“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[mertensia]

Dean was as clueless as Sam about Azazel being interested in Sam and Sam being special until the events of Season One started happening; he wasn't hiding anything from Sam about that.

As for Dean just being able to toss it all away and go to college? Not after John got done indoctrinating him. 

[Wayward Son]

4 hours ago, sugarbabex23 said:

I honestly don't think Dean even sees Sam as an equal. I think he sees him as a child that shouldn't make decisions without his approval first. 

That is a rather obvious conclusion I have come to also. The biggest example of this viewpoint in action takes place at the start of S9. When instead of providing Sam with all of the facts and allowing him to come to an informed decision like an adult Dean decides conspiring with Gadreel into allowing the supernatural rape of Sam to take place is a much better idea. 

 

@mertensia

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Not after John got done indoctrinating him

This excuse only works to a certain extent. Sam also had a childhood of John and his attempts at indoctrination and managed to fight his way through it! 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This excuse only works to a certain extent. Sam also had a childhood of John and his attempts at indoctrination and managed to fight his way through it! 

They didn`t have quite the same situations but IMO this kind of thinking fuels Sam`s superiority complex towards his brother where obviously Sam is stronger and better and Dean somehow weak and pathetic. And that`s why he doesn`t truly see Dean as an equal if he is honest with himself. But he sees any questioning of him as a complete insult.

IMO Sam wasn`t miffed that Dean always listened to John so much as that he didn`t listen to Sam and take Sam`s side. In other words, the power imbalance in itself wasn`t the problem, it was the problem for him that Dean said "yes Sir" to the wrong person. He`d happily recreate the dynamic, just with him on the "right" end of the power scale and he would totally tell himself that it is different. 

That`s why I find any "you don`t respect me" whining so deeply hypocritical from Sam because the kind of respect that HE truly demands, he is most certainly not willing to give. But of course he never confronts that truth about himself. And noone on the show does it either.   

When Sam gets angry (and honest) enough, he always uses ad hominem attacks. But he himself can`t even take attacks on his actions without breaking out the victimhood card about it. God forbid, anyone used the kind of attacks on the entire personhood on him that he favours on others. The victim complex would be out of this world.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

This excuse only works to a certain extent. Sam also had a childhood of John and his attempts at indoctrination and managed to fight his way through it! 

Dean's Prime Directive has been "look after your brother" since he was four. His life centered around that. 

Sam's was more along the line of "do what I say and why can't you be more like Dean?"  (Which alone probably made him want to run far, far away screaming.) Also, canonically, there were demons interacting with him encouraging him to be more independent.

Plus, they have their own personalities. 

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They didn`t have quite the same situations but IMO this kind of thinking fuels Sam`s superiority complex towards his brother where obviously Sam is stronger and better and Dean somehow weak and pathetic. And that`s why he doesn`t truly see Dean as an equal if he is honest with himself. But he sees any questioning of him as a complete insult.

See I think if one is going to make the argument "Dean stayed solely because of indoctrination while Sam chose to leave freely" it can easily lead to the conclusion Sam is the stronger person mentally. That is why I personally disagree with such an argument. IMO both brothers freely made a choice. Dean chose to stay hunting with John and Sam chose to pursue a different lifestyle in Stanford. Both choices were valid and made sense for where the brothers were at that time in their life.

 

Dean chose to stay because he likes hunting. He embraced that his life was filled with things most others would never encounter. He enjoyed the feeling of being a hero, of making a difference to other people's lives. Sam didn't share this enjoyment! He saw the downfalls of hunting i.e. the danger, the constrictions, the isolation from other people and felt this made him a freak, and he wanted to live a more normal life. 

 

Personally, I have no issue with either choice. It doesn't make Dean weak that he chose to stay nor does it make Sam bad for choosing to leave. My complaints are primarily about what went down after the decision were made. IMO Dean (and his fans) need to own Dean's decision to stay. He wasn't forced to stay, he chose to stay. And I disapprove of Dean twisting Sam's legitimate decision and playing the victim card. Sam wanted to go to college. It was John who turned it in to an outright cut off and Dean who abided by John's decree. If Dean wants to whine about the Stanford related cut off then he should direct it towards John not Sam. 

 

47 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean's Prime Directive has been "look after your brother" since he was four. His life centered around that. 

Sam's was more along the line of "do what I say and why can't you be more like Dean?"  (Which alone probably made him want to run far, far away screaming.) Also, canonically, there were demons interacting with him encouraging him to be more independent.

Plus, they have their own personalities. 

As I said above, I think Dean's choice to stay was related to Dean's enjoyment of the hunting life and had nothing to do with the "protect Sam" directive. If he was acting on that wouldn't it have made more sense to leave with Sam? To get a job in town as a bar tender, mechanic or whatever career Dean wanted to work as. He would have then been near Sam and in a better position to protect him than just checking in every few months. 

 

To to be clear I'm not saying Dean should have went with Sam. I'm just pointing out that if his decision was all about protecting Sam that was the more logical course of action. Instead Dean chose to stay with John and live the hunting life he wanted to live, and rightly so since Dean's life shouldn't be centred around Sam's. 

[Aeryn13]

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Personally, I have no issue with either choice. It doesn't make Dean weak that he chose to stay nor does it make Sam bad for choosing to leave. My complaints are primarily about what went down after the decision were made. IMO Dean (and his fans) need to own Dean's decision to stay.

Personally, I have no problem with Dean`s decision to stay and I agree that he made it because of his reasons. I loathe the fanfic trope where Dean follows Sam to Stanford like some loyal dog - and of course gets to be a mechanic because that is the only career ever assigned to Dean in those stories, and not even a successful one, nope, the lowest of the low to showcase how Sam gets to be super-successful - and I also don`t think Dean`s life should revolve around Sam. 

I also don`t have a problem with Sam going to College, believe or not. I never held that against the character. 

Can I see why it was a sore point for Dean? Yes, emotions aren`t always logical.

That was actually a pretty good journey during Season 1, that those estranged brothers came together again and learned who they were as people. And yes, it was Sam who walked away from his life and into Dean`s. But that wasn`t Dean`s fault. That was the premise of the show and Azazel made it happen. I hate all those "Dean dragged Sam from his normal life" metas. He asked him to come for a weekend and Sam agreed. That Sam ultimately walked away from it to get revenge was HIS decision, following Azazel`s actions. That can`t be blamed on Dean. And yet Sam whined about that to Meg the demon, how Dean dragged him around. And then later the whining about lying to Jessica while Dean told his girlfriend the truth. Both decisions Sam has to own.  

So, it`s not like only Dean has illogical hurts, does he?

But IMO they have put the Stanford thing behind them pretty much. So many things are not adressed in the relationship but this is IMO not one of them. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

Replying in the Dean Winchester thread. 

[ILoveReading]

I never held going to college against Sam, and I don't think Dean was wrong to be hurt by it.  People are complicated. 

Emotions aren't black and white.  You can feel many different things at once.  We know that John was angry when Sam left, and scared but he was also proud of him, as we saw during Phantom Traveler.   I think Dean felt the same way.   He was hurt that Sam left, but also proud.  He told him that during Scarecrow.   When Dean told Sam this, it was after Sam walked away and Dean didn't chase after him. So, I think it counts.  Dean had no idea if Sam was coming back

When Dean turned 18, Sam would have only been 14.  I don't see Dean leaving a teen age Sam with John.  He knows they don't get along, and Sam had already ran away once.   I can see Dean being worried that without a buffer things would get worse. 

