“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

AwesomO4000 · March 6, 2019

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The Girl Next Door could only have been written with trashing Dean in mind. A pretty popular sci-fi actor, named after a popular Sci-Fi character, given a sympathetic motive and unsympathetic victims. They made Dean kill Amy right in front of her son, and had her save Sam's life and then made Dean lie to Sam. Then to make matters worse they made Jensen direct and ep that was specifically written to throw his character under a bus.

If that was the case, in my opinion, Dean wouldn't have been shown as right in the end, which he not only was, he was justified in calling Sam a bitch for being angry about Dean lying to him. Dean's lying to Sam was given a perfectly reasonable explanation - that Dean would have told Sam the truth eventually once he was sure that Sam was mentally stable - and this was an explanation that Sam not only accepted, but then told Dean he understood why Dean felt badly about having to lie.

I personally don't see how this was a storyline written to trash Dean when in the end not only did Sam agree that it was the right thing to do... Sam then did the same thing siting the fact that he was doing what Dean had done. because it was the right thing to do. Now either the writers thought that was the case and Sam's actions supported it.... or Sam was lying and killed Emma out of revenge... neither scenario of which makes Dean look like the bad guy, and the last one makes Sam look like the jerk, not Dean.

So as I said, it's often a matter of perspective.

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Getting Sam's soul back, was treated as Dean doing something wrong and was being selfish.

I completely disagree. Sure soulless Sam didn't want the soul back, but soulless Sam was a lying, sociopathic murderer. And how was Dean being mean to Sam by saving his soul - the thing that actually makes Sam Sam - from eternal torment? This argument makes no sense to me at all. Not only was Dean the only one who wanted to save Sam, the narrative made sure to have Sam specifically thank Sam for his life back. If anyone was shown as wrong, in my opinion, it was Bobby and Castiel - who ended up having his own selfish reasons for not wanting Sam resouled.

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The Dick Roman storyline was mostly passed onto Bobby once he made his reappearance.

Again I completely disagree. Dean told Dick Roman that he would kill him, and then he followed through. There was even a peripheral character associated only with Dean - Frank - who was there solely to support that arc.

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Carver did a number on Dean too, whereas he made Dean trick Sam into getting possesses

Which was completely whitewashed, in my opinion, when Gadreel ended up being a good guy and needed for helping to save the world Sam's possession was downgraded into no big deal that was partially Sam's fault, because he should have known about Gadreel. Even Kevin's death was turned into almost a good thing.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Most of Sam's behavoir under carver was whitewashed. Sam ended up getting his way on everything.

In my opinion, Sam was shown as wrong about everything. Even Gadreel.

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yep, me too. And I don't think one throwaway line from Chuck (who has pretty much been shown to be a dick anyway) about Amara being Sam's fault negates the repeated contradictions during the season, not to mention him Samsplaining to Dean about the 'saving people' part of the family business.

Sam's "Samsplaining" was also only one "throwaway line" so why is that one so significant while Chuck's isn't? Especially since season 10 spent most of the season building up to Sam's Decision of Dooooom, just so we'd know that when it all went wrong, it was Sam's fault for not listening to Dean. I don't remember one contradiction during the season that Amara wasn't Sam's fault. Sam's Samsplaining suggested that the situation leading up to what happened was both of their faults, but his prayer to God (that ended up being Lucifer), specifically said that the specific situation was his fault. And nothing that I remember during the season contradicted this, including Chuck telling us so, just in case there was any doubt at all.

ILoveReading · March 6, 2019

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

ean wouldn't have been shown as right in the end, which he not only was, he was justified in calling Sam a bitch for being angry about Dean lying to him. Dean's lying to Sam was given a perfectly reasonable explanation - that Dean would have told Sam the truth eventually once he was sure that Sam was mentally stable - and this was an explanation that Sam not only accepted, but then told Dean he understood why Dean felt badly about having to lie.

Despite Sam saying Dean was right Sam didn't hesitate to throw Amy in Dean's face twice, during the Benny situation, and the Emma situation.

If that episode was meant to show Dean as right they wouldn't have pushed the poor poor pitiful Amy, I'm just trying to save my son so hard.

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And how was Dean being mean to Sam by saving his soul - the thing that actually makes Sam Sam - from eternal torment? This argument makes no sense to me at all.

Yet that is exactly what the show did. They kept harping on how much Sam would suffer if he had soul back. Multiple people warned Deannot to do it and that it was a bad idea because. It's right there in the text and on screen. . The show said Dean did it because he wanted Sam back. I still remember the article on Winchester family business that branded Dean a rapist for doing it. So I'm not the only one who saw the show trying to make Dean the bad guy in this story.

As for Souless Sam, the show never really treated him like an remorseless killer. He was basically a puppy in one epiosde. Not to mention they acted like he should have atonomy.

The show even blamed Dean in Bored Again Identity. "You know this would happen."

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean told Dick Roman that he would kill him, and then he followed through. There was even a peripheral character associated only with Dean - Frank - who was there solely to support that arc.

I don't think Dick was solely a Dean character. I thought s7 was mostly Bobby centric. He seemed like the character most tied to Dick Roman. Dean might have gotten the kill, but his wanting revenge was dropped. Dean also promised to kill grandpa but in the end he didn't get too. So its not like all Dean's pronouncements came true.

I personally think Sera's plans were the same as Dabb. She was setting Sam up to be a leader and organize a group of hunters to take out the remaining leviathans and rescue Dean. Carver just had other plans. So I dont' see her sending Dean to purgatory was being done with the purpose of making him "badass"

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Which was completely whitewashed, in my opinion, when Gadreel ended up being a good guy and needed for helping to save the world Sam's possession was downgraded into no big deal that was partially Sam's fault, because he should have known about Gadreel. Even Kevin's death was turned into almost a good thing.

Again, I disagree becasue Dean's behavior here was not whitewashed. Just because there was no world ending consequences doesn't mean he didn't face them. Kevin died because of this, it lead Dean to taking on the mark, and he got disowned. Just because Gadreel didn't turn out to be evil, doesn't mean what Dean did was swept under the carpet. He paid a big price.

Edited March 7, 2019 by ILoveReading

DeeDee79 · March 7, 2019

51 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Despite Sam saying Dean was right Sam didn't hesitate to throw Amy in Dean's face twice, during the Benny situation, and the Emma situation.

If that episode was meant to show Dean as right they wouldn't have pushed the poor poor pitiful Amy, I'm just trying to save my son so hard.

Yet that is exactly what the show did. They kept harping on how much Sam would suffer if he had soul back. Multiple people warned Deannot to do it and that it was a bad idea because. It's right there in the text and on screen. . The show said Dean did it because he wanted Sam back. I still remember the article on Winchester family business that branded Dean a rapist for doing it. So I'm not the only one who saw the show trying to make Dean the bad guy in this story.

As for Souless Sam, the show never really treated him like an remorseless killer. He was basically a puppy in one epiosde. Not to mention they acted like he should have atonomy.

The show even blamed Dean in Bored Again Identity. "You know this would happen."

I don't think Dick was solely a Dean character. I thought s7 was mostly Bobby centric. He seemed like the character most tied to Dick Roman. Dean might have gotten the kill, but his wanting revenge was dropped. Dean also promised to kill grandpa but in the end he didn't get too. So its not like all Dean's pronouncements came true.

I personally think Sera's plans were the same as Dabb. She was setting Sam up to be a leader and organize a group of hunters to take out the remaining leviathans and rescue Dean. Carver just had other plans. So I dont' see her sending Dean to purgatory was being done with the purpose of making him "badass"

Again, I disagree becasue Dean's behavior here was not whitewashed. Just because there was no world ending consequences doesn't mean he didn't face them. Kevin died because of this, it lead Dean to taking on the mark, and he got disowned. Just because Gadreel didn't turn out to be evil, doesn't mean what Dean did was swept under the carpet. He paid a big price.

Agreed on all counts.

AwesomO4000 · March 7, 2019

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

None of those were storyarcs for Dean IMO. He got a cool defeat with Eve but that doesn`t mean it had previously been a storyarc for him.

Gamble`s "arcs" for Dean were "domesticated and rusty with Lisa, emo" in Season 6 and "feels sad and emo about various things in Season 7, on and off again heavy drinking". Neither of which appealed to me on any level.

If "arc" is too strong a word, these were at least plot points for Dean, in my opinion. And Dean wanting revenge on and killing Dick Roman was as much a plot point in season 7 as his "feeling sad" was.

