“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

We've discussed to death the opinion of myself and others that Dean being there at Stull did make a difference, so I'm not going to go there again.

The point I do want to make is that the arc that ended in Swan Song was a much, much larger and more developed one in which Dean had at numerous points played a vital role. Even accepting, for the moment, the idea that Dean had no effect on the outcome at Stull, the fact that he happened to have done things like gotten Death's ring and killed Zachariah in the episodes before Swan Song, rather than in the finale itself, doesn't take away his contribution.

Also, as AwesomeO frequently notes, the context of who started/is most directly blamed for the crisis is relevant as well. In Swan Song, Sam was cleaning up his mess. At the end of 11, Dean was cleaning up Sam's mess. So, the merit to demerit ratio, so to speak, winds up really skewed. 

 Dean didn't WANT to be the soul bomb anymore than Sam wanted to be Lucifer's vessel, but they each made those sacrifices to make up for the things they both broke together.

Dean broke the first seal without which none of the other seals breaking could have happened.  Sam killing Lilith wouldn't have released Lucifer unless Dean broke the first seal. So Dean started the process and Sam finished it by killing Lilith. Each of their actions contributed to Lucifer being released. Sam made up for his part by jumping into the pit with Lucifer and Dean was there to be with Sam when he died.  Dean's "sacrifice" was "letting" Sam do what Sam had to do. There was no other choice once Adam was inserted as Michael's alternate vessel. For this viewer it wasn't satisfying but I see what the narrative was pushing. All that said, Dean's actual role in the finale was letting Sam go, being with him when he died and depending on viewpoint being the thing that triggered Sam's memories or the army men in the car.  That was what Dean actually did in the finale. 

Dean took on the Mark in the first place which started the entire issue with the Darkness and  Sam and Rowena removing put the Darkness in play. No one knew until the very end that the Darkness would be released. Maybe Sam had a minute to call Rowena but eh small window for that when Dean and Death are trying to kill Sam.

In 11.23, Sam made sure they got moving, he went with Dean to collect souls on a ghost hunt. Then he waited to know if Dean either was blown up by the soul bomb or blew up Amara and him. He was essentially supporting Dean's sacrifice like Dean supported Sam's in 5.22 but also facilitated the solution and helped gather the souls to his own risk. I don't know what action role Dean had in 5.22. He did have the role of getting the ring from Death in 5.21 but that was pretty much the end of his action role for s5 AFAIR. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't have a rally the troops moment in Swan Song. He decided to go not let his brother die alone. That's why he went. He didn't have any kind of active role at all other than driving there and being a punching bag.

I disagree.

Quote

You listen to me, you junkless sissy – we are not giving up! Bobby? Bobby?

And later...

Quote

Bobby: You goin' someplace? You're goin' to do something stupid. You got that look.
Dean: I'm gonna go talk to Sam.
Bobby: You just don't give up.
Dean: It's Sam!
Castiel: If you couldn't reach him here, you're certainly not gonna be able to on the battlefield.
Dean: Well, if we've already lost, I guess I got nothing to lose, right?
Castiel: I just want you to understand – the only thing that you're gonna see out there is Michael killing your brother.
Dean: Well, then I ain't gonna let him die alone.

And so then Castiel and Bobby show up at the cemetery, too. Castiel Molotoved Michael and gave Sam and Dean the moments that they needed for Sam to break through and open the portal... time they might not have had if Bobby and Castiel had not shown up. But before Dean said he was going anyway and sort of cajoled Bobby and Cas into it, they had given up and seen no point. Even if Cas and Bobby had just shown up to support Dean, Dean was the reason that they decided to go to the cemetery. For me, that's pretty close to rallying the troops that ended up making a difference similar to what Sam did. You may disagree, but I don't think Cas especially would have gone to the cemetery if not for Dean's conviction and words. And without Castiel, there would be no "Hey, assbut!" and molotov, no getting rid of Michael, and maybe no getting through to Sam, because Michael would have been in the way.

So for me, Dean did more than just be there for Sam. He inspired Cas and Bobby to be there as well where Cas played a crucial role, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean took on the Mark in the first place which started the entire issue with the Darkness and  Sam and Rowena removing put the Darkness in play. No one knew until the very end that the Darkness would be released.

No, no one knew exactly, but for much of the season, everyone warned Sam that bad things would happen if he took measures to get the mark off of Dean. Charlie died as part of that, but still Sam did it. The narrative went to great lengths to show that Sam was the one making the decisions that lead to Amara. And though I know you disagree, Chuck confirming it, was, in my opinion, the writers saying that this was mostly on Sam and not Dean... otherwise why have that in there at all?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean broke the first seal without which none of the other seals breaking could have happened.  Sam killing Lilith wouldn't have released Lucifer unless Dean broke the first seal. So Dean started the process and Sam finished it by killing Lilith. Each of their actions contributed to Lucifer being released.

This is true, although Dean didn't know that he was breaking the first seal and did so after years and years of being broken down by torture. Castiel, himself, told Dean that it wasn't his fault. That it was fate. But, Sam was warned repeatedly that what he was doing was wrong. According to the narrative, Sam made the choices that lead to what happened. Castiel didn't tell Sam that it wasn't his fault and that it was fate. He told Sam "You didn't (make the right choice)." For me this is why Sam needed that redemption in "Swan Song" more than Dean did, because in the end, Sam's mistakes weighed more heavily than Dean's, and he was the one almost everyone blamed. I understand that that's my opinion on that one though, and that others' will vary.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Do you think if it had been Bobby or Sam or John Dean would have been so quick to start screaming "kill him"? Or do you think in those instances he'd have been looking for Death to drain them of the extra power instead?

Personally: No.  Definitely not if it had been Sam.  (That's a given.)  But not John or Bobby, and I know you didn't include her, but not Mary either.  And I don't think it depends on which Season Dean we're talking about.  S12 Dean wasn't ready to just write Mary off after she tried to kill them, and he had much more history with both John and Bobby.  In Asa Fox, Sam wouldn't let the other hunters shoot Jody (and Dean was on board with that), and comparatively, once again, they had much more history with Bobby than with Jody.  So I don't think Dean would be so quick to jump to the "Kill him" for either of them like he did with Cas.  

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Personally: No.  Definitely not if it had been Sam.  (That's a given.)  But not John or Bobby, and I know you didn't include her, but not Mary either.  And I don't think it depends on which Season Dean we're talking about.  S12 Dean wasn't ready to just write Mary off after she tried to kill them, and he had much more history with both John and Bobby.  In Asa Fox, Sam wouldn't let the other hunters shoot Jody (and Dean was on board with that), and comparatively, once again, they had much more history with Bobby than with Jody.  So I don't think Dean would be so quick to jump to the "Kill him" for either of them like he did with Cas.  

