DeeDee79 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't see how these two things relate at all. For me the writers in season 8 had an entirely different attitude than they did in season 7. For me, if the writers had thought Sam acting like a jerk in season 8 was "necessary," then Benny would actually have been shown in some way to be dangerous - or even the least bit threatening - rather than entirely benign. I feel that they relate in the sense that when something happens to Dean and Sam is the instigator of the event then it's automatically ok in fandoms eyes because that was how the narrative played out. Whereas whenever Sam is shown in a bad light it's throwing him under bus instead of the narrative stating that Sam is just a jerk. Just a convenient way for fandom to show Sam empathy while not caring about showing Dean the same courtesy. Also, Benny is not the only benign monster that's been introduced. The dislike of his character seems to be based on resentment that he looked better than Sam rather than the fact that he was supposed to be dangerous IMO. Agree to disagree with you and @companionenvy; I have no interest in speaking about this further. 6 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, companionenvy said: Sam "choked" in the situation with Amy, and Dean "choked" in the situation with Emma. I disagree here because the situations really weren't the same thing. Sam allowed Amy to state her case and he believed her, despite there being enough holes in her story to drive multiple 18 wheelers through. Sam, wanted to believe what Amy was saying and he walked away. Dean had a gun pointed at Emma. He was trying to talk her down and let her know that she really did have a choice. She was hesitant to partake in the rituals so she obviously had doubts. Its impossible to say if Dean would have succeeded, because Sam busting in when and how he did triggered Emma's flight or fight reflex. So I don't think Dean chocked because its like he was taken out before the play was over. 3 hours ago, companionenvy said: Amy needed to die (which I disagree with, The Amy situation reminds me of the movie John Q. It's about a guy whose son needs a heart transplant but he doesn't have the right kind of insurance so they won't pay. So he takes matters into his own hands and holds the hospital hostage and forces them at gun point to give the heart to his son. Now, as a viewer I can definitely sympathize with the father but that doesn't make what he did right. He put a lot of people in danger and the person the heart was supposed to go to also had a family that loved him just as much as John Q loved his son. The movies old but I'll spoiler tag the ending just in case. Spoiler In the end the father is arrested and sent to jail. So he wasn't let off scott free just because he had a sympathetic reason. Dean's criticized for killing Amy because she didn't deserve it because she was just trying to save her child. Okay, I can understand that but at the same time she was committing first degree murder. She chose, stalked, murdered her victims and ate their brains. Just because she was killing victims no one would miss doesn't make it okay. Why does she get a free pass for doing the exact same thing,Dean did? Did she bother to find out the reason behind her victims behavior? What if the drunk driver just found out his son was dying? What if he was a good guy who just did something completely stupid. It happens. What happens if Amy needed a body and there as no "lowlife" around. Would someone who jaywalked or smoked a joint qualify? What gave Amy the right to play Judge, jury and executioner? When Dean said that Amy was who she was, I never thought he meant he was killing her because she was a monster but a mother protecting her child. If it became necessary to kill again to protect her child she would. And it would be necessary if you (general you) looked at her story. If it was just about being a monster, Dean wouldn't have let the kid live. It was about Amy killing. Sam didn't know Amy at all. She was a girl he had a crush on and spent a couple of hours with, then didn't see or hear about for over a decade. He hadn't nothing to base her guarantee on. He was planning to kill her until she told him why she was killing and Sam was okay with her promise she was done. IIRC, the drunk driver got away. When Sam caught up with Amy later she literally had blood on her hands? Who did she kill? Who were the four bodies that alerted Sam? I don't think it said. She told Sam she was working at the morgue for 6 years. If Sam was 14 or 15 at the time, and it had been about 15 or 16 years since he'd seen her this leaves about 6 or 7 years unaccounted for. (I I did the math right). How did she support herself them. Where did she get her brains. Amy was also going one the run at the end of this ep. Which meant no longer working at the morgue. Again where is she going to get brains? She also said her son got sick from eating dead brains and needed fresh ones to get better. The fact that she knew immediately how to treat him strongly suggests this happened in the past. It also guarantees that its going to happen in the future. So I strongly disagree Amy didn't need to die because there is a very high probability that her body count was a lot higher than four and circumstances dictated that it was about to get higher. Just because Amy had a pretty face and a sob story doesn't give her a free pass. Edited June 20, 2018 by ILoveReading 8 Link to comment
Myrelle June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 16 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I don't believe the showrunners that they were going for a nature/nurture debate. It was decided day one, not to mention canon on screen text that if Jack went bad it was Dean's fault not because he was the son of Satan. The writers didn't care about Jack's satan half. I think the true purpose was to make Dean look like the bad guy. And for Sam to be shown as being "right" since it is has been the biggest Sam fan complaint of late on twitter and tumblr. And it fits Dabb's writing/showrunning style to a T, IMO. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: I don't see Sam killing Emma the same way. I agree with AwesomeO that Sam was depicted as sincere in the claim that he acted out of fear for Dean, and did not use Amy as a cruel tit-for-tat justification. IMO, he didn't use Amy as tit for tat in s7 with Emma. He used Amy as tit for tat WRT to Benny. 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: character under the bus by making him uncharacteristically bloodthirsty and suspicious, just as I think both that Dean was dead wrong about Jack in S13 and that the show was throwing him under the bus by regressing him to a reflexive and under the circumstances immature "monsters must die" position he had long outgrown. IMO, the difference is that Dean was in deep, profound grief and it wasn't really character regression at least up to The Big Empty.And that was compounded by Dean having a completely reasonable opinion that the unknown Spawn of Satan might actually be dangerous to the universe and might should be killed. Unfortunately, in The Big Empty, they have an (IMO) awful judgmental shapeshifter grief therapist, debase and deride Dean's legitimate grief. IMO, Dean was written not dissimilar to a parent who's spouse died in childbirth and who "blames" the spouse's death on the child. Add to that, Cas told Dean that Jack showed him Paradise and Dean believed that Cas' death was Jack's fault. Right or wrong that was how Dean felt in the aftermath of Cas' death. 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: Dean doesn't express anger at Sam for doing what he did. Sam is angry that Dean put himself in danger; Sam "choked" in the situation with Amy, and Dean "choked" in the situation with Emma. T IMO, Dean DID show his upset with Sam. Sam told Dean that Emma wasn't his not really. And Dean said, "No, she was ....really" and IMO Jensen's acting conveyed that Dean wasn't happy really about what happened. Dean believed that Emma was his flesh and blood, regardless of whether it was true or not, Dean believed it. Dean was depressed about Emma's death and Sam didn't care. And IMO, Jared's acting didn't not connote any kind of empathy nor sympathy for Dean's loss. He basically decided that Dean was screwed up for thinking Emma was his daughter. And that Dean should have been more grateful. 7 Link to comment
Pondlass1 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 16 hours ago, catrox14 said: think it would have been really interesting if Dean and Sam would have talked about Emma WRT to Jack. This is where the writing falls down every time. This show has a rich history of events they could tap into at any time (huge opportunity missed in terms of the AU SL). So much has happened. But our writers write in isolation, divorced from whatever has gone before. Seasons are mostly islands. If they tapped into what has gone before - the writing could actually flow more and they'd be less likely to trample on established canon. Audiences love a connection to a past event/ character. It brings us in deeper ... o yeah I remember that. But I doubt any one them have watched or remember earlier seasons. I mean, they had Dean - who'd spent 40 years in hell - skipping down those hell steps. It was only Jensen who remembered. But good storytelling be damned. We're dealing with a money making machine here. J2+M are aging. Yes, the fans still scream.... but the CW figured they needed a teen - a male teen. A male teen who's cute and conflicted and supernatural. Enter Jack. Now I guess they can sit back and expect ratings to rise. 16 hours ago, Reganne said: I know that if the situations were reversed and it was Sam's "daughter" trying to kill Sam, Dean would have done the same. But Sam would have got a SL out of it. He's #1 on call sheet. It would've been hissy fits galore. The Amy/Emma storyline is pretty much the same thing - kind of. Amy was a childhood friend (for a couple of weeks), whereas Emma was made up of 50% Dean Winchester. Actual flesh and blood daughter. Amy was killing. Emma not yet. Dean's MO isn't stomping off in a huff . No, he sucks it up and carries on (has a few more beers). His daughter died in front of him, killed by his brother. She could have been redeemed (Ornery Dean DNA flowing through her veins). A big deal surely? But, no. It's forgotten the second the end-titles roll. In fact, Dean has no time to mourn, he gets a truckload of guilt dumped on him in the very next episode( the awful Defending Your Life). 4 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said: But, no. It's forgotten the second the end-titles roll. In fact, Dean has no time to mourn, he gets a truckload of guilt dumped on him in the very next episode( the awful Defending Your Life). This ep seems to have been written for the sole purpose of letting Sam play lawyer rather than truly exploring Dean's guilt. I disliked Sam once again putting the blame for things on Dean. No, Sam it wasn't "complicated." The yellow eyed demon was stalking him and had his friends possessed. Jessica was dead the minute she went out with Sam. Dean showing up didn't change this. 3 Link to comment
