“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wish someone from the show would answer this, or that someone at a con had the nerve to ask Jensen and Jared if they are aware of it. It's a clear filming choice by whoever is in charge - the director of photography? the episode director who calls the shots? -  so I would love to hear their explanation.

IIRC, director frames (and chooses) the shots, angles, lighting, etc.  DP makes sure they're in focus and whatever effects the director wanted (soft focus, different lighting, etc.)  work.  Directors usually have the final say over the finished product (unless TPTB want something else :) )  If this has happened with multiple directors, it might be a direction from On High.  

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If this has happened with multiple directors, it might be a direction from On High.  

This is what I'm thinking because its happening in multiple episodes.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, director frames (and chooses) the shots, angles, lighting, etc.  DP makes sure they're in focus and whatever effects the director wanted (soft focus, different lighting, etc.)  work.  Directors usually have the final say over the finished product (unless TPTB want something else :) )  If this has happened with multiple directors, it might be a direction from On High.  

Thanks! Makes sense for 13x03 then, since Singer directed, I don't know about Thomas J. Wright who directed 13x02. It really is noticeable though.

Look at this perspective from 13x02.

and from 13x03 when it's Sam's perspective

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
corrected episode numbers

[ahrtee]

Hmmm...that doesn't even make sense from a perspective, um, perspective.  It looks like Sam was edited in later from a different shot.  Even his lighting is slightly different (see the lighting on the back of his head and his left arm and knee, which don't match the two lights in the back or the way Dean and Jack are lit.)  Did Jared miss any shooting days and they wanted to save money instead of reshooting?

Edited October 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

If it`s a direction to the directors, it is pretty stupid. You don`t frame shot this way to make a point about characters morality. You can achieve that (if you have no faith in your dialogue, that is) by lighting or music. But not by making camera angles literally look weird. Which this recent episode did. I mean, Sam perching on the chair looked more subtle because at least two people lounging on the couch would be positioned lower than one sitting on a higher chair. In this recent episode, Sam seemed to step on an apple box in every second shot. 

I mean, if you mean to make a character look shifty and want to make the audience question them, you do not literally use a fish eye lense for the camera work. What`s next, a title card spelling out how the audience is supposed to react? An "agree track", like a laugh track in sitcoms? 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, director frames (and chooses) the shots, angles, lighting, etc.  DP makes sure they're in focus and whatever effects the director wanted (soft focus, different lighting, etc.)  work.  Directors usually have the final say over the finished product (unless TPTB want something else :) )  If this has happened with multiple directors, it might be a direction from On High.  

Actually, this is true for movies, but my understanding is TV is very different. The director of photography (DP) on TV does the lighting and such while the camera operators are responsible for the focus and in-camera effects. Directors aren't generally tied to the show on TV--although some are actors or producers for the show, the bulk of TV directors come and go and direct many different shows throughout the season--so it's the showrunner and the network who have the final say on the episode. Most of their directors have no clue what happened in the previous episode or what's coming down the pike. And, it's my understanding, the director's cut of an episode very rarely is what makes it to air.

With Supernatural, it's even more tricky because their production is split with the writers and showrunners being in LA and the filming being done in Vancouver So the showrunners don't have as much control over the production as shows that have their production and their writing staff in the same location. It creates a problem when something doesn't come across as they expected and they don't have the time to restage it and reshoot it by the time the showrunners see the footage in LA. Whereas other shows might have the writer and/or showrunner on set each day to manage things as they come up. Supernatural used to do it better when Kim Manners was running production up in Vancouver, but Jim Michaels just isn't Kim Manners. 

So, I'd say, if it's happened with multiple directors on TV, it could be a direction from On High or might just be something continuously falling through the cracks.

Edited October 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...that doesn't even make sense from a perspective, um, perspective.  It looks like Sam was edited in later from a different shot.  Even his lighting is slightly different (see the lighting on the back of his head and his left arm and knee, which don't match the two lights in the back or the way Dean and Jack are lit.)  Did Jared miss any shooting days and they wanted to save money instead of reshooting?

If you watch it in motion, it doesn't look edited at all. It's just a bizarre choice of shooting angles. Earlier in the scene, even Jack looks bigger than Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anyone care to speculate on why they are framing Sam looking down on/looming over Dean so much lately? The perspective in the 12x01 scene when Dean & Jack are on the couch and Sam is in the chair was weird, but this (from the fight last night) is just plain bizarre. On Jensen's coverage, he looks about a foot shorter than Jared, but on Jared's coverage, it more closely reflects their actual height difference.

It's the perspective and camera angle. On Jensen's coverage, Sam is closer to the lens and the angle is higher which makes Sam look larger than Dean. Then on Jared's coverage, Jensen would be closer to the lens, but it's a slightly lower angle, so it balances the perspective. It could be an intentional way of showing Sam is looking down on Dean--which he is, in this case--but it also could be a constraint of the space they were working in. Or, it could be they shot both upper and lower perspectives on both sides, but these were the best performances so they used them instead of having the same camera angle on both sides.

There's really just too many factors to what ends up in the episode that's it's hard to say with this one.

ETA: Also, in the shot of the three of them eating, Jared is sitting up higher which is also messing with the perspective since Jensen is further into the frame than Jared is.

Edited October 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If you watch it in motion, it doesn't look edited at all. It's just a bizarre choice of shooting angles. Earlier in the scene, even Jack looks bigger than Dean.