I really don't think these situations are comparable.  Lady Toni told Dean that she could help them save Mary, and as for Jody she was possessed and Sam and Dean know that you can exorcise demons and save the host.  The situations didn't seem hopeless. 

For me its more comparable to Dean dealing with Souless Sam.  It looked and sounded like his brother but it wasn't his brother.   Dean knew that Souless Sam was dangerous, and he tried to save him, but when that failed, the threat still had to be neutralized.  I really do believe that that when looked into the panic room after he didn't last as death, he was wrestling with the idea that he might have to kill the thing that looked and sounded like his brother.

It was the same with Cas.  It looked and sounded like Cas but it wasn't Cas.  I think Dean knew that.  He did try to appeal to Cas but Cas refused to listen.  Since Dean doesn't have powers, and GodCas could crush him like a bug any time, what exactly was Dean supposed to do?  Death doesn't seem to have any powers but expect reaping, so summoning death could only mean one thing really. 

What could Dean do that wouldn't make the situation worse?

GodCas was that threat that had to be stopped.  They couldn't just let him go on killing.  He was killing human beings, not just angels.  When Dean said kill him, I don't think he saw it as killing Cas, but rather the the thing Cas become.

Plus, when Dean thought Cas was dead, he was clearly upset, and his whole body language changed when Cas started breathing again.  So Cas's death or potential death was something Dean clearly was not okay with.

Edited October 11, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Personally: No.  Definitely not if it had been Sam.  (That's a given.)  But not John or Bobby, and I know you didn't include her, but not Mary either.  And I don't think it depends on which Season Dean we're talking about.  S12 Dean wasn't ready to just write Mary off after she tried to kill them, and he had much more history with both John and Bobby.  In Asa Fox, Sam wouldn't let the other hunters shoot Jody (and Dean was on board with that), and comparatively, once again, they had much more history with Bobby than with Jody.  So I don't think Dean would be so quick to jump to the "Kill him" for either of them like he did with Cas.  

The difference being, at least in my opinion, Sam, John, Bobby, Mary - all human beings, who, regardless of any amped-up powers, or brainwashing, or soullessness, etc, could still be physically controlled, and if not, their potential level of devastation was still limited. Cas, an angel,  had God-level powers and was hell bent on using them to be God.

ETA @ILoveReading this is a good point:

Quote

For me its more comparable to Dean dealing with Souless Sam.  It looked and sounded like his brother but it wasn't his brother.   Dean knew that Souless Sam was dangerous, and he tried to save him, but when that failed, the threat still had to be neutralized.  I really do believe that that when looked into the panic room after he didn't last as death, he was wrestling with the idea that he might have to kill the thing that looked and sounded like his brother.

I absolutely believed that Dean was preparing himself to have to kill "Sam" in that moment. Dean knew he had failed Death's test, and that S-Sam was actively going to fight against being re-souled now, that he was, in fact, willing to kill Bobby to prevent it. I remember watching this play out the first time and thinking, omg, he's really going to have to do it (even 'knowing' that he didn't, since there were already four more seasons at that point, lol). 

And the origins of this thread was that Wayward Son didn't 'buy' Dean's grief over Castiel's eventual death-by-Leviathan-overdose. I maintain that he could and did still grieve his friend, and would have (maybe even more so) even if it had come about by his own hand. Just like he would've grieved Sam forever if he'd had to kill Soulless Sam. The two things are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive.

Edited October 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
spelling

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I really don't think these situations are comparable. 

Perhaps.  But then it doesn't really matter, imo, if the situations are comparable, because I was simply answering a question as it was posed.  :)

Dean didn't even try to figure out how to save Cas, as I recall.  I think Sam and Bobby did some research, but Dean just concentrated on fixing the car.  

Since when does a 'god-level' entity scare off Dean Winchester?  He didn't back down from fighting Lucifer - who was an archangel and could have squashed him like a bug - or Eve, who was pretty god-level herself being that she at least had the power of creation to an extent.  And they didn't know who or what Mother was, but they all kept looking until they figured it out and how to stop her.  It seemed to me that Dean very quickly gave up on Cas and went with the 'kill him' option.  ymmv.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Since when does a 'god-level' entity scare off Dean Winchester?  He didn't back down from fighting Lucifer - who was an archangel and could have squashed him like a bug - or Eve, who was pretty god-level herself being that she at least had the power of creation to an extent.  And they didn't know who or what Mother was, but they all kept looking until they figured it out and how to stop her.  It seemed to me that Dean very quickly gave up on Cas and went with the 'kill him' option.  ymmv.

All of your example still have Dean wanting to kill the entity, though. So, going with the 'kill' option isn't giving up. It's what he does.

 

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the origins of this thread was that Wayward Son didn't 'buy' Dean's grief over Castiel's eventual death-by-Leviathian-overdose. I maintain that he could and did still grieve his friend, and would have (maybe even more so) even if it had come about by his own hand.

Absolutely.  Not only would he have grieves, he also would have had the guilt that went along with that.  But, that didn't mean that he had another choice.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Since when does a 'god-level' entity scare off Dean Winchester?  He didn't back down from fighting Lucifer - who was an archangel and could have squashed him like a bug - or Eve, who was pretty god-level herself being that she at least had the power of creation to an extent.  And they didn't know who or what Mother was, but they all kept looking until they figured it out and how to stop her.  It seemed to me that Dean very quickly gave up on Cas and went with the 'kill him' option.  ymmv.

I don't think GodCas scared Dean.  He didn't care that much about his life at that point anyway.   He tried to figure out a way to stop him, and he risked trapping death to do it.  That itself was a huge risk. 

Again what other options were there?  He did beg Cas to stop.  Cas, IIRC told him that he was "just a man."

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the origins of this thread was that Wayward Son didn't 'buy' Dean's grief over Castiel's eventual death-by-Leviathan-overdose. I maintain that he could and did still grieve his friend, and would have (maybe even more so) even if it had come about by his own hand. Just like he would've grieved Sam forever if he'd had to kill Soulless Sam. The two things are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive.

Agree.  I think Jensen did the best with the material he had available.  We saw that he was having nightmares about Cas and drinking for the record.  I think the writers got too caught up in the Amy drama to really focus on a proper grief arc, but for me Jensen sold that he missed and was sad about Cas.. 

[gonzosgirrl]

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Perhaps.  But then it doesn't really matter, imo, if the situations are comparable, because I was simply answering a question as it was posed.  :)

Dean didn't even try to figure out how to save Cas, as I recall.  I think Sam and Bobby did some research, but Dean just concentrated on fixing the car.  

Since when does a 'god-level' entity scare off Dean Winchester?  He didn't back down from fighting Lucifer - who was an archangel and could have squashed him like a bug - or Eve, who was pretty god-level herself being that she at least had the power of creation to an extent.  And they didn't know who or what Mother was, but they all kept looking until they figured it out and how to stop her.  It seemed to me that Dean very quickly gave up on Cas and went with the 'kill him' option.  ymmv.