BlueSapphire June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 Quote 1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said: This is where the writing falls down every time. This show has a rich history of events they could tap into at any time (huge opportunity missed in terms of the AU SL). So much has happened. But our writers write in isolation, divorced from whatever has gone before. Seasons are mostly islands. If they tapped into what has gone before - the writing could actually flow more and they'd be less likely to trample on established canon. Audiences love a connection to a past event/ character. It brings us in deeper ... o yeah I remember that. But I doubt any one them have watched or remember earlier seasons. I mean, they had Dean - who'd spent 40 years in hell - skipping down those hell steps. It was only Jensen who remembered. But good storytelling be damned. We're dealing with a money making machine here. J2+M are aging. Yes, the fans still scream.... but the CW figured they needed a teen - a male teen. A male teen who's cute and conflicted and supernatural. Enter Jack. Now I guess they can sit back and expect ratings to rise. But Sam would have got a SL out of it. He's #1 on call sheet. It would've been hissy fits galore. The Amy/Emma storyline is pretty much the same thing - kind of. Amy was a childhood friend (for a couple of weeks), whereas Emma was made up of 50% Dean Winchester. Actual flesh and blood daughter. Amy was killing. Emma not yet. Dean's MO isn't stomping off in a huff . No, he sucks it up and carries on (has a few more beers). His daughter died in front of him, killed by his brother. She could have been redeemed (Ornery Dean DNA flowing through her veins). A big deal surely? But, no. It's forgotten the second the end-titles roll. In fact, Dean has no time to mourn, he gets a truckload of guilt dumped on him in the very next episode( the awful Defending Your Life). Hissy fits by who? And I'm confused because "Defending Your Life" came way before "The Slice Girls," so Dean wouldn't have been mourning anything in that episode. Link to comment
Reganne June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 As far as how things look in fandoms eyes, I think that it could really go either way depending on who is the persons favourite character. It doesn't really represent the entire fandom. Just like Sam fans feel his character was thrown under the bus in season 8, Dean fans think Dean was being thrown under the bus at the beginning of season 13 and how he dealt with Jack, yet they also don't afford Sam the same empathy as they do Dean. It's not really something that only Sam fans do. As far as the dislike for Benny's character, that could also be compared to the dislike of Jack's character that some Dean fans have for him. I think some Dean fans dont like him because the narrative used Jack to make Dean look bad at the beginning of season 13. I know that the way the narrative portrayed Benny in comparison to Sam is the biggest reason I don't like the character. I admit that. As well as the fact that I dont find him that interesting. I would have been indifferent to him though had the show not made it out to be how great Benny was and how terrible Sam was. 2 Link to comment
Reganne June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said: 2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said: But Sam would have got a SL out of it. He's #1 on call sheet. It would've been hissy fits galore. The Amy/Emma storyline is pretty much the same thing - kind of. Amy was a childhood friend (for a couple of weeks), whereas Emma was made up of 50% Dean Winchester. Actual flesh and blood daughter. Amy was killing. Emma not yet. Dean's MO isn't stomping off in a huff . No, he sucks it up and carries on (has a few more beers). His daughter died in front of him, killed by his brother. She could have been redeemed (Ornery Dean DNA flowing through her veins). A big deal surely? But, no. It's forgotten the second the end-titles roll. In fact, Dean has no time to mourn, he gets a truckload of guilt dumped on him in the very next episode( the awful Defending Your Life). The difference with the Amy situation is that Dean purposely went behind Sam's back and killed Amy. Then he kept that information from Sam. Dean does get mad at Sam when he does things like that. And it's not like Sam got a huge storyline out of Amy. He got to be mad about it for a bit. Edited June 20, 2018 by Reganne 1 Link to comment
Lemuria June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 43 minutes ago, Reganne said: The difference with the Amy situation is that Dean purposely went behind Sam's back and killed Amy. Then he kept that information from Sam. Dean does get mad at Sam when he does things like that. And it's not like Sam got a huge storyline out of Amy. He got to be mad about it for a bit. And Sam kept Amy and her murder spree a secret from Dean. He slipped out like a thief in the night, taking the car and leaving behind his physically incapacitated brother even though he knew the Leviathans were hunting for them. (Fortunately for Dean, he is such a badass that he could cut his hard cast off himself and then run around on his broken leg with panache--oh, who are we kidding? Fortunately for Dean, this is Supernatural where the writers needed Dean to run around on his broken leg with panache and couldn't think of a non-stupid way to do it.) I have to admit I also got a tit-for-tat vibe from that final conversation in the car. I did like that Dean held his ground: when he said that he was not about to stand there a let her kill him and Sam responded with, "Do you think I'm stupid?" I was glad that Dean turned the question back onto Sam. Dean's behavior was actually consistent with the Amy episode: he let Amy's son go because he hadn't killed anyone as yet, and here he was trying to convince Emma she could walk away from this because she hadn't killed anyone as yet. 6 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: IMO, Dean DID show his upset with Sam. Sam told Dean that Emma wasn't his not really. And Dean said, "No, she was ....really" and IMO Jensen's acting conveyed that Dean wasn't happy really about what happened. Dean believed that Emma was his flesh and blood, regardless of whether it was true or not, Dean believed it. Dean was depressed about Emma's death and Sam didn't care. And IMO, Jared's acting didn't not connote any kind of empathy nor sympathy for Dean's loss. He basically decided that Dean was screwed up for thinking Emma was his daughter. And that Dean should have been more grateful. I'm in agreement with all this, except maybe Dean being depressed about Emma. They didn't allow enough time in the episode for that, and it's never been mentioned again. But I defy anyone to watch this scene (at least from about 1:55) and tell me Jensen didn't play Dean as caring about Emma and being hurt over her death. And also watch Jared's facial expressions. IMO there was no fear for/relief over Dean being safe in that delivery. At all. As for Emma manipulating them - she certainly was trying it with Dean, but who knows if he would have been able to talk her down - he's always been persuasive and good with young people. As for Sam, there was no time for her to manipulate him in the mere seconds between her turning to Dean to help and back to him, before he shot her dead. 3 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: IMO, he didn't use Amy as tit for tat in s7 with Emma. He used Amy as tit for tat WRT to Benny. Yes, which is one of the main reasons that I contend the Benny storyline was used to foster a changing attitude of "the monsters aren't really the monsters" and throw Sam under the bus. An issue that had been discussed and agreed upon between Sam and Dean and where Sam's attitude had been settled as agreeing with Dean and forgiving Dean for lying because Sam now understood why Dean had (supposedly)*** done it (an entire episode - "The Mentalists" - was devoted to this) and which had been a consistent Sam character trait within season 6 and 7 - Sam didn't just forgive Dean, but Castiel as well - was suddenly thrown out the window and Sam is now holding a grudge and expressing a tit for tat mentality. Which - in my opinion - Sam hadn't done before or at the very least, depending on interpretation, not since season 6.5 through 7. And, in my opinion, this was done for little other reason than to ignore any Sam character growth from season 7 and to instead make Sam look badly and Benny better by comparison. *** I say supposedly, because Dean's explanation was kinda weak, so Sam was being forgiving for accepting it. 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: Dean was depressed about Emma's death and Sam didn't care. And IMO, Jared's acting didn't not connote any kind of empathy nor sympathy for Dean's loss. He basically decided that Dean was screwed up for thinking Emma was his daughter. And that Dean should have been more grateful. I don't necessarily agree with this entirely, because I thought Sam had been trying to soften the blow by saying that Emma wasn't really part of Dean, but I agree that Sam was a bit tone deaf to what Dean was feeling... I also think this was consistent with the narrative intent at the time, because it mirrored Dean's tone-deafness when it came to Sam's hurt concerning Amy. According to Dean, Amy was just some girl Sam knew for a little while, but to Sam, Amy was a young girl who killed her own mother, dooming herself to an uncertain future, in order to save him. On top of that Sam likely had guilt for not being brave enough to leave his own family situation to join Amy, thereby ensuring that Amy's sacrifice was even bigger. Dean didn't really show any sympathy for how Sam was feeling where Amy was concerned either, because Dean didn't really understand. Dean also thought that Sam should have been grateful - instead of acting like a bitch - that Dean had killed Amy and Sam didn't have to. Sam ended up agreeing with Dean... which is why he likely thought his killing of Emma was doing the same thing for Dean - helping him and saving him from the emotional responsibility. And like Dean, he didn't entirely understand the emotional cost for Dean, because as far as Sam knew, Dean didn't really know Emma. So I think in both cases, the narrative was fairly consistent. The brother doing the killing was being shown as doing the right thing and as doing the other brother a favor. 