“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[CluelessDrifter]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

May I ask what criteria you are using for 'direct reference'?  I searched the transcripts and couldn't find any reference to Lucifer, Hell (as pertains to Sam), mind (as again pertains to Sam's mind) or hallucination in Slash Fiction, The Mentalists, Death's Door, Adventures in Babysitting (Dean asks Sam how he's doing at the end, but then Sam also asks Dean how he's doing.  So...that may or may not be in context of the hallucinations.  You count it.  I don't.)

Just to put accurate numbers to it.  :)  So, by my count that makes 10/23 episodes with direct references (even though Defending Your Life, Shut Up Dr. Phil, Season 7, Time for a Wedding, only had one line each, which hardly makes the entire plot about Sam's hallucinations.) = approximately 43%.  Still less than half. 

Yeah, sure.  The Mentalists: Dean: And I woulda told you, eventually, once I knew that this whole "waving a gun at Satan" thing was a one-time show. I think it's reasonable to want to know that you're off the friggin' high dive, Sam. You almost got us both killed, so you can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch.

Death's Door: Sam is seen clutching the scar on his hand to remind him of what is real and what it isn't.  From the transcript: DEAN walks away. He pauses at the door and looks at SAM, then leaves. SAM sits down in a chair and presses on the palm he injured in 7.01 Meet the New Boss.

Slash Fiction: LEVIATHAN!DEAN:
Dean... thinks you're nutballs. He thinks you're off your game.

[AwesomO4000]

57 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If it is about Dean "shining" in an ep. Even Season 12 had one in Regarding Dean, a very pleasant surprise IMO. But there is no episode of Season 11 I can legitimately make that claim. 

Well, I don't know what to say. If "Baby" doesn't count, where Dean pretty much saved everybody, including Sam, after a brutal fight where he had to come back from difficult odds and take out two monsters using both his fighting ability and his intelligence/wit doesn't count as "shining," I'm not exactly sure what does. It was made clear that if not for Dean, the family and Sam would've been turned into monsters with more turning to come.

And I contend the same about "Safe House." If I remember correctly, Dean was very much a part of solving that mystery and he took on the most difficult part of the dual symbol making - and did it faster than Sam did under more difficult circumstances. (Side note: I didn't mind that, especially since Dean has been shown to have a proficiency for remembering and visualizing symbols, so I thought that detail was a nice nod to that fact.)

And "Love Hurts" was Dean centric and he was the one to save the person of the week and it was about his connection to Amara and how he was dealing with that.

I agree that season 11 was not like seasons 9 and 10 where Dean had both the mytharc plot and a good portion of the MOTW episodes also, and a majority of the killing also, but that's why I consider season 11 much more balanced for both brothers. Take season 9 for example. Sam had one episode in the beginning - that was, in the end, as much about Dean's and Gadreel's arc as it was Sam's, imo - and one episode near the end that was partially about him learning that Dean was right. That's pretty much it. Dean had the MoC arc - which encompassed a lot of the episodes - and quite a few of the MOTW episodes: "Dog Dean Afternoon," "Bad Boys," and "Rock and a Hard Place." I would count "Captives" but because of the first blade connection, it should likely be considered mytharc. In my opinion, that was a much less balanced season than season 11 was. And except for emotional stuff, I would say season 10 was also.

[Aeryn13]

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Take season 9 for example. Sam had one episode in the beginning - that was, in the end, as much about Dean's and Gadreel's arc as it was Sam's, imo - and one episode near the end that was partially about him learning that Dean was right. 

The good part of Season 9 starts for me with First Born which is episode 14. Before that I certainly don`t think Dean had a strong showing. Like in the mid-Season Opener, that was another episode where the character seriously didn`t need to be there for the plot. He was just so awkwardly inserted into it.

And coming on the heels of Season 8.B where I wanted to claw my eyes out in despair and - before seeing Season 12 - thought that it couldn`t be worse for the character, Season 9.A was certainly nothing to garner my goodwill. 

That leaves Season 9.B and Season 10, one and a half Season where I thought the character was featured reasonably well. I mean you still had stuff like the trailer for the mid-Season Finale of Season 10 promoting Dean and the MOC and the actual episode being all about Claire. So, not everything was rosy back then either.

As for Season 11 I don`t know what to tell you, I just didn`t like the MOTW and they just didn`t do it for me. I can`t help it if the Baby episode never made me feel much beyond "okay, shrug". 

I count the mytharc for Dean - as badly handled as it was - but the MOTW were in no way balanced in my eyes.

So far the best MOTW Dean presence in the show was in Season 2. For me that is the pinnacle. Never reached again.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Diane]

After having read all of the most recent posts it seems that unless they change the show to the Dean show instead of the show about 2 brothers, some fans will never be happy.  I just don't see them changing the format of the show that much and I don't want them too.  I enjoy the fact that the show is about both Sam and Dean. I am not sure how the writers can ever make everyone happy, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Maybe I'm not following this thread correctly. I don't think anyone is denying that Sam's time in hell has been addressed. What I'm arguing is that Dean's time in hell has also been addressed.  You may not like how that was done, but it was done. I guess my question is why your dislike of how Dean's time in hell was handled has anything to do with Sam? 

It doesn't, and this now-circular-or-at-least-oval argument didn't start out as that. It morphed. I don't speak for anyone else except myself, and I the things I want for Dean have nothing to do with Sam. I don't want 'instead of', I want in addition to, or, you know, at all. Dean's time in Hell has been largely forgotten since S5.  I used the amount of time spent on Sam's issues as comparison, and on to the merry-go-round we hopped. If one doesn't see the (to me) obvious disparity in how the Winchester's time in Hell has been addressed post S5, then it's not up to me to make them see it.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, Diane said:

After having read all of the most recent posts it seems that unless they change the show to the Dean show instead of the show about 2 brothers, some fans will never be happy.  I just don't see them changing the format of the show that much and I don't want them too.  I enjoy the fact that the show is about both Sam and Dean. I am not sure how the writers can ever make everyone happy, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

"Dean, you okay? It has to suck for you, too, walking back into Hell."

Dean wouldn't have even had to reply beyond a Dean-shrug, yeah well...  and voila. Nobody's damned, no soap opera moments and there's acknowledgement. It's just not that hard. And that's what makes the story about two brothers, not ignoring the history of one of them altogether. Same with the Hellhounds in S12. Dean was killed by them and they couldn't even include it in the previouslies, never mind have him react to them in the actual episode, or, Chuck forbid, let him actually be the one to finally kill one of them.