OK.  Must be why I didn't notice it before. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's the perspective and camera angle. On Jensen's coverage, Sam is closer to the lens and the angle is higher which makes Sam look larger than Dean. Then on Jared's coverage, Jensen would be closer to the lens, but it's a slightly lower angle, so it balances the perspective. It could be an intentional way of showing Sam is looking down on Dean--which he is, in this case--but it also could be a constraint of the space they were working in. Or, it could be they shot both upper and lower perspectives on both sides, but these were the best performances so they used them instead of having the same camera angle on both sides.

There's really just too many factors to what ends up in the episode that's it's hard to say with this one.

ETA: Also, in the shot of the three of them eating, Jared is sitting up higher which is also messing with the perspective since Jensen is further into the frame than Jared is.

I understand perspectives, I just don't understand why they keep choosing this perspective. I fear it's part of their narrative and not just a coincidence. I went through the three episodes this season and can't find an example of the opposite being true.

Edited October 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I understand perspectives, I just don't understand why they keep choosing this perspective. I fear it's part of their narrative and not just a coincidence. I went through the three episodes this season and can't find an example of the opposite being true.

Maybe? Like I said, it could be they're trying to visually show us that Sam is looking down on Dean, and if this was a more controlled show, I'd assume that was the case. But, since they pretty much leave the visuals up to each director to figure out and there seems to be very little management of the directors, I think it might just  be coincidence here. Who knows, though?

Edited October 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe? Like I said, it could be they're trying to visually show us that Sam is looking down on Dean, and if this was a more controlled show, I'd assume that was the case. But, since they pretty much leave the visuals up to each director to figure out and there seems to be very little management of the directors, I think it might just  be coincidence here. Who knows, though?

 

Eh, I don't know about that. The editors/producers/showrunner/network have ultimate creative control over what gets on air. So if they saw something out of whack in that scene and didn't want it on air, they would have not done it. Also, Bob Singer directed this episode. He and Dabb have ultimate creative control. Given Singer's  tugging of Jensen's ear at comic con about Dean's position on the matter, I think it's pretty likely it's intentional. Dabb wrote 13.2/Sgriccia directed. BL wrote 13.2/Thomas Wright directed. Berens wrote/Singer directed 13.3. So that means as the EP he knew what he wanted creatively and IMO story wise for the episode. JMHO

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, I don't know about that. The editors/producers/showrunner/network have ultimate creative control over what gets on air. So if they saw something out of whack in that scene and didn't want it on air, they would have not done it. Also, Bob Singer directed this episode. He and Dabb have ultimate creative control. Given Singer's  tugging of Jensen's ear at comic con about Dean's position on the matter, I think it's pretty likely it's intentional. Dabb wrote 13.2/Sgriccia directed. BL wrote 13.2/Thomas Wright directed. Berens wrote/Singer directed 13.3. So that means as the EP he knew what he wanted creatively and IMO story wise for the episode. JMHO

These are two different episodes directed by two different directors we were discussing. I think it's just coincidence that both directors chose the framing they did. To do otherwise would mean there was discussion between the directors and I don't think that happens all that much.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

These are two different episodes directed by two different directors we were discussing. I think it's just coincidence that both directors chose the framing they did. To do otherwise would mean there was discussion between the directors and I don't think that happens all that much.

Or it could mean that Dabb and Singer contacted the directors.  If the order came from on high, they'd have to follow it

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Or it could mean that Dabb and Singer contacted the directors.  If the order came from on high, they'd have to follow it

Right, as I said, it could be, but it doesn't seem like this show operates this way. They seem to to defer to their director on how to get things done rather than dictating every shot of the show. So, yeah, I find it hard to believe that Dabb or Singer called all their directors and told them to make sure Jensen looks small in-frame in comparison to Jared. I think it more likely that each came to their blocking on their own for numerous reasons.

Edited October 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

These are two different episodes directed by two different directors we were discussing. I think it's just coincidence that both directors chose the framing they did. To do otherwise would mean there was discussion between the directors and I don't think that happens all that much.

I know what we were talking about it. I'm saying that there is probably more discussion BTS about a narrative through line because Singer along with Dabb have the creative control over the show and it's final edits. Singer is also married to the woman who wrote 13.2. I tend to think there is a lot more collaboration between the EPs and the writers now than before. I'm saying that I don't think it is coincidence in this case. We can agree to disagree :)

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, yeah, I find it hard to believe that Dabb or Singer called all their directors and told them to make sure Jensen looks small in-frame in comparison to Jared. I think it more likely that each came to their blocking on their own for numerous reasons.

I don't think Dabb or Singer are telling the other directors how to do the specific shot but they can say "This is the narrative throughline we want to communicate visually" and the director does something to meet that general specification. That's what I'm talking about. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

"This is the narrative throughline we want to communicate visually"

I might agree with that if I believe there is a throughline they'd stick with. Even if the showrunners are trying to show Sam as having the superior position right now - which I actually think they are showing him as being a jerk again (sigh) in preparation for a fall - I suspect they'll change their mind sooner or later.

I say this because a couple of days ago, I was watching some of the end of season 9 ("King of the Damned"), and I caught something I missed the first couple of times I watched the episode. I was distracted a moment and almost did a double take, thinking "did I hear that right?" Apparently I had. Here's the dialogue I caught this time through:

Quote

Castiel: Sam. You have a moment?
Sam: Yeah. What?
Castiel: I wanted to ask you about Gadreel, the time he possessed you.
Sam: It's not really something I like to --
Castiel: Sam, please.
Sam: He didn't possess me completely -- more like we, uh... shared housing. I was still me.
Castiel: Did you ever sense a presence?
Sam: I don't really know what I felt. I mean, maybe that I wasn't completely alone.
Castiel: Did you ever feel threatened?
Sam: No. More that he... wasn't at rest, l-like he had unfinished business. Now that we know more about him, I-I'd say he felt misunderstood.
Castiel: But not -- not a danger, not hostile.
Sam: No. I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin.

