really, Sam?  Nobody is stopping you from growing up except you— but he also fails to take a real grownup stand on the issue and agrees to go along, only to bitch and complain later.

The only one putting Sam in the corner is Sam. 

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, Smad said:

None of this matters. And not only because none of Jack's abilities/powers make ANY SENSE AT ALL.

God is a PRIMORDIAL BEING. The end. Nothing more needs to be said. Jack is literally made out of/by God. Humans and Archangels are God's creation. Jack is powering himself up with God's creation. End of S14 God took care of Jack with a freaking finger snap. There is no way Jack can ingest a few Angels and expect their next encounter to go any differently than the previous ones, especially when we have previously seen him simply absorb 200k souls like it was nothing.

And again, Jack as replacement for God? What a load of crap. PRIMORDIAL BEING he is NOT. Never will be. Bunch of bull crap from Dabb & co..

Yes. True. However there is canon about nephilim being extraordinary powerful and archnephilim being just superduperfly. Lucifer made him because he wanted the power and AU Michael used the threat of Lucifer with that power as the carrot to lure Dean to say yes... thanks for the shiny new suit.

So the canon is Jack was all that. That is why Chuck had a kill nephilim rule which actually works with the bible because the flood was supposed to be God trying to kill nephilim.

However Jack wasn't killed and then he lost his power and he lost his soul and then he lost his soul. So it made no sense that he became supercalifragilistic + superduperfly after resurrection whilst sucking down his soul energy. And it made less sense that he went super nova with stolen grace that should have burned out quickly. This was a major problem for Castiel in seasons 9-10 and also for Lucifer in season 13.

 

[Harleycat]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. True. However there is canon about nephilim being extraordinary powerful and archnephilim being just superduperfly. Lucifer made him because he wanted the power and AU Michael used the threat of Lucifer with that power as the carrot to lure Dean to say yes... thanks for the shiny new suit.

So the canon is Jack was all that. That is why Chuck had a kill nephilim rule which actually works with the bible because the flood was supposed to be God trying to kill nephilim.

However Jack wasn't killed and then he lost his power and he lost his soul and then he lost his soul. So it made no sense that he became supercalifragilistic + superduperfly after resurrection whilst sucking down his soul energy. And it made less sense that he went super nova with stolen grace that should have burned out quickly. This was a major problem for Castiel in seasons 9-10 and also for Lucifer in season 13.

 

Just pretend like Jack doesn't exist. It's all much easier to watch that way.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Just pretend like Jack doesn't exist. It's all much easier to watch that way.

Of course, without Jack there's only about 5 minutes of the show.  

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Of course, without Jack there's only about 5 minutes of the show.  

😭

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. True. However there is canon about nephilim being extraordinary powerful and archnephilim being just superduperfly. Lucifer made him because he wanted the power and AU Michael used the threat of Lucifer with that power as the carrot to lure Dean to say yes... thanks for the shiny new suit.

So the canon is Jack was all that. That is why Chuck had a kill nephilim rule which actually works with the bible because the flood was supposed to be God trying to kill nephilim.

So what? Non of the canon actually makes sense. God could have easily gotten rid of Jack. There is nothing to say that something that God creates he can't also destroy to the point it can never be brought back. Plus if push comes to shove, he has that sister that is pure destruction who hates Luci so she should be totally up for destroying Jack.

But even an Archnephilim means squat to God. The only reason why he has a no neph allowed/kill neph rule is because they can effect things on a grander scale than regular Archangels. And a Neph would have no ties to God (unlike his Archangels) so would be less likely to accept God's commands/rules. But such a being in and of itself should be nothing to scare God personally. Scared they might screw with his story? Sure. But they are NO threat to him and his power. God's power is still way beyond anything an Archneph is capable off.

For the show to even entertain the idea that some low level schmuck like Jack can replace God is so laughable that I can only assume the IQ of the writers is below average.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

However Jack wasn't killed and then he lost his power and he lost his soul and then he lost his soul. So it made no sense that he became supercalifragilistic + superduperfly after resurrection whilst sucking down his soul energy. And it made less sense that he went super nova with stolen grace that should have burned out quickly. This was a major problem for Castiel in seasons 9-10 and also for Lucifer in season 13.

Which just brings us back to...Jack's powers NOT MAKING ANY SENSE.

[NougatJack]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

...

For the show to even entertain the idea that some low level schmuck like Jack can replace God is so laughable that I can only assume the IQ of the writers is below average.

... 

We‘re talking about a show in which Death, a being compareable in power as God, has been killed by a human and replaced by an ordinary reaper, so what?

 

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

We‘re talking about a show in which Death, a being compareable in power as God, has been killed by a human and replaced by an ordinary reaper, so what?