6 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Its impossible to say if Dean would have succeeded, because Sam busting in when and how he did triggered Emma's flight or fight reflex. So I don't think Dean chocked because its like he was taken out before the play was over. Dean had already decided that he would let Emma go, even though he would have no guarantee that she would go straight. He said he wouldn't follow her, so how would he know what she would do in the future? It looked to me that Dean's feelings of considering himself to be Emma's father were (understandably) clouding his judgement about the situation. That Emma had a fight or flight reflex wasn't going to change in the future if she had been let go. What potential deaths would she have justified because she had just been defending herself? Sam busted in because he heard Emma say that someone had to die and then heard her reject Dean's offer to be let go. Maybe Sam jumped the gun by not waiting for Emma to follow through, but he knew Dean was in a vulnerable emotional position, so he decided in that moment to go ahead and act. 40 minutes ago, Lemuria said: And Sam kept Amy and her murder spree a secret from Dean. He slipped out like a thief in the night, taking the car and leaving behind his physically incapacitated brother even though he knew the Leviathans were hunting for them. Sam wasn't sure at that point that it was Amy. He was going to check, and he left Dean a note. Sam didn't involve Dean, because Sam considered it his unfinished business... and what was he going to do: take a Dean with a cast into a potential monster hunt situation? Let the monster - Whether Amy or another of her kind - continue to kill people? 40 minutes ago, Lemuria said: I did like that Dean held his ground: when he said that he was not about to stand there a let her kill him and Sam responded with, "Do you think I'm stupid?" I was glad that Dean turned the question back onto Sam. That's not actually what Dean was denying. Sam said "Do you think I'm an idiot?" because Dean insisted that he was going to kill Emma - which in my opinion was a lie or at the very least contradicted what Dean had said and what Sam had heard. Dean then seemed to lie again when he said that he wasn't going to let Emma walk... which says to me that Sam had been correct that Dean's emotions had been (understandably) clouding his judgement. 29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: And also watch Jared's facial expressions. IMO there was no fear for/relief over Dean being safe in that delivery. At all. When Emma first turned to Sam, Sam looked very conflicted about killing her to me. After he killed her, I agree. Sam looked more angry - which he was based on the later conversation. And it was that later conversation that linked the anger to Sam's fear for Dean's safety.*** And also as I talked about earlier, this is likely the intention of the narrative. Jared likely didn't have much choice in which scenes they chose to use. I myself would say his conflicted look of earlier was different from what happened with his facial expressions later, meaning it was likely shot a few different ways and the writer and/or director chose which ones to use. And the narrative at that time - which was the same as with Amy - was that shooting the monster was the right thing to do when your brother is emotionally conflicted, and that it is a favor when your family member does this for you. For me, this was very consistent, and so that is what the writers wanted to show. *** I may get this, because when I was younger and my Grampa would be watching us, if we got hurt, the first thing my Grampa would do would be to yell and get angry. He wasn't really angry to be angry though. It was a reaction to being afraid for us being really hurt. Despite the mixed messages for a kid, my sister and I learned pretty quickly that Grampa didn't really mean his yelling, but he was just scared/concerned for us. I think that's part of what they were going for here. Edited June 20, 2018 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I'm in agreement with all this, except maybe Dean being depressed about Emma. They didn't allow enough time in the episode for that, and it's never been mentioned again. But I defy anyone to watch this scene (at least from about 1:55) and tell me Jensen didn't play Dean as caring about Emma and being hurt over her death. That's fair. Depression was probably too strong a word but IMO he was clearly affected by her death and thought it was his daughter. 4 Link to comment
companionenvy June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Reganne said: As far as how things look in fandoms eyes, I think that it could really go either way depending on who is the persons favourite character. It doesn't really represent the entire fandom. Just like Sam fans feel his character was thrown under the bus in season 8, Dean fans think Dean was being thrown under the bus at the beginning of season 13 and how he dealt with Jack, yet they also don't afford Sam the same empathy as they do Dean. It's not really something that only Sam fans do. As far as the dislike for Benny's character, that could also be compared to the dislike of Jack's character that some Dean fans have for him. This. And as I said before, actually, I'm an example of someone who thinks both Sam and Dean were being thrown under the bus in those respective situations -- and who really liked Benny to boot. Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 Just now, AwesomO4000 said: Dean's tone-deafness when it came to Sam's hurt concerning Amy. According to Dean, Amy was just some girl Sam knew for a little while, but to Sam, Amy was a young girl who killed her own mother, dooming herself to an uncertain future, in order to save him To me, there is a world of difference between Dean suddenly learning he fathered a monster daughter, meeting her, thinking she might kill him and that he might have to kill her and watching Sam kill her all in the span of a few days. It's sudden onset of HOLY SHIT I have a kid and Holy Shit she's half monster and holy shit WTF. It's a lot to process and have a lot of emotional turmoil over. And given that Dean had Cas wipe Ben's memory, like a few months before that, her existence may have triggered all that father stuff that he wasn't expecting. Rational or not, maybe he felt a weird attachment to her because Dean believed she was his flesh and blood. IMO, if he didn't, he wouldn't have bothered to correct Sam. IMO, Sam has been presented and talked about in the narrative from s1 to s7 as being the more sensitive, kind, understanding, empathetic character and IMO that wasn't present in the Emma episode. At all. Maybe there was something that never made it to the screen that helped soften those edges in Sam that would have made it seem less like there was an underlying "getting even" for Amy thing. 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 I think it would be interesting to see a geniune conflict between Jack and Sam, both on-and offscreen. Who would win the battle of saintly woobie? At this point, it would probably even be Jack. Dean, I just want as far away from such stuff as possible because he can never win or even do right. Hopefully, he gets something resembling a good storyline out of the Michael possession where he isn`t portrayed as weak or dumb. My absolute two no-gos. Anything but weak. 4 Link to comment
Katy M June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Dean, I just want as far away from such stuff as possible because he can never win or even do right. Hopefully, he gets something resembling a good storyline out of the Michael possession where he isn`t portrayed as weak or dumb. My absolute two no-gos. Anything but weak. IMO, he's already been portrayed as dumb, because he apparently believed that they "had a deal," and didn't use the moment when he still had control but realized that Michael was taking possession to evict him. But, then again, Michael is also an idiot, because why would he even have allowed Dean to keep possession long enough for the fight. Are we really supposed to believe that a millennia old creature (who has already beaten at least some form of Lucifer) would think that a (insert one of Zachariah or Uriel's fun descriptions) human would be better in a fight? But, unless they do mirror scenes like in Swan Song, Dean won't even be in any episodes until Michael is out of him anyway. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, catrox14 said: IMO, Sam has been presented and talked about in the narrative from s1 to s7 as being the more sensitive, kind, understanding, empathetic character For me this is an oversimplification, since in my opinion, the show has often presented Sam with more complexity than this. Season 4 comes to mind... It looked to me based on that season that presenting Sam as "sensitive" wasn't in the playbook. Sam is also shown as sometimes impatient and overlooks the empathy, especially when he's on a mission. In other words, Sam is human, fallible, and in my opinion not always the sensitive guy... pretty much as I find the show as presenting him. 9 minutes ago, catrox14 said: and IMO that wasn't present in the Emma episode. At all. Maybe there was something that never made it to the screen that helped soften those edges in Sam that would have made it seem less like there was an underlying "getting even" for Amy thing. As I said before, I don't think the message of the narrative wanted to show that being sympathetic with the monster was the right thing to do. For me, the message was consistent with the message from "The Mentalists." However, to me, not showing empathy or understanding for the situation does not equate to "getting even." Those are two different things for me. Just because Dean didn't understand Sam's feelings about Amy and was more annoyed that Sam wouldn't see his side than sorry about Sam's feelings about Amy doesn't mean I thought Dean was somehow willfully trying to hurt or get back at Sam in some way. It means that Dean didn't see Sam's perspective the way Sam did... which is fine. I think it's the same with Sam here. Sam couldn't possibly understand how Dean felt and he was more concerned about that not affecting Dean and making Dean dead. That might make Sam a bit insensitive in this situation - and though not an excuse, he does still have some of his own mental issues on his plate - but to me that doesn't translate to Sam "getting even" which to me doesn't make sense based on how they came to a consensus in "The Mentalists." What does make sense to me? Sam being angry that he thought that Dean wasn't following the very same advice he accused Sam of ignoring and got angry with Sam for doing. Sam being annoyed about that - that makes sense to me and that's what I saw. Not a tit for tat but a "hey wait a minute... didn't we just talk about not letting our emotions cloud our judgement and letting the monster go? So why are you now letting the monster go? I'm kinda pissed about that." Not the most sensitive thing, but also - for me - not a tit for tat situation. 2 minutes ago, Katy M said: IMO, he's already been portrayed as dumb, because he apparently believed that they "had a deal," and didn't use the moment when he still had control but realized that Michael was taking possession to evict him. In Dean's defense, I don't think rejecting an archangel is all that easy... otherwise Sam would've booted Lucifer when he was possessed. I don't even think rejecting an angel in an undamaged state is even doable. My understanding was that the reason Gadreel could have been ejected was because he was damaged. I also give Dean some slack, because one of the reasons he had to deal with Michael was because of dumbass things other characters did, too *sigh* so not entirely Dean's fault there. Link to comment