Now I had remembered the at least partial retcon from the beginning of the season that Gadreel was just a poor, misunderstood guy who didn't mean Sam any harm (*eyeroll*), but looking at this now, not only did the conversation seem to be implying that, but also that Sam suspected that he wasn't completely alone in his body at the time... which what? I remember Sam thinking that maybe there was something wrong with himself again, but at no time in the first half of the season do I ever remember Sam acting like he suspected that he wasn't alone in his own body. So why would they have Sam say this... The answer is maybe at the end of the conversation. Not only did Sam supposedly suspect, he "wasn't completely alone" the conversation is steered to where Sam admits he didn't feel that Gadreel was a threat and that "I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin." Which what? How was that Sam's fault, and why is Sam having to admit that he was "wrong" about any of that?

In the course of one conversation, Gadreel not only goes from somewhat malevolent to non-threatening (interesting since he threatened Dean with Sam's demise - non-directly and directly - on multiple occasions) and misunderstood, but it is implied that maybe Sam suspected someone else was in his body, and thought that other presence wasn't dangerous, but that Sam was wrong about that, resulting in Kevin's death. Wow. That perspective, in my opinion, was completely different from what they were showing in the first half of the season... In that one conversation, the writers seem to be changing the narrative of Sam from unknowing victim of Gadreel's possession to semi-conscious host who guessed wrong and so because of that, might have contributed to Kevin's death.

I would say what I think about that, but the words wouldn't be fit for most company.

But basically I'm saying that just because it might seem like the narrative is showing us "mean Dean" right now, by the end of the season, it could likely be something entirely different... and if it follows pattern, most likely not in Sam's favor - see the end of season 8, 9, and 10... and in my opinion 12 also. Season 11 was somewhat of a non-entity for Sam at the end unless you count God proclaiming it was all Sam's fault.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I might agree with that if I believe there is a throughline they'd stick with. Even if the showrunners are trying to show Sam as having the superior position right now - which I actually think they are showing him as being a jerk again (sigh) in preparation for a fall - I suspect they'll change their mind sooner or later.

I say this because a couple of days ago, I was watching some of the end of season 9 ("King of the Damned"), and I caught something I missed the first couple of times I watched the episode. I was distracted a moment and almost did a double take, thinking "did I hear that right?" Apparently I had. Here's the dialogue I caught this time through:

Now I had remembered the at least partial retcon from the beginning of the season that Gadreel was just a poor, misunderstood guy who didn't mean Sam any harm (*eyeroll*), but looking at this now, not only did the conversation seem to be implying that, but also that Sam suspected that he wasn't completely alone in his body at the time... which what? I remember Sam thinking that maybe there was something wrong with himself again, but at no time in the first half of the season do I ever remember Sam acting like he suspected that he wasn't alone in his own body. So why would they have Sam say this... The answer is maybe at the end of the conversation. Not only did Sam supposedly suspect, he "wasn't completely alone" the conversation is steered to where Sam admits he didn't feel that Gadreel was a threat and that "I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin." Which what? How was that Sam's fault, and why is Sam having to admit that he was "wrong" about any of that?

In the course of one conversation, Gadreel not only goes from somewhat malevolent to non-threatening (interesting since he threatened Dean with Sam's demise - non-directly and directly - on multiple occasions) and misunderstood, but it is implied that maybe Sam suspected someone else was in his body, and thought that other presence wasn't dangerous, but that Sam was wrong about that, resulting in Kevin's death. Wow. That perspective, in my opinion, was completely different from what they were showing in the first half of the season... In that one conversation, the writers seem to be changing the narrative of Sam from unknowing victim of Gadreel's possession to semi-conscious host who guessed wrong and so because of that, might have contributed to Kevin's death.

I would say what I think about that, but the words wouldn't be fit for most company.

But basically I'm saying that just because it might seem like the narrative is showing us "mean Dean" right now, by the end of the season, it could likely be something entirely different... and if it follows pattern, most likely not in Sam's favor - see the end of season 8, 9, and 10... and in my opinion 12 also. Season 11 was somewhat of a non-entity for Sam at the end unless you count God proclaiming it was all Sam's fault.

Excellent post! And this is why the possession storyline is easily my least favourite storyline to date and I hate s9. It’s an example of victim shaming at its finest. 

[Aeryn13]

To be honest, right now I believe this is all filler material. Dean will be "mad" with grief, pardon the pun, until he won`t be. And he will be cold to Jack until he won`t be. (My guess would be starting next episode). And yes there will be something on how he was wrong about Jack but I don`t see it as any kind of throughline for the Season. 

They have gone out of their way to make Jack cute and cuddly and sympathetic. I can`t see him turning "evil" or "dark" even for a short while. He might be dangerous on occassion but that is something completely different. 

But so far Dean "being mean" just facilitated plot points. First episode he shoots at Jack, Jack disappears and we get the angel fight in the prison. Second episode they argue in the motel room and somehow it leads to Jack getting snatched by Asmodeus. Third episode Jack overhears Dean`s anger about Cas and it activates his powers to contact/wake up Cas. If Dean were as cuddly-saintly as Sam right now, they would have come up with different scenarios to make all that happen.

At a certain point, though, it won`t be convenient anymore and it will change. 