 

Well, he was killed by his own weapon (which was mentioned  back in season 5 as the only thing that could kill him.)  Hey, somebody remembered!  

[NougatJack]

And Chuck has been injured by his own weapon. I think anything can happen here. Chuck doesn´t seem to be that omnipotent being many peoply think of god.

Nevertheless, I don´t expect Jack to become god. It would be too obvious. But I hope it will be a good ending for him, and that he will stay with his choosen family.  

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, NougatJack said:

Nevertheless, I don´t expect Jack to become god. It would be too obvious. But I hope it will be a good ending for him, and that he will stay with his choosen family.  

Minus the mom, though.

[Smad]

7 hours ago, NougatJack said:

We‘re talking about a show in which Death, a being compareable in power as God, has been killed by a human and replaced by an ordinary reaper, so what?

 

Unless I'm mistaken Death is still around. Or am I wrong?

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Unless I'm mistaken Death is still around. Or am I wrong?

Billie as Death is still around.  Dean killed original recipe Death in Brother's Keeper.

[ahrtee]

Quote

Unless I'm mistaken Death is still around. Or am I wrong?

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Billie as Death is still around.  Dean killed original recipe Death in Brother's Keeper.

So maybe Death wears a meatsuit too.  The concept/character of death can't be killed, only its embodiment.  

People didn't stop dying in the time between Original Death's, um, death, and Billie taking over.  He said back in season 5 that eventually he'll reap God, which seems to make him more immortal than God?  

Edited February 3, 2020 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

People didn't stop dying in the time between Original Death's, um, death, and Billie taking over.  He said back in season 5 that eventually he'll reap God, which seems to make him more immortal than God?  

Or, he said it because he was arrogant.  Which is a weird trait for someone who was bound by Lucifer when he said it.  Also, later he was briefly bound by humans until super-Cas broke the binding.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or, he said it because he was arrogant.  Which is a weird trait for someone who was bound by Lucifer when he said it.  Also, later he was briefly bound by humans until super-Cas broke the binding.

Maybe.  But that still doesn't change the fact that people still died after he was "dead."  Consider the body count in season 11 alone. 😊

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe.  But that still doesn't change the fact that people still died after he was "dead."  Consider the body count in season 11 alone. 😊

I don't think the horsemen are fully in charge of their areas.  It's really the reapers who matter.  People can't die if there's no reaper to separate their soul from their body (Death Takes a Holiday).  I don't really know exactly what Death does specifically. It's never really been explained.  Maybe just "grand" scale stuff.  Bobby said the last time they yanked him up Noah was building an ark.  And Lucifer had him in charge of mass kill offs in Two MInutes to Midnight.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Katy M

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

There’s a lot of lack of consistency tbh. Tessa made it sound like she needed dean wearing the ring to touch people before she reaped them but, trap the reapers of a town and rather than a bunch of ghosts you get a bunch of people who just don’t die -suggesting that job is also outsourced to reapers...
Individual reapers were still doing their jobs so I’d liken the latency period between deaths as the same hands-off level of effectiveness he would have had pre-season 5. I always thought ‘yanked him up’ meant he had to be “released” from something originally anyway, or at least like called to action by one of the seals?

 

I kind of consider the Horsemen to be like the CEOs who make the big decisions but don't actually do the work or worry about day-to-day operations.  I think Death wanted Dean to actually touch the people because he was making a point and wanting Dean to see the real ramifications of the job, and *not* maintaining the natural order.  

OTOH, yes, there's certainly a lot of inconsistencies.  What about the Fates, who were weaving/cutting the threads to lives?  (She was complaining that the angels were "putting her out of business" by undoing deaths.)  

And, as you said, Death had been bound underground for millennia before he was released in season 5.  Dean even pointed out that before that he'd died several times himself; and Bobby said that this was the Big Boss, not seen upstairs since the Flood.  This implies to me at least that he only looks at the big picture and not the individual deaths.  Even Billie said her perspective towards the Winchesters in particular had changed since she took over.  

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Tessa made it sound like she needed dean wearing the ring to touch people before she reaped them

That never made any sense.  How could Death be everywhere at the same time.  I think Death just set that up as an exercise for Dean, in which case it does make perfect sense.

11 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Besides, it might actually still fall in line with God apparently needing to send Kevin to “heaven” in season 11 (something I also thought was dumb). We all just assumed it had been fixed with heaven opening up again, but obviously the veil was still at least a little screwed, so maybe a lack of deaths leadership had a hand there 

There was probably some backlog:)

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Individual reapers were still doing their jobs so I’d liken the latency period between deaths as the same hands-off level of effectiveness he would have had pre-season 5. I always thought ‘yanked him up’ meant he had to be “released” from something originally anyway, or at least like called to action by one of the seals?