Katy M June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I also give Dean some slack, because one of the reasons he had to deal with Michael was because of dumbass things other characters did, too *sigh* so not entirely Dean's fault there. Two dumbs don't equal a smart:) But, yeah, I realize he didn't have much choice. I don't think he should have done it, but I can see why he did. My main complaint is that he actually seemed to think that deal was going to hold. 8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: In Dean's defense, I don't think rejecting an archangel is all that easy... otherwise Sam would've booted Lucifer when he was possessed. I don't even think rejecting an angel in an undamaged state is even doable. My understanding was that the reason Gadreel could have been ejected was because he was damaged. I'm not so sure about that. In Hell's Angel, Crowley did the exact same thing as he did with Sam to try to get Cas to boot out Lucifer. Cas just didn't do it. And, easy or not, it certainly wouldn't have hurt to yell "GET OUT!" instead of "We had a deal." At least he would have tried. As far as Sam and Lucifer, he didn't yet know he could just say get out. That hadn't been established yet. Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: For me this is an oversimplification, since in my opinion, the show has often presented Sam with more complexity than this. Season 4 comes to mind... I don't think it is. I did not dismiss anything else about Sam. I was speaking in reference to THAT particular part of Sam's character. I didn't say nothing else existed. I'm saying in comparison to how the narrative presents Dean as the one who is insensitive, doesn't talk about his feelings etc. That Dean is the dick and Sam is not. Season 4 was almost anomalous for Sam and even then he was still presented as the one that suffered more for his demon blood addiction than Dean's 40 years in Hell. Sam had the the entire detox episode and then Dean was hit with "mean Dean" stick for deigning to think his brother had gone over the edge( see Bobby's Boo Hoo Princess speech). That's what I was trying to compare. FWiW, I think Dabb has gone backwards with Sam IMO with making him sort of saintly especially WRT to Jack. And that has made him less layered. I think Carver really did Sam a service in s8 to s10. He gave him edges and made him less sympathetic and weirdly I liked Sam more as a character if really hating a lot of what Sam said to Dean. It's a weird dichotomy and I'm sure most will not concur with my view on that. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Katy M said: I'm not so sure about that. In Hell's Angel, Crowley did the exact same thing as he did with Sam to try to get Cas to boot out Lucifer. Cas just didn't do it. And, easy or not, it certainly wouldn't have hurt to yell "GET OUT!" instead of "We had a deal." At least he would have tried. As far as Sam and Lucifer, he didn't yet know he could just say get out. That hadn't been established yet. I had a weird thought that Michael was the one that yelled "We had a deal". That maybe he was also the one who said "No, WE did it". I can't exactly explain it but I felt there was something in how Jensen played that didn't seem entirely like Dean. Like maybe it was a true amalgamation of Dean and Michael and that it was Michael because he seemed more surprised than anything. Like maybe Michael felt a connection to family that he never got in his world and that maybe Dean was already influencing him to see that. I can't explain it any better than that. I'm sure it's not the case, but my headcanon is that there was something else going on there more than AU Michael breaking a deal. And I also can't see Dean saying that other than shitty writing for 'poetic symmetry'. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I like to think I'm not LOL. 2 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 I don't think Dean believed for one minute that Michael would honour the 'deal', but he did it anyway because that's who he is. Nobody else has been able to eject an angel, never mind an archangel, without their permission. I recall Hannah saying the woman who was her meatsuit wasn't happy, but it wasn't until Hannah chose to leave her that she was ejected. The guy Raphael possessed was a drooling, catatonic mess - surely he would've ejected him if he could before it got to that point. Quote As far as Sam and Lucifer, he didn't yet know he could just say get out. That hadn't been established yet. He knew they had to say yes, so I don't see why he couldn't/wouldn't have tried 'get out' either, in that case. Sam wasn't dumb, and neither was Dean. 4 Link to comment
trxr4kids June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: But I defy anyone to watch this scene (at least from about 1:55) and tell me Jensen didn't play Dean as caring about Emma and being hurt over her death. And also watch Jared's facial expressions. IMO there was no fear for/relief over Dean being safe in that delivery. I saw shades of soulless Sam watching Dean be turned. 38 minutes ago, catrox14 said: IMO, Sam has been presented and talked about in the narrative from s1 to s7 as being the more sensitive, kind, understanding, empathetic character and IMO that wasn't present in the Emma episode. At all. Maybe there was something that never made it to the screen that helped soften those edges in Sam that would have made it seem less like there was an underlying "getting even" for Amy thing. For me also the narrative doesn't really match what I see and it bugs the shit outta me. 40 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: 'll just say that in my opinion the narrative stating that Sam is just a jerk is pretty much the definition of throwing Sam under the bus, because why else would a narrative want one of their main characters to be portrayed as just a jerk? Is that supposed to be a good thing? Are those of us who happen to like Sam supposed to be happy about that and not complain? If the writers are supposedly telling me "hey fans, remember that complex character you really liked? Guess what? He's really just a huge jerk!" I know you vehemently disagree but from every interview I read and con footage I saw, Jared and the PTB were excited about that SL and have never acknowledged ( that I'm aware of ) that Sam acted like a jerk, not even in the dialogue. Sam saying something nice about Benny after he died to save him doesn't even scratch the surface of his behavior. I think for me with Sam this is ongoing issue of show vs tell. I'm not really sure who the fault lies with but a lot of Sam's dialogue could and would IMO come across much more sympathetic if not for his perpetual bitchfaces. For example: even the craptastic S8 finale could've been softened up a bit by Jared emoting something other than whatever that was. Sam IMO came across as someone who felt he had been egregiously betrayed and Dean came across IMO as the apologetic wrongdoer and it wasn't all about the dialogue in this instance and many others for me at least. I've watched con footage and seen photos so I know it's not a case of Jared suffering from RBF. At this point it can't be blamed on directing either since both J's have said that they're barely given direction because everyone trusts them to know their characters, blah, blah, blah. 4 Link to comment
Katy M June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: I know you vehemently disagree but from every interview I read and con footage I saw, Jared and the PTB were excited about that SL and have never acknowledged ( that I'm aware of ) that Sam acted like a jerk, not even in the dialogue. Sam saying something nice about Benny after he died to save him doesn't even scratch the surface of his behavior. The only jerky thing I really saw out of Sam, and this is huge, is not looking for Kevin. Benny was a vampire. He shouldn't have just been implicitly trusted. He may not have betrayed Dean in Purgatory, but it wouldn't really have behooved him to do so, would it? And, it just seemed shady since Dean hid him from Sam. Shades of Ruby. Link to comment
trxr4kids June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: I know you vehemently disagree but from every interview I read and con footage I saw, Jared and the PTB were excited about that SL and have never acknowledged ( that I'm aware of ) that Sam acted like a jerk, not even in the dialogue. Sam saying something nice about Benny after he died to save him doesn't even scratch the surface of his behavior. Quoting myself like an asshole because I forgot to add that that viewpoint was not expressed during cons or interviews in regards to Dean's treatment of Jack. It was stated repeatedly that Dean had issues/was wrong and would change his tune later, surprise he did<eye roll>. I don't believe for one second TPTB intended to throw Sam under the bus in S8. I firmly believe they did intend to throw Dean under the bus in regards to his viewpoint and treatment of both Mary and Jack in S12 & S13. Sidenote: It's hot here and I'm ridiculously sitting outside because I feel like it, the heat has caused boob sweat which has made me kinda moody. 5 Link to comment
trxr4kids June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Katy M said: The only jerky thing I really saw out of Sam, and this is huge, is not looking for Kevin. Benny was a vampire. He shouldn't have just been implicitly trusted. He may not have betrayed Dean in Purgatory, but it wouldn't really have behooved him to do so, would it? And, it just seemed shady since Dean hid him from Sam. Shades of Ruby. I'm putting his distrust of Benny completely aside because at this point I don't care since it was spelled out for me that Sam was just jealous and suspicious for reasons, lol. He was a jerk for not looking for Dean, he is the smart one right? He was a jerk for treating Dean like a nuisance when he returned. He was a jerk for not trying to enlist help to rescue Kevin. He was a jerk for ditching the phones, etc. 6 Link to comment