Edited June 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

56 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, sure.  The Mentalists: Dean: And I woulda told you, eventually, once I knew that this whole "waving a gun at Satan" thing was a one-time show. I think it's reasonable to want to know that you're off the friggin' high dive, Sam. You almost got us both killed, so you can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch.

Death's Door: Sam is seen clutching the scar on his hand to remind him of what is real and what it isn't.  From the transcript: DEAN walks away. He pauses at the door and looks at SAM, then leaves. SAM sits down in a chair and presses on the palm he injured in 7.01 Meet the New Boss.

Slash Fiction: LEVIATHAN!DEAN:
Dean... thinks you're nutballs. He thinks you're off your game.

Thanks for answering.  I don't consider what Leviathan!dean said as absolutely pertaining to the hallucinations, much like Adventures in Babysitting.  That could have been said in just about any Season.  :)  So, even adding in the first two=12/23eps=52%.  Still not 2/3.  And like I said, there are three episodes with one throw-away line (kind of like "You heard from mom this week?").  

But I think the context of this 'count' started with the wish that the hell mentions happened without anyone getting thrown under the bus.  (As I said, Sam usually does.)  There's also this: 

Quote

As to S7, the first 2/3 of the season was about Sam suffering for his time in Hell with Lucifer and everyone around him was pretty darn sympathetic as I recall, with Dean leading it.

I don't consider that reference to Sam's hell time in The Mentalists pretty darn sympathetic or that he wasn't getting thrown under the bus.  Ymmv.

Edited June 7, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
I should be more careful when I type. My grammar made no sense.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

After having read all of the most recent posts it seems that unless they change the show to the Dean show instead of the show about 2 brothers, some fans will never be happy. 

See, for you it is a show about two brothers and for me that hasn`t been the case at all in 12.B. The first part of the Season, okay, but not the second half. Maybe if the first half would have been as Dean-centric as the second half was Sam-centric. Then the Season overall might feel evened out but not as it was.

I`m not happy with table scraps for Dean and that is not gonna make it a show "about both" to me. Wanting some things for Dean as well, at least that he retains his old skills and areas of expertise and Sam isn`t playing both Sam and Dean simultenaously is IMO not the same as wanting the Dean-show. That is not wanting the Sam-show. Which I readily admit I don`t. 

Three episodes I really liked this year:  

1) The hunter funeral.  Was that the Dean-show? Was it a Sam-bashing or Sam-sidelining episode? Because I`d say that one was actually balanced with even giving some neat moments to guest stars.  

2) The Lily Sunder episode.  Was that the Dean-show? It was Cas-centric with both brothers playing support and the major focus of the ep going to the guest star.

3) Regarding Dean.  Fine, that is Dean-centric, I`m not gonna deny that.

But IMO that`s 1 out of 3. And the overall sample is more wide-spread than just Dean-eps.  

[SueB]

Edited June 7, 2017 by SueB
can't figure out how to imbed a gif

[CluelessDrifter]

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thanks for answering.  I don't consider what Leviathan!dean said as absolutely pertaining to the hallucinations, much like Adventures in Babysitting.  That could have been said in just about any Season.  :)   

 

You can see it how you choose to see it, which is fine, but I think it was in reference to his hallucinations, because the Leviathan!Dean then asked Sam why Dean hadn't told him about killing Amy.  

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, even adding in the first two=12/23eps=52%.  Still not 2/3.  And like I said, there are three episodes with one throw-away line (kind of like "You heard from mom this week?").  

True.  I think I went through and had counted Adventures in Babysitting Twice, so I brought it down to 13/23, which makes it 56%.  Add in the two I think could be considered blanket concern for Sam's mental health, and you get 15/23, which is 65%.  @gonzosgirrl's point remains that whether or not it was brought up every episode or every couple of episodes, it still covered 17/23 (74%) episodes in spirit, much like the 'Have you heard from Mom this week,' through lines you mentioned, which serve to remind you of a major theme throughout the season.  You could discard those, but they're there to tie the season together and remind you of something important in the storyline.  It'd be like discarding every time the leviathan or Dick Roman were mentioned and saying they weren't a major part of the season just because the episodes where they're not featured, only have a line or two to remind us they're out there.

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But I think the context of this 'count' started with the wish that the hell mentions happened without anyone getting thrown under the bus.  (As I said, Sam usually does.)  There's also this: 

I don't consider that reference to Sam's hell time in The Mentalists pretty darn sympathetic or that he wasn't getting thrown under the bus.  Ymmv.

But I thought the 'count' started, because the 2/3 was picked up on as being hyperbolic and the focus shifted onto this:

22 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

My mistake then.  I misunderstood your abbreviation.  Still, doesn't change the truth of the rest of my comment that not every episode up to 17 of S7 had elements of Sam's hallucinations in the plot.  So to include them in saying that the hallucinations took 2/3 of the season is misleading. 

And if you really want to understand what some of the Dean fans are saying RE: 

18 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thank you.  That's what I don't understand.

Then we're going to be here for a while if we can't agree that Sam's hell-pain was dealt with over season 6 and a sizable portion of season 7, because we need somewhere to meet on common ground before we can take it from there.  

At the end of season 7 (after 7.17), it was thought that Sam's hell-pain had been dealt with by having Cas take it for Sam, but then it was brought up in season 11 again.  That time, Sam was actually able to confront it, defeat his real and metaphorical devils, and move forward this year with trying to find a way to stop Lucifer once again.  

While Dean's hell-pain was mentioned in season 4, it was at first done so with sympathy and then described as something that made him weak.  Then the one time Dean had a chance to face his demons, Sam came in and finished it for him, so it wasn't properly resolved even though Dean being weak continued to be brought up.  I think it was the long-term focus on Sam's hell-pain, bringing it up again for half the season last year, and the resolution of it that may have some Dean fans thinking that Dean's time in Hell was forgotten about, while Sam's wasn't, and that is how it pertains to Sam.  

Edited June 8, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Then we're going to be here for a while if we can't agree that Sam's hell-pain was dealt with over season 6 and a sizable portion of season 7, because we need somewhere to meet on common ground, so we can take it from there.

