“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And God forbid there be a reference to Dean being in hell instead of hearing about Sam & the cage for the umpteenth time.

This. X a million 

[gonzosgirrl]

I dunno. We run in here to defend fictitious characters from insults all the time. I'd expect it of my brothers. :)

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Honest question for those concerned why Dean was the one included for the blood thing in 13.08. Supposing it wasn't just the hellhound deal, why does it matter if Dean was the point person vs Sam in that case?

I didn't get the impression anyone was concerned--as in they thought it was unfair or anything--but just didn't understand. Considering how many people commented on being confused, I think the show failed to make it clear why Dean's blood specifically was needed.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't get the impression anyone was concerned--as in they thought it was unfair or anything--but just didn't understand. Considering how many people commented on being confused, I think the show failed to make it clear why Dean's blood specifically was needed.

I guess that's what I don't get. How was it not clear when they showed Dean's flashbacks and the deal making parallel was there? I mean all signs pointed to Dean, but somehow that wasn't clear?

How would Bart have addressed it? I'm not even sure most demons even KNOW Sam was in the cage?  Remember when Sam said 'Who told you that?" to Roy and Walt? It was obviously not something that was supposedly general knowledge. The hunter at Asa Fox's funeral was like "Hey were you really Lucifer's vessel" but there was no indication they knew he'd been in Hell. Just that he got possessed by Lucifer. So maybe it's not even a known thing by a lot of demons that Sam did that. I dunno, just musing.

But Dean was known in Hell. He was the apprentice to Hell's master torturer for some time. So IMO that also had to do with why Sam wasn't mentioned.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess that's what I don't get. How was it not clear when they showed Dean's flashbacks and the deal making parallel was there? I mean all signs pointed to Dean, but somehow that wasn't clear?

As I said, it made sense to me in the end, but considering how many people commented on it, it clearly didn't make sense to everyone.

IMO, The signs didn't point to Dean, but Bart pointed to Dean without explaining why Dean and not just anyone else who had went to Hell and come back--like Sam. They showed flashbacks of Dean in Hell, but I thought those were actually pointless because we already knew Dean had been in Hell and they didn't actually explain why Sam's blood wouldn't work as well. It wasn't until the end of the episode they revealed the guy had also made a deal and was released from Hell, like Dean, but even then they didn't actually tie it back to make it clear that's why Dean's blood was needed and not just anyone who'd went to Hell and come back.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How would Bart have addressed it? I'm not even sure most demons even KNOW Sam was in the cage?  Remember when Sam said 'Who told you that?" to Roy and Walt? It was obviously not something that was supposedly general knowledge. The hunter at Asa Fox's funeral was like "Hey were you really Lucifer's vessel" but there was no indication they knew he'd been in Hell. Just that he got possessed by Lucifer. So maybe it's not even a known thing by a lot of demons that Sam did that. I dunno, just musing.

I'm guessing demons know the score even if hunters don't. They would know how the apocalypse was overted and since getting Sam's soul back in S6 was Crowley's leverage for a a while, I can't imagine they don't know about Sam being in the cage. 

But, they didn't have to even address Sam's Hell at all to make it clear from the jump. All Bart had to say was they needed the blood of someone who sold his soul, went to hell and came back. That would've made it clear from the jump that not just any person who had went to Hell and came back would do and not spoiled that the guy's deal wasn't selfish or self-serving.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But Dean was known in Hell. He was the apprentice to Hell's master torturer for some time. So IMO that also had to do with why Sam wasn't mentioned.

Again, I don't think anyone cares that Sam's Hell wasn't mentioned, just didn't understand why it was Dean specifically they needed and not anyone else who had been to Hell. Personally, I don't think it was a bitch/jerk observation--even Dean fans commented on how they didn't think the show made this clear.

Edited December 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess that's what I don't get. How was it not clear when they showed Dean's flashbacks and the deal making parallel was there? I mean all signs pointed to Dean, but somehow that wasn't clear?

 

I saw that as Dean flashing back to his hell time. But AFAIR, there wasn't actually anything in the description that would exclude Sam. I can't find a transcript, but I don't recall "who was sent to hell via demon deal" or "became a master torturer in hell" being part of the conditions. The fact that the show choose to show the viewers a glimpse of Dean's hell time doesn't make it any more logical that Sam and Dean, both of whom have returned from hell, immediately assume Dean alone fulfills the conditions without a moment's thought.  

To me, it would be like saying a spell could only be performed by "a woman who had given birth," and automatically assuming that anyone who had had a C-section was excluded. That might be the case, as it is, famously, in Macbeth, where a prophecy that "no man of woman born" could kill Macbeth leaves room for Macduff, who was "From his mother's womb untimely ripped," to do the deed. But even there, Macbeth didn't hear the prophecy and say "Oh, better watch out for anyone born via C-section," because it is not obvious that "of woman born" has to literally mean "passed through the birth canal." 

I'm not annoyed that Sam's hell time didn't get a mention; that's been done to death. I was actually pleased to realize that the show did, in fact, remember that Dean has been to hell, given the surprising absence of all references to his hell time for years. It simply seemed to me -- and, apparently, to a lot of other people -- that both brothers could easily fulfill the conditions as stated, which meant that we needed a line of discussion or explanation as to why only Dean's blood would work. Presumably, there aren't tons of people who have been to hell and back. I'm not sure if any human other than Sam has been to hell and back outside of the demon deal paradigm. No reason that a spell would necessarily be so highly specific that it would anticipate what may have been a singular case of someone arriving in hell by other means an living to tell the tale.

[Aeryn13]

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I was actually pleased to realize that the show did, in fact, remember that Dean has been to hell, given the surprising absence of all references to his hell time for years. It simply seemed to me -- and, apparently, to a lot of other people -- that both brothers could easily fulfill the conditions as stated, which meant that we needed a line of discussion or explanation as to why only Dean's blood would work. 

While I agree one or two more lines of exposition to clarify would have been welcome, I think this was the inverse of all those scenes when bringing up Dean having been to hell (or connected to Michael) would have seemed natural and yet, no peep. Crickets.

This is the show`s writing style, only for once, it worked out in Dean`s favor which is why I can`t complain about it too much here. It working out one time in 13 years in a beneficial way? Not looking a gift horse in the mouth.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

They could have just said "died and went to hell", and that would have worked.  Dean was killed first and then went to hell due to his demon deal.  But either way, it was nice to get the acknowledgment.  Many of us have complained in the past how Dean's hell time has been all but forgotten, so to me, this was the writers way of atoning for that just a bit.  It was enough for me.

[Pondlass1]

15 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I just don't understand why some take it as a slight against Sam?

I don't take it as a slight against Sam.  It's how Sam is.  Neither brother is better than the other. Dean's got his own set of issues.  The characters are complex and we've grown to know and love them over the years.  We argue because we have a favourite and we take sides... but both brothers are damaged. They just deal differently.