It keeps getting overlooked that it was not just Dean who summoned Death. Maybe Bobby and/or Sam did more research before hand, but all three of them were in it together and knew why they were doing it. And Sam stabbed Castiel in the back in an attempt to kill him prior to that (and let's not forget that Godstiel also still refused to heal Sam/fix the wall he purposely destroyed, but that's another thread). So why is it all on Dean? And how does it make his grief any less real?

ETA to the bolded. From the episode recap:

Quote

After the confrontation with Castiel, Dean and Bobby take an unconscious Sam back to Bobby's place. Dean and Bobby are at a loss as to what they can do to challenge Castiel, and Dean decides to fix the Impala until Sam wakes up, at which point he plans to fix Sam. When Sam finally wakes up, however, he insists that he's fine. Bobby catches him acting oddly, but lets it go when news stories about a "young, sexy man" in a raincoat start to crop up. Over 200 religious leaders, the Ku Klux Klan, and a group of New Age motivational speakers are brought down, but Dean is resolved to stay out of Castiel's way despite Sam's misgivings.

While Castiel is busy bringing down corrupt religious leaders and healing the leper colonies in India, Crowley is hiding in a trailer covered in angel warding. Crowley is just having a drink of scotch when Castiel appears in his trailer despite his protections. Crowley thinks that Castiel is there to smite him, but instead Castiel makes Crowley an offer: he'll allow Crowley to live if he returns to his post as the "King of Hell" and takes the souls that Castiel allows him. Castiel notes that he would have done away with Hell completely, if not for the fact that he needed it as a threat to hold over his enemies, and because he and Crowley need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage. Crowley doesn't have much of a choice, so he accepts Castiel's offer.

Back at Bobby's place, Sam's mental state is very unstable. He has a disturbing dream and wakes in a panic, but when he seeks out Dean and Bobby he overhears them talking about him. Dean wants to believe that Sam is okay, so Sam lets him. Instead of telling him about his problems, Sam updates him on more of Castiel's actions. As they talk, Dean gets an idea about what can stop Castiel, and they summon Crowley into a devil's trap. They want him to give them a ritual that will allow them to bind Death, similar to the way that Lucifer bound Death, and make him kill Castiel.

Once Crowley delivers the ritual, Bobby does some research regarding the necessary components. The one item they'll have to steal is a fulgurite, a crystallized lightning bolt, and they drive nine hours to the home of an affluent couple that owns one. Unfortunately, Dr. and Mrs. Weiss interrupt them mid-heist, and Dean is forced to tie them up and gag them. They are present when Bobby, Dean, and Sam prepare and perform the ritual to bind Death.

The ritual is successful, and Death appears, bound. He thinks that he has been summoned regarding Sam's hallucinations, and Dean looks to Sam, surprised by the news. Death asserts that he can't help Sam (there's only "one wall per customer"), and Dean tells him instead that they want him to kill Castiel. Before they can convince him, though, Castiel appears. He threatens to kill them all, but Dean reminds him that Death is under their control. It appears that they are at a stalemate.

Given the givens, I don't think the blame lies on exclusively Dean's shoulders. He even tries to let Godstiel be while it seems he's doing actual good things. And when it goes south, yes, it's Dean's 'idea' and him who gives the order, but all three of them were together on it.

Edited October 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Bessie]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So why is it all on Dean?

It’s not. But Castiel thinks Dean is his bff so it makes sense that the focus is on Dean and his actions and reactions. Bobby and sam weren’t particularly close to cas. 

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It keeps getting overlooked that it was not just Dean who summoned Death. Maybe Bobby and/or Sam did more research before hand, but all three of them were in it together and knew why they were doing it. And Sam stabbed Castiel in the back in an attempt to kill him prior to that (and let's not forget that Godstiel also still refused to heal Sam/fix the wall he purposely destroyed, but that's another thread). So why is it all on Dean? And how does it make his grief any less real?

Actually, now that you bring it up, I find it a little bit odder that Sam just came up and stabbed Cas.  I'm not really sure how much he knew about what had gone on the previous few minutes.  I suppose he could have just been really mad about the breaking of his wall, and I wouldn't blame him.  But, Sam is usually a talk first, stab later kind of guy.  But, he may have not known Purgatory had already been opened, in which case do whatever to stop that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

All of your example still have Dean wanting to kill the entity, though. So, going with the 'kill' option isn't giving up. It's what he does.

None of those other entities were Dean's friend though.  So, yeah, going with the kill option might be what Dean does when it's not 'family'.  But Cas was 'family.'

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

None of those other entities were Dean's friend though.  So, yeah, going with the kill option might be what Dean does when it's not 'family'.  But Cas was 'family.'

God Cas wasn't Cas, just someone that looked and sounded like him.  So I don't think Dean saw him as family at that point.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

1. It keeps getting overlooked that it was not just Dean who summoned Death. Maybe Bobby and/or Sam did more research before hand, but all three of them were in it together and knew why they were doing it. And Sam stabbed Castiel in the back in an attempt to kill him prior to that (and let's not forget that Godstiel also still refused to heal Sam/fix the wall he purposely destroyed, but that's another thread). So why is it all on Dean? And how does it make his grief any less real?

ETA to the bolded. From the episode recap:

2. Given the givens, I don't think the blame lies on exclusively Dean's shoulders. He even tries to let Godstiel be while it seems he's doing actual good things. And when it goes south, yes, it's Dean's 'idea' and him who gives the order, but all three of them were together on it.

1. I didn't overlook anything.  I simply answered the question as posed by @Wayward Son, which was "Do you think if it had been Bobby or Sam or John Dean would have been so quick to start screaming "kill him"?"

And NO.  I didn't think Dean would have been so quick to scream 'kill him' had it been Bobby or John.  Question asked.  Question answered.  That's all.  

2. Given the givens, I don't think I placed the blame exclusively on Dean's shoulders at all.  In fact, I didn't place any 'blame' whatsoever.  That way you.  From the synopsis you provided:

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As they talk, Dean gets an idea about what can stop Castiel, and they summon Crowley into a devil's trap. They want him to give them a ritual that will allow them to bind Death, similar to the way that Lucifer bound Death, and make him kill Castiel.

Basically: As Sam and Dean talk, Dean gets an idea of how to kill Castiel.  Just as I said previously, I didn't remember Dean doing any research on how to stop Castiel without killing him.  That's not placing blame.  That just is.  

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

1. I didn't overlook anything.  I simply answered the question as posed by @Wayward Son, which was "Do you think if it had been Bobby or Sam or John Dean would have been so quick to start screaming "kill him"?"

And NO.  I didn't think Dean would have been so quick to scream 'kill him' had it been Bobby or John.  Question asked.  Question answered.  That's all.  