We've already been here quite awhile, haven't we?  :)  Actually, I do agree with that. (I don't remember S6 being part of the previous discussion, but then I just had to go get a cup of coffee because I was about to face plant into my keyboard.)  I took issue with the exaggeration which made it seem like Sam's hell pain was the sole focus of every single episode of S7.  Just like:

11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

bringing it up again for half the season last year,

Really?  "half a season last year"?  I'm weary and I'm not going to go count the episodes to see which ones had direct references - because I think that one throw away line  (which can technically be included in the 'count' as you've demonstrated) is not enough to justify that kind of exaggeration that Sam's hell-pain was 'brought up for half the season' as if that's all that was discussed in the episode when it wasn't really relevant to the plot most of the time anyway.   ymmv.

15 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 I think it was the long-term focus on Sam's hell-pain, bringing it up again for half the season last year, and the resolution of it that may have some Dean fans thinking that Dean's time in Hell was forgotten about, while Sam's wasn't, and that is how it pertains to Sam.  

I understand what you're saying about Dean's hell-time not getting a mention.  I really do.  I just don't think it not getting mentioned on the show particularly pertains to Sam (as if it's his fault), outside some kind of strange envy on behalf of Dean (which, I'll admit I don't understand at all) and I don't think it's a very good excuse to turn this all into a Sam vs. Dean thing.  

[Bessie]

13 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Could it not just be that Dean fans want a particular resolution to the story lines they're invested in the most, while Sam's story lines, ones they are less invested in do get resolved, not that they're envious on behalf of Dean?  

What kind of resolution are you looking for?  I mean Sam had a psychotic break and his psyche was healed supernaturally, a story which allowed for the return of Cas.  His rock was his brother, his reality was his brother and, in the end, he was only saved because of his brother. 

I know people think Dean is being portrayed as weak. Maybe the writers, through his lack of a breakdown, are showing how much stronger Dean is than Sam on a psychological level. He suffered, but dealt with it. He could take it, Sam couldn't and the only reason Sam isn't in a mental institution today is his brother. Would you really want Dean that dependent on Sam?  That weak?

Edited June 7, 2017 by Bessie

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, Bessie said:

What kind of resolution are you looking for?  I mean Sam had a psychotic break and his psyche was healed supernaturally, a story which allowed for the return of Cas.  His rock was his brother, his reality was his brother and, in the end, he was only saved because of his brother. 

I know people think Dean is being portrayed as weak. Maybe the writers, through his lack of a breakdown, are showing how much stronger Dean is than Sam on a psychological level. He suffered, but dealt with it. He could take it, Sam couldn't and the only reason Sam isn't in a mental institution today is his brother. Would you really want Dean that dependent on Sam?  That weak?

I agree with you. I think Dean has been shown to be the stronger of the two. When has it ever been in Dean's character to go on and on about his suffering.  It would be out of character for him to mention it or talk about it.  He has moved on and got over it like he always does. Of this is JMO.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Diane

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The good part of Season 9 starts for me with First Born which is episode 14. Before that I certainly don`t think Dean had a strong showing.

"First Born" was episode 11. And before that, Dean had at least 2 and arguably 3 MOTW episodes featuring him. I'm not saying for sure that they were "good" episodes (though one of them was one of the few episodes I liked in that season) but that is different from the episodes being Dean-leaning.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Like in the mid-Season Opener, that was another episode where the character seriously didn`t need to be there for the plot. He was just so awkwardly inserted into it.

The Mid season opener was "Road Trip." I guess miles vary, but I think it would've been kind of odd for Sam to find out about Gadreel without Dean even being there, since it was part of the plot that Dean had been the one dealing with Gadreel from the beginning.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I mean you still had stuff like the trailer for the mid-Season Finale of Season 10 promoting Dean and the MOC and the actual episode being all about Claire. So, not everything was rosy back then either.

Except for the whole part of that episode that was about Dean trying to find out information about the mark of Cain from Metatron, and the stuff about the first blade and Crowley, and the fact that Claire's vendetta was against Dean for stuff he might have done because of the mark (or because of plotonium related Sam and Cas stupidity, take your pick,) and Dean faced off with the bad guys and confronted Claire at the end of the episode. Well, the last part also had to do with Claire. But it seems to me that there was also a lot of mark of Cain stuff in that episode, too.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I count the mytharc for Dean - as badly handled as it was - but the MOTW were in no way balanced in my eyes.

For me balanced and liking something are two different things. I may not have liked season 4 very much (in retrospect), but that doesn't mean I don't think that it was a balanced season. In contrast, I mostly liked season 10 - better than 4 even in many respects - but I wouldn't call it balanced.

You may not have been impressed with "Baby" or "The Vessel" but that doesn't mean they weren't episodes featuring Dean or that Dean wasn't an important part in any of the other MOTW episodes that you might not have been impressed with. For me it wasn't like Sam got a huge amount of the MOTW episodes - he got 2 maybe 3 - so I'm just not seeing the big discrepancy, so I'll agree to disagree (strongly) on the balance thing, especially since I'm assuming you didn't like the Sam-leaning episodes either... so like and balance are different in my eyes.

And I personally liked the mytharc of season 11, but I'm weird in that I didn't think the mytharc for season 4 was all that well handled, but I realize I'm in the minority in that one. I'd rather have some minor details less explained and me put together those details into something that fits (season 11) than have too many details given that then don't make total sense to me whereas important details are left out (season 4, for me).

For me, I got what I needed to know from the writers in season 11: 1) Dean and Amara had a connection. 2) Amara and Dean couldn't hurt each other and even felt the pull to protect each other at times. 3) Just because there was that pull to protect each other didn't mean it couldn't sometimes be overcome (in that Dean was able to sometimes overcome the urge to protect and instead try to kill Amara... but see point #2). 4) Neither Amara nor Dean exactly understood the connection between them, but they wanted to understand, each for their own reason: Dean because he didn't want to be attracted and Amara because she wanted to know more about Chuck's creations. Plot point #2 was especially important, imo, because we saw Amara wanting to know more about Chuck's creations with other people, but she could never quite overcome the urge to kill them, suck out their souls, or both, so all that she could "learn" from them was what they could provide her as a part of her. I guess Rowena was an exception of sorts, but Amara was only using Rowena, and didn't seem to make a connection with her like she did with Dean.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So far the best MOTW Dean presence in the show was in Season 2. For me that is the pinnacle. Never reached again.

