shang yiet September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 Sam was within his rights to set conditions on working with Dean again after the Gadreel fiasco. I don't call it disowning or jumping through hoops, it's more like being on probation. If Dean didn't like it, he could have walked away. Sam is not Dean's jailer. Also, I don't remember Dean apologising over and over again for Gadreel or MoC or any of his bad decisions. Usually he doesn't have to do this because things either turn out OK for him or Sam does something just as bad. I don't see how making bad decisions and remaining in character earns Dean more points than making bad decisions by being OOC. By the way, I think Dean has been plenty passive aggressive and resentful in the past. Anyway, if the writers wanted Sam charging into purgatory to rescue Dean, sure, I agree they could have given him an easy-peasy solution. So they didn't. I don't like the Amelia and dog story myself but I don't think it makes Sam a bad brother who just doesn't care. I'm fine with any number of explanations. He had a nervous breakdown, he was in denial, he was exhausted mentally, they made a pact. Any one will do for me. 4 Link to comment
ahrtee September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, shang yiet said: Sam was within his rights to set conditions on working with Dean again after the Gadreel fiasco. I don't call it disowning or jumping through hoops, it's more like being on probation. If Dean didn't like it, he could have walked away. Sam is not Dean's jailer. Also, I don't remember Dean apologising over and over again for Gadreel or MoC or any of his bad decisions. Usually he doesn't have to do this because things either turn out OK for him or Sam does something just as bad. I don't see how making bad decisions and remaining in character earns Dean more points than making bad decisions by being OOC. By the way, I think Dean has been plenty passive aggressive and resentful in the past. Anyway, if the writers wanted Sam charging into purgatory to rescue Dean, sure, I agree they could have given him an easy-peasy solution. So they didn't. I don't like the Amelia and dog story myself but I don't think it makes Sam a bad brother who just doesn't care. I'm fine with any number of explanations. He had a nervous breakdown, he was in denial, he was exhausted mentally, they made a pact. Any one will do for me. OK, to clarify: the problem I had was not Sam setting conditions on working with Dean again, it was the whole idea that, if he thought he couldn't trust Dean any more and considered what he'd done as unforgivable, he should have either told him to leave or left himself. I'm pretty sure Dean would have agreed without argument, just as he did after Amy (or even this time.) But IMO telling someone they can't be brothers any more *is* disowning them (trust me, it happened to me as a kid) and is a very specific power play, only effective when used against people (like Dean) who are so attached to their family that it is the worst possible threat to them. Sam obviously didn't back down when John threatened to disown him, because he wasn't as attached and *wanted* to get away. But when aimed at someone vulnerable, it's more than "setting conditions" or being "put on probation." Here, and in his "Purge" speech, Sam is attacking Dean's identity, not just his bad decisions. So while I can understand and appreciate the reasons for Sam's anger, I dislike seeing anyone deliberately hitting a loved one's vulnerabilities just to get even/cause them pain. And remember it was *Sam* who was so angry and resentful when Dean "set conditions" and "put him on probation" (and didn't forgive him soon enough) after the Ruby/Lilith fiasco, when Dean wasn't blaming him for breaking the world but just for betraying *him*. So IA that Dean could have walked away if he didn't agree to Sam's conditions (which is what I was saying *I'd* have preferred in the first place) but IMO a large part of the reason he stayed was because he *did* feel guilty and wanted to show his regret. Sam wasn't Dean's jailer, but he *was* being judge and jury, setting the punishment, and Dean accepted it because he wanted to do penance, even if he wouldn't apologize, which brings me to the next point: As I've said before, Dean has *never* apologized for his actions that *he felt* were his only or best option (like Gadreel, Amy, or even selling his soul.) He *did* apologize (or at least admitted that he felt horribly guilty) for lying and for what his actions did to Sam. Sam, OTOH and IMO tends to apologize when his "bad decisions" affect the world--like Lilith, removing the Mark, or working with the BMoL--but not for how his actions affected Dean. Maybe it's because Sam's actions tend to be more earth-shaking, and Dean's tend to be more personal--I can't say. It's not that things "turn out OK" for Dean and not for Sam, because Dean's punishment is Sam being angry with him/threatening to/actually walking away and are internalized, whereas Sam's mistakes have more visible consequences. (I'm not sure where killing Death comes in there, because we still haven't seen the consequences, but I'm pretty sure Dean still won't apologize for saving Sam yet again.) And finally, this is a TV show, and not even a game show, so I'm not keeping score or "giving points" for actions, good or bad. I have a preference for character, based on my perceptions and how much I identify with or understand one or the other. But when the complaint is about bad writing making the characters act OOC, I'm just trying to point out that that is not the same as just disliking the character himself. Dean allowing Gadreel in was a terrible action, but was in character for him. Sam leaving Dean in Purgatory was a bad action, and was *out* of character for him. If people believed that Sam really was selfish/stupid/whatever enough just to walk away, there wouldn't have been nearly as much backlash. Because, yes, pretty much everything I've read has agreed with your possible explanations for Sam's actions, and I haven't seen anyone (here, at least--I don't read any other sites) say that Sam truly is a "bad brother who doesn't care." The complaint I saw over and over (on both sides) was that *nowhere in the show did they actually say or show any of those things, and so it made Sam seem bad.* That's a whole different thing. 7 Link to comment
Pondlass1 September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 2 hours ago, shang yiet said: I'm fine with any number of explanations. He had a nervous breakdown, he was in denial, he was exhausted mentally, they made a pact. Any one will do for me. @shang yiet - You are a writer's dream viewer. For me it's fairly obvious Sam had a breakdown. Too bad writers didn't give Jared a chance to act this out because I think he would have conveyed to the audience and garnered our understanding and sympathy. As it was, we were left to our own devices. It's hard to figure Sam because the writing for his character is often so uneven (IMO). Dean we know. Dean rants and raves or drinks or mopes in his room or punches someone or something. Had the storyline been the other way around and Sam disappeared and Dean drove off and hit a dog and shacked up with a vet and fixed AC units, I'm pretty sure we would have known Dean was broken and defeated inside. They never gave Jared a chance. The actress portraying Amelia was a wrong fit (notice she never shows up at conventions). What vet demands 'this is YOUR dog now' without even checking if the dog had an owner? And the sickly colour drenched Samelia scenes didn't help either. Sam not looking for Dean and the whole Gadreel debacle are examples of dreadful ghastly writing intended to shove a wedge between the brothers for soap opera secrets & lies drama. 3 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Sam probably should have a reaper connection by now. We've just never seen it. It's always been Dean. Well other than Death, who was the boss in charge. Maybe Sam is too important to have a minion reaper connection, I don't know. 19 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Yeah, but that was after the S8 premier - and Sam didn't know that at the time of the end of S7. It's kind of revisionist history and 20;/20 hindsight, like I said. The timelime as I recall ( and I could be totally wrong due to aforementioned ffwd'ing ) S7 finale wherein Sam asks where Dean is. Then goes and hits the dog, becomes a handyman and has a special relationship with a bitchy vet for a year and seems to have *amnesia* in regards to his entire life up until that point. S8 1 year later ( I think ) Dean comes back, they reunite and it only takes a few months to find a way to perform the second trial which is traipsing through **purgatory** into hell. I don't see at as hindsight or revisionist history at all, it only required Sam to research, which he does, like a lot and follow through with his original question to Crowley to it's most logical conclusion which maybe would've taken a few months not a year. * "I had something I've never had before" maybe birthday cake, which, come on really, or a picnic. * ETA : my guess has always been the bitchy vet. ** Since it only took until the 2nd trial to get to purgatory I'm guestamating timeline but it sure seems like if Sam had bothered to research, again something he's good at, he would have found a way to get Dean back without him having to trust a vampire or angel. ** 13 hours ago, ahrtee said: And what I've seen is that Dean does whatever he thinks is necessary without apology and accepts Sam's anger without resentment, and Sam tends to be more resentful and IMO passive-aggressive and less about taking direct action, like actually leaving when he feels Dean has done something unforgivable. I agree with this so much but I can only give you 1 like, *sad face* 6 hours ago, ahrtee said: I have a preference for character, based on my perceptions and how much I identify with or understand one or the other. Again only 1 like, *sad face x2* Edited September 24, 2017 by trxr4kids 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: Dean comes back, they reunite and it only takes a few months to find a way to perform the second trial which is traipsing through **purgatory** into hell. I don't see at as hindsight or revisionist history at all, it only required Sam to research, which he does, like a lot and follow through with his original question to Crowley to it's most logical conclusion which maybe would've taken a few months not a year. Actually, it took a prophet, Kevin, deciphering the demon tablet for the guys to learn about the trials and what they were. Knowledge which Sam did not possess at the end of S7/beginning of S8 - and had no way of getting, since he wasn't a prophet and could never (as I understood) read the tablet. . So, yeah, it is kind of revisionist history,imo. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 September 24, 2017 Share September 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: S8 1 year later ( I think ) Dean comes back, they reunite and it only takes a few months to find a way to perform the second trial which is traipsing through **purgatory** into hell. That's the rub for me. Sam had a YEAR to think about how to find Dean. At least unitl the s11 retcon, he flat out said he fixed up the car and took off. He didn't mention that he was worried about finding Dean or even Kevin. For me, I don't think Sam had a meltdown. I think he mourned Dean and went through the loss and maybe his grief just set him on his way but I don't think he really even considered looking for Dean after he asked Crowley where he was. I think he just accepted Crowley either didn't know or wasn't going to tell him and IMO, he just decided he was dunzo with all of it. I think Sam was all: 1 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 If the s11 retcon is to be relied upon now then there was a year of time for Sam to have done the one thing he should have done and that was find Kevin. But the retcon implies he did the bare minimum and that is actually worse for me than him saying 'Fuck this shit, I'm out. I adhered to the agreement for the first time". I mean if he had bothered to look for Kevin, he would have found out about the trials and the backdoor to Hell via Purgatory and he might have even pinged "hey, maybe that's where Dean went". My non existent kingdom for it to have been Sam and Kevin figuring out about the trials because Sam thinks Dean is dead so he decides to close the gates of Hell. Meanwhile, Dean is fighting his way through Purgatory to find Cas with Benny in tow. Along the way Dean encounters Gordon, Amy, Lenore and Benny's doppelganger from s2, the rugaru guy, some dragons maybe. And then BAM, Dean and Sam run into each other in Purgatory when Sam is completing the trials. Then Dean has to help Sam get to Hell to save Bobby. But only Dean or Sam can come back through the human portal...Dean stays behind because he's still looking for Cas . Sam goes back and meets up with Amelia. Ahhh I feel a fic coming on! 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: am getting a rundown of his sins (and other's sins he was apparently being called out for now) that he thought Dean had forgiven him for - and hadn't asked for - and then overhearing Dean questioning his reliability while instead maybe trusting the angel who screws up as much as he (Sam) does might've had something to do with it. I don't know if Dean ever really forgave Sam because he was never really given the chance to. The shows MO when Dean is suffering from PTSD, or is hurt by how his family treats him is to use "shock" speeches where he's told repeatedly he's whinging or they boo hoo him. Time and time again he's given the message that his pain, trauma and suffering doesn't matter. He told to shove it down because he's not a person, to just deal with it, Sam is his responsibility. It doesn't matter what he's been through, its not supposed to effect him. If he shows the slighest bit of hurt or anger the show turns it into a lesson or outright dismisses it. If you shove something down rather than dealing with his or you get told to suck it up, it doesn't go away. It festers. We saw this in Southern Comfort where it just came out of Dean. (Of course the end result was Sam's double standards that if he says something while possessed, Dean is supposed to write of off as "not Sam. If Dean does it, Sam gets to be angry). Then Dean's lectured by Garth about how lucky he is to have Sam. So it's not surprising to me that these things might still be bothering Dean. Quote Actually, it took a prophet, Kevin, deciphering the demon tablet for the guys to learn about the trials and what they were. Knowledge which Sam did not possess at the end of S7/beginning of S8 - and had no way of getting, since he wasn't a prophet and could never (as I understood) read the tablet. . So, yeah, it is kind of revisionist history,imo. Sam was standing in the middle of leviathan headquaters. It seems to me that would be a really good place to start looking for info on them. Plus they had the leviathan tablet, and Sam knew Kevin was still alive. He could have started by looking for Kevin. So I disagree its revisionist. Edited September 25, 2017 by ILoveReading 6 Link to comment
ahrtee September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Actually, it took a prophet, Kevin, deciphering the demon tablet for the guys to learn about the trials and what they were. Knowledge which Sam did not possess at the end of S7/beginning of S8 - and had no way of getting, since he wasn't a prophet and could never (as I understood) read the tablet. . So, yeah, it is kind of revisionist history,imo. Sticking my nose in to interpret for someone else (sorry if I'm wrong) but I think you're both talking about different things. Learning about the trials and what they were took a prophet reading the tablet. Finding a way into hell (once they knew that was the trial) just took talking to a crossroads demon. Quote from Taxi Driver: SAM: Rescue a soul from Hell? Like actually... Go to Hell? How – how do you get a soul unto Heaven? I mean, how do you even get a soul out of Hell? DEAN: We're gonna need an expert. They then went and trapped a crossroads demon who promptly told them about rogue reapers, which was revisionist enough (as well as amazingly convenient); and we have no way of knowing if they were around when Dean first disappeared (that is, before the writers needed them to be). But even knowing the way into hell wouldn't help them get into Purgatory, since they didn't know the way to hell was through Purgatory until Sam actually got there. As far as they knew, the only way to get to Purgatory (which they *did* find after much long research) was by spellwork during an eclipse. But it does seem to indicate that Dean (the one who's always looking for shortcuts instead of just accepting the answers from lore books) *might* have found another way, or at least would have tried harder. But we have to remember that Dean wasn't there to come up with stupid-sounding suggestions, and Sam was clearly traumatized (or at least, not thinking clearly.) So no, I don't think he just looked around, said, "whoops, he's gone, I'm out of here." But I certainly would have liked just a comment to the effect of: "I looked. And then I couldn't any more." Or even "I was waiting for the next eclipse." I think even Dean would have accepted that without anger or resentment, and Sam would then be free to hit a dog and continue the story (minus one bit of angst, though Amelia and Benny would still be there to create problems). 4 Link to comment
Res September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I don't know if Dean ever really forgave Sam because he was never really given the chance to. The shows MO when Dean is suffering from PTSD, or is hurt by how his family treats him is to use "shock" speeches where he's told repeatedly he's whinging or they boo hoo him. Time and time again he's given the message that his pain, trauma and suffering doesn't matter. He told to shove it down because he's not a person, to just deal with it, Sam is his responsibility. It doesn't matter what he's been through, its not supposed to effect him. If he shows the slighest bit of hurt or anger the show turns it into a lesson or outright dismisses it. If you shove something down rather than dealing with his or you get told to suck it up, it doesn't go away. It festers. We saw this in Southern Comfort where it just came out of Dean. (Of course the end result was Sam's double standards that if he says something while possessed, Dean is supposed to write of off as "not Sam. If Dean does it, Sam gets to be angry). Then Dean's lectured by Garth about how lucky he is to have Sam. So it's not surprising to me that these things might still be bothering Dean. Sam was standing in the middle of leviathan headquaters. It seems to me that would be a really good place to start looking for info on them. Plus they had the leviathan tablet, and Sam knew Kevin was still alive. He could have started by looking for Kevin. So I disagree its revisionist. So sad that I can only like this once. Great post! 1 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Actually, it took a prophet, Kevin, deciphering the demon tablet for the guys to learn about the trials and what they were. Not to flog a dead horse but flogs away, he might have had a prophet if he did jack all to try to save him but he didn't. Edited September 25, 2017 by trxr4kids forgot horse because I can't multi task for shit 2 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: My non existent kingdom for it to have been Sam and Kevin figuring out about the trials because Sam thinks Dean is dead so he decides to close the gates of Hell. Meanwhile, Dean is fighting his way through Purgatory to find Cas with Benny in tow. Along the way Dean encounters Gordon, Amy, Lenore and Benny's doppelganger from s2, the rugaru guy, some dragons maybe. And then BAM, Dean and Sam run into each other in Purgatory when Sam is completing the trials. Then Dean has to help Sam get to Hell to save Bobby. But only Dean or Sam can come back through the human portal...Dean stays behind because he's still looking for Cas . Sam goes back and meets up with Amelia. Ahhh I feel a fic coming on! OMG I would have loved that as long as the duo never put pen to page, lol. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 2 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Sam was standing in the middle of leviathan headquaters. It seems to me that would be a really good place to start looking for info on them. Plus they had the leviathan tablet, and Sam knew Kevin was still alive. He could have started by looking for Kevin. So I disagree its revisionist. I never disagreed that Sam should have started by looking for Kevin. My problem is people saying Sam should have known how to get into Purgatory was through rogue reapers because of the trials when that hadn't even come up in passing in the plot yet. 2 hours ago, ahrtee said: Sticking my nose in to interpret for someone else (sorry if I'm wrong) but I think you're both talking about different things. Learning about the trials and what they were took a prophet reading the tablet. Finding a way into hell (once they knew that was the trial) just took talking to a crossroads demon. Yes and No. (See above). Sam didn't know about the trials until the prophet decoded the demon tablet. That's not the same thing as saying I don't think Sam should have at least looked for Kevin at the end of S7. 1 hour ago, trxr4kids said: Not to flog a dead but flogs away, he might have had a prophet if he did jack all to try to save him but he didn't. And I never disputed that. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 For me, MO, the show itself created revisionist history for Sam with the retcon. Prior to that, whilst I waffled if it was OOC for Sam to not look for Dean, I accepted that Sam just bailed. And then met Amelia. Now, post-retcon, I think it's proper to wonder what exactly was Sam doing for his "I should have looked harder" phase? And that could easily include him learning about the concept of rogue reapers before Taxi Driver, whether he believed them or not. 1 Link to comment