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Sam got "soullessness and super-badass" during Season 6 and "Lucifer hallucinations"in Season 7.

One of which wasn't really Sam and the other of which was "emo" and not related to the main story arc which was the Leviathans.

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To me Gamble during her tenure is best summarized with "hooker is so blown away by sex with Soulless!Sam, she forgets to ask for money" vs. "demonically-possessed Lisa does the demon thing of tellng the truth that hurts and she makes a point to tell Dean he was a third-rate lay". This tell me everything about her and how she saw the respective characters and it came through to a T in her writing and showrunning.

That wasn't a Sera episode to begin with (it was a Ben Edlund episode), and I had an entirely different interpretation of the scene anyway. Don't call girls generally get paid up front or through a service? Especially high priced ones - which she obviously was. In my opinion, what Sam gave her was her personal tip. There was no way that was enough for full price, even with my very limited knowledge of such situations. The point of the scene in my opinion wasn't "oh, look how sexy Sam is" but "Geesh, this Sam is creepy as hell. How is that call girl not running out the door feeling lucky she didn't get strangled?"

In my opinion, the whole point was the scene made Sam look completely cold. Contrast that with how Dean talks about working girls - and how he would treat the one later in season 10 (I believe it was) - and that was the point of that scene, in my opinion. Sure, exercising Sam looked good, and the first impression was "ooh, nice" ...and then the scene unfolded, and the overall feeling was "nope, nope, nope. Back away cautiously but quickly and NOPE." Sorry, but for me, once Soulless Sam started talking and acting creepy like that, "sexy" is not the word I would use... at all. More like concerning and disturbing. And "ugh." I felt like I should take a shower... and not a cold one, but a super-scrubbing one, because "ugh." And I'm pretty sure that that was the point.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Despite Sam saying Dean was right Sam didn't hesitate to throw Amy in Dean's face twice, during the Benny situation, and the Emma situation.

If that episode was meant to show Dean as right they wouldn't have pushed the poor poor pitiful Amy, I'm just trying to save my son so hard.

But unless the show was agreeing with Dean, bringing up Amy both times only would serve to make Sam look badly - not Dean. In the first case, because then Sam would be killing Emma for petty revenge (which I don't believe), and in the second case, I think it was to make Sam look badly, because Carver did that a lot in season 8 under the guise of supposedly making Sam look "good" (nope). If Amy was being shown as poor, poor pitiful Amy, I contend that Benny was even more so. We got an entire episode about his innocent relative and all that Benny lost because of Sam, and then multiple episodes about how loyal and good Benny was. And then Benny was good, so Sam was wrong, and his Amy comparison was faulty and entirely disproved (since Amy was killing people, Benny wasn't), and so once again, it was Sam who would look bad - not Dean.

The first time it was because the show agreed with Dean,*** and the second time because Benny was super good and entirely innocent (which the show bent over backwards to show us), so Sam's comparison was wrong to begin with.

*** Though "Slice Girls" was written by Ross-Leming and Buckner, so I suppose Sam, the petty revenge killer, was possible in their minds. I don't think, however that would make Sam look better than Dean in that situation, because at least Dean thought he was doing the right thing when he killed Amy, whereas Sam would have killed Emma for revenge. So again not seeing how that wouldn't reflect worse on Sam than Dean in that situation.

Because it can't be both. Either the show agreed that Dean was right to kill Amy and Sam was following Dean's lead by killing Emma, or the show was saying Dean was wrong to kill Amy, but Sam was even worse, because he then killed Emma in revenge. In neither situation is Dean the "bad guy," because in the second case, if Dean is wrong, than the show is saying that Sam is even worse.

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Yet that is exactly what the show did. 1) They kept harping on how much Sam would suffer if he had soul back. Multiple people warned Deannot to do it and that it was a bad idea because. It's right there in the text and on screen. . 2) The show said Dean did it because he wanted Sam back. I still remember the article on Winchester family business that branded Dean a rapist for doing it. So I'm not the only one who saw the show trying to make Dean the bad guy in this story.

3) As for Souless Sam, the show never really treated him like an remorseless killer. He was basically a puppy in one epiosde. Not to mention they acted like he should have atonomy.

For the TL:DR, please see the bolded parts...

1) The people who "warned" Dean were later shown as hypocrites. For all Bobby's hand-wringing about Soulless Sam, he sure changed his tune quickly enough when it was him who almost got killed by Soulless Sam, didn't he? He even held it against soulled Sam afterwards. And Castiel had his own reasons for not wanting Sam's soul back... and they had little to do with wanting what was best for Sam. That was clear enough when he broke Sam's wall later on. So, sorry, but neither of those who advocated against getting Sam's soul back had a leg to stand on in the end, in my opinion. Dean was the only one who had moral ground to stand on.

2) Dean also said he wanted to save Sam from being tortured in the cage. I'm pretty sure that if Sam was in heaven, Dean wouldn't have pulled him out, but would have let him stay. What I found more questionable and disturbing was Bobby suggesting that they should leave Sam to be tortured for all eternity. I mean WTF? Was Bobby saying "ehn this thing looks like Sam but doesn't really have the emotions or heart that Sam has, and basically isn't Sam, but he can hunt, so... I guess he'll do as a replacement for Sam." Really? And I'm supposed to agree with that? I don't think so. I happen to like Sam, so that would be a big "NO."

No offense to the people on The Winchester Family Business, but that article sounds to me like they only understand Sam's character on a superficial level and certainly don't understand the complexities of the show when it comes to soul and who a person is. If they thought Soulless Sam actually was as worthy as Sam and deserved autonomy, to me, they don't know Sam at all. Real Sam would rather have had Soulless Sam dead than use his body to harm more innocent people, and in the end, shouldn't real Sam have a say as to what would happen with his body?

3) Even before Sam got his soul back and we got the Soulless Sam flashbacks, we had SS gleefully watching Dean get turned by a vampire, shrugging his shoulders at Dean being abducted (he was more interested in solving the case than trying to find Dean), and oh yeah, trying to murder Bobby. We knew from "You Can't Handle the Truth" that he was an accomplished liar and manipulator, and that he was good at faking emotions to get what he wanted and elicit sympathy.

In my opinion, there was no illusion that Soulless Sam was dangerous and, yes, remorseless. If he was a "puppy" it was more like a pitbull - one that would turn on you if it meant he could then eat a steak. For me, the show didn't leave any illusions as to who Soulless Sam was or what he was capable of. Even "Clap Your Hands..." showed that Sam was basically faking it when it came to being remotely nice, and sure that was amusing for a moment, but he wouldn't have even been phased if Dean never came back from the fairy realm... meaning that it was all surface paint and illusion.

Once we got the Soulless Sam flashbacks, complete with Sam almost killing a cop because the cop was an inconvenience, using an innocent person as bait and having no remorse when he was killed (and that was one case out of who knows how many,) and killing a woman simply because he could also kill a monster at the same time, in my opinion, there was no doubt that the show was showing us that Soulless Sam was no better than the monsters he hunted for fun. And to boot, Soulless Sam decided that he didn't want to change - something at least some of the monsters on the show want to do even if they fail at it.

For me personally, I don't see how this is not the portrait of a remorseless killer, and I don't think the show pulled any punches in showing this... not even in the amusing fairy episode.

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I don't think Dick was solely a Dean character.

I was talking about Frank.

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I personally think Sera's plans were the same as Dabb. She was setting Sam up to be a leader and organize a group of hunters to take out the remaining leviathans and rescue Dean. Carver just had other plans. So I dont' see her sending Dean to purgatory was being done with the purpose of making him "badass"

And what would have been wrong with that? It actually would have made sense character-wise, in my opinion, rather than turning Sam's character into an almost unrecognizeable jerk who needed to "learn" the worthiness of hunting (again) and his brother (again).

And for Dean to survive by himself - since Castiel took off - in a purgatory full of monsters, he would have had to be a badass... and that likely would have - and should have - given Dean the confidence to know that he was capable and able to survive on his own. Just because Carver bungled that particular opportunity - including giving Dean another "brother figure" to lean on*** - doesn't mean that Gamble wouldn't have followed through with something more epic and interesting than what Carver gave us. In my opinion.

It would have been awesome and great for both characters with no trashing of Sam and epic growth and awesomeness for Dean.

*** And yes, I think Benny was a mistake. It took what I think should have been an epic Dean survives on his own by his own wits and skill and sees that he can do things by himself and more importantly for himself, and turned it into well, maybe Dean just needs a better brother to lean on and care about, because heaven forbid he not have someone else to look after / worry about / etc. rather than focus on his own needs and worthiness. Bah.