I don't think Sam was the sole reason Dean stayed, but I do think it was a big part of the equation, because it wasn't that Dean felt he was responsible for Sam, he literally was.  John made Sam Dean's responsibility.  If something happened to Sam, John held it against Dean.  It still sticks out how Jensen played that scene is Dark Side of the Moon, and his reaction to "When Dad came home."   So I can see it being a part of Dean's mindset that part of his that he didn't have a choice. 

We know there are times growing up Dean resented the responsibility.  Family is everything to Dean.  So I can see him being worried if he left something might happen.

When Sam left, I think Dean felt it was too late for him to take another path so he stayed with hunting.  Not denying, he likes it, and enjoys helping people, but we know that Dean had other dreams. 

He was pulled in a lot of directions.  He had a brother he was responsible for, a father he was worried would get himself killed and also a part of him that liked the hunt. 

I don't think that makes Dean weak mentally.  I think it makes him a person caught in an impossible situation.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

That was actually a pretty good journey during Season 1, that those estranged brothers came together again and learned who they were as people. And yes, it was Sam who walked away from his life and into Dean`s. But that wasn`t Dean`s fault. 

But IMO they have put the Stanford thing behind them pretty much. So many things are not adressed in the relationship but this is IMO not one of them. 

I agree with this.  I never thought Sam leaving Stanford was Deans fault.  Ultimately it was Sam's decision.  He had the choice at that point.  But I have to agree with others who have said once Sam was older and left for Stanford, Dean had the choice as well.  To stay in hunting or not that is..... regardless of the reasons he chose to stay.

[CluelessDrifter]

On 7/30/2017 at 0:39 PM, Wayward Son said:

Dean chose to stay because he likes hunting. He embraced that his life was filled with things most others would never encounter. He enjoyed the feeling of being a hero, of making a difference to other people's lives. Sam didn't share this enjoyment! He saw the downfalls of hunting i.e. the danger, the constrictions, the isolation from other people and felt this made him a freak, and he wanted to live a more normal life. 

 

As I said above, I think Dean's choice to stay was related to Dean's enjoyment of the hunting life and had nothing to do with the "protect Sam" directive. If he was acting on that wouldn't it have made more sense to leave with Sam? To get a job in town as a bar tender, mechanic or whatever career Dean wanted to work as. He would have then been near Sam and in a better position to protect him than just checking in every few months. 

I can see what you mean, but I don't think Dean stayed because he liked hunting so much as he liked hunting, because he decided to stay.  He had an out once when he was sent to that boys home.  He chose Sam.  It wasn't long after his stint at Sonny's that he was on that werewolf hunt that he tells Gordon about in Bloodlust, and it's during that hunt that he has an epiphany that allows him to accept that he's a hunter.  Prior to that, I'm sure he'd always thought he was going to be a hunter, but he'd never had anyone tell him that he could do something else, the way Sam had teachers and demons disguised as friends telling him to go his own way, and I'm sure Dean liked the weapons, which would be an intrigue for most kids, and more importantly saving people, but it's that moment on the werewolf hunt when he saw his place in the world, understood what it meant, and accepted it.

The first thing he ever wanted to be was a firefighter, so I am confident that whatever he chose to do, it would have involved saving people.  Later, he thought maybe being a mechanic would be something he might like, because he liked figuring out the puzzles of an engine to see how it worked and how to fix it - using his head and hands - something he can also do while being a hunter figuring out cases and finding solutions to them.  He also considered being a rock star, because why not?  Music is a big part of his life.  If he'd had a stable place to live where he didn't have to make due with making cheap food in a motel, maybe he could've learned his talent for cooking earlier and would've wanted to be a chef some day, but I still think he wouldn't have felt satisfied by being a mechanic, rock star, or chef as much as he would have doing something where he saved people, but he didn't have any of those as choices, so he latched onto the only option he thought he had, which was staying for Sam, his Dad, saving people, and hunting things - saving people being the only thing I'm sure that has consistently gotten him out of bed in the morning during the worst of times - if that weren't the case, then we wouldn't have a show, because with as depressed as Dean gets with good reason, all he'd do would be lay around in bed and drink all the time instead of going on hunts if he didn't feel he had a responsibility to save the future victims of whatever they have to hunt . . . expressing his inner turmoil and anger at the life he's been dealt by killing monsters most likely does help too, which is why his talk in wendigo is the foundation of Dean as an individual outside of being solely Sam's brother.  Saving people, hunting things, the family business, but also this:  

"I mean, I figure our family's so screwed to hell, maybe we can help some others. Makes things a little bit more bearable.  

I'll tell you what else helps.

Killing as many evil sons of bitches as I possibly can."

Having said all that, there's no way that an 18-year-old Dean would have left Sam with John on his own based on principle alone.  Maybe he could've taken Sam to go live somewhere else far away from the life, but he also had his Dad to consider, and make no mistake, despite how obvious it is that John wasn't the best of fathers, Dean loved John too.  There's no way he would've let John hunt without him, because Dean's identity was being the family caretaker, so he stayed and looked after both of them.  Sam left, didn't want to have anything to do with them anymore, was in the safer environment, and John was still hunting - Dean wouldn't have let his father continue hunting by himself for more than the odd cases they split up to do, because in his mind, as family caretaker (the only reason he thought his family needed/wanted him), it was his responsibility to be there to help protect his Dad.  

Sure, John could have hunted on his own and might've been okay.  We know he most likely did hunts on his own before Dean was of an age to go with him, but we also know that John partnered up with other hunters, like Bobby, Pastor Jim, and Caleb from time to time (and Jo's Dad at least once, as well as potentially with other hunters at the Roadhouse, but Dean didn't know about them at the time, so it doesn't fit here), and Dean saw it as his role to ensure John survived hunts, not entrust that role to anyone else, or to think John could hunt solo indefinitely without him if he didn't want John to die . . . and to save people from suffering the way his family had as I already said.

Edited July 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, sugarbabex23 said:

I honestly don't think Dean even sees Sam as an equal. I think he sees him as a child that shouldn't make decisions without his approval first. And I think this was very apparent when it came to the college situation. It just doesn't make any sense to me though. Sam was 18 years old when he left for college. Which means that Sam was an adult and was legally able to make his own decisions. Neither Dean or John were responsible for Sam anymore. The fact that both John and Dean resented Sam for going out into the world and making a life to better himself (something that is considered to be very normal in everyday families) is just very abnormal and bizarre. I simply don't approve of the way they (Dean and John) handled the Sam going to college situation at all. Did they not realize that Sam was not a child/baby anymore and that he was a capable adult at the age of 18 who had the right to choose what he wanted to do with his life without any judgement? I don't know, but Dean and John really bothered me in regards to the way that they treated Sam about going to college. 

I think Dean has a tendency to always see Sam as his little brother he needs to look out for, I wouldn't go as far as saying he doesn't see Sam as an equal or that he doesn't think Sam should make his own decisions, but I do think he tends to assume he knows what's best for Sam and acts without thinking that maybe Sam should get a say in it. I think it's more he just assumes Sam will be on the same page, though, and less thinking Sam is incapable. I think he's very proud of Sam, though and I think he knows Sam is capable, but it's hard to break out of those patterns established at a young age.

