“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I forgot to ask; what about last nights episode gave you hope that he’ll get a win?

Well I think he already did get a win by outfoxing a cosmic entity. That he got back to Dean and Sam. That he'll have a role with raising Jack and stuff with the AU.

[juppschmitz]

On 10.11.2017 at 5:41 AM, Res said:

While it was a watchable episode tonight, and I get that Dean doesn't think that he matters in general, why did they also have to have him say, "Sam keeps trying to fix it but I just keep dragging him down." He was suicidal enough by just not being able to save Cas, Mary, the kid, etc. Why did they have to make him say this about himself as well? It just seems to me like another dig at Dean's character by the writers IMO, even though this writer was definitely MUCH better than the others.

I reckon it's because he thinks like this about himself that he's suicidal in the first place.

[DittyDotDot]

On 11/9/2017 at 10:41 PM, Res said:

While it was a watchable episode tonight, and I get that Dean doesn't think that he matters in general, why did they also have to have him say, "Sam keeps trying to fix it but I just keep dragging him down." He was suicidal enough by just not being able to save Cas, Mary, the kid, etc. Why did they have to make him say this about himself as well? It just seems to me like another dig at Dean's character by the writers IMO, even though this writer was definitely MUCH better than the others.

I don't think it was a dig at Dean's character, but how Dean sees himself right now. Even when they win, they lose and Dean is usually able to power through those losses by getting a few victories with the hunting and saving people. Right now, he's not even getting those--he couldn't even save one scared kid--so he can't see a reason for why he exists right now. I'm guessing that's going to change in the next few weeks and Dean's state of mind will turn around once he sees he does make a difference for people. For Dean, I don't think he gives a crap if he's important in a big cosmic way, but what matters to Dean is that he makes a difference in people's lives on a more personal level. That's the kind of win he needs right now.

[companionenvy]

I have no problem with Cas not being included in Billie's "you have work to do" shtick, because on a cosmic level, Cas is in a very different position than Sam and Dean. Maybe part of this is my own theology creeping in, but angels are created to serve the will of God -- and, in theory, to aid humanity. That doesn't mean someone like Cas, who rebelled, can't have a role on Earth, but in a big-picture sense, the big movers and shakers on Earth are supposed to be humans. Cas is actually the only angel we've seen be brought back by God, something even the archangels Gabriel and Raphael didn't get. So it is hard for me to read the fact that God and/or Death weren't planning on intervening to save him as a slight against Cas. Sam and Dean are our two main characters, so it stands to reason the narrative would give them special treatment in various ways, even apart from the angel/human divide.

However, I totally agree with Wayward Son that Cas is long overdue for a win more substantial than annoying the Empty into spitting him out.  I can't remember Cas doing anything effective since season 9, and even there he was making up for a mistake that he had caused. I'd particularly love it if we could see him actually helping or saving a fellow angel. It is almost comical at this point how Cas again and again finds himself in the position of having to kill angels, but pretty much never gets to save one. This is true even when the angel in question is not a clear-cut villain. 

I don't need Cas as the primary hero. Offering meaningful support to the Winchesters would be just fine. Unfortunately, he hasn't gotten to succeed even in that for a long time. 

[Wayward Son]

On 21 January 2015 at 9:38 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I think the show could find a way to bring it up regardless. Because right now the vibe is kinda "Dean is on a dark path and Sam and Cas are purer than the driven snow". It`s like they never, ever, ever had their own dark paths as far as the writers are concerned. Yet I distinctly remember that not only did they but when they did, the writing took great pains to give at least half if not all the responsibility for it to Dean as well. For reasons and stuff. 

Sorry for the random quoting of a post from three years ago! I'm currently rewatching S10 and reading the episode threads. When exactly did the show try to present Dean as the blame for Cas' dark path in s6? I know a lot of fans see Sam pushing the blame on Dean during their talk in Fallen Idols, which is why I'm not asking about Sam, but I genuinely don't remember Cas or the narrative remotely blaming Dean for Cas' actions. I'm not saying they didn't blame him. I just can't remember it. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Res]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Sorry for the random quoting of a post from three years ago! I'm currently rewatching S10 and reading the episode threads. When exactly did the show try to present Dean as the blame for Cas' dark path in s6? I know a lot of fans see Sam pushing the blame on Dean during their talk in Fallen Idols, which is why I'm not asking about Sam, but I genuinely don't remember Cas or the narrative remotely blaming Dean for Cas' actions. I'm not saying they didn't blame him. I just can't remember it. 

The narrative stated that Cas didn't want to interrupt Dean's new life with Lisa with all the BS Rafael was doing to start another apocalypse. The narrative stated that Cas believed Dean had suffered enough, given enough, and that Cas couldn't bring himself to intrude. It was while Cas was contemplating this in a flashback during "The Man Who Would Be King" that Cas was approached by Crowley and lead to his deal with the "Devil" AKA King of Hell. Or at least that's what I think you are referring to.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Res said:

The narrative stated that Cas didn't want to interrupt Dean's new life with Lisa with all the BS Rafael was doing to start another apocalypse. The narrative stated that Cas believed Dean had suffered enough, given enough, and that Cas couldn't bring himself to intrude. It was while Cas was contemplating this in a flashback during "The Man Who Would Be King" that Cas was approached by Crowley and lead to his deal with the "Devil" AKA King of Hell. Or at least that's what I think you are referring to.