I though yanked him up was because he was in his home place and Lucifer rose him and bound him to him so he was a Lucifer's Mercy at that point. I don't think God locked him away or anything.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So maybe Death wears a meatsuit too.  The concept/character of death can't be killed, only its embodiment.  

I thought that was obvious. Primordial beings have no 'look'. We saw what God and Darkness actually 'look' like when they left for their family vacation back in S11. Chuck and Amara are just the human looking 'meatsuits' they adopt. The show can't have them all look like their real selves, they would have no roles for actors and the cgi budget would be insane. Not to mention, can you imagine how stupid it would look to have Darkness in it's original form (black mist) but talking all the time? Remember how the Angels describe what they actually really look like? Castiel is supposed to be the size of the Crysler building. Zachariah was supposed to have several heads. That's what these beings actually look like. But that makes for some actor-less and expensive TV so everyone stays human looking pretty much all of the time (even in heaven).

Death, just like the other primordial beings, exists beyond a measuit.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

Remember how the Angels describe what they actually really look like? Castiel is supposed to be the size of the Crysler building. Zachariah was supposed to have several heads. That's what these beings actually look like. But that makes for some actor-less and expensive TV so everyone stays human looking pretty much all of the time (even in heaven).

I had a fanwank reason for why angels would do this somewhere on this board. It had to do with getting meatsuits - which can be tricky (as shown in season 9 with exploding people - which messy) - and then potentially having to have that meatsuit say "yes" again - maybe even more tricky.

So for an angel who is immortal, staying in your meatsuit for a while if you expect having to go back to earth any time soon might be more convenient than having to find another meatsuit or convincing your first one to say "yes" again - which based on Castiel and Hanna's meatsuit's reactions would be a hard sell.

A few years here and there doesn't mean much to an immortal being so, ehn just keep the somewhat confining suit on for a little while... it's better than having to break a new one in.

That was my fanwank anyway. (of course the real reason is because portraying angels as something else would be more expensive, but hey, I like me a fanwank explanation also anyway.)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Quote

Ackles had this to say about the top-secret series finale plot: “When we were in the room and the idea came down the pipe, everybody was kind of signed off on it. My reaction was more like, ‘OK, OK.’ I struggled with it for about a week or so, and then I realized I’m too invested, I’m too emotional. I’m too close to this character. To see anything with finality on it, it’s just hard to digest. I talked to a few people about it and got some clarity on it and have tried to look at it from a different perspective. I, now, have come around to being like, ‘This is a really good ending. This is satisfying.’”

Talk about two conflicting ideas.  I never read the comics and this wouldn't make me want to read them.  Jensen's comment this is a really good ending , satisfying will lead to anger at Jensen if the fans feel he gave a promise that can't be fulfilled.

This is about  Supernatural Ending, but my comment is going to be BvJ and also bitter speculation, so I don't really know where the right/wrong place is...

Is there any chance at all that Jensen wasn't sure about the ending because it's too Dean-centric? That maybe Dean does get to be a BDH, go down swinging, and that's too final for him?

Yeah, I know. Not likely, but a girl can dream. (PS... the 'fans' will find a reason to be mad at Jensen no matter how it ends. Count on it.)

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/3/2020 at 6:43 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Minus the mom, though.

Which he has shown no remorse for obliterating for talking to him.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is about  Supernatural Ending, but my comment is going to be BvJ and also bitter speculation, so I don't really know where the right/wrong place is...

Is there any chance at all that Jensen wasn't sure about the ending because it's too Dean-centric? That maybe Dean does get to be a BDH, go down swinging, and that's too final for him?

Yeah, I know. Not likely, but a girl can dream. (PS... the 'fans' will find a reason to be mad at Jensen no matter how it ends. Count on it.)

Heroes Journey as well as Lilith's monologue set this up as Dean vs. Chuck. 

Now Billie is using Jack... 

Dean did not seem on board with this.

All signs point to Dean being very much the BDH.

Sam is going to survive and get the life he always wanted away from hunting or at least with Eileen.

F@#! Cas.

On 2/3/2020 at 2:00 PM, Smad said:

I thought that was obvious. Primordial beings have no 'look'. We saw what God and Darkness actually 'look' like when they left for their family vacation back in S11. Chuck and Amara are just the human looking 'meatsuits' they adopt. The show can't have them all look like their real selves, they would have no roles for actors and the cgi budget would be insane. Not to mention, can you imagine how stupid it would look to have Darkness in it's original form (black mist) but talking all the time? Remember how the Angels describe what they actually really look like? Castiel is supposed to be the size of the Crysler building. Zachariah was supposed to have several heads. That's what these beings actually look like. But that makes for some actor-less and expensive TV so everyone stays human looking pretty much all of the time (even in heaven).

Death, just like the other primordial beings, exists beyond a measuit.