[catrox14]

dunno, maybe it's just me who saw that link immediately because I am disgustingly obsessed with Dean's Hell time and status as the Righteous Man, that I just put it all together immediately with the flashbacks to Dean's eyes in Lazarus Rising, which immediately brought to mind the following;;

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PAMELA
Mmm-mmm-mmm. Dean Winchester. Out of the fire and back in the frying pan, huh? Makes you a rare individual.

DEAN
If you say so.

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Demon Waitress: Dean. To Hell and back. Aren't you a lucky duck.

Dean: That's me.
Demon Waitress: So you get to just stroll out of the Pit, huh? Tell me. What makes you so special?

Dean: I like to think it's because of my perky nipples. I don't know. Wasn't my doing, I don't know who pulled me out.

 

Millions of women have given birth, but Dean was back then the only human being who made crossroads deal, died by Hellhound, and was then resurrected as a human vs getting out of Hell as a demon.

Or in Luther's case, he  got out because he had Bart's bones and when the hellhounds dragged him to Hell he made a new deal, so I don't think he really spent any time in Hell.

Hmmm, that marginally reduces Dean' specialness. I'm gonna have to decide if I should be annoyed with Glynn on that point. Hmmmm

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, The signs didn't point to Dean, but Bart pointed to Dean without explaining why Dean and not just anyone else who had went to Hell and come back--like Sam. They showed flashbacks of Dean in Hell, but I thought those were actually pointless because we already knew Dean had been in Hell and they didn't actually explain why Sam's blood wouldn't work as well. It wasn't until the end of the episode they revealed the guy had also made a deal and was released from Hell, like Dean, but even then they didn't actually tie it back to make it clear that's why Dean's blood was needed and not just anyone who'd went to Hell and come back.

I'm guessing demons know the score even if hunters don't. They would know how the apocalypse was overted and since getting Sam's soul back in S6 was Crowley's leverage for a a while, I can't imagine they don't know about Sam being in the cage. 

But, they didn't have to even address Sam's Hell at all to make it clear from the jump. All Bart had to say was they needed the blood of someone who sold his soul, went to hell and came back. That would've made it clear from the jump that not just any person who had went to Hell and came back would do and not spoiled that the guy's deal wasn't selfish or self-serving.

Again, I don't think anyone cares that Sam's Hell wasn't mentioned, just didn't understand why it was Dean specifically they needed and not anyone else who had been to Hell. Personally, I don't think it was a bitch/jerk observation--even Dean fans commented on how they didn't think the show made this clear.

 

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not annoyed that Sam's hell time didn't get a mention; that's been done to death. I was actually pleased to realize that the show did, in fact, remember that Dean has been to hell, given the surprising absence of all references to his hell time for years. It simply seemed to me -- and, apparently, to a lot of other people -- that both brothers could easily fulfill the conditions as stated, which meant that we needed a line of discussion or explanation as to why only Dean's blood would work. Presumably, there aren't tons of people who have been to hell and back. I'm not sure if any human other than Sam has been to hell and back outside of the demon deal paradigm. No reason that a spell would necessarily be so highly specific that it would anticipate what may have been a singular case of someone arriving in hell by other means an living to tell the tale.

This and This.  A thousand times over.  Not annoyed at all that Dean's time in Hell was acknowledged, just a little confused as to how (at first at least) Sam didn't also fit the criteria.  

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/2/2017 at 10:38 AM, catrox14 said:

Sam only occasionally to others has defended Dean's life. He did it with Osiris even though that was kind of about Sam as much as Dean, re guilt trips. Then he defended Dean to Lucifer. But I'm still looking for examples of Sam acting protectively towards Dean whether Dean is around or not.

I'm a younger sibling and I spent a lot of time defending older siblings so maybe that's just my protective instincts in general.

To me, Sam being younger is no excuse for not defending Dean more than he is shown doing in the narrative. And if the writers are saying it's because Sam is younger and not used to being protective or what have you, that seems to have changed with Jack who he has defended to Dean and protected from Dean.

It depends on what kind of protective you mean. Protecting Dean's life - Sam does that sometime whether Dean is around or not. He did it with John in "In My Time of Dying." He did it with Lilith in ""No Rest..." He did it in his own brain in "The Man Who Knew too Much." He did it in "I Know What You Did..." again trying to make a deal for Dean. He did it in "Faith," admitting that to him, saving Dean was definitely worth it despite the cost. Sam said the same thing about releasing the Darkness. Though the threat was more indirect, Sam defended Dean to Cole concerning Cole's dad, too, saying "Whatever happened, Dean had a reason." And that was specifically after demon Dean made it clear he didn't care if Sam died and Cole said "You have no reason to protect him." And despite the negatives of Sam commenting on Dean not being strong enough in "On the Head of a Pin," Sam was very protective of Dean towards Castiel and very pissed off that Castiel allowed Dean to be hurt and then wouldn't heal him. Also In the beginning of season 10, Sam threatened Crowley for screwing with Dean when he thought Crowley had a demon using Dean's body. (Though the crack about "your brother and I were beginning to wonder if you'd hit another dog" likely didn't help - have I mentioned lately how much I hated the show repeatedly making that joke?) Maybe not defending Dean's intellect, but Sam definitely got protective and/or pissed off on Dean's behalf quite a few times in my opinion.

Non life-threatening division, there was Bobby in "How to Win Friends..." when Bobby was insisting that Dean was okay, but Sam was pushing for Dean needing help. Actually much of season 7, Sam was acting concerned and protective towards Dean. Quite a few of the end of episode talks in season 7 were Sam asking Dean if he was okay or in some way being concerned about Dean's well-being. There was Sam saying to God/Chuck in his prayer that Dean didn't deserve what was happening because he (Sam) was the one who messed up at the beginning of season 11. Then there was "Book of the Damned." In that episode Sam not only did things like put the book away for a while because he saw that it was affecting Dean and so he was trying to protect him from it, Sam - even though Charlie wasn't aware exactly what Sam was saying - was defending Dean's saving him through Gadreel, blaming himself for being angry at Dean for it.

I'm sure there's more stuff I'm forgetting, but I don't generally catalogue all of the times the brothers stick up for each other.

On 12/2/2017 at 3:34 PM, ILoveReading said:

It wouldn't have bugged so much if the writers had actually highlighted some of Dean's strengths but they didn't.   He was strictly comic relief in this ep.  They went out of their way to not only Sam as the book smart but also gave him the street smarts (for lack of a better term) and the ability to think quickly and come up with out of the box solutions.   Traits that are normally Deans. 

So I don't think it was their intention to say Sam is the smart one strictly based on academics.