2. Given the givens, I don't think I placed the blame exclusively on Dean's shoulders at all.  In fact, I didn't place any 'blame' whatsoever.  That way you.  From the synopsis you provided:

Basically: As Sam and Dean talk, Dean gets an idea of how to kill Castiel.  Just as I said previously, I didn't remember Dean doing any research on how to stop Castiel without killing him.  That's not placing blame.  That just is.  

It's part of an ongoing conversation that is broader that just that statement. In this case though,  I was responding to and expounding on your statement that 'It seemed to me that Dean very quickly gave up on Cas and went with the 'kill him' option.  ymmv.' 

My apologies if it got confusing in the back and forth - I tend to 'talk' when I write in fan forums. I'll refrain in future.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

God Cas wasn't Cas, just someone that looked and sounded like him.  So I don't think Dean saw him as family at that point.

That's like saying Soulless Sam wasn't Sam, just someone who looked and sounded like him and so Dean didn't see him as family either.  Which I don't think is accurate, but ymmv. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's like saying Soulless Sam wasn't Sam, just someone who looked and sounded like him and so Dean didn't see him as family either.  Which I don't think is accurate, but ymmv. 

Sam was still a human being and Dean's brother. At the end of the day, Castiel is a supernatural being and, at the point of this discussion, one who had gone rogue on a galactic level.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam was still a human being and Dean's brother. At the end of the day, Castiel is a supernatural being and, at the point of this discussion, one who had gone rogue on a galactic level.

But still Dean's friend.

[companionenvy]

Cas had broken Sam's wall, threatened to kill all of them, killed multiple people, and declared himself God. He also clearly wasn't in his right mind. 

I don't think Dean had ever had another situation where someone close to him was actively threatening to kill him and his loved ones and posed a clear and present danger to the entire world. Even S4 Sam didn't go that far.

Dean tried to get Cas to give up the power. After he appeared to be dead, he grieved for him deeply and sincerely. But Godstiel, unlike Cas, was no longer Dean's friend, and left him with little choice. 

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But still Dean's friend.

Not in my opinion. And Castiel himself said he wasn't family*,  but as you say, ymmv.

 

*from the 6x22 transcript

DEAN: Listen to me. Listen, I know there's a lot of bad water under the bridge, but we were family once. I'd have died for you. I almost did a few times. So if that means anything to you... Please. I've lost Lisa, I've lost Ben, and now I've lost Sam. Don't make me lose you too. You don't need this kind of juice anymore, Cas. Get rid of it before it kills us all.

CASTIEL: You're just saying that because I won. Because you're afraid. (Behind him, Sam picks up the angel killing sword.) You're not my family, Dean. I have no family.

[Wayward Son]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not in my opinion. And Castiel himself said he wasn't family*,  but as you say, ymmv.

 

*from the 6x22 transcript

DEAN: Listen to me. Listen, I know there's a lot of bad water under the bridge, but we were family once. I'd have died for you. I almost did a few times. So if that means anything to you... Please. I've lost Lisa, I've lost Ben, and now I've lost Sam. Don't make me lose you too. You don't need this kind of juice anymore, Cas. Get rid of it before it kills us all.

CASTIEL: You're just saying that because I won. Because you're afraid. (Behind him, Sam picks up the angel killing sword.) You're not my family, Dean. I have no family.

So, if they were no longer friends and family then I was right to say Dean’s grief was hard to buy and overly exaggerated ;) 

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So, if they were no longer friends and family then I was right to say Dean’s grief was hard to buy and overly exaggerated ;) 

Not necessarily.  I think its canon that at some point in time Dean thought of Cas as family. He said it in that last scene that we've been discussing.  But, even if he didn't feel that way anymore, that would mean that Cas died to him at some point between The Man whou Would be King and when he broke Sam's wall, or maybe when he refused to get rid of the extra power.  At any rate, that is still close enough in time for him to begin the mourning process after he actually died.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So, if they were no longer friends and family then I was right to say Dean’s grief was hard to buy and overly exaggerated ;) 

Cas was Dean's friend and family. Godstiel was not. But clearly, mileage varies and neither of us are changing our gauges. And of course you were right to feel however you feel about it.

Edited October 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

Just because you broke with someone (even years before) doesn't mean you won't mourn them.  You might even mourn them more, because now you'll never have the chance to heal the rift (no, not that one!)  That's especially likely if you had such strong feelings (like family) and a sudden break, not just drifting apart (or giving up on trying to mend things) over a long period of time, because an emotionally-charged break means that there are still strong feelings.  

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So, if they were no longer friends and family then I was right to say Dean’s grief was hard to buy and overly exaggerated ;) 

Dean deeply grieving Cas in S7 was pretty obvious as evidenced by Dean keeping his coat and literally crying over it. And transferring it from car to car in S7.

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean deeply grieving Cas in S7 was pretty obvious as evidenced by Dean keeping his coat and literally crying over it. And transferring it from car to car in S7.

That was so completely over-the-top that it zoomed into hilarious territory for me. And I was a little pissed about that, to be honest. Castiel’s death and return should’ve been sad and melancholy not funny. 

I think Collins and ackles have joked about the coat thing. 

Nonetheless, it is cannon that dean carried around Cas’ overcoat for months. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Bessie said:

That was so completely over-the-top that it zoomed into hilarious territory for me. And I was a little pissed about that, to be honest. Castiel’s death and return should’ve been sad and melancholy not funny. 

I think Collins and ackles have joked about the coat thing. 

Nonetheless, it is cannon that dean carried around Cas’ overcoat for months. 

Whether one thinks the acting was subpar or OTT that's subjective, and whether or not J/M joked about the coat thing, I think is fairly clear that the narrative intention was to show that Dean was visibly distressed over, and grieving, the loss of Cas throughout most of s7.

[Wayward Son]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

For me its more comparable to Dean dealing with Souless Sam.  It looked and sounded like his brother but it wasn't his brother.   Dean knew that Souless Sam was dangerous, and he tried to save him, but when that failed, the threat still had to be neutralized.  I really do believe that that when looked into the panic room after he didn't last as death, he was wrestling with the idea that he might have to kill the thing that looked and sounded like his brother.

It was the same with Cas.  It looked and sounded like Cas but it wasn't Cas.  I think Dean knew that.  He did try to appeal to Cas but Cas refused to listen.  Since Dean doesn't have powers, and GodCas could crush him like a bug any time, what exactly was Dean supposed to do?  Death doesn't seem to have any powers but expect reaping, so summoning death could only mean one thing really. 

But see the difference in my eyes is that even if Dean had of needed to kill Sam he tried to find alternative routes first. He didn’t jump straight into “kill first” mode like he did with Cas nor do I believe he would have had that been John, Mary or Bobby. Thats only  MO of course.