 Ah OK that makes sense :) . Thanks for clarifying! 

 

I think the reason that I never made that connection is the fact that IMO this line of thinking is quickly refuted there and then. When he asks Dean where was he when needed to hear his advice Dean (rightly) points out that he was there and all Cas had to do was come to him. Cas concedes Dean's point but states that he feels he's put himself in too deep now. So I feel narratively Dean's retort was meant to convey the show itself did not consider Dean responsible in anyway. Likewise, the fact that any time Castiel brings it up again after things cool down i.e the born again identity, season 8 etc he always refers to his mistakes and never tries to spread the blame around is also meant to show us he took Deans retort to heart. 

 

So overall I'd  say that while yes the show states that Castiel thought he was doing right by Dean (leaving him with to live a normal life) the onus was still on him to approach Dean for much needed advice. The fact he didn't approach Dean and the whole thing became a mess is presented as Being on Cas (and rightly so) and not on Dean, but MMV :) 

[Res]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 Ah OK that makes sense :) . Thanks for clarifying! 

 

I think the reason that I never made that connection is the fact that IMO this line of thinking is quickly refuted there and then. When he asks Dean where was he when needed to hear his advice Dean (rightly) points out that he was there and all Cas had to do was come to him. Cas concedes Dean's point but states that he feels he's put himself in too deep now. So I feel narratively Dean's retort was meant to convey the show itself did not consider Dean responsible in anyway. Likewise, the fact that any time Castiel brings it up again after things cool down i.e the born again identity, season 8 etc he always refers to his mistakes and never tries to spread the blame around is also meant to show us he took Deans retort to heart. 

 

So overall I'd  say that while yes the show states that Castiel thought he was doing right by Dean (leaving him with to live a normal life) the onus was still on him to approach Dean for much needed advice. The fact he didn't approach Dean and the whole thing became a mess is presented as Being on Cas (and rightly so) and not on Dean, but MMV :) 

Oh, I agree with your interpretation but, if someone is stating that Dean's to blame for Cas's path, this is the only thing I can remember from S6 that might be it.

[DeeDee79]

On 11/10/2017 at 0:15 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

The writers tried to make Benny as cuddly and sympathetic as possible

I never thought that the writers made Benny a cuddly character or tried to downplay the fact that he was what Dean normally hunted to make him more sympathetic. One could argue that Lenore was a cuddly, sympathetic character for resisting her nature and fandom uses her as an example of Sam's willingness to believe that monsters can be good and go against their nature. Not trying to devalue your personal opinion but I just think that it sucks that fans dislike Benny because the narrative painted Sam in a bad light during season 8. I like that Dean had a friend and was sorry to see him go.

[Wayward Son]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I never thought that the writers made Benny a cuddly character or tried to downplay the fact that he was what Dean normally hunted to make him more sympathetic. One could argue that Lenore was a cuddly, sympathetic character for resisting her nature and fandom uses her as an example of Sam's willingness to believe that monsters can be good and go against their nature. Not trying to devalue your personal opinion but I just think that it sucks that fans dislike Benny because the narrative painted Sam in a bad light during season 8. I like that Dean had a friend and was sorry to see him go.

The difference between Benny and Lenore IMO is that Lenore’s behaviour was portrayed as somewhat self serving. She didn’t stop hunting humans because of some great love for them. She stopped because hunters had made her kind practically extinct, and she felt the only way, for the few vampires remaining, to survive was to feed on cattle so there would be no deaths to draw a hunters attention. Benny, on the other hand, apparently turned good because he fell in love with a girl. It doesn’t fit within the general vampire lore of the show IMO and even if one wants to argue it does fit it was a rather cheesy and over done trope to boot.

 

I’m also one of those who dislike Benny’s overall narrative role in s8. He was brought in to make Sam look bad via contrast and this is quite obvious from the fact when the brothers reconciliation began he was quickly written off, bar one final appearance to kill him off and wrap his story up, because he had served his purpose. 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I’m also one of those who dislike Benny’s overall narrative role in s8. He was brought in to make Sam look bad via contrast and this is quite obvious from the fact when the brothers reconciliation began he was quickly written off, bar one final appearance to kill him off and wrap his story up, because he had served his purpose. 

I know that you don’t like Benny because you’ve stated that many times. And fandom dislike of the character because of the way that Sam was written during that season as you’ve pointed out was the point of my post.

[Bobcatkitten]

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

[companionenvy]

25 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

But if he doesn't move into the bunker, there should be a good reason. 

[catrox14]

Ivd never really understood the perception that Benny was sweet and cuddly. Benny helped Dean for self serving reasons which is fine and it was a bargain struck in time of need. That Benny became someone Dean trusted in war doesn't make Benny cuddly.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

The difference between Benny and Lenore IMO is that Lenore’s behaviour was portrayed as somewhat self serving. She didn’t stop hunting humans because of some great love for them. She stopped because hunters had made her kind practically extinct, and she felt the only way, for the few vampires remaining, to survive was to feed on cattle so there would be no deaths to draw a hunters attention. Benny, on the other hand, apparently turned good because he fell in love with a girl. It doesn’t fit within the general vampire lore of the show IMO and even if one wants to argue it does fit it was a rather cheesy and over done trope to boot.