It's well established that Dean is good with patterns and symbols.  So if the writers wanted to actually show the book vs street smarts they could have easily allowed Dean to figure out the path to the safe, or come up with the solution (which was very Dean like) to use Luther as a shield.   But that went to Sam.

I thought that they did highlight some of Dean's strengths. He anticipated that there would be a booby trap and saved Smash from getting shot by one of the needles due to his quick reflexes and protective instincts. As far as I'm concerned Dean doesn't corner the market in being able to think things through, so I appreciate when Sam also gets that chance. Especially considering one of Sam's "specialties" - Sam remembering and making connections about people's faces and photographs - was instead given to Jack a few episodes ago. Besides, I found the more Machiavellian aspect of using apparently unkillable though still human Luther as a shield to be more in Sam's wheelhouse than Dean's.

As for saying Sam was smart in non-academic ways... the considering making a likely bad deal with a demon, not realizing that Luther knew Sam was bluffing, and Sam blowing on the fire kind of spoke for themselves, in my opinion, that the writers don't always think Sam is smart in other ways.

On 12/1/2017 at 9:20 AM, Pondlass1 said:

 Dean's hunting talents and intuition have never been acknowledged by another character not ever.  Neither has his depression and torment for that matter....

I disagree. Sam acknowledged Dean's hunting talents in "All Hell Breaks Loose, pt 1" when he said "I was just thinking how much Dean would help right now." And Andy, too, entirely got excited when he thought Dean might also be there in Cold Oak. Sam acknowledged Dean's hunting skills when he told Charlie in "The Book of the Damned" that he couldn't hunt without Dean (also adding that he didn't want to either). There was "People are alive because of you" in "What is." Crowley obviously admires and acknowledges Dean's talents, especially when he laments the "denim clad nightmares," and how they - and especially Dean (as "Not Moose") - shouldn't be overlooked. I'm pretty sure John acknowledged it at one time or another as well.

As for Dean's depression and torment being acknowledged, there are even more examples of that. The end of "What Is..." has it. The end of "All Hell, pt 2," "Faith," the end of "Mannequin 3...", in "On the Head of a Pin" (by both Sam and Anna), Anna also in "Heaven and Hell," and Sam in that episode, too. Sam in much of season 7 as I mentioned above. I'm sure Castiel has acknowledged it somewhere more than once - I know definitely in that episode in season 8 where he learns that Dean changed the scenario from purgatory in his head (but I mostly hate season 8, so I don't know which episode it is) and the "Don't you think you deserve to be saved" thing in season 4, I think. Charlie probably did at some point also, likely in that Pac Man episode.

Those are just the ones I remember.

On 12/1/2017 at 10:40 AM, catrox14 said:

No one has said that Sam doesn't praise Dean. We are saying he doesn't praise nor defend Dean to OTHER PEOPLE.

And even some of Sam's praising is to butter up Dean for his ask.  I give him one and that was him saying to Lucifer "I always bet on Dean" (which is factually not true but that was a point when Sam defended Dean. Not about his intellect but his willingness to save Sam.

I gave a few examples of this above. The Cole one especially applies here. Also the Charlie example. And I think Sam also told Lucifer that Dean would kick his ass.

And even though Dean is more likely to defend Sam to other people, he's also been known to cut him down to other people, too. His "I had more fun with you than I've had with Sam in years" to Castiel was a good example, along with "If anyone needs a chaperone..." and the recent "Well, Sam's plans don't always work." Sam had his bad period of doing that kind of thing in season 4, but most of that was to Ruby and under the influence. (I'm not counting Dean's under the influence of the mark stuff or Demon Dean's remarks to Cole and likely Crowley).

On 12/2/2017 at 6:55 PM, catrox14 said:

I think Dean does understand Sam better than Sam understands Dean because he essentially helped to raise Sam.

Dean is 4 years older than Sam and was responsible for his well being for his entire childhood and young adulthood. That's why Dean knew Sam wasn't right when he came back from Hell. That's why Dean has mostly been right about Sam going down the wrong paths and trying to stop him. 

Because Dean DOES understand Sam even if he disagrees with him. And what he didn't understand, he learns and accepts eventually, like Sam leaving for school and telling him he was right for leaving.

So yes, I don't think it is equivalent in the reverse. Sam doesn't know Dean but Dean knows Sam because of their dynamic.

I think that there are arguments to be made both ways here. If you asked me if my mom knew me more than I knew my mom, I don't think I could answer that question and be sure that I was right, but I'm pretty sure my mom mostly knows things from when I was younger and not a lot of things that have changed from how I was back then.

As for the show, there are examples both ways. Dean, for example, didn't know that Sam prayed every night when he was little, despite likely often sleeping in the same motel room while growing up. Sam's a little close to the vest about some things, so it may be that he's a little harder to know some things about.

Despite only being back with Dean for a little while, Sam knew the shifter wasn't Dean almost immediately, and I don't think he would have been able to do that if he didn't know Dean well. He could also tell Dean wasn't right after their dad died and that Dean was hiding in bravado in season 3.

I think who the writer is can have something to do with it also. There was the awful "Swap Meat" where Dean didn't even realize that that wasn't Sam - which I actually call bullshit on.  So I'm sure there are also eamples going the other way. I generally thought season 2 and season 6 - where as you said, Dean did realize something was wrong with Sam - and season 7 - where Sam realized that Dean was depressed and in trouble - where probably the three more consistent seasons for Sam and Dean's understanding of each other and characterization. It's one of the things I give Gamble a lot of credit for.

I also don't agree that Dean necessarily entirely accepted Sam going away to school either. He seemed to momentarily, but then when he got angry with Sam in season 4, it all came back up again via "Dark Side..." and he changed his mind culminating in "maybe he never really was my brother."

Quote

@gonzosgirrl: Just look at the examples over the course of the show how Dean lights up/gets shy/doesn't believe/fronts gruffly when he's paid a rare compliment. Imagine how nice it would for him to get that from his brother once in a while (when he wasn't dead or dying, or Sam wasn't actively trying to get something from him). Necessary? No. But this fan sure would like to see it.

I'm not sure what you're meaning here. Sam compliments Dean a lot. And Sam's compliments are often heartfelt rather than teasing, which means Sam opens himself up to "no chick flick moments" or "kill me now" type responses when he gives them. Over in the Dean thread, there's a video giving examples of times people on the show have expressed appreciation of and/or complimented Dean. Sam features heavily in that video and most of those examples are not when Dean was dead or dying or when Sam wanted something. Granted the Carver years are relatively light on the examples, but I mainly blame Carver for that as other showrunners' periods don't seem to have that problem.

So if you really would like to see it, watch the video and you'll see many examples that you may have previously missed or forgotten. Considering the video of just the brief moments is, I think, over 12 minutes long, I also wouldn't necessarily say that Dean being paid compliments is a rare occurrence on the show, but that could be just me.