I agree season 2 was good in that regard, but it would probably come in second for me in terms of Dean presence, because Sam did a good bit of the MOTW saving in the first part of the season. For me, though you may find it boring, I would say that season 7 is Dean's strongest showing in terms of MOTW episodes, especially 7B. Starting with "Plucky Pennywhistle's..." there's a run of about 5 mostly MOTW episodes (even though there are leviathans, I count "Out With the Old" mostly as a MOTW episode, since there is also a separate case) where Dean has a very strong showing, in my opinion: either solving the case, killing the monster, or both. Before those episodes, even though Sam kills Chronos, Dean also has a strong showing in "Time After Time..." in helping to figure out the case, and he saves Sam in "Adventures in Babysitting". For me, the only really questionable MOTW episode showings for Dean in season 7 would be "The Slice Girls" and "Shut Up, Dr Phil," but both brothers were pretty inept in that second episode, so... basically I thought season 7 was pretty strong for Dean MOTW wise... and strong for MOTW episodes in general. For me, that was somewhat of a good consequence of season 7 having leviathans as the season long monster and some stuff happening offscreen: more chances to do MOTW episodes with small mytharc tie ins. I realize that that's my opinion on that one.

[CluelessDrifter]

14 hours ago, Bessie said:

What kind of resolution are you looking for?  I mean Sam had a psychotic break and his psyche was healed supernaturally, a story which allowed for the return of Cas.  His rock was his brother, his reality was his brother and, in the end, he was only saved because of his brother. 

I know people think Dean is being portrayed as weak. Maybe the writers, through his lack of a breakdown, are showing how much stronger Dean is than Sam on a psychological level. He suffered, but dealt with it. He could take it, Sam couldn't and the only reason Sam isn't in a mental institution today is his brother. Would you really want Dean that dependent on Sam?  That weak?

I don't want it resolved now, because I can't see any way for it to be resolved at this point (It's been too long), but then I didn't think there was a way to resolve Sam's Hell issues years after the fact.  It was dropped and then picked back up again with Sam, so who knows, but I tend to think that ship has sailed.

Since I don't see a way to resolve him being both tortured and the torturer at this point, what I wouldn't mind as a resolution might be Dean being able to kill a hell hound, because I think that would go a long way in having him confront/face going to Hell, even though it wouldn't deal with him being in Hell.  (Now that I've thought about it, in one way or another, Dean's had problems with/seemed to be scared of dogs ever since he was killed by hell hounds, or he did until DDA, so something like, instead of having Dean check out a poodle, maybe they could have put more focus on Dean being hesitant around the Colonel on Dog Dean Afternoon, have him say at some point why he doesn't necessarily want to work with the dog (like, 'Hey, hellhounds?' would've been more than enough), and then have him be okay with Colonel by the end.  That would've been something until Dean got a chance to face down a hellhound in a later episode). 

When I said Dean was described as weak, I was talking about in Season 4 both before and after On the Head of a Pin.  Now?  I don't think Dean's being portrayed as weak, but I did think there was a noticeable difference in Sam and Dean in every episode they worked knowingly with the BMoL or with BMoL tech.  Sam thrived going all the way back to LOTUS, and Dean just didn't really.  I could live with it, because I thought there was a reason for it.  I just wasn't expecting it to be that Sam does best when he's following someone else and Dean doesn't, which is how I had to interpret it after Sam's admission in WWA (and I don't see Dean becoming a follower next year either, incidentally, as he went his own way when Sam lead the others on the raid of the BMoL bunker).  I'll cling to that belief until the start of next season when they find a way to say I'm wrong in the show, and I'll try to find something else that I can use to explain Dean's storyline.  Now the overall writing for the season, I have massive issues with across the board, but that's not really a Sam vs. Dean thing, and if we were talking about this this time last year, I would've been discussing how much I didn't like the Dean/Amara story line.

Edited June 8, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[Aeryn13]

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When has it ever been in Dean's character to go on and on about his suffering.  It would be out of character for him to mention it or talk about it.  He has moved on and got over it like he always does.

Dean talking about it himself is not the only way something can be referenced. Sam`s previous plots don`t always get brought up solely by Sam. In fact, often it is Dean. In a scene like Dean talking to Mary, he manages to bring up what happened to Sam.

Is the opposite truly so out there? Is Dean of so little consequence that no other character, including Sam, can ever even in passing reference a previous Dean-plot? Or the writer find some clever way to perhaps bring it up some other way? Right now I`m pretty convinced that at least half the writers seriously have no idea that Dean ever did go to hell. 

Dean is a character beyond being Sam`s brother. He doesn`t have the variety of supernatural plots Sam had but he still has something of a history there which I sometimes expect to be referenced. At this point someone could be ripped to shreds by hellhounds right next to Dean and you would never get any inkling why that would be significant for him specifically. Which is ridiculous.  

Quote

"First Born" was episode 11.

You are right. I was getting it mixed up with Executioner`s Song which was ep 14 of the next Season. That said, ep 11 is still the halfway point so I stand by 11.A being a wash for me. 

Quote

The Mid season opener was "Road Trip." I guess miles vary, but I think it would've been kind of odd for Sam to find out about Gadreel without Dean even being there, since it was part of the plot that Dean had been the one dealing with Gadreel from the beginning.

I remember watching it and thinking "jeez, again they are cutting away from a scene that drives the plot along to an awkward insert of Dean having no purpose, who edited that crap?"  

Quote

Except for the whole part of that episode that was about Dean trying to find out information about the mark of Cain from Metatron, and the stuff about the first blade and Crowley, and the fact that Claire's vendetta was against Dean for stuff he might have done because of the mark (or because of plotonium related Sam and Cas stupidity, take your pick,) and Dean faced off with the bad guys and confronted Claire at the end of the episode. Well, the last part also had to do with Claire. But it seems to me that there was also a lot of mark of Cain stuff in that episode, too.

Sure there was some stuff about the MOC but the main thrust of the episode was IMO Claire. Which, fucking thanks for nothing, show. It was like episode 100 where I had been previously reading some interview on how it would delve into Dean`s connection with Michael and then got to the epic disappointment of Point of No Return. 

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 I'd rather have some minor details less explained and me put together those details into something that fits (season 11) 

That`s the thing. For me those weren`t just minor details. I was missing at least half of the plot being fleshed out. And it showed a lack of care and interest for me.

Like the scene where Amara couldn`t or wouldn`t suck out Dean`s soul. The writers being all "whatever, you can make of that what you will" later in an interview. Whereas I expect such things to be clues fleshed out later. And if they aren`t and that`s the attitude, thanks for nothing. I felt they put more care into the red herring with the God "visions".

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Dean also has a strong showing in "Time After Time..." in helping to figure out the case, and he saves Sam in "Adventures in Babysitting".