In  s1, Dead Man's Blood, the pretty vampire, Kate, was mated /in love with Luther, the leader of the nest.  She stole the Colt from Daniel Elkins and  brought it to him as a gift to please him. Pretty sure they were polyamorous but she clearly loved him. Which makes sense because vampires were once human so they could love still IMO. They wanted to be left alone and believed they deserved to live like humans. They fought for each other.

I was under  the impression that Lenore and Eli (also played by Ty Olsson ) were mated as well.

Dean didn't stop loving Lisa because he was turned into a vampire.

Romantic love between vampires  was always in SPN vampire lore from the start, so Benny being in love fits right in.

 

Quote

 

30 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

Cas is family. If Jack is living in the bunker then his chosen father better live there too.Besides Cas has been living in the bunker off and on since s11.

[Wayward Son]

34 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

Even if he were to move in the bunker Castiel won’t be in every episode. They’d find some reason to write him out be it he’s on an errand, or the brothers are simply out on a case while Castie is back in the bunker. I’d be very surprised if Castiel is in more than the 11 episodes he got last year, 13 at a  push. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In  s1, Dead Man's Blood, the pretty vampire, Kate, was mated /in love with Luther, the leader of the nest.  She stole the Colt from Daniel Elkins and  brought it to him as a gift to please him. Pretty sure they were polyamorous but she clearly loved him. Which makes sense because vampires were once human so they could love still IMO. They wanted to be left alone and believed they deserved to live like humans. They fought for each other.

I was under  the impression that Lenore and Eli (also played by Ty Olsson ) were mated as well.

Dean didn't stop loving Lisa because he was turned into a vampire.

Romantic love between vampires  was always in SPN vampire lore from the start, so Benny being in love fits right in.

I think @Wayward Son was commenting on Benny changed his nature because he fell in love, not that vampires can't love.

Personally, I loved Benny as a character, but I don't think the was all that good, myself. I definitely don't think he was Dean's friend as much as Dean was his friend, if you know what I mean. And, I don't care if Benny made Sam look bad because Sam looked bad either way in S8. As did Dean, IMO. Which I think was the whole point.

40 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

Cass is never going to be in every episode, so I don't think you have to worry about that. And, Just look at Jack, you don't have to be in every episode to live in the bunker. If I had my druthers, no one would be living in the bunker; that includes Sam and Dean. But, since they are, I think Cass could be allowed to be in the bunker too. Or, they should at least have a good reason for not having him there. So far, the reasons have been pretty weak, if you ask me.

[Pondlass1]

I just wish they'd make the bunker secure... and utilize some of the intel stored there.  Otherwise blow the place up.  I'm tired of it.  It doesn't even look comfy.... those windowless, cold bedrooms.  Who'd want to sleep there?

Plus having to come up with all the nonsensical reasons why folk like Kevin and Cas cannot stay overnight.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Pondlass1

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I just wish they'd make the bunker secure... and utilize some of the intel stored there.  Otherwise blow the place up.  I'm tired of it.  It doesn't even look comfy.... those windowless, cold bedrooms.  Who'd want to sleep there?

Plus having to come up with all the nonsensical reasons why folk like Kevin and Cas cannot stay overnight.

Heh, I always thought they should've moved into Magnus' house, seemed a whole lot more homey than that bunker and it being invisible seems kinda handy.

I'm with you on the blowing the place up! ;)

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think @Wayward Son was commenting on Benny changed his nature because he fell in love, not that vampires can't love.

I never got that from Benny's story.

Benny loved Andrea and I presume he drank non human blood to stay with her. He found a reason to leave his nest and stop being a vampirate but he didn't cease being a vampire. Benny changed his ways for her, I don't see that has being much different than the vampires in Lenore's nest not drinking human blood because she asked them to not do it. She was asking them to go against their nature for her. Whether Eli honored her wishes out of love or loyalty is unclear but he still did what she asked.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I never got that from Benny's story.

Benny loved Andrea and I presume he drank non human blood to stay with her. He found a reason to leave his nest and stop being a vampirate but he didn't cease being a vampire. Benny changed his ways for her, I don't see that has being much different than the vampires in Lenore's nest not drinking human blood because she asked them to not do it. She was asking them to go against their nature for her. Whether Eli honored her wishes out of love or loyalty is unclear but he still did what she asked.

I didn't mean literally changed his nature, but as you say, he changed his ways for a woman. Personally, I don't have a problem with it--other than it being extremely tropey and somewhat simple, but such is the show's want--I was just commenting that I didn't think @Wayward Son was saying vampires couldn't fall in love.

[ahrtee]

50 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas is family. If Jack is living in the bunker then his chosen father better live there too.Besides Cas has been living in the bunker off and on since s11.

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Even if he were to move in the bunker Castiel won’t be in every episode. They’d find some reason to write him out be it he’s on an errand, or the brothers are simply out on a case while Castie is back in the bunker. I’d be very surprised if Castiel is in more than the 11 episodes he got last year, 13 at a  push. 

Moving to the UO thread, because I'm pretty sure it's unpopular, and doesn't involve BvJ.  

[Res]

8 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m also one of those who dislike Benny’s overall narrative role in s8. He was brought in to make Sam look bad via contrast and this is quite obvious from the fact when the brothers reconciliation began he was quickly written off, bar one final appearance to kill him off and wrap his story up, because he had served his purpose. 