In Heaven I have six wings and four faces, one of which is a lion. . . Zachariah. Dark Side of the Moon. I love Kuet Fuller's delivery of this line.

[Aeryn13]

I think Dean dying has a good chance. Zero for being the BDH. I mean, the digs and putdowns in the last two episodes were so blatant and in your face, they dropped even all pretense of not hating the character. 

There is only somewhat of a question mark on how Nougat will supercede even Sam as BDH. Out-Stu-ed in your own Stu-ness, that might happen.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is only somewhat of a question mark on how Nougat will supercede even Sam as BDH.

I think that will be fairly easy. Sam hasn't had a BDH moment in over 8 seasons now (over half the show)... and I'm counting the season 6 finale here as the last time, since even though neither Sam or Dean won, they both put up a hell of a fight and did heroic things.

Season 7 doesn't count because it happened offscreen, so we don't really even know how much was Sam and how much was Kevin. Considering Kevin had to talk Sam into helping him - rather than going to help Dean - I give most of the credit to Kevin.

And no, in my opinion, season 12 doesn't count either. Sam doesn't get credit for talking other hunters into doing something they were already going to do anyway, and the "aw we can't have your brother with us (instead)?" vibes were too strong there. It was Jodi who was actually the BDH in my opinion.

The season 8 finale was the opposite of a BDH moment, or would have been except that season 9 managed to even outshine it in that regard. The only question is which one was more insulting to Sam's character? I'd say season 9, but it's a toss up.

If you want to count "Red Meat" then okay fine. Then Sam has had one BDH moment in one throw away episode where he saved maybe 3 people in the last 8 seasons.

I'm pretty sure that will be fairly easy to supercede.

[Aeryn13]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think that will be fairly easy. Sam hasn't had a BDH moment in over 8 seasons now (over half the show)... and I'm counting the season 6 finale here as the last time, since even though neither Sam or Dean won, they both put up a hell of a fight and did heroic things.

Season 7 doesn't count because it happened offscreen, so we don't really even know how much was Sam and how much was Kevin. Considering Kevin had to talk Sam into helping him - rather than going to help Dean - I give most of the credit to Kevin.

And no, in my opinion, season 12 doesn't count either. Sam doesn't get credit for talking other hunters into doing something they were already going to do anyway, and the "aw we can't have your brother with us (instead)?" vibes were too strong there. It was Jodi who was actually the BDH in my opinion.

The season 8 finale was the opposite of a BDH moment, or would have been except that season 9 managed to even outshine it in that regard. The only question is which one was more insulting to Sam's character? I'd say season 9, but it's a toss up.

If you want to count "Red Meat" then okay fine. Then Sam has had one BDH moment in one throw away episode where he saved maybe 3 people in the last 8 seasons.

I'm pretty sure that will be fairly easy to supercede.

What about all the big kills in Season 12? I`d say he got a BDH moment when he killed the Alpha Vamp and saved the BMOL pencil pushers. He got a BDH moment when he just yelled and all the demons in the room ran away, tail tucked between their legs. He got the BDH moment in basically the last episode when he was the one playing for the high stakes, making the bet and declaring that people mattered to him which influenced Fortuna. After solving the case on his own, I might add. Dean was the beach read after getting one trick shot done that got a cancer patient killed. Woohoo.  

Honestly, I don`t think Jared would love the Series Finale if there wasn`t significant role for Sam in it and IMO he already gave it away via a slip of the tongue. Which will also overlap with taking one more thing from Dean. Great.

Now Nougat might still be the big world-saving hero overall. Of the entire show.

I just know that Dean won`t get to be one at all. I just await the multiple putdowns, digs and degradations they can write in the remaining episodes and the Series Finale, making sure at least that one character goes out on a measly whimper.

Every other character, even Cas, might get some respectful nod from Dabb. But not Dean. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

58 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What about all the big kills in Season 12? I`d say he got a BDH moment when he killed the Alpha Vamp and saved the BMOL pencil pushers. He got a BDH moment when he just yelled and all the demons in the room ran away, tail tucked between their legs. He got the BDH moment in basically the last episode when he was the one playing for the high stakes, making the bet and declaring that people mattered to him which influenced Fortuna. After solving the case on his own, I might add. Dean was the beach read after getting one trick shot done that got a cancer patient killed. Woohoo. 

You and I have different interpretations of what a BDH moment is.

For me a BDH moment is one where lots of people - preferably innocent people - are saved, and more importantly the moment isn't taken away, ruined, or render moot later on.

Sure Sam got to kill the Alpha Vamp and save the questionable BMoL people...  only to have his character thrown under the bus by inexplicably joining the BMoL so he could be set up as wrong, wrong, wrong - and stupid - later on in that very same episode. Oh, and say that he'd talk Dean into it, too, to boot. Why I have no idea, but yeah let's throw that in there too to make Sam look badly.