Instead it was all about Carver making his pet Benny the bestest brother ever, because we can't have Sam care about Dean or try to save Dean like he did every other time in the past since season 1 on, and we can't have Dean feel loved or worthy or anything like that... nope. That wouldn't be drama. Such crap, in my opinion.

AwesomO4000 · March 7, 2019

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Again, I disagree becasue Dean's behavior here was not whitewashed. Just because there was no world ending consequences doesn't mean he didn't face them. Kevin died because of this, it lead Dean to taking on the mark, and he got disowned. Just because Gadreel didn't turn out to be evil, doesn't mean what Dean did was swept under the carpet. He paid a big price.

I disagree. (I know, I know... Big surprise.) Again there is bold for the TL:DR among you. Also for anyone else, please feel free to skip this if it doesn't interest you.

It wasn't just that there were no world ending consequences... in the end there were almost no consequences at all, in my opinion. (Bear with me as this is going to take time to break down - there were a LOT of consequences whitewashed here ...in various sometimes subtle ways.)

First Sam yelled at Dean and hurt his feelings. Granted it was pretty bad - okay, really, really bad - but the show then went out of its way to show that everything Sam said was wrong. I don't care what "hard truths" the writers might have said that they were having Sam say. In my opinion, that was a misdirection, because that's not what they actually showed on screen. What the writers showed was that Sam would - and did - do exactly the same thing to Dean, just as Dean had said, meaning all of Sam's anger and protestations were just Sam not accepting the truth that what Dean did was what he (Sam) would also do. By making Sam a hypocrite and a liar (even admitting "I lied"), they downplayed everything Dean did by saying that Sam would do it, too, so what was Sam even being angry with Dean for? I, personally, don't see how that's not whitewashing what Dean did, at least not without saying that Sam was just as bad as Dean - or worse, because at least Dean was honest about it.

If the writers had wanted what Dean did to stand as "wrong" and not whitewashed, then, in my opinion, Sam would have stuck to his convictions and not tried to bring Dean back against his wishes. Period. It would have been that simple. Dean was going to come back anyway as a demon, so the only reason to have Sam call Crowley to "fix" it and admit as such when he said "I lied" was to have Sam do the same and learn that lesson, thereby excusing Dean doing it in the first place or at the very least, saying that it was understandable. I really don't see any other reason for having Sam do that.

The lying - the thing that I personally thought was the bad part - was completely downplayed by not being mentioned again. That way the writers wouldn't have to find a way to excuse it... just ignore it... or change the circumstances of the effects of the lying - i.e. the toll the possession had taken on Sam - which the writers actually did do later (see three paragraphs below).

Yes, Kevin died... and then a few episodes later the writers made Kevin's dying a good thing, because if Kevin hadn't been a ghost, he wouldn't have found out that his mother was alive so she could be saved from Crowley's prison. And then ghost Kevin got to go home with his saved mother. So that whitewashed Kevin's death, in my opinion. And as a parting hit against Sam, the writers had Kevin tell Sam he should just "get over it," because family was what was important ...and then had Sam lie that he would so he'd look like a jerk and Dean would look sympathetic. The writers were saying "see, even Kevin forgives Dean and understands the importance of family... why can't mean, old Sam do the same?" It couldn't have been more obvious that the writers were siding with Dean here, in my opinion. Their mouthpiece Kevin made that fairly plain to me.

As for Dean taking on the mark, he used that to kill Abbadon (good thing) and he turned into a demon for a little while... he caused hardly any damage as a demon and very little with the mark. Compared to other prices Dean and Sam have paid for mistakes they'd made - including each of them going to hell for decades - I would say that Dean didn't pay much of a price for Gadreel and taking on the mark. Comparatively, I don't think it was a big price at all.

And the effects of Gadreel on Sam were swept under the carpet, too, in my opinion. The writers changed the effects of Gadreel on Sam just to make that so. Instead of Sam not knowing that he was possessed, losing time, and basically having real anxiety and upset because of the experience, this was changed after the fact. They had Sam say that he felt like he was sharing his body - when before he hadn't known anything - but that it (Gadreel) didn't feel evil. And had Sam say that Sam had been wrong for not knowing Gadreel was evil, because Gadreel killed Kevin... so basically not only was Kevin's death whitewashed by what happened above, but some of the blame for it was shifted to Sam for not knowing Gadreel was evil... except when Gadreel wasn't... which happened when he became "misunderstood" and a "friend" instead. And the above isn't my interpretation, it was all there in text and canon in "King of the Damned." Somehow that conversation made Gadreel both evil and not at the same time. It was bizarre and in my opinion, pretty messed up in how it seemed to victim-blame Sam.

Now granted some of this whitewashing was, in my opinion, so that one of Carver's pet characters - in this case Gadreel - could be redeemed and his previous bad actions lessened so he could be more of a hero whose previous bad actions were more because he was "misunderstood" than evil, but the end result also happened to whitewash what Dean did also... especially everything surrounding Kevin.

And that whitewashing might not have seemed so glaring if next season we didn't get Charlie's horrific death... which was not in any way softened or given any bright side whatsoever. No happy Charlie ghost who helped save people and who would eventually get sent to heaven by Chuck... just ugly, gruesome death.

And to top everything off, Dean being "disowned" and all of Sam's anger lead to Sam learning a very special lesson about how wrong he was to condemn what Dean did and how wrong he was to be angry, because now that Dean died and became a demon, Sam was sorry and realized that Dean had been right about Sam wanting to do the same to save him (Dean). It lead to Sam being more attentive and wanting to save Dean more than almost ever, even risking the world to save him. So even that consequence - Sam being angry and disowning Dean - somehow got turned into a good thing for Dean in the end, because it made Sam more devoted than almost ever. And is it just me or is that really messed up?

That's why for me, Dean's actions were whitewashed. Not because there weren't earth-shattering consequences, but because there were almost none at all, and those that did occur were made even less and sometimes even given a positive spin and result.

tessathereaper · March 7, 2019

What's with all the Bold Type? 😁😊

Edited March 7, 2019 by tessathereaper

AwesomO4000 · March 7, 2019

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

What's with all the Bold Type? 😁😊

I'm terrible at being brief. When I try, apparently I don't always make sense or it sounds like I'm saying something other than what I'm meaning to say... but since I realize all my babbling is too long for some, I bold so those who potentially might want to take a look rather than skip it entirely (also a legitimate option) but don't want to have to wade through my entire post can get the gist more quickly. That way they can either read more if they want or think "I don't agree with this crap... good thing I didn't waste my time and only read the bolded stuff" ...both of which are legitimate opinions. : )

So I guess it's because I may be long-winded and annoying, but I try to be considerate about it? ; )

Edited March 7, 2019 by AwesomO4000
Apparently I also never met an edit button I didn't like either

gonzosgirrl · March 7, 2019

Moved from Spoilers:

46 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the bit about being so incensed with God for being a writer and the little failed drafts - something that he would have pieced together by info gotten from Dean`s head - had potential. In general, I do think Michael could have potential but not as underwritten as he is. I loved his snarky little ass in episode 10.

But in general I agree, if he is not connected to Dean, I really don`t give a crap. They could have done so much with Michael in his head. Instead nothing happened. Sam got to make some emotional speeches to Dean and than to John so ironically his character benefited more from it than Dean did.

I agree. Apart from Ep 10, the best Michael scenes were given to another actor. There is (or was) so much potential for the Dean/Michael relationship, but they failed to produce in the writing department.

Count me in as one who does not care one bit about the character if he's not in, or at least interacting with Dean. Maybe the writers could take inspiration from the myriad Sam/Lucifer scenes they've written over (and over and over) the years.

AwesomO4000 · March 7, 2019

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe the writers could take inspiration from the myriad Sam/Lucifer scenes they've written over (and over and over) the years.

I don't know. Lucifer is different. He likes to hear the sound of his own voice, and he wants people to "like" and agree with him. I don't think I'd want Michael to go down the same path or be written in the same way. I don't think Michael much cares if people agree with or like him as long as they do what he says ...so I'm kind of okay with him not explaining his motivations very much.

Aeryn13 · March 7, 2019

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I don't know. Lucifer is different. He likes to hear the sound of his own voice, and he wants people to "like" and agree with him. I don't think I'd want Michael to go down the same path or be written in the same way. I don't think Michael much cares if people agree with or like him as long as they do what he says ...so I'm kind of okay with him not explaining his motivations very much.