Edited to add: Rats, the video (which was on page 14 of the Dean thread) is no longer available. So you'll just have to trust me that there were a lot of Sam moments. However, there is a comment that you watched it at the time that it was posted, so there is that.

Edited December 4, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Katy M]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:46 PM, catrox14 said:

How would Bart have addressed it? I'm not even sure most demons even KNOW Sam was in the cage?  Remember when Sam said 'Who told you that?" to Roy and Walt? It was obviously not something that was supposedly general knowledge. The hunter at Asa Fox's funeral was like "Hey were you really Lucifer's vessel" but there was no indication they knew he'd been in Hell. Just that he got possessed by Lucifer. So maybe it's not even a known thing by a lot of demons that Sam did that. I dunno, just musing.

But Dean was known in Hell. He was the apprentice to Hell's master torturer for some time. So IMO that also had to do with why Sam wasn't mentioned.

It must have been in the last of Chuck's books, though, because that one girl said (I'm going to use quotes, but I'm paraphrasing) "That's their half-brother, Adam.  He's still in the cage with Michael and Lucifer."  Technically, she should have thought Sam was still down there also, but that's beside the point at the moment. 

Plus, Crowley knew that Sam had been in the cage, so I'm sure he passed that on to at least a few demons.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It must have been in the last of Chuck's books, though, because that one girl said (I'm going to use quotes, but I'm paraphrasing) "That's their half-brother, Adam.  He's still in the cage with Michael and Lucifer."  Technically, she should have thought Sam was still down there also, but that's beside the point at the moment. 

Plus, Crowley knew that Sam had been in the cage, so I'm sure he passed that on to at least a few demons.

It was in Chuck's books which were fiction to everyone. I suppose a couple of hunters read his books and decided it was real but in general no one believed them to be true. I'm not sure why Crowley would have passed that on to other demons. I don't know what that would have gotten him. Like what benefit would it have been to him to tell demons Sam had been in the Cage with Lucifer but he got out. Did Crowley know Sam's soul was still in the Cage? I can't remember.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was in Chuck's books which were fiction to everyone. I suppose a couple of hunters read his books and decided it was real but in general no one believed them to be true. I'm not sure why Crowley would have passed that on to other demons. I don't know what that would have gotten him. Like what benefit would it have been to him to tell demons Sam had been in the Cage with Lucifer but he got out. Did Crowley know Sam's soul was still in the Cage? I can't remember.

I thought we were talking about demons.  We know that Crowley read the books.  I would imagine he would have assigned it as reading, in a "know your enemy" kind of move. Remember, he's the only who doesn't estimate those denim-wrapped nightmares:)

I don't know when Crowley knew that his soul was left in the cage but he mentioned it in Family Matters (the same episode we were informed), so he certainly knew by that time.

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did Crowley know Sam's soul was still in the Cage? I can't remember.

Yes. That's why Sam and Dean worked for Crowley at all. Crowley told them he would get Sam's soul back if they kept hunting alphas for him.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought we were talking about demons.  We know that Crowley read the books.  I would imagine he would have assigned it as reading, in a "know your enemy" kind of move. Remember, he's the only who doesn't estimate those denim-wrapped nightmares:)

I don't know when Crowley knew that his soul was left in the cage but he mentioned it in Family Matters (the same episode we were informed), so he certainly knew by that time.

Sorry I was talking to the general point of not that many people would know about Sam being in Hell or in the Cage at all.

I'm still not sure  why Crowley would want other demons  to know as much as he does, given he's always been a power/knowledge broker. Given some demons would gladly overthrow Crowley and still worshiped Lucifer, then I would think knowing that Sam was in Lucifer in the Cage would be of some value to rebel demons in some way.  I don't see how Crowley telling them that Lucifer is in Sam's in the Cage helps Crowley's position.

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes. That's why Sam and Dean worked for Crowley at all. Crowley told them he would get Sam's soul back if they kept hunting alphas for him.

Oh right. But that doesn't mean Crowley told anyone else.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh right. But that doesn't mean Crowley told anyone else.

No, but I think there were demons present when he made his big speech about how he could get Sam's soul back and Grampy was still working for Crowley and with demons and he knew. Not to mention that Meg and her posse knew.  So, I don't think it was a well-kept secret if it even was a secret to begin with.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, but I think there were demons present when he made his big speech about how he could get Sam's soul back and Grampy was still working for Crowley and with demons and he knew. Not to mention that Meg and her posse knew.  So, I don't think it was a well-kept secret if it even was a secret to begin with.

I can't even imagine how it could have been a secret.  The demons had to have known that Lucifer was wearing Sam.  I don't know how long he was in him, but I kind of got the feeling it was at least a few days.  He would have been conducting business with his minions.  They know what Sam looks like.

They would know that there was supposed to be a big fight between Michael and Lucifer to determine the ruler of the world.  It would kind of be noticeable that this did not happen. 

I think it would eventually come out that Lucifer was back in the cage.  We know that at least a few demons were aware of that in Out of the Darkness or maybe The Bad Seed, somewhere in there, because they were worried about the cage being cracked and could hear Lucifer and Michael trying to warn them, or something like that.  I don't know if they just realized that Lucifer was in there, or if they had known it all along, but it weems likely that the probably already knew.

So, it doesn't seem odd that most of the demons could put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Lucifer ended up in the cage while still in Sam. 

While not a demon, Balthazar knew and there wasn't really anything to indicate that Cas told him.  Although he might have. 

I just can't really think of a good reason most demons would not know this as there are too many sources of the information.  The books.  Crowley.  All the angels knew.  Sam and Dean knew.  They were working with demons to get Sam's soul back.  There was more than just Crowley around.  Christian was a demon and he knew, who knows who he passed it on.  Dean made a deal with Death.  I'm thinking that couldn't have been done under a microscope since he did take over the job for a whole day.  I don't know if Cas had to pass any demons on his way in or out to get Sam.  I could go either way on that.  And a whole bunch of demons took over that mental hospital Sam was in. They might have had an inside track being around when Sam having a cage breakdown, though I'm not sure any survived that, but it doesn't mean that info didn't get passed on.

What's that saying?  3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead.  Too many people and demons knew about this to keep it under wraps, assuming anyone was even concerned with that.

[catrox14]

I'm putting this here in case it gets into any B v J stuff...but it's mostly a study of Dean. I'm not sure I agree with all of it but I found it interesting. It's a LONG ass read so settle in.

This is a really interesting study of Dean this season and what might be going on with Dean.

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-season-13-dean-winchester-death-grief-arc/

Features

Supernatural

Dean Winchester and the study of death in ‘Supernatural’ season 13

Just putting the opening part in here to give you an idea of it's premise.