catrox14 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 Sometimes I think Sam really isn't that nice of a guy in his heart. Not that he's evil, of course. Just more that maybe Sam is rather self-centered. That he sees things only from how it affects him. That's not bad either necessarily. It's very human. What I find more bothersome is that no one really calls him out for that. I can remember one time in Scarecrow when Dean outright told Sam he was a selfish bastard and then by the end of that episdoes Dean was apologizing for not letting Sam go. So I do think maybe both things are true abougt Sam. That hat is he is kind and empathetic with victims and monsters he can relate to, and he's also selfish and sometimes does manipulate things to get what he wants. 5 Link to comment
trxr4kids June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sometimes I think Sam really isn't that nice of a guy in his heart. Not that he's evil, of course. Just more that maybe Sam is rather self-centered. That he sees things only from how it affects him. That's not bad either necessarily. It's very human. What I find more bothersome is that no one really calls him out for that. I can remember one time in Scarecrow when Dean outright told Sam he was a selfish bastard and then by the end of that episdoes Dean was apologizing for not letting Sam go. That's my problem with the character in a nutshell. Not a single one of TPTB have called Sam on that issue, they describe his character as smart, empathetic, courageous, etc. Dean as a character is described as stubborn, a dick, immature, etc. by the very same people, it's frustrating as a Dean fan. 6 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Katy M said: Benny was a vampire. He shouldn't have just been implicitly trusted. If Benny was only using Dean had the perfect opportunity to dispose of him just after Dean resurrected him. When Dean hugged him he had the chance to rip his throat out. No one would have noticed or cared because no one gave a damn that Dean went missing. Benny earned Dean's trust. Not because he saved Dean but because he saved Cas. He didn't have too, he easily could have been a second too late. When Dean went to confront Benny he bought a machete. So it wasn't a blind trust. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Dean had already decided that he would let Emma go, even though he would have no guarantee that she would go straight. He said he wouldn't follow her, so how would he know what she would do in the future? This is true of any monster Sam and Dean let go. They let the werewolf Kate go on even less. They didn't monitor Lenore or Amy's child to make sure they didn't kill. Emma's mission was to kill her father to fully be accepted into their society. The amazons didn't come across as mindless killers (other than fathers) so if she agreed not to kill Dean that, IMO is a big sigh that she doesn't want to be a killer. 3 hours ago, Reganne said: The difference with the Amy situation is that Dean purposely went behind Sam's back and killed Amy. Then he kept that information from Sam. Dean does get mad at Sam when he does things like that. As much as I don't like that Dean lied to Sam at least he did his own dirty work and disposed of Amy himself instead of hiring someone to do it for him so he could keep his hands clean. Sam also lied to Dean and took off in the middle of the night. So he doesn't exactly have have the moral high ground here. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Sam wasn't sure at that point that it was Amy. He was going to check, and he left Dean a note. Sam didn't involve Dean, because Sam considered it his unfinished business... and what was he going to do: take a Dean with a cast into a potential monster hunt situation? Let the monster - Whether Amy or another of her kind - continue to kill people? Sam still could have let Dean in from the beginning. "Hey Dean, I think I caught a case. I need to check this out for reasons, XYZ." What's forgotten a lot of the time is that Sam shouldn't have been hunting on his own. He was still zoning out and seeing Lucifer. When Dean found Sam gone you (general you) can't blame him for thinking the worst. Sam's judgement wasn't sound. It was compromised. So if he involved Dean from the start maybe things would have turned out different. Sam gave reasons for Dean to question his decisions. Was it him or Lucifer making them. Its reasonable to Dean to feel this. 1 hour ago, trxr4kids said: . Sam IMO came across as someone who felt he had been egregiously betrayed and Dean came across IMO as the apologetic wrongdoer and it wasn't all about the dialogue in this instance and many others for me at least. This is a big issue with Sam for me. I find the show is allergic to having Sam say I'm sorry without adding a whole list of qualifiers, buts, if onlies, excuses and its only my fault because you made me do its. I find the show tends to say that Sam is in the wrong because other people didn't accept Sam's actions rather than the actions themselves. 9 Link to comment
FlickChick June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 32 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sometimes I think Sam really isn't that nice of a guy in his heart. Not that he's evil, of course. Just more that maybe Sam is rather self-centered. That he sees things only from how it affects him. That's not bad either necessarily. It's very human. What I find more bothersome is that no one really calls him out for that. I can remember one time in Scarecrow when Dean outright told Sam he was a selfish bastard and then by the end of that episdoes Dean was apologizing for not letting Sam go. So I do think maybe both things are true abougt Sam. That hat is he is kind and empathetic with victims and monsters he can relate to, and he's also selfish and sometimes does manipulate things to get what he wants. I agree with this so much. I believe that Sam is definitely self-centered and self-absorbed and manipulative. And it bothers the hell out of me that he is never called out on these character traits. But nobody has a problem calling out Dean any time he doesn't act like a saint. Truly one of my biggest pet peeves with this show. 6 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, FlickChick said: I agree with this so much. I believe that Sam is definitely self-centered and self-absorbed and manipulative. And it bothers the hell out of me that he is never called out on these character traits. But nobody has a problem calling out Dean any time he doesn't act like a saint. Truly one of my biggest pet peeves with this show. This, more than anything turned me off Sam's character. One line if Fallen Idols did more damage to the character for me than anything Sam did in s4. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: I was speaking in reference to THAT particular part of Sam's character. I didn't say nothing else existed. I'm saying in comparison to how the narrative presents Dean as the one who is insensitive, doesn't talk about his feelings etc. That Dean is the dick and Sam is not. I was as well. I am saying that the narrative does show Sam as sometimes not being sensitive - on purpose. I remember scenes where it is show explicitly that Sam is mainly pretending to be sensitive to the person of the week to get the information he needs, but when the person looks away, Sam looks annoyed or otherwise lets the mask fall. I really don't think the show tries to hide this, so I just don't see the supposed preferential treatment that you do. 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: Season 4 was almost anomalous for Sam and even then he was still presented as the one that suffered more for his demon blood addiction than Dean's 40 years in Hell. Sam had the the entire detox episode and then Dean was hit with "mean Dean" stick for deigning to think his brother had gone over the edge( see Bobby's Boo Hoo Princess speech). This is where we differ. I didn't see what you're talking about. I saw the narrative making sure that Dean looked like the one who was put upon and abused by Sam, making sure that Dean's pain was foremost. The "amoalous" behavior from Sam was used to emphasize this. Sam's detox episode mainly made him look delusional, not like a victim, because we learned that everything he was telling himself wasn't true, and this was reinforced by Ruby's "It was all you" line in the finale and multitudes of other characters parroting this same thing later on. I don't see that as presenting Sam as the one who was suffering more, but your miles may vary. I also didn't see the "Boo hoo" princess thing as saying Dean didn't have a right to be angry. I saw it as saying Dean did have the right to be angry and hurt, but that his anger and hurt unfortunately couldn't come before saving the world. The narrative then showed how forgiving Dean was for all the wrongs Sam had done him by having him make the original phone call - showing that Dean did put the world first. What I think is sometimes forgotten in all of this was that Dean made the decision to bring Sam back even though he knew Sam wouldn't have wanted him to, but he did it anyway. But it was painted as a loving act of saving his brother, and Sam's pain and getting screwed up over it was overlooked and everything blamed on Sam's "bad choices." We got one, maybe two, lines of Sam questioning why Dean did it, and then it was all about how Dean had sacrificed for Sam and Sam should be grateful to him. We got the same thing with Gadreel later - how Sam should be grateful, and the narrative paints any kind of anger or wrong thing that Sam does as his not appreciating Dean's sacrifice for him enough... never mind that Sam might not have wanted it in the first place. It's still Sam's fault for not being grateful. Sam's supposed to just suck up his hurt feelings and thank Dean for doing what he didn't want Dean to do in the first place and then he's a jerk if he doesn't. So in my opinion Dean isn't the only one expected to suck up his hurt feelings... he just often gets more credit for it. 1 hour ago, trxr4kids said: He was a jerk for not looking for Dean, he is the smart one right? He was a jerk for treating Dean like a nuisance when he returned. He was a jerk for not trying to enlist help to rescue Kevin. He was a jerk for ditching the phones, etc. Yes, and this is why I have a hard time believing the narrative wasn't intending to throw Sam under the bus. They had Sam act like a complete jerk - and no I don't believe the writers wouldn't know this is jerky behavior, because really?*** - and then they had him be wrong on top of that while making Benny into a woobie... which in my opinion was their point all along. Who is the real monster in this? And it wasn't Benny... which means that it was Sam and always intended to be Sam. I don't care what the power that bes painted it for Jared as in the beginning. I'm pretty sure if Jared knew how it was all going to play out, he wouldn't have been very enthused. And I'm pretty sure in retrospect he didn't like the season 8 storyline from what I've heard. *** And they even hung a huge lampshade on the phone thing with Kevin, so yes, they knew it was jerky. 1 Link to comment