That doesn`t mean there couldn`t have been more of a - or one at all - relationship with Dean that was explored. Antagonistic is a relationship as well. They shared a headspace, literally, but basically crickets.

I thought the scene between Michael and Dean back in Season 5 in Song Remains the Same was mesmerizing. Predictably, we only got one ever before Michael was all "eh, who are you again? you don`t matter" in 5.22. Sam and Lucifer had many, many, many confrontations in comparism.

If things pan out as expected, I reckon I will set up shop in this thread again very soon.

gonzosgirrl · March 7, 2019

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know. Lucifer is different. He likes to hear the sound of his own voice, and he wants people to "like" and agree with him. I don't think I'd want Michael to go down the same path or be written in the same way. I don't think Michael much cares if people agree with or like him as long as they do what he says ...so I'm kind of okay with him not explaining his motivations very much.

I don't need him to explain anything. That certainly isn't what Luci was doing with Sam for the most part. We got half a season of Sam and Hallucifer in which he did a lot more than pound his fists on a door. I don't even need Jensen to be playing him - I just want Dean to have the chance to have his story play out for even half the time the Samifer story has.

ILoveReading · March 8, 2019

I called this the minute Prophet and Loss ended.

This is an legitimate question because I'm honestly curious, those that defended the end of prophet and loss have you changed your minds?

Aeryn13 · March 8, 2019

Well, Dean fans really need to wipe the spit of their faces after this last episode. They would NEVER have done this with a Sam storyline.

Myrelle · March 8, 2019

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, Dean fans really need to wipe the spit of their faces after this last episode. They would NEVER have done this with a Sam storyline.

Right?

But with the way Dabb wrote Sam in the premiere, it's not really surprising how the NougatBaby was written in this one. But what is surprising and very disappointing is that it was Yockey who wrote this one.

Guess he couldn't resist the kool-ade, too-just like the rest of them.

DeeDee79 · March 8, 2019

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Guess he couldn't resist the kool-ade, too-just like the rest of them.

Though after hearing about how some of the Michael!Dean scenes were cut out this season I have to wonder if maybe his script was just heavily edited by Dabb. It's all I have to cling to at this point along with the hope that Jensen will take advantage of his immense fanbase, likeability and talent and run far, far away from this show before Dean Winchester is ruined forever. Rewatch of earlier seasons with better writing is my go-to happy place.

Myrelle · March 8, 2019

Honestly?...I'm clinging to the thought that Jensen has been offered and accepted the Batman role and Dean is only going to be shown nominally in S15 of Dabbernatural.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Myrelle

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2019

Dean fans: I hate how Kripke wrote Dean out of his own storyline in S5. He sucks.

Dabb: Hold my beer.

Even *I* didn't think he'd screw us over in a mid-season episode about a nougat baby.

ILoveReading · March 8, 2019

Yet another iconic Dean moment cheapened too. The scene of Jack spreading his wings was the exact same as Dean walking into that Church.

Myrelle · March 8, 2019

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean fans: I hate how Kripke wrote Dean out of his own storyline in S5. He sucks.

Dabb: Hold my beer.

Even *I* didn't think he'd screw us over in a mid-season episode about a nougat baby.

I did.

I know it's sad to hear and even sadder for me to say it, but I fully expected everything that happened in this one to happen.

Dabb has no interest whatsoever in writing for Jensen, IMO.

He will write for anyone else before him. Anyone.

The Michael storyline was contract-signing bait for him and nothing more. Again IMO.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Myrelle

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2019

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They would NEVER have done this with a Sam storyline.

I disagree, because they have done it... The trial storyline and especially Gadreel. And that was the last real supernatural storyline*** that Sam had - 5 seasons ago.

Dean has had the ones since: the mark of Cain with Demon Dean, Amara, and now - short as it was - Michael. There is a legitimate argument that some of those weren't the best storylines, but neither was the trial storyline or Gadreel (well, the Gadreel storyline was a serviceable storyline... for Gadreel. In my opinion, it was crap for Sam.) Still that's 3 seasons' time in the last 5 that Dean has had a supernaturally based storyline. Better than none (or a half if you want to be really generous and count Sam's 10 episode Lucifer dream arc.)

Since Carver's reign, Sam's basic role has been the same one he's had that also happened in this episode. Not listen to Dean, screw up, people die. I said a couple of months ago that they wouldn't be able to resist writing that kind of thing for Sam. And apparently they couldn't. And now, considering everyone is dead, that's also the end of Sam's crappy enough already "leader" storyline. I knew he'd be the cause of them all being killed. Sam the perpetually wrong screw up it is I guess. (Have I mentioned lately that I miss Gamble?) Sure, Sam was right about Jack... but of course now that may also go south, too. I wonder if Sam will get an "I told you so" for that one too when Jack goes bad.

So while I sympathize with what Dean fans are going through... it's not so great over here being a Sam fan either.

*** Unless you want to count his Lucifer nightmares, but I'm not sure that one counts, since Sam wasn't really supernaturally changed in any kind of way or got any power from it or anything. He wasn't even the only one getting Lucifer nightmares.

Cambion · March 8, 2019

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And now, considering everyone is dead, that's also the end of Sam's crappy enough already "leader" storyline. I knew he'd be the cause of them all being killed. Sam the perpetually wrong screw up it is I guess. (Have I mentioned lately that I miss Gamble?) Sure, Sam was right about Jack... but of course now that may also go south, too. I wonder if Sam will get an "I told you so" for that one too when Jack goes bad.

So while I sympathize with what Dean fans are going through... it's not so great over here being a Sam fan either.

*** Unless you want to count his Lucifer nightmares, but I'm not sure that one counts, since Sam wasn't really supernaturally changed in any kind of way or got any power from it or anything. He wasn't even the only one getting Lucifer nightmares.

1

I'm not sure I would agree that Sam got them all killed. For me, the problem with the "leader" storyline was that it seemed to have been thrust upon him and they only seemed to show him screwing up, which couldn't have been all of it or otherwise why were all the AU hunters still there following him? Also, parts of it were cheesy, again, the way it was written. But I don't see that as Sam getting them all killed. to use the show's parlance - that's on Micheal. It wasn't something - gauging by some of the reactions here - that even we saw, and there are quite a few people here analyzing everything and what ifing until the cows come home. And I don't remember seeing anyone call that. So, I can't blame Sam on that one.

And I can't find the early post now but I got sidetracked earlier and didn't get to reply, that I saw the Souless Sam as being a cruel twist of fate for a character who has been portrayed as a real good guy. He was sociopathic with no soul and in that way - as you pointed out - really showed the whole conceptualization of what a soul brings to a human being. I liked your take on it.

Cheers!

DeeDee79 · March 8, 2019

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree, because they have done it... The trial storyline and especially Gadreel. And that was the last real supernatural storyline*** that Sam had - 5 seasons ago.

With all do respect Gadreel is not an apt comparison. Comparing the Samifer arc with the very brief Michael/Dean arc is more appropriate. Frankly as a Dean fan if I do tit for tat it's insulting IMO that Sam got his archangel storyline for 6 seasons off and on while Dean has been screwed over even though he was the first one to be labeled as a vessel. I understand that you're a Sam fan but Dean has gotten fucked over majorly in regards to this storyline. Please note that this is not to be an rehashing on all previous storylines; just the brothers as vessels.

25 minutes ago, Cambion said:

For me, the problem with the "leader" storyline was that it seemed to have been thrust upon him and they only seemed to show him screwing up, which couldn't have been all of it or otherwise why were all the AU hunters still there following him?

And let's not forget that Jared even thought that this storyline made zero sense.

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Yet another iconic Dean moment cheapened too. The scene of Jack spreading his wings was the exact same as Dean walking into that Church.

At least it didn't end with a marionette fight. Dabb and Singer save special stuff like that for the star of the show.

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2019

14 minutes ago, Cambion said:

I'm not sure I would agree that Sam got them all killed. For me, the problem with the "leader" storyline was that it seemed to have been thrust upon him and they only seemed to show him screwing up, which couldn't have been all of it or otherwise why were all the AU hunters still there following him? Also, parts of it were cheesy, again, the way it was written. But I don't see that as Sam getting them all killed. to use the show's parlance - that's on Micheal. It wasn't something - gauging by some of the reactions here - that even we saw, and there are quite a few people here analyzing everything and what ifing until the cows come home. And I don't remember seeing anyone call that. So, I can't blame Sam on that one.