Nothing about that was ever meant to be an exploration of Dean in any way. PTBs can spin all that yarn about grief and depression and so on like they always do and they certainly have no problem trashing the character, either by making him hated in being mean to Jack or last year by making him incompetent valium!Dean doormat, but I highly highly doubt they have ever given any true thought to character work. 

That said, I do not overly enjoy writing that means my favourite character is gonna be trashed and hated on by fandom like this was assured to do but for my personal enjoyment I prefer this to the second half of last Season when the valium-doormatdom was celebrated as character growth by the same people.

Yes, even I would appreciate if he was nicer to Jack because I feel sorry for the guy but at least Dean is awake. He has a presence again and even a spine. He has risen in competency points a bit from 12.B, thank God. Nope, it isn`t close to what it could be but I`m grateful for even the breadcrumbs.  

So even though he isn`t kind right now, I see it as a step up from what I consider a version of "barefoot and pregnant". If he can regain his kindness but still keep the vibrancy, it would be even better. 

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To be honest, right now I believe this is all filler material. Dean will be "mad" with grief, pardon the pun, until he won`t be. And he will be cold to Jack until he won`t be. (My guess would be starting next episode). And yes there will be something on how he was wrong about Jack but I don`t see it as any kind of throughline for the Season. 

They have gone out of their way to make Jack cute and cuddly and sympathetic. I can`t see him turning "evil" or "dark" even for a short while. He might be dangerous on occassion but that is something completely different. 

But so far Dean "being mean" just facilitated plot points. First episode he shoots at Jack, Jack disappears and we get the angel fight in the prison. Second episode they argue in the motel room and somehow it leads to Jack getting snatched by Asmodeus. Third episode Jack overhears Dean`s anger about Cas and it activates his powers to contact/wake up Cas. If Dean were as cuddly-saintly as Sam right now, they would have come up with different scenarios to make all that happen.

At a certain point, though, it won`t be convenient anymore and it will change. 

Nothing about that was ever meant to be an exploration of Dean in any way. PTBs can spin all that yarn about grief and depression and so on like they always do and they certainly have no problem trashing the character, either by making him hated in being mean to Jack or last year by making him incompetent valium!Dean doormat, but I highly highly doubt they have ever given any true thought to character work. 

That said, I do not overly enjoy writing that means my favourite character is gonna be trashed and hated on by fandom like this was assured to do but for my personal enjoyment I prefer this to the second half of last Season when the valium-doormatdom was celebrated as character growth by the same people.

Yes, even I would appreciate if he was nicer to Jack because I feel sorry for the guy but at least Dean is awake. He has a presence again and even a spine. He has risen in competency points a bit from 12.B, thank God. Nope, it isn`t close to what it could be but I`m grateful for even the breadcrumbs.  

So even though he isn`t kind right now, I see it as a step up from what I consider a version of "barefoot and pregnant". If he can regain his kindness but still keep the vibrancy, it would be even better. 

I think its all Jensen acting against the script.  I think he's doing his best to soften the writing but he can only do so much.  I have no doubt in my mind that Dabb's intention was mean a-hole Dean and compassionate best big brother ever Sam.  Because Sam has to be better at even that. 

I think the whole "grief" thing was all Jensen as well.  I mean we had Singer pinching his ear over the whole Dean doesn't want to look for Mary thing.  There was no mention of it from anyone except Jensen at comic con.   I think Jensen tried to make sense of it all and decided to play up the grief angle because it was the only way he could wrap his head around it.

Then I think Dabb and Singer copied Jensen's answer but never really had any intention of actually exploring it.  I think when Cas comes back your right Dean will simply stop being sad.  There won't be any real pay off.

But not before Dean's made to learn multiple lessons and apologize to Jack, Sam and Mary because Dean's feeling never matter to anyone.

We had one person show Dean compassion so far and that came from Missouri of all people.  For all the Sam has so much empathy posts I'm seeing he's shown none toward his own brother.  Dean is supposedly struggling to put one foot in front of the other but all Sam cares about is that Dean is mean to Jack.  But when Sam has a pet project Dean quickly becomes second fiddle to Sam. 

But I do agree this is a nice vacation from ValiumDean.  But I suspect he'll be back after episode 6. 

It's why I disliked the back half of s12.  Dean is lied to and betrayed (3 times by Cas in one episode) but yet he does all the apologizing and compromising.   Talk about victim shaming.

Edited October 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

The photos posted on the blog sites for 13x04 are more of the same big Sam/small Dean perspective, with only a couple exceptions in which their actual size difference is shown. They are spoilers so I won't post here but they are on the usual sites.

Spoilers on link

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-big-empty-description/164338/

Edited October 28, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Is it just me or do they make Dean look less bulky than before? I know that shouldn`t influence height but it creates an overall perception of more mass/bigger. I`m still seeing the T-shirt, shirt and jacket-combo which is the usual three layers but Dean overall looks thinner to me in these pics. Like in the one pic sitting they are not far apart in terms of height but it looks like Dean has 20 % less body mass. Which is ridiculous. 

If it is supposed to be deliberate camera angles, IMO it just makes it look very weird. Like if the DP is an amateur.   

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think its all Jensen acting against the script.

ITA.

 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It's why I disliked the back half of s12.  Dean is lied to and betrayed (3 times by Cas in one episode) but yet he does all the apologizing and compromising.   Talk about victim shaming.

And it started way back in S5, which is when the Sam character went completely into the toilet for  me.