As usual, I think it goes both ways, though. Sam falls into the little brother role very easily too and lets Dean take the lead and make those decision without much protest. When he does decide to assert himself it tends to be out of frustration and it just makes everything worse rather than asserting himself before it's gone too far. For example, how Sam agrees to lay low until they figure their next move in Hunted, but has no intention of laying low and instead runs off in the night trying to prove he's a big boy. Which, I sympathize with Sam's want to find answers, but if you want someone to stop treating you like a child, you first have to stop acting like one. 

But, I don't think that's happening so much anymore on Dean's part, and after the end of S12, I'm hoping it won't be happening on Sam's part either. After the whole Gadreel debacle, Dean doesn't seem like he's trying to make decisions for Sam anymore. When Sam signed on with the Brits, they discussed it and Dean asked Sam if this is really what he wanted to do, and then agreed to work with them instead of just shutting it all down like he has in the past. And, I think Sam's whole talk about leadership was him realizing he had got into the mess with the Brits primarily because Dean told him to pick a side, so he did without thinking it through just to prove he could and then fell back into the pattern of lying and subterfuge instead of standing up like a man and owning his decision. At least he realized his mistake there quite quickly, though. So, I have hope they'll move forward on more even footing in the future. 

TBH, I thought they were on pretty even footing in S7 before Carver regressed them to petty little jerks. Hopefully they don't get regressed once again.

7 hours ago, sugarbabex23 said:

The fact that Dean and John lied to Sam about the hunting world or about supernatural creatures for so long and kept him in the dark. Sam was lied to for 8 years of his life. And the only reason why Sam even found out about the hunting life to begin with was because he was curious and found out for himself. Nobody told him anything. It was kind of insulting to Sam for John and Dean to not say anything about hunting or about the supernatural dangers out there, or about demons or about the fact that he was a "special child" that could potentially be corrupted and turn evil during his young adulthood because of a demon deal that his mother made (and ended up dying for). One could argue that John and Dean kept all those secrets and lied to Sam to preserve his innocence but to me, that only furthers my belief that John and Dean had a bad habit of infantilizing Sam. Sam was a smart, practical kid. I think he would have handled the truth just fine if they were upfront about everything instead of lying to him. It probably made Sam feel lonely and ostracized.

I agree this is partially what made Sam feel lonely and ostracized, but I also think that was something John did right for Sam in not telling him what was out there in the dark. Children shouldn't have the weight of all that knowledge on their shoulders and it definitely did Dean no favors knowing. I think Sam finding out on his own showed that Sam was ready to know the truth at that stage and I can't imagine John and Dean really thought they would be keeping Sam in the dark forever.

I do think John should've told Sam everything thing he knew when they were all working together at the end of S1, though. I understand why he didn't tell Sam he was possibly, maybe, perhaps, destined to go bad when he was younger because Sam didn't need that knowledge at that point and it would've probably just caused Sam to be more isolated and alone. But, I think once things started happening, John had a responsibility to lay it all out there for Sam so Sam could be prepared for what was coming. However, that's not Dean's fault. Dean didn't know anything about Sam's "destiny" until John died and even then John didn't give many details. I'm glad Dean didn't know when they were younger because it might have changed Dean's view of Sam, but I think John owed both Sam and Dean some full disclosure on that front. Knowledge is power, ya know?

5 hours ago, mertensia said:

As for Dean just being able to toss it all away and go to college? Not after John got done indoctrinating him. 

I don't know, after Who We Are, I kinda feel like it wasn't John who taught Dean to protect Sam as much as it was something Mary maybe instilled in him. It always seemed to me that while John enforced the idea, it was something Dean seemed have inside him already. Dean said himself that John didn't have to tell him, he just always knew it was his job. I used to think it was that moment Sam was put into his arms to carry out of the fire, but now I think it was Mary.

[Aeryn13]

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When Sam signed on with the Brits, they discussed it and Dean asked Sam if this is really what he wanted to do, and then agreed to work with them instead of just shutting it all down like he has in the past.

I would have prefered if Dean had stayed out of it. Equal footing isn`t ultimately doing what Sam wants in my eyes, if they discuss it first or not. And Sam at the end of Season 12 expected his leadership role to extend to Dean as in he expected Dean to come along as a follower in Sam`s attack squad. No thank you to more of that.

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would have prefered if Dean had stayed out of it. Equal footing isn`t ultimately doing what Sam wants in my eyes,

For me, equal footing is both of them making decisions for themselves. Sam chose to work with the Brits of his own free will and so did Dean in the end. I would've been just as fine with Dean staying out of it too, but I was fine with him choosing to give it a shot too.

If you ask me, Dean didn't really have a big objection to the Brits, but was against them mostly out of loyalty to Sam because he thought Sam was against them due to them torturing Sam. When that was shown to not be the case I think Dean was fine giving it a try and seeing if it could work. I don't think Dean really cared one way or another at first, it wasn't until he saw how they operated first hand that he really started to think it was going to all turn out bad. I actually thought it would've been rather nice if at that point Dean had bowed out while Sam stayed inside.

Anyway, for me it was an equal footing situation only because, once Sam came clean, they both made decisions of their own free will.  So, I'm fine with it. Sometimes they can agree to do the same thing and both still be making independent decisions. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

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I don't think Dean really cared one way or another at first, it wasn't until he saw how they operated first hand that he really started to think it was going to all turn out bad. I actually thought it would've been rather nice if at that point Dean had bowed out while Sam stayed inside.

That would have been good, too. However, I didn`t happen.

With the way leadership was adressed in the Season 12 Finale and especially the spoilers from Comic Con I`m very wary that from here on out Sam will do what Sam wants and Dean will do what Sam wants. I have no interest in watching that kind of "partnership" and seeing Dean reduced to such patheticness for the end of the show. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That would have been good, too. However, I didn`t happen.

With the way leadership was adressed in the Season 12 Finale and especially the spoilers from Comic Con I`m very wary that from here on out Sam will do what Sam wants and Dean will do what Sam wants. I have no interest in watching that kind of "partnership" and seeing Dean reduced to such patheticness for the end of the show. 

I'm not worried about that because I can't think of an example where that actually happened, but am worried they'll feel the need to up the dramatic tension and regress them back to petty little jerks. By that I mean, they have a disagreement and Sam huffs off doing it his way while Dean runs around behind Sam trying to stop him. Or, Dean just says it's his way or the highway so Sam sulks for most of the season. I'd like them to just be adults and realize they don't have to always do it the same way or agree on everything to be partners.

[ahrtee]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, after Who We Are, I kinda feel like it wasn't John who taught Dean to protect Sam as much as it was something Mary maybe instilled in him. It always seemed to me that while John enforced the idea, it was something Dean seemed have inside him already. Dean said himself that John didn't have to tell him, he just always knew it was his job. I used to think it was that moment Sam was put into his arms to carry out of the fire, but now I think it was Mary.

Hmmm...I hadn't really thought about that.

I'm sure Mary gave the typical mother indoctrination about a new sibling (to reassure the older one that they're not being replaced) of pointing out how small and fragile the new baby was, and the Big Brother role of loving and protecting and teaching him about the important things in life like baseball (and pie!).  But Mary was a hunter and knew how dangerous the world was and was probably already instilling the sense (subliminally at least) that Dean needed to be extra watchful and protective, things that John reinforced more strongly and directly later.  