DeeDee79 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: can remember one time in Scarecrow when Dean outright told Sam he was a selfish bastard and then by the end of that episdoes Dean was apologizing for not letting Sam go. Speaking of this episode I absolutely hated when Sam acts like his grief over Jessica is automatically more important than the grief that Dean holds over Mary's death just because Dean was so young when it happened. That was such a dick move IMO. 43 minutes ago, FlickChick said: I agree with this so much. I believe that Sam is definitely self-centered and self-absorbed and manipulative. And it bothers the hell out of me that he is never called out on these character traits. But nobody has a problem calling out Dean any time he doesn't act like a saint. Truly one of my biggest pet peeves with this show. I agree with you and @catrox14's post that you quoted so much. 4 Link to comment
Reganne June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't care what the power that bes painted it for Jared as in the beginning. I'm pretty sure if Jared knew how it was all going to play out, he wouldn't have been very enthused. And I'm pretty sure in retrospect he didn't like the season 8 storyline from what I've heard. *** And they even hung a huge lampshade on the phone thing with Kevin, so yes, they knew it was jerky. I agree. They knew what they were doing. They even had Dean say that Benny was more of a brother than Sam ever was. Yes, he was influenced by the coin, but that is still what Dean thought. Sam has never been as good as Benny... or at least to Dean. Then of course they bring up Sam's season 8 mistakes 3 seasons later in season 11. Yet we are suppose to believe the narrative is painting Sam's character as right in season 8? 2 Link to comment
trxr4kids June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 13 minutes ago, Reganne said: I don't care what the power that bes painted it for Jared as in the beginning. I'm pretty sure if Jared knew how it was all going to play out, he wouldn't have been very enthused. And I'm pretty sure in retrospect he didn't like the season 8 storyline from what I've heard. *** And they even hung a huge lampshade on the phone thing with Kevin, so yes, they knew it was jerky. Sorry for quoting you @Reganne it won't let me change it as it is a quote within your post. While I'd love to read the entirety of this post @AwesomO4000 I can't because it seems to be gone and I'm kinda peeved by it. I've also noticed several posts appearing on a delay to me today, grrr! However I'll address this little bit I borrowed from Reganne...... I'm not so sure he wouldn't have been enthused if told (which wasn't the showrunners intention ) he was going to be a dick most of the season that he wouldn't have embraced it wholeheartedly. He loved soulless Sam and demon blood Sam, both of which made actual Sam less sympathetic to me because of emphasized behaviors that were pre- existing. The phone calls from Kevin IMO were played strictly for comedy, much like when Dean is a portrayed as a lecherous, slovenly, old, unattractive manchild. Link to comment
DeeDee79 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 31 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: The phone calls from Kevin IMO were played strictly for comedy, much like when Dean is a portrayed as a lecherous, slovenly, old, unattractive manchild. And the phone messages were over in a split second while Dean has been characterized this way for seasons now. *sigh* 5 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 (edited) Ive always felt the whole "Benny is a better brother" was done with the intent of painting Dean as the bad guy for being mean to poor little Sammy and hurting his feelings. Because if Sam was intended to be the bad guy or wrong the narrative would have called Sam out on his actions. It didn't. It didn't bring them up or even mention them or have Sam apologize for leaving Dean handcuffed to radiator. It wouldn't' have had Charlie canonically say that Dean ruined Sam's life, conveniently forgetting that Sam left before Dean came back and once again removing Dean's voice here. They also had Dean give in to Sam's temper tantrum and demands. Dean- in or out but make a choice. Sam- dump Benny or I'll dump you. But yet somehow Dean's the one that's controlling. (Insert massive eye roll). Then there was poor woobie Sammy with being so sick from the trials and Dean having to support him, but that support was seen by Sam as babying and once again Dean had to prove to Sam he trusted him. They had Dean bring up all Sam's transgressions, included him being souless. IMO, that was done to put the focus on Dean blaming Sam for something beyond his control so the rest of Dean's points could be ignored. Then the wording, "What happens the next time you decide not to trust me." Putting the burden of trust on Dean's failure to support Sam rather than Sam's actions. Nope. If the show wanted me to see Sam as the bad guy they failed. I think their intention was to give Dean that honor but once again they under estimated Jensen's talent to soften even the harshest writing. For me the authorial intent right from Singer's interview of how Dean was being unfair and mean to Dean grovelling to Sam couldn't have been made clearer. This is why Season 8 is the worst season ever. Quote I'm not so sure he wouldn't have been enthused if told (which wasn't the showrunners intention ) he was going to be a dick most of the season that he wouldn't have embraced it wholeheartedly. He loved soulless Sam and demon blood Sam, both of which made actual Sam less sympathetic to me because of emphasized behaviors that were pre- existing. Jared also called Gadreel a wet dream storyline. So I agree with this. I Edited June 20, 2018 by ILoveReading 8 Link to comment
DeeDee79 June 20, 2018 Share June 20, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Ive always felt the whole "Benny is a better brother" was done with the intent of painting Dean as the bad guy for being mean to poor little Sammy and hurting his feelings. Because if Sam was intended to be the bad guy or wrong the narrative would have called Sam out on his actions. It didn't. It didn't bring them up or even mention them or have Sam apologize for leaving Dean handcuffed to radiator. It wouldn't' have had Charlie canonically say that Dean ruined Sam's life, conveniently forgetting that Sam left before Dean came back and once again removing Dean's voice here. They also had Dean give in to Sam's temper tantrum and demands. Dean- in or out but make a choice. Sam- dump Benny or I'll dump you. But yet somehow Dean's the one that's controlling. (Insert massive eye roll). Then there was poor woobie Sammy with being so sick from the trials and Dean having to support him, but that support was seen by Sam as babying and once again Dean had to prove to Sam he trusted him. They had Dean bring up all Sam's transgressions, included him being souless. IMO, that was done to put the focus on Dean blaming Sam for something beyond his control so the rest of Dean's points could be ignored. Then the wording, "What happens the next time you decide not to trust me." Putting the burden of trust on Dean's failure to support Sam rather than Sam's actions. Nope. If the show wanted me to see Sam as the bad guy they failed. I think their intention was to give Dean that honor but once again they under estimated Jensen's talent to soften even the harshest writing. For me the authorial intent right from Singer's interview of how Dean was being unfair and mean to Dean grovelling to Sam couldn't have been made clearer. This is why Season 8 is the worst season ever. Jared also called Gadreel a wet dream storyline. So I agree with this. I Agree with all of this so much. The only bright spots of season 8 that I can think of off the top of my head are Dean's delight at having his own room and the introduction of Benny. Edited June 20, 2018 by DeeDee79 5 Link to comment
Reganne June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Nope. If the show wanted me to see Sam as the bad guy they failed. I think their intention was to give Dean that honor but once again they under estimated Jensen's talent to soften even the harshest writing. For me the authorial intent right from Singer's interview of how Dean was being unfair and mean to Dean grovelling to Sam couldn't have been made clearer. This is why Season 8 is the worst season ever. Jared also called Gadreel a wet dream storyline. So I agree with this. I So you think Sam was right in season 8? I don't. I don't think they would be bringing it up 3 seasons later as a failure on Sam's part if he were supposed to be right. Also, I think Benny wouldn't have been so woobified by the narrative because jealous mean Sam wouldnt let Dean be friends with him. Then poor Benny doesn't feel like he fits in with the world because he doesnt have Dean and dont you know he then makes a huge and brave sacrifice to save mean Sam... Benny would have had at least a bit of a dark side if they were to have shown Sam as being right IMO. 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, Reganne said: So you think Sam was right in season 8? I don't. I don't think they would be bringing it up 3 seasons later as a failure on Sam's part if he were supposed to be right. Also, I think Benny wouldn't have been so woobified by the narrative because jealous mean Sam wouldnt let Dean be friends with him. Then poor Benny doesn't feel like he fits in with the world because he doesnt have Dean and dont you know he then makes a huge and brave sacrifice to save mean Sam... Benny would have had at least a bit of a dark side if they were to have shown Sam as being right IMO. I worded that badly. No, I don't think Sam was right, I think the writers intention was for Sam to be right. As for bringing it up 3 years later, I think that was more to let Sam off the hook. Sam didn't apologize or say he was sorry. He said he's never forgive himself. Then they have Dean just brush it off saying he did. Dean would have looked like a dick if he still showed hurt or anger over it. That really didn't' work because Sam never showed any guilt or remorse for it. Why couldn't the they just have Sam say, "Sorry I hurt you by not looking." Benny did have a bit of a darkside. He went after the crew that killed him for revenge. If the writers were supporting Dean they would have given him a voice when Sam demanded Dean cut Benny out of his life. 3 Link to comment