 

All we see is one attempt to talk Cas down and then straight to “kill him!”. Even an exchange along the following lines would have worked better for me.

 

Dean: “Can you do something? De-juice him? Send those souls back to purgatory or whatever?”

Death: “No, Dean! The corruptions gone too deep. There’s no way to save your friend...” 

Dean: -looks pained and reluctant before nodding- “Do it”. 

 

The words of Death himself, arguably the most powerful being we’ve ever encountered, would bear great weight and explain why Dean felt his death was needed. As it is though he was way too quick to the draw for a supposed “family” member. 

 

disclaimer: I’m not a writer, I don’t even write fanfic, so I’m sure I didn’t capture the actual “voices” of Dean and Death. I was just trying to express the content of a conversation the writers could convert to proper Dean speak and Death speak. 

 

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It keeps getting overlooked that it was not just Dean who summoned Death. Maybe Bobby and/or Sam did more research before hand, but all three of them were in it together and knew why they were doing it. And Sam stabbed Castiel in the back in an attempt to kill him prior to that (and let's not forget that Godstiel also still refused to heal Sam/fix the wall he purposely destroyed, but that's another thread). So why is it all on Dean? And how does it make his grief any less real?

I’ve never said the blame lies solely with Dean, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. However, the difference IMO was that the show never tried to portray Sam and Bobby as deeply mourning Cas the way they tried to portray Dean. Bobby and Cas were never that close (so Bobby’s lack of reaction made sense) and Sam too barely reacted. In fact I’d say prior to the wall damage getting really bad, later in the season, early season 7 Sam was portrayed as rather hopeful and upbeat. So their quickness to try and kill Cas matches their behaviour after his death. On the other hand, Dean’s quick urge to kill Cas did not match and that’s why I complained about him in particular. 

 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean deeply grieving Cas in S7 was pretty obvious as evidenced by Dean keeping his coat and literally crying over it. And transferring it from car to car in S7.

I’m not trying to deny that they tried to sell us Dean grieving. I just don’t buy it since, as I mention above, IMO he was way too quick to jump to “kill Cas” for someone he supposedly cared deeply for.

[companionenvy]

Sorry to jump back in late here...

I think part of what's going on here is a writing issue rather than a character issue. Godstiel was not a season or half-season long arc that accommodated tons of debates over what to do or attempts to fix the situation by other means. You're probably right that it would have been better if the writers had included at least a line in which Dean asked Death if there were another way.  But the fact that they didn't doesn't, to me, override the other evidence of Dean's closeness to Cas, including his inability to believe that Cas had betrayed him, his attempts to reason with him, and his profound grief at his death. 

As for whether he would have tried harder with other loved ones....I'm actually not sure, if they actually had the kind of power Godstiel had. Sam, probably not, but even there I'm not sure.  As bad as things got in S4, Sam was still working toward the same goal as Dean, and certainly had no intention of killing him. The demon blood gave him anger issues, but behaving violently is a far cry from "obey me or you die." I'd say S4 Sam is more equivalent to Castiel at the time of "The Man Who Would be King" -- doing something potentially catastrophic, but with good intentions -- than Cas after he had actually absorbed the souls. Yeah, Cas still thought he was making the world better, but had progressed by then into full-on megalomania and very much off the free will bandwagon. 

What would Dean have done if Sam turned full-on evil? For instance, if Sam, rather than working with Ruby to kill Lillith with the intention of stopping Lucifer from rising, was actively trying to bring about the apocalypse,, with himself in charge of a new world order in which those humans who submitted to him might be permitted to live, and the others -- including Dean -- would be killed? Especially if Sam by then were even more powerful than he actually was in canon?

I'm not sure Dean wouldn't have killed him. It would have ruined the rest of his life, but I'm not sure he wouldn't have done it. Even as it is, he toyed around with the idea that Sam wasn't his brother anymore, and maybe never had been. If the scenario I"m describing had happened, I think Dean might have decided that the Sam he knew was already gone.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

What would Dean have done if Sam turned full-on evil? For instance, if Sam, rather than working with Ruby to kill Lillith with the intention of stopping Lucifer from rising, was actively trying to bring about the apocalypse,, with himself in charge of a new world order in which those humans who submitted to him might be permitted to live, and the others -- including Dean -- would be killed? Especially if Sam by then were even more powerful than he actually was in canon?

I'm not sure Dean wouldn't have killed him. It would have ruined the rest of his life, but I'm not sure he wouldn't have done it. Even as it is, he toyed around with the idea that Sam wasn't his brother anymore, and maybe never had been. If the scenario I"m describing had happened, I think Dean might have decided that the Sam he knew was already gone.

Bobby did shoot Lucifer-in-Sam in the heart in Swan Song (which is when L/S snapped his neck).  They'd already tried to kill Lucifer with the Colt, and knew it wouldn't work.  Dean saw that he was out of nuclear options, and his only choice was to try to get him to stop himself, by reaching Sam through emotions/shared connections.  He also tried that with Godstiel, and it didn't work.  So the only choice left was to go to a Higher Power to end it.  

IMO, the closest we have to Sam being "full-on evil" (in this context, doing whatever he wanted without concern for consequences or collateral damage, rather than actively trying to destroy the world) was Soulless Sam, after he tried to kill Bobby.  You could see in Dean's eyes that he knew he was out of options:  he couldn't keep Sam locked up forever (Sam had already said it wouldn't work); he couldn't turn him loose because he knew he couldn't trust him not to kill innocent people; and he'd exhausted everything he could think of to get Sam's soul returned.  TBH, if this wasn't a TV show where the hero has to survive, I believe Dean actually *would* have killed him, though, yeah, it would have destroyed him.  Even in Croatoan, I'm sure if Sam had gone full-out Croat in that locked room, Dean would have killed him (and then himself.)  

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, if this wasn't a TV show where the hero has to survive, I believe Dean actually *would* have killed him, though, yeah, it would have destroyed him.  Even in Croatoan, I'm sure if Sam had gone full-out Croat in that locked room, Dean would have killed him (and then himself.)  

I always felt like Dean went upstairs to just take a minute and he was planning on going back down and killing him.  If Death hadn't shown up, Sam would have been dead.  And, that was really weird sentence to type, because out of context it makes no sense.

[companionenvy]

The reason I didn't use Soulless Sam is because I see Godstiel as closer to Castiel than Soulless Sam was to actual Sam. Dean called SS a "replicant." It still would have been horrific for him to have to kill something that looked like and had the memories of his brother, but IMO, the fact that Sam's soul was still suffering in the pit the whole time, having experiences radically different from his body, means that SS really wasn't Sam in the same way that Godstiel was Cas. Godstiel may have been an altered Cas who wasn't entirely in control, but he was closer to an addict (who might do things high he would never do while sober) than a different person. Soulless Sam was a meatsuit with memories. 