ahrtee September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I never disagreed that Sam should have started by looking for Kevin. My problem is people saying Sam should have known how to get into Purgatory was through rogue reapers because of the trials when that hadn't even come up in passing in the plot yet. Yes and No. (See above). Sam didn't know about the trials until the prophet decoded the demon tablet. That's not the same thing as saying I don't think Sam should have at least looked for Kevin at the end of S7. And I never disputed that. Sorry...I think I was unclear. I wasn't saying (or at least not intending to say) that Sam should have know how to find Purgatory because of the trials. As I said before, even if they knew about rogue reapers before Taxi Driver, they had no way of knowing that finding hell would also lead them to Purgatory. But they had already found one way into Purgatory, when they released the Leviathan. So Sam didn't need the trials to give him an answer, he just needed the impetus to look for *another* way. In theory, he didn't even need Kevin (who didn't help them find the way to hell), though I'm pretty sure it would have helped, to clarify Sam's thinking if nothing else. The trials didn't show them the door to hell--it just showed them that *they needed to find one,* and so they went looking for it, and found it for themselves. That's the kick that Sam needed: the realization that he could/should look for a way to Purgatory. And I think I explained my opinion as to why he didn't. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, ahrtee said: Yes, I was assuming @Wayward Son was talking about the Gadreel fiasco. And maybe Sam didn't threaten to leave at that point (though he certainly has many, many times before and after--even if it wasn't deliberately meant as a threat); but I think outright "disowning" Dean as a brother is much, much worse. And that's what I consider making him "jump through hoops"--insisting that the only way he would continue to work with Dean would be if Dean agreed to his conditions--specifically, that they not be brothers any more. You don't think that's a threat? See, that was the point that *I* wanted *Dean* to walk out, just say "screw it, I'm tired of having to apologize over and over for just being myself. " Because TBH that's the one part of *any* SPN character they've kept consistent over the past 12 years--that Dean *will not* allow Sam to die if he has any way at all to stop it. And I'm constantly surprised that people (much less Sam, of all people) seem to be surprised by that, or expect him to do anything different. They can complain that he's never grown past that by now, but they can't really complain about him remaining in character. So I never saw Dean resenting or being angry with Sam, much less blaming him for "not forgiving him right away." (IMO, that's more Sam's MO--but that's a whole other post.) I saw him feeling guilty (which *is* his MO--feeling guilty for everything, even if he doesn't say it out loud--which is why Osiris homed in on him). In this case, I think his feelings of guilt led directly to his taking off in Road Trip and indirectly to his taking on the MoC. And no, it wasn't just about Kevin--he told Gadreel a number of times that he was unhappy lying to Sam and and the only reason he kept going was because Gadreel threatened Sam's life, both indirectly and, later, directly. He seemed to be feeling pretty guilty to me. But IA he wasn't apologetic, which would have been OOC (and a lie), but more defiant, saying, "yes, I know I was wrong, but I'd do it again, and so would you." And we know that Sam was lying when he said "no I wouldn't," so (again) I'm constantly surprised by how many people got angry at his later acknowledgement that, yes, he did lie. I'm pretty sure *everyone* knew that he would never let Dean die any more than Dean would let him. That's what made season 8 Sam be so OOC. And it's what also keeps both boys alive and working together. ETA: Just to be absolutely clear: NOWHERE am I saying that Dean was right in allowing Gadreel in, or that Sam has no right to be angry about it. I'm not whitewashing any action, and I don't think the writers are either--just that their actions are consistent with their characters. And what I've seen is that Dean does whatever he thinks is necessary without apology and accepts Sam's anger without resentment, and Sam tends to be more resentful and IMO passive-aggressive and less about taking direct action, like actually leaving when he feels Dean has done something unforgivable. So I get annoyed with both of them, but I also understand them both--because (whether for show reasons or just the way the characters are written) neither one is ever going to get angry enough to leave permanently. Both of them wind up forgiving (if not forgetting), or there would be no show. 13 hours ago, ahrtee said: OK, to clarify: the problem I had was not Sam setting conditions on working with Dean again, it was the whole idea that, if he thought he couldn't trust Dean any more and considered what he'd done as unforgivable, he should have either told him to leave or left himself. I'm pretty sure Dean would have agreed without argument, just as he did after Amy (or even this time.) But IMO telling someone they can't be brothers any more *is* disowning them (trust me, it happened to me as a kid) and is a very specific power play, only effective when used against people (like Dean) who are so attached to their family that it is the worst possible threat to them. Sam obviously didn't back down when John threatened to disown him, because he wasn't as attached and *wanted* to get away. But when aimed at someone vulnerable, it's more than "setting conditions" or being "put on probation." Here, and in his "Purge" speech, Sam is attacking Dean's identity, not just his bad decisions. So while I can understand and appreciate the reasons for Sam's anger, I dislike seeing anyone deliberately hitting a loved one's vulnerabilities just to get even/cause them pain. And remember it was *Sam* who was so angry and resentful when Dean "set conditions" and "put him on probation" (and didn't forgive him soon enough) after the Ruby/Lilith fiasco, when Dean wasn't blaming him for breaking the world but just for betraying *him*. So IA that Dean could have walked away if he didn't agree to Sam's conditions (which is what I was saying *I'd* have preferred in the first place) but IMO a large part of the reason he stayed was because he *did* feel guilty and wanted to show his regret. Sam wasn't Dean's jailer, but he *was* being judge and jury, setting the punishment, and Dean accepted it because he wanted to do penance, even if he wouldn't apologize... I'm going to agree with you on some things here, but I'm also going to explain how I came to the positions I did as to why I also disagree with some of these things. Hopefully it won't come across as argumentative, because I'm not trying to be. I actually had originally explained how I came to my position, but then I wasn't sure if you were talking about season 9 or not, so I got rid of all my supporting details. So to start: I agree that sometimes Sam wants Dean to... not necessarily forgive him per se... but trust him again too quickly, but I think part of this is the way that Sam looks at hunting. Season 8 aside, as much as Sam gets out of hunting and takes that job seriously, I don't think Sam defines himself as just a hunter, so he can put hunting into a box. So Sam's agreeing to go back with Dean in "Sharp Teeth" I think was for the job, because when it comes to hunting (season 4 idiocy aside), Sam generally trusts Dean and Dean's opinions... which is why I think he's so annoying and passive-aggressive about Dean trusting him so quickly. I think for Sam, it's an important part of the job, and he can't see himself doing the job if he thinks Dean can't trust him. Sam even explained that to Dean in season 5, telling Dean that Dean could be as angry with Sam as he wanted - In my opinion Sam didn't ask or expect Dean to forgive him right away - but since they were working together, he told Dean that he couldn't see the partnership going forward if Dean didn't trust him more him and start treating him like a partner. I think Dean identifies himself as a hunter, so he has a more difficult time separating that from his personal life. So I'm saying that I didn't see Sam's saying he would continue hunting with Dean versus "being brothers" as Sam trying to torture Dean or even as a powerplay per se. He even gave Dean the choice. And not to be annoying about it, but it's not like Dean didn't do the same to Sam after Ruby. First he outright told Sam that they could never be what they were before - i.e. they could never have the same relationship - then he literally disowned Sam telling him basically "I know you're feeling vulnerable with Lucifer breathing down your neck, but it's just better off if we never see each other again... Nice knowing you. Bye, bye Sam." *click* When Dean decided to come back, he held all of the power in that, with Sam knowing that if he messed up, Dean might disown him again. I could see it in how capitulatory Sam was, assuring Dean he wouldn't let Dean down again, that he'd prove to Dean he could be trusted again... And Sam did work at it. The main time he did object was again because the job was at stake - "Fallen Idols" - and even there he reiterated that Dean could be as angry with him as he wanted to be, but that the job and saving people couldn't suffer for it. I didn't really see that as passive-aggressive myself. Yes, Sam was expecting a lot in Dean trusting him, but he also took Dean's lumps and passive-aggressive digs (like in "Abandon All Hope") as things that he deserved. In my opinion anyway. I didn't see the same anger and resentment that you apparently did - except for a little bit in "Good God Y'All" but I think some of that was War's influence and Sam's addiction raising its ugly head, because once Sam understood that's what was going on, he changed his attitude and tune for the most part. He wasn't angry or resentful of Dean when Dean threw away the amulet, or even when Dean told him those hurtful things in "Point of No Return." Sam accepted them and continued trying to prove himself to Dean. My opinion anyway. Season 8 is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, and again I'm never forgiving Carver for all of that - in my opinion - out of character nonsense. So overall I think Sam did seem somewhat annoyed and resentful that Dean didn't trust him right away, but I think he got better about it, and I don't think he resented Dean for not forgiving him right away. I actually think Sam was pretty understanding about that myself. Your miles may vary. As for why I said that I thought Dean was being at least somewhat resentful of Sam not forgiving him right away, I'll explain. Warning this next part is long, but my reasoning is long.... First there was "Road Trip." As you said Dean was not going to apologize, because he didn't think he was wrong, but he didn't even seem to accept that his choices were even his fault or how they effected Sam really. Here's the dialogue: Quote Dean: All right. Let me hear it. Sam: What you do want me to say – that I'm pissed? Okay. I am. I'm pissed. You lied to me. Again. Dean: I didn't have a choice. SAM: I was ready to die, Dean! Dean: I know. But I wouldn't let you, because that's not in me. Sam: So, what? You decide to trick me into being possessed by some... psycho angel? Dean: He saved your life. So right off the start, Dean isn't really saying anything like "okay, I get why you're pissed. Lying to you was crappy of me, and yeah Gadreel turned out to be bad news..." Nope he even says "but he saved your life." Not what Sam wants or needs to hear at this moment when he's now dealing with having the memories of killing Kevin in his head... which when Sam does bring that up, Dean throws a bit of a "poor me" pity party. And says (paraphrase) "I know, I'm so horrible, I'm poison. I make these horrible decisions that hurt people, so I'm going to go off by myself and get Gadreel..." I know this tactic... very well (personal experience). Usually it is coming from people who don't really see things the way they are saying it, but they want to play the martyr. And I say this because Dean actually doesn't think he made the wrong decision - and says as much later on - so where is all this "drag people through the muck" stuff coming from. Nope, for me, Dean can't have it both ways. Either he messed up or he didn't. If he thinks he made the wrong decision, say so and apologize or at least show some understanding of Sam's position. If he doesn't think he made the wrong decision, he can't also play the sympathy / martyr card - my opinion on that. And Dean further took the emotional upper hand by announcing he was leaving "no, no don't stop me". To me, that was kind of a power play tactic