“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Maren]

3 hours ago, devlin said:

I swear this show only works when you come to the realisation that the only good guy is dean and that every other character is just someone who is a bad guy trying  to tear him down. It’s a show that is about the resilience of one man who is living in a world with zero support where everyone is out to hurt him but somehow manages to retain his humanity and everything that comes with it. It’s depressing.

Well said, well said. Multiple likes, if I could!! That's pretty much what I've come to too. Could have used a pick up today, but show is a no go again. 

 

Quote

The most depressing thing is that even though dean has sacrificed his life and his very being for sam since  the age of 4, sam still refuses to take dean’s side or even stand up for him. By letting the horrible things people say about dean stand, sam is basically agreeing with them

That really bugs me. I don't get why they never have Sam defend Dean. Every time it comes to it, Sam half-azzes it and basically acts like he agrees with whatever is said or thought about Dean. Dean. It's infuriating and frustrating and I'm tired of Show acting like Dean is an uncouth, murdering loser who has no value. 

 

Ugh, I really hope that blind item is Jensen. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Maren
Edited to add a quote and comment

[ILoveReading]

I figure I was best off putting my review here since its were all my thoughts belong.

Berens doesnt' see Dean as a bully.  LMAO.  That's exactly how he was written.  making him mean to Jack and KaiaSue

Dean getting his ass handed to him in a fight. 

Dean being badgered to talk.  (Im sure the suck it up will come).

Flashbacks barely listing a minute. 

Dean calling himself stupid and a dick

Even if Kaia isn't the big bad, the Michael story now revolves around her.   It's Dean Who, all over again, just like with Amara.

Michael getting his ass handed to him once again and by a teenage sue of all people.   So much for Dean being his perfect vessel. 

No one bothering to stand up for Dean or correct him when he thinks he's week.

No, I'd say Berens and Dabb have little to no use or interest in Dean. 

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I see the comparisons of Weak Dean couldn't take out an arch angel while Super Sam did, have started. 

Of course no mention of Dean being there, it was apparently just Sam and Sam alone that did that.   This is why I loath Swan Song.  It makes it so easy to dismiss Dean and so many do,

Same with the writers having him call himself a dick. There's no few out there who just can't wait to agree with him on that and label it as being "self-aware" instead of self-loathing-which is what it actually is, IMO, because Dean is no more of a dick than Sam or Jack or Cas or Mary or Bobby is or has ever been on this show-and AFAIC, he's actually much less of a dick than these characters have been at times over the course of this show-but Dean is the only character on this show who gets to bestow that particular honorific on himself so often.

Gee, I wonder why.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I figure I was best off putting my review here since its were all my thoughts belong.

Berens doesnt' see Dean as a bully.  LMAO.  That's exactly how he was written.  making him mean to Jack and KaiaSue

Dean getting his ass handed to him in a fight. 

Dean being badgered to talk.  (Im sure the suck it up will come).

Flashbacks barely listing a minute. 

Dean calling himself stupid and a dick

Even if Kaia isn't the big bad, the Michael story now revolves around her.   It's Dean Who, all over again, just like with Amara.

Michael getting his ass handed to him once again and by a teenage sue of all people.   So much for Dean being his perfect vessel. 

No one bothering to stand up for Dean or correct him when he thinks he's week.

No, I'd say Berens and Dabb have little to no use or interest in Dean. 

Their interest in both the character and the actor who portrays him starts and stops with strictly what he can do for their favorites either by propping and pimping them or by being "less" than them in any and every way that they can contrive and Dabb and co. seem to me to have made it their life's ambition to do this.

[PAForrest]

7 hours ago, devlin said:

I swear this show only works when you come to the realisation that the only good guy is dean and that every other character is just someone who is a bad guy trying  to tear him down. It’s a show that is about the resilience of one man who is living in a world with zero support where everyone is out to hurt him but somehow manages to retain his humanity and everything that comes with it. It’s depressing.

Wow, I both love this and yes am depressed by this description, because how much constant crapping on the hero, the good man (or woman), can any given person normally take in a book, show, movie, before you just want to see him/her die so that the pain finally stops? Yeah, that's Dean Winchester to a tee, and this is the only way the show in any fashion works for me at all anymore, even in the drips and drabs that I watch of it, especially when the real bad guys are the writers. Maybe this is why Dean remains such an iconic character despite the personal preferences of any particular writer or showrunner.

Many many likes for your post!

[ILoveReading]

Spoiler

I bet when Chief messes up and gets someone killed due to his leadership, everyone is going to rush to reassure him that he did good and it wasn't his fault.  Starting with Dean, Cas, Jack, Mary, Bobby and everyone one of the AU hunters. 

It's Dean who gets the negative writing with no counter dialogue.

8 hours ago, devlin said:

I swear this show only works when you come to the realisation that the only good guy is dean and that every other character is just someone who is a bad guy trying  to tear him down. It’s a show that is about the resilience of one man who is living in a world with zero support where everyone is out to hurt him but somehow manages to retain his humanity and everything that comes with it. It’s depressing.

I wish I could like this 100x

[gonzosgirrl]

And again, speaking to the different POVs these writers give the brothers. Not one of the AU people have shown Dean any respect, despite the fact their sorry asses would still be there (and probably dead) if not for (among other things) Dean fixing the bus that got them to the rift. It's all about their 'chief'. And when Dean mocked that, Sam was all bashful and "I asked them not to" - the implication being that he's just so damn awesome they can't help themselves. And it's all left to stand, while Dean is calling himself a dick. A situation, I might add, that was a complete set-up, with "Dean doesn't matter" Nougat boy going all dewey eyed puppy over him, and then big bad Dean kicking the poor little fella.

I've come to the conclusion that the writers/showrunners are jealous and petty. They can't be Dean and they can't have Jensen, so they wield the only power they have and take it out on the character.

[BabySpinach]

11.23

Dean: Cas, you only wanted to help, you're family, you're valued and loved.

Cas: Well, I WAS just trying to help.