Wasn`t Adventures in Babysitting the one where in the end Dean completely freezes up and the girl has to save herself? Because I consider that the antithesis of a strong showing for the character. That was horrible. Other than that I can`t say too much about Season 7 because other than the Amy Pond annoyance the Season bores me so much I can`t remember much of it.

But Dean didn`t particularly stand out in it for me whereas Season 2 still paints a vivid picture in my mind. So Sam having sizeable contributions in the MOTWs apparently must not have detracted from my enjoyment of it. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I'm not going to speak for all Dean fans, but I don't need Dean to even be the one that goes on and on about his suffering. It can be addressed in the narrative by other characters.  It's not as satisfying as Dean doing it but it's SOMETHING. It's a crumb I will gladly take. 

That said Dean is often chastised in the text by other characters and by segments of fandom for his behaviors and attitudes; that he refuses to express and/or llies about his emotions and feelings; that he's repressed (even though I disagree with some of that reading of Dean but that's a discussion for another time). At any rate that seems to be the conventional wisdom about Dean, so for Dean's own sake he must grow and change and it's hailed as 'character growth' and a major breakthrough when he does talk at long last, like his monologue to Mary in 12.22, that he hated her etc etc.

Yet for some reason that I don't understand, that forward progress, that character growth of Dean expressing his true feelings and thoughts and opinions, seems to be acceptable only up to a point. Why is that? Why is Dean talking about his pain, his suffering OOC instead of it being more growth?

Seems to me that somehow Dean being vocal about his own needs is threatening in some way but I don't know why.  It's so weird!

Edited June 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Bessie]

13 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

When I said Dean was described as weak, I was talking about in Season 4 both before and after On the Head of a Pin.

Thanks for the reply!  I didn't mean to imply "you" as in you, @CluelessDrifter, but a more general comment on the board and people feeling Dean is being portrayed as weak. 

I'd be cool with a hellhound kill for Dean, but if I had my druthers, I'd like to see the return of Alistair. 

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me that somehow Dean being vocal about his own needs is threatening in some way but I don't know why.  It's so weird!

Not to me. I love vocal Dean! But he does have a history of not sharing his feelings on his own suffering. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Bessie

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

It'd be like discarding every time the leviathan or Dick Roman were mentioned and saying they weren't a major part of the season just because the episode where they're mentioned doesn't feature them.

I've actually seen this argument when I mention that one of Dean's arcs in season 7 was his want for revenge against Dick Roman and that Frank was his tie to keeping tabs on Dick Roman, showing that that plot was ongoing. I agree with you that the mentions do have meaning, though degree is also important. One line or two is different than a whole scene, for example, but that's just degree and subjective, I realize.

I also agree that the affects for Sam and his time in hell have gotten more focus than Dean's, though I'm not necessarily sure whether this is a good or bad thing, myself. At least when this is the focus, though, they aren't making Sam act like an ass or start an apocalypse in order to move the plot along, so hey... bright side I guess.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

Not to me. I love vocal Dean! But he does have a history of not sharing his feelings on his own suffering. 

He does have that history but it's not 100% always that way at all. When he doesn't share it's remarked upon as bad but then when he does it's remarked upon as good but don't share too much or speak too strongly for himself.

11 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'd be cool with a hellhound kill for Dean, but if I had my druthers, I'd like to see the return of Alistair.

Man, I would LOVE a return of Alastair. Let Dean take him out once and for all. OHHH maybe there is an AU Alistair played by Christopher Heyerdahl.  Damn, that would be great.

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

I've actually seen this argument when I mention that one of Dean's arcs in season 7 was his want for revenge against Dick Roman and that Frank was his tie to keeping tabs on Dick Roman, showing that that plot was ongoing. 

Ah, but not from me.  ; )

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I've actually seen this argument when I mention that one of Dean's arcs in season 7 was his want for revenge against Dick Roman and that Frank was his tie to keeping tabs on Dick Roman, showing that that plot was ongoing.

Probably by me. :)  I just hold the weird interpretation that in Season 7 the main characters were actually the Leviathans because it was their plot and the Winchesters just randomely popped up into their story in really pointless ways. The kicker was when dead!Bobby had to explain the entire plot to them in the end, despite all the previous "investigating". Dean accomplished nothing there.

Sam had the side story with the Hellucinations which had nothing to do with the plot either but at least it was a bit of a supernatural side plot. Dean, you could cut the entirety of his scenes in Season 7 and IMO not lose anything.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's fine then.  Make it about that.  Not about Sam.  Because when the argument boils down to "But Saaaaammm got it" it does come off as some kind of fan girl envy, imo.

 

It's not envy to point out that they made the effort to explore Sam's Hell experience and at least show some kind of emotional response to going back to Hell/The Cage and they didn't for Dean. It's nearly impossible to talk about one without the other, but that doesn't mean 'Sam' is to blame. It's the writing and I would like an explanation for it. The only reason we got any indication of Dean's past at all is because Jensen threw some hesitation in there before passing through the doorway (right from his own mouth). Dean was killed by Hellhounds, but not only didn't they mention it, they had Sam kill it, and for the second time. Not 'Sam's fault, it's the writers. I'd like an explanation for it. Dean was supposed to be the one whose existence was tied to Michael, as Sam's was to Lucifer, yet when the opportunity to wield Michael's weapon came about, Sam used it, not Dean. Not Sam's fault, but.... I'd like an explanation for it. The title of this topic says it all - who the writers screwed over this week/season/ever. In these instances, it was Dean.

Edited June 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
grammar

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean accomplished nothing there.

Maybe not exactly true? Some of the investigating lead to them finding out about the drug everybody plot, and didn't some of it lead to them finding out about the tablet? I admit that I'm a bit fuzzy on that particular detail, because a lot was happening in those last episodes. I do know that Frank's computer lead to something, and the reason Frank was working on the leviathans was mostly because of Dean. And wasn't it the tablet that had how to kill the leviathan? I think I need a season 7 rewatch! (What can I say: season 7 was a lot about the MOTW episodes, Dean killing Dick Roman, and the multitude of fun extra characters. The rest of the details were just extras.)

Besides Sam researches a lot with it leading to nothing - like in season 3 when he was trying to find a way to get Dean out of his deal - that doesn't mean that it's not part of the plot arc. A whole episode in season 3 even centered around one of Sam's crazy research ideas that of course went nowhere, because no, Sam, turning Dean and yourself into crazy Frankenstein's monster like monsters is not a sound solution to the problem. Heh.

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean, you could cut the entirety of his scenes in Season 7 and IMO not lose anything.

In your opinion. I happened to enjoy Dean getting his revenge on Dick Roman.