on Dean's part because... this means that now Sam can either beg Dean not to leave even though Sam is rightfully angry or Sam can "send Dean away" putting it somewhat on Sam. I was actually proud of Sam for later calling Dean out on his taking off. So next time they meet up on the same job ("Sharp Teeth"), Dean again takes the emotional upperhand, trying to get rid of Sam. He lies. He assumes Sam should just take second on the case, telling Sam what to do. And then when Sam shows a bit of a chance that he might give in some but says "But something's broken here." Dean doesn't agree and say, "I know and we'll work through it. I'll make it up to you." He says "I'm not saying it's not. I just think maybe we need to put a couple of W's on the board and we get past all this." Really? He expects Sam to just "get past all this" because he says so? And he thinks they need to do that? That is when Sam brings up the "we can work together, but..." thing, and I can see why Sam was angry. Dean was appearing to be trying to take away Sam's right to be angry... and sidebar, I actually disagree with you on the above when you say that Dean was understanding about Sam leaving after finding out about Amy and Dean's lying. After Sam left, when they ended up accidentally at the same case, Dean complained that Sam hadn't called, insisted that they work the case together (I promise we'll just work the case, you can still be angry), and then when Sam did work the case and even kept it cordial, Dean complained he was being a dick and eventually turned it all around on it being Sam's fault saying "You can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch." In my opinion, those two things are contradictory... at least for me. When I'm pissed, sometimes I want to be a bitch. So Dean was saying Sam could be angry, but he wasn't allowed to show that he was angry, I guess. Also, I didn't really think Sam was even being a bitch, but okay... And Sam saw Dean's side and capitulated. But anyway, back to season 9 and this case when Sam was angry... So next case after Sam gives the ultimatum... Dean starts right out being passive-aggressive, bossing Sam around and insulting him at the same time. You go to the morgue and I'll stay here and talk to the gym girls, because you're awkward and weird around women... just being honest (a sarcastic reference to a conversation he and Sam had earlier about the ultimatum.) Dean's not even trying to understand why Sam is angry or make any concessions. Then the argument at the end of the episode happens where Dean again is annoyed that Sam is angry, pointing out "well, you know, I saved your hide back there" (even though actually it was mutual - Sam saved Dean first.) "and in that church and in the hospital" the tone and implication being - and you should be grateful rather than angry. "And I'd do it again" (So there! Who cares if you didn't want me to). I didn't hear any guilt or remorse or even compassion in there at all. No "I get why you're angry. I just couldn't let you die, Sam, and I know that ended up hurting you." It all seemed like resentment to me - I saved you again, just like I always (have to) do, so you should just be grateful and shut up about it. That's when Sam got angry and said all of those awful things, because he was angry and hurt and Dean - in my opinion - did not seem to be listening. After that Dean got a hold of the First Blade and his whole demeanor started changing. He started acting erratically, and by the next episode, Dean was blowing Sam off when Sam asked Dean to go on a case, and blew him off again when Sam called and suggested he could use Dean's help on the case... and he blew Sam off to go drinking with Crowley. Sam ended up being the one to be apologetic and say Dean was right. Not too many episodes after that, Dean was lying to Sam again to get him out of the way and telling him that it was his way (Dean's Way) or the highway. If Dean had been worried by Sam's ultimatum, I didn't see it. Sam in my opinion, didn't seem to have an upperhand. I didn't see Dean trying to compromise or be understanding. Dean seemed more resentful to me than anything else. Sam was definitely too much of a bitch - I'll admit to that - and he definitely hit below the belt at times, but I wasn't feeling Dean being at all understanding or accommodating either. Granted the mark of Cain probably didn't help matters, but Dean's attitude started even before he got the mark, so... 6 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I don't know if Dean ever really forgave Sam because he was never really given the chance to. The shows MO when Dean is suffering from PTSD, or is hurt by how his family treats him is to use "shock" speeches where he's told repeatedly he's whinging or they boo hoo him. Time and time again he's given the message that his pain, trauma and suffering doesn't matter. He told to shove it down because he's not a person, to just deal with it, Sam is his responsibility. It doesn't matter what he's been through, its not supposed to effect him. If he shows the slighest bit of hurt or anger the show turns it into a lesson or outright dismisses it. If you shove something down rather than dealing with his or you get told to suck it up, it doesn't go away. It festers. We saw this in Southern Comfort where it just came out of Dean. (Of course the end result was Sam's double standards that if he says something while possessed, Dean is supposed to write of off as "not Sam. If Dean does it, Sam gets to be angry). Then Dean's lectured by Garth about how lucky he is to have Sam. So it's not surprising to me that these things might still be bothering Dean. I'm not going to entirely disagree with you here, but for me it still doesn't explain why Dean is suddenly blaming Sam for what happened while Sam was soulless and even getting soulless in the first place (which was entirely not Sam's fault)... or blaming him for "killing Lilith" when Sam wasn't the only one who thought that killing Lilith was the answer to stopping the apocalypse. And I think Dean had much of season 5 to be angry, because in my opinion, Sam didn't expect Dean to just get over his anger, and I don't think Bobby did either. So I don't think season 5 counts as much as some of the other times. But if saying stuff like that after anger festers is okay for Dean, then why doesn't Sam get the same consideration? As I outlined above, Sam wasn't really given the chance to be angry about what Dean did either. He was expected to just "get past all this" and within 4 episodes after "Road Trip" was getting "yeah, but" and "You'd do the same" lectures from Dean and a "Get over it" lecture from Kevin. Sam got the same thing after Dean made the deal ("Don't be mad at me." and later "I think I'm entitled, so just deal with it.") In "Sam. Interrupted", he got a "who cares about your anger issues, Sam. just stuff 'em down and shut the hell up." The "Stop being a bitch" ones seems almost minor, but still is another example. But when Sam finally blows and gets angry and says awful stuff - like in "The Purge" - he's said to be just be the worst brother ever for not forgiving everything right away. Edited September 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000 6 Link to comment
ahrtee September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) @AwesomO4000, while I can understand (and even agree with) some of what you're saying, I still disagree with most of how you're interpreting them, so I think we should just agree to disagree. When you say you had personal experience with something you see as a deliberate (and negative) tactic used against Sam, it tells me that we both have an emotional investment in our own interpretations, and will probably never agree. As I said, *my* personal experiences are more like Dean's, and therefore they make me more understanding of (and sympathetic to) his fears and emotions than Sam's. So both of us are right, and both are wrong, and I'm going to leave it at that. Edited September 25, 2017 by ahrtee 5 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Dean actually doesn't think he made the wrong decision - and says as much later on - so where is all this "drag people through the muck" stuff coming from. Nope, for me, Dean can't have it both ways. Either he messed up or he didn't. Okay first let me say I'm not in any way trying to change your interpretation of anything really because I agree with what @ahrtee said above I just wanted to offer my perspective on this. I think Dean has thought he was poison ever since hell and finding out that he broke the first seal added to that mountain of self loathing, but knowing that he still would not say making the deal for Sam was wrong or apologize for it because he had to save Sam, just like the Gadreel possession. IMO Dean squashes that down most of the time to get the job done and his most important job will always be save Sam. I just think that for Dean he was just stating something he feels is a fact and has for a long time, not trying to manipulate Sam at all. Moving back to the S8 characterization of Sam, since I've yammering about it for days now, I think I can finally summarize my thoughts ( maybe, hopefully ) .... I don't think it was really that OOC for Sam to want to give up hunting again especially with everything that had happened. I do think it was OOC for Sam to have just hit a dog and boom Amelia. I can't imagine him ditching the phones and not trying to save Kevin. I can't imagine him not trying to save Dean, pact or no pact. I don't think it was OOC character for him to be pissy when confronted by his poor choices. So in short I think the problem is the order it happened, like had we been shown Sam pouring over books, trying to summon Crowley, etc. then hitting the dog, then being pissy that Dean was pissy it would have made sense. Does that make sense at all? I haven't had enough caffeine yet, lol. 8 hours ago, ahrtee said: @AwesomO4000, while I can understand (and even agree with) some of what you're saying, I still disagree with most of how you're interpreting them, so I think we should just agree to disagree. When you say you had personal experience with something you see as a deliberate (and negative) tactic used against Sam, it tells me that we both have an emotional investment in our own interpretations, and will probably never agree. As I said, *my* personal experiences are more like Dean's, and therefore they make me more understanding of (and sympathetic to) his fears and emotions than Sam's. So both of us are right, and both are wrong, and I'm going to leave it at that. Can I nominate this as most mature post evah, teach me your ways : ) Edited September 25, 2017 by trxr4kids missing words... sigh and clarity for fucksake I need more caffeine before I attempt to post Link to comment