Cas gets to agree with Dean's reassurance and his whole stupid decision with Lucifer is wrapped up in a nice little bow.

14.03

Dean: I was stupid for saying yes.

Sam: You did what you had to. 

Dean: Yeah but I'm weak and useless and it's all my fault that super monsters are cropping up and--

Sam: *crickets*

No expressions of love or intrinsic value for Dean, no sir! Just let Dean have the last word and have those statements just sit there, with no counter at all. What a fucking joke. 

When was the last time Sam or Cas were verbally decimated and had it stand without any refutation whatsoever? It's usually Dean who reassures them and helps to soothe their angst. I guess when the shoe is on the other foot, the show is trying to tell me that Sam and Cas simply don't have Dean's depth of empathy and compassion. They're like little siblings or children, accustomed to being catered to whenever they feel down, while Dean is the underappreciated parent who always knows what to say but never gets the same in return. Not a very flattering look for a thirty-six-year old man or a millions-year-old angel.

[ZennyKenny]

19 hours ago, devlin said:

I swear this show only works when you come to the realisation that the only good guy is dean and that every other character is just someone who is a bad guy trying  to tear him down. It’s a show that is about the resilience of one man who is living in a world with zero support where everyone is out to hurt him but somehow manages to retain his humanity and everything that comes with it. It’s depressing.

It's like Dean is still in Hell from season 3 and is being psychologically tortured.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's like Dean is still in Hell from season 3 and is being psychologically tortured.

That would make a good series finale. At least we'd know it was asshole demons treating him like this the past ten years and not his friends and family.

[devlin]

So sam’s grief beard was not coz of his distress over dean but rather he was too busy one day to shave it and for some reason someone said it looked good so he decided to keep it. Was anyone grieving for dean? Sam got a new look, Mary got a new boyfriend and cas became a father

[devlin]

I love how JA rises above the writing. I bet that scene where dean changes clothes it was just one line of dean changes clothes. Through JA it became a very poignant scene with dean dealing with the emotion of the possession and ridding himself of Michael

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

When was the last time Sam or Cas were verbally decimated and had it stand without any refutation whatsoever?

Not sure about Castiel, but Sam often enough. There's probably little point in me elaborating though.

[Reganne]

10 hours ago, devlin said:

So sam’s grief beard was not coz of his distress over dean but rather he was too busy one day to shave it and for some reason someone said it looked good so he decided to keep it. Was anyone grieving for dean? Sam got a new look, Mary got a new boyfriend and cas became a father

Sam was too busy and a big part of that was him looking for Dean.  Not sleeping and turning down food etc in favour of looking for leads.  

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's like Dean is still in Hell from season 3 and is being psychologically tortured.

 

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That would make a good series finale. At least we'd know it was asshole demons treating him like this the past ten years and not his friends and family.

ITA. This would work so well for me.

[ILoveReading]

38 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam was too busy and a big part of that was him looking for Dean.  Not sleeping and turning down food etc in favour of looking for leads.  

And yet he wasn't too busy to keep it neatly groomed.  If he can groom he can shave.  That's why that didnt' work for me.    Sam didnt' need to be as busy as he was.  Mary and Bobby were right there and should have been looking after the AU hunters.  They could have had Maggie look after Nick so Sam didn't have too.  Cas could have handled the interrogation of Nick.   It's called delegating.  Then poor poor Sam would have had time eat. 

The show didn't need to set things up that way.  They could have shown Sam looking Dean instead of telling it off screen.

Edited October 27, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

For me personally, I could care less about the Michael storyline if it doesn't revolve around Dean.  Without Jensen, Michael is just another boring, douchebag angel that I don't care about.  So for me the Michael storyline is over. 

Michael isn't coming after Dean.   He's not in danger.   We'll get Dean worrying about it but nothing will actually come of it.  He's tracking Kaia and her weapon.  The storyline is hers now. 

IMO, Michael isn't the priority for these writers.  That was shouted from the roof tops these last 3 eps.  Jody said she was going to track down the thing that killed her sweet Kaia.  Given her teenage Mutant Ninja Sue status they've established that Michael really is no match for her, especially in the weak Vessel that is Dean's.  I still wouldn't rule out Kaia as the big bad.  

I suspect the person who actually confronts Dark Kaia will be Claire

So I'm guessing as of now what Michael is up too is looking for a better vessel.  One that is indestructible.  Which means Nick.  Given that Dabb, creams himself over Mark P, I wouldn't rule our a Lucifer/Michael hybrid.  If Michael looks like Lucifer, its no longer going to be about Dean's trauma.   It will be about Sam's because every time Michael shows up, Dean will end up right back in the supportive role and burying his trauma.

As for Dean's trauma, its not being explored.  Just Deans' saying he's worried, and degrading himself at every opportunity and everyone looking at him like he's some kind of diseased killer Puppy, and no one saying anything, because "he wouldn't' listen anyway." Isn't exploring it.  They need to allow Dean to confront his trauma.  People actually need to be supportive.  The conversations need to be two sides.

We need to see a confrontation with Michael and Dean that Dean wins.  They need to give Dean a voice and allow him to realize he's not what they say he is.  The scene at the end of Dream of a Little Dream of me, is a perfect example of exploring and confronting trauma.

Ex- Sam could have said to Dean when he was calling himself weak-

"Hey, Dean remember, when I fought Lucifer I I had something you didn't.  I had you, right there fighting with me.  You had no one you were alone."  it wouldn't have solved the problem but it couldnt hurt and it could give Dean another POV.  Or, "Dean, if you hadn't said yes, Michael would still be out there, but so would Lucifer and we'd have two arch angels to deal with instead of one, not to mention me and Jack would be dead.  So whatever happens, thanks for saving us.."  Those aren't platitudes.  They're truths. 

This season IMO, belongs to Biker Barbie and her band of Merry Sues. 

If Berens didnt' see Dean as a bully he wouldn't constantly write him as one.