Add to that the fact that it was also probably what Dean remembered most about his Mommy, that he'd seen the terrible danger the family had already been placed in, and that John was lost in grief and unable to protect them at first, and it became the most important thing to him, the main thing that connected him to Mary.  And as, over the years, John started the training specifically because of the danger and the need to protect Sam above everything else, Dean pretty much had no hope of overcoming that early conditioning.  It becomes an instinctive/gut reaction, and you have to fight through it to get to "rational thought".  I think Dean's been working on it for years since Sam first started insisting that he was old enough to take care of himself, and can usually get there, but his automatic response to any danger to Sam even now would be "protect."  It has nothing to do with how he perceives Sam (much less "infantalizing" him), just an ingrained reaction to the trigger of "danger to Sam."  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

By that I mean, they have a disagreement and Sam huffs off doing it his way while Dean runs around behind Sam trying to stop him. Or, Dean just says it's his way or the highway so Sam sulks for most of the season. I'd like them to just be adults and realize they don't have to always do it the same way or agree on everything to be partners.

If that happens, IMO Sam will ultimately win out and Dean will have to apologize. Because I agree with catrox reading of the penultimate episode of Season 12, when the camera showed baby!Sam and then it cut to Sam leading the charge, it was meant to showcase how Sam had grown up and taken his rightful place as General Sam Winchester now. 

So Dean will either have to be obedient right away or will be made to learn his place. Some more.

I felt embarassed watching the character for the second half of Season 12. I don`t care to see even one more episode of it. I`d rather have evil than cringeworthy.  

[shang yiet]

Quite keen to see Sam step up as leader of Team Free Will. I didn't see any complaints when Dean was the leader.

[Aeryn13]

Sam always got his way plenty. Despite his moaning to the contrary.

However, I`m not keen in any way to see a guy taking leadership who has a problem with hubris, smugness and a superiority complex from the start. Because I know THIS won`t be a partnership, this will be "Sam`s world, you just do what he say and worship him or else". With lots of acting choices that drive me up walls.  I already found the interviews to be unbearable, how much worse it is gonna be in the show. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Quite keen to see Sam step up as leader of Team Free Will. I didn't see any complaints when Dean was the leader.

Yep! We have had twelve seasons of always right leader Dean! Bring on the reign of Sammy I say! 

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...I hadn't really thought about that.

I'm sure Mary gave the typical mother indoctrination about a new sibling (to reassure the older one that they're not being replaced) of pointing out how small and fragile the new baby was, and the Big Brother role of loving and protecting and teaching him about the important things in life like baseball (and pie!).  But Mary was a hunter and knew how dangerous the world was and was probably already instilling the sense (subliminally at least) that Dean needed to be extra watchful and protective, things that John reinforced more strongly and directly later.  

Add to that the fact that it was also probably what Dean remembered most about his Mommy, that he'd seen the terrible danger the family had already been placed in, and that John was lost in grief and unable to protect them at first, and it became the most important thing to him, the main thing that connected him to Mary.  And as, over the years, John started the training specifically because of the danger and the need to protect Sam above everything else, Dean pretty much had no hope of overcoming that early conditioning.  It becomes an instinctive/gut reaction, and you have to fight through it to get to "rational thought".  I think Dean's been working on it for years since Sam first started insisting that he was old enough to take care of himself, and can usually get there, but his automatic response to any danger to Sam even now would be "protect."  It has nothing to do with how he perceives Sam (much less "infantalizing" him), just an ingrained reaction to the trigger of "danger to Sam."  

I don't mean that Mary literally told Dean to protect Sam, but I think she taught him his protect and serve mentality. It was that moment in Who We Are where Mary says she'll protect wee Dean and not let anything happen to him. I think it's something that seeped into his subconscious and he hung onto after she died as a way to honor her. So, I think Mary is the one who ingrained the idea in Dean and John just reinforced the idea--and somewhat twisted it.

I think that's also why Dean was saying he both loved and hated her. She taught him this belief he built his whole life on, but it was also a lie because she knew she'd made that deal with Yellow Eyes and hadn't done anything to protect them from that. So, he hated her for teaching him a lie, but he loved her for teaching him something that he was also very proud of. 

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If that happens, IMO Sam will ultimately win out and Dean will have to apologize. Because I agree with catrox reading of the penultimate episode of Season 12, when the camera showed baby!Sam and then it cut to Sam leading the charge, it was meant to showcase how Sam had grown up and taken his rightful place as General Sam Winchester now. 

See, I think it was meant to show that Sam had now grown up and was owning his decisions instead of hiding behind Dean and letting him fix it for him this time. In the past, generally, when Sam got himself into trouble, he looked to Dean to get him out of it, but this time, Sam took on the responsibility himself which means it's also his responsibility to lead the charge to fix it. I keep thinking back to Sam telling Claire if she wanted them to stop treating her like a child, she needed to stop acting like one. To me, that's what the end of S12 was for Sam. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

47 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Quite keen to see Sam step up as leader of Team Free Will. I didn't see any complaints when Dean was the leader.

Going all the way back to season 1 and every season that follows, Sam has always gotten his way with Dean, with few notable exceptions, and when those happen, Sam harps on it until Dean gives into what he wants, just harps on it, or takes off and does whatever he wants.  To me, it's often been like that flashback with Sam and the Lucky Charms when they were kids.  Sam wants something.  Dean says no, and then ultimately gives into him, because he puts Sam's wants above his own and spoils him - IMO.

Edited July 30, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't mean that Mary literally told Dean to protect Sam, but I think she taught him his protect and serve mentality.

That's why I said she was instilling the "protect Sam from danger" subliminally.  But I think she also probably gave the typical mother speech about "babies are fragile and you have to be careful with them and protect them."  It's just that most mothers aren't thinking of monsters when they say that.

I think Dean took the need to protect Sam from her and combined it with his new knowledge of supernatural danger from John and became uberprotective.  (Mary would have known about the impending Azazel threat--her 10 years being up--and would probably have been uberprotective of Sam herself so I can see young Dean picking up on that.)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yep! We have had twelve seasons of always right leader Dean! Bring on the reign of Sammy I say! 

Why not have a scene in where Dean has to lick the floor like Lucifer/Crowley to really bring it home? Sam would feel really powerful and leader-y then. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why not have a scene in where Dean has to lick the floor like Lucifer/Crowley to really bring it home? Sam would feel really powerful and leader-y then. 

Oh, so the last twelve seasons where Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will has involved Sam and Cas licking the floor? Good to know! I must have missed those scenes. I'll have to watch out for them the next time I'm rewatching the show. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Oh, so the last twelve seasons where Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will has involved Sam and Cas licking the floor? Good to know! I must have missed those scenes. I'll have to watch out for them the next time I'm rewatching the show. 

No, there weren`t those scenes. But when Sam is the leader, this is more or less the dynamic he will want and feel he is owed. And I`m sure the writers will give it to him.