And as I said above, I enjoyed a lot of the MOTW episodes. Some of my favorites in fact, because I really enjoyed the dark humor that I thought threaded throughout season 7. That kind of humor is right in my sweet spot. But one of my favorite episodes was also serious: "Repo Man." I liked the dark premise that maybe some people, in being saved or helped, might actually cause more harm later on down the line. That in maybe someone in trying to save someone or do the greater good, they might have to cause harm down the line, and where do you draw the line? Also Sam's consequences for "letting [Lucifer] in?" Was solving the case worth it? I just loved little episodes like that, even if they didn't have to do with the main plot. And Sam and Dean were necessary for all of those MOTW episodes.

[Reganne]

53 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Sam had the side story with the Hellucinations which had nothing to do with the plot either but at least it was a bit of a supernatural side plot. Dean, you could cut the entirety of his scenes in Season 7 and IMO not lose anything.  

Wasn't Dean the one who killed Dick Roman and ended the Laviathans?  He also went on a journey to find Cas and brought him back to fix Sam.  In slash fiction he took down both the Sam and Dean Laviathans.  I am sure that I am missing a lot more as those are the ones I can just come up with on the top of my head. I guess I just really don't understand this statement.  You would lose a lot without Dean in that season IMO.

[Aeryn13]

To be fair I also think you could cut the entirety of Sam`s scenes in Season 7 and wouldn`t lose anything. He just nominally had more of a supernatural sideplot even though that has nothing to do with the plot. Which was the case in Season 6 as well but that Season at least had the occasional episode I liked. 

The MOTW episodes in 7 didn`t offend me (for the most part) like in Season 11 and 12 so for that reason alone I would always put Season 7 higher than at least 12 (S11 has the mytharc to garner some interest from me).  I just consider S7 to be the "forgetabble" Season. And it might sound like damning with faint praise when I say that this is better than 8.B, 9.A or 12.B but it truly is for me. Being bored is still a lot more enjoyable than actively hating it.   

I just wouldn`t even think of the Season 7 MOTW as anything special, for Dean or otherwise. When it comes to that the show peaked in Season 2.   

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I just wouldn`t even think of the Season 7 MOTW as anything special, for Dean or otherwise.

I think @DittyDotDot hit on what it is I liked about the season 7 MOTW episodes in general over on the "The Girl Next Door" episode thread. She said it better than I, but basically her point was that it's not really that the plot or story arcs were any better than usual, but there was a lot of gray area in the episodes.  And there isn't usually a clear cut solution as to what is "right" either. The viewer can decide for themselves what they think. The episode I mentioned above is a good example. And so is "The Girl Next Door." While not a great episode (one of the few I'm not fond of) "Shut Up Dr. Phil" is another example. Should Sam and Dean have let the witches live just because one of them helped them? Even some of the protagonists in the episodes were sometimes in the gray area. Melanie in "The Mentalists" for example made her living pretending to be a psychic. We had the hunter with his daughter in "Adventures in Babysitting." And Mr. Fizzles - I mean he has to be iffy, right? ; ). There are a lot of fringe-type and/or gray characters I enjoyed also: Frank and George (the leviathan assistant), Guy the short-cut taking crossroads demon, Melanie, the fake psychic, Ranger Rick and Brandon, the disgruntled waiter... so many interesting characters for me. (In that I even remember them from one episode.) Those things and the dark humor - the kind where I think "oh, that's just so wrong... but okay, it's also funny" - I think are what I like about season 7 the most... well, and Dick Roman - and I know @catrox14 agrees with me on that one.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think are what I like about season 7 the most... well, and Dick Roman - and I know @catrox14 agrees with me on that one.

I LOVED Dick Roman. To this day, he's still my favorite actual villain on the show. No wishy washy whiny bratty behavior from Dick. He was MEAN and cold blooded and smarmy. James Patrick Stuart was terrific. I loved Frank. He was a lot of fun and wish he'd show up again. I loved Slash Fiction, Born Again Identity, The Mentalists, The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo. I thought the concept of bibbing was freaking hilarious. I loved Chet! He was great.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I LOVED Dick Roman. To this day, he's still my favorite actual villain on the show. No wishy washy whiny bratty behavior from Dick. He was MEAN and cold blooded and smarmy. James Patrick Stuart was terrific. I loved Frank. He was a lot of fun and wish he'd show up again. I loved Slash Fiction, Born Again Identity, The Mentalists, The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo. I thought the concept of bibbing was freaking hilarious. I loved Chet! He was great.

I also thought Dick Roman was a good villain - no gray areas, no growing affection for the dear little humans, etc. My only real beef with S7 was the show's inability to let a single opportunity for a dick joke go by. Well, that, and Sam's sideburns. Seriously, those things should've had their own credit.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My only real beef with S7 was the show's inability to let a single opportunity for a dick joke go by

Heh. And that is largely one reason why I liked s7 as much as I did. Because they never let a dick joke go by. LOL Because I'm 12

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I loved Chet! He was great.

I loved Chet, too. His interaction with Bobby in "Slash Fiction" is one of my favorite moments of the entire series.

In my head cannon, Chet's head is somewhere and one of these days he'll return... I'd love it if he went to Purgatory with the other leviathan and might get out one day.

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Heh. And that is largely one reason why I liked s7 as much as I did. Because they never let a dick joke go by. LOL Because I'm 12

Hee. My inner 12 year old agrees with you.

If you're gonna go for it, go ahead and commit to it I say! Season 7 humor for the win! And I definitely appreciated witty, not wet-blanket Sam in season 7. :: Grins like an idiot as she hears Sam in her head saying "Or are you strictly into Dick now?" :: I imagine Sam trying oh so hard not to crack himself up and thereby ruin his moment / big brother dig during that scene.

[catrox14]

Hey, Robin Williams always said "When in doubt, go for the dick joke."  If it's good enough for Robin...

[Diane]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I loved Chet, too. His interaction with Bobby in "Slash Fiction" is one of my favorite moments of the entire series.

In my head cannon, Chet's head is somewhere and one of these days he'll return... I'd love it if he went to Purgatory with the other leviathan and might get out one day.

Hee. My inner 12 year old agrees with you.

If you're gonna go for it, go ahead and commit to it I say! Season 7 humor for the win! And I definitely appreciated witty, not wet-blanket Sam in season 7. :: Grins like an idiot as she hears Sam in her head saying "Or are you strictly into Dick now?" :: I imagine Sam trying oh so hard not to crack himself up and thereby ruin his moment / big brother dig during that scene.