[Reganne]

53 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

And yet he wasn't too busy to keep it neatly groomed.  If he can groom he can shave.  That's why that didnt' work for me.    Sam didnt' need to be as busy as he was.  Mary and Bobby were right there and should have been looking after the AU hunters.  They could have had Maggie look after Nick so Sam didn't have too.  Cas could have handled the interrogation of Nick.   It's called delegating.  Then poor poor Sam would have had time eat. 

The show didn't need to set things up that way.  They could have shown Sam looking Dean instead of telling it off screen.

 

Well technically they had him looking for Dean on and off screen.  When he pushed away the soup and went to the computer, he was looking for leads.  The whole second episode of the season was Sam, Bobby and Mary looking for Dean.  Well the parts they were featured in anyway.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Well technically they had him looking for Dean on and off screen.  When he pushed away the soup and went to the computer, he was looking for leads.  The whole second episode of the season was Sam, Bobby and Mary looking for Dean.  Well the parts they were featured in anyway.

Regardless, Sam's beard was not about not having time to shave and had nothing to do with his missing Dean.  He liked it.  The last ep showed us that

[SueB]

@ILoveReading

DEAN, thought he was a dick.  And Jody and Sam were just worried IMO. 

So I disagree that Berens or Sam and Jody think he’s a dick. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

@ILoveReading

DEAN, thought he was a dick.  And Jody and Sam were just worried IMO. 

So I disagree that Berens or Sam and Jody think he’s a dick. 

Talk is cheap if its not backed up.  Dean, in this episode was shown to be a bully to Jack.  Jack left crying when Dean told him to stay back.  Dean pulled a gun on a scared, traumatized teenager for no other reason than to get her in the car (this was Beren's words after that ep aired  He said he did it becaue he would never shoot).  So that's either extremely lazy writing or Berens really sees Dean this way.  Neither is acceptable.   Then Dean puched her and tied her up, and wanted to torture her and then threatened her.   All the while Sam and Jody kept looking at Dean like he was some kind of diseased killer

No one refuted that.  That would have been a good time to remind Dean off all the good he's done.

This isn't the first time he wrote Dean that way.

If he didn't' feel that way, he wouldn't' write  him that way.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Unpopular Opinions" thread just to be safe:

7 hours ago, SueB said:

I don't know.  If I was to stab at a guess, I'd say that Carver had a more focused 'three year plot' emphasis with the overall character arcs of reshaping the boys relationship to be less codependent and more partnership.  He ended up taking 4 years versus 3. So first Carver went MORE toxic (S8-bulk of S9) and then healed the boys.  So the boys were (IMO) demonstrating almost extreme examples of the worst parts of their personality. Dean was more outwardly controlling, Sam was more outwardly aloof. All while their inner turmoil was about their low self esteem being fueled by a warped perception of how their brother viewed them. Sam thought Dean believed he (Sam) was a 'screw-up' and would rather trust a vampire.  Dean thought he (Dean) was a grunt destined to die bloody while Sam went off to an apple pie life.  S8 ended with the boys getting a less warped view of how the other perceived them.  S9 tackled extremes Dean would go to for Sam. S10 tacked the extremes Sam would go to for Dean.  S11 resulted in a more trusting relationship based on mutual brotherly love (I don't remotely mean anything of the Wincest variety) and respect but put back into the perspective of "Saving People, Hunting Things" bumper sticker.  So, I think Carver's 4-year character dynamic was ultimately successful.  But his episode-by-episode character dynamic was often filled with fear-driven bad behavior.  I think Singer bought into the long-term goal and approach.  I think it was definitely during the Carver era that the show became almost better as a binge-watch than week by week.  The long arcs were much more obvious.

I guess I can sort of see this except that the brothers were partially on their way there already and, for me, didn't need to be dragged backwards and do sometimes horrible - and for me out of character - things to get there. And the writers for me weren't even taking that character growth seriously, so why should I?

How did Sam's "inner turmoil" translate to leaving Kevin to Crowley's devices? Even with Sam's aloofness that seems somewhat extreme... and instead of addressing that as a character flaw to be improved upon and ultimately have Sam learn and grow, it was turned into a joke. Both Sam's questionable behavior with Kevin and Sam's not looking for Dean was treated as a joke with humorous jabs ("Eeeeeat me" and "Sam hit a dog"). Why am I supposed to take any character growth seriously when the writers don't even seem to be taking it seriously?

And other fairly callous behavior by Sam - and Dean was also played for laughs. The "Kevin realizes it's not really Sam and Dean, because they were actually decent to him" scene is a great example. Was I supposed to find it humorous that Sam and Dean have been treating Kevin callously and only as a source of information to get the trials done? Because I certainly didn't find that characterization of them funny, and it wasn't really addressed directly as a plot point or "character growth" for Sam or Dean, so what was Carver and the writers trying to tell me with all of that?

For me, I mainly only found (some of) Carver's 4-year character dynamic "successful," because it ultimately brought Sam pretty much similar to where he was in season 7 - wanting to hunt and wanting to make a difference and appreciating what Dean had done for him. However, I didn't find it successful for Dean. In my opinion, Carver stunted Dean's potential for growth, starting with ignoring the potential growth that could have come from purgatory and then by justifying almost all Dean's extreme behaviors to save Sam... any message of "the extremes Dean went to were wrong" were lost when there weren't really any bad repercussions for what Dean did - not only did Gadreel help them save the world, so good thing Dean lied all of that time to keep Gadreel in Sam, but even Kevin dying had good consequences: good thing Kevin was a ghost or his mother would have died. Dean killing Death to save Sam and there being no bad consequences whatsoever - and actually some good ones - was just the icing on that confusing cake. If I was supposed to get the message that Dean going to extremes to save Sam is bad... Carver entirely missed the mark, and almost deliberately seemed to be undermining that message. In the end in season 9, Sam was the one who looked badly for not forgiving Dean earlier, so that season may have tackled "extremes Dean would go to for Sam," but it seemed to conclude that it was just fine: with Gadreel redeemed, Kevin helping his mother and ultimately a happy ending. Dean turning into a demon was due to something else not directly related to Dean going to extremes to save Sam, so that doesn't count as a cautionary tale on that front.

