“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[auntvi]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, Sam and Dean don't need the be the main focus of every single episode or involved in every single storyline for the show to still be about them. I'd rather have Sam and Dean in 15 tight and really good episodes than 23 unfocused and meandering episodes, myself.

That's what I've thought, but I don't know if the network would let the E.P.s do that?

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, auntvi said:

That's what I've thought, but I don't know if the network would let the E.P.s do that?

I doubt it! I'd be very surprised if we ever had an episode without Jared and/or Jensen in it.  

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, auntvi said:

That's what I've thought, but I don't know if the network would let the E.P.s do that?

Oh, I think the network would allow it if TPTB made a good case. That's the benefit of a show in it's 12th season, they're given a lot more latitude because they've proven themselves worthy of it. At this point, I think the network pretty much leaves them alone.

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I doubt it! I'd be very surprised if we ever had an episode without Jared and/or Jensen in it.  

To be clear, Jared and Jensen would still be in every episode, it's just that the focus wouldn't be on Sam and Dean in every episode, but another character. I'm saying they need to do a few Weekend at Bobby's type episodes per season. Sam and Dean were still in it, and it was still about Sam and Dean, but also about Bobby.

At the very least, I think they should do an episode like this for Cass. I think it would do wonders for his character to see what he actually does on a daily basis. The biggest problem with Cass currently is, IMO he doesn't seem to have life outside of Sam and Dean. I think the show should change that, myself.

Edited May 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be clear, Jared and Jensen would still be in every episode, it's just that the focus on Sam and Dean would be on another character. I'm saying they need to do a few Weekend at Bobby's type episodes per season. Sam and Dean were still in it, and it was still about Sam and Dean, but also about Bobby.

At the very least, I think they should do an episode like this for Cass. I think it would do wonders for his character to see what he actually does on a daily basis. The biggest problem with Cass currently is he doesn't seem to have life outside of Sam and Dean. I think the show should change that, myself.

Ah ok I understand you now! And I totally agree :) 

I do think this is what they attempted with Lily Sunder Has No Regrets this season! Although it ended up ultimately being more about Lily's story than Cas IMO

Edited May 16, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thank you.  That's just what I was going to say.  I get that miles vary and all, but there was Nothing in that snippet of an interview which was anywhere near the two quotes you referenced.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Whenever something like that gets floated, it’s good that someone is like, “Wait, what?!” I’ve been in plenty of meetings on Supernatural where someone is like, “Oh, by the way, we’re going to send Sam and Dean back to the Old West,” and you’re like, “Wait, what?!” Or they’re like, “Oh, by the way, we’re going to send Sam and Dean to a world where they’re Jared and Jensen, acting on a show called Supernatural,” and you’re like, “Wait, what?!” Sometimes the best ideas, and a lot of the worst ideas, come from that. That encourages you to talk it out and find the path you want to go down, that could be fun.

His "we" throughout this interview could have just been him and Singer, so yes, as always miles still vary on everything about this show, even this, IMO. It sounds to me here as if he(they) had to really sell it to the rest of the writers. So agree to disagree seems apropos even here to me.

Any other discussion on this should probably be taken to the writers thread though. IMO, of course.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Ah ok I understand you now! And I totally agree :) 

I do think this is what they attempted with Lily Sunder Has No Regrets this season! Although it ended up ultimately being more about Lily's story than Cas IMO

Lily and Isham's both, IMO. That's why I think it would've been smarter for them to have done something with Cass in the here and now--like trying to find Sam and Dean and/or trying to hunt while they were missing--rather than going back in time and making an episode that ultimately wasn't even about Cass. If his story this season is born out of his being lost when the Winchesters were missing, they should really develop that, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It sounds to me here as if he(they) had to really sell it to the rest of the writers. So agree to disagree seems apropos even here to me.

And that's fine if you think the writers had to be persuaded.  But stating something as fact such as: "none of the writers wanted to do it" when that 'fact' is not in evidence is not merely a matter of interpretation. 

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

That's what I've thought, but I don't know if the network would let the E.P.s do that?