companionenvy June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I worded that badly. No, I don't think Sam was right, I think the writers intention was for Sam to be right. As for bringing it up 3 years later, I think that was more to let Sam off the hook. Sam didn't apologize or say he was sorry. He said he's never forgive himself. Then they have Dean just brush it off saying he did. Dean would have looked like a dick if he still showed hurt or anger over it. That really didn't' work because Sam never showed any guilt or remorse for it. Why couldn't the they just have Sam say, "Sorry I hurt you by not looking." Benny did have a bit of a darkside. He went after the crew that killed him for revenge. If the writers were supporting Dean they would have given him a voice when Sam demanded Dean cut Benny out of his life. Sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a real stretch. The Benny arc ends with Benny saving Sam's life and Sam admitting that he "isn't what he thought" he was. Benny is portrayed as thoroughly sympathetic; when Dean rejects him because of Sam, we're clearly supposed to feel bad for him. Dean at one point calls Benny the better brother. How this amounts to Sam being right is mystifying to me. It recalls the conversation a few weeks ago where it was actually being argued that Sam was "validated "in his decision to follow Ruby, even though that decision starts an apocalypse and Ruby's time on the show ends with Sam holding her down as Dean kills her. There are plenty of times when the narrative does paint Dean as wrong; I'm not sure why it is necessary to also take scenes where the narrative seems pretty explicitly to be painting Sam as wrong and contort them so that he's actually right or being treated as right. As for the scene three years later - even if it was to let Sam off the hook, that would be a tacit acknowledgment by the show that Sam had done something bad that needed to be addressed. I do think there is something potentially meaningfully in the phrasing that Sam using being "I'll never forgive myself" rather than "I'm sorry," because it does put the emphasis on Sam's feelings rather than Dean's. That's fair. But it is a clear acknowledgment of wrong. You don't have anything to forgive yourself for if you don't think you did anything wrong in the first place. Edited June 21, 2018 by companionenvy 3 Link to comment
catrox14 June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Reganne said: So you think Sam was right in season 8? I don't. I don't think they would be bringing it up 3 seasons later as a failure on Sam's part if he were supposed to be right. A IMO, the only reason they brought that up at all, was to re-introduce Lucifer and make him right about something so that they could tease potential redemption and for them to put finally end that part of Sam's SL WRT to s9. I don't think it really served Sam or Dean but mainly Lucifer. 4 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 I know when an apology to me begins and ends with how they can't forgive themselves, and the word 'sorry' never enters into it, I don't consider it an apology. Quote Sam: Dean. When I was with Lucifer, he um, showed me things. It was like a highlight reel of my biggest failures. Dean: Yeah, he was messing with you. That's what he does. Sam: Give me a sec. I should have looked for you. When you were in Purgatory, I should have turned over every stone, but I didn't, I stopped. And I've never forgiven myself for it. This is the sum total of the words used in Sam's 'apology'. I see a whole lot of 'I's and 'me's but not one "I'm sorry". Sam was feeling bad after all this time because Lucifer pointed out how shitty he was. Lucifer. And in all of S8 Sam never indicated even once that he thought he did anything wrong by not looking for Dean. So 'never forgiven myself' rings kind of hollow when it took the freaking Devil to make you feel bad about it. 5 hours ago, trxr4kids said: I saw shades of soulless Sam watching Dean be turned. Yes. There was no trace of brotherly affection or concern in that face at all. 6 Link to comment
Reganne June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I know when an apology to me begins and ends with how they can't forgive themselves, and the word 'sorry' never enters into it, I don't consider it an apology. This is the sum total of the words used in Sam's 'apology'. I see a whole lot of 'I's and 'me's but not one "I'm sorry". Sam was feeling bad after all this time because Lucifer pointed out how shitty he was. Lucifer. And in all of S8 Sam never indicated even once that he thought he did anything wrong by not looking for Dean. So 'never forgiven myself' rings kind of hollow when it took the freaking Devil to make you feel bad about it. Yes. There was no trace of brotherly affection or concern in that face at all. When it comes to Fallen Idols, people have complained because Sam apparently wasn't taking all the blame himself. In season 11, those 'I's" you're talking about are solely about Sam saying what he did wrong. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but didn't Dean brush him off before Sam was able to fully apologize? Though I could be thinking of another time all together. As it is, I think these words by Sam himself saying he was wrong if anything prove that Sam was in the wrong in season 8 and that the narrative painted it that way. 28 minutes ago, catrox14 said: IMO, the only reason they brought that up at all, was to re-introduce Lucifer and make him right about something so that they could tease potential redemption and for them to put finally end that part of Sam's SL WRT to s9. I don't think it really served Sam or Dean but mainly Lucifer. Even if Lucifer was right about something, that something would still be Sam being wrong in season 8. Link to comment
ILoveReading June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I know when an apology to me begins and ends with how they can't forgive themselves, and the word 'sorry' never enters into it, I don't consider it an apology. This is the sum total of the words used in Sam's 'apology'. I see a whole lot of 'I's and 'me's but not one "I'm sorry". Sam was feeling bad after all this time because Lucifer pointed out how shitty he was. Lucifer. And in all of S8 Sam never indicated even once that he thought he did anything wrong by not looking for Dean. So 'never forgiven myself' rings kind of hollow when it took the freaking Devil to make you feel bad about it. Yes. There was no trace of brotherly affection or concern in that face at all. Yup. If you have to be guilted into an apology by Lucifer of all people how sorry is a person really in the first place. I didn't even really need Sam to say he was sorry for not looking. All I wanted to see from him was understand about why Dean was so hurt. Something Sam doesn't seem capable of. 5 Link to comment
Reganne June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: Sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a real stretch. The Benny arc ends with Benny saving Sam's life and Sam admitting that he "isn't what he thought" he was. Benny is portrayed as thoroughly sympathetic; when Dean rejects him because of Sam, we're clearly supposed to feel bad for him. Dean at one point calls Benny the better brother. How this amounts to Sam being right is mystifying to me. It recalls the conversation a few weeks ago where it was actually being argued that Sam was "validated "in his decision to follow Ruby, even though that decision starts an apocalypse and Ruby's time on the show ends with Sam holding her down as Dean kills her. There are plenty of times when the narrative does paint Dean as wrong; I'm not sure why it is necessary to also take scenes where the narrative seems pretty explicitly to be painting Sam as wrong and contort them so that he's actually right or being treated as right. As for the scene three years later - even if it was to let Sam off the hook, that would be a tacit acknowledgment by the show that Sam had done something bad that needed to be addressed. I do think there is something potentially meaningfully in the phrasing that Sam using being "I'll never forgive myself" rather than "I'm sorry," because it does put the emphasis on Sam's feelings rather than Dean's. That's fair. But it is a clear acknowledgment of wrong. You don't have anything to forgive yourself for if you don't think you did anything wrong in the first place. This. You wouldn't have to be let off the hook for something if the narrative was painting that something as right. If it were supposed to be right in the first place, there would be no hook to be let off of. 2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Yup. If you have to be guilted into an apology by Lucifer of all people how sorry is a person really in the first place. I didn't even really need Sam to say he was sorry for not looking. All I wanted to see from him was understand about why Dean was so hurt. Something Sam doesn't seem capable of. See, I think that Sam has felt guilty about it before that. I think that's the whole reason why he went full force with trying to save Dean from the mark. In fact, I think that's exactly what Lucifer said. It was Sam's guilt over not looking for Dean in purgatory that lead him to be so careless with removing the mark and worrying about the consequences later. He was using his curing of the mark at any costs to make up for his mistake of not looking for Dean in purgatory. IMO, this guilt followed Sam for seasons and caused him to act rashly when it came to Dean and the mark. 2 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, Reganne said: See, I think that Sam has felt guilty about it before that. I think that's the whole reason why he went full force with trying to save Dean from the mark. In fact, I think that's exactly what Lucifer said. It was Sam's guilt over not looking for Dean in purgatory that lead him to be so careless with removing the mark and worrying about the consequences later. He was using his curing of the mark at any costs to make up for his mistake of not looking for Dean in purgatory. IMO, this guilt followed Sam for seasons and caused him to act rashly when it came to Dean and the mark. I think Sam went full force trying to save Dean from the Mark because he felt guilty about saying he wouldn't save him, and then watched him die in his arms, and come back as a demon. I think it was a wake up call of the highest order for Sam and that is what made him determined not to let it happen again. I don't think Purgatory ever entered his mind until Lucifer reminded him of it. 6 Link to comment