That was not a "Sam is a BDH" moment for me. That was a "Sam is an idiot" moment with some faint praise thrown in there to soften the blow. Big difference in my opinion.

And pretty likely at least some of those BMoL people he saved were probably the same ones he and the hunters killed later on when they stormed the BMoL headquarters. So talk about making a supposed hero moment irrelevant.

Sam yelling at the demons was a plot device, in my opinion. A good way to take the demons off the table, so the writers wouldn't have to worry about that from then on. It was never mentioned again, and the writers made sure it didn't have any bearing on the plot thereafter either. It more made the demons look stupid rather than make Sam look like a hero... again not what a BDH would do for me. Yelling at demons isn't brave. It didn't save anyone or take any kind of skill or sacrifice. It moved the plot along so writers could get on to the next thing they really cared about. That's about it.

As for the last episode... Sam lost the game. Fortuna decided to make an exception for them - and, yes, "them"*** - but she didn't have to. It very easily could have gone the other way. That does not a BDH moment make, in my opinion. It's noble, yes, but noble doesn't save the day unless there's something else, too. Dean provided that "something else." The two of them together (see below) had a hero moment. (Not necessarily a Big Damn one, but a hero moment.)

Dean might be the "beach read" but the "beach read" is the one that gets the job done. It's more likely the one that you want on the dessert island with you. A "beach read" doesn't give a shit what you think of it. It does its job, you take it or you leave it. Plenty of other people will gladly pick it up and read it if you don't... your loss, baby.  And that's if Fortuna was being truthful with her motivation... I think she didn't want to play Dean, because she knew he would win. He wouldn't be as easy to manipulate. Because he's a "beach read." He doesn't need her validation. He has nothing he needs to prove.

And yes, that means that I think Sam does. That's Sam's new raison d'etre. Saving people gives him a purpose, and Sam needs that purpose now. He's messed up too many times - thanks Carver and Dabb - not to need that. That was something Fortuna could manipulate and use, so she chose Sam.

*** In my opinion Dean's getting Fortuna to see Chuck as a common enemy was a critical part of her deciding to help them. Sure, she was impressed with Sam's rather naive insistence that they try to save the others, but she's a god. "Character" only goes so far. there also has to be a "what's in it for me" aspect - which Dean provided by pointing out their common enemy - and, just as importantly, someone to balance out the "character" with a "we're going to get it done" attitude.

That was Dean on both counts - the "what's in it for me" and the actually likely to get it done.

That was my take on it right away.

Edited February 4, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You and I have different interpretations of what a BDH moment is.

For me a BDH moment is one where lots of people - preferably innocent people - are saved, and more importantly the moment isn't taken away, ruined, or render moot later on.

Sure Sam got to kill the Alpha Vamp and save the questionable BMoL people...  only to have his character thrown under the bus by inexplicably joining the BMoL so he could be set up as wrong, wrong, wrong - and stupid - later on in that very same episode. Oh, and say that he'd talk Dean into it, too, to boot. Why I have no idea, but yeah let's throw that in there too to make Sam look badly.

That was not a "Sam is a BDH" moment for me. That was a "Sam is an idiot" moment with some faint praise thrown in there to soften the blow. Big difference in my opinion.

And pretty likely at least some of those BMoL people he saved were probably the same ones he and the hunters killed later on when they stormed the BMoL headquarters. So talk about making a supposed hero moment irrelevant.

Sam yelling at the demons was a plot device, in my opinion. A good way to take the demons off the table, so the writers wouldn't have to worry about that from then on. It was never mentioned again, and the writers made sure it didn't have any bearing on the plot thereafter either. It more made the demons look stupid rather than make Sam look like a hero... again not what a BDH would do for me. Yelling at demons isn't brave. It didn't save anyone or take any kind of skill or sacrifice. It moved the plot along so writers could get on to the next thing they really cared about. That's about it.

As for the last episode... Sam lost the game. Fortuna decided to make an exception for them - and, yes, "them"*** - but she didn't have to. It very easily could have gone the other way. That does not a BDH moment make, in my opinion. It's noble, yes, but noble doesn't save the day unless there's something else, too. Dean provided that "something else." The two of them together (see below) had a hero moment. (Not necessarily a Big Damn one, but a hero moment.)

Dean might be the "beach read" but the "beach read" is the one that gets the job done. It's more likely the one that you want on the dessert island with you. A "beach read" doesn't give a shit what you think of it. It does its job, you take it or you leave it. Plenty of other people will gladly pick it up and read it if you don't... your loss, baby.  And that's if Fortuna was being truthful with her motivation... I think she didn't want to play Dean, because she knew he would win. He wouldn't be as easy to manipulate. Because he's a "beach read." He doesn't need her validation. He has nothing he needs to prove.

And yes, that means that I think Sam does. That's Sam's new raison d'etre. Saving people gives him a purpose, and Sam needs that purpose now. He's messed up too many times - thanks Carver and Dabb - not to need that. That was something Fortuna could manipulate and use, so she chose Sam.

*** In my opinion Dean's getting Fortuna to see Chuck as a common enemy was a critical part of her deciding to help them. Sure, she was impressed with Sam's rather naive insistence that they try to save the others, but she's a god. "Character" only goes so far. there also has to be a "what's in it for me" aspect - which Dean provided by pointing out their common enemy - and, just as importantly, someone to balance out the "character" with a "we're going to get it done" attitude.

That was Dean on both counts - the "what's in it for me" and the actually likely to get it done.

That was my take on it right away.

There are always a thousand and one reasons for why all the putdowns and digs don`t matter and why Dean doesn`t need the validation. But they matter to me. And I need the validation at this point. I`m sick and tired of Dean being snubbed all over the place. I don`t want to find excuses for it or go "well, maybe it was really meant as a compliment". 

For me the latest episode couldn`t have been more clear that Fortuna entirely dismissed him. She laughed at his comeback, entirely unimpressed. She just didn`t want to play him, not because she feared his skill but because he was not worth it in her eyes. If they didn`t mean that, someone should have given the actress different dialogue and more importantly different stage directions on how to play the scene. 

She adressed any bit of admiration/intrigue at Sam. And to me it was equally clear that Sam was set up as the high stakes player in the end and that he won, even by losing, because he is just so heroic and noble. Meanwhile Dean lost, even while winning.

He had to grab the coin from Sam`s noble hand to get some luck back. Aka, he gets the scraps from the table. But the dialogue there about including them both as heroes didn`t fit with the rest of the episode and was akin to a pity-crumb. 

The really sad thing? It was actually an upgrade from Dabb`s previous episode where Garth tells Sam he named one of his twins after him and then, when Dean assumes the other twin is named after him, is basically "put in his place" for cheap laughs. Garth might as well have been saying "no, not after you, you POS, I rather named my other baby after some guy I never met, you are dirt". And everyone laughed heartily about it. 

[FlickChick]

@Aeryn13, I agree 1000%. The put-downs and digs are coming fast and furious and increasing with each episode. The writers should be truly embarrassed with going along or creating these jabs at one of our lead characters. Shame on all of them, but it's obvious that Dabb is the leader in this regard. Sometimes I wonder what Jensen must think when he reads the scripts - full of ass-kissing for other characters and insults (including dialogue that he has to say himself) to his character that he has tried to take such good care of for over 14 years. It is infuriating to watch! 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Every other character, even Cas, might get some respectful nod from Dabb. But not Dean.

Spoiler

He's already gleefully relating how uncouth Dean's biggest nightmare is having to deal with manners. Yes, that's right, the guy who spent 40 years in Hell and had a pissed off Archangel in his head for weeks. That guys fear is not knowing which salad fork to use.

 

[Myrelle]

30 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@Aeryn13, I agree 1000%. The put-downs and digs are coming fast and furious and increasing with each episode. The writers should be truly embarrassed with going along or creating these jabs at one of our lead characters. Shame on all of them, but it's obvious that Dabb is the leader in this regard. Sometimes I wonder what Jensen must think when he reads the scripts - full of ass-kissing for other characters and insults (including dialogue that he has to say himself) to his character that he has tried to take such good care of for over 14 years. It is infuriating to watch! 

We definitely need an angry emoji on the side. 🤬

 

 

[ILoveReading]

Its only Dean these insults are directed at.  Its becoming more blatent and more frequent in every ep.

 

Spoiler

Rewatching the Drowning Shaving People, Punting things video to see what scenes we haven't seen yet, we still have Dean falling off the chair to look forward to.  So it seems like Dean might not have gotten his luck back.

Also I think next ep is when Teenage mutant Ninja Kaia Sue is back.  So I fully expect more put downs because Dean lost her spear.

 

[Harleycat]

To be fair Sam fans are probably just as frustrated with the current writing of his character. Sam is still the one who can't do anything without Dean after all these years. He's the one who gets knocked out or kidnapped any time he is four feet away from his brother. He is the one who is always wrong so Dean can be right. There is never any balance. The writers don't get that neither one of them needs to be right or that they could both be wrong sometimes. Plus he has no personality, he is just the dame in distress waiting for the hero to come save him. 

I hope they give Sam a hero moment for no other reason then that Dean deserves to see that he did well with Sam and that Sam may be able to take care of himself.

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

I hope they give Sam a hero moment for no other reason then that Dean deserves to see that he did well with Sam and that Sam may be able to take care of himself.

They did this exact same thing in Swan Song.  I didn't like it then and I have zero desire to see it now.  Dean already told Sam he's better at him then everything and he was proud.

So I don't see how Dean doesn't already feel he did good with Sam and that Sam can take care of himself.  Don't even get me started on that ridiculous Chief story.

Dean has done nothing plot worthy all season.  He was given the non-active role in closing hell.  He knelt by a hole.   He's had to grovel and beg forgiveness for being upset Cas lied and got his mom killed.  He's the butt of just about every joke.  He doesn't' get to save people anymore.  He doesn't even have his instincts.  Sam was the one who felt something wasn't right in Atomic Monsters, and and ep 5.   Sam was the one who upped the stakes last episode.

No, the writing isn't good for either brother right now but at least the digs aren't aimed his character and his character isn't told how dumb he is every ep. Even Chuck made sure to mention that Sam's affinity for spell work was all him.  At least the writers are making an effort with Sam, even if its minimal.  He had 3 different storylines.  The God one, Eileen and Rowena.

He even gets to name and talk about his traumas.  Deans- well he went to purgatory and it effected him, so he had to go back because he went to purgatory and it effected him.  When asked if Dean traumas are going to be addressed, Dabb said no. 

Dean couldn't even get a kid named after him despite Garth not even meeting Cas, and having the closest relationship with Dean.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

To be fair Sam fans are probably just as frustrated with the current writing of his character. Sam is still the one who can't do anything without Dean after all these years. He's the one who gets knocked out or kidnapped any time he is four feet away from his brother. He is the one who is always wrong so Dean can be right. There is never any balance. The writers don't get that neither one of them needs to be right or that they could both be wrong sometimes. Plus he has no personality, he is just the dame in distress waiting for the hero to come save him. 

I hope they give Sam a hero moment for no other reason then that Dean deserves to see that he did well with Sam and that Sam may be able to take care of himself.

And in spite of all of this Sam doesn't say "you're better than me in everything". The few times that he did say that he was the one to get the BDH moment. Swan Song: "I'm the least of all of you", Trial and Error: "you're the best hunter that I know", etc. 

[Harleycat]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

And in spite of all of this Sam doesn't say "you're better than me in everything". The few times that he did say that he was the one to get the BDH moment. Swan Song: "I'm the least of all of you", Trial and Error: "you're the best hunter that I know", etc. 

Sam is a self center brat for the most part. Again, just bad writing of the character. I don't know why they put all the brotherly love on Dean and all of the I'm just doing me (but doing a very bad job of it and really need my brother for everything) on Sam. 

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Sam is a self center brat for the most part. Again, just bad writing of the character. I don't know why they put all the brotherly love on Dean and all of the I'm just doing me (but doing a very bad job of it and really need my brother for everything) on Sam. 

I said it before a while ago and I'll repeat it again:  If they write somebody consistently for x number of years as being one way (self centered or inept or overly proud or even consistently right) then, to me, that means that's who the character is.  Just because he was different 13 or 14 years ago doesn't mean he's still that way, and it's not writing him OOC if that's been his character for the past 10 years.  I'd say it's more OOC to keep expecting him (or inconsistently writing him) as he was in his 20s rather than who he is now.  And that goes for both Sam and Dean, just like they keep digging up the horndog/messy eater or the puppy eyes and empathy for everyone tropes that they both outgrew years ago.  They're both hardened hunters who've been to hell.  They're no longer 20-somethings who still believe in, well, anything.  

After all, isn't character growth what we were all complaining that we wanted?  And who says the growth has to be good?  Maybe they've turned into people we don't really like.  That's growth, too.  

ETA: I was remembering the line (well, not the exact line) where Dean says something is wrong and Sam counters with, "no, I'm just saying something you don't like.  That doesn't mean it's wrong."  (Sorry for the paraphrase, but I can't remember exactly what/when).

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by ahrtee

[Harleycat]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean has done nothing plot worthy all season.  He was given the non-active role in closing hell.  He knelt by a hole.   He's had to grovel and beg forgiveness for being upset Cas lied and got his mom killed.  He's the butt of just about every joke.  He doesn't' get to save people anymore.  He doesn't even have his instincts.  Sam was the one who felt something wasn't right in Atomic Monsters, and and ep 5.   Sam was the one who upped the stakes last episode.

No, the writing isn't good for either brother right now but at least the digs aren't aimed his character and his character isn't told how dumb he is every ep. Even Chuck made sure to mention that Sam's affinity for spell work was all him.  At least the writers are making an effort with Sam, even if its minimal.  He had 3 different storylines.  The God one, Eileen and Rowena.

He even gets to name and talk about his traumas.  Deans- well he went to purgatory and it effected him, so he had to go back because he went to purgatory and it effected him.  When asked if Dean traumas are going to be addressed, Dabb said no. 

Dean couldn't even get a kid named after him despite Garth not even meeting Cas, and having the closest relationship with Dean.

 

He hauled ass out of purgatory to save poor helpless Sammy, that's something. And while I found the apology weird and unnecessary, Jensen did it well and I always like to see Jensen get a chance to act. T

They don't make fun of Sam because there is nothing to poke fun at, the guy has no character traits other then that he is very loyal to Dean and feels guilty sometime for being a burden to Dean. If I watched the show for him I would be extremely frustrated that Sam has turned into such a dud.

And Dean's trauma is probably too much to address on a teen show that plays at 8 o'clock. It would be different if it was a 10 o'clock cable network show, but it isn't. It is a show that 14 year olds should be able to watch without adult supervision.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Harleycat said:

And Dean's trauma is probably too much to address on a teen show that plays at 8 o'clock. It would be different if it was a 10 o'clock cable network show, but it isn't. It is a show that 14 year olds should be able to watch without adult supervision.

I'd say if that was truly what they were aiming for, they shouldn't have had it happen in the first place.  The viewers were adult enough to see it, why shouldn't they be able to see the aftermath and repercussions as well?    

But yes, it's a much different show than it was in its first 8 or 9 years anyway.  

[ILoveReading]

 

14 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

And Dean's trauma is probably too much to address on a teen show that plays at 8 o'clock. It would be different if it was a 10 o'clock cable network show, but it isn't. It is a show that 14 year olds should be able to watch without adult supervision.

And yet they have no problem showing multiple people tying up and beating up Sam, and showing the aftermath. 

IMO, the real reason has nothing to do with what time the show is on or how old the audience is, and everything to do with the writers either outright disliking the character or not seeing  him as significant. 

[DeeDee79]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But yes, it's a much different show than it was in its first 8 or 9 years anyway. 

This is a major understatement. 😔

[Harleycat]

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

And yet they have no problem showing multiple people tying up and beating up Sam, and showing the aftermath. 

It is gross and unnecessary but isn't the same thing as spending a year having terrible things done to you and doing terrible things in purgatory or being tortured in hell and then becoming the torturer for years in hell. Personally I think that they just don't know what else to do with Sam and have very little confidence in Jared's ability to actually act, so just have him pose a lot.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

ETA: I was remembering the line (well, not the exact line) where Dean says something is wrong and Sam counters with, "no, I'm just saying something you don't like.  That doesn't mean it's wrong."  (Sorry for the paraphrase, but I can't remember exactly what/when).

Except that Sam was wrong if I remember correctly - because of course he was - and the writers made sure to show us later that he was wrong.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

After all, isn't character growth what we were all complaining that we wanted?  And who says the growth has to be good?  Maybe they've turned into people we don't really like.  That's growth, too.  

Sam did have character growth - between seasons 5 and 7 - and I was perfectly fine with it. I thought it's evolution and execution was done well.

My problem was that the writers then decided to regress Sam and start all over again to do it "better" except that it wasn't better, and they didn't really execute it in the end anyway. So my problem isn't that I wanted character growth. I had that. My problem was that the characters were regressed and then pretty much left that way, because it was (supposedly) good for "drama."

1 hour ago, Harleycat said:

They don't make fun of Sam because there is nothing to poke fun at, the guy has no character traits other then that he is very loyal to Dean and feels guilty sometime for being a burden to Dean. If I watched the show for him I would be extremely frustrated that Sam has turned into such a dud.

Yes, thank you. This is why I'm frustrated. Sam didn't used to be this way. I think though that most of the writers who appreciated Sam as a character (for who he was, not what they want to make him that doesn't fit) are all gone now, and the rest don't really care.

10 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Personally I think that they just don't know what else to do with Sam and have very little confidence in Jared's ability to actually act, so just have him pose a lot.

Which in my opinion is too bad - though I know that you disagree here - because Jared has had some really good moments during the series (in my opinion) especially when his character is actually given something meaningful to do.

Though I also happen to like Jared's comedic style (again I know you disagree), and I especially miss that. That and this:

Quote

I don't know why they put all the brotherly love on Dean and all of the I'm just doing me (but doing a very bad job of it and really need my brother for everything) on Sam. 

This was something else that used to be much more equal between Sam and Dean. And it isn't like the writers think this is a good thing, because after they have Sam not be the loving, devoted brother, then they punish his character for it... well also for doing the brotherly love, too, because apparently Sam does that wrong, as well. (Season 10 for example.) because apparently if Dean doesn't want to be saved, then he's right about that. Unlike if Sam supposedly doesn't want to be saved (season 9), in which case Dean's still right.

Damn I wish Gamble would come back. Or just about anybody that's not the current crew actually.