In either case, I think Dean definitely would have killed Soulless Sam; to me the more interesting question -- which this discussion made me ask -- is would he have ever killed Sam in other circumstances (and mercy killings don't count), to which I still think the answer is "yes," although those circumstances would have to be extreme.  

[Myrelle]

Quote

The Mary dream was just supposed to set up the "she is dead", followed by  the almost pun-like "nope, she isn`t" by showing how Lucifer conveniently lets her live.

And to allow some in the fandom to label Dean a hypocrite once again and some more and to also allow Singer to pinch Jensen's ear at CC in a "tsk, tsk foolish child" manner.

Hated that Lucifer and Mary were the last shot of the episode and that it was done to expressly show that Dean was wrong, wrong, wrong about that. So I guess I can assume that all of those who can't stand that Dean is "always" right are now satisfied-but oh wait, he hasn't apologized for it yet, so stay tuned. I'm sure that's coming, too.

[Aeryn13]

Well, it`s Dabb`s (and Singer`s) show now which means Dean is now barely competent, wrong about everything, mean and unreasonable and pretty much every negative attribute you can think of.

In comparism, Sam will now have every save and every kill, is the leader, be right, wise and wonderful about everything on Earth. I laughed out loud at the lip service of him being "spun out, too". Yeah, sure, that would take away the perfect image they are trying to convey so nope, that was just thrown in not make him Superman-like on paper since he is supposed to be human. He will never have a breakdown or anything that might get taken as negative like silly Dean. 

I`m sure Dean will be brought to heel and have to apologize many, many times and it will not at all be tefloned to be Sam`s fault like they do in reverse all the damn time. 

If you have two showrunners who look on one character is disdain and think the other walks on water and then you have the Duo, Berens and Perez who all happily agree with that worldview, what do you expect to happen? 

We will see how much Glynn has been given a talking to about being way too nice to Dean. And Yockey probably got a stern lecture over the hiatus as well.

I mean, the montage at the beginning of the Premiere with lots of action!Sam and action!Mary shots while Dean got nothing. Well, there was really nothing to put in. They even included one of the most atrocious episodes of incompetent!Dean from last Season where he just lies on the ground and Sam charges in to rescue him. 

If you like the wrong character here, you will pay. 

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I mean, the montage at the beginning of the Premiere with lots of action!Sam and action!Mary shots while Dean got nothing. Well, there was really nothing to put in.

Nothing in the premiere itself either because Dean getting his ass kicked but not being allowed either the kill or the banishing act continues to be telling as to who Dabb considers the real hero of this show-and it's not Dean. Not in Dabb's mind. Not IMO. Dean's biggest roles are to wring his hands over dead loved ones or comic relief. Any badassity that the character retains is due to Jensen trying to spin something out of nothing writing-wise in that regard.

Oh, but wait, Dabb DID allow him to beat up a sign. There you go, Deangirls-BadassDean in all his Glory.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

This was just about what I expected.

I knew the whole, Dean's too sad wouldn't make sense on screen any more than off about Dean giving up on family.  Right or wrong, its the very core characteristic of the character.  It made no sense then and it makes no sense now,

Jack is an annoying Cas clone.  I don't need a Cas clone.  I'd rather just have Cas.

It feels exactly like I thought from the spoilers.  Dean's being set up to learn one long lesson.  Because, if there is one thing Dean really needs to learn its to not give up on family.

If I truly thought this whole, Dean is sad was going somewhere I might be interested.  But its just being used to highlight the weak Dean/strong Sam trope Dabb and Co. were so fond of last season.  IMO, its also being used to as a way to keep Dean out of the action so SuperSam can save the day.  It's also a way to keep Dean out of the initial bonding with Jack, so later when its time for Jack to save the day all the credit goes to Perfect big brother Sam and father Cas.   Dean really has no part in this story. 

What's the point of Dean's so-called grief arc if he's just going to be made apologize for being upset later.  Dean really needs to lock his feelings behind reinforced concrete because his feelings are always wrong.  If/when Cas shows up again, I feel like the whole thing is just going to be dropped, without a satisfying emotional payoff.  (That's not a spoiler, I don't for one minute believe Cas is going to stay dead).

Both characters have been regressed back to their season 1 personalities.

 

40 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Hated that Lucifer and Mary were the last shot of the episode and that it was done to expressly show that Dean was wrong, wrong, wrong about that. So I guess I can assume that all of those who can't stand that Dean is "always" right are now satisfied-but oh wait, he hasn't apologized for it yet, so stay tuned. I'm sure that's coming, too.

Dabb must have relalized he forgot to strip Dean of his instincts.  It was the last Dean characteristic left.  So it's not surprising those are the first to go. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you like the wrong character here, you will pay. 

I have never felt this to be more true than at the present time and with the present set of showrunners.

[companionenvy]

IMO, neither Sam or Dean did anything particularly badass this episode. Both were competent. The kill was routine. Neither of them looked bad, in the skills department. If anything, Dean was holding his own a lot better than Sam. Circumstances just wound up transpiring so that Sam got the final KO. 

Plus, again, Dean's emotional life was  at the forefront.  

I agree Dean is going to be proven wrong this time around. Sam was wrong last season, about the MOL. Unless you think Dean should always be right about everything, I'm not sure why this is a problem.

Even if the writers see Dean as the second banana to Sam, there is simply no good reason they'd intentionally make one of their very popular co-leads a useless, contemptible figure. It would just be totally illogical and self-defeating. And I don't think you can have it both ways - if Dean's role is to be comic relief, it can't also be to be eternally grieving and depressed.

Honestly, I think the reason Sam has gotten more kills of late is that the writers have far less of an idea what they want to do with him. So it is easy for him to get a generic action scene while Jensen is doing the emotional work. Which I get is not everyone's cup of tea, but it seems to me much more plausible than "writer's conspiracy against Dean."

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I agree Dean is going to be proven wrong this time around. Sam was wrong last season, about the MOL. 

And will that end in a big moment for Dean this year where he gets to speechify to the adoring masses while "look at the hero" soundtrack plays and Sam sits silently and gazes up at him? Pigs will fly before that is gonna happen. That is the problem for me, not Dean being wrong per se but that they give the character nothing positive to balance it out. 

Quote

if Dean's role is to be comic relief, it can't also be to be eternally grieving and depressed.

Sure, they have done that for years. Give him useless emo babble when it is convenient, especially if he is made to look wrong and bad for his feelings. And at the same time making him the butt of the joke. Even Kripke did that way back when in the Misery episode.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I agree Dean is going to be proven wrong this time around. Sam was wrong last season, about the MOL. Unless you think Dean should always be right about everything, I'm not sure why this is a problem.

Well, if balance is what it's all about then Dean should realize that he needs to be more of a leader for being wrong, no? That's what they did for Sam.