I don`t consider Sam leadership material, if you put him in a position of power or not. Not unless he get his superiority complex under control.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I was always struck by the fact that at Sam's apartment at Palo Alto, there was no evidence of any pictures of Dean. He had the picture of Mary and John on his dresser which the camera  kept in frame with Jessica and zoomed in on, but no indication of a picture of Dean, not even one of them as little boys.  I realize it's the pilot but that is one of the strongest pilots ever made and it was directed by David Nutter, so IMO that shot was not a mistake and was done to imply that Dean and Sam have a huge rift. Jessica clearly never saw a picture of Dean since she didn't recognize him but surmised it was Dean. 

Since it's never been shown or even implied that Dean did anything so egregious and harmful to Sam that Sam would have reason to excise him out of his life when John was the one that told Sam to never come back, not Dean, I'm of the opinion that it was Sam's choice to cut off that relationship and Dean did adhered to those terms until John disappeared. 

That's just my interpretation. YMMV.

ETA:

I always wondered where Sam got that picture if the house burned down and John wasn't shown to have been carrying any pictures on him when he fled the house. Did John go back inside and scavenge photos after they put the fire out?

I'm thinking John had the picture of him and Mary, the picture of him with the boys and I think a picture of the 4 of them. I wonder why Sam only had that picture. Was it the only picture he took when he left?

Inquiring minds.

Edited July 30, 2017 by catrox14

[sugarbabex23]

I do think that Dean has gotten better in treating Sam like an adult in the last season. So there seems to be some progress in their relationship. I guess I just find Sam and Dean's relationship very strange in terms of their older sibling/younger sibling dynamic because I grew up with a completely different dynamic with my elder sister. My older sister never treated me the way that Dean treats Sam. My sister saw me as an equal and never treated me as a younger sister. I was just her sister. But with Dean and Sam, there's that set older brother/little brother dynamic there that I was never a huge fan of. Maybe it's just my personal experience but I hate when older siblings (normally the oldest sibling, let's be honest!) overdo it and play "second parent" to younger siblings. An older sibling is not a parent, they are just a sibling who happens to be older than a younger sibling. I feel that Dean and Sam's relationship came/comes off as way too parent-child for my liking (especially in the older seasons) and it can turn me off of wanting to support their relationship. Fortunately, since last season, Sam and Dean seem to have finally broken out of those set roles which,let's be honest, was a major part of the contention in their relationship. 

And last season and according to spoilers for Season 13, Sam will continue to take on a more independent, leader type role including playing the role of big brother to Jack. I personally enjoy and prefer seeing Sam being a big brother or playing the big brother role over Sam being a little brother. I think Sam actually prefers being in the big brother role (to someone younger than him like Kevin, Adam, and now Jack) over being the little brother to Dean all the time.

Edited July 30, 2017 by sugarbabex23

[companionenvy]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

No, there weren`t those scenes. But when Sam is the leader, this is more or less the dynamic he will want and feel he is owed. And I`m sure the writers will give it to him.

I don`t consider Sam leadership material, if you put him in a position of power or not. Not unless he get his superiority complex under control.

Respectfully, I have no idea where you are getting this. Sam has a prissy side that can sometimes manifest itself in pulling an "ew, gross, Dean" reaction when Dean makes a sex joke or eats something really unhealthy. That's, IMO, well within the realm of ordinary sibling behavior, and is a far cry from a global feeling of superiority. Heck, Sam has canonically said "I'm the least of you" in referring to himself, Dean and Cas. While I don't think he's held that attitude consistently over twelve seasons, Sam has over the years dealt with feelings of self-loathing, the opposite of superiority, on a number of occasions.

Sam and Dean sometimes disagree. I think both of them can be at times too stubborn in advancing their position. If Dean more often caves to Sam (which I don't think is necessarily true), that's more on him than on Sam - he's a big boy, and can make his own choices. There have been very few cases in which Sam has made agreeing with him a precondition for continuing to hunt together; about the only one I can think of right now is the Benny situation. 

I'm not sure what would have happened if Dean had held firm about not working with the BMOL. Neither are you, because it didn't happen. But if Dean had refused to work with the BMOL, and Sam had continued doing so, it wouldn't have been any more Sam's fault that they (maybe) couldn't have worked together anymore than Dean's. It would have been an instance of two adult men making different, mutually exclusive decisions. And that's OK. Again, the fact that Dean caved first doesn't mean Sam was being any more high-handed in his expectations than Dean was. In fact, in this case, I think the fact that Dean caved had less to do with "must preserve my relationship with Sam at all costs" and more to do with a logical assessment of the situation telling him that given that a) they frequently worked with questionable allies and b) all of the MOL tips so far had turned out to be legit, and had led to saving lives, a cautious partnership might indeed be the best approach. But in either case, Sam was hardly demanding obedience or expecting tribute.

I just see no evidence that Sam has the kind of superiority complex that would demand servile obedience from those around him. Thinking you are right and acting accordingly isn't in itself a problem - it is what I would hope most of us do most of the time, when we have the power to do so. By the same token, disagreement isn't a betrayal.

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was always struck by the fact that at Sam's apartment at Palo Alto, there was no evidence of any pictures of Dean. He had the picture of Mary and John on his dresser which the camera  kept in frame with Jessica and zoomed in on, but no indication of a picture of Dean, not even one of them as little boys.  I realize it's the pilot but that is one of the strongest pilots ever made and it was directed by David Nutter, so IMO that shot was not a mistake and was done to imply that Dean and Sam have a huge rift. Jessica clearly never saw a picture of Dean since she didn't recognize him but surmised it was Dean. 

Since it's never been shown or even implied that Dean did anything so egregious and harmful to Sam that Sam would have reason to excise him out of his life when John was the one that told Sam to never come back, not Dean, I'm of the opinion that it was Sam's choice to cut off that relationship and Dean did adhered to those terms until John disappeared. 

That's just my interpretation. YMMV.

Sam didn't act like there was a huge rift when Dean broke into his house in the middle of the night.  Not to mention, to me it doesn't make sense that Sam would keep a photo of John and display it in a way that says to me that his intention wasn't to cut John out of his life...... then to hold that attitude towards Dean about wanting to cut him out of his life.  Sam always had a closer relationship with Dean than John.  

 

Why would he want to cut Dean out of his life, but not John?  After all.... John was the one telling him to stay gone if he went to college.  It is also John who Sam shows his anger towards when they finally meet up again.  To me, it wouldn't make any sense for Sam to want to cut Dean out of his life bur not John.  

[CluelessDrifter]

On 7/30/2017 at 5:53 PM, companionenvy said:

Respectfully, I have no idea where you are getting this. Sam has a prissy side that can sometimes manifest itself in pulling an "ew, gross, Dean" reaction when Dean makes a sex joke or eats something really unhealthy. That's, IMO, well within the realm of ordinary sibling behavior, and is a far cry from a global feeling of superiority. Heck, Sam has canonically said "I'm the least of you" in referring to himself, Dean and Cas. While I don't think he's held that attitude consistently over twelve seasons, Sam has over the years dealt with feelings of self-loathing, the opposite of superiority, on a number of occasions.

Sam and Dean sometimes disagree. I think both of them can be at times too stubborn in advancing their position. If Dean more often caves to Sam (which I don't think is necessarily true), that's more on him than on Sam - he's a big boy, and can make his own choices. There have been very few cases in which Sam has made agreeing with him a precondition for continuing to hunt together; about the only one I can think of right now is the Benny situation. 