I never really liked or loved or Sam, even in the first 4 seasons, but I DID feel like there was hope for him to be redeemed by the writing. But then S5 happened and I saw where they were going with the character and it was to Marty-Stu-ville. And in S6, when they decided to try and attach Cas more to Sam, while pretty much ignoring the profound bond for the most part(aside from a mention of it here or there), that only reinforced that thought for me. And it's also why I prefer the show when the brothers are separated-because anyone who has scenes with Sam stands a greater chance of being undercut in their role by the writers on this show-and now, it looks like even the directing has been affected. The camera angles and perspectives in these first few episodes have been simply ludicrous and impossible to ignore, IMO, too.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Is it just me or do they make Dean look less bulky than before? I know that shouldn`t influence height but it creates an overall perception of more mass/bigger. I`m still seeing the T-shirt, shirt and jacket-combo which is the usual three layers but Dean overall looks thinner to me in these pics. Like in the one pic sitting they are not far apart in terms of height but it looks like Dean has 20 % less body mass. Which is ridiculous. 

If it is supposed to be deliberate camera angles, IMO it just makes it look very weird. Like if the DP is an amateur.   

I do find that Jensen is looking more slender than I've ever seen him.  That picture of him and JDM's son showed how slender he is.

 

While that would explain Dean's bulkiness but his height didn't change, and Jared is only a few inches taller.  I can't see it being a coincidence that multiple directors on their own have taken to using these odd camera angles to make Jared seem that much bigger.

It has to be deliberate.

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The camera angles and perspectives in these first few episodes have been simply ludicrous and impossible to ignore, IMO.

It was so glaring.  Took me right out of that scene at first.  It was like Jensen was in a hole.  Do they really think we don't notice stuff like this?

I can appreciate they have issues with guest stars, Richard S has a running joke about his first scene with the Js (only the top of his head showing)... but they've been filming the 6 foot 1 versus 6 foot 4 Js for 13 years now and it's the same crew.  So whoever directed was making a point via height, I guess?  

Many here have met Jensen in person and commented he's slimmer than you would imagine, especially around waist and hips.  But those arms... those shoulders.... they're mighty fine.

[SueB]

@catrox14  I missed your Emma rant.  I'll just say "me too" .  Emma was 3 days old when Sam killed her.  

Now, I have ONE caveat -- between Emma & Jack there has been a LOT of water under the bridge.  

Benny, Kate, Garth, Magda -- probably a few more.  SO, theoretically, they have grown through these experiences and accepted more 'grey'. And Magda flat out KILLED.  

But I will never be over Sam killing Emma.  I think they won't ever bring it up again and that is a pity.  It's like Jesse the antichrist -- they couldn't figure out how to do that without too many problems.  

[catrox14]

Sam looks like a giant in those pics. Some of it could just be a perspective and uneven ground by the grave. In 12.23,  Misha looked a full 6 inches shorter than Jared and 3 inches shorter than Dean which is BS because Misha is almost the same height as Jensen. And at times Jensen wears a 1 inch heeled boot but that's it. Is Jared wearing lifts in his boots now?
 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

@catrox14  I missed your Emma rant.  I'll just say "me too" .  Emma was 3 days old when Sam killed her.  

Now, I have ONE caveat -- between Emma & Jack there has been a LOT of water under the bridge.  

Benny, Kate, Garth, Magda -- probably a few more.  SO, theoretically, they have grown through these experiences and accepted more 'grey'. And Magda flat out KILLED.  

But I will never be over Sam killing Emma.  I think they won't ever bring it up again and that is a pity.  It's like Jesse the antichrist -- they couldn't figure out how to do that without too many problems.  

Emma is a huge issue for me. HUGE. And it should be for the show and for Dean and Sam.

I've gone back and forth but I've settled on the unfortunate fact Dean was stupid, and didn't use proper birth control the entire time so he was Emma's bio dad.  If it wasn't to be understood and accepted that Emma was Dean's actual daughter why spend the entire episode making it clear he was and why have Dean say to Sam who said she wasn't really his "Actually she was...really. She also just happened to a crazy man killing monster".  Dean believed it. Everything in the episode said it was his daughter. So yes, IMO, Sam killed his own monster niece out of vengeance for Dean killing Amy Pond. I think Dean did hesitate to kill Emma,  and not just because it was his own daughter, but because he didn't want to kill a kid. He let Amy Pond's son live because he hadn't  killed anyone yet. 

Another missed opportunity for a good Purgatory thing was Dean running into Emma, who should have been in Purgatory.

Edited October 28, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

It's kind of ironic that Dean is dead inside but is showing more life then he has since 12.B

Edited October 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Well, outside of the MOC which I don`t count because of supernatural alteration, Dean was at his most badass ever in the entire show in the first half of Season 2 when he was grieving about John. So personally I prefer "dead inside" if it means less "virtually dead onscreen". 

I most certainly hope he doesn`t go back to this. Ewww. 

[catrox14]

ETA: The difference between Emma and Jack IMO for me, is that in Deans mind Jack IS responsible for Cas' death and Marys demise.

He also is able to differentiate between a child of a monster and a child of the Devil.

That's why I really hate the writing of all of this. It's conflating Deans logical and rational  distrust of Satan's Spawn and Dean's separate grief process. IMO, Dean isn't conflating those things despite Sam playing armchair psychologist and diagnosing Dean with "crossed wires".