DittyDotDot September 25, 2017 Author Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: Moving back to the S8 characterization of Sam, since I've yammering about it for days now, I think I can finally summarize my thoughts ( maybe, hopefully ) .... I don't think it was really that OOC for Sam to want to give up hunting again especially with everything that had happened. I do think it was OOC for Sam to have just hit a dog and boom Amelia. I can't imagine him ditching the phones and not trying to save Kevin. I can't imagine him not trying to save Dean, pact or no pact. I don't think it was OOC character for him to be pissy when confronted by his poor choices. So in short I think the problem is the order it happened, like had we been shown Sam pouring over books, trying to summon Crowley, etc. then hitting the dog, then being pissy that Dean was pissy it would have made sense. Does that make sense at all? I haven't had enough caffeine yet, lol. It makes perfect sense. I've been saying all along that they really screwed this up by not picking up from the S7 finale and following both Sam and Dean, but instead doing it in flashbacks. Even though fans would've complained--they always complain about something, though--I think it would've made more sense if they had kept Sam and Dean separated for at least four episodes and really delved into what happened to each of them in their time apart. That way, we could've seen Sam and Dean become different people, so when they come back together, the reunion and bristling would've been earned. As it was, it just felt like they were both being dicks without reason. So, not only would've I liked to have seen Sam trying to figure out what his next move should be and just stopping because he didn't know what to do, I'd liked to have seen Dean's first few days in Purgatory until he realized he couldn't stop if he was to survive on his own. ETA: TBH, it's not only that they did this in flashbacks, but what they flashbacked to didn't actually help fill in the blanks we were missing, but only served to give us more unanswered questions. Edited September 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot 4 Link to comment
ahrtee September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 47 minutes ago, trxr4kids said: I think Dean has thought he was poison ever since hell and finding out that he broke the first seal added to that mountain of self loathing, but knowing that he still would not say making the deal for Sam was wrong or apologize for it because he had to save Sam, just like the Gadreel possession. IMO Dean squashes that down most of the time to get the job done and his most important job will always be save Sam. I just think that for Dean he was just stating something he feels is a fact and has for a long time, not trying to manipulate Sam at all. This is what I would have said last night if I'd had the energy. But, since I felt I had already expressed my opinions over and over, and especially because I could see that @AwesomO4000 believed (I assume because of past experiences) that Dean was being manipulative while I felt, because of my own past experiences, that he was just at rock-bottom and stating his own truth without any ulterior motive, I figured it was just a fundamental difference in POVs. So, not being mature, just tired. :) 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: So, not only would've I liked to have seen Sam trying to figure out what his next move should be and just stopping because he didn't know what to do, I'd liked to have seen Dean's first few days in Purgatory until he realized he couldn't stop if he was to survive on his own. I would have liked to see this too. How did Dean get away from those gorilla wolves? With some out of the box thinking they could have left them seprated and still pleased those who like Sam and Dean attached at the hip. Say Purgatory is more dangerous during the equivalent of night time. Dean and Benny are holed up somewhere. Dean starts telling Benny about a Sam. Topside, we see Sam in a bar meeting someone for info. He starts talking about Dean. Show the case as basically a flashback. Set it in between cases in s8 and they wouldn't have to worry about Sam or Dean looking too different. It also showcases the bond because they would have both picked the exact same case to talk about. 5 Link to comment
DittyDotDot September 25, 2017 Author Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I would have liked to see this too. How did Dean get away from those gorilla wolves? With some out of the box thinking they could have left them seprated and still pleased those who like Sam and Dean attached at the hip. Say Purgatory is more dangerous during the equivalent of night time. Dean and Benny are holed up somewhere. Dean starts telling Benny about a Sam. Topside, we see Sam in a bar meeting someone for info. He starts talking about Dean. Show the case as basically a flashback. Set it in between cases in s8 and they wouldn't have to worry about Sam or Dean looking too different. It also showcases the bond because they would have both picked the exact same case to talk about. There was so much wasted potential with the start of S8. I know they created Benny and Amelia so Dean and Sam would have someone to do stuff with, talk to and get the exposition out of the way, but I actually think it would've been more interesting to have kept them each on there own for at least a full episode and just cutting back and forth to each of them trying to figure out how to move forward. Something akin to how they did with the Simple Man montage in Free to Be You and Me. That's one episode right there. ETA: The thing is, I don't think the fans actually want the boys together all the time as much as they want a good story. So, as long as they do justice to the characters and the story, I think they'd be fine with a separation like this as long as they knew it wasn't going to be forever. Edited September 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot 7 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: There was so much wasted potential with the start of S8. I know they created Benny and Amelia so Dean and Sam would have someone to do stuff with, but I actually think it would've been more interesting to have kept them each on there own for at least a full episode and just cutting back and forth to each of them trying to figure out how to move forward. Something akin to how they did with the Simple Man montage in Free to Be You and Me. I'm rewatching Safe House right now, another example of effectively cutting back and forth between characters while cohesively telling their stories. Sigh, so must wasted potential. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, trxr4kids said: Okay first let me say I'm not in any way trying to change your interpretation of anything really because I agree with what @ahrtee said above I just wanted to offer my perspective on this. I think Dean has thought he was poison ever since hell and finding out that he broke the first seal added to that mountain of self loathing, but knowing that he still would not say making the deal for Sam was wrong or apologize for it because he had to save Sam, just like the Gadreel possession. IMO Dean squashes that down most of the time to get the job done and his most important job will always be save Sam. I just think that for Dean he was just stating something he feels is a fact and has for a long time, not trying to manipulate Sam at all. At the risk of looking like I'm repeating myself or trying to be argumentative, I will try to clarify. I don't exactly disagree with what you are saying here in that I agree that at times Dean thinks that he is crap - it's actually one of the things that annoys me about him sometimes: i.e. that he can somehow be so confident in his choices and how he lives his life, but at the same time have the "flaw" of not realizing that he's a good person - however I still think Dean was at least exaggerating for effect a bit here (I'll explain). Even if Dean does think he's crap, he doesn't generally think his decisions are or that he doesn't more often save people than not. He even says so in "The Purge." But... 34 minutes ago, ahrtee said: and especially because I could see that @AwesomO4000 believed (I assume because of past experiences) that Dean was being manipulative while I felt, because of my own past experiences, that he was just at rock-bottom and stating his own truth without any ulterior motive, I should clarify that I am not saying that Dean was being directly as manipulative as that or even as what I've seen in my experience. I guess the best way to explain was Sam in season 8... he was - as @trxr4kids said above - "getting pissy when confronted with his poor choices." Dean here, when confronted with his poor choices, got - whatever this was. And like Sam in season 8, made the situation about himself rather than about Sam (or in Sam's case Dean) - when being about the other brother is what it should have been about. So I'm not saying that Dean didn't think he was crap in that moment... I'm more saying that Dean doesn't always think his choices are wrong, or that he's poison, but he used those feelings in that moment to shift everything to him and away from Sam, so he wouldn't have to deal with the situation. Even if Dean didn't mean it like that exactly, for me, that is still somewhat of a manipulation, just like it was when Sam did it in season 8. It means they were trying to not own their own bad choices by making excuses or deflecting... and for me it's somewhat of a manipulation in either case. So my main point was that to me Dean seemed more wrapped up in his own stuff than he was feeling guilty about what he'd done to Sam and that translated into not acting very contrite towards Sam, but stubbornly doubling down on everything he did and not at all trying to diffuse the situation or see Sam's side of things. This got complicated by the fact that Dean did think he did the right thing to an extent, and all of that translated into Dean not at all looking like he was sympathetic to Sam's position - which pissed Sam off even more... until Sam finally got beaten down and gave into Dean... much like Dean eventually did with Sam in season 8. (so yup I'm saying that in Carver's world, the brothers' bad habits / tendencies were being rewarded in a way.) Hopefully that makes a little more sense. I understand if you still disagree, but I wanted to clarify that I wasn't meaning to say that Dean wasn't feeling crappy or actually feeling some of these things, but in the end, what he did - in my opinion - still shifted the balance of the situation over to himself and deflected away from Sam. Much like how Sam acted in season 8 did a similar thing - making it more about Sam rather than it being about Dean. The ways they each did this just differed a little bit, but for me the general result was pretty much the same. Edited September 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: ETA: The thing is, I don't think the fans actually want the boys together all the time as much as they want a good story. So, as long as they do justice to the characters and the story, I think they'd be fine with a separation like this as long as they knew it wasn't going to be forever. Can't like your post more than once dammit. Link to comment