Season 7 is one of my favorite too, I am also apparently 12!

[mertensia]

Season 7: the episode with the greatcoats. I loved those things.  

Except for the Osiris episode this is one of my favorite seasons. Cursed porno mags (I still want to know what they made the guy do). Joyce and Georgie. "It's Kevin Tran. He's in Advanced Placement". The Alpha Vampire....

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Joyce and Georgie.

I'm having a stupid moment. I can't figure out what that's referencing.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm having a stupid moment. I can't figure out what that's referencing.

Joyce and Georgie were the goofy real estate leviathans in Out With The Old.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Joyce and Georgie were the goofy real estate leviathans in Out With The Old.

Of course.  Silly me.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/6/2017 at 9:42 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the point here was not Dean's very Dean-like speech, it was the lack of Mary actually acknowledging the Dean part of it. Her half-assed 'apology' was following immediately by justification (but.. but.. it was harrrrd) and then all she was worried about, even after all Dean said, was that Sam wouldn't be able to forgive her.

 

On 6/6/2017 at 9:51 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Mary already knew Dean forgave her because he said so, so yeah, at that moment she was still worried Sam wasn't going to be able to do the same thing. 

And, Mary's "but...but...but..." was also very Mary-like, IMO. If you ask me, they wrote to who the characters are.

(sorry for quoting myself - needed the context)

I was just browsing through old threads in the Season 1 forum and I think I know now why this scene bugged me so much. For me, it's almost a repeat of what happened in "Home" when Mary walks away from a visibly emotional Dean to apologize to Sam before going up in flames again. Much like this scene, I know why she does it, but that doesn't make me feel any less bad for Dean.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, mertensia said:

Season 7: the episode with the greatcoats. I loved those things.

Is that the one where they wore those terrific long wool overcoats?  I think Sam's was navy.  I recall snow on the ground, but I can't remember the episode.  Help?

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Is that the one where they wore those terrific long wool overcoats?  I think Sam's was navy.  I recall snow on the ground, but I can't remember the episode.  Help?

It's also Out With The Old...the one with the cursed objects and the kooky leviathan real estate agents.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's also Out With The Old...the one with the cursed objects and the kooky leviathan real estate agents.

Yes!  Thank you!  Those coats were ridiculously good looking on them.  

[SueB]

Adam Glass (former head writer) talks about SPN in this podcast.  Only for the die-hard:

http://nerdylegion.com/shows/acp/episode/ep-24-history-class-with-adam-glass

[ILoveReading]

Quote

It doesn't matter if it was ridiculous.  It doesn't matter if it never would have worked.  It doesn't matter if that's not even what didn't work in the end.  It was a Plan.  Which no one else had.  And SAM is the one who didn't give up and got everyone to rally to think of something-to try anything.  And that Anything?  That's what, in the end, did save the world.  

Then by this logic wasn't Dean the one that saved the world in s5.  Because when Sam couldn't wrestle control right away he seemed to stop fighting.  So Cas, Bobby and Sam to that extent all gave up.  Dean's strength of character that he wouldn't let Sam die alone, led him to the cemetery where him showing up turned the tide of that battle.

(Bringing response over from unpopular opinion thread as its more on topic here.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then by this logic wasn't Dean the one that saved the world in s5.  Because when Sam couldn't wrestle control right away he seemed to stop fighting.  So Cas, Bobby and Sam to that extent all gave up.  Dean's strength of character that he wouldn't let Sam die alone, led him to the cemetery where him showing up turned the tide of that battle.

(Bringing response over from unpopular opinion thread as its more on topic here.

Personally, I've always credited Dean as having an essential role in saving the world at the end of season five. I've always credited Sam for taking control and jumping into the cage and credited Dean for being the inspiration that helped motivate Sam into having that strength. I've always said IMO Sam and Dean saved the world together in Swan Song not just Sam. 

 

In my experience it is actually bitter Dean fans, who didn't like the way the story played out, that have the biggest tendency to dismiss his contribution here and dismiss him as "standing helplessly doing nothing" and utterly expandable. 

 

Also I want to be clear I'm not saying Sam alone saved the world from Amara. What I'm saying is his strength of character kickstarted the whole thing! From what the others said and did, if Sam hadn't been there they wouldn't have found the strength of will to form a plan and play their parts

 

((I'm also moving from unpopular opinion thread))

Edited June 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

if Sam hadn't been there they wouldn't have found the strength of will to form a plan and play their parts

Does that really matter, though?  Their plan didn't really do anything. That old lady in the park made Amara realize she loved her brother.  And, then maybe something Dean said, I guess.  I wasn't really crazy about this finale, so I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what happened.  So, I guess if Dean also nudged her towards Chuck, he wouldn't have been there if they hadn't had a plan, so OK I guess.   But, if Sam and Dean were ever irrelevant to a world saving, I've got to say, I think this is it. 

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Does that really matter, though?  Their plan didn't really do anything. That old lady in the park made Amara realize she loved her brother.  And, then maybe something Dean said, I guess.  I wasn't really crazy about this finale, so I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what happened.  So, I guess if Dean also nudged her towards Chuck, he wouldn't have been there if they hadn't had a plan, so OK I guess.   But, if Sam and Dean were ever irrelevant to a world saving, I've got to say, I think this is it. 

Personally, I think it was Dean who persuaded Amara to put aside her hate and admit that the thing she wanted most was to be reunited with her brother. 

Overall, the people I'd credit most with saving the world at the end of season 11 are Sam, Dean and the old lady in the park. I would credit Sam because he remotivated Dean and gave him the will needed to be with Amara at the right time to talk her down. I credit the old lady in the park with planting the seeds in Amara's heart that family forgive each other even when they treat you crappily, and I credit Dean for taking those seeds and getting Amara to push aside her anger and confess she wanted to be reunited with Chuck. I'll give a brief mention to Chuck, at least I think it was Chuck, for teleporting Dean to her.

 

Sadly, Cas, Crowley and Rowena didn't really do anything productive to aid the way things were resolved. They were just kinda there. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Does that really matter, though?  Their plan didn't really do anything. That old lady in the park made Amara realize she loved her brother.  And, then maybe something Dean said, I guess.  I wasn't really crazy about this finale, so I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what happened.  So, I guess if Dean also nudged her towards Chuck, he wouldn't have been there if they hadn't had a plan, so OK I guess.   But, if Sam and Dean were ever irrelevant to a world saving, I've got to say, I think this is it. 