[Wayward Son]

I just rewatched the fight scene on YouTube and I honestly don’t see anything wrong in what Sam said. Perhaps it’s the Sam fanboy in me coming out, but I honestly don’t see Sam’s words as “If you won’t save Jack then that must mean you secretly hate me too”. All I got from them was Sam saying “When I was in that position you helped save me. can you please help me do the same for Jack?” IMO Sam is acknowledging what Dean has done for him and wants Dean’s help in being able to provide the same sort of help to Jack. I think that reflects well on Sam rather than Sam being like “well of course I deserved to be saved. I’m Sam Winchester! Jack is nothing compared to me” 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I found the entire scene just frustrating. They had this talk before about how they are not on the same page, at least Dean specifically said so and in calm enough manner back then. And I think Dean has accepted that they are on different sides of the issue but Sam has not. He is continously baffled by Dean`s responses so at the end it progressed to shouting for them both.

IMO splitting up was a really good idea. It`s obvious that Dean can`t be talked into parenting Jack. And especially not into having faith in him. Either it`s there or it is not. With Dean currently, it is not. So the best course of action would be to limit his interaction with Jack (and vice versa). Then Sam can work with Jack in the manner that he wants. The bunker is big enough, they could still all live there and make that work. And both Dean and Jack would probably highly agreeable to the idea. 

I realize that this is not what Sam wants but it would be the most reasonably compromise in my eyes. 

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I found the entire scene just frustrating. They had this talk before about how they are not on the same page, at least Dean specifically said so and in calm enough manner back then. And I think Dean has accepted that they are on different sides of the issue but Sam has not. He is continously baffled by Dean`s responses so at the end it progressed to shouting for them both.

IMO splitting up was a really good idea. It`s obvious that Dean can`t be talked into parenting Jack. And especially not into having faith in him. Either it`s there or it is not. With Dean currently, it is not. So the best course of action would be to limit his interaction with Jack (and vice versa). Then Sam can work with Jack in the manner that he wants. The bunker is big enough, they could still all live there and make that work. And both Dean and Jack would probably highly agreeable to the idea. 

I realize that this is not what Sam wants but it would be the most reasonably compromise in my eyes. 

Oh, I agree with you on all of that! I definitely  agree that type of compromise is best for all involved. 

 

I was more referring to the fact that prior to the episode airing a lot of people were angry at Sam and expecting  him to accuse Dean of secretly hating Sam  because he wouldn’t help Jack. While what I saw was Sam praising Dean for his part in helping him and asking Dean to help him extend the same kindness to Jack. 

 

Of course Dean isn’t obliged to fulfil Sam’s wish. But I still think this is a better approach on Sam’s part than the expected “if you hate Jack you must hate me too” or Sam displaying the arrogance people accuse him of and taking the attitude “Well I’m Sam Winchester, of course I deserved saving, who is Jack compared to me?” 

[gonzosgirrl]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎20 at 11:02 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Season to date:

Saves: Dean 1  Sam 2

Kills: Dean 1 Sam 2

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/54626-“bitch”-vs-“jerk”-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/?do=findComment&comment=3739445

 

13x03  Sam did not join in the hunt, so no count for him this week. I'd say Dean and Jody were equally responsible for the save of Patience, but I'll give the count to Dean since he was the brother in attendance and was first through the door. Dean killed the wraith.

Saves: Dean 1*  Sam 0 

Kills: Dean 1 Sam 0

Season to date:

Saves: Dean 2  Sam 2

Kills: Dean 2 Sam 2

[gonzosgirrl]

I was posting in the Patience thread, but realized my thoughts were veering into B vs J territory so.... 

Once again we're having the brothers pitted against each other in an attempt to manufacture drama. It's frustrating because the story has plenty of dramatic meat without going there again, but this is the easy way out for these writers. All accounts say that the division isn't going to drag on as long as some of their angstfests have, but that almost makes it worse, because IMO they are throwing Dean under the bus to get there. Impugning his character (mean and cruel to the poor, misunderstood woobie son of satan) questioning his mental status  (crossed wires, doesn't know how to deal with his emotions properly). And I'm 99.9 % sure this isn't going to end with anythng but Dean apologizing for doing grief wrong. 

And going by the responses I've seen on social media, the character assassination has been pretty effective. No matter how this is resolved now it will always be part of canon. Remember that time Dean was such an asshole? And Sam was so kind and understanding? 

That seems to be the overarching impression that's out there. And yet...

That last scene between Dean and Sam. It was necessary because while Dean's position was basically go along to get along until something happens, Sam was insistent that Dean come around to his position. When Sam made the unilateral  decision to pass on the hunt and help Jack, he forced Dean to choose, and still Dean didn't say "don t you do it", he said "I'm not doing it".

Then, taking Jack's truncated version of what Dean said about killing him as fact, and without context. Setting aside the notion that Sam is once again choosing to take the side of a supernatural being (one he believes can help him achieve a goal) over Dean. Sam basically laid in wait for Dean to come back and ambushed him with the sole blame for Jack being messed up. He literally said that. He's  messed up because of you. I got shades of the Purge speech where instead of Dean being a hero for not 'putting a bullet in him',  it's somehow used as a weapon to beat him up. 

And still Dean's the bad guy. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And going by the responses I've seen on social media, the character assassination has been pretty effective. No matter how this is resolved now it will always be part of canon. Remember that time Dean was such an asshole? And Sam was so kind and understanding?

They did the same with the Amy and the Gadreel thing so this is nothing new. I just find it tedious. It`s not like the people who like the character will fall for it. And the ones who jump on Dean whenever he is not nice enough to their favourites never actually liked him in the first place so the hate-posts are not terribly shocking. 

I mean there is a good portion of being manipulate via Jack being so childlike and woobie right now. Anyone who is mean to him it`s made to look like kicking a puppy. They are laying it on pretty thick right now.  