trxr4kids September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't exactly disagree with what you are saying here in that I agree that at times Dean thinks that he is crap - it's actually one of the things that annoys me about him sometimes: i.e. that he can somehow be so confident in his choices and how he lives his life, but at the same time have the "flaw" of not realizing that he's a good person I don't think Dean is at all confident in his choices or how he lives his life. But I get your perspective and it's just one of the ways we all view things differently, it'd be boring as hell if we all thought the same thing all the time. : ) Edited September 25, 2017 by trxr4kids it's and it'd aren't the same thing 3 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 IMO the impasse in s9 re the Purge, comes from neither of them fully comprehending the other's POV and maybe they never will. It's not because they don't love or care about each other because I think they do, but they are both wired so completely differently. IMO Sam became purposefully cruel when he kitchen sinked Dean's life into the argument because he was pissed and hurt that Dean couldn't grasp his POV because they were diametrically opposed. Sam didn't think he HAD to live and not at the expense of angel possession, and Dean thinks Sam MUST live no matter what. Hence no apologies from Dean because he did what he will always do. Save Sam. IMO, Sam doesn't really understand why Dean did what he did in 9.01 because he hasn't lived Dean's path. Dean didn't have a childhood to speak of( textual canon confirmation in s12) and MO they were actually raised quite differently even if they grew up together, because one child was put into the role of raising another child and the other child was allowed to be a child in many ways if not all ways, because the older child made sure he stayed a child for as long as he could, so he didn't have to lose his innocence just yet. Even if one does not concur that Dean was parentified, despite it being textual canon, clearly something happened to Dean in his childhood and youth that made him think that he was less important to the family and the world than Sam and IMO that was "Something Wicked". Dean was probably as close to being a normal selfish kid in Something Wicked when Sam wanted the cereal Dean wanted, instead of spagettios, so Dean got pissed, threw out the spaghettios and later left to play video games and lost all track of time as a 9 YEAR OLD is wont to do. By the time he gets back, the monster is trying to harm Sam, and Dean freezes because there is a monster and he's scared cause he's a 9 YEAR OLD FFS. Anyway, John rushes in and proceeds to berate his 9 year old for not better protecting his 5 year old. ( JFC what kind of parent does THAT??) IMO THAT was the seminal moment when Dean internalized for the rest of his life that he was not as important as Sam, whether that was factual or not, IMO, it became Dean's truth and he believed it because he saw how John reacted to him, treating him with complete disdain and IMO cruelty, as if John has forgotten that Dean was a child (mostly confirmed in s2 when John said he shouldn't have done that to Dean). That false truth/pathology/belief remains to this day, which is why IMO what he told Sam in The Purge was not manipulation at all but the truth of Dean's existence since he was 9, and maybe right up to s12 when for reasons...Dean had to let Sam maybe go die in a "war" with the BMOL, (which RME was avoidable from the start if not for Mary's lying but that's another rant for another time). 6 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't exactly disagree with what you are saying here in that I agree that at times Dean thinks that he is crap - it's actually one of the things that annoys me about him sometimes: i.e. that he can somehow be so confident in his choices and how he lives his life, but at the same time have the "flaw" of not realizing that he's a good person - however I still think Dean was at least exaggerating for effect a bit here (I'll explain). Even if Dean does think he's crap, he doesn't generally think his decisions are or that he doesn't more often save people than not. He even says so in "The Purge." But.. Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense. I'll most likely fail, but I'll try. I think you have to take everything we know about Dean going all the way back to season 1 when they were building these characters and their story to understand it. Dean built his self-worth, not on being wanted by members of his family, but in being needed by them. There is a vast difference between the two. One is predicated on being important to someone because they want you in their lives. The other is being important to someone because they need something from you, are dependent on you, need you to be a certain way, etc. To only think you're important when you're needed is a a very wobbly base to use as the foundation of your self-worth, because what happens when those people don't need you anymore? What happens if you fail to give other people what they need or want? You feel worthless. You have no purpose, etc, and in the meantime? You feel like every task you do or don't do will decide if those people will continue to find you important enough to have in their lives. You make decisions of what they need before they know they need them and that works out most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't, and you might go spiraling, particularly in a profession where your decisions might lead to people living or dying. It's not, IMO, that Dean feels confident in the decisions he makes or the way he lives his life, but that he has to be the one to make those decisions, and for better or worse, Sam plays his part in that. Two things come to mind at the moment. One is when the Darkness is released. When there was no time to think or act and the tsunami was heading toward them, what was Sam's natural reflex? He calls Dean's name and looks to him on what they should do. The other is at the end of Sharp Teeth when he gives Dean the ultimatum of being brothers or hunting together. Dean screwed up in his decision making, and Sam rescinds being brothers (since they decide to hunt together, and there were two options at that point). Edited September 25, 2017 by CluelessDrifter 6 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I don't know if Dean ever really forgave Sam because he was never really given the chance to. The shows MO when Dean is suffering from PTSD, or is hurt by how his family treats him is to use "shock" speeches where he's told repeatedly he's whinging or they boo hoo him. Time and time again he's given the message that his pain, trauma and suffering doesn't matter. He told to shove it down because he's not a person, to just deal with it, Sam is his responsibility. It doesn't matter what he's been through, its not supposed to effect him. If he shows the slighest bit of hurt or anger the show turns it into a lesson or outright dismisses it. If you shove something down rather than dealing with his or you get told to suck it up, it doesn't go away. It festers. We saw this in Southern Comfort where it just came out of Dean. (Of course the end result was Sam's double standards that if he says something while possessed, Dean is supposed to write of off as "not Sam. If Dean does it, Sam gets to be angry). Then Dean's lectured by Garth about how lucky he is to have Sam. So it's not surprising to me that these things might still be bothering Dean. Sam was standing in the middle of leviathan headquaters. It seems to me that would be a really good place to start looking for info on them. Plus they had the leviathan tablet, and Sam knew Kevin was still alive. He could have started by looking for Kevin. So I disagree its revisionist. Well, possessed by another entity, I agree - not Sam, not Sam's fault (ie, Meg!Sam), just like Shapeshifter!Dean was not Dean. While both Meg and the Shapeshifter had access to their thoughts, it was not them actually saying them out loud. I know I've had some pretty awful thoughts, even about people I truly love, that I would never say out loud to them. But Dean was influenced by the ghost in Southern Comfort to allow his anger and resentment to magnify and manifest in the ugliest of ways, and he pointed a gun at Sam. After which Sam told him to get over himself or he'd walk. Funny though, when Sam had his true feelings magnified and manifested in Asylum, he said some pretty mean/nasty things, he DID shoot his brother in the chest with a load of rock salt, and then followed up by pointing a gun at his face and pulling the trigger three damn times. I think we all know how Dean responded to that. ie, one line: I'm not in a caring and sharing mood, (after apologizing to Sam's albeit-unconscious body for clocking him so he didn't try to murder him again) and the incident is never mentioned again. Double standards, indeed. Edited September 25, 2017 by gonzosgirrl 7 Link to comment
Katy M September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Well, possessed by another entity, I agree - not Sam, not Sam's fault (ie, Meg!Sam), just like Shapeshifter!Dean was not Dean. While both Meg and the Shapeshifter had access to their thoughts, it was not them actually saying them out loud. I know I've had some pretty awful thoughts, even about people I truly love, that I would never say out loud to them. But Dean was influenced by the ghost in Southern Comfort to allow his anger and resentment to magnify and manifest in the ugliest of ways, and he pointed a gun at Sam. After which Sam told him to get over himself or he'd walk. Funny though, when Sam had his true feelings magnified and manifested in Asylum, he said some pretty mean/nasty things, he DID shoot his brother in the chest with a load of rock salt, and then followed up by pointing a gun at his face and pulling the trigger three damn times. I think we all know how Dean responded to that. ie, one line: I'm not in a caring and sharing mood, (after apologizing to Sam's albeit-unconscious body for clocking him so he didn't try to murder him again) and the incident is never mentioned again. Double standards, indeed. I agree that they are both equally responsible for what they said in Asylum and Southern Comfort, respectively. However, if Dean shrugged it off and said he wasn't in a caring and sharing kind of mood that's his choice. Sam was willing to talk that out. 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Katy M said: I agree that they are both equally responsible for what they said in Asylum and Southern Comfort, respectively. However, if Dean shrugged it off and said he wasn't in a caring and sharing kind of mood that's his choice. Sam was willing to talk that out. There was also the stuff Sam said under the influence of the siren. Dean made a comment about now wanting to hold Sam back, and Sam got really defensive, with "It's the siren talking. do we need to talk about this" in a way that suggested he really didn't think they should. Sam wasn't owning up to want he said. He just blew it off. What would be the point in bring it up when Sam refuses to take responsibility. 6 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: That false truth/pathology/belief remains to this day, which is why IMO what he told Sam in The Purge was not manipulation at all but the truth of Dean's existence since he was 9, Just wanted to say in case what I said was misinterpreted that I agree with you that Dean believed what he said in "The Purge" and I don't think it was manipulation either. I was talking about "Road Trip." Whether Dean meant it as such or not - and I'm leaning mostly to not but I waver on that - in my opinion, that whole end speech Dean gave in that episode ending up being manipulative. Sam had just learned about Gadreel and everything that lead up to it, and had just gotten his full memories back, including killing Kevin, which Sam was obviously emotional about. Dean says "All right let me hear it," but as soon as Sam says (paraphrase) "okay you want me to say I'm pissed. I'm pissed. You lied to me!" Dean goes with "I didn't have a choice." The argument progresses and for each one of Sam's protests, Dean has an excuse... so for me, Dean didn't really want to "hear it" like he implied that he did. He wanted to defend his position. Which he did, until Sam brought up Kevin which is when Dean threw all in with (again paraphrase) "Kevin's my fault so I'm going to get Gadreel... but by myself." It didn't matter that Sam might have also wanted some emotional resolution with respect to Gadreel, Dean decided no. Then Dean went with the "I'm crap" argument, which Dean might believe, especially at the time, but that didn't make it any less crappy for Sam, because as Dean finishes his rant and looks pleadingly at Sam, what is Sam supposed to do? Beg Dean not to go? Sam's rightfully pissed, and he wants to be pissed, not talk down Dean right then. So what did Dean want from that moment exactly? That was what I was referencing in terms of being manipulative - whether intended or not. I agree with you that Dean was being truthful in "The Purge." 