I'm one of the ones who LOVED Benny's overall narrative and definitely missed him. I loved it mainly because Dean at least had a brother in arms to help him get to Cas and then out of Purgatory. Although if I'd have known where they were going with Dean's sl after season 9, I'd have wished that they had left him in Purgatory but that's beside the point. 

I know several hate Benny because of how he supposedly was a divider between the brothers and some state that Benny "made" Sam look bad but Sam didn't need any help in that area. He looked that way before Benny was even introduced officially in the show S8. Plus, Sam (and Dean) have looked bad before and after Benny so it's ridiculous IMO that this is even a thing. Heck, no one even mentions Amelia making anyone look bad but she was a part of Sam's life so why is it all on Benny who just helped Dean to help himself get out of Purgatory and back to his girlfriend? Was it because Benny was also supposed to make Sam look bad in the lengths he'd go to get Andrea back while Sam just walked away from Amelia in the dead of the night? You know, walked away from the "best thing he'd EVER had" (RIP Jessica)? (That claim was so stupid it still irritates me but whatever. Apparently Amelia was all that Jessica wasn't, like nice and loving, and thanks for making the S1 storyline seem weaker).

Anyway, the only things that made S8 enjoyable for me were Team Purgatory (including Benny) in Purgatory and the episodes with Benny in them. And, IMO, the only thing that made Sam look bad, besides walking away from Dean and Kevin, was his unreasonable anger and jealousy of Benny. It very much seemed to me one of those, "I am your one and only brother, you must NOT have any other brothers before me in any way, shape or fashion, regardless of any and all circumstances." That is very much what I got out of that idiotic Sacrifice speech.

One of the things that is an UO about the S8 season premiere is that I'm one of the few that saw Sam's sl in character for him and was amazed that they actually when there with him.

Once again, this is ALL my opinion.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, Res said:

I know several hate Benny because of how he supposedly was a divider between the brothers and some state that Benny "made" Sam look bad but Sam didn't need any help in that area. He looked that way before Benny was even introduced officially in the show S8.

I don't hate Benny for Benny... I hate the way that Carver used Benny in the story. In my opinion, Benny and Dean's relationship could've been so much more interesting if Benny had been a bit more gray rather than so obviously good. Because then it just became a soap opera plot of poor Dean and Benny kept apart by mean old Sam... so boring and cliche, in my opinion. Benny ended up - to me - being the vampire version of "the hooker with a heart of gold."

As for Sam looking bad... I personally thought the Dean/Sam relationship was pretty good in season 6.5 through 7. Sam had been appreciative and supportive of Dean and Dean had been supportive of Sam. When Dean went missing in "Time After Time..." Sam looked for him... and the clues he had then were even less than the ones he had at the end of season 7. You may have found Sam in character, but based on what I saw in season 7, I didn't, and I think Carver's trashing was purposeful. As @DittyDotDot said, it may have been Carver's purpose - though I personally think he was much harsher with Sam's character than Dean's (since Dean got to be loyal to Castiel and Benny and heroically fight his way through purgatory)  - but that doesn't mean I have to like what Carver was doing.

9 hours ago, Res said:

Heck, no one even mentions Amelia making anyone look bad

That's because - in my opinion anyway - Amelia was an awful character. I don't see how she could make (almost) anyone look bad. I liked Benny much more than Amelia.

9 hours ago, Res said:

(That claim was so stupid it still irritates me but whatever.

Carver pissed me off for that one. Not only did he trash Sam's character in my opinion, he ignored canon... and not just Jessica, but having Sam imply that he never had normal was just stupid. Sam obviously had normal when he went to college. That whole storyline to force feed us this epic romance between Sam and Amelia - which didn't belong in the show anyway - was just annoying beyond belief, in my opinion. And again with the cheesy soap opera stuff of picnics in the park (who does that in that in real life?) and dead husbands who weren't really dead. The whole thing was ridiculous in my opinion.

9 hours ago, Res said:

the only thing that made Sam look bad, besides walking away from Dean and Kevin, was his unreasonable anger and jealousy of Benny.

I mainly agree. I just happen to disagree that these things were in character for the Sam we saw during season 6.5 - 7. It was more like season 4 Sam, maybe,** and I thought that Carver was purposely ignoring what Gamble - and Kripke too, in season 5 - had done with Sam's character and just went ahead and did whatever he wanted.

Though I will say, Benny being a "good vampire" (unlike every other vampire on the show - even Lenore, who started out not feeding on humans for practical reasons) did contribute for me to the showing Sam in  bad light. I think the storyline could have been written in more of a both brothers have a good point / side kind of way, but Carver wrote it so as to show Sam in the worst light, and Benny as the victim of unnecessary jealousy. I think it was because Benny was his character and so he wanted him to look best. He did the same thing in the end with Gadreel

It's strange, because Carver wrote some of my favorite Sam episodes ever in the show, but as a showrunner, I was so happy to see him leave, because he couldn't seem to give Dean a good storyline without also trashing Sam's character to do it. He did it in season 8, 9 and 10 (in my opinion).

** (though I don't remember Sam ever showing jealousy of that sort - to me that was a Carver construct to have the soap opera poor Benny and Dean, Romeo and Juliet, bromance thing)

Edited November 13, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'll believe that Dean is important when it plays out on screen

I think it was the usual nondescript thing because it is not one specific olanned thing. If they make up shit later on, they can go "see, that`s what that meant" or they never clarify and when an interviewer asks a question a la "in my head Billie refered to this", they will be like "oh, totally". Third option: it means nothing and they hope everyone is gonna forget about it in two or three episodes, tops. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 11/3/2017 at 9:42 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Season to date:

Saves: Dean 2  Sam 2

Kills: Dean 2 Sam 3

 

13x05

This is an odd one to tally. No kills, but saves? None of the VOTW get saved, but Sam saves Dean from the doctor's drill. Does Dean bargaining for the ghosts to be freed count as a save? And if so, does it count as one save since there were so many trapped? Hmmm. I'll count one save for each of them, but I'm open to opinions.

Saves: Dean 1* Sam 1

No kills.

Season to date:

Saves: Dean 3  Sam 3

Kills: Dean 2 Sam 3

Edited November 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

13x05

This is an odd one to tally. No kills, but saves? None of the VOTW get saved, but Sam saves Dean from the doctor's drill. Does Dean bargaining for the ghosts to be freed count as a save? And if so, does it count as one save since there were so many trapped? Hmmm. I'll count one save for each of them, but I'm open to opinions.

Saves: Dean 1* Sam 1

No kills.

Season to date:

Saves: Dean 3  Sam 3

Kills: Dean 2 Sam 3

It’s interesting how even it is so far :) . I’ll be curious to see what it’s like by seasons end. 

[Wayward Son]

You know reading on here and twitter it struck me that Jack is becoming the Dean fans equivalent of Benny. In other words just as many Sam leaning fans (myself included) don’t like the way the show made Benny cuddly and good while in opposition to Sam. Many Dean centric fans seem to dislike the fact Jack’s being portrayed as mostly good but a bit naive because it makes Dean’s attitude to him in earlier episodes look quite unfair. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

You know reading on here and twitter it struck me that Jack is becoming the Dean fans equivalent of Benny. In other words just as many Sam leaning fans (myself included) don’t like the way the show made Benny cuddly and good while in opposition to Sam. Many Dean centric fans seem to dislike the fact Jack’s being portrayed as mostly good but a bit naive because it makes Dean’s attitude to him in earlier episodes look quite unfair. 

 

I didn't like benny because I saw him solely as a plot device to come between Sam and Dean.  Then, I was annoyed by the fact that he turned out to be good.  Because he shouldn't have been.  He should have been Ruby 2.0, IMo.

I don't like Jack for the same reasons I don't like Cas.  He has too much power.  Actually I don't like the MOL bunker either.  I remember on the Pilot commentary, Eric Kripke said these guys weren't Harry Potters. They were two blue collar guys fighting monsters.  And I miss that.  All the spells and angelic help takes something away from them, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You know reading on here and twitter it struck me that Jack is becoming the Dean fans equivalent of Benny. In other words just as many Sam leaning fans (myself included) don’t like the way the show made Benny cuddly and good while in opposition to Sam. Many Dean centric fans seem to dislike the fact Jack’s being portrayed as mostly good but a bit naive because it makes Dean’s attitude to him in earlier episodes look quite unfair. 

I compare the writing for him more to Amara than Benny. With Amara, they made her dangerous and "evol" even as a literal baby. With Jack, they rapidly grow him up from babyhood as well to have a viable character and yet he is portrayed as if he was still a baby.

It`s also not consistent, last Season when he was still in the womb they totally played up the question of how he will turn out, good or evil. This Season, he is the purest of the pure. So it was alright to make him edgy as a fetus but not as a character?  

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

You know reading on here and twitter it struck me that Jack is becoming the Dean fans equivalent of Benny. In other words just as many Sam leaning fans (myself included) don’t like the way the show made Benny cuddly and good while in opposition to Sam. Many Dean centric fans seem to dislike the fact Jack’s being portrayed as mostly good but a bit naive because it makes Dean’s attitude to him in earlier episodes look quite unfair. 

Benny was a full grown vampire who Dean met on the field of battle and they became allies out of mutual need. Benny was never a woobie. Never made to be innocent. He always had the potential to drink from a human again. It was his nature and he drank human blood from blood banks to survive. Jack has been portrayed as a child, a toddler, who Dean is being cruel to and threatening to kill. Benny/Amy are the equivalents.

Benny and Jack are apples and parrots. LOL

And FWIW, I'm seeing Dean fans turn on Dean over Jack. I don't know that Sam fans turned on Sam over Benny. They turned on Sam for not looking for Dean and Kevin.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I compare the writing for him more to Amara than Benny. With Amara, they made her dangerous and "evol" even as a literal baby. With Jack, they rapidly grow him up from babyhood as well to have a viable character and yet he is portrayed as if he was still a baby.

It`s also not consistent, last Season when he was still in the womb they totally played up the question of how he will turn out, good or evil. This Season, he is the purest of the pure. So it was alright to make him edgy as a fetus but not as a character?  

The difference between Jack and Amara is the fact he was a new life conceived nine to ten months ago* (in show time) during sex between Lucifer!Jeff and Kelly. While Amara was an ancient primordial being shoved into the body of a human. Amara was still shaped by her experiences prior to her “incarnation” (for a lack of a better word) while Jack’s time in the womb and his few weeks on earth as a man are all he knows. 

 

I also think the show has been trying to add an edge to the character of Jack by having him talk about not feeling what he should be feeling during 13x04 and then attacking Cas, Dean and Sam at the end of this week’s episode. 

 

* I’m not sure how much time has passed in verse since his birth during 12x23 and the end of this week’s episode. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The difference between Jack and Amara is the fact he was a new life conceived nine to ten months ago* (in show time) during sex between Lucifer!Jeff and Kelly. While Amara was an ancient primordial being shoved into the body of a human. Amara was still shaped by her experiences prior to her “incarnation” (for a lack of a better word) while Jack’s time in the womb and his few weeks on earth as a man are all he knows. 

 

I also think the show has been trying to add an edge to the character of Jack by having him talk about not feeling what he should be feeling during 13x04 and then attacking Cas, Dean and Sam at the end of this week’s episode. 

 

* I’m not sure how much time has passed in verse since his birth during 12x23 and the end of this week’s episode. 

I'm going with a month at most.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I also think the show has been trying to add an edge to the character of Jack by having him talk about not feeling what he should be feeling during 13x04 and then attacking Cas, Dean and Sam at the end of this week’s episode. 

If so, those were pitiful attempts, being drowned out in a sea of "wrap Jack in bubble wrap, he is an innocent baby" stuff. 

And it wasn`t even just the naive, fish-out-of-water quality to him. Castiel had that at first, too, but they still managed to balance it out somewhat. 

Now I know that Jack is supposed to be a blank slate but IMO that`s the thing, he truly isn`t. There is no question about his goodness and purity, Lucifer`s contribution be damned. Any potential for danger is solely on the accidental variety. Other than that, I don`t think actual human children haven`t been played THIS innocent and pure on the show. It`s as OTT to me as the slapstick humor.    

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

The difference between Jack and Amara is the fact he was a new life conceived nine to ten months ago* (in show time) during sex between Lucifer!Jeff and Kelly. While Amara was an ancient primordial being shoved into the body of a human. Amara was still shaped by her experiences prior to her “incarnation” (for a lack of a better word) while Jack’s time in the womb and his few weeks on earth as a man are all he knows. 

 

From The Rising Son: 

ASMODEUS: He is not an infant. New to this world, yes, but he is full of timeless knowledge and unschooled power. 
 

So not as innocent/newborn as many people want him to be. (Actually, sounds a lot like Amara, doesn't it?)

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

From The Rising Son: 

ASMODEUS: He is not an infant. New to this world, yes, but he is full of timeless knowledge and unschooled power. 
 

So not as innocent/newborn as many people want him to be. (Actually, sounds a lot like Amara, doesn't it?)

How does Asmodeus know that though since Jack is the first of his kind? And if he considered Jack so knowledgeable then why’d he play on Jack’s naivety to get what he wanted out of him? Until we are given a more concrete source such as Guck or Jack admitting he’s been playing them all along I’m taking a demons word with a pinch of salt. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

How does Asmodeus know that though since Jack is the first of his kind? And if he considered Jack so knowledgeable then why’d he play on Jack’s naivety to get what he wanted out of him? Until we are given a more concrete source such as Guck or Jack admitting he’s been playing them all along I’m taking a demons word with a pinch of salt. 

Because the show said he did? I'm not being snarky either. He's a Prince of Hell and servant to Lucifer. He's saying something that's intended to be true about Jack otherwise they wouldn't introduce it that way. There is a reason he wants to control Jack. Maybe it's a bit of a prophecy, like if an archangel created a nephelim that is what he would know. That he would have all the knowledge but it has to be tapped. So Asmodeus was smart enough to gauge that Jack was young and needed to be manipulated.

That doesn't eliminate that Jack is every bit as dangerous as Asmodeus implies.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Because the show said he did? I'm not being snarky either. He's a Prince of Hell and servant to Lucifer. He's saying something that's intended to be true about Jack otherwise they wouldn't introduce it that way. There is a reason he wants to control Jack. Maybe it's a bit of a prophecy, like if an archangel created a nephelim that is what he would know. That he would have all the knowledge but it has to be tapped. So Asmodeus was smart enough to gauge that Jack was young and needed to be manipulated.

That doesn't eliminate that Jack is every bit as dangerous as Asmodeus implies.

And I didn’t fully rule it out either! I just said I’d personally wait until we got word from a more reliable source like Guck or Jack himself before taking the words of a demon too seriously but YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

From The Rising Son: 

ASMODEUS: He is not an infant. New to this world, yes, but he is full of timeless knowledge and unschooled power. 
 

So not as innocent/newborn as many people want him to be. (Actually, sounds a lot like Amara, doesn't it?)

On the surface maybe, Even if Jack has a bunch of knowledge stored inside him, he isn't aware of that knowledge and he has no experience in which to understand that knowledge. Amara, on the other hand, had centuries of experience, but no real knowledge to understand that experience. So, the same, but not really the same, IMO.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And I didn’t fully rule it out either! I just said I’d personally wait until we got word from a more reliable source like Guck or Jack himself before taking the words of a demon too seriously but YMMV

Asmodeus is a Prince of Hell and they have so much power they have little reason to lie. I think it's intended narratively for this to be factual about Jack.

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because the show said he did? I'm not being snarky either. He's a Prince of Hell and servant to Lucifer. He's saying something that's intended to be true about Jack otherwise they wouldn't introduce it that way. There is a reason he wants to control Jack. Maybe it's a bit of a prophecy, like if an archangel created a nephelim that is what he would know. That he would have all the knowledge but it has to be tapped. So Asmodeus was smart enough to gauge that Jack was young and needed to be manipulated.

That doesn't eliminate that Jack is every bit as dangerous as Asmodeus implies.

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And I didn’t fully rule it out either! I just said I’d personally wait until we got word from a more reliable source like Guck or Jack himself before taking the words of a demon too seriously but YMMV

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

On the surface maybe, Even if Jack has a bunch of knowledge stored inside him, he isn't aware of that knowledge and he has no experience in which to understand that knowledge. Amara, on the other hand, had centuries of experience, but no real knowledge to understand that experience. So, the same, but not really the same, IMO.

Sheesh...I'm going to have to type faster.  

Yes to all this.  It was stated absolutely on the show, by someone who has no reason to lie, which makes it canon (until proven otherwise.) 

Asmodeus said that Jack has all that knowledge and power, not that he knows how to access or use it, much less decide *how* he wants to use it.  Amara took half a season plus tutoring by Crowley to grow into her knowledge/power.  Jack has had a few weeks at most.  

None of that says that he's "playing" the boys.  All it suggests is that he can be turned either way, which is why both sides are so eager to get hold of him. (IMO that's not exactly "nature v. nurture", because it's more indoctrination/training.)   I don't think Jack himself knows.  

I'm just surprised that you consider Guck to be a "reliable source."  :)  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

On the surface maybe, Even if Jack has a bunch of knowledge stored inside him, he isn't aware of that knowledge and he has no experience in which to understand that knowledge. Amara, on the other hand, had centuries of experience, but no real knowledge to understand that experience. So, the same, but not really the same, IMO.

Amara had to learn again though. She had to be taught by Crowley. She had to learn things. IMO, Jack is pre-loaded with knowledge and it will start to come out as he gets older and uses his powers. So for me that doesn't make him innocent. Or he might be well aware of his powers from his birth but controls them to please Sam and Dean and not hurt the world to be good like his mom wants him to be.

Hard to say at this point.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Amara had to learn again though. She had to be taught by Crowley. She had to learn things. IMO, Jack is pre-loaded with knowledge and it will start to come out as he gets older and uses his powers. So for me that doesn't make him innocent. Or he might be well aware of his powers from his birth but controls them to please Sam and Dean and not hurt the world to be good like his mom wants him to be.

Hard to say at this point.

I don't think Amara had to learn again, but her experience was from before Chuck created...well, everything, so she really had no useful knowledge when she was born as a human baby.  She wasn't a blank slate though. Crowley may have given her some knowledge, but she already had a personality developed from centuries of experience and a desire to get her revenge on Chuck. 

Jack on the other hand, may have been born with knowledge, but without any experiences he was a blank slate personality-wise. I'm not saying he's completely innocent, but without experience, knowledge is basically useless, IMO.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Jack on the other hand, may have been born with knowledge, but without any experiences he was a blank slate personality-wise. I'm not saying he's completely innocent, but without experience, knowledge is basically useless, IMO

I'm not sure he was a blank slate personality wise entirely. He chose Cas to be his father, and acts like Cas when he never laid eyes on Cas until he was already born. So that implies to me that Fetus!Jack had some advanced ability to absorb or process or what have you. How could he do that?

[Res]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

How does Asmodeus know that though since Jack is the first of his kind? And if he considered Jack so knowledgeable then why’d he play on Jack’s naivety to get what he wanted out of him? Until we are given a more concrete source such as Guck or Jack admitting he’s been playing them all along I’m taking a demons word with a pinch of salt. 

Well, there is something in a certain book called the Bible that mentions how evil and powerful Nephs were. So much so that God had to flood the entire world, or some such stuff. But basically I seriously doubt this is the first ever Archangel Neph when Gabriel's been around as long as he has. I'm just saying . . .

Edited November 18, 2017 by Res

[Res]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Benny was a full grown vampire who Dean met on the field of battle and they became allies out of mutual need. Benny was never a woobie. Never made to be innocent. He always had the potential to drink from a human again. It was his nature and he drank human blood from blood banks to survive. Jack has been portrayed as a child, a toddler, who Dean is being cruel to and threatening to kill. Benny/Amy are the equivalents.

Benny and Jack are apples and parrots. LOL

And FWIW, I'm seeing Dean fans turn on Dean over Jack. I don't know that Sam fans turned on Sam over Benny. They turned on Sam for not looking for Dean and Kevin.

I agree and don't really see where Dean has been so harsh to "woobie Spawn" in any way to actually be upset with a grief stricken hunter, much less turn on him. If that's all it takes for some, well, to each his or her own. Most of Dean's snark has actually been out of earshot of Spawn as far as he knows. Of course, this is JMO and not really caring at all about Spawn who I agree is Sam's Amara probably has a bit to do with it but not much really.  

Just because they are selling "woobie, ultra-powerful being" stories doesn't mean that I have to buy it. Didn't buy it for most of the "woobie" stories they tried to sell over the years either.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Res

[companionenvy]

IMO, there was a single episode -- the one with the psychic -- in which Dean's reactions to Spawn really made him look bad. This week, he included Jack in "Free Will 2.0" and, seems to be well over his initial reaction. Certainly, he didn't actively work against Jack, the way Sam did when he sicced Martin on Benny. Nor did he give Sam a "its me or Jack" ultimatum. So, I think Sam still comes off significantly worse. That's not even adding the fact that Jack, well intentioned or not, is a much more significant threat than an individual vampire. 

And yeah, if Dean fans are turning on Dean over this, they were pretty fair weather fans. 

[Pondlass1]

The show has been making cracks for a while now about Sam and Dean getting old - especially Dean apparently... dad bod, etc.  Even our angelic Castiel is noticeable aging while on earth.  Meanwhile The CW is a network for the young'uns.

Then along comes Teen Cas!  The casting director must have thought he'd struck gold when Alex walked through the auditions door.  So to add to the fun... they make grumpy geriatric Dean mean to him.  And it worked!  The young'uns are tweeting and riled up and  ratings remain good.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The show has been making cracks for a while now about Sam and Dean getting old - especially Dean apparently... dad bod, etc.  Even our angelic Castiel is noticeable aging while on earth.  Meanwhile The CW is a network for the young'uns.

That`s a problem of this particular show, though. Ian Somerhalder and Paul Wesley noticeably aged - despite immortal vamp status - on their shows and they still got played as hotties. Oliver Queen in his his early thirties in the show and gets "he is so hot" remarks left and right onscreen. Elijah of Vampire Diaries always played a mature character and gets the hotness moniker. 

Jensen and Jared still look the part, granted, they don`t look like teenagers anymore, but they are still hot so if they played it like any other show on the network, even with their more mature male characters, it would still fit right in with the CW mold. There is no reason for the writers to throw in mean-spirited digs at actor`s looks. After all, those same actors are still hot enough in real life to get people woohoo-ing at Cons and the numerous "ZOMG, I met so-and-so, so hot" from teenage girls` twitters. 

This is basically a question of how they market their talent onscreen. Which, frankly, not even other network shows do. At least I can`t think of one that features hot people and has the narrative tell me they are old, fat and ugly. 

[MysteryGuest]

On 11/17/2017 at 0:29 PM, Katy M said:

I don't like Jack for the same reasons I don't like Cas.  He has too much power.  Actually I don't like the MOL bunker either.  I remember on the Pilot commentary, Eric Kripke said these guys weren't Harry Potters. They were two blue collar guys fighting monsters.  And I miss that.  All the spells and angelic help takes something away from them, IMO.

I don't disagree with any of this really, but that ship has sailed, unfortunately.  We can't have lowly humans, Sam and Dean, fighting angels and demons without angels and demons as allies.  Had they stuck with the monster storylines and not gone the God route, then yes, traveling the road in their trusty Impala would have made sense. I was hoping that after God left town, this is where the show was headed, but they've just amped up the heaven/hell storyline instead.  

I'm not sure what their intention is with Jack.  Last week Sam was getting frustrated with Jack because he couldn't move the pencil, and this week when he proudly shows them what he's learned to do by lifting said pencil, they all side-eye him like he's instantly turned into a dangerous monster.  And he's been tossing bodies around since the very moment they met him, so the idea that someone could actually get hurt from that should have been a conversation they had with him at the very beginning.  Instead of playing with pencils, why not have an actual conversation about just how powerful he is and that if he wants to be good, he's going to have to learn to harness those powers.  It just seemed forced that they were all so shocked when the security guard became collateral damage.  They should have been better at talking Jack off the ledge after all the collateral damage Dean, Sam and Cas have been responsible for over the years.  

Have I mentioned that I'd like better writing?

Edited November 18, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

And yeah, if Dean fans are turning on Dean over this, they were pretty fair weather fans. 

No, these are not fair weather Dean fans. Not at all. These are viewers  who do youtube reviews and reactions and also many Twitter and Tumblr users. They love Dean.  They understand Dean's POV with his grief up to the point that he called Jack a freak and promised to kill him. Almost every person reacted to Sam's speech about the demon blood on point and correctly calling out Dean. They understood Dean's pain and suffering yet find that him being harsh towards Jack when Jack as done nothing intentionally wrong to be too far.

It's compounded by them finding Jack super cute, sweet, cuddly (literally their words) and very Cas-like. It's remarked on that Jack is a newborn really, by IMO many if not most viewers and it's also driven home in the narrative that Jack is to be considered an innocent child who Dean is being cruel and abusive towards. They think Jack deserves a chance to prove that he's good, so they think Dean is being an asshole even if Dean is being an asshole because he is grieving. They want Dean to stop acting as he has been through 13.6.  The narrative that if Jack goes darkside that Dean is making it worse if not outright causing it. So IMO, mission accomplished that Dean looks far worse than Sam in s8. 

37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure what their intention is with Jack.  Last week Sam was getting frustrated with Jack because he couldn't move the pencil, and this week when he proudly shows them what he's learned to do by lifting said pencil, they all side-eye him like he's instantly turned into a dangerous monster.  

Dean side-eying that I didn't find unreasonable because he's been concerned all along that Jack would be dangerous.

Sam's reaction was odd and I'm thinking maybe he's worried that if Jack goes darkside then he's been complicit in helping Jack access and control his powers.