And Sam is so kind and understanding and shows no visceral grief at all because that is the writers/showrunners trying to get across that he is perfect. They give lipservice to him feeling negative/not-so-nice emotions but they would not besmirch him by portraying that. Instead he is supposed to be wise, kind and wonderful at all hours. And pure of heart with no flaws. And above petty humans emotions unlike stupid Dean who does feelings wrong. 

They have been doing that for several years now, though.      

[ILoveReading]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I just rewatched the fight scene on YouTube and I honestly don’t see anything wrong in what Sam said. Perhaps it’s the Sam fanboy in me coming out, but I honestly don’t see Sam’s words as “If you won’t save Jack then that must mean you secretly hate me too”. All I got from them was Sam saying “When I was in that position you helped save me. can you please help me do the same for Jack?” IMO Sam is acknowledging what Dean has done for him and wants Dean’s help in being able to provide the same sort of help to Jack. I think that reflects well on Sam rather than Sam being like “well of course I deserved to be saved. I’m Sam Winchester! Jack is nothing compared to me” 

The problem with this is that it's very manipulative.  As someone on Tumblr pointed out Sam's speech to Dean is very reflective of what John did just before he died.   First he uses flattery right before putting an unfair burden on Deans' shoulders. 

Sam seems to be forgetting a lot of history.  He might still be standing but a lot more bad came out of Sam using his powers then good.  Sam slid down that slippery slope so fast.  It resulted in him strangling Dean, lying, and choosing a demon over him.   Ultimately, it resulted in Lucifer being free. A lot of people lost their lives in the crossfire.  There have also been times that Dean has come close to to "putting a bullet in Sam. 

With Sam's demon blood they also had Chuck.  Who pulled them out of harms way and scrubbed the physical craving for demon blood out of Sam's system.  They have no help right now. 

Also does Sam not remember that he resents it when Dean tries to look out for him and views it as babying.  Sam was not receptive at all when Dean tried to keep him on the straight and narrow during that whole demon blood saga.    Sam specifically told Dean went to Ruby to get away from Dean because Dean wasn't letting him make his own decisions and Ruby was..  This repeated itself during the trials and caused Sam to reject and resent Dean's help which resulted in Benny having to go bail him out.  

Based on this, say Dean comes around and agree to help with Jack.  What happens if Sam wants to teach Jack use X power and Dean doesn't think its a good idea.  Is Sam going to accept Dean's feedback or is he going to get stubborn again and think Dean's just trying to take over?  Based on how Sam reacted to Dean's big brothering attempts in the past this is a very valid question, IMO.  Does Sam want Dean just to blindly follow or is he open to actually listening, when has demonstrated in the past he prefers the blind follow.  

As we saw in last weeks episode, he expects Dean to just do what he says in regards to Jack.   Since he made the decision for them about skipping out of the hunt.  But its okay for Sam to go out and leave Jack all alone.

If Sam can't see that Ruby played him like a puppet master he's very lacking in self awareness.  Sam is not the best judge of character.  When he sets him mind to something he sees what he wants to see.  Ruby, his visions, the British men of Letters all played him.  As stubborn as Dean's being, Sam is being right now.  He refuses to consider that Jack might go bad. That is just as bad. (Now, I get the writers are portraying Jack as dangerous as a 3 day old kitten to highlight St. Sam vs A-hole Dean, but Sam and Dean don't have access to scripts).

Sam's also lacking self awareness where Dean is concerned.  He's so wrapped up in project Jack that he can't see Dean's barely hanging on right now.  He keeps trying to shove this burden on Deans' shoulders that Dean has clearly indicated he's not ready for, nor does he want.  If Sam is so compassionate where is his compassion for his own brother.  It seems to me that a better approach would be for Sam to tell Dean that he gets Dean not being Jack's biggest fan but can they compromise and Sam will primarily handle jack and Dean not do anything until Jack becomes a threat.   I think Dean would have agreed to that.  Sam's also putting himself in a position to completely absolve himself of responsibility if things go sideways.  As @gonzosgirrl pointed out Sam ambushed Dean and forced that fight.   Now, if Sam loses Jack's trust it won't because Sam wasn't honest and was planning to use him, it will be because Dean told.  The writers have that wrapped up in a neat little bow.

Let's say that this time Sam is right about Jack.  That's he's not dangerous.  Sam started off drinking demon blood with good intentions and that very quickly got out of control and ended badly.  How many times have things with good intentions gone sideways on this show?  Jack is 10x more powerful then Sam ever was and they have no way to stop him.   It almost happened with Asmodeus.  Sam they could stop with a bullet.  Jack they're powerless.

TL:DR version- Sam's view of I got a second chance, so Jack should is to simplistic.

Edited October 29, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

Quote

They give lipservice to him feeling negative/not-so-nice emotions but they would not besmirch him by portraying that.

*Unless said emotions are directed at/about Dean, or occasionally, as the plot requires, John. Even Lucifer is getting the soft-sell from Sam the magnanimous in all this. But Dean, oh Dean is callous and cruel (not to mention short-sighted and kinda dumb) and they have no problem having Sam portray that.

Edited October 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[shang yiet]

At least Sam killed Emma right in front of Dean. He didn't agree to give Emma a chance, sneak around behind Dean's back and killed Emma , kept it a secret and when confronted, admitted he did it because poor weak Dean was confused by his personal feelings. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But Dean, oh Dean is callous and cruel (not to mention short-sighted and kinda dumb) and they have no problem having Sam portray that.

Because he is the mouthpiece in those scene. But still a put-upon martyr because he puts up with all of that. That`s why I hate interpersonal drama between them, it only leads to such eye-rolling content.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, shang yiet said:

At least Sam killed Emma right in front of Dean. He didn't agree to give Emma a chance, sneak around behind Dean's back and killed Emma , kept it a secret and when confronted, admitted he did it because poor weak Dean was confused by his personal feelings. 