1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said: It's not, IMO, that Dean feels confident in the decisions he makes or the way he lives his life, but that he has to be the one to make those decisions, and for better or worse, Sam plays his part in that. I get what you are saying, and I agree that this is what Dean has built his confidence on when it comes to his family, but I disagree a little with the part that Dean has to make those decisions all the time - though he likely thinks he does. An example is Gadreel. I think after the initial possession - which I, for the record, don't even really blame Dean for... I thought it was a reasonable decision for Dean to make in that split decision - Dean didn't have to decide to keep Gadreel's secret. He could have told Sam... and potentially Sam might have even agreed that okay, I have a chance to live after all, we'll give this Gadreel a try for now. In my opinion, Dean could've let Sam make his own decision, but he decided his own judgement would be better. The deal is another example. It's something Dean thought that he had to do, but it really wasn't, and Sam wouldn't have wanted him to. I also think that in some ways Dean does feel confident in his hunting decisions. In "the Purge," Dean says "I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing." And I think that Dean does believe that - in other words that what he does is the right thing and that he's confident in that assessment. My opinion on that one, I realize, and others may disagree. 32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: and the incident is never mentioned again. The incident itself I think is mentioned again - sarcastically actually in a "so what, you want to try to shoot me again" way - though I admit I do not remember which episode or that I could be misremembering (though it seems like a Dean thing to do and say.). However, the underlying stuff - about Sam thinking that Dean is just being a good little soldier - is brought up again, and Sam admits that his jumping to conclusions was wrong and apologizes. That happened in "Something Wicked." 5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Sam wasn't owning up to want he said. He just blew it off. What would be the point in bring it up when Sam refuses to take responsibility. Take responsibility for what? That he had some nasty thoughts which were both partially influenced by demon blood and that the siren magnified. It's not like both guys haven't said harsh stuff to each other while not even under the influence. And as my above example illustrates, Sam can - and has - owned up to what he's said and even apologized for it, even if it sometimes takes him a little while to do so. So I disagree that there is no point in bringing something up if Dean thinks it's important. It could be that Sam will think about it and decide he's wrong like he did in "Something Wicked." 2 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 29 minutes ago, Katy M said: I agree that they are both equally responsible for what they said in Asylum and Southern Comfort, respectively. However, if Dean shrugged it off and said he wasn't in a caring and sharing kind of mood that's his choice. Sam was willing to talk that out. IMO, Sam knew that Dean wasn't okay with it and that he hadn't forgiven Sam at all for pulling a trigger on a gun. And honestly, I thought the way Jared read that line was that Sam did mean some of what he said, but not the trying to kill him part. IMO, if Sam really wanted to discuss it again, he could have brought it up again. I think Sam was more than okay to not have that conversation. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot September 25, 2017 Author Share September 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, Katy M said: I agree that they are both equally responsible for what they said in Asylum and Southern Comfort, respectively. However, if Dean shrugged it off and said he wasn't in a caring and sharing kind of mood that's his choice. Sam was willing to talk that out. Exactly. IMO, they've both said hateful and nasty things to and about the other--both under the influence and not--but if they both acted the same in response they wouldn't be the different people they are. They're two different people who react to the same situations differently. Do we really want Sam to be Dean or Dean to be Sam? That seems like a pretty boring show to watch, IMO. 10 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, catrox14 said: IMO, if Sam really wanted to discuss it again, he could have brought it up again. And I think Sam did - in "Something Wicked." He brought it up, said that he was wrong to think he knew why Dean had followed dad's orders, and he apologized. I thought that that brought a rather nice conclusion to the arc. 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Do we really want Sam to be Dean or Dean to be Sam Dabb keeps trying to turn Sam into Dean. All trait we normally see associated with Dean went to Sam last season. 7 Link to comment
auntvi September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Exactly. IMO, they've both said hateful and nasty things to and about the other--both under the influence and not--but if they both acted the same in response they wouldn't be the different people they are. They're two different people who react to the same situations differently. Do we really want Sam to be Dean or Dean to be Sam? That seems like a pretty boring show to watch, IMO. I think what's happening now (and often happens) is that we each make a value judgment about Sam's & Dean's actions. And that's where the disagreements start - who's wrong, who's right, what's bad, what's good. Edited September 25, 2017 by auntvi clarity 3 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said: Just wanted to say in case what I said was misinterpreted that I agree with you that Dean believed what he said in "The Purge" and I don't think it was manipulation either. I was talking about "Road Trip." Sorry I wasn't clear either. I don't think any time Dean talks about saving Sam or talks about being a piece of shit is manipulation. I think that is what Dean means in his heart. IMO, there was nothing for Dean to gain in that situation because Dean wasn't seeking Sam's forgiveness because 1) he didn't think he was wrong for saving Sam 2) because on some level I don't think Dean thought he deserved to be forgiven, which is why he left on his own. He didn't want Sam to come after him and IMO he was just trying to find a way to his own redemption or his own ruination. I really do believe that. YMMV 44 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: And I think Sam did - in "Something Wicked." He brought it up, said that he was wrong to think he knew why Dean had followed dad's orders, and he apologized. I thought that that brought a rather nice conclusion to the arc. But that was more or less the wrong time for Sam to bring it up because of what was going on with Dean and his reflection to childhood. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that Dean should be given leeway to talk abou things when he wants to talk about them, not only when Sam wants to talk about them. TMI time, I kind of have that problem myself. I tend to push for conversations because I'm bothered about something and that's not really fair to the other person. And then other times I don't speak up when I should and I sit back until it's almost too late to have the discussion but it still bugs me. I have to learn to accept that maybe it's the wrong time, and maybe the conversations will never be had and I have to live with it. ::( Self-realizations can be painful :(. 36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Dabb keeps trying to turn Sam into Dean. All trait we normally see associated with Dean went to Sam last season. I've been seeing this myself without seeing any thing added to Dean's characterization. It bothers me. 6 Link to comment
FlickChick September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Dabb keeps trying to turn Sam into Dean. All trait we normally see associated with Dean went to Sam last season. This so, so much! I finished my re-watch of S12 and found myself fast-forwarding scenes more than I've ever done with this series. Also, for the first season ever, deleted episodes (LOTUS cough*cough*) unwatched. I'm so disappointed in what Dabb has done to Dean along with his "new"* writers that apparently been given direction on what to write. So, so sad. *no doubt hand-picked for their ability to follow orders. 5 Link to comment
Reganne September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: IMO, Sam doesn't really understand why Dean did what he did in 9.01 because he hasn't lived Dean's path. Dean didn't have a childhood to speak of( textual canon confirmation in s12) and MO they were actually raised quite differently even if they grew up together, because one child was put into the role of raising another child and the other child was allowed to be a child in many ways if not all ways, because the older child made sure he stayed a child for as long as he could, so he didn't have to lose his innocence just yet. Even if one does not concur that Dean was parentified, despite it being textual canon, clearly something happened to Dean in his childhood and youth that made him think that he was less important to the family and the world than Sam and IMO that was "Something Wicked". While I agree that Dean's issues with saving Sam stem from a childhood of taking care of Sam, I have to disagree with Sam being allowed to be a child in many ways if not all ways. Though Dean tried to protect him from that, he was just a child himself... could only do so much and obviously Sam still ended up having a dysfunctional childhood as well. Sam wasn't much older in Just my Imagination than Dean was in Something Wicked. Maybe a year or two older and John left him by himself.... which isn't exactly a child friendly way of growing up especially when the family constantly moved around and there wasn't ever any time for either child to make any long lasting friends. Hence the imaginary friend. The boys clearly never really had a decent Christmas even spending time with family other than each other. Dean tried to make a Christmas for Sam and even though it didn't go as planned, Sam as a child appreciated the gesture more than he would have the gifts I think. Not always of course, but these kinds of behaviours in a child can stem from them being used to not getting much. And this obviously goes for both of them. I don't think they've ever really had much in the way of possessions. Everything they had would have had to travel with them in a backpack in the impala. Not to mention, both children were handed guns at extremely young ages and taught to shoot. THough Dean may have been younger than Sam, that still doesn't take away from the fact that he was still required to work a firearm at a young age. Not to mention the disruption to the boys school lives with constantly moving and missing classes... which would also severely disrupt their normal childhood development and education. There was no consistency in their lives period. The only thing that was consistent in their lives was each other 4 Link to comment