I'm not sure what would have happened if Dean had held firm about not working with the BMOL. Neither are you, because it didn't happen. But if Dean had refused to work with the BMOL, and Sam had continued doing so, it wouldn't have been any more Sam's fault that they (maybe) couldn't have worked together anymore than Dean's. It would have been an instance of two adult men making different, mutually exclusive decisions. And that's OK. Again, the fact that Dean caved first doesn't mean Sam was being any more high-handed in his expectations than Dean was. In fact, in this case, I think the fact that Dean caved had less to do with "must preserve my relationship with Sam at all costs" and more to do with a logical assessment of the situation telling him that given that a) they frequently worked with questionable allies and b) all of the MOL tips so far had turned out to be legit, and had led to saving lives, a cautious partnership might indeed be the best approach. But in either case, Sam was hardly demanding obedience or expecting tribute.

I just see no evidence that Sam has the kind of superiority complex that would demand servile obedience from those around him. Thinking you are right and acting accordingly isn't in itself a problem - it is what I would hope most of us do most of the time, when we have the power to do so. By the same token, disagreement isn't a betrayal.

In any relationship with more than one person (yes that means two or more), there is always going to be one who makes the final decision on things for the collective group, but that doesn't mean that nobody else in the group has a say and can't sway their opinion.  I don't know that it's a superiority complex that Sam has, so much as how Sam behaves when he doesn't get his way instead of going with the final decision that's been made, but I can see how the writing in general can sometimes make it appear that the 'ew, gross,' moments are somewhat condescending, so they can be played for laughs.  Dean is the butt of the joke.  Sam points it out . . . except for in Season 11 when Sam was just as poorly mannered as Dean when they were eating at Jody's.  That was a little weird to me and seemed like it was attempting to say, oh look at how the men are pigs compared to the women, but I digress.  

Anyway, they are both stubborn, and the hiding things from one another doesn't help.  I've always thought that it's one of the things Sam hates most - to be kept out of the loop on things - because of how John was when they were growing up, but I also think he's just as bad if not worse than Dean is about it.  What he did with the BMoL was a highly Machiavellian play to get what he wanted (and I don't mean that as a compliment even though it was brilliant).  As you said, Dean had already been working for the BMoL for weeks without knowing about it.  How could he then turn around and give any credible arguments for why they shouldn't work with them after that?  There'd been no torture of them in that time.  Nothing about how they'd hunted had changed, except that they were doing more cases than normal.  They hadn't had any dubious hunts.  All the what ifs go out the window as an argument when you've unknowingly been doing something you wouldn't have wanted to do and the what ifs never happened.  Of course you're forced to admit that it hadn't been what you'd thought it'd be, and maybe it's not so bad; thereby being manipulated into continuing to do it, because to not do it would no longer make sense given the circumstances, so long as you add a final caveat of if any of the 'what ifs' happen, then you're out.  Obviously, if you're giving that stipulation to the agreement, you should follow through on it though, and there were too many times when neither Sam or Dean did so when they should have, which really only served to make them both look bad for the sake of story.

Edited August 1, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Heck, Sam has canonically said "I'm the least of you" in referring to himself, Dean and Cas. 

Which I didn`t find believable at all considering he still felt he was poweful enough to control an archangel. Give me a break with the faux humbleness there. That whole spiel on how he would only do it, i,e, the Lucifer thing, if everyone agreed was a ridiculous balloon of hot air. He was in a position of power because he was the special, important one. Pretending the others have a say or a vote was just a condescending pat on the head so they could make themselves feel better about saying yes. And if they had said no, he would have gone along and did it anyway.      

Every variation of "I`m smarter, stronger, better" that has come from Sam over the show, be it under the influence of something or not, those I find believable because they are backed up by the way he acts. The faux-humbleness moments on the other hand stick out like sore thumbs to me. They usually serve a purpose and disappear as soon as the purpose has been reached. 

[companionenvy]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He was in a position of power because he was the special, important one. Pretending the others have a say or a vote was just a condescending pat on the head so they could make themselves feel better about saying yes. And if they had said no, he would have gone along and did it anyway.      

Every variation of "I`m smarter, stronger, better" that has come from Sam over the show, be it under the influence of something or not, those I find believable because they are backed up by the way he acts. The faux-humbleness moments on the other hand stick out like sore thumbs to me. They usually serve a purpose and disappear as soon as the purpose has been reached. 

It isn't hubris if it is true. Sam WAS the important, special one in this context, and your contention that Sam would have gone and done it anyway is, like some of the other hypotheticals that have been floated in this thread, is just speculation. Maybe he would have. Maybe not.

Even in season 4, Sam wasn't totally delusional to think he had more power than Dean. He did have more power than Dean, just like powered-up Cas has more power than Dean. He wound up being manipulated into grossly misusing that power -- and arguably, he should never have used it at all in the first place -- but that doesn't mean he was wrong that he was, at that time, more powerful than Dean.

I find both Sam's moments of hubris and his moments of humility convincing. YMMV. But as  the show's creators quite obviously don't find Sam a profoundly unlikable, manipulative, self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing figure, I think it is implausible to  pretty much always take the most extreme negative reading of Sam'e behavior possible.  

[sugarbabex23]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It isn't hubris if it is true. Sam WAS the important, special one in this context, and your contention that Sam would have gone and done it anyway is, like some of the other hypotheticals that have been floated in this thread, is just speculation. Maybe he would have. Maybe not.

Even in season 4, Sam wasn't totally delusional to think he had more power than Dean. He did have more power than Dean, just like powered-up Cas has more power than Dean. He wound up being manipulated into grossly misusing that power -- and arguably, he should never have used it at all in the first place -- but that doesn't mean he was wrong that he was, at that time, more powerful than Dean.

I find both Sam's moments of hubris and his moments of humility convincing. YMMV. But as  the show's creators quite obviously don't find Sam a profoundly unlikable, manipulative, self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing figure, I think it is implausible to  pretty much always take the most extreme negative reading of Sam'e behavior possible.  

Agreed completely with your post. Sam isn't the devil that some people make him out to be just like Dean isn't the saint that some people make him out to be. Both Sam and Dean have made horrible mistakes in the past. It makes no sense to demonize one brother for making mistakes while putting the other on a pedestal for making mistakes. Some people just take the Dean worship a little too far and make it seem like he's so perfect when he isn't. It's almost like they are projecting onto Dean. 

 

ETA: I also think Sam is the strongest character in the show. He's been through so much yet he's still standing. He's been beaten down by people he loves as well as his enemies and he still keeps on going. That's incredible and I admire Sam for his persistence. Because I don't even think I would be in one piece if I went through even the slightest of what Sam has gone through. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by sugarbabex23

[CluelessDrifter]

18 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Even in season 4, Sam wasn't totally delusional to think he had more power than Dean. He did have more power than Dean, just like powered-up Cas has more power than Dean. He wound up being manipulated into grossly misusing that power -- and arguably, he should never have used it at all in the first place -- but that doesn't mean he was wrong that he was, at that time, more powerful than Dean.

He was physically more powerful than Dean, but not mentally so because of his addiction, and even his addiction made him physically weak, because he needed demon blood or went into withdrawal, and Dean had just gotten out of Hell, which is saying something about where Sam was in terms of mental strength in season 4.