Quote

After all, the last three consecutive seasons, plus several others in the past, have hit the ground running, dropping us immediately into a big-bad-based story – Dean’s descent with the Mark of Cain, Amara, the British Men of Letters, Lucifer being free – that remained the through line until that particular season’s finale, or even beyond.

But season 13 is a different animal. In a departure from those aforementioned patterns of the past, the showrunners chose instead to spend a full quarter of the season – six episodes, an entire cycle of contributions from every staff writer, an arc in and of itself – focusing on something else entirely.

It has, primarily, been an extended period of mourning. This choice is a very different sort of lesson for – and about – the boys, and I for one am overwhelmed and elated by them choosing to take the time to teach it to us, by what we’ve learned.

After all, the last three consecutive seasons, plus several others in the past, have hit the ground running, dropping us immediately into a big-bad-based story – Dean’s descent with the Mark of Cain, Amara, the British Men of Letters, Lucifer being free – that remained the through line until that particular season’s finale, or even beyond.

But season 13 is a different animal. In a departure from those aforementioned patterns of the past, the showrunners chose instead to spend a full quarter of the season – six episodes, an entire cycle of contributions from every staff writer, an arc in and of itself – focusing on something else entirely.

It has, primarily, been an extended period of mourning. This choice is a very different sort of lesson for – and about – the boys, and I for one am overwhelmed and elated by them choosing to take the time to teach it to us, by what we’ve learned.

Picking up immediately where their May finale left off – with Jack the nephilim, born and fully grown within the space of a heartbeat; Mary trapped with Lucifer on the other side of a portal to a post-apocalyptic alternate universe; and Castiel’s body lying in the dirt, an unprecedented level of wingprint-burn dead – the first five episodes were almost exclusively dedicated to the differing responses and priorities of Sam and Dean in the wake of this trauma, with the sixth solidifying the message being broadcast by showing us Dean’s complete paradigm shift when Castiel returns to them.

Unless you count Jack (which I absolutely do not, given the lengths to which Supernatural has gone to force us immediately to root for him) no big bad was introduced from the get-go. Instead, the overwhelming problem during those first six episodes, the continuing cloud hanging over heads, is solely this sense of loss and how it is affecting the boys.

Edited December 7, 2017 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm putting this here in case it gets into any B v J stuff...but it's mostly a study of Dean. I'm not sure I agree with all of it but I found it interesting. It's a LONG ass read so settle in.

This is a really interesting study of Dean this season. I don't agree with all of it, but it's an interesting take about the season. And what might be going on with Dean.

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-season-13-dean-winchester-death-grief-arc/

Features

Supernatural

Dean Winchester and the study of death in ‘Supernatural’ season 13

Just putting the opening part in here to give you an idea of it's premise.

Interesting read. Thanks for posting @catrox14.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Interesting read. Thanks for posting @catrox14.

It's funny, for a piece about Dean, the author gave me a different perspective of Sam which I appreciated.

Edited December 7, 2017 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's funny, for a piece about Dean, the author gave me a different perspective of Sam which I appreciated.

I agree. I liked this thought:

Dean’s nihilism and uncontrollable despair hits him (and us) so hard because he believes that he’s lost the best chance at happiness that he’ll ever have, but for Sam, it’s more a case of same shit, different day, we’ll get through it, we’ll find a way. His needs weren’t being met yet anyway – he simply did not have the “everything” that Dean feels they had lost in the first place. It doesn’t mean he loves the other individuals less – though he certainly has different relationships to Dean with each, representing different things, another factor that this season highlights in multiple ways. Sam loves differently, wants differently, and is affected differently, sometimes, in the past, to the point of his needs being in direct opposition to Dean’s.

And this one:

I’m oddly reminded of the episode “Bad Day at Black Rock,” where Sam is cursed with bad luck and is just utterly incapable, to great comedic effect, of handling it, mentally and emotionally. That episode always stands out to me as such a uniquely perfect portrayal of character because if that had happened to Dean, he would have been mostly fine.

You know why? Because Dean expects the worst, he takes the hits as they come, he juggles problems and pleasures, drops balls and picks up new ones, never expects to keep them all in the air at the same time. Dean’s a master tactician, but Sam is all strategy.

Edit to add; I liked this too:

Sam accepts Castiel’s death. He doesn’t like it, but he accepts it and seems to view it as a sad loss that he can move on from. He cannot accept the great unknown of Mary, because there’s a chance that she could be saved and because he feels personally wronged.

Dean accepts Mary’s loss, because he’s already grieved her, and come to terms with losing her long ago. He cannot accept the finality of Castiel’s death, because he’d gotten to the point where the idea of living without Cas is as impossible as the idea of living without Sam.

Edited December 7, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Dean accepts Mary’s loss, because he’s already grieved her, and come to terms with losing her long ago. He cannot accept the finality of Castiel’s death, because he’d gotten to the point where the idea of living without Cas is as impossible as the idea of living without Sam

This is where I've been at with Dean's grief, and unusual willingness to not question Cas' return, which I still think will bite Dean in the ass. Cas is as much family to Dean as Sam now just in a different way. Given Cas' other impossible resurrections and returns from death, Dean expected Chuck to answer his prayer and when he didn't that was it for Dean. He gave up. He was hopeless. It was just too much for him on top of everything else. IMO he can't fathom life without Cas  at this point of his life.  IMO, even when Cas goes off, on some level Dean, expects him to come back home. And the bunker is Cas' home now per Dean telling him "Let's go home" at the end of Stuck in the Middle. So yeah, for me I've always seen Dean's grief about Cas as very different than Sam's and I'm glad the show has spent time with it.

[DeeDee79]

I did find it interesting that she went into such depth on Dean; in the comments she stated that she's a total Sam girl. Despite that one of the comments complained about the article because it wasn't complimentary enough to Sam *sigh*

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is where I've been at with Dean's grief, and unusual willingness to not question Cas' return, which I still think will bite Dean in the ass. Cas is as much family to Dean as Sam now just in a different way. Given Cas' other impossible resurrections and returns from death, Dean expected Chuck to answer his prayer and when he didn't that was it for Dean. He gave up. He was hopeless. It was just too much for him on top of everything else. IMO he can't fathom life without Cas  at this point of his life.  IMO, even when Cas goes off, on some level Dean, expects him to come back home. And the bunker is Cas' home now per Dean telling him "Let's go home" at the end of Stuck in the Middle. So yeah, for me I've always seen Dean's grief about Cas as very different than Sam's and I'm glad the show has spent time with it.