I didn't call that it would be Michael, no, but I did call that Sam would make a decision that would result in all of the AU people being killed... I called that early on... because the writers can't seem to help themselves. It's their go-to now. It doesn't matter that Michael was the one to kill them. Just like it didn't matter that it was the Stynes who killed Charlie. The point will be that Sam made a decision because he didn't want to lose Dean - one that Dean argued against - and because of that, people got killed.

There was an entire conversation in thi past episode setting up that Dean wanted to go into the box and be done with it - world safe. It's also obvious that Dean was uncomfortable and worried that he wasn't able to go into the box. Michael does end up getting out - cue the "I told you so" and subsequent screaming. I mean Michael was killed (maybe?) about what 5 minutes later? But nope, the writers suddenly have to have the bunker full of the AU hunters (when was the last time we saw them all in the bunker?), just so that they can be killed because Sam didn't want to let Dean do what he thought he had to do. It wasn't really important to the story otherwise, in my opinion. It seemed to be there for maximum angst and "damage" from Sam's wanting Dean to give him time to "find another way."

It's just what the writers do. When Sam screws up, they generally throw in something that includes a bunch of deaths for some weird reason whether we see it or not and make sure it gets mentioned that 2073 people died or whatever... Lucifer (in both season 4 and 5) and Amara come to mind off the top of my head. We also had some die at the end of season 13 during Sam's plans. So I kind of saw this one coming a mile away. It's just what they do. (They do it with Castiel often as well).

I could be wrong and nothing will come of it in terms of repercussions... but in way that will be even more weird. Like why even have the AU people die with all of that fanfare if nothing is going to come of it? What then would be the point except to just randomly pile more blood on Sam's hands?

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

With all do respect Gadreel is not an apt comparison.

I mean no disrespect either. I wasn't trying to compare vessel stories. That's not what I thought @Aeryn13 was talking about, so I apologize if I interpreted it wrongly.

I was using Gadreel as an example of a story arc that started with Sam and was originally about Sam that then got handed over to another character to do the important character stuff, important plot development, and conclusion while Sam had no part in the resolution... and in that respect, I thought that it was a pretty good comparison with what happened with Dean's Michael story arc.

I get that some were very invested in this story arc, so that makes it different - me, not being as invested in Michael I don't feel that - but my point was that Sam has had a storyline that was handed over to someone else and where he didn't get to be a part of that story's resolution.

My comparison had nothing to do with vessels - only story arc mechanics.

Aeryn13 · March 8, 2019

What sucks even more is that the very few good things this Season are now also pointless and unwatchable. The Djinn and Dean and Nihilism? Who cares, it didn't amount to anything and never will. Pay-off? Pfft.

One episode I liked this Season and it thouroughly has been chucked into the garbage. What is left for Dean now, stupid guilt for getting the AU hunters killed because he couldn't contain Michael and fretting over Jackie-poo's completely OP was? Why bother watching that? He clearly isn't a skilled hunter anymore so the standalones will suck as well.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Aeryn13

ILoveReading · March 8, 2019

I'm more convinced then ever that there is a rule in the writers room that says Sam must always be stronger, faster, smarter, more capable, more intelligent, and better at everything then Dean, and also has to be the one who suffers the most.

A lamp has more of a role on the show then Dean these days because at least a lamp gives off light.

If Michael had left Dean in a coma at the end of episode 2, and Dean just work up this ep, literally nothing about this season would change.

tessathereaper · March 8, 2019

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm more convinced then ever that there is a rule in the writers room that says Sam must always be stronger, faster, smarter, more capable, more intelligent, and better at everything then Dean, and also has to be the one who suffers the most.

A lamp has more of a role on the show then Dean these days because at least a lamp gives off light.

If Michael had left Dean in a coma at the end of episode 2, and Dean just work up this ep, literally nothing about this season would change.

Who ever thought we'd get to a point that could be called even worse than "Lamp!Dean"? Now it's "LessThanALamp!Dean" 😞

ILoveReading · March 8, 2019

From @Aeryn13 in the ep 14 Thread

Quote

And Rowena, Billie`s books are crap so you are probably gonna be killed by some random mofo.

This is Sam's destiny so obviously that won't change.

Hana Chan · March 8, 2019

The problem, to me at least, is that as of late both Sam and Dean have become something of afterthoughts in their own mytharc storylines. There was a time when enemies were strong enough to be truly dangerous, but still killable if the boys were smart enough, determined enough and skilled enough to take them on. So long as the big bads were lower-level demons like Meg, it didn't seem out of the bounds of believably that the Winchesters could handle them. Even when Sam had his powers, it was a lot of struggle to handle even these lower-level opponents.

It was once we had the entry of Lucifer and the angels (Cas included) that both Sam and Dean were so painfully overpowered that there was no realistic way for them to actually defeat their foes on their own. Sam "handled" Lucifer by basically taking control long enough to commit suicide. Dean's plans to handle Micheal amounted pretty much to the same thing. In the past bunch of seasons, the only Big Bads that it worked for the boys to make the kills on their own (and those kills were almost always by Dean) were the Leviathans (due to their fatal flaw) and the Mother of Monsters. Otherwise the boys needed a supernaturally powerful ally (Crowley, Gabriel, Rowena, Castiel or now Jack) to do the heavy lifting. The challenges just aren't reasonable in a dramatic sense for two basically human hunters to take on.

I like big mytharcs, but the show has repeatedly painted situations as being so huge and end of the world dangerous that I just can't buy that two very smart, capable hunters could take them on and succeed. Lucifer, the Darkness, Michael... they could only be defeated by an equally powerful being in the end.

So to the Dean fans who are dissatisfied with how the AUMichael storyline panned out, I feel your pain. Us Sam fans have been here for quite awhile. It's about time for the boys (both of them) to become the active, central players in their own series. Unless they are given opponents that they can believably handle, we're going to continue this pattern of seeing both Sam and Dean sidelined in favor of the supernaturally powerful beings.

Aeryn13 · March 8, 2019

Quote

It was once we had the entry of Lucifer and the angels (Cas included) that both Sam and Dean were so painfully overpowered that there was no realistic way for them to actually defeat their foes on their own. Sam "handled" Lucifer by basically taking control long enough to commit suicide. Dean's plans to handle Micheal amounted pretty much to the same thing. In the past bunch of seasons, the only Big Bads that it worked for the boys to make the kills on their own (and those kills were almost always by Dean) were the Leviathans (due to their fatal flaw) and the Mother of Monsters. Otherwise the boys needed a supernaturally powerful ally (Crowley, Gabriel, Rowena, Castiel or now Jack) to do the heavy lifting. The challenges just aren't reasonable in a dramatic sense for two basically human hunters to take on.

But they are not really mythological small fries anymore either since they are on a first name basis with God and Death. The King of Hell was their frenemy and even Lucifer bitched to them on occassion like they were equals. Yes, power-wise, they haven`t leveled up but now if you give them smaller opponents that they could realistically handle, it looks weak because they have run with Gods and Giants for so long, some rando mid-level villian giving them trouble makes them look weak and incompetent now.

Dabb creates scenes like in the Premiere where Demon Nr.27 fangirls over Sam, then gains the upper hand on him but lo and behold, Sam dispatches him and stomps his foot so all the super-powered demons run away. And realistically both Zachariah and/or Cas should have killed both brothers with one punch each in the 300th episode.

I wanted Dean to at least have SOME pay-off in dispatching Michael. But this episode was like 5.22, Michael leaves Dean and is all "eh, Dean, over him" and then Jack gets the big hero shot while Dean is on the ground like some random stunt performer in the ep. Even the way Michael got out was so stupidly anticlimactic. The last 14 episodes were a complete waste. The entire Season 13 Finale was a waste. Jack is superpowered again, Michael is gone (as he was before he came over from Apoca-world) and nothing really fucking happened in between. Why did they bother writing and filming those scripts? Seems like a waste of time and money.

Pondlass1 · March 8, 2019

48 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

There was a time when enemies were strong enough to be truly dangerous, but still killable if the boys were smart enough, determined enough and skilled enough to take them on.

48 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

t was once we had the entry of Lucifer and the angels (Cas included) that both Sam and Dean were so painfully overpowered that there was no realistic way for them to actually defeat their foes on their own

I totally agree with these statements. In an attempt to constantly raise the bar in terms Bigger & Badder adversaries it's all become ridiculous and frustrating.

And it's not as if the Winchesters are being presented as smart guys who 'saved the world y'all'. Their actions last night were beyond stupid. Chop the head off. Don't stand around chatting about chickens and boiled eggs. And the vet scene was absurd.