So even though season 10 did tackle the extremes Sam would go to to save Dean, the message was uneven. In Sam's case, he literally caused an apocalypse. And for me, it's hard to believe that was an accident. First there was the Kevin/Charlie contrast.  Compare Kevin who saved his mom and got back with her and then ultimately got his eternal rest in heaven to dead Charlie who got nothing but ugly death. What is the message there? Then there are the consequences for Dean's extreme actions versus Sam's. Dean's ultimately lead to helping stop the apocalypse - because Gadreel was redeemed and helped make Castiel's escape possible - while Sam's caused an apocalypse.

And I might think that okay now we have the evolving message that going to extremes to save each other is questionable being the same for both Sam and Dean, if not for the fact that in the exact same episode Sam going to his extremes to save Dean comes to head and causes an apocalypse... Dean goes to extremes - again - to save Sam and kills freakin' Death himself... and nothing bad happens because of that. At all. In fact later good things ultimately happen again and New Death helps them save the world.

What was the message there and who had what character growth? Was the message Sam has to learn that going to extreme measures to save Dean is very, very bad, but when Dean does it it's okay and Sam should be more forgiving of that, because that's what big brothers do and it's okay for them to do it... because that's pretty much the message I got out of that 4 year character arc. And if I had happened not to get that message: show God told me that's what it was when he said that this was all Sam's fault and that the world would have been just fine with Dean's choices if not for Sam's bad ones.

So I'm still somewhat confused about what Carver's 4-year character arc was supposed to be, but maybe it's just me and I'm dense. I only saw minimal growth for Sam - forced on him after almost ruining his characterization - and nothing really changing much for Dean. He still has the same self esteem issues, and I'm still not sure that Dean wouldn't do anything he had to to save Sam if it came to that, and if he did - nothing much would happen.

[Aeryn13]

Well, Dabb seems to "fixing" that in that Dean, on top of being a weak, bully-ish, stupid monster is solely responsible now for the evil that is Michael while Sam is the greatest leader to ever lived to a bunch of adoring flunkies after only three weeks and scares demons so much, they flee in terror from him.      

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Unpopular Opinions" thread just to be safe:

I guess I can sort of see this except that the brothers were partially on their way there already and, for me, didn't need to be dragged backwards and do sometimes horrible - and for me out of character - things to get there. And the writers for me weren't even taking that character growth seriously, so why should I?

How did Sam's "inner turmoil" translate to leaving Kevin to Crowley's devices? Even with Sam's aloofness that seems somewhat extreme... and instead of addressing that as a character flaw to be improved upon and ultimately have Sam learn and grow, it was turned into a joke. Both Sam's questionable behavior with Kevin and Sam's not looking for Dean was treated as a joke with humorous jabs ("Eeeeeat me" and "Sam hit a dog"). Why am I supposed to take any character growth seriously when the writers don't even seem to be taking it seriously?

And other fairly callous behavior by Sam - and Dean was also played for laughs. The "Kevin realizes it's not really Sam and Dean, because they were actually decent to him" scene is a great example. Was I supposed to find it humorous that Sam and Dean have been treating Kevin callously and only as a source of information to get the trials done? Because I certainly didn't find that characterization of them funny, and it wasn't really addressed directly as a plot point or "character growth" for Sam or Dean, so what was Carver and the writers trying to tell me with all of that?

For me, I mainly only found (some of) Carver's 4-year character dynamic "successful," because it ultimately brought Sam pretty much similar to where he was in season 7 - wanting to hunt and wanting to make a difference and appreciating what Dean had done for him. However, I didn't find it successful for Dean. In my opinion, Carver stunted Dean's potential for growth, starting with ignoring the potential growth that could have come from purgatory and then by justifying almost all Dean's extreme behaviors to save Sam... any message of "the extremes Dean went to were wrong" were lost when there weren't really any bad repercussions for what Dean did - not only did Gadreel help them save the world, so good thing Dean lied all of that time to keep Gadreel in Sam, but even Kevin dying had good consequences: good thing Kevin was a ghost or his mother would have died. Dean killing Death to save Sam and there being no bad consequences whatsoever - and actually some good ones - was just the icing on that confusing cake. If I was supposed to get the message that Dean going to extremes to save Sam is bad... Carver entirely missed the mark, and almost deliberately seemed to be undermining that message. In the end in season 9, Sam was the one who looked badly for not forgiving Dean earlier, so that season may have tackled "extremes Dean would go to for Sam," but it seemed to conclude that it was just fine: with Gadreel redeemed, Kevin helping his mother and ultimately a happy ending. Dean turning into a demon was due to something else not directly related to Dean going to extremes to save Sam, so that doesn't count as a cautionary tale on that front.

So even though season 10 did tackle the extremes Sam would go to to save Dean, the message was uneven. In Sam's case, he literally caused an apocalypse. And for me, it's hard to believe that was an accident. First there was the Kevin/Charlie contrast.  Compare Kevin who saved his mom and got back with her and then ultimately got his eternal rest in heaven to dead Charlie who got nothing but ugly death. What is the message there? Then there are the consequences for Dean's extreme actions versus Sam's. Dean's ultimately lead to helping stop the apocalypse - because Gadreel was redeemed and helped make Castiel's escape possible - while Sam's caused an apocalypse.

And I might think that okay now we have the evolving message that going to extremes to save each other is questionable being the same for both Sam and Dean, if not for the fact that in the exact same episode Sam going to his extremes to save Dean comes to head and causes an apocalypse... Dean goes to extremes - again - to save Sam and kills freakin' Death himself... and nothing bad happens because of that. At all. In fact later good things ultimately happen again and New Death helps them save the world.

What was the message there and who had what character growth? Was the message Sam has to learn that going to extreme measures to save Dean is very, very bad, but when Dean does it it's okay and Sam should be more forgiving of that, because that's what big brothers do and it's okay for them to do it... because that's pretty much the message I got out of that 4 year character arc. And if I had happened not to get that message: show God told me that's what it was when he said that this was all Sam's fault and that the world would have been just fine with Dean's choices if not for Sam's bad ones.