I agree & I also thought that this part of the article further supports this:

Some fans may see this as negative, but to me it’s actually amazing – because it shows that their relationship is finally balanced. Sam is not Dean’s job any more. They are equal partners. The fact that there are other people that have the capacity to break Dean’s heart is a GOOD thing, a healthy thing – inasmuch as this level of grief can be healthy – because this love from him shows a trust and a widening of his safety net.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I did find it interesting that she went into such depth on Dean; in the comments she stated that she's a total Sam girl. Despite that one of the comments complained about the article because it wasn't complimentary enough to Sam *sigh*

That's nuts. I took issue with some of her view of Dean TBH and thought she was pretty complimentary of Sam. 

 

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I did find it interesting that she went into such depth on Dean; in the comments she stated that she's a total Sam girl. Despite that one of the comments complained about the article because it wasn't complimentary enough to Sam *sigh*

I agree & I also thought that this part of the article further supports this:

Some fans may see this as negative, but to me it’s actually amazing – because it shows that their relationship is finally balanced. Sam is not Dean’s job any more. They are equal partners. The fact that there are other people that have the capacity to break Dean’s heart is a GOOD thing, a healthy thing – inasmuch as this level of grief can be healthy – because this love from him shows a trust and a widening of his safety net.

That's the part that really struck me. And it really goes along with Dean being forced to let Sam go into battle without him in 12.22. I thought it was plotonium to do it but it does shift to an extent. That's why they made a big production of him becoming General Winchester without Dean and Dean having to accept it. (I don't care for HOW they did it)

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's nuts. I took issue with some of her view of Dean TBH and thought she was pretty complimentary of Sam. 

So did I. I guess the commenter was expecting the article to bash Dean since she's a Sam girl but she seemed to have an overall appreciation of both brothers despite her preference. That said I did disagree with some of her viewpoints regarding Sam & Dean but it was still a good read.

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the part that really struck me. And it really goes along with Dean being forced to let Sam go into battle without him in 12.22. I thought it was plotonium to do it but it does shift to an extent. That's why they made a big production of him becoming General Winchester without Dean and Dean having to accept it. (I don't care for HOW they did it)

Yes, I didn't care much for how that came to pass but I'm all for a lessening of the codependency between the brothers.

[FlickChick]

@catrox14, thanks for posting the article. I read it all and thought it was excellent - especially the part about Cas' "death" causing Dean to begin to mourn all the losses he has felt and never truly dealt with because in his mind, he always had to "keep on going". Any grief counselor will tell you that after a loss, you must face and deal with grief in order to truly heal and be able to go on in a good way. Also, if a person has buried grief, then a significant loss can and will bring up all the unresolved grief stored inside the person's heart and soul. So I believe that's what has happened to Dean. JMO

[ILoveReading]

I’m not really sure of the best place to voice this thought in so I’ll do it here to be on the safe side. 

I’m very torn at the momemt  

With everything they are putting Dean through and Dean clearly at the end of his rope the only satisfactory resolution is some kind of breakdown. There needs to be something big. Along the lines of Sam at he end of sacrifice where Dean just get to unload 35 years of surpressed emotion. 

But at the same time I’m just so over mopey depressed Dean. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I’m not really sure of the best place to voice this thought in so I’ll do it here to be on the safe side. 

I’m very torn at the momemt  

With everything they are putting Dean through and Dean clearly at the end of his rope the only satisfactory resolution is some kind of breakdown. There needs to be something big. Along the lines of Sam at he end of sacrifice where Dean just get to unload 35 years of surpressed emotion. 

But at the same time I’m just so over mopey depressed Dean. 

Based on Dean apparently blowing a gasket and kidnapping Kaia and threatening her so she would help them find Mary, I think you might get that.

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Based on Dean apparently blowing a gasket and kidnapping Kaia and threatening her so she would help them find Mary, I think you might get that.

It’s why I’m torn. It’s the only way this storyline can have any satisfactory resolution. But at he same time I’m worried the writers will use it as an excuse to  hand the Michael storyline to Sam so the other part of me just wants it to go away. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

Honestly, it feels like there is no room for Dean on this show anymore. 

Hunting isn't this cold hard lonely life anymore.  It's a magical fantasy quest that anyone with an app and an attitude can be good at.

Since 12B Dean's character just feels like he's adrift.  Sam was enamored with the fancy toy of the brits and could have cared less (and still doesn't) about how Dean feels and when that didn't work out he appointed himself a leader.  He now comes up with most of the plans, bonds with most of the guest stars and takes the lead most times.  He really doesn't need Dean anymore. 

If I didn't know better I would almost think they were grooming Jack to be Dean's replacement.

Cas doesn't stick around long enough to give Dean the time of day anymore, despite Dean doing not much more than worrying or fussing over Cas.

If Dean packed it it in at the start of this season and drove off on a motorcycle not a single major plot point changes this season.

So my (rhetorical) question is What is Dean's purpose these days?

Edited December 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

So my (rhetorical) question is What is Dean's purpose these days?

I know it's rhetorical but I'll answer.

This is Dean's long goodbye. Someone else said that this could be a meta commentary that Dean is a dinosaur now. My only hope is that Dean dies a heroic death but given his suicidal tendencies...I am no longer convinced that will happen. I think Dean might just die a pathetic sad death to be a lesson to others.

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So my (rhetorical) question is What is Dean's purpose these days?

To continue to save the day.   I'd not bother with this show if it wasn't for Dean.  I never know what he'll do next... always surprises me. Like who in a zillion years thought he would turn around and gank Death!!!  The bugger!!

I'd be more concerned if I were a Sam girl... or a Castiel girl.  Cas is inevitably sent away on a mission to fuck up and be boring.  Sam squints and patiently sighs  to show how much he's improved since Samelia. But Dean remains wild and crazy action man - just like in the beginning.  He's the only exciting unpredictable reckless character in the bunch.  I don't want Dean to talk softly and get hit with a big stick.

Just my opinion.  I feel I'm alone here.  :-)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So my (rhetorical) question is What is Dean's purpose these days?

Slapstick comedy, it looks like

I groaned so much about the "fight" scenes in the latest episode because once again, Dean gets his weapon knocked out of his hand, knocked down and has to be saved. Didn`t we have Deansel in distress for fucking 9 episodes in a row now? With his abysmal track record in 12.B is the character capable of winning a single fight anymore on his own? 

But the gun-on-Kaya-scene was so bad in my eyes. Like, I do enjoy dark arcs if the writing is there for it and they get proper set-up and gravitas. But instead we`ve had grieving-depressed Dean who was relentlessly hounded by Sam (which apparently was a-okay) and he did grief wrong, as exposited by Mouthpiece McHorrible Shapeshifter. Then he apologizes for being a dick for the milionth time. Then he is apparently suicidal - or something. The Cas comes back and it`s all goofy comedy for two episodes. And now he is supposedly dark and off his rocker.

There isn`t remotely a believable emotional throughline for me. And I didn`t even for a second think Kaya was remotely in danger. 