companionenvy June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 The thing is, an apology shouldn't be like a charm, where only a specific set of magic words will do. There are multiple ways of expressing the same thing. And the phrase "I'm sorry" is also an "I" statement. Unless it is followed with "I'm sorry that I hurt you," it isn't a formulation grounded in empathy for the other person's emotional state. What is more "I'm sorry that I hurt you" could be interpreted as a way of ducking blame, as it isn't taking responsibility for the action, just expressing regret at the outcome. So, this is another situation where I'm really not sure that Sam could ever win; if he frames it in terms of Dean's feelings, that's not necessarily a genuine admission of wrong, either. But let's pretend there is something magical about the words "I'm sorry." I was curious, so I just went back and did a search of every episode transcript for the words "I'm sorry," and marked down every time Sam uses them. I was also paying attention to Dean uses, although I didn't note all of them. I excluded colloquial uses of the term, Soulless Sam, an instance of Sam saying "sorry" while locked in the panic room, since he was obviously willing to say anything to get Dean to let him go, one in which Sam's apology is followed by Dean saying that Sam was right, and one in which Sam apologizes for lying but is still lying as he says it. I also wasn't searching for "I'm so sorry," so there could be some significant misses. What I found: After S5, interestingly, Sam almost never apologizes to Dean in those words -- but Dean also almost never apologizes to Sam. Sam doesn't say "I'm sorry" about not looking for Dean, in so many words; Dean never says "I'm sorry" about the Gadreel situation, in so many words. Sam's three apologies in that time are all for lying to Dean about, respectively, not being forthcoming about the escalation of his Hellucinations, not admitting how much the first trial had affected his health, and lying about working for the MoL. That this keeps happening suggests that Sam's apologies are somewhat hollow, in that he keeps doing the same thing -- but I think similar accusations could be leveled against Dean, who is also less than immediately forthcoming about relevant factors in a variety of situations. This is the Winchester MO. Prior to that, we get a lot more Sam apologies, starting in the Pilot: SAM: What I said earlier about mom and dad, I'm sorry 1 X 10, Asylum: SAM: I'm sorry, man. I said some terrible things back there. 1X 12, Faith: DEAN: What did you find out? [Sam has found out that the victim died at exactly the same time Dean was revived, proving Dean's skepticism right] SAM: I'm sorry. 1X18, Something Wicked: SAM: Hey, Dean, I'm sorry. DEAN: For what? SAM: You know, I’ve really given you a lot of crap, for always following Dad’s orders. But I know why you do it. 2.02, Everybody Loves a Clown: SAM: You were right. About me and Dad. I’m sorry that the last time I was with him I tried to pick a fight. I’m sorry that I spent most of my life angry at him…So you’re right. What I’m doing right now, it is too little. It’s too late…I miss him, man. And I feel guilty as hell. After that, there are no apologies from Sam for a long time. Notably, Dean does apologize a couple of times for what he has put Sam through in making the deal. 4.01, Lazarus Rising: [After Dean assumes Sam has sold his soul to get Dean out of hell] SAM: I tried everything. That’s the truth. I tried opening the Devil’s Gate. Hell I tried to bargain, Dean, but no demon would deal, all right? You were rotting in Hell for months. For months, and I couldn’t stop it. So I’m sorry it wasn’t me, all right? Dean, I’m sorry.” Now we get into Sam's response to the apocalypse. This, I think, is significant given discussions about whether or not Sam had ever apologized or taken responsibility for what he did. The transcripts indicate that he did, several times. 4.22, Lucifer Rising [After they kill Ruby] SAM (to Dean, brokenly): I'm sorry. 5.01, Sympathy for the Devil: SAM: Dean DEAN: It's okay. You don't have to say anything. SAM: Well, that’s good. Because what can I even say? “I’m sorry”? “I screwed up?” Doesn’t really do it justice, you know. Look, there’s nothing I can do or say that will ever make this right – DEAN: Then why do you keep bringing it up? Later in the episode: SAM: Actually, Bobby, this is all my fault. I'm sorry...you guys warned me about Ruby, the demon blood, but I didn't listen. I brought this on. BOBBY (who is possessed): You’re damn right you didn’t listen. You were reckless and selfish and arrogant. SAM: I'm sorry. BOBBY: Oh yeah? You’re sorry you started Armageddon? This kind of thing don’t get forgiven boy. If, by some miracle, we pull this off… I want you to lose my number. You understand me? SAM nods. His expression barely changes: this can’t be much different from what he expected. DEAN doesn’t protest. 5.02, Good God Y'All SAM: I'm in no shape to be hunting. I need to step back, ‘cause I’m dangerous. Maybe its best we just…go our separate ways. [Dean agrees, to Sam's surprise, and says he's too worried about Sam to do the job] SAM: I'm sorry Dean. DEAN: I know you are, Sam. This is, of course, followed by Fallen Idols. We've had this conversation multiple times, so I don't want to rehash it, but I still maintain that as Sam explicitly says that he is not saying that the apocalypse is Dean's fault, and that it is his, this doesn't counteract these previous examples even if one concludes that he is being unfair to Dean. At worst, it is a step backward into partial deflection, which - though it isn't followed by more explicit "I'm sorry"s, is followed by Sam maintaining that as he started this mess, it is his responsibility to end it at the cost of his own life. Finally, one I know will be controversial. From 5.16, "Dark Side of the Moon." [Sam is recalling Flagstaff fondly] DEAN: Well you don’t remember, do you? You ran away on my watch. I looked everywhere for you. I thought you were dead. And when Dad came home… SAM looks guilty. DEAN looks upset before he turns away. Sam: Dean, look, I’m sorry. I never thought about I it like that. They then have an similar exchange about Sam's memory of leaving Stanford. Whatever else those memories indicate about Sam and Dean's relationship, Sam apologizes - and in this case, it seems purely tied to the emotional effect on Dean and not taking his feelings into account. As I said, I didn't count up the Dean apologies, but my sense is neither brother has a wildly disproportionate record of apologizing to the other. What this shows, however, is that Sam has, canonically, apologized in precisely those words to Dean on numerous occasions. And that's accepting what I consider the highly dubious and arbitrary proposition that apologies only count if precisely the right formula of words are used. Besides "I'm so sorry," I also didn't search for "I was wrong," "You were right," etc, and I can think of a few examples of these kinds of implicit apologies off the top of my head, i.e, Sam conceding that he was wrong "every time" he left the family. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 13 hours ago, Reganne said: Even if Lucifer was right about something, that something would still be Sam being wrong in season 8. Not really. All he did was take Sam down memory lane in order to guilt trip Sam so he could manipulate him into saying yes again. And the thing to me is that I don't believe Sam ever felt guilty and that's why he didn't actually apologize for not looking for Dean. IMO, since he never said "I'm sorry" nor "I apologize" then he didn't. Dean saying it's forgotten isn't accepting Sam's non apology either. It was Dean saying he had moved past his hurt and there was no point in dwelling on it especially when there were other issues to deal with like toDean having just been kidnapped by Amara and nearly having his soul sucked out by her. Sam still could have said, "I still want to say I'm sorry" buy he didn't. So to me it was about relieving himself of the guilt trip laid up in him by Lucifer. Not all guilt trips are true and valid for the party being guilt tripped. 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 June 21, 2018 Share June 21, 2018 Quote IMO, he's already been portrayed as dumb, because he apparently believed that they "had a deal," and didn't use the moment when he still had control but realized that Michael was taking possession to evict him. But, then again, Michael is also an idiot, because why would he even have allowed Dean to keep possession long enough for the fight. Are we really supposed to believe that a millennia old creature (who has already beaten at least some form of Lucifer) would think that a (insert one of Zachariah or Uriel's fun descriptions) human would be better in a fight? But, unless they do mirror scenes like in Swan Song, Dean won't even be in any episodes until Michael is out of him anyway. I don`t think he truly believed it, he did hope for the best but Dean is more cynical than the others when it comes to such matters. Now I don`t have a problem with him not yelling "no" because the idea that you can so easily cast out an archangel like that is ludicrous to me. Even in lol!canon it hasn`t been established. If they did, it would make 5.22 even worse because if it was THAT easy, Sam wouldn`t have needed to know, he could have just done it, period. You say "yes" to possession, there are no real take-backs. Unless the angel himself is sick and weakened, then it levels the playing field for the vessel. There could be ways to bring in Dean even without mirror scenes. It could be some visible battle between the two. The one thing I absolutely don`t want are some "parallels" where everyone goes "oh, Sam was so super-strong, he overpowered Lucifer all by his lonesome but of course Dean is such a weak-willed person, he has no chance". That is what I meant by please no weak-Dean. Pitting the hell experiences against each other with even Dean himself having to insultingly belittle his own hell time as Disneyland just to prop up Sam as the one who suffered most in the entire history of creation bugged so much. I don`t want a replay of that in any way, shape or form. I want Dean`s strength acknowledged. Lock Singer out of the room when discussing and writing this so he can`t cut in with how stupid and pathetic and crazy Dean is. Lock Dabb out of the room, too. Or find some random person completely unfamiliar with Supernatural who wanders by their office building to write the thing. At least that would give you someone who wouldn`t get their rocks off humiliating the character. Already a step-up IMO. 8 Link to comment
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