So I'm still somewhat confused about what Carver's 4-year character arc was supposed to be, but maybe it's just me and I'm dense. I only saw minimal growth for Sam - forced on him after almost ruining his characterization - and nothing really changing much for Dean. He still has the same self esteem issues, and I'm still not sure that Dean wouldn't do anything he had to to save Sam if it came to that, and if he did - nothing much would happen.

I didn’t say he did it well......

 

But seriously, I think Carver DID damage Sam more than Dean with his ‘break and reassemble’ plot.   I don’t think it’s out of character dislike, I just think he wasn’t as careful with both characters as he needed to be. I found Carver more arrogant than Gamble and Dabb.  Like, his vision was more important than audience feedback.  JMO

[devlin]

I can’t enjoy any of the brotherly banter between the boys anymore like the stuff with the beard. I find it so superficial especially when the rest of the time I am being shown a sam who refuses to take his brother’s side, stand up for him or even support him 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I found Carver more arrogant than Gamble and Dabb.  Like, his vision was more important than audience feedback.  JMO

Dabb et all are trying to pander to literally ever faction of fandom and none of it is cohesive and it's often contradictory and not in an interesting purposeful way.  He appeases bronlies who hate Cas, by having Cas do nothing. look foolish, and be away from the brothers for no good reason. And that is often at expense of the relationship between Dean and Cas, and yet he allows scenes where Dean and Cas have long looks at one another with swelling music after long separations juxtaposed with romantic moments between other characters in the show which teases Destiel yet it won't ever be openly textually canon (and no I don't think they are queerbaiting. They are Destiel baiting. He offers up the Dean fans that liked the Michael vessel thing by giving it to us for a hot minute....and the puts it to the side to appease the pissed off WS crowd.  

I would prefer a writer/showrunner like Carver who at least mostly stuck to his vision even if I didn't like all of it. I never thought he was trying pandering to any faction other than with Fan Fiction which was really Robbie Thompson script and maybe the Chuck as God crowd but that was s11 and I think he had mostly checked out by the time that episode came about.  JMHO.  YMMV

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

@ILoveReading

DEAN, thought he was a dick.  And Jody and Sam were just worried IMO. 

So I disagree that Berens or Sam and Jody think he’s a dick. 

Sam or Jody,  possibly. But Berens wrote the words for Dean to say, too. And wrote the Kaia taunting, calling out Dean's faults and traits, perceived or real. It's become a pattern, not an anomaly. 

[devlin]

I am so disappointed in an episode where dean finally returns having been possessed as a way to save the world from lucifer( who had just stolen nephilim powers from his son, making him extremely powerful). No one (apart from Jody) seemed overwhelmingly happy to see him or even thought to thank him. He arrives home traumatised only to find his safe place overrun by strangers. He is cast into the role of the horrible dick coz he told the horrible man baby he couldn’t come with, complete with disapproving looks from those that allegedly care about him.( yet last episode when it said that dean didn’t matter nothing came of it and it was left to stand) His entire character is trashed by the latest sparkly Mary Sue with no one bothering to come to his defense. He pours out his heart to sam and gets nothing in return and then to really rub salt into the wound, the episode ends focussed on the horrible man baby’s trauma.

[ILoveReading]

I think Berens has more disdain for Dean/Jensen than Dabb does. 

Dabb ignores Dean but Berens seems to go out of his way to denigrate him.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Berens has more disdain for Dean/Jensen than Dabb does. 

Dabb ignores Dean but Berens seems to go out of his way to denigrate him.

IA.

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Like, his vision was more important than audience feedback.  JMO

Giving too much weight to "audience feedback" can be a real problem also, IMO-and as we're seeing very clearly this season-again IMO.

Professional televison writers should be most interested in the quality of the finished product, IMO-and not in how their pet or favorite character is coming across to any certain segment of fandom or anyone for that matter

IOW, it should be about the story and the storytelling, first and foremost, you fools-and not about your petty and personal vanities at all.

IF you want to call yourselves professional writers, that is. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Berens has more disdain for Dean/Jensen than Dabb does. 

Dabb ignores Dean but Berens seems to go out of his way to denigrate him.

I dunno, Dabb is the one who supposedly runs the show - he could overrule the awful crap, but instead doubles down on it. Maybe they have a friendly competition to see who can screw him over the most in any given episode.

[devlin]

47 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Berens has more disdain for Dean/Jensen than Dabb does. 

Dabb ignores Dean but Berens seems to go out of his way to denigrate him.

I think Jensen has somehow offended him coz berens used to never be this way towards dean and now the nastiness almost seems personal and he is going out of his way to paint dean in the worst light. But that’s just my opinion 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, devlin said:

I think Jensen has somehow offended him coz berens used to never be this way towards dean and now the nastiness almost seems personal and he is going out of his way to paint dean in the worst light. But that’s just my opinion 

I've been saying this for two seasons now  - it's too repetitive and relentless for it to just be coincidence. I honestly believe these men are intimidated by and jealous of Jensen and the only power they have is take it out on the character.

Edited October 28, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[devlin]

I don’t have Twitter but I would love for someone to ask berens what was his intention with the scene between dean and jack. The scene ended with it having a forlorn look on its face as it wandered off to cry and everyone was left glaring daggers at dean. You can’t tell me that was not meant to make dean look like an uncaring asshole/bully. Though the joke’s on berens coz Jensen saved that scene for me and I was squarely on dean’s side

[catrox14]

This is gonna be kind of long, so if you check out I'll not be offended LOL.

According to SuperWiki, these are Berens' and Dabb's eps.

Quote

Writer of:

9.06 Heaven Can't Wait

9.14 Captives

9.19 Alex Annie Alexis Ann

10.07 Girls, Girls, Girls

10.14 The Executioner's Song

10.19 The Werther Project

11.06 Our Little World

11.14 The Vessel

11.17 Red Meat with Andrew Dabb

11.22 We Happy Few

12.03 The Foundry

12.07 Rock Never Dies

12.14 The Raid

12.19 The Future with Meredith Glynn

12.22 Who We Are

13.03 Patience

13.09 The Bad Place

13.10 Wayward Sisters with Andrew Dabb

13.21 Beat the Devil

14.03 The Scar

Quote

Writer of

4.06 Yellow Fever with Daniel Loflin

4.13 After School Special with Daniel Loflin

4.19 Jump the Shark with Daniel Loflin

5.06 I Believe the Children Are Our Future with Daniel Loflin

5.11 Sam, Interrupted with Daniel Loflin

5.16 Dark Side of the Moon with Daniel Loflin

5.19 Hammer of the Gods with Daniel Loflin

6.04 Weekend at Bobby's with Daniel Loflin

6.07 Family Matters with Daniel Loflin

6.13 Unforgiven with Daniel Loflin

6.18 Frontierland with Daniel Loflin and Jackson Stewart (story)

7.03 The Girl Next Door with Daniel Loflin

7.08 Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! with Daniel Loflin

7.14 Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie with Daniel Loflin

7.22 There Will Be Blood with Daniel Loflin

8.02 What's Up, Tiger Mommy? with Daniel Loflin

8.08 Hunteri Heroici

8.14 Trial and Error

8.22 Clip Show

9.02 Devil May Care

9.10 Road Trip

9.20 Bloodlines

9.22 Stairway to Heaven

10.02 Reichenbach

10.09 The Things We Left Behind

10.17 Inside Man

10.22 The Prisoner

11.02 Form and Void

11.10 The Devil in the Details

11.15 Beyond the Mat with John Bring

11.17 Red Meat with Robert Berens

11.23 Alpha and Omega

12.01 Keep Calm and Carry On

12.09 First Blood

12.23 All Along the Watchtower

13.01 Lost and Found

13.10 Wayward Sisters with Robert Berens

13.15 A Most Holy Man with Robert Singer

13.23 Let the Good Times Roll

14.01 Stranger in a Strange Land

As much as Berens scripts annoy me, I see a change in his writing of Dean after Carver left so I come back to Dabb being the problem with Dean since Carver left.  ( I've also included Dabb's penned eps for comparison to when he was under another showrunners (head writer's) leadership). 

I'll start with Dabb. If you look at many of Dabb's eps, even with Daniel Loflin, IMO he couldn't resist painting Dean as a bully as far back as s4, and I think much of that was done to  bolster his view of SuperSam. I think Kripke balanced that out with other writers( like Ben Edlund) take on Dean that gave more nuance and depth to what was going on with Dean and certainly more than a mean old bully and dick so it wasn't as completely obvious as it has became with Dabb taking over as showrunner.

In s10, Dabb wrote Riechenbach & The Prisoner, which were both Dean centric but focused on a scary, violent  Dark Dean, however, IMO Carver had influence over what was going to happen with Dean and I believe despite Demon!Dean and my apoplectic reaction to that, upon more consideration of Carver's era, I do not think he was intending to assassinate either brother but to re work their relationship and have some drama as well as expand Cas and Crowley's roles.  And give Jensen something more than being Sam's guilty cheerleader. 

Now, looking at Berens, who came aboard in s9, he wrote 3 eps starting with the Castiel centric "Heaven Can Wait". IMO he really teased Destiel with the reunion scene with Dean and Cas with a romantic bent, and my Destiel shipper heart loved it and also kind of resents it to the extent that it will never be textually canon but IMO he knows exactly what he's doing there.  No way he didn't. 

He wrote Captives which was IMO fairly well balanced but he wrote a scene with Dean talking to a damn coffee maker. I think he thought it was funny.  Next we have Alex, Alexis, Annie, Anne and that was IMO his start to get Jody into her own show with Wayward Sisters.  That was definitely not  Dean positive and featured Sam pearl clutching over Dean chopping off a vampire's head with brute strength (even though Sam did the same thing to Gordon in s2...). And TBF, Dean had the Mark of Cain and IMO that was important to that arc. It didn't strike me as total character assassination of Dean once I viewed all of s9 and s10.

In s10, Berens has Executioner's Song &  Werther Project. The former allowed Dean at least to kill Cain. And again he teases Destiel with a cut scene of Crowley and Cas arguing about who was Dean's boyfriend.  But I thought it was a great episode with great dialogue and great acting and not a ton of Dean character assassination given Dean a big win. I also thought the Werther Project was pretty good other than Dean having Faux!Benny trying to get Dean to kill himself...but Dean dug his way out of that and helped save Sam.  No big complaints Dean wise on that one. On to s11.

I'll never be convinced that Dabb wasn't the de facto showrunner from the beginning of s11. I hold that opinion because I see his influence with propping Sam and devaluing Dean and IMO that was reflected in Berens writing as well. 

I'll start with Our Little World which was AWFUL for Dean. He is being thrown around by a teenager who was being creepy with him and with whom Dean had no agency really. I just hate that episode so much. Next is the The Vessel in which Dean was basically a witness but not denigrated. That was mostly about Casifer fooling Dean and Sam.  And then it's the godawful Red Meat; And then the terribad We Happy Few which was a general mess not specifically a mess for Dean. 

S12 has The Foundry which is about Mary more than anything and her deserting her sons again but it's framed that they just don't understand her needs; Rock Never Dies which was Lucifer and Sam propping with Dean being chastised for telling Sam to not be so hard on himself about Lucifer's actions...which what? ; The Future which was not awful for Dean but awful for Cas; The Raid, which started out pretty great for Dean with him pushing back on Mary about him never being a kid ....and then totally undermined Dean's position by the end. Berens s12 eps culminate  with Who We Are which IMO was the Sam show and only afforded Jensen a big emotional scene with some great ACKTING. 

S13 well, I've discussed those eps ad nauseum.

To me this all comes back to Dabb who is the official showrunner and head writer. It's his vision that is being implemented and that's shown in the change in Berens writing and Dean is IMO being destroyed by Dabb who started it in s4. 