Meanwhile Sam looks shocked but doesn`t intervene. Berens clearly wrote it as Sam being the moral, innocent party, despite partaking in the act via passivity. Wow, usually, teflon only materializes after the fact, not during. 

And no way will this have any kind of resolution or pay-off because why would it? It will be followed by OTT slapstick and even more Deansel in distress in no time. 

Yes, he doesn`t really have a purpose anymore since all his capabilities have been considerably nerfed and handed to Sam. 

The kicker? It is still better than 12.B because the character is awake. Not contributing much but at least awake. Which is a step up from waking coma. 

Oh, and Berens at this point might be worse for me than Dabb. For two years now I think he wrote utter trash in regards to Dean. If it ain`t Sam-stanning, it is stanning-anyone-but-Dean. 

Quote

Cas is inevitably sent away on a mission to fuck up and be boring.

Gotta hand it to the writers. He started out with the best potential storyline, being in a new supernatural realm and even got a cool escape. One episode later and he is dumbly captured and being impersonated offscreen in phone conversations. Even Demon!Dean didn`t go to shit that fast. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know it's rhetorical but I'll answer.

This is Dean's long goodbye. Someone else said that this could be a meta commentary that Dean is a dinosaur now. My only hope is that Dean dies a heroic death but given his suicidal tendencies...I am no longer convinced that will happen. I think Dean might just die a pathetic sad death to be a lesson to others.

I wish I could disagree with you but sadly I can't.  The current writing staff (Yockey being the exception) see Dean as the one note comic side kick to super smart, super empathetic, Sam.  That's how they're writing him.

Jensen's trying to fight it but there is only so much he can do with what isn't there.

My prediction for the first scene of the next ep, since Sam has to one up everything Dean does, I'm guessing Dean will trip over his shoe lace, drop his weapon and Sam will kill a dinosaur and then brag about it for the 4 episodes. 

I wish I could believe it was leading somewhere, but Dean's grief arc was was poorly handled and then fizzled out when Cas showed up, like I figured it would.  These last few eps we didn't really see signs of it so its another reason why Dean's actions were so shocking.  (and not in a good way.)

I think the only thing they are doing here is setting the stage, to hand Michael to Sam.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think the only thing they are doing here is setting the stage, to hand Michael to Sam.

Michael will go to Jack. Otherwise, pretty spot-on analysis.  

Edited December 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

To continue to save the day.   I'd not bother with this show if it wasn't for Dean.  I never know what he'll do next... always surprises me. Like who in a zillion years thought he would turn around and gank Death!!!  The bugger!!

I'd be more concerned if I were a Sam girl... or a Castiel girl.  Cas is inevitably sent away on a mission to fuck up and be boring.  Sam squints and patiently sighs  to show how much he's improved since Samelia. But Dean remains wild and crazy action man - just like in the beginning.  He's the only exciting unpredictable reckless character in the bunch.  I don't want Dean to talk softly and get hit with a big stick.

Just my opinion.  I feel I'm alone here.  :-)

You make a great point. While I disagreed with the kidnapping scene, overall Dean is still a very major portion of the show. They seem to have sidelined Sam completely. And Cas has barely had an impact this season. 

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

You make a great point. While I disagreed with the kidnapping scene, overall Dean is still a very major portion of the show. They seem to have sidelined Sam completely. And Cas has barely had an impact this season. 

I disagree Sam has been completely sidelined.  It was him that had the majority of jack scenes and was responsible for getting Jack off to the right start.  Dean wasn't a part of that.  

You can't remove Sam from the Jack plot without rewriting the majority of it, where as you can easily remove Dean.

Quote

To continue to save the day

We are 9 for 9 with Dean needing saving this season, and he needed to be saved a lot in 12B.  He's not doing much saving these days. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish I could believe it was leading somewhere, but Dean's grief arc was was poorly handled and then fizzled out when Cas showed up, like I figured it would.  These last few eps we didn't really see signs of it so its another reason why Dean's actions were so shocking.  (and not in a good way.)

I didn't have any trouble with Dean's grief arc other than everyone around him telling him he was grieving wrong. Like I totally did believe that Dean was broken and distraught. He had given up. So I was okay with that. Cas comes back, Dean has a win so he kind of bounced back.

He's even being shown to be respecting Cas' plead to "Let me do this" when Dean was insisting on going with him. He wasn't happy about it but he acquiesced. Why he's not the one calling Cas is beyond me other than plot, plot, plot to make sure no one pings it's not Cas because Dean would.

I dunno, I'd like to believe this is headed somewhere positive and interesting for Dean but I'm skeptical.

And now that Dean is in a totally different universe than Mary or Michael, I'm taking Dean having anything to do with Michael off the table. I mean at this point, I don't see either Sam or Dean saving Mary. It will be Jack. Jack will fight Michael and kill him and that will be that.

[Myrelle]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Slapstick comedy, it looks like

I groaned so much about the "fight" scenes in the latest episode because once again, Dean gets his weapon knocked out of his hand, knocked down and has to be saved. Didn`t we have Deansel in distress for fucking 9 episodes in a row now? With his abysmal track record in 12.B is the character capable of winning a single fight anymore on his own? 

But the gun-on-Kaya-scene was so bad in my eyes. Like, I do enjoy dark arcs if the writing is there for it and they get proper set-up and gravitas. But instead we`ve had grieving-depressed Dean who was relentlessly hounded by Sam (which apparently was a-okay) and he did grief wrong, as exposited by Mouthpiece McHorrible Shapeshifter. Then he apologizes for being a dick for the milionth time. Then he is apparently suicidal - or something. The Cas comes back and it`s all goofy comedy for two episodes. And now he is supposedly dark and off his rocker.

There isn`t remotely a believable emotional throughline for me. And I didn`t even for a second think Kaya was remotely in danger. 

Meanwhile Sam looks shocked but doesn`t intervene. Berens clearly wrote it as Sam being the moral, innocent party, despite partaking in the act via passivity. Wow, usually, teflon only materializes after the fact, not during. 

And no way will this have any kind of resolution or pay-off because why would it? It will be followed by OTT slapstick and even more Deansel in distress in no time. 

Yes, he doesn`t really have a purpose anymore since all his capabilities have been considerably nerfed and handed to Sam. 

The kicker? It is still better than 12.B because the character is awake. Not contributing much but at least awake. Which is a step up from waking coma. 

Oh, and Berens at this point might be worse for me than Dabb. For two years now I think he wrote utter trash in regards to Dean. If it ain`t Sam-stanning, it is stanning-anyone-but-Dean. 

Gotta hand it to the writers. He started out with the best potential storyline, being in a new supernatural realm and even got a cool escape. One episode later and he is dumbly captured and being impersonated offscreen in phone conversations. Even Demon!Dean didn`t go to shit that fast. 