Edited July 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

Quote

and your contention that Sam would have gone and done it anyway is, like some of the other hypotheticals that have been floated in this thread, is just speculation. Maybe he would have. Maybe not.

He pretty much did it when Lucifer revealed their plan - that was banking on the element of surprise - had gone to shit and he knew everything. Sam decided right then and there to still go ahead. That tells me he would have done it before as well.

Quote

Even in season 4, Sam wasn't totally delusional to think he had more power than Dean. He did have more power than Dean, just like powered-up Cas has more power than Dean. He wound up being manipulated into grossly misusing that power -- and arguably, he should never have used it at all in the first place -- but that doesn't mean he was wrong that he was, at that time, more powerful than Dean.

That doesn`t mean he didn`t come across like a smug, arrogant dick to me who I wanted to see tumble of that highorse. 

Quote

But as  the show's creators quite obviously don't find Sam a profoundly unlikable, manipulative, self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing figure, I think it is implausible to  pretty much always take the most extreme negative reading of Sam'e behavior possible.  

I`m quite aware that they see him as a figure of wonder and worship who actually is stronger, smarter and better than everyone else and that I`m suposed to stan him to kingdom come. They push that so hard that it pretty much guarantees I will do anything but.   

It`s the job of the writers and actors to convince me of a character being a certain way. To convince me of them being genuine when they deliver certain dialogue. If they can`t do that, I don`t have to take it at face value.

Quote

ETA: I also think Sam is the strongest character in the show. 

You believe Sam is the strongest and bestest and he should be raised up. Why can`t I believe the same of Dean? Why is it that that is taking worship too far and projecting onto him? 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

I'd disagree Dean joined the Brits on equal footing.  He was manipulated.  Sam made sure to put him in a position where it was almost impossible for him to say no.  To me equal footing would have been Sam coming to Dean the  minute he decided to join, and saying "Hey, Dean I want to work with these guys for reasons X,Y,Z"  He would have listened to Dean when Dean's objected and then they might have found common ground.  

Sam didn't do that.  He said "give me time" and proceeded to lie and go behind Dean's back and make Dean work for them without their knowledge.  That's not equal.  Imagine if Dean did that to Sam?  He'd be accused of once again disrespecting Sam's agency, and once again manipulating Sam.  

    When Dean disagrees with him, Sam will often play the victim card to make Dean acquiescence.

Spoiler

From the sounds of it, this will happen in the first 10 minutes of the opening episode.  We know Sam will get his way once again because after all if Dean hates Jack he must hate Sam.  Like there is no possible reason other than that for Dean to dislike Jack

   Looking back on the series I can't think of many times Sam didn't do exactly what he wanted regardless of what Dean said or thought.   So while Dean may be bossy and try to control the situation, most times he's doesn't succeed.  A good example is Bloody Mary.  Sam wants to play bait.  Dean says, No, I don't like it.  Sam plays bait.  The majority of the show is like that.

The situation with Ben and Amelia. Dean told Sam, in or out but make a choice.  Sam told Dean to dump Benny or he'd dump him. So its not like Sam doesn't attempt to control Dean. 

I've always seen Sam in control of the relationship.  It doesn't sound like anything is changing in season 13. 

As in terms of hunting, Dean respects Sam as hunting partner.  That goes all the way back The Benders.  When asked to choose between Sam and Kathleen.  He choose Sam because he knew that Sam had a much better chance at staying alive.  If Dean wanted to protect Sam so badly why take him on dangerous hunts?

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

Some people just take the Dean worship a little too far and make it seem like he's so perfect when he isn't. It's almost like they are projecting onto Dean. 

This is true of both sides, not just the "Dean worshipers", as evidenced by the activity in this thread.  Sam has just as many fans who will defend him to the end, at the expense of Dean.  

[sugarbabex23]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He pretty much did it when Lucifer revealed their plan - that was banking on the element of surprise - had gone to shit and he knew everything. Sam decided right then and there to still go ahead. That tells me he would have done it before as well.

That doesn`t mean he didn`t come across like a smug, arrogant dick to me who I wanted to see tumble of that highorse. 

I`m quite aware that they see him as a figure of wonder and worship who actually is stronger, smarter and better than everyone else and that I`m suposed to stan him to kingdom come. They push that so hard that it pretty much guarantees I will do anything but.   

It`s the job of the writers and actors to convince me of a character being a certain way. To convince me of them being genuine when they deliver certain dialogue. If they can`t do that, I don`t have to take it at face value.

You believe Sam is the strongest and bestest and he should be raised up. Why can`t I believe the same of Dean? Why is it that that is taking worship too far and projecting onto him? 

Because some Dean fans think that Dean has never made any mistakes and that he's some kind of saint that should constantly be worshipped and when people don't bow to his feet or follow his orders, they are abandoning him or betraying him. It seems that they prefer fanon Dean over canon Dean. Even when Dean makes mistakes or hurts other people, like Sam and Cas for example, some people who prefer Dean have a tendency to overlook his flaws and his mistakes. They treat him like he's the king of the castle and it's always got to be his way or the highway.  Dean has big brother or older sibling complex. He always has to be the best at everything: he's got to be the best leader, the best brother, the best friend, the best hunter, the best everything. Canon has shown us that Sam is far from perfect, that he's a flawed person and it's acknowledged by both the fans and the show. Dean's flaws and mistakes are not nearly as acknowledged by both the audience and on the show. That's the issues I have with Dean's character both amongst the audience and on the show. There is a strong Dean bias and I have an issue with that. The show and the fans go out of their way to unfairly attack and demonize Sam for making mistakes and having character defects while praising Dean for having character flaws or making excuses for him when he screws up. That's the issue I have. It's the double standards that some fans who have a preference for Dean have. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by sugarbabex23

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This is true of both sides, not just the "Dean worshipers", as evidenced by the activity in this thread.  Sam has just as many fans who will defend him to the end, at the expense of Dean.  

So, so true!!

[sugarbabex23]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd disagree Dean joined the Brits on equal footing.  He was manipulated.  Sam made sure to put him in a position where it was almost impossible for him to say no.  To me equal footing would have been Sam coming to Dean the  minute he decided to join, and saying "Hey, Dean I want to work with these guys for reasons X,Y,Z"  He would have listened to Dean when Dean's objected and then they might have found common ground.  

Sam didn't do that.  He said "give me time" and proceeded to lie and go behind Dean's back and make Dean work for them without their knowledge.  That's not equal.  Imagine if Dean did that to Sam?  He'd be accused of once again disrespecting Sam's agency, and once again manipulating Sam.  

    When Dean disagrees with him, Sam will often play the victim card to make Dean acquiescence.

  Reveal hidden contents

From the sounds of it, this will happen in the first 10 minutes of the opening episode.  We know Sam will get his way once again because after all if Dean hates Jack he must hate Sam.  Like there is no possible reason other than that for Dean to dislike Jack

   Looking back on the series I can't think of many times Sam didn't do exactly what he wanted regardless of what Dean said or thought.   So while Dean may be bossy and try to control the situation, most times he's doesn't succeed.  A good example is Bloody Mary.  Sam wants to play bait.  Dean says, No, I don't like it.  Sam plays bait.  The majority of the show is like that.

The situation with Ben and Amelia. Dean told Sam, in or out but make a choice.  Sam told Dean to dump Benny or he'd dump him. So its not like Sam doesn't attempt to control Dean. 

I've always seen Sam in control of the relationship.  It doesn't sound like anything is changing in season 13. 

As in terms of hunting, Dean respects Sam as hunting partner.  That goes all the way back The Benders.  When asked to choose between Sam and Kathleen.  He choose Sam because he knew that Sam had a much better chance at staying alive.  If Dean wanted to protect Sam so badly why take him on dangerous hunts?

I respectfully disagree. I don't think Dean always respects Sam. I think there are times when in fact Dean treats Sam like dirt and talks down to him. He takes his older sibling/brother complex a little too far when it comes to Sam and there are times when I just don't like the way that Dean talks to Sam or treats him. There have even been some cases during the past seasons where I'm like, I want Sam to get away from Dean because the way Dean treats Sam at times is borderline abusive and unhealthy. Even my older sister, who also watches the show has commented about Dean's treatment and behaviour towards Sam and how she sees it as being borderline controlling and abusive. And I'm not the only one who has said that Dean treats Sam rather poorly at times. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Canon has shown us that Sam is far from perfect, that he's a flawed person and it's acknowledged by both the fans and the show. Dean's flaws and mistakes are not nearly as acknowledged by both the audience and on the show. That's the issues I have with Dean's character both amongst the audience and on the show. There is a strong Dean bias and I have an issue with that. The show and the fans go out of their way to unfairly attack and demonize Sam for making mistakes and having character defects while praising Dean for having character flaws or making excuses for him when he screws up. That's the issue I have. It's the double standards that some fans who have a preference for Dean have. 

And I have encountered the exact opposite as well. 

I don`t believe Dean is flawless or has never made any mistakes. That would be a ridiculous assessment after watching the show. And the show beats him down quite a lot for things both his fault and especially not his fault. That makes me resentful. Especially when it is done propping Sam. 

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There have even been some cases during the past seasons where I'm like, I want Sam to get away from Dean because the way Dean treats Sam at times is borderline abusive and unhealthy. Even my older sister, who also watches the show has commented about Dean's treatment and behaviour towards Sam and how she sees it as being borderline controlling and abusive. And I'm not the only one who has said that Dean treats Sam rather poorly at times. 

Again, I have had completely opposite reactions where I wanted Dean to get far away from Sam. And I also have anectodal evidence of people, sharing my feelings. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, sugarbabex23 said:

I respectfully disagree. I don't think Dean always respects Sam. I think there are times when in fact Dean treats Sam like dirt and talks down to him. He takes his older sibling/brother complex a little too far when it comes to Sam and there are times when I just don't like the way that Dean talks to Sam or treats him. There have even been some cases during the past seasons where I'm like, I want Sam to get away from Dean because the way Dean treats Sam at times is borderline abusive and unhealthy. Even my older sister, who also watches the show has commented about Dean's treatment and behaviour towards Sam and how she sees it as being borderline controlling and abusive. And I'm not the only one who has said that Dean treats Sam rather poorly at times. 

I think this applies to both brothers at times.  

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think this applies to both brothers at times.  

Most definitely. Sam isn't defenseless & he has shown to be more than capable of being domineering. Dean isn't some evil overlord holding Sam against his will.

[Wayward Son]

31 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

Because some Dean fans think that Dean has never made any mistakes and that he's some kind of saint that should constantly be worshipped and when people don't bow to his feet or follow his orders, they are abandoning him or betraying him. It seems that they prefer fanon Dean over canon Dean. . 

This is my experience also! Even in this thread I've read posts where Sam is described as having an ego trip equal to Lucifer, needing a submissive bitch to appease him and not one complaint was made. I make a post that is "filled with disdain" towards Dean and suddenly complaints about how people are biased and there should be downvotes begin. It's hard to see such complaints as genuine,  rather than an attempt to censor anti-Dean posts, when my post is quoted while posts containing the content I mention above in regards to Sam go uncommented on. 

 

My general experience is Sam and Castiel fans will admit when they are wrong! For instance, while I get where he is coming from Sam's actions in late season 4 were completely wrong and Cas breaking Sam's wall crossed a major line. I find Dean fans are not quite so willing to make such concessions such as defending the atrocity of allowing the Gadreel possession. 

 

ETA: I don't want to ruin the thread / dampen the mood for anyone, so if anyone would like to discuss what I've mentioned in the first paragraph ever please do so by personal message.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[sugarbabex23]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This is my experience also! Even in this thread I've read posts where Sam is described as having an ego trip equal to Lucifer, needing a submissive bitch to appease him and not one complaint was made. I make a post that is "filled with disdain" towards Dean and suddenly complaints about how people are biased and there should be downvotes begin. It's hard to see such complaints as genuine,  rather than an attempt to censor anti-Dean posts, when my post is quoted while posts containing the content I mention above in regards to Sam go uncommented on. 

 

My general experience is Sam and Castiel fans will admit when they are wrong! For instance, while I get where he is coming from Sam's actions in late season 4 were completely wrong and Cas breaking Sam's wall crossed a major line. I find Dean fans are not quite so willing to make such concessions such as defending the atrocity of allowing the Gadreel possession. 

OMG, Season 9 was terrible. Dean was so abusive towards Sam with the whole Gadreel possession. I actually hated Dean during that season because of the way he treated Sam, lied to him, gaslighted him and made it seem like he was going crazy when instead, he could have told Sam the truth about the possession in the beginning. Dean definitely abuses his power when it comes to Sam and he most definitely did in Season 9. That's why when Sam said that speech in The Purge, I didn't feel that sorry for Dean because as harsh and hurtful as it was, Sam was also telling the truth. 

[CluelessDrifter]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My general experience is Sam and Castiel fans will admit when they are wrong! For instance, while I get where he is coming from Sam's actions in late season 4 were completely wrong and Cas breaking Sam's wall crossed a major line. I find Dean fans are not quite so willing to make such concessions such as defending the atrocity of allowing the Gadreel possession. 

I don't think the possession itself was the problem.  It was Dean not telling Sam about it as soon as Sam was awake.  I don't think that's defending anything, because I acknowledge that not telling Sam was wrong. 

[sugarbabex23]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't think the possession itself was the problem.  It was Dean not telling Sam about it as soon as Sam was awake.  I don't think that's defending anything, because I acknowledge that not telling Sam was wrong. 

I disagree. The possession itself was terrible and the fact that he didn't tell Sam about it was terrible. Dean was wrong about both the possession and not telling him about. Dean was just plain wrong in Season 9. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by sugarbabex23

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't think the possession itself was the problem.  It was Dean not telling Sam about it as soon as Sam was awake.  I don't think that's defending anything, because I acknowledge that not telling Sam was wrong. 

I agree.

[Aeryn13]

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That's why when Sam said that speech in The Purge, I didn't feel that sorry for Dean because as harsh and hurtful as it was, Sam was also telling the truth. 

So it is true then that Dean has never done anything good or selfless in his entire life and has been nothing but a selfish, shitty coward from birth on? 

Because if it means that as a Dean-fan, I have to state that this is the truth, then sure, I`m excusing the character too much. Since I think this is bullshit.

I did think Sam was completely in the right to be angry over the Gadreel issue and what Dean did was plain wrong but that speech made me hate Sam. Because once more, it is not actions he attacks, it is Dean`s personhood with blanket statements. Like fucking always. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Aeryn13