 

5 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Even if the writers see Dean as the second banana to Sam, there is simply no good reason they'd intentionally make one of their very popular co-leads a useless, contemptible figure. It would just be totally illogical and self-defeating. And I don't think you can have it both ways - if Dean's role is to be comic relief, it can't also be to be eternally grieving and depressed.

He was comic relief last season. This season he is grieving and depressed.

[gonzosgirrl]

While I'm surprisingly okay with the premiere (my already-stated dislikes aside), I feel as strongly as ever that Dabb as showrunner/writer is the worst thing that ever happened to the character of Dean. I can appreciate that Jensen gets the lion's share of the emotional heavy lifting (and he knocked it out of the park last night), but I can't help wanting my badass hunter back. Good writers wouldn't have to sacrifice one for the other.

S13 save/kill count:

Both brothers were present for the fight, but Sam got both the save (via angel banishing sigil) and the kill. Dean fought the not-Becky angel, but she still stabbed the victim.

Saves: Dean 0  Sam 1

Kills: Dean 0  Sam 1

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

IMO, neither Sam or Dean did anything particularly badass this episode. Both were competent. The kill was routine. Neither of them looked bad, in the skills department. If anything, Dean was holding his own a lot better than Sam. Circumstances just wound up transpiring so that Sam got the final KO. 

The problem this was the MO of the writers/showrunners starting in the back half of last season.  Sam got to use the Michael lance because of circumstances.  Sam got to take the alpha vamp and the alpha hell hound, and got both kills in the goat god episode because of circumstances.  Dean ended up arrving after all the action went down twice last season.    Once or twice, fine because Dean can't have all the kills but its becoming part of a pattern where Dean the writing makes sure the kill goes to Sam.

I don't ever remember there being such a large descrepancy before.  It's become more than noticable to a lot of people I know.  One of my friends is Autistic and isn't on line.  So she isn't influenced by opinions.  She is also very good at recognizing patterns, and even she remarked on it.  So I don't think its' just peoples bias about the majority of the action/kills going to Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He was comic relief last season. This season he is grieving and depressed.

And maybe more an unpopular opinion than bitch v jerk, but I think this is a case of Jensen being a victim of his own talent. He can do the grieving/depressed/emo things so, so well, and is still ready and willing to act the clown and be laughed at, and I honestly don't think this is something Jared  is willing to do. Or maybe the writers who stan Sam can't bear to write him that way. Dunno, but I can think of very few instances before or since "I have genital herpes" where Sam was made to look/act the fool.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Lost and Found thread:

Dean was quite the hypocrite wasn't he?  He gets blown into another dimension, Sam assumes he's dead, and it's five seasons of "You should have saved me!", but when Mary gets blown into another dimension, Dean's all "Welp, she's dead, no point trying to find her".

Overall, I liked it.  Jack is interesting, and I liked Sam being smart enough to use the angel banishing sigil.

Sudden loss and grief to the degree that Dean is experiencing especially the loss of Cas, can make someone feel hopeless. There is a reason why grief counselors say to never make major decisions within even a year or more after suffering a death of a loved one and aside from Sam , Cas is the person closest to Dean and who Dean loves deeply.

Even for someone as experienced with death and resurrection as Dean, this happened within a matter of hours maybe a day.  I don't think it's hypocrisy so much as his grief talking, his prayers and begging going unanswered (in his viewpoint) and his opinion that Lucifer would have killed her immediately which IMO is a not an unreasonable conclusion given their battle with him.

While I agree with @MysteryGuest about the logic of Dean presuming Lucifer killed Mary in the AU (I'm pretty sure I made that comment way back over the summer also), I'm kind of seeing both sides here.  I don't mean this to come across as anti-Dean or really mean, or anything, but I brought it here, because no doubt someone will take it that way anyway, but as far as @catrox14's comments, wouldn't they have also applied to Sam at the end of S7?  It just seems that Dean's getting a pass here (and I agree with him!) whereas Sam didn't.  I think it's because the show failed to show Sam's grief in the aftermath of losing Dean and Cas at the end of S7, and instead picked up a year later - after Sam presumably had time to grieve - whereas we get to see Dean's grief in real time.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I think it's because the show failed to show Sam's grief in the aftermath of losing Dean and Cas at the end of S7, and instead picked up a year later 

My problem was with how Sam acted once Dean got back. I couldn`t stand his demeanor, it was all about being hurt he wasn`t validated the way he wanted. Because the writers felt he should be validated, he was mature and Dean was mean and had no reason to be hurt. So they wrote Sam as righteous deep down and that`s how Jared played it.

What came after was IMO a course-correction.  

Somehow, I doubt Dean is gonna act the same way once they see Mary is alive and once Cas comes back, Even if the writers wanted to trash the character that way, the set-up isn`t there for it. It is there to make him be wrong, grovel and apologize. Singer pinching Jensen`s ear at Comic Con is a dead giwaway about the double standards the writers apply here. Dean is supposed to be wrong from the start, noone at Comic Con talked up how mature and wonderful his outlook was.  

[shang yiet]

Quote

Plus, again, Dean's emotional life was  at the forefront.  

This is what has always annoyed me. The writers pay so much attention to Dean's feelings and forget Sam is going through the same things too.

I have no problem with Dean getting more badass moments but at least balance out the emo and give some to Sam.

Quote

I agree Dean is going to be proven wrong this time around. Sam was wrong last season, about the MOL. Unless you think Dean should always be right about everything, I'm not sure why this is a problem.

I would be quite surprised that Dean being wrong will prove to be a big thing. I doubt the writers will harp on it like they did Sam's mistakes. But yes, I agree, what's wrong with Sam and Dean taking turns being wrong?

Quote

Sudden loss and grief to the degree that Dean is experiencing especially the loss of Cas, can make someone feel hopeless.

This is what I always thought happened to Sam after Dean went to purgatory. He was in no shape to start chasing clues.

But I admit I have not seen this episode yet so I could be wrong but how come Sam is not suffering the same sudden loss and grief?

Edited October 13, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

But I admit I have not seen this episode yet so I could be wrong but how come Sam is not suffering the same sudden loss and grief?

Who said he wasn't? I never said that.  I'm speaking about DEAN here since Dean is the one being classified as a hypocrite. I'm addressing what I believe is Dean's state of mind, heart and soul over the losses. 

[Airmid]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 2:25 PM, Wayward Son said:

But see the difference in my eyes is that even if Dean had of needed to kill Sam he tried to find alternative routes first. He didn’t jump straight into “kill first” mode like he did with Cas nor do I believe he would have had that been John, Mary or Bobby. Thats only  MO of course.

 

All we see is one attempt to talk Cas down and then straight to “kill him!”. 

To jump back to this for just a moment:

Dean was the one person who kept having faith in Cas all season when all Cas did was screw him over.