Because that's where the opportunity presented. I think it's fairly well established that Sam has zero qualms about sneaking around behind Dean's back and keeping secrets. In fact, if I recall, Amy being in the picture at all was because Sam snuck off on the hunt alone.

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Because he is the mouthpiece in those scene. But still a put-upon martyr because he puts up with all of that. That`s why I hate interpersonal drama between them, it only leads to such eye-rolling content.

Oh I agree, just pointing out these are pretty much the only times we see Sam voicing negative/not-so-nice things.

[shang yiet]

Well then, Dean is just as bad as Sam. Agreed?

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Well then, Dean is just as bad as Sam. Agreed?

It's why I stopped believing in the so called "bond"

[shang yiet]

They deserve each other then, both accomplished liars, sneaks and keepers of secrets. That's their bond.

Edited October 29, 2017 by shang yiet

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Well then, Dean is just as bad as Sam. Agreed?

Are you asking me, as related to the Amy/Emma thing? If so, then no.

[Pondlass1]

38 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Well then, Dean is just as bad as Sam. Agreed?

Neither brother is 'bad'.  They're just both different. But I'd follow Dean right down the toughest road I know.... 

Sam, not so much.  

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree with almost all of this. The Amazons were not human in any way. The forensic guy said that the DNA was not recognizable as human. If Dean had contributed actual DNA, then there would have been at least some DNA recognizable as human in there in my opinion. Dean may have thought Emma was his daughter and felt like she was, but I don't believe that she was.

She was his daughter in some way.  The Amazon needed him to conceive.  Emma had to kill her father.  Something he did created her, even if he, or we, doesn't know what.

 

47 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Neither brother is 'bad'.  They're just both different. But I'd follow Dean right down the toughest road I know.... 

Sam, not so much.  

I wouldn't follow Dean, either.  Pretty much everybody they ever work with gets killed, and sometimes they (both of them, not just Sam) do some really shady things that I would not want to be a part of.

[Aeryn13]

I wouldn`t follow Dean, mostly because Dean usually runs headfirst into danger. And I`m neither particularly brave nor athletic with fighting capabilities. Hide behind him FROM danger, yup.  Or follow him to his motel room for some quality time. Double yup.  :)

In terms of hanging out with any of them, I`m not outgoing or social much so with Dean, maybe watching movies would work best. Cas would be the best fit for me in socializing, I think. Sam is introverted and bookish which we would have in common but he too often shows behaviour and attitude that would make me into a rage-monster. And I`m like Sam there, I go for the verbal jugular. And his is easy enough to find.  

[Reganne]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Once again we're having the brothers pitted against each other in an attempt to manufacture drama. It's frustrating because the story has plenty of dramatic meat without going there again, but this is the easy way out for these writers. All accounts say that the division isn't going to drag on as long as some of their angstfests have, but that almost makes it worse, because IMO they are throwing Dean under the bus to get there. Impugning his character (mean and cruel to the poor, misunderstood woobie son of satan) questioning his mental status  (crossed wires, doesn't know how to deal with his emotions properly). And I'm 99.9 % sure this isn't going to end with anythng but Dean apologizing for doing grief wrong. 

And going by the responses I've seen on social media, the character assassination has been pretty effective. No matter how this is resolved now it will always be part of canon. Remember that time Dean was such an asshole? And Sam was so kind and understanding? 

That seems to be the overarching impression that's out there. And yet...

That last scene between Dean and Sam. It was necessary because while Dean's position was basically go along to get along until something happens, Sam was insistent that Dean come around to his position. When Sam made the unilateral  decision to pass on the hunt and help Jack, he forced Dean to choose, and still Dean didn't say "don t you do it", he said "I'm not doing it".

Then, taking Jack's truncated version of what Dean said about killing him as fact, and without context. Setting aside the notion that Sam is once again choosing to take the side of a supernatural being (one he believes can help him achieve a goal) over Dean. Sam basically laid in wait for Dean to come back and ambushed him with the sole blame for Jack being messed up. He literally said that. He's  messed up because of you. I got shades of the Purge speech where instead of Dean being a hero for not 'putting a bullet in him',  it's somehow used as a weapon to beat him up. 

And still Dean's the bad guy. 

Honestly, this is probably one of the only times I would agree with you that Dean is the one who's being made to look bad at the moment.  We'll have to see where it goes from here to see if it remains that way because at first the Gadreel incident was made to look that way and then the writers turned the tides IMO and made Sam to be the bad guy in the Purge.  Not that I want to see either brother be hated on, but I find that the narrative usually makes it out to be Sam or Cas.  

As far as who's the 'bad guy' and who's going to be made to apologize, I do think Dean is more in the wrong in this situation.  I do however think a lot of it has to do with his grief and that's a big part into why he's lashing out.  That however doesn't make him right.  That's not to say that Dean's totally wrong though either.  I think he has a right to be weary of Jack and what he could potentially do.  If he does turn out to be evil, he could do a lot of damage.  However, I think the way it's being dealt with is more damaging to the situation as a whole.  I think it's actually in the best interest of them to try and teach Jack right from wrong and try to keep him on the straight and narrow path because really... at this point they have no other choice.  THey don't know how to kill him and his powers are only going to become greater once he learns how to develop them.  If they leave him to his own accord or constantly call him a freak or the devil, that could potentially lead to him believing that himself and going directly down that path because "That's what he is" or "suppose to do".