catrox14 September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Reganne said: Not to mention, both children were handed guns at extremely young ages and taught to shoot. THough Dean may have been younger than Sam, that still doesn't take away from the fact that he was still required to work a firearm at a young age. Not to mention the disruption to the boys school lives with constantly moving and missing classes... which would also severely disrupt their normal childhood development and education. There was no consistency in their lives period. The only thing that was consistent in their lives was each other I never said Sam or Dean had a normal childhood. Didn't imply it either. The point of my comment was that Sam had the chance to be a child in ways that Dean never had the chance to have. I was not saying that Sam also didn't have a fucked up childhood. I mean that seems to go without saying see we all watch the show enough to gab about it here. 4 Link to comment
ahrtee September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 31 minutes ago, Reganne said: While I agree that Dean's issues with saving Sam stem from a childhood of taking care of Sam, I have to disagree with Sam being allowed to be a child in many ways if not all ways. 10 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I never said Sam or Dean had a normal childhood. Didn't imply it either. The point of my comment was that Sam had the chance to be a child in ways that Dean never had the chance to have. I was not saying that Sam also didn't have a fucked up childhood. I mean that seems to go without saying see we all watch the show enough to gab about it here. IA with @catrox14 here. Yes, Sam definitely didn't have a normal childhood, but he also did have some normal times--much more than Dean did, and both John and Dean had to be deliberately working to allow/create it. Just as examples: Sam believed in Santa Claus, at least till Dean told him otherwise (which IMO is usually a big brother's prerogative.) The implies some level of innocence that John allowed, if not encouraged. It wasn't as if he'd handed Sam a gun and said, "if a fat man wearing a red suit with a full beard breaks in here, you shoot first and ask questions later." Sam didn't even know about monsters till he was 8 and discovered it for himself. (John didn't give him a gun to shoot the monster in the closet till a year later, and had probably been in training already.) Dean knew by the time he was 4, and was already being taught to shoot by age 6. (Here's a question: if Sam hadn't stolen John's journal and forced the issue when he was 8, when do you think John would have told him? I'm guessing not for at least another few years, when he would be old enough to start training seriously. So in theory, part of Sam's truncated childhood was his own fault. And no, I'm not blaming him for the fact that he was so smart and way too curious!) But John would never have left him alone when he didn't know about monsters and how to protect himself, so in theory he wouldn't have needed Sully, because Dean would have been left behind to watch him, at least until he was old enough not to believe in imaginary friends. (Even if a brother is a poor substitute for school friends and sometimes dumps him at Plucky Pennywhistle's so he can pick up girls--which IMO is also "normal" teenager-stuck-babysitting-younger-brother behavior!) : ) And finally, Sam's childhood memento (saved by John in his storage unit) was his soccer trophy--which, BTW, implies that he was in one school long enough to join a team, play well enough to be included in the championship game (which also suggested that he went to after school practice and had friends among his teammates) and win the division championship; and that John was proud of him, even if he didn't tell Sam directly. Dean's memento was the sawed-off shotgun he made himself in 6th grade. This isn't intended as a Sam-vs-Dean, who-had-it-harder comparison, just pointing out that yes, Sam did have at least some normal childhood, and that John and Dean either allowed or actively encouraged it. 8 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Katy M said: I agree that they are both equally responsible for what they said in Asylum and Southern Comfort, respectively. However, if Dean shrugged it off and said he wasn't in a caring and sharing kind of mood that's his choice. Sam was willing to talk that out. They both said ugly things, rooted in truth. But Sam shot Dean, first just because he knew it would 'hurt like hell' and shut him up, and then actively sought to kill him by pulling the trigger on what he believed to be a loaded gun three times. Not being anxious to hug that out immediately afterward doesn't make Dean the bad guy in this scenario. And bringing it up once weeks (months?) later doesn't equate to threatening to walk out of his life. Not to mention, at that point, Sam hadn't just spent a year running for his life in Purgatory. So personally, I don't think it's Dean who has the forgiveness issues. 7 Link to comment
Reganne September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 51 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I never said Sam or Dean had a normal childhood. Didn't imply it either. The point of my comment was that Sam had the chance to be a child in ways that Dean never had the chance to have. I was not saying that Sam also didn't have a fucked up childhood. I mean that seems to go without saying see we all watch the show enough to gab about it here. Sorry. I was focusing on the sentence that said the other child was allowed to be a child in many ways if not all. Now I understand that you meant in comparison to Dean. Though I still somewhat disagree. There was actually things Dean had in his childhood that Sam never got. For the first 4 and 3/4s of Dean's life, he had a mother who fed him pie, sang him Hey Jude and made him tomato rice soup when he was sick. In Something Wicked... Sam sat in front of the tv as John was in the process of leaving for days and he doesn't so much as give a glance towards his father's direction or say goodbye. Almost like he doesn't even care that he's leaving. Now I'm not saying that Sam has had it worse. I just think some fans ignore how much Sam actually lost in his childhood because they are so focused on Dean's childhood trauma and the fact that Dean was burdened with having to take care of a younger brother. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 Just now, Reganne said: There was actually things Dean had in his childhood that Sam never got. For the first 4 and 3/4s of Dean's life, he had a mother who fed him pie, sang him Hey Jude and made him tomato rice soup when he was sick. In Something Wicked... Sam sat in front of the tv as John was in the process of leaving for days and he doesn't so much as give a glance towards his father's direction or say goodbye. Almost like he doesn't even care that he's leaving. Dean had his mother do lovely things for him and then he got to watch her burn to death on the ceiling and had to run with his baby brother in his arms. His childhood ended at 4. Dean, as a child and teen provided Sam with some of those mothering things that he never got from Mary or John like make his dinner be it spaghettios, mac and cheese, cereal; nursed his wounds and took him to the ER when he jumped off the roof; made sure he had his homework and books for school. No, Dean wasn't Mary but Sam did get some mothering from Dean (which Dean acknowledges in 12.22). 6 Link to comment
ahrtee September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Reganne said: In Something Wicked... Sam sat in front of the tv as John was in the process of leaving for days and he doesn't so much as give a glance towards his father's direction or say goodbye. Almost like he doesn't even care that he's leaving. IMO, there was no real reason for Sam to care that John was leaving--he still had his primary caregiver (that is, Dean) there taking care of him. I could see him considering John as some blustery uncle who pops in and out of their lives, moves them around and buys the groceries, but isn't really involved in taking care of them. Sam actually seemed surprised that John was hugging him when he woke up after the shtriga attack. Edited September 26, 2017 by ahrtee tenses should be consistent.. 5 Link to comment
Katy M September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Not being anxious to hug that out immediately afterward doesn't make Dean the bad guy in this scenario I never said Dean was the bad guy. I just meant that they reacted differently, so you can't call it a double standard. Dean didn't get upset and threaten to leave. That doesn't mean that Sam would have thought that Dean was wrong to have done so if that had been his choice. 2 minutes ago, ahrtee said: IMO, there was no real reason for Sam to care that John was leaving--he still had his primary caregiver (that is, Dean) there taking care of him. I could see him considering John as some blustery uncle who pops in and out of their lives, moves them around and buys the groceries, but isn't really involved in taking care of them. Sam actually seemed surprised that John was hugging him when he woke up after the shtriga attack. I'd be pretty surprised if I was sound asleep and woke up to one of my parents hugging me, too. Though, I think the bigger mystery is how Sam slept through all that gunfire. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, Reganne said: Now I'm not saying that Sam has had it worse. I just think some fans ignore how much Sam actually lost in his childhood because they are so focused on Dean's childhood trauma and the fact that Dean was burdened with having to take care of a younger brother. I made a post about Dean's decision making and mind frame and why he makes the choices he does because of his childhood. I'm not sure how that amounts to me ignoring Sam's past when that wasn't the point of my comment. 4 Link to comment
trxr4kids September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 I think it gets tossed around that Dean had normal for almost five years but it's not like he remembers infancy or toddlerhood. At best he has a few fuzzy memories. 5 Link to comment
ahrtee September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Reganne said: There was actually things Dean had in his childhood that Sam never got. For the first 4 and 3/4s of Dean's life, he had a mother who fed him pie, sang him Hey Jude and made him tomato rice soup when he was sick. This is something people keep pointing to, as if having something good for the first four years of your life should make the rest of your life better. Honestly, how much do you remember of your first four years? Most of Dean's childhood memories (or at least the flashbacks) are only of the last 6 months or so before Mary died, when Dean was old enough to understand and make sense of things. And I know (yes, from personal experience) that traumatic events in childhood tend to stick with you longer (and cause more damage to future emotional growth) than happy memories. (And, as @catrox14 pointed out, Sam did have nurturing and security in his early childhood--maybe more than Dean did in total.) ETA: Or what @trxr4kids just said while I was writing this. 10 minutes ago, Katy M said: I'd be pretty surprised if I was sound asleep and woke up to one of my parents hugging me, too. Though, I think the bigger mystery is how Sam slept through all that gunfire. IA about the gunfire! : ) Though I assume he was groggy from having part of his life force sucked out. But to be serious, I went through a traumatic event when I was about 3 or 4. I didn't even remember the details until I was much older, much less understand how it affected me (and it did give me phobias and anxieties for life). But I *do* remember that my parents were panicked, and that scared the crap out of me, because I didn't understand what was going on or why they were scared. Kids can pick up on emotions when they don't have the ability to understand meanings. Edited September 26, 2017 by ahrtee 6 Link to comment
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