I was thinking in terms of 15 - quality, tight - episodes, period. So that there aren't 23 eps the writers have to fill. I know that's not possible, unfortunately. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I was thinking in terms of 15 - quality, tight - episodes, period. So that there aren't 23 eps the writers have to fill. I know that's not possible, unfortunately. 

I'd be fine with that too, but, you're right, the network wouldn't probably go for it. My comments were geared toward what to do with a 23-episode order, though.

[Wynne88]

I agree.  I had little interest in watching Weekend at Bobby's because it was obviously going to be light on Sam and Dean.  Watched it anyway . . . and loved it.  I would've happily watched more episodes that largely featured Bobby and Rufus.  When done well, with good, established characters, it works fine.  The major problems being they don't do a very good job of developing characters, and when they do, they're killed off for the emotional impact.  What a waste. 

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not surprising since Dabb and Berens are the biggest Sam stans and biggest fans of SuperSam/Weak Dean.

I'll be surprised if Dean

  Hide contents

"great role" will be to tell Sam how great he is and hold his cape.

I am so very disappointed with this season. The one positive is if Jensen is unhappy, maybe he will push hard for improvements or not sign another contract. Dabb may not realize it but Jensen is the lynchpin of this show.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think there's any way to reasonably deny that S12 is Sam's season as far as kills and BDH moments go, and given the maybe-spoilers and the fact that Berens & Dabb respectively wrote the finale(s), I fully expect it to finish up that way as well. As a Dean fan, I am just about out of hope that we'll get another writer who respects the character before the show is over. And nobody will convince me that Jensen is happy with this season either. Even his tweet today is luke-warm at best, and he's been pretty much radio silent since the season premier.  

[Aeryn13]

Dean not getting a shining moment isn`t a big surprise at this point. Though still disappointing. No wonder Jensen had nothing whatsoever to say about the Finale.

[ILoveReading]

I'm surprised we got Regarding Dean. 

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think there's any way to reasonably deny that S12 is Sam's season as far as kills and BDH moments go, and given the maybe-spoilers and the fact that Berens & Dabb respectively wrote the finale(s), I fully expect it to finish up that way as well. As a Dean fan, I am just about out of hope that we'll get another writer who respects the character before the show is over. And nobody will convince me that Jensen is happy with this season either. Even his tweet today is luke-warm at best, and he's been pretty much radio silent since the season premier.

IA and I hope that he's finally had it with these writers and is ready to move on as soon as his current contract expires. My own circle of fellow SPN fans has dwindled to practically nothing after the way that Dean was written this season.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

IA and I hope that he's finally had it with these writers and is ready to move on as soon as his current contract expires. My own circle of fellow SPN fans has dwindled to practically nothing after the way that Dean was written this season.

Same here. None of my friends are interested in the SuperSammy show. I assume Jensen is under contract for 13 already.

[ILoveReading]

 I bet SuperSam won't be dropped after 3 episodes either

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I assume Jensen is under contract for 13 already.

Yup. This is the case. Unfortunately. Yet another whole season that allows them the opportunity to continue to deconstruct and trash his character in the same way they did in the second half of this season.

[Aeryn13]

There is not much left of the character as it is. I can`t even imagine how they would destroy him further but undoubtedly they`ll find a way. 

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yup. This is the case. Unfortunately. Yet another whole season that allows them the opportunity to continue to deconstruct and trash his character in the same way they did in the second half of this season.

Maybe he will just reup for 13 episodes in 14 to close out the show with a bunch of contract stipulations on his character. 

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is not much left of the character as it is. I can`t even imagine how they would destroy him further but undoubtedly they`ll find a way. 

I still don't understand this. By the measurements I have seen, Dean is the most popular character on the show. Why are they doing this to the character? Yes I am bitter.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

By the measurements I have seen, Dean is the most popular character on the show. Why are they doing this to the character? Yes I am bitter.

Because there is a difference in the character being liked by fans and liked by the writers. I think Dabb flat-out hates him. And Berens jumped on the train. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because there is a difference in the character being liked by fans and liked by the writers. I think Dabb flat-out hates him. And Berens jumped on the train. 

I don't get Beren's.  He used to be a Dean fan.  Executioner's Song was one of the best eps of the series, and now Berens can barely remember Dean's name.