After this frustratingly stupid episode, I watched the movie Life on Netflix. And once again was subjected to the rampant stupidity of today's writers. Good acting, amazing computer graphics - but in order for the plot to move forward every astronaut apparently possessed the brains of a turnip. Earth was doomed.

I pray (and I'm not even religious) that the finale season 15 will revert back to the way it began - saving people and hunting things. As a long time fan who's stuck with it through thick and thin (lots of thin) I deserve a decent final season dammit!!!

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2019

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm more convinced then ever that there is a rule in the writers room that says Sam must always be stronger, faster, smarter, more capable, more intelligent, and better at everything then Dean, and also has to be the one who suffers the most.

A lamp has more of a role on the show then Dean these days because at least a lamp gives off light.

If Michael had left Dean in a coma at the end of episode 2, and Dean just work up this ep, literally nothing about this season would change.

Mostly true - but we wouldn't have had Nihilism (unless they had a whole episode take place in Coma!Dean's head, which would have had pretty much the same amount of influence on the eventual outcome).

I am so, so, SO FUCKING OVER them painting Dean as a mouth-breathing moron, and never more-so than when they do it in conjunction with showing Sam as the braniac, puzzle solving, solution-finding genius. I HATE IT. And please do not try to equate Dean or anyone else teasing Sam about being too smart or too bookish with the constant insults towards Dean. They are just simply not the same thing.

The only redeeming thing in Ouroboros was that both Cas and Sam stated how strong Dean was to be able to hold back Michael for so long. No matter how or why he left him, nobody else has had the ability to do that and expecting that he could do it forever was too much. Even *I* didn't expect or need him to do that. But damn, I wanted a more heroic and satisfying end than what we got.

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2019

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael leaves Dean and is all "eh, Dean, over him"

I'm actually surprised they didn't have Nougat Sue tell Dean he was no longer part of this story.

PAForrest · March 8, 2019

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I pray (and I'm not even religious) that the finale season 15 will revert back to the way it began - saving people and hunting things. As a long time fan who's stuck with it through thick and thin (lots of thin) I deserve a decent final season dammit!!!

Wait, did I miss an announcement? Is NougatSueNatural ending with season 15? After this season, that would be about the best news I could hear - time to move on, Jensen, WAY past time to move on!

Otherwise, whenever this ends, it's not going to end particularly well for the Winchesters in the writing department, and certainly not for Dean - not with Dabb in charge. And I have to lay some of that blame at the feet of the Js. They hung around far too long, and now you have a showrunner who just doesn't care at all, and isn't going to put a ton of effort into insuring the Winchesters - you know, the real ones (Dean and Sam) - get a spectacular send off. I predict a total fizzle out. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean ain't even in the final episode.

FlickChick · March 8, 2019

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And now, considering everyone is dead, that's also the end of Sam's crappy enough already "leader" storyline. I knew he'd be the cause of them all being killed.

I don't know why most people assume that the Leader Sue storyline is over. (I don't read spoilers) I expect that SuperNougatJack will resurrect at least Maggie, and maybe the whole bunch so Leader Sue can continue in his role.

I cannot express how pissed I am about this latest FUCK DEAN OVER. The first time he was supposed to be the "only one who can end it" - the story was given to Sam. Now, when he finally gets a storyline as Michael's vessel, it's a joke and the big damn hero moment is given to a supporting character - Nougat Jack who then spreads his wings to stick it even more to those who wanted a TRUE STORYLINE for Dean. FUCK YOU DABB!! Because I don't think this was Yockey's idea/script. I think he was told what to write. There will be nothing else for this Dean fan to watch for the rest of this season, and for all I know, for the rest of the show. If we don't get a new showrunner or a finale announcement for next season, I think I'm out. And I fucking wish Jensen was too!!!!!

Res · March 8, 2019

35 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I don't know why most people assume that the Leader Sue storyline is over. (I don't read spoilers) I expect that SuperNougatJack will resurrect at least Maggie, and maybe the whole bunch so Leader Sue can continue in his role.

I cannot express how pissed I am about this latest FUCK DEAN OVER. The first time he was supposed to be the "only one who can end it" - the story was given to Sam. Now, when he finally gets a storyline as Michael's vessel, it's a joke and the big damn hero moment is given to a supporting character - Nougat Jack who then spreads his wings to stick it even more to those who wanted a TRUE STORYLINE for Dean. FUCK YOU DABB!! Because I don't think this was Yockey's idea/script. I think he was told what to write. There will be nothing else for this Dean fan to watch for the rest of this season, and for all I know, for the rest of the show. If we don't get a new showrunner or a finale announcement for next season, I think I'm out. And I fucking wish Jensen was too!!!!!

Right there with you. There's nothing left for this Dean fan.

Hana Chan · March 9, 2019

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wanted Dean to at least have SOME pay-off in dispatching Michael.

I don't disagree. I wanted it too since this has become a huge personal battle for Dean. The problem is that Michael was so above Dean's pay grade that short of getting a lucky strike with an archangel blade while Michael was in another vessel, there was no solution for Dean except suicide (the sea coffin). But I felt the same way with Lucifer - that after years of tormenting Sam topside (not to mention what happened to Sam in the Cage), Sam had zero role in "killing" Lucifer.

Between Cas and Jack (and to a lesser degree Rowena), the boys are constantly sidelined in their own storylines. They're given challenges that they can't handle (and usually made to look incompetent in the process) and whether you like Sam, Dean or both, we just don't get satisfying payoffs. Dean and Sam need to be the ones to solve their challenges and I'll be very happy to see all angels (Cas included) shuffle back to Heaven, Jack (as adorable as he is at times) sent elsewhere and let the boys focus on monsters and the occasion demon that gets too big for his britches. I think that the big apocalyptic mytharcs just don't work anymore.

tessathereaper · March 9, 2019

16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I don't disagree. I wanted it too since this has become a huge personal battle for Dean. The problem is that Michael was so above Dean's pay grade that short of getting a lucky strike with an archangel blade while Michael was in another vessel, there was no solution for Dean except suicide (the sea coffin). But I felt the same way with Lucifer - that after years of tormenting Sam topside (not to mention what happened to Sam in the Cage), Sam had zero role in "killing" Lucifer.

Between Cas and Jack (and to a lesser degree Rowena), the boys are constantly sidelined in their own storylines. They're given challenges that they can't handle (and usually made to look incompetent in the process) and whether you like Sam, Dean or both, we just don't get satisfying payoffs. Dean and Sam need to be the ones to solve their challenges and I'll be very happy to see all angels (Cas included) shuffle back to Heaven, Jack (as adorable as he is at times) sent elsewhere and let the boys focus on monsters and the occasion demon that gets too big for his britches. I think that the big apocalyptic mytharcs just don't work anymore.

But there is no reason that Dean and Sam can't be allowed to be able to handle these things. There are such things as power ups. The show doesn't have to limit "killing an Archangle" to "only with an Archangel weapon wielded by an Archangel"(which wasn't true anyway). I mean you know no man was supposed to be able to kill the Witch King - only it turned out that a woman and a hobbit could - that's what prophecies are for, that's what magical weapons are for, which have been part of Supernatural since the first season.

There are plenty of ways to write the show so Dean and Sam CAN handle these challenges, but the show refuses to do so. Because the writers are literally IMO the least imaginative, least creative, laziest, most passive aggressive writers in existence and are more interested in their "OCs" than in the main heroes of the show. They can't even keep their damn canon straight between episodes, writers contradict stuff that was in their own episodes. Dabb can't showrun for peanuts.

gonzosgirrl · March 9, 2019

55 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Sam had zero role in "killing" Lucifer

He certainly had more of a role than Dean did with Michael. In fact, if not for Sam grabbing on to Jack, they probably wouldn't have even gotten the opportunity, assuming Dean wouldn't have said yes to go after Jack. And then he threw the blade to Dean, who was in the process of getting snuffed out by Lucifer. No blade, no kill. Hardly zero role.

Compare and contrast with Dean getting his face slammed into a wall a few times, then being cast aside while two secondary players carry out the demise of the season's big bad.

Edited March 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

AwesomO4000 · March 9, 2019

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I don't know why most people assume that the Leader Sue storyline is over. (I don't read spoilers) I expect that SuperNougatJack will resurrect at least Maggie, and maybe the whole bunch so Leader Sue can continue in his role.

Because even assuming they are brought back to life - and I doubt it - Maggie was already taking over the leadership role starting a few episode ago and continuing into this episode anyway. And after everyone died by being in the bunker, there should be arguments against them staying... "you'll just be at risk here with us" etc. etc. It's more likely that this was an excuse to get rid of them and reboot the story, and it doesn't matter that Sam will look bad in the process. The writers will think that will be a small price to pay, and they generally don't shy away from that kind of thing where Sam is concerned anyway.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He certainly had more of a role than Dean did with Michael.

Maybe not in the death itself, but he did in stopping Michael's plan. By trapping Michael in his mind, Dean put him on ice for weeks, so that he couldn't continue his plan. If not for Dean holding Michael at bay, Jack likely wouldn't have had the chance to kill him, because he would've likely been long gone. It's not perfect by any means, but it's at least a role... unlike say Sam's non-role with Amara's being stopped, or the YED's death, or Dick Roman's death. On that last one, Sam did share a role with Kevin in getting rid of the tainted food, but in stopping Dick Roman himself: no. Almost no part at all. You can also add Eve and Abbadon to the list of Sam having no role... and Metatron. It's a long list, so yes, Sam got to throw Dean the blade so Dean could stab Lucifer, but except for some thrown together, mostly meaningless "make-up" kills in season 12, it had been a long time since Sam had a role in a meaningful bad guy demise.

And I wouldn't even care about that accept some of those beings that needed killing, needed killing because of things Sam had done, so that Sam had no role in cleaning up the mess he'd caused kind of made that annoying.

Aeryn13 · March 9, 2019

I disagree. When it mattered Dean had NO role in dispatching Michael. Sam got a critical contribution to dispatching Lucifer (after dealing with him single handedly the first time).

Now the Nougat Sue dealt with Michael singlehandedly. We even got the scene where Michael made it clear Dean was as useless and unimportant to him as an old shoe now. Thanks a lot, show. I love repeats of the vilest episode ever.

ILoveReading · March 9, 2019

Since I believe the Michael storyline was extra incentive for Jensen to sign, I think its over and done with. I personally believe it was over and done with once the ink dried on Jensen's contract.

Reasons why I feel this way (and I'm going to try very hard to stick to facts and leave personal feelings out of this list

Dabb blowing off Jensen when he asked for help. Confirmed by Jensen himself at that Q&A at the premier screening. I believe the words he used were "I was an island unto myself).
Very little Michael in the premier. It was timed at less than 8 minutes
Confirmation from cons that that the two small scenes were did have were cut.
Michael being taken out very easily and off screen.
Multiple changing stories from the powers that be. First Michael is the big bad than he isn't. (The two contradictory interviews that Dabb and BuckLemming gave pretty much back to back.
Dabb's breathing room comment that gave him the opporutnity to focus on other things, beside Michael.*
Very little chance to develope this character. Ep 1, two small scenes and important lines about Michael's motivations cut. Ep2. Set up Michael's plan but Michael taken care of off screen. Ep 3- a 1-2 mintues flashback where Michael got his ass handed to him. Ep 9. About one minute, the important more emotional scene given to a guest Actor. Ep 10, The one ep Jensen got the chance. Ep 14. What 2 mintues of a literal scene of Michael discarding Dean like an old shoe. Didn't even get to play a part in dispatching Michael.
In between. Very little aftermath. Ep 3 was all about Kaia berating Dean. One half hearted line defending him. Ep 5 A scene that was never followed up on. ep 7. Two 30second scenes of fuzzy vision. No follow up. Episode 11, 12. Once again used to brand Dean as some kind of weak quitter. That was the motive both Sam and Cas assisgned to Dean. Dean given not real oppourtinity to stand up for himself.

So there has been almost nothing about Michael when its spelled out.

It was never a story Dabb was interested in telling. It was the time waster inbetween Sam's leader arc, Jack woobie arc and Nick.

So I don't believe its coming back, becuase it was never there in the first place.

*I understand Dabb's breathing room comment is open for debate but given that he used the opportunity to push leader Sam, Jack, Nick and everyone but Dean I think it truly mean, getting Dean off screen.

Other reasons why I dont' believe there is a twist is because there hasn't been all season. This is not directed at anyone, just comments and spec I've seen from multiple sources.

Ep 2 "don't lose hope, Im sure Michael wouldn't just leave Dean." He did.

Ep3- "I'm sure Michael woudn't be taken out that easy." He was.

Ep 4-8 "I'm sure we'll get more flashbacks." We didn't.

Second half- "Im sure they won't drop the story that easily." They did.

So I see zero reason to hope. Its even more depressing spelled out.

I don't want Cage Michael back or AU Michael if there is no tie to Dean. This episode established that's over.

Edited March 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

PAForrest · March 9, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb blowing off Jensen when he asked for help. Confirmed by Jensen himself at that Q&A at the premier screening. I believe the words he used were "I was an island unto myself).

Very little Michael in the premier. It was timed at less than 8 minutes

Confirmation from cons that that the two small scenes were did have were cut.

Michael being taken out very easily and off screen.

Multiple changing stories from the powers that be. First Michael is the big bad than he isn't. (The two contradictory interviews that Dabb and BuckLemming gave pretty much back to back.

Dabb's breathing room comment that gave him the opporutnity to focus on other things, beside Michael.*

Very little chance to develope this character. Ep 1, two small scenes and important lines about Michael's motivations cut. Ep2. Set up Michael's plan but Michael taken care of off screen. Ep 3- a 1-2 mintues flashback where Michael got his ass handed to him. Ep 9. About one minute, the important more emotional scene given to a guest Actor. Ep 10, The one ep Jensen got the chance. Ep 14. What 2 mintues of a literal scene of Michael discarding Dean like an old shoe. Didn't even get to play a part in dispatching Michael.

In between. Very little aftermath. Ep 3 was all about Kaia berating Dean. One half hearted line defending him. Ep 5 A scene that was never followed up on. ep 7. Two 30second scenes of fuzzy vision. No follow up. Episode 11, 12. Once again used to brand Dean as some kind of weak quitter. That was the motive both Sam and Cas assisgned to Dean. Dean given not real oppourtinity to stand up for himself.

So there has been almost nothing about Michael when its spelled out.

It was never a story Dabb was interested in telling. It was the time waster inbetween Sam's leader arc, Jack woobie arc and Nick.

So I don't believe its coming back, becuase it was never there in the first place.

*I understand Dabb's breathing room comment is open for debate but given that he used the opportunity to push leader Sam, Jack, Nick and everyone but Dean I think it truly mean, getting Dean off screen.

Other reasons why I dont' believe there is a twist is because there hasn't been all season. This is not directed at anyone, just comments and spec I've seen.

Ep 2 "don't lose hope, Im sure Michael wouldn't just leave Dean." He did.

Ep3- "I'm sure Michael woudn't be taken out that easy." He was.

Ep 4-8 "I'm sure we'll get more flashbacks." We didn't.

Second half- "Im sure they won't drop the story that easily." They did.

So I see zero reason to hope. Its even more depressing spelled out.

I don't want Cage Michael back or AU Michael if there is no tie to Dean. This episode established that's over.

That's all very logical, because it's all true. As to Cage Michael, yeah, what would be the point anyway? There's no reason Dean would or should consider it, what with AU Mike dead. Only reason to address Cage Mike is maybe to get Adam out of the cage, but that could happen without actually releasing Cage Mike if any of the producers really wanted to address it, which they haven't in all these years. Could still happen, but it's got nothing to do with anyone needing to be a vessel or needing to use Cage Mike, who is supposed to be a basket case anyway.

I really don't see any reason to think AU Mike isn't over. What I don't understand is why Jensen isn't in next week's episode, for the most part, or may be super lite for much of the rest of the season (remains to be seen, just judging from when he's been in Vancouver and when he hasn't). It's not like Dean is incapacitated because of having to keep AU Mike at bay anymore, so that excuse is null and void.

Edited March 9, 2019 by PAForrest

SueB · March 9, 2019

Quote

Other reasons why I dont' believe there is a twist is because there hasn't been all season. This is not directed at anyone, just comments and spec I've seen.

Ep 2 "don't lose hope, Im sure Michael wouldn't just leave Dean." He did.

Ep3- "I'm sure Michael woudn't be taken out that easy." He was.

Ep 4-8 "I'm sure we'll get more flashbacks." We didn't.

Second half- "Im sure they won't drop the story that easily." They did.

So I see zero reason to hope. Its even more depressing spelled out.

I don't want Cage Michael back or AU Michael if there is no tie to Dean. This episode established that's over.