But that's just me. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He wrote Captives which was IMO fairly well balanced but he wrote a scene with Dean talking to a damn coffee maker. I think he thought it was funny.

It was kind of funny. Besides wasn't Kevin possessing the coffee maker? Dean was able to have an open mind about that. It was also maybe sort of a throwback to Dean talking to Castiel in heaven through the television and the car radio.

"Captives" was also, in my opinion, an important Dean-positive episode for that season. It set up that Kevin being dead, while sad, also had a positive outcome in that Kevin was able to save his mother... something he wouldn't have been able to do if he'd still been alive. Kevin then got to be reunited with his mother for a while. This helped to soften the blow of Kevin getting killed by Gadreel.

I wish Sam could have gotten a similar episode softening the blow of Charlie, but no dice.

[BabySpinach]

Remember back in the season 13 finale when Dean shot Jack several times and bluntly told him he was acting like a psycho? It wasn't framed in a negative light, and Dean came off as very practical and smart on his feet rather than some big ol' meanie-pants.

But now, he just needs to call Jack small and unable to fight and we get Sam and Cas glaring at him while Nougat Sue slouches off to mope. Then Dean calls himself a dick. Just four episodes, and such a huge difference in framing. Jack had already been consistently coddled in season 13, but now his entourage of perpetually supportive babysitters have cranked it up to 11, just because he's *GASP* a regular human now! Boohoo.

Dean didn't get the memo (because he was busy suffering possession by a literal archangel) and stayed his typical straightforward self, but I guess it's now a capital crime to not dance around the truth for the sake of a self-pitying "Dean doesn't matter" manchild's delicate feelings. What a thin-skinned wimp, and what a thin-skinned writer for narratively siding with him.

[mertensia]

Why was it wrong for Dean to be blunt? Sure, he felt bad for hurting Jack's feelings, but he was also just getting over being ridden by Michael. Bluntness, in my view, is to be expected. It's not him being a dick. It's exactly like when you were a kid and gave your mother a huge fright by accident and after you're safe she grabs you by your arms and yells at you to never scare her again. 

[Reganne]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I wish Sam could have gotten a similar episode softening the blow of Charlie, but no dice.

I agree.  For one thing, Charlie herself played a big part in her own death.  Sam had her in a safe environment.  She herself decided to leave that environment when the Steins were looking for her.  Then she goes and sits in front of a window so they could easily find her.  It was ridiculous.  Then it is said that Sam should be the one dead instead of Charlie and that's it.  It's never brought up again.  There's no resolution or softening of it "being Sam's fault" or anything.

[Aeryn13]

Well, in terms of Dean-hating/diminishing, Sam-worshipping year, Season 14 is off to a great start if that is one's jam. 

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'll never be convinced that Dabb wasn't the de facto showrunner from the beginning of s11. I hold that opinion because I see his influence with propping Sam and devaluing Dean and IMO that was reflected in Berens writing as well. 

I'll start with Our Little World which was AWFUL for Dean. He is being thrown around by a teenager who was being creepy with him and with whom Dean had no agency really. I just hate that episode so much. Next is the The Vessel in which Dean was basically a witness but not denigrated. That was mostly about Casifer fooling Dean and Sam.  And then it's the godawful Red Meat; And then the terribad We Happy Few which was a general mess not specifically a mess for Dean. 

S12 has The Foundry which is about Mary more than anything and her deserting her sons again but it's framed that they just don't understand her needs; Rock Never Dies which was Lucifer and Sam propping with Dean being chastised for telling Sam to not be so hard on himself about Lucifer's actions...which what? ; The Future which was not awful for Dean but awful for Cas; The Raid, which started out pretty great for Dean with him pushing back on Mary about him never being a kid ....and then totally undermined Dean's position by the end. Berens s12 eps culminate  with Who We Are which IMO was the Sam show and only afforded Jensen a big emotional scene with some great ACKTING. 

S13 well, I've discussed those eps ad nauseum.

To me this all comes back to Dabb who is the official showrunner and head writer. It's his vision that is being implemented and that's shown in the change in Berens writing and Dean is IMO being destroyed by Dabb who started it in s4. 

But that's just me. 

Yes, yes, YES! Thank you, I too have believed since 11:02 that Dabb and Singer were in charge - unofficially, sure, until it was made "official" later in the season. There's no doubt in my mind that Carver turned in his premiere script over the summer hiatus, probably gave them some direction as to where he wanted the story to go in season 11, and he walked across the hall to work on his new CW show. And when that happened, I also fully believe Dabb changed the narrative with episode 2 away from Carver's plan because he could, because he was "unofficially" in charge. I'll always wonder what Carver really had mind for the Amara story, because I don't believe for a hot second that it was what happened, and more importantly didn't happen, in season 11.

I also saw the radical devolution in Berens' writing immediately under Dabb as opposed to Carver, so much so that I also wondered if Carver didn't judiciously edit or rewrite his scripts before that. Though I think it's simply more likely Berens takes his cue from whoever is in charge, and with Dabb in charge, it's all hate-Dean-dump-on-Dean all the time from then on - when he bothers to include Dean at all.

Of course, now Berens only really wants to write Waywardnatural, encouraged by Dabb who wants that too, and from what I understand Berens is only writing Waywardnatural scripts this season. Definitely his script coming up is another Waywardnatural episode.

Edited October 28, 2018 by PAForrest

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I agree.  For one thing, Charlie herself played a big part in her own death.  Sam had her in a safe environment.  She herself decided to leave that environment when the Steins were looking for her.  Then she goes and sits in front of a window so they could easily find her.  It was ridiculous.  Then it is said that Sam should be the one dead instead of Charlie and that's it.  It's never brought up again.  There's no resolution or softening of it "being Sam's fault" or anything.

I would posit that it so clearly being shown how Charlie's death was her own fault mitigates the writing, while Kevin was 100% innocent. 

That said, just because this thread is poorly named doesn't mean every complaint is about one brother versus the other. Sometimes, it's just about Desn (or Sam for that matter) and the fact the same thing may have happened to the other seasons before doesn't make it any less painful or frustrating, nor does it excuse it.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I'll always wonder what Carver really had mind for the Amara story, because I don't believe for a hot second that it was what happened, and more importantly didn't happen, in season 11.