I completely understand these feelings and have, more often than not, felt them myself and, as you've pointed out, with very good reason coming strictly from the storyboard and writing.

No Buts here either. I've been away from the fandom for over a week, and just caught up with the last two episodes last night and this season could very easily go to the Jack character more than any other IMO also. And I, too, think that it will wind up turning out that way.

I guess being away just makes me feel less for and about the show, in general. I'd love to be one of those people who've quit fandom and just binge watch the season after it's over, but it's all Ackles' fault that I'm still watching in present time. Apparently no matter how bad the writing for his character gets, and no matter that they've given pretty much every one of his positive core characteristics away to Sam and other characters on this show, I still miss The Ackting.

I honestly wish they would kill Dean off rather than continue writing him as they have in S12B to the present sans any pay-off whatsoever for both character and actor. As ever, for me, the season rides on what they do by season's end and the finale and I, too, have very little hope for anything better than a support role, in that, yet again this season. Not with their shiny new toy named Jack continuing on with this show, anyway.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

From the 13.09 episode thread.

Quote

Sam and Jack are going to get off scot free on this and it will be because Dean takes all the heat.

Truer words were never spoken.  The writers have Jack and Sam on some kind of pedestal and even if they do make a mistake, the show goes to great length to make sure its correct.

When Jack killed the guard we got long uninterrupted scenes of Jack showing remorse and more cute kicked "I just want to help you" puppy jack.  When it was revealed that Sam was using Jack, the problem wasn't Sam's actions it was that Dean told on him.

Then we get another long uninterrupted scene where Sam gets to show remorse and tell Jack he really does care about him.

We don't get that with Dean.  Even with his grief.  We got a blink and you miss it shot of Dean drinking and and unending Sam bonding with Jack scene. 

So I don't expect the show to allow Dean to talk about having hell flashbacks or unbareable guilt at writing Mary off.  I think they're either going to ignore it or just have Jody and/or Donna rake him over the coals and Dean apologize for being a dick for the umpteenth time.

At least this time the apology is warranted. 

[Aeryn13]

Yeah, I`m kind of dreading how that will be adressed in the mid-Season Opener. 

Right now I`m also uncomfortably reminded of one of the horrible Bucklemming interviews where they said the characters would learn (or the audience would learn) who they really are through how they handle current events. Gee, from the "Dean is a born killer" people, I can totally see how they would think "well, Dean is finally going to realize how much of a horrible abuser he truly is" is just gravy. 

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/8/2017 at 3:59 PM, ILoveReading said:

Then we get another long uninterrupted scene where Sam gets to show remorse and tell Jack he really does care about him.

We don't get that with Dean. 

I'm not sure what you are meaning here by not getting that with Dean. Dean did get to tell Jack that he did good, and during the discussion in the car, it was made clear - unless I misinterpreted something - that due to Dean seeing Jack trying and for what he did with Castiel, Dean considers Jack one of them. I'm not really sure how much more is needed there - Dean isn't the long-winded talky type. A (relatively)* long scene wouldn't be in tune with the character in my opinion. Sam is the more talky one.

* I really don't see Sam as getting all this extra screentime myself.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean isn't the long-winded talky type. A (relatively)* long scene wouldn't be in tune with the character in my opinion.

Dean has had plenty of scenes where he gives a long speech about how much someone means to him. He's had those talks with Bobby, Cas ,Sam, Claire & I believe with Charlie. He isn't the "no chick flick moments" character that he was in the first season.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Dean has had plenty of scenes where he gives a long speech about how much someone means to him. He's had those talks with Bobby, Cas ,Sam, Claire & I believe with Charlie. He isn't the "no chick flick moments" character that he was in the first season.

Fair enough.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure what you are meaning here by not getting that with Dean. Dean did get to tell Jack that he did good, and during the discussion in the car, it was made clear - unless I misinterpreted something - that due to Dean seeing Jack trying and for what he did with Castiel, Dean considers Jack one of them. I'm not really sure how much more is needed there - Dean isn't the long-winded talky type. A (relatively)* long scene wouldn't be in tune with the character in my opinion. Sam is the more talky one.

* I really don't see Sam as getting all this extra screentime myself.

IMo, Sam has been getting lions share of the dialogue in the more talky  scenes between he and Dean. Dean seems to get the Lions share of the dialogue when it's between he and other characters. When Sam is in scenes with other characters it seems more equal.

which I wonder if that's intentional to show that Dean and Sam just do not talk to and relate to each other as they do other people.

Sam spends a lot time expressing himself about  things unrelated to Dean to, and about Dean himself, to Dean. He's getting the Lions share of lore and mythology discussions which I think is because he's generally now the one doing research.

But Dean is shown expressing his emotions to other people not named Sam and that might be why it seems like it's less between them because that is what their dynamic kind of has been since s4.

[catrox14]

Huh. So I was watching Sympathy for the Devil and for some reason I never remembered that Chuck told Dean that Sam's eyes went black when he was killing Lilith.  That makes everything fall into place for me why Dean couldn't be around Sam anymore at that point and why he didn't think they could ever be what they were before.

And IMO, Jensen played it, as though that news shook Dean to his core and IMO at that point he probably thought Sam was already going dark side.  So his attitude towards Sam in Fallen Idols makes sense if it happened before The End. Those episodes absolutely should have been flipped.

His growing distrust and belief that Sam would say yes to Lucifer makes all the more sense beyond the Ruby betrayal. OMG!  Wow. And IMO, Dean's worries being so treated with contempt by those around him in PoNR are even more aggravating. And IMO his possible decision to say yes to Michael, is actually even more reasonable to me. Obviously, Dean carried that information from Chuck all along s5.  

Wow. How did I miss that before? LOL at me.

[companionenvy]

I honestly don't get how that changes things. Presumably, Sam's eyes went black because he had  so much demon blood in his system that he started displaying demonic qualities.  If he stopped taking demon blood, his eyes would no longer be at risk of turning black, just like he'd no longer be able to exorcise demons with his mind. 

I can see it being jarring to recognize just how far down the path to hell Sam had gone, but I don't think it fundamentally alters the situation.

I will say that either way, I can see Dean believing that he and Sam would never be able to have quite the relationship they had before.  That' was totally fair, given the circumstances. And I say that as someone who has a lot of sympathy for S4 Sam. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I honestly don't get how that changes things. Presumably, Sam's eyes went black because he had  so much demon blood in his system that he started displaying demonic qualities.  If he stopped taking demon blood, his eyes would no longer be at risk of turning black, just like he'd no longer be able to exorcise demons with his mind. 

I can see it being jarring to recognize just how far down the path to hell Sam had gone, but I don't think it fundamentally alters the situation.

I'm not sure what you mean by it not changing things. I'm saying that for me, it clarified further why Dean couldn't deal with Sam even after he tried to do it.