I think the old lady in the park made Amara realize that Chuck's creation (earth) was beautiful.  Not that Amara loved her brother.  That was Dean who made her realize that.  

Imo - Sam and Dean are not irrelevant to a world saving when they kick-started the whole thing.  Without them, Chuck would have been content to 1. lock his sister back up, or if that failed, 2. allow earth to die (which meant everyone and everything), or finally 3. kill Amara while he also died in order to still keep earth alive.  But it was Sam and Dean who enabled the entire win-win scenario.  

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Does that really matter, though?  Their plan didn't really do anything. That old lady in the park made Amara realize she loved her brother.  And, then maybe something Dean said, I guess.  I wasn't really crazy about this finale, so I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what happened.  So, I guess if Dean also nudged her towards Chuck, he wouldn't have been there if they hadn't had a plan, so OK I guess.   But, if Sam and Dean were ever irrelevant to a world saving, I've got to say, I think this is it. 

Well, the bomb may not have been needed, ultimately, but I'm not sure Amara would have sought out Chuck to make amends if Dean hadn't encouraged her to do so.  So the world would have ended as both God and Amara were dying.  Sam's plan was to at least do something...not just sit back and wait for the world to implode, so he gets credit for that.

Or what Wayward Son and Rulerofallisurvey said!

Edited June 24, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Unpopular Opinions" thread:

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree those are really Dean "giving up."  Because I don't define that as giving up.

For example, you have two people learning to play the piano.  Both are struggling and having a really hard time.  One person says, "I quit, I'll never learn, I'm done."  So the instructor says, points out they had an easier time reading music this week.  So despite needing a pick me up they keep showing up for lessons.  Person 2, does the same thing but quits.  I don't consider the first scenario, giving up, just needing a little help to get over the hump. 

People doubt themselves and their abilities all the time, they might even think something is too hard, but unless they just completely walk away I don't define that as giving up.  There is nothing wrong with needing a helping hand. 

That's how I look at those scenarios.  Dean's one person, he tends to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders and somethings that weight catches up to him and problems look insurmountable.  He doesn't think he's strong enough.  So if he wants to step back and needs a pep talk, I don't consider that the same things as Dean giving up.  Even in Meet the New Boss.  When Bobby showed up with a lead, Dean jumped up to help.   It was his idea to trap death.  Croatoan he was willing to die with Sam, but he made sure all the others got out first.  What is... he went to help people before he realized he was trapped in with a fantasy land and he questioned whether what they did was worth it, but he still showed up on hunts.  He didn't give up.

Im drawing a blank on Mannequin 3 but if your referring to Lisa and Ben, then Dean felt he was a danger to them (that turned out to be right, as they used them to get to Dean), so him not thinking he's not good for him itsn't really giving up.

So that's why I say Dean never gives up, because he's willing to join the fight in the end, even if he needs a little help to get there.

For me, there are two time I would appy give up.  That is when Dean was in hell and Sam's plan to trade himself didn't work, I feel like he did give up on Dean.  He stopped trying to save Dean after that and just started following Ruby down the rabbit hole and season 8 when Sam just shut his phone off and walked away.

As I summarized over on the other thread, I agree with you after reassessing that I overstated on "What Is..." and "Mannequin 3..." Dean was more questioning and having a lot of doubts than giving up. I also agree with you on season 8 - and said as such. Sam did give up there. I, personally, thought it was out of character based on what he'd done in the past, but Sam did give up. Season 4, I don't agree as much. Sam did everything he could think of, including dangerous things like trying to open the devil's gate, to try to get Dean out. Back then they didn't know about angels or any other such potential avenues of getting people out.

However, I stand by my assessment of Dean giving up in "Meet the New Boss." I wasn't talking about earlier in the episode, because I agree that Dean came up with the plan to summon Death. I was talking about this part here:
 

Quote

Yeah, you know how I'm gonna deal? I'm gonna stuff my piehole, I'm gonna drink, and I'm gonna watch some Asian cartoon porn and act like the world's about to explode because it is.

That and the entire conversation leading up to that declaration - for me - was Dean giving up even if only momentarily. He only changed his mind because Sam went out anyway to try to reach Castiel and Castiel decided to show up.

So for me, both Sam and Dean have had their moments of giving up... and conversely their moments of picking the other up so to speak, because...

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then by this logic wasn't Dean the one that saved the world in s5.  Because when Sam couldn't wrestle control right away he seemed to stop fighting.  So Cas, Bobby and Sam to that extent all gave up.  Dean's strength of character that he wouldn't let Sam die alone, led him to the cemetery where him showing up turned the tide of that battle.

I agree with @Wayward Son on this one. I have always said that Dean was crucial to their win against Lucifer. And I agree that for a moment Cas and Bobby did give up, but I wouldn't say that Sam did. Lucifer himself said that he could feel Sam "scratching away" inside his head and Sam continued to fight Lucifer even if it didn't really do any good until Dean showed up. So just because Sam's efforts at first weren't successful, I wouldn't say that Sam gave up, because he did continue to fight Lucifer and quite angrily if I remember correctly.

I am also of the strange opinion that Lucifer gave up and/or was wounded by his pride as much as Sam overcame him in the end. My interpretation is that Lucifer, in his arrogance and pride, contributed a great deal to his own defeat. Because Lucifer was indignant and jealous that Michael would never love or stand up for him as much as Dean loved and stood up for Sam, that was why Sam was able to take over. And once Lucifer had been shocked out of control, much like the demon who created the antichrist couldn't take over Jesse's mother again, Lucifer couldn't get that control back. So for me, Dean being there for Sam no matter what was a crucial part of that defeat of Lucifer, and if Dean hadn't shown up, Lucifer would have either won or Michael would have killed Lucifer and damaged a good portion of the world as they knew it.

 

That was why in my original assessment of which brother I'd pick to save me in various situations, giving up or not wasn't even a factor in my assessment. That was brought into the discussion later on (in reference to Sam, I believe) and my propensity to defend Sam got me into the comparisons. Sorry about that.

[shang yiet]

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For me, there are two time I would appy give up.  That is when Dean was in hell and Sam's plan to trade himself didn't work, I feel like he did give up on Dean. 

Sam didn't give up. He just ran out of ideas and solutions. For a whole year before Dean went to hell, Sam was seeking a way to save Dean. A whole year. Sam also had to try to get Dean on board because Dean gave up. He was acting like he didn't care whether Sam saved him or not. If Rowena was around at that time with her easy magical tricks and solutions, Sam would have snapped up her offer no matter what.