Except for the flashbacks, I think each statement you claim is false is in fact true as originally posted - and since I introduced the word "twist" and these all seem like my direct quotes, I thought I'd be clear, I think all these things except flashback came to pass.

Edited March 9, 2019 by SueB
simplified post

ILoveReading · March 9, 2019

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Except for the flashbacks, I think each statement you claim is false is in fact true as originally posted

What good was the the thing in episode 5 if it wasnt' followed up on. I still have no clue what the Djinn meant. The scene in episode 7 didn't even rate a mention. Dean wasn't even concerned that something happened.

If that was Michael trying to crush Dean failed miserably.

Michael was easy to take out. Ninja Sue kicked his ass in less than a minute. When Michael repossessed Dean Sam and Cas took him out in about two minutes. In Dean's head he was locked up fairly easily. Then when he got out he threw Dean way like an old shoe and was easily dispatched by Jack.

The only person who didn't really beat him was Dean.

Yes, he might have have had Michael say that Dean squirmed too much, but when Michael left it was because he chose too, not because Dean beat him. In fact the only person who couldn't beat Michael was Dean.

There was one one on one confrontation that lasted 10 seconds. I didn't really find 11-14 Dean centric at all. Maybe 11 was somewhat but episode 12 was far more about how Dean's actions were affecting Sam and how much Dean was making Sam sad. No one actually gave a damn about what Dean was feeling. Sam refused to listen to what Dean was actually saying. The episode branded him a weak quitter and had Sam punch him to make him behave. Not to mention Cas being a massive hypocrite with the secret he's keeping. I found that ep far more Sam centric then Dean. It was Sam's POV when it should have been Dean.

Episode 13 Same thing. it was more about Sam. Sam go the closure, Dean got to once again bury everything.

As a viewer I felt nothing during ep 12, and 13, and now 14. There was zero payoff to this storyline for this Dean fan. it's just another of Deans' traums'a that will be buried and ignored. Because he had antibodies and there is always a reason why Dean never needs payoff. Since Dean isnt' real, I do.

I stand by my claims of everything I said. The writers couldn't wait to drop this story, and shoe horned in the absolute bare minimum. There was basically one episode in the entire run and that all turned out to be a read herring.

The writers failed miserably for the worst reason of all. They didn't even try. So no, my claims are not false.

The writers failed Jensen in every way with how half assed this was.

Edited March 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

Aeryn13 · March 9, 2019

Quote

Except for the flashbacks, I think each statement you claim is false is in fact true as originally posted - and since I introduced the word "twist" and these all seem like my direct quotes, I thought I'd be clear, I think all these things except flashback came to pass.

I think the "wouldn`t just leave Dean" in ep 2 refers to people claiming he was probably hiding inside and it was just a trick. But he did genuinely leave Dean at that point. Now due to Michael having some weird-ass plan and leaving a little back-door open or whatever this wonky-eyed syndrome was, that has a bit of wiggle room.

And the "I`m sure he didn`t get taken out as easily" refered to Kaia easily defeating him with her little backflips and her magic fork - that wasn`t negated at all. She won that fight, as ridiculous as it was.

Still, it in no way means that wasn`t just the lame anticlimactic ending for Dean`s connection with Michael - shoved into a wall and then the Nougat Wonder comes in and handles the story of a supposed lead character.

ILoveReading · March 9, 2019

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the "wouldn`t just leave Dean" in ep 2 refers to people claiming he was probably hiding inside and it was just a trick. But he did genuinely leave Dean at that point. Now due to Michael having some weird-ass plan and leaving a little back-door open or whatever this wonky-eyed syndrome was, that has a bit of wiggle room.

And the "I`m sure he didn`t get taken out as easily" refered to Kaia easily defeating him with her little backflips and her magic fork - that wasn`t negated at all. She won that fight, as ridiculous as it was.

Still, it in no way means that wasn`t just the lame anticlimactic ending for Dean`s connection with Michael - shoved into a wall and then the Nougat Wonder comes in and handles the story of a supposed lead character.

Exactly.

SueB · March 9, 2019

Here's the longer version:

Other reasons why I dont' believe there is a twist is because there hasn't been all season. This is not directed at anyone, just comments and spec I've seen.

Ep 2 "don't lose hope, Im sure Michael wouldn't just leave Dean." He did.

No, he didn't. He left a part of himself in Dean -- as evidenced by the wonky vision and him in fact stating that this is what he did.

Ep3- "I'm sure Michael woudn't be taken out that easy." He was.

No he wasn't. He realized the other-universe spear had power to hurt him and retreated. He wasn't 'taken out'. He came back several episode later, got the spear from Dean and broke it.

Ep 4-8 "I'm sure we'll get more flashbacks." We didn't.

Your right, we didn't. But we got AUMichael setting up a new plan. He creates super-monsters. We had the D'Jinn recognize that AUMichael was still a part of Dean with the "you!". We had "wonky vision" which was seeing the action THRU AUMichael's eyes. We had Dmitri LIKELY an agent for AUMichael (giving Jack AUMichael grace instead of 'convenient' Gabriel grace) for his 'experiement'. The use of the word 'experiment' is a red flag that AUMichael got to Dmitri before Cas did.

Second half- "Im sure they won't drop the story that easily." They did.
Your POV that 9, 10, 11, 12 and 14 weren't AUMichael-heavy is not the same as mind. This is just opinion. Not fact. I saw it as AUMichael in Dean as the primary mytharc - like ALL seasons handle the primary mytharc - and everything else was Supernatural 101.

So I see zero reason to hope. Its even more depressing spelled out.
Your perogative. I'm not encouraging you to hope. I'm just saying I think there IS a plot twist with AUMichael coming.

I don't want Cage Michael back or AU Michael if there is no tie to Dean. This episode established that's over.
My anticipation of a plot twist with AUMichael is not dependant on it being Dean-centric. But I also don't expect him to be a bystander.

AUMichael is the villain and the mytharc of the season IMO. We are seeing as much of the Big Bad and mytharc as we see for MOST seasons IMO. I'm satisfied that AUMichael has been the major mytharc of the season. I'm not sure AUMichael's story is over - my sastisafaction is NOT tied to Dean being possessed.

Edited March 9, 2019 by SueB

ILoveReading · March 9, 2019

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

My anticipation of a plot twist with AUMichael is not dependant on it being Dean-centric. But I also don't expect him to be a bystander.

He's been a bystander this entire season.

The whole thing with the box and spear was just a red herring that really meant nothing to the end of this storyline.

If Michael had left him in a coma in episode 2, and Michael showed up a the bunker this ep looking for Dean, and found him in a coma and came across Rowena, nothing about the Michael story line changes.

Dean didn't factor into it.

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

AUMichael is the villain and the mytharc of the season IMO. We are seeing as much of the Big Bad and mytharc as we see for MOST seasons IMO. I'm satisfied that AUMichael has been the major mytharc of the season. I'm not sure AUMichael's story is over - my sastisafaction is NOT tied to Dean being possessed.

We were told Michael is not the main villian. I don't need Dean to be possessed, but I wanted to at least see him play a part. He didn't. He was shoved to the sidelines.

https://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-14-michael-not-big-bad/

Quote

During The CW’s fall launch event, TV Line had a chance to speak with Ross-Lerning about plans for the new season. The EP revealed that Michael isn’t the season’s Big Bad, saying, “Everybody has to find a way to undo Michael, who’s the super villain as we start out the year, but will not be the primary villain.”

Edited March 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

Aeryn13 · March 9, 2019

Quote

No he wasn't. He realized the other-universe spear had power to hurt him and retreated. He wasn't 'taken out'. He came back several episode later, got the spear from Dean and broke it.

He took it from Dean, not from Kaia. Even realizing that Spear could hurt him, he is still an archangel, he could have simply snapped his fingers and broken her arms and legs at once, he still could have punched through her smug little face. I find it ridiculous that he retreated at all.

Quote

We were told by Dabb he wasn't. I don't need Dean to be possessed, but I wanted to at least see him play a part. He didn't. He was shoved to the sidelines.

I agree. My interest of Michael, any Michael, AU or not, is completely dependent on how intricately he is tied to Dean. Any other character like Jack and I don`t give a crap. In fact, seeing as it was supposed to be Dean`s story, it is even more insulting.

Dean having the Michael connection was the only trade-off we`ve got in a show where Dean as a hunter never makes any plans anymore or figures stuff out but is mainly incompetent. So without the story-arc, what do I have left for Dean? His Sam-obsession? No thanks. That is my least liked feature about him.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Aeryn13

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