Did Cas tell him that Sam was back from hell or that he raised him? Nope

Did Cas ask Dean for help at any time before making bad deals? Nope

Did Cas at any time let on his partner was Crowley or that he was in cahoots with the demon when faking said demon's death? Nope

Did Cas actually try to do anything for Sam and his out of control ways? Nope*

Did Cas at any time say that he helped to incite Eve to earth and almost got them all murdered? Nope

Did Cas at any time listen to what was being told to him by his friends? Nope

Did Cas put all of Dean's family/friends in constant danger? Yes

Now, in fairness to Cas he did have concern over Dean, came when he prayed even with fighting a war and was deeply distressed if Dean was in danger.

However, Dean was up front with him, trusted him, begged him to come clean which Cas still didn't want to do even trapped in holy fire, begged him to come with them to find another way that wasn't Crowley/demons. That last one, for all their troubles, got them a broken Sam since it seemed completely okay to Cas to break Sam's wall since he could fix it if they just got out of his way. Even after all of that, Dean asked him to let go of the souls and was pretty much disowned.

And at the very end of Cas' infestation of Levi, Dean was still upset over loosing him - first when he thought he was dead right after they put the souls back, and later when he watched his friend disappear into the water thinking he was devoured and lost forever. 

When even an angel blade didn't make Cas flinch and he had just threatened everything claiming that he had no family - at that point I can see Dean going to extremes. Just like with Sam locked in the panic room when Dean thought he wasn't going to be able to get his soul back. Dean exhausted every known route, and without an eclipse and Cas' willing participation they couldn't suck the souls back to Purgatory. Cas was off doing Cas things and murdering a lot - and at that point needed to be put down because he refused to come home. Even with Death summoned there, Cas showed up claiming that he was tired of them. I'm not sure what Dean was supposed to have done by this point after being betrayed and hurt to such an extent coupled by the threats to all creation that didn't include having to put his friend down. Didn't mean he didn't care, he was just out of options. 

* Personally, IMO, it feels like the writers backed off on this point. Seeing as a bunch of magical/supernatural creatures sensed something wrong with Sam or even that he had no soul but Cas didn't makes Cas look like a dumbass. It felt like they had originally wanted Cas to recognize much sooner that Sam wasn't all Sam and instead enlisted him in his monster hunting scheme to make some use of him. That would make the character actually pretty heartless as well as show just what Cas thought of him compared to Dean. That Sam and Cas didn't get to have a better relationship till much later is a shame.

54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dunno, but I can think of very few instances before or since "I have genital herpes" where Sam was made to look/act the fool.

Season 8's "I hit a dog and forgot I had a brother' arc does come to mind. :)

41 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

While I agree with @MysteryGuest about the logic of Dean presuming Lucifer killed Mary in the AU (I'm pretty sure I made that comment way back over the summer also), I'm kind of seeing both sides here.  I don't mean this to come across as anti-Dean or really mean, or anything, but I brought it here, because no doubt someone will take it that way anyway, but as far as @catrox14's comments, wouldn't they have also applied to Sam at the end of S7?  It just seems that Dean's getting a pass here (and I agree with him!) whereas Sam didn't.  I think it's because the show failed to show Sam's grief in the aftermath of losing Dean and Cas at the end of S7, and instead picked up a year later - after Sam presumably had time to grieve - whereas we get to see Dean's grief in real time.  

Sam having some kind of break at the end of S7 and thinking his brother was dead is actually okay to me. They should have shown something though, or had someone mention what Sam had been like in those first few months. Or even if Sam thought Dean might still be alive, the only way he knew into Purgatory was opening the gate which was just bad news all around. Compare to Dean at the start of S6. He was still researching for a way to get Sam out without opening the Cage because it would erase all they had sacrificed for. There's a time skip for that season too, Dean being shown as still struggling with his choice, while Sam was shown to be off playing house. 

The major problem with that whole thing though is Kevin. Sam knew damn well that Kevin, an innocent kid forced to be a prophet, was very much alive and in the hands of the King of Hell and just didn't bother. He couldn't even check his voicemail. That's against Sam's character and really rather terrible. 

[shang yiet]

I'm not denying Dean's grief. catrox. I was just wondering why Sam is not feeling hopeless too. Again I admit I have not seen the episode but I assume Sam is feeling more zen and positive about things as per usual. I don't know why. He should be feeling the same as Dean. That's my point.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, Airmid said:

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dunno, but I can think of very few instances before or since "I have genital herpes" where Sam was made to look/act the fool.

Season 8's "I hit a dog and forgot I had a brother' arc does come to mind. :)

Good one.  :)

19 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Sam having some kind of break at the end of S7 and thinking his brother was dead is actually okay to me. They should have shown something though, or had someone mention what Sam had been like in those first few months. Or even if Sam thought Dean might still be alive, the only way he knew into Purgatory was opening the gate which was just bad news all around. Compare to Dean at the start of S6. He was still researching for a way to get Sam out without opening the Cage because it would erase all they had sacrificed for. There's a time skip for that season too, Dean being shown as still struggling with his choice, while Sam was shown to be off playing house. 

The major problem with that whole thing though is Kevin. Sam knew damn well that Kevin, an innocent kid forced to be a prophet, was very much alive and in the hands of the King of Hell and just didn't bother. He couldn't even check his voicemail. That's against Sam's character and really rather terrible. 

They absolutely should have shown Sam's grief, confusion, whatever, at losing Dean and Cas in one fell swoop.  I don't even think having someone mention it would have been enough.  We should have seen it.  Much like we are seeing Dean's grief now and as you mentioned, we got to see Dean still struggling at the beginning of S6.  That we weren't shown Sam struggling at all, and were only told about in one terrible line was really detrimental to Sam's character - and in light of the fact that we are seeing Dean's grief now, under Dabb, and Dean's struggling under Gamble, makes me wonder if Carver didn't really have it out for Sam.  Honestly, people can say what they want about what tptb said before the season started about how this was a 'mature' development for Sam, that's not what they showed.  And why does Dean assuming Mary's dead get to be character progression, but Sam doing the same thing about Dean in S8 wasn't?  Again, I'm not putting down Dean here.  I understand why he would think Lucifer already killed her.  It makes sense to me.  I just don't understand the double-standard.  

The one thing I don't give Sam a pass on for S8  is Kevin.  The show could have played off that Sam didn't look for Dean as being 'character progression' too, had they properly showed his grief, but not looking for Kevin was outright character assassination, imo.   

17 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I'm not denying Dean's grief. catrox. I was just wondering why Sam is not feeling hopeless too. Again I admit I have not seen the episode but I assume Sam is feeling more zen and positive about things as per usual. I don't know why. He should be feeling the same as Dean. That's my point.

Fwiw - I thought Jared portrayed Sam as struggling also, not zen and positive - but trying desperately to hold on to any last little hope he could.  ETA: It was a beautifully subtle performance.

Edited October 13, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey