DittyDotDot July 2, 2017 Author Share July 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, auntvi said: I like the idea of Sam having some residual powers that would sometimes be useful. They already use spells and such quite a bit. But I don't want it as another bone of contention between the 2 brothers. Dean would have to get over his knee-jerk antipathy to Sam's psychic powers. I'm glad they moved away from Sam's powers. I think human characters are far more interesting as characters than those who have powers. I was okay with Sam's power only because they didn't really use it as a power week in and week out, but from the moment they revealed he was having visions, I found him far less interesting as a character. I think he's been far more interesting since he hasn't had them, myself. 4 Link to comment
ahrtee July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: It seems to me that you are dismissing Dean's contribution to changing Amara's mind to back down willingly as unimportant. Or at least not as important as Sam's 'strength of will' against Lucifer. And I just don't agree. Because I think it took enormous strength of will for Dean to face Amara alone, knowing he was going to die (whether or not he did) and find the right things to say, under very stressful circumstances and in the heat of the moment, that would make her change her mind. In this analogy, according to you, a SWAT team member who storms a hostage situation and physically wrestles down a terrorist, who is armed with an uzi, killing them both in the process but saving the rest of the hostages, is more of a hero than the negotiator who goes in armed, but then sets aside his weapon to talk the terrorist, who has his finger on the trigger of a nuclear warhead, into giving up his hostages - and everyone walks out alive. Actually, I think it takes more guts to do what the negotiator did, than the SWAT team member. I never said Dean was unimportant, just that, in the eyes of many fans, his actions (and especially the consequences) were not comparable to Sam's in Swan Song. IA that it took tremendous courage for Dean to face Amara alone (though he really didn't have any choice, since there was no one else who could do it.) I'm not sure how much influence he had on Amara's decision (except for that final "what do you want?" because Pigeon Lady had already started her thinking and realizing how pointless her feud with Chuck was, and she was already halfway ready to stop. It was actually confronting Chuck directly (and having him apologizing) that finally changed her mind. Dean was *one* of the influences, but not the main one. But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the perception of heroism in the show and in general. The reason why so many Dean fans feel short changed. Because (sadly) in today's world it's the splashy saves that get honored and rewarded. In your analogy--it may take more guts for the negotiator to do his job, but it would be the SWAT team member who gets the honor, the news coverage, and the medal (posthumously, of course....) 2 Link to comment
Reganne July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, catrox14 said: The problem with Fallen Idols is that the narrative conflated Sam's issues with Dean to their hunting despite that never being an issue in the past even in s2 when Dean thought he'd have to kill Sam, unless I'm not forgetting some hunts where that was the case. It didn't seem to be an issue even in s3. Dean didn't want to be around Sam in the beginning of s4 when he learned Sam was hanging out with Ruby not because he didn't trust Sam has a hunting partner. It seemed to be the typical dynamic of give and take and splitting up roles and activities in their casework and of mutual trust. Even in the Siren episode and Metamorphosis, they had issues with each other but it didn't seem to extend to the hunting itself. Dean felt betrayed by Sam WRT Ruby but it was never tied into how they were together as hunters, not for the most part. IMO, if Dean had been inclined to bossy tendencies WRT to hunting, Sam made it clear that Dean was not going to boss him around as a hunting duo, when as early as the pilot Sam literally shoved Dean away from the computer because he wasn't satisfied with how Dean was doing the research. It was Sam's idea that they needed to don suits to be pretend to be federal agents in Phantom Traveler even as he made fun of Dean for having fake IDs made at Kinko's. I think they were shown to be on pretty equal footing as hunters. Dean didn't boss Sam around on hunts as a matter of course. Even IF Dean tended to see Dean as a kid, he did not behave with him in that manner after Scarecrow and he rarely behaved that way with Sam on hunts so it really wasn't an MO that made sense for Fallen Idols. So why even conflate their interpersonal issues with their hunting. But then nothing makes any sense in Fallen Idols. LIke, I said before if this episode fell before THE END, I could buy into Dean and Sam's issues; that Dean was still having trouble with forgiving and forgetting and that Sam would feel like Dean didn't trust him, but placing it after their reconciliation wherein Dean asserted his trust in Sam and Sam promised to not let him down after Dean learned the lesson that he was wrong to say that they were better apart than together to his about face after seeing what the future potentially held for him, Sam and Cas and the world at large. So I ask the question, why does this episode exist? IMO it really only makes sense as a set up for why Sam had to jump into the pit alone. I always thought that their roles were 'heightened' in fallen idols and maybe that's the reason it came to a head at that point. Dean was calling all the shots at that time and wouldn't listen to what Sam had to say about the case. It's not like Dean doesn't ever listen to Sam or that Sam doesn't ever get to make decisions or give ideas. I think regardless of everything, he felt more like a follower of Dean. Though not always as apparent, Sam does seem to follow Dean's lead a lot more IMO. I think it's natural because characteristically, Dean is more of a leader. I don't have a problem with that. However, I think it just came to a head in fallen idols because of how Dean was shutting him down. Sam was basically saying that wasn't going to work for him. I do agree with you about these issues being better addressed before The End. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: To clarify, you meant Sam only felt inferior to Dean in regards to the job of hunting? Because while I don`t see that either, I took your earlier post as Sam feeling inferior to Dean as a person so my response was in regards to that. Personally, I think Sam has always looked down on Dean somewhat. And he still does. Yes, I was meaning feeling inferior in terms of hunting. I got the impression that the scene where Sam says Dean needs to let him grow up mostly referred to the way they work together. Not necessarily their relationship as a hole. Most likely because the issues arose from the case they were on and how Sam was trying to say the case wasn't officially solved yet. How their dynamic as hunters would only work on equal footing. 5 Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Quote Though not always as apparent, Sam does seem to follow Dean's lead a lot more IMO. I think it's natural because characteristically, Dean is more of a leader. I don't have a problem with that. However, I think it just came to a head in fallen idols because of how Dean was shutting him down. Sam was basically saying that wasn't going to work for him. And yet in that episode Sam held Ruby up as a positive example in its own way. She apparently made him feel strong whereas Dean didn`t. Well, Ruby played him a lot more for a fool than Dean did. But because she topped Sam from the bottom, it gave him the illusion of strength. He wasn`t her leader, he wasn`t even her equal but it was still better than Dean apparently. So if only Dean had acted more submissively, apparently he could have called the shots, just so long as it wasn`t obvious to Sam. If that is what Sam likes, he could have gotten another hunting partner himself. Also, before this episode the brothers had plenty of teamwork. So Dean changing his ways overall meant to me that he was supposed to assume a lesser role. I found it deeply ironic that Sam called Dean pathetic for obeying John back in the day. Because IMO his problem wasn`t so much what Dean did but who he did it for. In other words if Dean did the same thing for Sam, it might still have made him pathetic in Sam`s eyes but Sam would have been fine with that. 3 Link to comment
ahrtee July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, auntvi said: Dean would have to get over his knee-jerk antipathy to Sam's psychic powers. I wouldn't call it "knee-jerk antipathy" and it's not to all Sam's powers. Dean was worried about the visions in the beginning (mostly because of how it affected Sam and because they didn't know where it was coming from) but he followed all Sam's visions to help save people. IMO, it was a combination of seeing how the powers corrupted the other psychic kids and seeing how Sam himself changed while *using* his powers in season 4 (remember, that was before he knew about the demon blood) that had him worried. That, plus the angels telling him that Sam shouldn't use them. In fact, it was only Ruby and Lucifer who were thrilled with Sam using his powers, which should say something about it. If you're saying that you think Sam would be the only one of the psychic kids who could use the powers *only* for good without being corrupted, maybe (that's kind of what Dean thought about the MoC, too). But. as DDD pointed out above, that would make him something other than human. It might also potentially make him a target for other hunters, would put Dean in the position of "hero support" to a superhero (which would no doubt anger at least half the fandom) and, to me, would be far less interesting than two humans trying to save people using just their own brains, hearts and guts. It would be a whole different show, and IMO the CW has way too many of that kind already. 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, ahrtee said: But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the perception of heroism in the show and in general. The reason why so many Dean fans feel short changed. Because (sadly) in today's world it's the splashy saves that get honored and rewarded. In your analogy--it may take more guts for the negotiator to do his job, but it would be the SWAT team member who gets the honor, the news coverage, and the medal (posthumously, of course....) I disagree. Usually, the big splashy saves get picked apart by the media and the 'experts' about how it could have all gone down better and no one would have had to get hurt or die. (Because inevitably, in those splashy saves, some one gets hurt.) And then, as a real reward, they get hit with a lawsuit - or their surviving family members would. The ones where the negotiator saves everyone? Those are the ones that really get the accolades without any 'buts' afterward. So maybe the disconnect isn't due to the show itself; it's the individual perception of what heroism is on the show. Rather, what we each think the show is portraying as heroism (which is obviously different for many of us) based on what we personally, in general, perceive to be heroic and transfer to what is witnessed on the show. 2 Link to comment
ahrtee July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I disagree. Usually, the big splashy saves get picked apart by the media and the 'experts' about how it could have all gone down better and no one would have had to get hurt or die. (Because inevitably, in those splashy saves, some one gets hurt.) And then, as a real reward, they get hit with a lawsuit - or their surviving family members would. The ones where the negotiator saves everyone? Those are the ones that really get the accolades without any 'buts' afterward. So maybe the disconnect isn't due to the show itself; it's the individual perception of what heroism is on the show. Rather, what we each think the show is portraying as heroism (which is obviously different for many of us) based on what we personally, in general, perceive to be heroic and transfer to what is witnessed on the show. As I said before, agree to disagree. We're going around in circles on this. Edited July 2, 2017 by ahrtee 1 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 I agree with @DittyDotDot and @ahrtee: I'm okay with Sam not having his powers any more. I liked the visions story - before the psychic powers got really blown up. But I don't want to see them come back. 3 Link to comment
Reganne July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: And yet in that episode Sam held Ruby up as a positive example in its own way. She apparently made him feel strong whereas Dean didn`t. Well, Ruby played him a lot more for a fool than Dean did. But because she topped Sam from the bottom, it gave him the illusion of strength. He wasn`t her leader, he wasn`t even her equal but it was still better than Dean. Also, before this episode the brothers had plenty of teamwork. So Dean changing his ways overall meant to me that he was supposed to assume a lesser role. I don't see it as Ruby being better than Dean. I think it was more the powers that made Sam feel strong and powerful. It just so happened that Ruby was the one to set those powers in motion. When Dean was in hell, he got a taste of those powers and he didn't want to let them go. Thus he stuck with Ruby despite what everyone else was telling him. He firmly believed the ends of destroying Lilith would justify the means of using his demon powers and the only way he believed he could do that was through working with Ruby. I dont see it as meaning Dean would have less of role at all. With the dynamics of what was happening in fallen idols and Dean calling absolutely all the shots and not listening to Sam, I see it as being more on equal footing. Sam wanting to have a voice as well. Edited July 2, 2017 by Reganne 4 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Reganne said: I think regardless of everything, he felt more like a follower of Dean. Though not always as apparent, Sam does seem to follow Dean's lead a lot more IMO. I think it's natural because characteristically, Dean is more of a leader. I don't have a problem with that. However, I think it just came to a head in fallen idols because of how Dean was shutting him down. Sam was basically saying that wasn't going to work for him. IMO, if it was only about the case, the writing should have left it with Sam saying something like "Dean, quit being a dick to me about this case. Here are my opinions". The writer could have had Sam address Dean's overall attitude towards him separate from the case. Instead Sam was permitted in the narrative to call out Dean for being a jerk to him and for not being a good hunting partner because of Dean's bad attitude with Sam. And finally the only way to resolve it is for Dean to set aside his anger and resentment and behave as Sam's wants him to behave, even though Dean presented NONE of that behavior towards Sam at the end of THE END. Hell even their breakup in 5.1 wasn't filled with the rancor this episode created. The writing went a step further with pushing it to Dean having not let Sam grow up. The problem is compounded with Dean's characterization in the episode as a completely unlikeable, downright mean, dumbass douchebag. Even early s1 Dean, who I was not huge fan of, and early s3 Dean, were not as odious as the Dean in Fallen Idols. WRT, to Sam being a natural follower I could buy that Sam maybe looked to Dean in the beginning when he went back after Jessica died, just to get back into the swing of hunting. Yet that kind of doesn't really mesh with Sam's on screen behavior and actions in the pilot and throughout most of s1 and s2 when Sam frequently and with regularity asserted himself with Dean, who frequently and with regularity agreed with and at times acquiesced to Sam's opinions on cases. It definitely doesn't mesh with the Sam in s3, who in Mystery Spot was desperate to save Dean; the Sam that told Dean to just be his brother again in Fresh Blood; the Sam that was trying to get Dean to see the zombie doctor dude; the Sam who was trying to talk Dean off the ledge of believing that John was calling him; the Sam that was willing to take help from Ruby to save Dean. Sam was never a wilting flower, following Dean around like a puppy dog or putting up with any bullying, at least not in the way I think Fallen Idols was implying over all. I swear I am more mystified by Fallen Idols existence than Bloodlines LOL. Edited July 2, 2017 by catrox14 2 Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Quote With the dynamics of what was happening in fallen idols and Dean calling absolutely all the shots and not listening to Sam, I see it as being more on equal footing. But their dynamic wasn`t like Fallen Idols all the time. The episode existed to create this fallacy. IMO they were working together as equals before this episode. Yet Sam said "before didn`t work". Not just in this episode which was an aberration but all the episodes before. Apparently that didn`t work for Sam. The entire dynamic from before. So it wasn`t about how Dean acted in this specific episode, it was about taking any grievances Dean had and shoving them by making Sam the victim of his bullyness so Dean and Dean alone had to change. I only wonder if Sam also included all the times he picked a case or made Dean do something in his "before didn`t work". Guess not because it wouldn`t have fit with the bossy Dean narrative. 4 Link to comment
Reganne July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, catrox14 said: WRT, to Sam being a natural follower I could buy that Sam maybe looked to Dean in the beginning when he went back after Jessica died. I don't know necessarily that Sam is purely a follower but he does more often tend to follow Dean's lead. I do think Dean is more of a leader type character though. 5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: But their dynamic wasn`t like Fallen Idols all the time. The episode existed to create this fallacy. IMO they were working together as equals before this episode. I think Dean's actions in this episode were exaggerated to bring these issues to light for Sam. The dynamic definitely wasn't that bad in early seasons. It was a lot more subtle. I don't know but I have always thought as Dean as more of the leader of the two.... but Sam usually does have some input. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Just now, Reganne said: I don't know necessarily that Sam is purely a follower but he does more often tend to follow Dean's lead. I do think Dean is more of a leader type character though. Oh I don't disagree that Dean is a leader when it comes to hunting and soldiering so to speak. I think Sam has shown himself to be a leader more often than a follower. IMO they are both leaders and that role flip flops in cases throughout the series IMO. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 1 hour ago, ahrtee said: As I said before, agree to disagree. We're going around in circles on this. Sure thing. Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Quote I think Dean's actions in this episode were exaggerated to bring these issues to light for Sam. The dynamic definitely wasn't that bad in early seasons. But exaggerating Dean`s actions undermines Sam`s point that Dean and their dynamic had always been this bad. He didn`t say Dean needed to change how he acted in this episode, he said Dean needed to change, period. And their dynamic hadn`t worked previously. Basically what they were before when they were equals wasn`t good enough for Sam. 2 Link to comment
Reganne July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Just now, Aeryn13 said: But exaggerating Dean`s actions undermines Sam`s point that Dean and their dynamic had always been this bad. He didn`t say Dean needed to change how he acted in this episode, he said Dean needed to change, period. And their dynamic hadn`t worked previously. Basically what they were before when they were equals wasn`t good enough for Sam. I think Sam didn't feel like an equal to Dean before. 14 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Oh I don't disagree that Dean is a leader when it comes to hunting and soldiering so to speak. I think Sam has shown himself to be a leader more often than a follower. IMO they are both leaders and that role flip flops in cases throughout the series IMO. Fair enough. I do think Sam has a tendency to follow more but YMMV. 4 Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) Quote I think Sam didn't feel like an equal to Dean before. And yet I think for the most part he was treated like an equal. So if he wanted more to feel more in power, that is his problem. If Sam wanted a more subservient hunting partner, then he could have gone looking for one. No, instead Dean has to change to fit Sam`s liking. Which I didn`t see as a two-way street because to be honest I didn`t see what Sam was changing to make the dynamic work. So he didn`t call Dean weak to his face and boohoo him anymore compared to Season 4. And he wasn`t lying to his face all the time? Was that supposed to be it? Guess Sam felt he had done nothing wrong or contributed to the bad dynamic pre-Season 4 that maybe HE needed to address and change. He seemed to me to think that his only previous flaw was not demanding Dean change but nothing about himself. In Dean`s place, I would have presented him with a list of "that`s what didn`t work for me either so please change that". But of course Dean isn`t allowed to do a thing like that. And I`m guessing Sam would have felt wrongly victimized to be called out on his shit like that. Edited July 2, 2017 by Aeryn13 4 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Admittedly, it is and has been my main problem with the character for all 12 Seasons of the show. So in that regard, it is less acceptable to me but during Season 4 I actually believed they were working on it. Evidently, not so much. But to be fair, it is a problem with the line readings in conjunction with the writing for me so that`s most likely never gonna change. Dean does have arrogance but that`s not the main problem of the character for me. It`s actually something far worse in my eyes. It`s the patheticness that comes out in regards to family. Drives me up walls. But again, also not likely to change. In these late years only ignoring the hell out of it helps me keep my sanity. Except that Sam also has this "patheticness" you are talking about concerning family now - see season 9 and 10, except Sam is punished for it in show, while Dean isn't. So Sam is punished both for his arrogance (his "main flaw") and for sacrificing for / making decisions for Dean (Dean's supposed "main flaw" - though I don't think the show considers it a flaw for Dean). As I said before arrogance is arrogance. Why should it matter if that arrogance is supposedly the one character's main problem, but only a secondary one in the other? It's still arrogance either way. 18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: And I truly did like the development of the brothers relationship in Seasons 1 and 2. But season 1 and 2 were a lot about Sam realizing that he was wrong about their family and his life and mainly turning around to Dean's way of thinking. And yes, I acknowledge that Dean said that he admired Sam for going out on his own and standing up to John during this time, but that praise was fairly short-lived. Later, Dean still often accused Sam of "running out on the family" like he "usually does" and showing his admiration for Sam doing that wasn't so cut and dried. Season 1 and 2 were more about Sam compromising for Dean than vica versa, in my opinion. Though that didn't really bother me too much, since things evened out more later. 7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: I know it`s different for you but I don`t care so much about the scale of the losses on the way. Characters screwing up and it spiraling into madness and mayhem is a given of a story for me, especially a dark story. So when that not happens to Dean so much, I don`t see it as a narrative boon, I see it as the writers not being interested enough in him to write real, fleshed-out stories that way. Except on this show the negatives aren't sometimes just things "spiraling into madness." There seems to be a "point" to them - see my example of Sam and the deaths Amara caused below. And I disagree that they don't "flesh out" Dean's stories, since in recent years, sometimes Dean carries both the POV and the mytharc at the same time, and even when Sam does get the POV - as in parts of both season 9 and 10 - it gets flipped against him somehow. 7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: So why didn`t Dean get that moment you were looking for? He wasn`t important enough to the writers, that`s why. Him being beaten by Metatron and being turned into a demon could have been that moment. But again, he wasn`t important enough to do something with it. IMO it`s not because he is protected or catered to or something, it is because he is not considered as much of a lead character. That's interesting considering that in those seasons, Dean had the mytharc and sometimes the POV also. He also had the bad guy killing and action for the most part. It's not like all of Sam's arcs are well fleshed out either. Take the beginning of season 8 and what became of season 9 for example. It's more likely to me that Dean didn't get any large negative consequences for his arrogance, because the writers or show runner agreed with Dean's point of view and so didn't make anything really negative happen to reflect that, especially since the story was mostly about Dean during that time, and so he obviously was the character of focus/significance at that time. If the writers thought Dean wasn't important, I don't think they would've had the majority of the mytharc devoted to him. And there weren't just no negative consequences of Dean killing Death... but the association created from that actually had positive results. That's just not just "not negative" it's actually a positive. Whereas the writers went out of their way to make sure that Amara caused 1000s of deaths that didn't even have any real impact on the story (and even happened offscreen) except to make sure that Sam was the cause of them, not because they were "important" to the story. And then make sure to have God himself point out that it wasn't Dean's fault but it was Sam's fault. And then have Dean solve this huge problem. That Sam caused. So I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is somehow "favoring" Sam. Like at all. If you are wanting a few 1000 deaths to be on Dean's head, have God blame him, and then give him no role in righting that consequence, because you think somehow that's a good thing... well I don't know what to say. Because logically for me, that makes no sense at all. And the ironic thing? I loved season 11, because at least Sam got a few random positive episodes focused on him for the first time in a long time*, but despite all of the above, apparently those few pro-Sam episodes were too good for the character even though Dean got the mytharc, the big save at the end, and none of the blame. I just don't get it. What, on top of all of that positive for Dean, Sam has to get no Sam positive episodes and Dean also has to get a "flashy win?" How would that not be just the "Dean Show" then? * And I thought quite a few of the episodes were well written. 8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: In Season 4, yes. But my point was: Season 5 retconned that. In the new lol-canon of Season 5 Sam wasn`t acting out of hubris in Season 4 but because Dean was bossy and unsupportive. And only when he learned his lesson and accepted his place as Sam`s lowly cheerleader than Sam could truly be the one to defeat Lucifer. If I believed that that was what "Fallen Idols" was saying - which I don't, because it makes little sense, in my opinion, since if Dean "supported" Sam in reference to Ruby, Lucifer still would've been released and Sam'e powers still would've resulted in bad - how is this different from what happened to Sam in season 9 - 11 where Sam had to learn that Dean was right to stick Gadreel in him, that Dean was right to take the mark of Cain, etc. and be "cheerleader" while Dean saved the world? ... well except for that Sam also got the blame, and was also wrong about everything, because maybe if only Sam hadn't been "mean" to Dean and supported Dean in the Gadreel decision, maybe Dean would've been more careful in taking on the mark and all that bad wouldn't have happened. Sure, Dean needed the mark of Cain to kill Abaddon, but I can make arguments that don't make a lot of sense also. In my opinion, the writers screw over BOTH Sam and Dean if it furthers their plot and/or sense of "drama." 6 hours ago, ILoveReading said: The problem with the writing is that when there is riff in the brothers relationship, regardless of who did what I find the show puts the burden on Dean. That it's Dean that has to change his behavior. Except in my opinion, under this premise, Sam wouldn't be the one more like Dean now in terms of their life and philosophy rather than vica versa. And exactly how did Dean change his behavior except to consider Sam's input on cases again, and how is that not a good thing? And Sam did change his behavior in season 5 - a lot (I've given many examples before, so I won't repeat) and in season 6 (the "don't scratch the wall" debate) and season 7 (the Amy disagreement). I just don't see the one-way street that you do. I see both brothers compromising. And as I mention below, when the situation was reversed and Dean made the deal and in a way "betrayed" Sam, Sam ended up being the one who had to make most of the compromises and just accept Dean's decision and not be "angry about it," because Dean said so. I didn't see much compromise from Dean in that scenario myself. 4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Well, of course. Because the other people have the right to treat him however the hell they want and only he is in the wrong if he doesn`t react to their liking. That`s basically the show. I disagree with this entirely, but otherwise commenting on it would likely be pointless. 5 hours ago, ILoveReading said: So how did Dean make Sam feel like a kid brother when Sam spent entire season thinking he was superior to Dean? It makes no sense as the reason he gave to Dean as to why he was with Ruby. It's contradictory and the reason it comes across as blame shifting. Sam needed to acknowledge that he was not in control at all with regards to Ruby. As I said it was all an illusion. I thought Sam was referring to season 3 myself when he talked about "going off with Ruby," and in season 3 Sam was dealing with Dean making decisions for Sam that Sam had no control over. As for Sam admitting that his feeling of control with Ruby was an illusion, I think Sam pretty much acknowledged that when he said that it was a mistake to listen to Ruby in the first place and then admit that it was his fault for needing to feel "strong" when obviously he wasn't - I mean duh - and that now he was trying to fix that and had obviously been back with dean and was trying to change. I personally didn't need to see Sam humiliate himself in order for this to come across - since that wouldn't exactly win Sam any ground with Dean's current "why should I listen to you?" argument either - but that's just me. 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: The problem with Fallen Idols is that the narrative conflated Sam's issues with Dean to their hunting despite that never being an issue in the past even in s2 when Dean thought he'd have to kill Sam, unless I'm not forgetting some hunts where that was the case. This may be mostly true, although Dean did pull some, "because I'm older, so that means I'm right" moments in the past on hunts, but in this case Dean was now conflating the issue due to his trust issues. 1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said: Basically what they were before when they were equals wasn`t good enough for Sam. Except they weren't really always equals - which is why Dean ended up making the deal in the first place. That wasn't a case of the week, but it was an extension of the basic problem that Dean considered himself justified in making decisions for Sam and told Sam just that when Sam complained. That, to me, is not "equals." 36 minutes ago, catrox14 said: and finally the only way to resolve it is for Dean to set aside his anger and resentment and behave as Sam's wants him to behave, even though Dean presented NONE of that behavior towards Sam at the end of the end. Actually Sam told Dean that he could be as angry with him as he wanted, but that that couldn't translate over into the case. As for "The End" as I said, I think part of the miscommunication there was that Dean - understandably perhaps - only gave Sam part of the story of why he came back. He left out the other part by not telling Sam "Oh and by the way, in the future that I saw, you said 'yes' to Lucifer and I was extremely worried that if I didn't come back, that you would say 'yes' and everything would go to hell in a handbasket and so I don't exactly have faith in you at the moment, but..." which yes likely wouldn't have gone over very well, but explains why Sam and Dean were at a disconnect in "Fallen Idols" since Sam didn't know all of that was going on in Dean's head since what he was told was "We make each other human," and Sam believed that Dean believed Sam's "I wouldn't make that mistake" again and that he was very intent on not saying "yes" to Lucifer. 2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Which I didn`t see as a two-way street because to be honest I didn`t see what Sam was changing to make the dynamic work. So he didn`t call Dean weak to his face and boohoo him anymore compared to Season 4. And he wasn`t lying to his face all the time? Was that supposed to be it? No, Sam was following Dean's leads, taking Dean's criticism, admitting to Dean difficult truths like his (Sam's) own shortcomings and admitting it was his fault, and was trying to overcome it. Compare this to Dean's behavior after making the deal where Dean basically said well I had to do it, so don't be angry, and then later said that he was entitled to make that selfish decision, because he'd sacrificed enough already for the family, so tough. And then Sam had to agree and change his behavior accordingly in season 3 and accept Dean's decision despite the fact that it hurt Sam and Sam had had no say in the decision to begin with. So I think here Sam was trying to change himself a bit more than Dean had when the situation was reversed. 4 Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 Quote So Sam is punished both for his arrogance (his "main flaw") and for sacrificing for / making decisions for Dean (Dean's supposed "main flaw" - though I don't think the show considers it a flaw for Dean). I`m talking about what I consider flaws or rather what bugs me about the characters the most. The show does seem to think Dean is supposed to be a doormat for family but I most certainly do not. If there is one thing I hate about the character, it is that. He does have other obnoxious habits but those are not the main detractors for my personal enjoyment. Quote As I said before arrogance is arrogance. Why should it matter if that arrogance is supposedly the one character's main problem, but only a secondary one in the other? It's still arrogance either way. Same as above, it matters to me in how much it bugs me while watching. I watch shows like Sherlock and Elementary where 95 % of the main character`s personality is arrogance but the show presents it in such a way that I don`t want to run screaming while watching. Granted, with Sherlock on Sherlock it can be tiring. Quote apparently those few pro-Sam episodes were too good for the character even though Dean got the mytharc, the big save at the end, and none of the blame. I just don't get it. What, on top of all of that positive for Dean, Sam has to get no Sam positive episodes and Dean also has to get a "flashy win?" Sam also got a mini-arc with Lucifer that got more play in the mid-Season finale than Dean/Amara did. On top of that I found the mytharc with Dean/Amara to be not very fleshed out and found it really obvious that the writers had little to no interest in it. As well as in the Finale which was as un-flashy as they come. They even had to bring in pigeon lady to dilude Dean`s part further. As for Sam-positive episodes, I would prefer for them to not belittle Dean in the process. There was no reason Dean had to come across super-pathetic in the werewolf episode where Sam is basically Superman. And the "Dean needs to accept his guilt for not being there for Sam" when he was a child message as Speight so charmingly put it? No need for that either. Quote well except for that Sam also got the blame, and was also wrong about everything, because maybe if only Sam hadn't been "mean" to Dean and supported Dean in the Gadreel decision, maybe Dean would've been more careful in taking on the mark and all that bad wouldn't have happened. There was never an episode like Fallen Idols for that. Instead there was the Purge where I still stand by my opinion that the audience was meant to cheer Sam on. And afterwards, I think the show fully meant to portray Sam as completely supportive in ways mean Dean hadn`t been to him. Quote Except they weren't really always equals - which is why Dean ended up making the deal in the first place. Making the deal was pathetic. I have always thought so. Just because those were some well-acted scenes doesn`t mean I didn`t look down on the character for it. Just as the character came across in 5.22, the werewolf episode where Sam was super or even the Gadreel thing. Those were all pathetic moments. I hated them. And none of those showed the character of Dean in a position of strength. If anything Sam appears superior in those episodes. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Sam also got a mini-arc with Lucifer that got more play in the mid-Season finale than Dean/Amara did. On top of that I found the mytharc with Dean/Amara to be not very fleshed out and found it really obvious that the writers had little to no interest in it. Even though Sam did say "no," the other results of that mini arc were 1) to show that Sam had been wrong about his visions 2) that Sam then screwed up, so that Dean had to come save him, and 3) It was then partially Sam's fault that Lucifer got out, because Sam and Castiel had to come save him... and then the arc was sort of ignored after that, since they didn't really explore how Sam should feel about having to work with Lucifer. Oh, except as a platform to where Sam had to admit how wrong he was to have not looked for Dean in season 8... a storyline that I thought was an insult to Sam's character in the first place. So as much as I enjoyed season 11 and it was a vast improvement for me over season 8 and 9, I wouldn't exactly call Sam's mini arc an entirely positive one. I enjoyed that Sam said "no" very much, but the writers still made sure to throw in enough "Sam is wrong" and "Sam messes up" stuff to balance out the positive. As for the Dean/Amara storyline, I thought that it was plenty enough fleshed out. Amara herself explained in one of the beginning episodes that Dean was her representative of Chuck's creation (I think it was "Thin Lizzy") and that pretty much set the tone and explained what their relationship was. We learned that Dean and Amara couldn't hurt each other - another piece. And that they shared a bond - another piece. For me, I'm not sure what else more I needed. That, to me, explained what was going on just fine. Here was Dean, a piece of Chuck's creation that Amara literally couldn't destroy even if she wanted to - unlike everything else Chuck had created - and they shared a bond so she could understand him. Because of that, through Dean she could learn about Chuck's creation, and learn to appreciate it. I didn't need any more explanation or fleshing out than that or think that the writers had no interest in the storyline*. If anything, they didn't seem to have an interest in the Sam/Lucifer storyline beyond where we got Sam to the guilt, semi-apologizing to Dean and Lucifer is in Castiel parts. Fortunately for me, they had some other good episodes and storylines to take up the enjoyment for me. * For me there were just as many, if not more, non-fleshed out parts in Sam's season 4 storyline where we were missing or they glossed right over a few extremely important milestones: like the state of mind and the moral event horizon leading to Sam's blood drinking to start with and the motivation to relapse and continue on the "dark path" of blood drinking. Considering that the blood-drinking was the big revel, for me those things would be very important things to gloss over. And that should have been a storyline that the writers were interested in. Therefor I don't equate missing details with story disinterest on this show. 44 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: There was never an episode like Fallen Idols for that. Instead there was the Purge where I still stand by my opinion that the audience was meant to cheer Sam on. And afterwards, I think the show fully meant to portray Sam as completely supportive in ways mean Dean hadn`t been to him. I disagree, or as I said in my opinion Sam would've been right and stuck to his principals. Because Sam didn't that throws into question everything Sam said there in "The Purge" which I think was the intention: to show Sam was angry, and though maybe justifiably so to a point, he was being too harsh and not listening to Dean's dose of "truth," but by the end of the season Sam learned the truth of how Dean was right about everything with the added indignity of having to call Gadreel a "real friend." But up until that point of learning his lesson - starting in "Mother's Little Helper" - Sam wasn't supportive enough. Even after "Mother's..." Sam still complained about being left out and hadn't fully embraced just doing what Dean said which was shown to be effective since Dean succeeded in killing Abbadon. I wasn't seeing the supposedly "supportive" Sam that you're talking about. And of course, Sam learned his lesson too late, and failed to save Dean anyway... and was a hypocrite. I think if the show wanted to show Sam as supportive, they would have actually done that - and not had "The Purge" speech become a bunch of obvious lies - instead of doing what they did do. Sorry, I don't see any evidence they were trying to make Sam "supportive." 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot July 2, 2017 Author Share July 2, 2017 (edited) I don't know what it is about Sundays that makes me embrace futility; maybe I'm just trying to avoid my life.. . 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: The problem with Fallen Idols is that the narrative conflated Sam's issues with Dean to their hunting despite that never being an issue in the past even in s2 when Dean thought he'd have to kill Sam, unless I'm not forgetting some hunts where that was the case. My last rewatch I really noticed that both Sam and Dean seemed to fall back into a more parent/child relationship at the start of S5 than the adult brother/brother one they'd developed starting in S1 up until Dean went to Hell at the end of S3. So, for me, Dean's behavior in Fallen Idols is not indicative of how they've worked together as adults but indicative of how they most likely operated when they were kids when Dean was left in charge of Sam and the responsibility fell on Dean if things went wrong. Dean seems to be acting like it's his responsibility to clean up his kid's mess while Sam, at first, seems to be standing by waiting for his punishment. By the time they get to Fallen Idols, Sam has decided he'd like to help clean up the mess, but Dean, still rightly pissed, isn't ready to let him and just wants him to go to his room and stay out of the way. So, IMO, what Sam is saying when he says Dean needs to let him grow up is: Dean was going to have to let Sam out of the house unsupervised again and Sam was going to have to make better decisions so as not to run out into traffic and cause another pile up. And, I think what he's saying about how Ruby made him feel strong wasn't Sam saying it was Dean's fault that he ran out into traffic, but that maybe Dean could help him build a fence around the yard so it wouldn't be so easy for him to run out in traffic again. To me, Sam was just asking Dean to help him avoid falling into the same patterns because he didn't fully trust himself to do it on his own. Edited July 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot 4 Link to comment
ILoveReading July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: Sam also got a mini-arc with Lucifer that got more play in the mid-Season finale than Dean/Amara did. On top of that I found the mytharc with Dean/Amara to be not very fleshed out and found it really obvious that the writers had little to no interest in it. Even though Sam did say "no," the other results of that mini arc were 1) to show that Sam had been wrong about his visions 2) that Sam then screwed up, so that Dean had to come save him, and 3) It was then partially Sam's fault that Lucifer got out, because Sam and Castiel had to come save him... and then the arc was sort of ignored after that, since they didn't really explore how Sam should feel about having to work with Lucifer. Oh, except as a platform to where Sam had to admit how wrong he was to have not looked for Dean in season 8... a storyline that I thought was an insult to Sam's character in the first place. Except no one the show ever called Sam out on being wrong. The show even went out of its way to have Sully tell Sam that only he was brave enough and special enough to go into the cage. Then Sam got an episode where he got to confront his greatest failures and a direct confrontation with Lucifer. They even sent Dean out of the picture so he couldn't object and didn't allow Dean anymore than a straw mans argument as to why it was bad idea. Then they made Cas screw up worse to take the focus of Sam. It came across to me that we were supposed to see Sam as brave for going into the cage, not "wrong." 21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: As for the Dean/Amara storyline, I thought that it was plenty enough fleshed out. Amara herself explained in one of the beginning episodes that Dean was her representative of Chuck's creation (I think it was "Thin Lizzy") and that pretty much set the tone and explained what their relationship was. We learned that Dean and Amara couldn't hurt each other - another piece. And that they shared a bond - another piece. For me, I'm not sure what else more I needed. I disagree it was well fleshed out because unless Amara and Dean were within 3 feet of each other, Amara seemed to forget Dean existed. Carver couldn't be bothered to any thought or effort into the storyline. That was obvious when asked if Amara chose not to take Dean's soul or couldn't, and he said. "Let the audience decide." Carver had no idea and didn't care. That was an important plot point. Amara said they'd never let harm come to the other, yet Dean was in jeopardy many times in s11 and Amara couldn't be bothered. If it was true, Dean should never have gotten as far as he did. IMO, in a well written storyline Amara should have shown up in 11.17, not Billie. In episode 18, Amara was pursuing Rowena not Dean. There was one brief look after Dean called for Cas, that came across as "oops these two characters are supposed to have a connection." It seemed clear that whoever was in charge had zero interest in the storyline. Even Jensen commented that as far as episode 18 he was still confused and had no idea how to play things with Amara. Given that Jensen puts a lot of thought and effort into how he plays Dean in certain situations, the fact that even he couldn't figure out what the storyline was supposed to be about speaks volumes. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Actually Sam told Dean that he could be as angry with him as he wanted, but that that couldn't translate over into the case. As for "The End" as I said, I think part of the miscommunication there was that Dean - understandably perhaps - only gave Sam part of the story of why he came back. He left out the other part by not telling Sam "Oh and by the way, in the future that I saw, you said 'yes' to Lucifer and I was extremely worried that if I didn't come back, that you would say 'yes' and everything would go to hell in a handbasket and so I don't exactly have faith in you at the moment, but..." which yes likely wouldn't have gone over very well, but explains why Sam and Dean were at a disconnect in "Fallen Idols" since Sam didn't know all of that was going on in Dean's head since what he was told was "We make each other human," and Sam believed that Dean believed Sam's "I wouldn't make that mistake" again and that he was very intent on not saying "yes" to Lucifer. I guess the difference is that I'm blaming Julie Siege/Kripke/Gamble and not really Sam nor Dean. Yes it has the negative impact to the characters, one more than the other, but it's IMO, a table setter for Dean's "arc" as it was in s5. That Dean had to be shown to be not letting Sam be who Sam was meant to be in with the "not letting Sam grow up". Just to illustrate this is final conversation between Dean and Sam in The End. Quote DEAN waits by the Impala. Another car pulls up. SAM gets out. DEAN and SAM approach each other. DEAN Sam. DEAN pulls out Ruby's knife. SAM looks at it nervously. DEAN holds it out to SAM, handle first. DEAN If you're serious and you want back in...you should hang on to this. I'm sure you're rusty. SAM takes the knife. He can't meet DEAN's eyes. DEAN Look, man, I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm...whatever I need to be. But I was, uh—wrong. SAM What made you change your mind? DEAN Long story. The point is...maybe we are each other's Achilles heel. Maybe they'll find a way to use us against each other, I don't know. I just know we're all we've got. More than that. We keep each other human. SAM Thank you. Really. Thank you. I won't let you down. DEAN Oh, I know it. I mean, you are the second-best hunter on the planet. SAM nods. SAM So, what do we do now? DEAN We make our own future. SAM Guess we have no choice. When I read this and think about the acting of that scene, IMO, Dean had no reservations about bringing Sam back into the fold. He wasn't snarky, hesitant or anything else. There was every indication that Dean had made a firm decision right then and there to trust Sam. I don't now how much more clear Dean could have been about HIS OWN mind set; that he had seen enough and had accepted that he was wrong to think they were better apart. IMO, if he told Sam that he saw a torched planet and that Sam had said yes to Lucifer, that would have worked to destroy Sam's belief in himself that he wouldn't say yes to Lucifer. I just will never understand, aside from a narrative shift for Dean, why there was a complete 180 from Dean with absolutely no explanation as to how much time went by that would account for his regression from his sure footing with Sam in THE END. If they had said that Dean didn't remember his trip to the alternate future then I could have accepted his attitude in Fallen Idols but he did remember so...it doesn't make sense. Edited July 2, 2017 by catrox14 4 Link to comment
companionenvy July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Except no one the show ever called Sam out on being wrong. The show even went out of its way to have Sully tell Sam that only he was brave enough and special enough to go into the cage. Then Sam got an episode where he got to confront his greatest failures and a direct confrontation with Lucifer. They even sent Dean out of the picture so he couldn't object and didn't allow Dean anymore than a straw mans argument as to why it was bad idea. Then they made Cas screw up worse to take the focus of Sam. It came across to me that we were supposed to see Sam as brave for going into the cage, not "wrong." I don't remember if anyone ever explicitly said "You were wrong, Sam" but since Sam went to the Cage because he thought God was sending him a vision, and it turned out that, actually, it was Lucifer manipulating him, I don't see how that can be read as anything other than Sam being wrong. Yes, Cas is ultimately the one who actually releases Lucifer, and Sam gets a nice moment in the cage, but the premises on which he goes are totally false, and result in Cas being in a position to say "yes" to Lucifer. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2017 Share July 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: I don't remember if anyone ever explicitly said "You were wrong, Sam" but since Sam went to the Cage because he thought God was sending him a vision, and it turned out that, actually, it was Lucifer manipulating him, I don't see how that can be read as anything other than Sam being wrong. Yes, Cas is ultimately the one who actually releases Lucifer, and Sam gets a nice moment in the cage, but the premises on which he goes are totally false, and result in Cas being in a position to say "yes" to Lucifer. Even in Sam's wrongness there was good for Sam that came out of it. He was allowed to face his greatest fear again and say no. He gained self-forgiveness for not looking for Dean in s8 without having to say "I'm Sorry" to Dean. I would have much preferred him to say "I'm sorry for abandoning you" when you went to Purgatory, than "I never forgave myself". I thought it was strange because Sam never seemed to feel guilty at all for not looking for Dean in s8. IMO, if he did feel guilty specifically for the act of not looking for him, then the time for Sam to say so and make amends was during his bout with trialburculosis with a side of self reflection. Really though, I think all of that was just a convoluted way to insert Lucifer back into the show. Edited July 2, 2017 by catrox14 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: maybe I'm just trying to avoid my life.. . Psst. I'm avoiding house painting. Very successfully, I might add! ;) 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: When I read this and think about the acting of that scene, IMO, Dean had no reservations about bringing Sam back into the fold. He wasn't snarky, hesitant or anything else. There was every indication that Dean had made a firm decision right then and there to trust Sam. I don't now how much more clear Dean could have been about HIS OWN mind set; that he had seen enough and had accepted that he was wrong to think they were better apart. IMO, if he told Sam that he saw a torched planet and that Sam had said yes to Lucifer, that would have worked to destroy Sam's belief in himself that he wouldn't say yes to Lucifer. I just will never understand, aside from a narrative shift for Dean, why there was a complete 180 from Dean with absolutely no explanation as to how much time went by that would account for his regression from his sure footing with Sam in THE END. If they had said that Dean didn't remember his trip to the alternate future then I could have accepted his attitude in Fallen Idols but he did remember so...it doesn't make sense. I'm not sure, because nothing Dean saw in the alternate universe should have given Dean confidence in what Sam was going to do. Even within his trip to that universe he angrily was questioning why Sam would say "yes." I have generally been under the impression that Dean's "wes" were more "Is" as in "I am all you've got" and "I keep you human" with a smaller side of "we." Dean was even apologizing - which was tactical, but otherwise to me made less sense. Especially telling for me was Dean's hesitant "I don't know. I'm whatever I need to be." Kind of an odd thing to say if he was going into the situation confident bout it, but very convincing if he didn't want Sam out on his own. That was for me an indication that this was Dean "compromising" even though he wasn't ready to, because he didn't actually have confidence in Sam, but felt that he had to come back and watch out for him. So Dean's conclusion of what Zachariah showed him, I think, was that he thought he'd been wrong about them splitting up, but that was because he thought he needed to keep an eye on Sam more than anything else. And there were subtle hints on this throughout the season, as you said, that Dean was maybe resentful of having to come back so soon, especially since at the beginning of "The End," Dean had been perfectly ready to cut ties with Sam completely. So rather than seeing Dean's behavior as a 180, I thought it was a reflection that Dean actually wasn't that confident from the beginning and maybe didn't want to come back yet, but didn't trust Sam to be on his own. But I think Sam interpreted it as you had, that Dean was ready to give Sam a chance to be trusted again. So - mixed messages from the beginning. Of course, I could be completely wrong in my interpretation, but this is what I'd seen it as from the beginning. And so in that context, for me, both Dean's behavior in "Fallen Idols" and Sam's confusion about it were understandable and made sense, since they had entered back into their "partnership" under somewhat duress for one (Dean) and partial information for the other (Sam). And that manifested in "Fallen Idols" as understandable resentment from Dean ("I'm not ready to be working this closely with Sam right now. I can't even trust him not to say "yes.") and equally understandable confusion for Sam ("What the heck is going on? What happened to giving me a chance here?") 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: My last rewatch I really noticed that both Sam and Dean seemed to fall back into a more parent/child relationship at the start of S5 than the adult brother/brother one they'd developed starting in S1 up until Dean went to Hell at the end of S3. So, for me, Dean's behavior in Fallen Idols is not indicative of how they've worked together as adults but indicative of how they most likely operated when they were kids when Dean was left in charge of Sam and the responsibility fell on Dean if things went wrong. Dean seems to be acting like it's his responsibility to clean up his kid's mess while Sam, at first, seems to be standing by waiting for his punishment. By the time they get to Fallen Idols, Sam has decided he'd like to help clean up the mess, but Dean, still rightly pissed, isn't ready to let him and just wants him to go to his room and stay out of the way. So, IMO, what Sam is saying when he says Dean needs to let him grow up is: Dean was going to have to let Sam out of the house unsupervised again and Sam was going to have to make better decisions so as not to run out into traffic and cause another pile up. And, I think what he's saying about how Ruby made him feel strong wasn't Sam saying it was Dean's fault that he ran out into traffic, but that maybe Dean could help him build a fence around the yard so it wouldn't be so easy for him to run out in traffic again. To me, Sam was just asking Dean to help him avoid falling into the same patterns because he didn't fully trust himself to do it on his own. Yes, this makes sense to me, and this would fit with my observations of what happened at the end of "The End" in that Dean maybe wasn't ready to actually give Sam the benefit of the doubt, but as you said would rather Sam have just stayed out of the way so as to not cause trouble as you put it. And with a little bit of "I'd rather not be dealing with this right now, but I don't have a choice" added on. 2 hours ago, ILoveReading said: It came across to me that we were supposed to see Sam as brave for going into the cage, not "wrong." Those things aren't mutually exclusive though, and that was my point. Sam's arc here was not just positive, there were also negatives. Dean on the other hand got an arc where he helps Sam, he helps Castiel, and he helps God to save the world while cleaning up Sam's mess. How much more positive could a story arc get? My point mainly was that I didn't understand how somehow this was seen as such a negative thing over all. Because for me, compared to Sam's story, Dean came out looking much more positively. 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: Even in Sam's wrongness there was good for Sam that came out of it. He was allowed to face his greatest fear again and say no. I agree that that was positive, but as is usual in Sam's case, there generally has to be "bad" or "wrong" along with that good, and that a whole bunch of deaths - a couple 1000 actually - were then also attributed to him by God no less, just piled on more "wrong." 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: I thought it was strange because Sam never seemed to feel guilty at all for not looking for Dean in s8. For me that was part of Sam's character assassination that season, though I never understood the purpose or why Carver had to insist that it wasn't a mistake or not give Sam a way to explain fix it - even though it would have been so easy to do... which is why this fan can't help but see it as deliberate, since it would have been so easy to fix, but Carver didn't bother and in fact seemed to resist doing so. Edited July 3, 2017 by AwesomO4000 3 Link to comment
auntvi July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: For me that was part of Sam's character assassination that season, though I never understood the purpose or why Carver had to insist that it wasn't a mistake or not give Sam a way to explain fix it - even though it would have been so easy to do... which is why this fan can't help but see it as deliberate, since it would have been so easy to fix, but Carver didn't bother and in fact seemed to resist doing so. The character assassination doesn't make sense to me. If the idea was to break Sam's down, I don't see any rebuilding him in S.9. 3 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: As for Sam-positive episodes, I would prefer for them to not belittle Dean in the process. There was no reason Dean had to come across super-pathetic in the werewolf episode where Sam is basically Superman. And the "Dean needs to accept his guilt for not being there for Sam" when he was a child message as Speight so charmingly put it? No need for that either. Even though I don't agree that this is what the show was doing*, even if it was so, at least it happened in a one-off episode. Sam often gets the "belittling" so Dean looks good in the mytharc episodes, often the finale. For example, the Gadreel incident. In showing Dean was right all along, the writers made Gadreel - the being that screwed with Sam's head, read his innermost private thoughts and used them against him, and killed people with his body against his will - be turned sympathetic, had Sam call him a real friend (how pathetic is that for Sam?), redeemed him, and then gave him a more important part in stopping the apocalypse than Sam. Then added the indignity of making Sam have lied about his assertion that he wouldn't save Dean against his wishes under the same circumstances, actually showing Sam to be a hypocrite by having him actually trying to save Dean like he said he wouldn't, and having Sam fail at saving Dean anyway. (So not only a hypocrite, but one who fails at it). For me, there was little to nothing in that that was not belittling to Sam in the writers' quest to show how right Dean was. I mean, you've got to admit that's pretty bad ; ). (I have to smile about it, because writing it out like this it just sounds so ridiculous and pathetic to have a character do these things.) So for me, like "Swan Song" is your "trumps everything else" in terms of heroic ending for the show - the above is mine for belittling. No belittling Dean has faced to supposedly prop Sam - not even your interpretation of "Swan Song" - could be worse than the above one for me. In my opinion, this would be like Dean having to call Ruby a friend - and mean it - and then having Ruby actually turn out to be good and help to save the world. There are some other examples, but as I said - this one is more than enough, in my opinion. * If I was going to give you one of these, it would be the werewolf episode over "Just My Imagination," because in that episode, Dean was praised for his taking care of Sam (By Sully - Sam has already told Dean this many times, so it didn't need repeating), and was shown to do so by the episode events, and Richard Speight is not the writer or even the show runner, so in my opinion, his opinion does not count nor override what I saw in the episode. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I'm not sure, because nothing Dean saw in the alternate universe should have given Dean confidence in what Sam was going to do. Even within his trip to that universe he angrily was questioning why Sam would say "yes." I have generally been under the impression that Dean's "wes" were more "Is" as in "I am all you've got" and "I keep you human" with a smaller side of "we." Dean was even apologizing - which was tactical, but otherwise to me made less sense. Especially telling for me was Dean's hesitant "I don't know. I'm whatever I need to be." Kind of an odd thing to say if he was going into the situation confident bout it, but very convincing if he didn't want Sam out on his own. That was for me an indication that this was Dean "compromising" even though he wasn't ready to, because he didn't actually have confidence in Sam, but felt that he had to come back and watch out for him. So Dean's conclusion of what Zachariah showed him, I think, was that he thought he'd been wrong about them splitting up, but that was because he thought he needed to keep an eye on Sam more than anything else. And there were subtle hints on this throughout the season, as you said, that Dean was maybe resentful of having to come back so soon, especially since at the beginning of "The End," Dean had been perfectly ready to cut ties with Sam completely. So rather than seeing Dean's behavior as a 180, I thought it was a reflection that Dean actually wasn't that confident from the beginning and maybe didn't want to come back yet, but didn't trust Sam to be on his own. But I think Sam interpreted it as you had, that Dean was ready to give Sam a chance to be trusted again. So - mixed messages from the beginning. Of course, I could be completely wrong in my interpretation, but this is what I'd seen it as from the beginning. And so in that context, for me, both Dean's behavior in "Fallen Idols" and Sam's confusion about it were understandable and made sense, since they had entered back into their "partnership" under somewhat duress for one (Dean) and partial information for the other (Sam). And that manifested in "Fallen Idols" as understandable resentment from Dean ("I'm not ready to be working this closely with Sam right now. I can't even trust him not to say "yes.") and equally understandable confusion for Sam ("What the heck is going on? What happened to giving me a chance here?") I thought everything Dean said to Sam was out of Dean being as clear as he could be that he was wrong. I sure never got any kind of conniving or manipulation from Dean when he called Sam. He watched his future self torturing people, sending his best friend as bait, into a meat grinder, which he called out his future self for doing. He even said "Oh, man. Something is broken in you. ". Dean was so relieved when he saw present!Cas that he said "Don't ever change" and then immediately readied to call Sam. Cas asked him what he was doing, to which Dean replied "What I should have done in the first place" which meant call Sam and work on a reconciliation which IMO was not to put Sam under his thumb but because they needed to keep each other human because Dean had seen himself become inhumane and Sam become Lucifer. Dean would be the dumbest, meanest and most stubborn numbnut on the planet if he wasn't sincere in trying to reconcile with Sam after all he saw in the alternate future. Dean was afraid of what he was going to become himself in The End which is why he said that kept EACH OTHER human. Not that Dean would keep Sam human or that his lesson was he needed to control Sam. That just doesn't comport for me with the way Dean and Sam played that reconciliation scene in The End, which is why IMO Fallen Idols is a total non-sensical about face for Dean. As an aside, I realize that Dean did tell Sam about his trip to the future at some point because he told Sam in Swan Song that Lucifer always said they would end up in Detroit no matter what choices they made. AFAIK, Lucifer never told Sam about Detroit in s5, that I can recall. But I could be forgetting something too. Quote DEAN: Sam, I got a bad feeling about this. SAM: Well, you'd be nuts to have a good feeling about it. DEAN: You know what I mean. Detroit. He always said he'd jump your bones in Detroit. Here we are. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Dean would be the dumbest, meanest and most stubborn numbnut on the planet if he wasn't sincere in trying to reconcile with Sam after all he saw in the alternate future. Dean was afraid of what he was going to become himself in The End which is why he said that kept EACH OTHER human. Not that Dean would keep Sam human or that his lesson was he needed to control Sam. That just doesn't comport for me with the way Dean and Sam played that reconciliation scene in The End, which is why IMO Fallen Idols is a total non-sensical about face for Dean. I didn't say that Dean wasn't afraid of what he saw in Future Dean. I agree he was, but I don't think that necessarily translates to him thinking that Sam would have prevented that, or at least I don't think he would conclude that Sam saying "yes" was not worse. I also don't think that keeping an eye on Sam means "putting Sam under his thumb" either. It could be supporting Sam and watching out for him... and it also doesn't mean that because Dean thought that that was theoretically necessary, that in practice Dean was actually ready to get back together with Sam just yet. As I said, at the beginning of the episode, Dean was ready to literally break from Sam permanently. As in "Bye Sam. Have a nice life." permanently. In my opinion, even with the experience Dean had, someone doesn't go from that to hunky dorey in a couple of days time. At least in my opinion anyway. I think it's perfectly reasonable that now faced with actual sam and working with him, Dean might not have a little buyers remorse and start wondering if maybe it was too soon. Maybe he started realizing it during their "The End" reconciliation, and that's why some of it seemed a little awkward to me, or maybe not. But I don't think it's unreasonable for Dean to have been having second thoughts later by "Fallen Idols." But I can also see your point as well, and since it's not clear, we can only speculate. 15 minutes ago, catrox14 said: As an aside, I realize that Dean did tell Sam about his trip to the future at some point because he told Sam in Swan Song that Lucifer always said they would end up in Detroit no matter what choices they made. AFAIK, Lucifer never told Sam about Detroit in s5, that I can recall. But I could be forgetting something too. I thought Lucifer mentioned it to Sam at some point... maybe it was in "Abandon All Hope?" But I don't think the above dialogue necessarily means that Dean had told Sam that previously... mainly for the reason someone here gave: that he wouldn't want Sam to question whether he would say "yes" or maybe feel that it was inevitable or something. I think it would be Dean-like for Dean not to want Sam to worry if Sam didn't have to. 4 hours ago, ILoveReading said: That was obvious when asked if Amara chose not to take Dean's soul or couldn't, and he said. "Let the audience decide." Carver had no idea and didn't care. That was an important plot point. It may be because I was a Buffy fan, but it was often standard operating procedure for Joss Whedon to not necessarily explain something - even important somethings intrinsic to the show like exactly how does being a vampire work - but rather leave it up to the audience to decide, so that doesn't necessarily bother me or mean to me that Carver didn't care per se. It is possible that he personally didn't necessarily think it through. As I said before, there were some really important plot points - arguably more important plot points - that I thought were skipped or glossed over for Sam's season 4 arc. But it might be less that the writers didn't care about the arc as a whole as they didn't want to be bothered with the stuff they weren't interested in - in Sam's case it appeared to be motive. Which apparently wasn't important for them to explain well as long as Sam went back to blood drinking again and furthered the plot, but it was to me. So for the writers, that Amara didn't was the important part. Though in my opinion, taking Dean's soul would "hurt" him, so theoretically Amara shouldn't be able to take it. However, it's also intriguing to think maybe Amara didn't want to take it, because she would be ruining that representative of Chuck's creation that Dean represented for her. So either would be a great answer, in my opinion, and I don't mind deciding for myself... My guess personally, based on the tone of the show that season would be the second one. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: As I said, at the beginning of the episode, Dean was ready to literally break from Sam permanently. As in "Bye Sam. Have a nice life." permanently. In my opinion, even with the experience Dean had, someone doesn't go from that to hunky dorey in a couple of days time. At least in my opinion anyway. I think it's perfectly reasonable that now faced with actual sam and working with him, Dean might not have a little buyers remorse and start wondering if maybe it was too soon. Maybe he started realizing it during their "The End" reconciliation, and that's why some of it seemed a little awkward to me, or maybe not. But I don't think it's unreasonable for Dean to have been having second thoughts later by "Fallen Idols." Yes he was ready to break from Sam and I think under normal circumstances someone would take more time to change their opinions. But Dean didn't go through a normal thing. He spent 3 days emersed in an alternate future and saw the worst of himself, his worst nightmare of Samifer, and his best friend going off the deep end and being killed because of choices Future!Dean was making. IMO, that kind of major event could precipitate a fast change in Dean's viewpoint because he saw what he believed would be his future. Dean would have been shown more and worse by Zachariah if Cas hadn't zapped him out of 2014 for their appointment. I can believe that kind of profound experience would change a person fast. I can see a case for Dean having some doubts, but I can't see him behaving like the asshole he was in Fallen Idols. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: I can see a case for Dean having some doubts, but I can't see him behaving like the asshole he was in Fallen Idols. You're right. I agree it was a bit over the top, and I understand your criticism. That's the way that I feel about Sam in the final scene from "The Purge." But then again, I'm generally not very fond of Julie Siege's episodes anyway. Of her six episodes, I really only like one, and one is passable - but the passable one is probably fairly disliked by many Dean fans, too, because it's "99 Problems" which introduced Dean running away to go see Lisa. The rest are pretty bad for me, including "Chris Angel..." and "Swap Meat" - where again, Dean is written very out of character in my opinion. 3 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said: We never really learn much at ComicCon, tho, do we? It's mostly jokes and larking about. But at least you'll get first dibs at seeing the Gag Reel @SueB It's funny, most summers at IMDb we'd be busy speculating (and getting it all wrong) about the cliffhanger in the finale. But season 12 ended with so much jammed in - it's really anyone's guess what they're going to run with for season 13. Where does one even begin? The one thing we do know - Crowley's toast. And it's the first season (including the ones I watched back to back while bingeing in the series, 1-9) that I am just not excited about. I wish I felt differently, but regardless of the reasons (and no, I absolutely don't buy that it's only either of the Js wanting more time off), with very few exceptions, S12 sucked.out.loud from this Dean fan's perspective, and with Dabb and the current crop of writers in charge, I don't anticipate that changing in S13. Based on the finale and the lead-up to it, I can at least guess/imagine a story line for Lucifer, Sproutifer, Cas, Sam, and even Mary. I have no clue what to expect for Dean except more of the same lame, or worse, non-existent excuses as to why he's not part of the action, especially once they start introducing the Wayward-pick-a-noun stuff. Maybe a terminal case of smiting sickness? The Impala gets cursed and Dean is stuck on the side of the road changing a flat tire every time a big bad needs killing? Edited July 3, 2017 by gonzosgirrl 6 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 On 7/2/2017 at 0:22 AM, auntvi said: I never gave up on Sam in seasons 4 & 5, I've almost always been sympathetic to him. I agree with you about season 9. Why would a writer do that to a character, i.e. it's always Sam's fault? Somewhere along the line the moral center switched from Sam to Dean, and it's only been in the past 2 seasons that Sam has been rehabilitated, somewhat. IMO I just wanted to say that Dean has been the moral center of the show going all the way back to 1.2 in Wendigo if you're looking for when that change happened. :) 3 Link to comment
catrox14 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 On 7/2/2017 at 7:16 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said: So, unlike you in your example with your older siblings, Sam did push back. It just didn't really make any difference until things came to a head. Just like in my example with my older brother: it wasn't my behavior that needed to change in the relationship. It was the way my older brother related to me. Because he had to realize that I wasn't 12 years old anymore, nor was I behaving like a 12 year old, and it took him dating a younger woman and seeing us side-by-side to finally get it. I missed your reply. I think there is a misunderstanding of my post. I never said I didn't push back on my siblings. I was speaking as the younger sibling who ,if I had not pushed back and spoke up for myself, had no room to complain if nothing ever changed because I didn't speak up, which I did. The results of my speaking up were mixed at best and that is a function of personalities probably more than birth order. Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 Quote but the passable one is probably fairly disliked by many Dean fans, too, because it's "99 Problems" Oddly enough, I like that one fine. Certainly much more than the 100th episode that came after it. And agreed on Julie Siege. Very meh on her writing. She was certainly one of those writers I said good riddance to when she left. 2 Link to comment
Katy M July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 Call me a bad fan, but I don't pay much attention to who writes or directs which episodes. So, all this talk about Julie Siege and how awful she was made me have to look up which episodes she wrote. 99 Problems is actually my least fave epi of season 5. Fallen Idols is my third least fave. But, I don't know that it's the writing. I think it's Paris HIlton. One of my two main problems with Swap Meat is also actor related. Get a taller guy or have less standing up scenes. My other problem was how could Dean not notice. I more or less liked Criss Angel. And I loved It's the Great Pumpkin and The Monster at the End of this Book. So, I guess my UO is apparently I don't hate Julie Siege's writing all that much, except for the one episode that everyone else seems to like. 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 30 minutes ago, Katy M said: Call me a bad fan, but I don't pay much attention to who writes or directs which episodes. Me neither. And I don't pay much attention to what the writers/directors/producers etc. say about characters or episodes, etc - because as far as the characters and story, I go by what I see on screen, not by what someone else told me I was supposed to see. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot July 3, 2017 Author Share July 3, 2017 38 minutes ago, Katy M said: Call me a bad fan, but I don't pay much attention to who writes or directs which episodes. So, all this talk about Julie Siege and how awful she was made me have to look up which episodes she wrote. 99 Problems is actually my least fave epi of season 5. Fallen Idols is my third least fave. But, I don't know that it's the writing. I think it's Paris HIlton. One of my two main problems with Swap Meat is also actor related. Get a taller guy or have less standing up scenes. My other problem was how could Dean not notice. I more or less liked Criss Angel. And I loved It's the Great Pumpkin and The Monster at the End of this Book. So, I guess my UO is apparently I don't hate Julie Siege's writing all that much, except for the one episode that everyone else seems to like. This is really the only show I've ever really paid all that much attention to the individual writers. It's also the first show I've watched where the writers interacted with the fans so much, though. But, I think, like all things, you have to keep that sort of stuff in perspective. Writing is only one part of the production. Not everything we see on screen is due to the writer. 5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Me neither. And I don't pay much attention to what the writers/directors/producers etc. say about characters or episodes, etc - because as far as the characters and story, I go by what I see on screen, not by what someone else told me I was supposed to see. I enjoy hearing the writers/producers/directors perspectives, but I don't take everything they say as fact. It's art and art is in the eye of the beholder, IMO. 4 Link to comment
Aeryn13 July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 At this point when writers/directors/producers open their mouth, they even lose benefit of the doubt with me. Because they normally go and confirm that the horrible message I saw within the episode was done on purpose. Like, wow, before that I may have believed you did it out of disinterest or incompetence. What Speight said about the Zanna episode after it aired was like that. I got it just fine from watching the episode itself but that it was actually the point? Let me say another good riddance to Jenny Klein. Was even more happy to see her go than Julie Siege. Of course then there is stuff like Dabb saying "the Winchesters will have to act like generals for the American hunters". Which of course was a blatantly false statement unless Dean has no identity anymore and Sam counts as plural Winchesters. When I read it, I already knew Sam would be majorly favoured in that set-up but even I was blindsided by how much. I figured Dean would at least technically be included. Ha. Just when I think they can`t sink any lower, than find another trench underneath the Marianna one. 5 Link to comment
Katy M July 3, 2017 Share July 3, 2017 3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Me neither. And I don't pay much attention to what the writers/directors/producers etc. say about characters or episodes, etc - because as far as the characters and story, I go by what I see on screen, not by what someone else told me I was supposed to see. Yep. As far as I'm concerned, if it didn't happen on screen (or at least talked about on screen), it didn't happen. 4 Link to comment
ILoveReading July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 Since Dean's story arcs tend to last 3 episodes, I figure his grief over Cas will end in the 3rd one with a boo hoo suck it up speech from a certain character who is back in that episode. This comic con just confirmed my feelings that Dabb has no use for the character of Dean Winchester. He didn't even try to pretend there was anything Dean related this season and he continues to strip all Dean related traits and had them off to Sam. Even if Dean is right and the Nephilm is evil it will still lead to a big damn hero moment for Sam/ big moments for Sam. But I suspect that Dean won't be right. The Nephilim will really just be this big misunderstood softie with a heart of gold and why can't big mean Dean just see that. Dean's instincts are the only thing he has left, so obviously those must go too. This has to be the worst comic con in terms of Dean related news. 6 Link to comment
Wayward Son July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Since Dean's story arcs tend to last 3 episodes, I figure his grief over Cas will end in the 3rd one with a boo hoo suck it up speech from a certain character who is back in that episode. This comic con just confirmed my feelings that Dabb has no use for the character of Dean Winchester. He didn't even try to pretend there was anything Dean related this season and he continues to strip all Dean related traits and had them off to Sam. Even if Dean is right and the Nephilm is evil it will still lead to a big damn hero moment for Sam/ big moments for Sam. But I suspect that Dean won't be right. The Nephilim will really just be this big misunderstood softie with a heart of gold and why can't big mean Dean just see that. Dean's instincts are the only thing he has left, so obviously those must go too. This has to be the worst comic con in terms of Dean related news. Eh, based on the shows history I fully expect S13 SDCC spoilers Spoiler That Dean's practical "shoot him in the face" approach will prove to be more accurate than Sam's "ever the optimist" attitude. It's a pretty stale formula of the show now that Dean must always be perfectly right and Sam and Castiel are idiots who eternally screw up. A legit question for you, or anyone else reading, Has Dean actually been the one in the wrong during a main character argument since season 2? The last time I can recall such a thing was Sam being right about Lenore and the vampire pack all the way back in season 2. Edited July 24, 2017 by Wayward Son 3 Link to comment
ILoveReading July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: Eh, based on the shows history I fully expect S13 SDCC spoilers Hide contents That Dean's practical "shoot him in the face" approach will prove to be more accurate than Sam's "ever the optimist" attitude. It's a pretty stale formula of the show now that Dean must always be perfectly right and Sam and Castiel are idiots who eternally screw up. A legit question for you, or anyone else reading, Has Dean actually been the one in the wrong during a main character argument since season 2? The last time I can recall such a thing was Sam being right about Lenore and the vampire pack all the way back in season 2. I tend to find that even when Sam is wrong, the show tends to validate him. Dabb has Sam on such a pedestal there is no way Jack won't end up being needed to save the world. So once again, even if Jack ends causing damage and chaos and Sam is wrong, he'll turn out to be right. Like I said, Dean's instincts are the only Dean trait left. Take those away and Dean might as well just be stunt hunter number 3, which is exactly how Dabb wrote him last year- Sam's got this, Sam's working on it, can you fix it Sam? Now, Sam is\ Spoiler The big brother/mentor, one who is all about family There is almost nothing left of Dean, so I'd like to at least keep one trait. Edited July 24, 2017 by ILoveReading 4 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Wayward Son said: Has Dean actually been the one in the wrong during a main character argument since season 2? The last time I can recall such a thing was Sam being right about Lenore and the vampire pack all the way back in season 2. This isn't actually a SDCC spoiler, so I didn't bother hiding it. :) Actually, I would kind of love to see a big damn "Dean is wrong" story. And not just a 'Dean is temporarily wrong or seems wrong, but in the long run it was really Sam that was wrong and an idiot and should have listened to Dean all along' like the BMOL story of S12. It'd be okay with me if they even 'switched' places for this to happen: such as they disagree, but Sam acquiesces to Dean's way, and then Dean turns out to be wrong. That would actually be a novel storyline for both guys as of of late, imo. 5 Link to comment
Myrelle July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: Since Dean's story arcs tend to last 3 episodes, I figure his grief over Cas will end in the 3rd one with a boo hoo suck it up speech from a certain character who is back in that episode. This comic con just confirmed my feelings that Dabb has no use for the character of Dean Winchester. He didn't even try to pretend there was anything Dean related this season and he continues to strip all Dean related traits and had them off to Sam. Even if Dean is right and the Nephilm is evil it will still lead to a big damn hero moment for Sam/ big moments for Sam. But I suspect that Dean won't be right. The Nephilim will really just be this big misunderstood softie with a heart of gold and why can't big mean Dean just see that. Dean's instincts are the only thing he has left, so obviously those must go too. This has to be the worst comic con in terms of Dean related news. IA with everything here, but where it concerns this show, Comic Con, just like seasons 11 and 12, was completely predictable, IMO. Samnatural is back in full force again after a short reprieve in the second half of S9, when for some reason they hatched a decent storyline for Dean. I'm beginning to think that that was probably contract time, though, and Jensen might have been balking at re-signing because of that lack(The CheerleaderDean remarks come to mind)-but I suspect that as soon as the ink on his new contract was dry, they went right back to their Samnatural mindset in the writers' room and this in spite of the overwhelming popularity of DemonDean that I saw everywhere that I went before they offed him after only three episodes. I will never understand why the showrunners and writers on this show want to write predominantly emo for JA when he has such great and incredible range, as an actor. over the years it has become my opinion that they do it mostly to hide the fact that his co-star has very little. At this point, and again IMO, they need Dean's reactions for the audience to actually feel the same for Sam because JP simply can't make that happen on his own. And that's also why JP fails in the support role on this show IMO-and it doesn't help that I can tell that he's just not as into the support role when he isn't written as "the star"/sole central character in a storyline. It's the the sole central character in any storyline or nothing at all AFAIC for Sam/JP where his own acting mindset in concerned, IMO, and so, in order to keep the gravy train rolling incompetence is rewarded in that way and always, eventually, will be on this show. And I further think that JA has given up on bucking that system and has decided to just do the best that he can with the crumbs he's being given, collect his paycheck, and be happy with that. He is clearly not an ambitious actor to me, otherwise he would have left sooner. The directing gigs likely helped, but as far as his acting career is concerned(and again IMO), if he re-signs again, then those in his own fandom(and possibly more than a few in the business, too), who don't want to see him as simply an extension of his friend, will finally have to admit that he's fine with being just and simply more of a support player for JP than anything else. And if they ever hoped for more for or from him, then they'll just have to get over it, because it's never going to happen on this show. Edited July 24, 2017 by Myrelle 3 Link to comment
Myrelle July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Actually, I would kind of love to see a big damn "Dean is wrong" story I think the MOC storyline more than qualifies in this regard. And it even fits in perfectly with the rest of this post. Sam admitted Dean needed to take on the Mark to stop Abaddon, but then the Darkness was released and the writers took every chance they could get to let us know that if Dean hadn't taken on the Mark and kicked over nest with Cain then that wouldn't have happened. How many times on the show was it stated that releasing the darkness AND Lucifer was the fault of all three protagonists on the show? And Dean started all of it with the MOC. IDK, sometimes I think that some in this fandom just can't get enough of Dean being wrong-not the other way around. And unfortunately, I think the showrunners and writers are amongst that subset of the fandom, too. Edited July 24, 2017 by Myrelle 5 Link to comment
ILoveReading July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Actually, I would kind of love to see a big damn "Dean is wrong" story. There was the Ezekiel/Gadreel story. Dean was wrong there too. According to the show he was wrong to resoul Sam. He was also wrong to object to Ruby and Sam's blood drinking. Because its not like Sam went to Ruby of his own free will. He did it because Dean made him feel bad and the blood drinking was really just her getting Sam ready to take on Lucifer. " Dean just needed to learn to love Sam more and accept his cool powers." (Direct quote from Kripke) Edited July 24, 2017 by ILoveReading 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son July 24, 2017 Share July 24, 2017 1 minute ago, ILoveReading said: There was the Ezekiel/Gadreel story. Dean was wrong there too. But the show didn't treat it like that. Ultimately, Ezekiel played a key role in saving the world and was referred to by Sam as a friend. Plus we had Sam take away any legitimacy to his arguments with the catch all "I lied". Any wrong doing on Dean's part was quickly swept under the carpet and forgotten. We don't hear people talk about it years later the way there is still occasional references to Sam freeing Lucifer. 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.