What, you didn't think, when Death spoke about evil such as the world has never known, the earth trembled and black smoke poured from the ground, that it would be Chuck's misunderstood  little sister, who really just wanted to be loved?

The premiere episodes of Soapernatural, The Dabb Years.

Edited October 28, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
because ever and never? not the same.

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Remember back in the season 13 finale when Dean shot Jack several times and bluntly told him he was acting like a psycho? It wasn't framed in a negative light, and Dean came off as very practical and smart on his feet rather than some big ol' meanie-pants.

But now, he just needs to call Jack small and unable to fight and we get Sam and Cas glaring at him while Nougat Sue slouches off to mope. Then Dean calls himself a dick. Just four episodes, and such a huge difference in framing. Jack had already been consistently coddled in season 13, but now his entourage of perpetually supportive babysitters have cranked it up to 11, just because he's *GASP* a regular human now! Boohoo.

Dean didn't get the memo (because he was busy suffering possession by a literal archangel) and stayed his typical straightforward self, but I guess it's now a capital crime to not dance around the truth for the sake of a self-pitying "Dean doesn't matter" manchild's delicate feelings. What a thin-skinned wimp, and what a thin-skinned writer for narratively siding with him.

I LOVED that scene where Dean shot Jack and told him he was acting like a psycho! It was clever and funny, especially when Jack squawked indignantly, "You SHOT me!!" Hee! And you are absolutely right, it did not frame Dean negatively. Not at all. For all the blather from a certain writer about "authorial intent", if the writer is competent, it is almost always perfectly clear how the narrative wants us to view a character. Yeah, we got your number, Berens.

If that scene had happened now, Jack would have just stood there all sad-faced, with the tears starting to well out of his eyes. And Cas and Sam would have rushed forward to comfort him, telling him he was a good boy and that they were proud of him and that everything was going to be okay -- all the while shooting poisonous glances back at Dean.

It all reminds me of that scene in "Tall Tales", where Sam is talking to the college kid, and (in Dean's re-telling) hugs the kid with a lugubrious expression and gets all choked up while assuring him that he is a "brave little soldier" and "too precious for this world". Something that the show used to be clever enough to make fun of, is now the same thing that they want us to take seriously.

(Who wrote "Tall Tales"? Was it John Shiban? Now there is a writer that I wish we still had!)

[ILoveReading]

Its a small consolation but Dean teasing Sam about his beard got quote of the week over Beren's little Sue.  Looks like that oxygen sucker got in the way again

Edited October 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Remember back in the season 13 finale when Dean shot Jack several times and bluntly told him he was acting like a psycho? It wasn't framed in a negative light, and Dean came off as very practical and smart on his feet rather than some big ol' meanie-pants.

But now, he just needs to call Jack small and unable to fight and we get Sam and Cas glaring at him while Nougat Sue slouches off to mope. Then Dean calls himself a dick. Just four episodes, and such a huge difference in framing. Jack had already been consistently coddled in season 13, but now his entourage of perpetually supportive babysitters have cranked it up to 11, just because he's *GASP* a regular human now! Boohoo.

Dean didn't get the memo (because he was busy suffering possession by a literal archangel) and stayed his typical straightforward self, but I guess it's now a capital crime to not dance around the truth for the sake of a self-pitying "Dean doesn't matter" manchild's delicate feelings. What a thin-skinned wimp, and what a thin-skinned writer for narratively siding with him.

That was such a ridiculous scene. There was nothing wrong with what Dean said and no reason for Sam and Cas to react the way that they did.

Edited October 28, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Aeryn13]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its a small consolation but Dean teasing Sam about his beard got quote of the week over Beren's little Sue.  Looks like that oxygen sucker got in the way again

Well, spart from her rampant Dean-hate, it's not like she had any noteworthy dialogue, it was all about her ridiculous "look at me, I'm so cool" posing. She is supposed to be a badass in the same vein the Ice Queen is.

Speaking of, no scene of her even slightly interested in returned Dean, huh? Even that faker Jack who last week happily proclaimed how Dean doesn't matter pretended he was excited to have him back. 

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would posit that it so clearly being shown how Charlie's death was her own fault mitigates the writing, while Kevin was 100% innocent. 

That said, just because this thread is poorly named doesn't mean every complaint is about one brother versus the other. Sometimes, it's just about Desn (or Sam for that matter) and the fact the same thing may have happened to the other seasons before doesn't make it any less painful or frustrating, nor does it excuse it.

While this is true, showing that it happens to other characters too paints a picture that it is not just something that happens to Dean's character.  That is why I dont agree with a narrative that a circumstance like that being written about Dean is an attempt to sabatosh his character... since the writing does that with other characters as well.

  I think this is why some people bring up the fact that these situations happen to other characters as well.  Also when a situation is brought up about Dean, it reminds us of what happens to other characters like Sam as well.  Then we add that to the discussion.  If someone wants to talk solely about Dean, there is another thread for that.

[ILoveReading]

Thinking about the end scene, I don't think it would bother too much if it wasn't the norm rather than the exception.  Usually when Dean opens up and pours his heart you rarely does the show write supportive dialogue.  Dean's hell confession, the Love Hurts confession*, confessing he felt guilty about John's death.    Sam usually sits there in Silence.

*Love Hurts- This is one can fall either way depending on how you view it.  Sam gave some platitudes but in the end, he never really contradicts Dean's believes that he's not strong enough.  Making me wonder if he agrees.

 

Spoiler

There a reference to someone dying under Sam's command.  This may or may not be a spoiler.  It strongly suggested it was.  Given the synopsis of episode 5, I suspect it will end up happening.  I would bet all my money that no one will give Sam "silent support." I expect Dean will be the first to give a pep talk, followed by NotBobby and Mary and probably the AU hunters will say they dont' blame Sam and that's the job and they fully support their chief and will follow him to the ends of the earth and back. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by ILoveReading