If Jensen does stay another season and a half, I can only imagine the shell Dean will be then.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because there is a difference in the character being liked by fans and liked by the writers. I think Dabb flat-out hates him. And Berens jumped on the train. 

I had the impression, even before he was showrunner, that Dabb wasn't the brightest bulb. This confirms it.

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't get Beren's.  He used to be a Dean fan.  Executioner's Song was one of the best eps of the series, and now Berens can barely remember Dean's name.

If Jensen does stay another season and a half, I can only imagine the shell Dean will be then.

I would have thought any writer that had some common sense would want to write for the actor that made his script look good even if it wasn't 

[Idahoforspn]

I have said before that I will give Dabb two episodes into next season just to see if he changes course. I am quite sure though that this will be such an easy hiatus.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think there's any way to reasonably deny that S12 is Sam's season as far as kills and BDH moments go, and given the maybe-spoilers and the fact that Berens & Dabb respectively wrote the finale(s), I fully expect it to finish up that way as well. As a Dean fan, I am just about out of hope that we'll get another writer who respects the character before the show is over. And nobody will convince me that Jensen is happy with this season either. Even his tweet today is luke-warm at best, and he's been pretty much radio silent since the season premier.  

I think Sam has had a great season but it's not "Sam's season" IMO. And I think I'm reasonable. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think there's any way to reasonably deny that S12 is Sam's season as far as kills and BDH moments go, and given the maybe-spoilers and the fact that Berens & Dabb respectively wrote the finale(s), I fully expect it to finish up that way as well. As a Dean fan, I am just about out of hope that we'll get another writer who respects the character before the show is over. And nobody will convince me that Jensen is happy with this season either. Even his tweet today is luke-warm at best, and he's been pretty much radio silent since the season premier.  

Ditto!!!!

[Reganne]

I don't know what spoilers you guys are reading (as I'm not looking in the spoiler thread before I watch the episodes) but I have to say, I kind of hope Sam does get some sort of story arc.  He hasn't really had one since the beginning of season 9 IMO.  Sure, he's made some great kills this season, but I do miss the story arcs.  I'd take them over the kills any day.  Maybe it's bc the story arc this season is BMOL/Mary/Lucifers son and doesn't have as much to do with Sam and Dean as they usually do.  I don't mind it that much and have enjoyed the season for the  most part, but I would love to get back to the brothers.

[SueB]

Regarding a comment about the boys advocating stories for themselves and not taking care of their partner:  I have to say I have NEVER seen a pair of actors more joined at the hip than Jared & Jensen.  They live within a 1/2 mile of each other for pity's sake.  I think they are both fans of the show and are protective of the character they 'inhabit', for a large part of their waking day during a large part of the past 12 years, but I see nothing but love, respect and support for each other.  Doesn't mean they agree on everything, but if one thought the other was upset about a story line and they asked for support, the other would be sure to lend that support.  There is some 'bro-code' that they both demonstrate that would probably prevent them from speaking up too much (for fear of implying the other person can't speak for themselves or not wishing to overstep) without encouragement. But keeping silence out of respect for the other person's choices is not the same as lack of support.  

While I know that there is a certain level of "on-stage" antics that happen at conventions and shit, these guys have demonstrated genuine bro-love for each other that's really epic IMO.  I just can't see them EVER doing something at the expense of the other (in a serious way... sure, steal the mashed potatoes, grab the remote... but not anything REAL).  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't know what spoilers you guys are reading (as I'm not looking in the spoiler thread before I watch the episodes) but I have to say, I kind of hope Sam does get some sort of story arc.

I`m pretty sure he`ll get a story arc. Along with all the heroic kills, all the smart moments, all the inspirational speeches and all the leadership of the US hunters. This is what I imagine Season 13 will look like.

Dean will get... the goofy comedy, the incompetence and being rescued.   

Edited May 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Idahoforspn]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m pretty sure he`ll get a story arc. Along with all the heroic kills, all the smart moments, all the inspirational speeches and all the leadership of the US hunters. This is what I imagine Season 13 will look like.

Dean will get... the goofy comedy, the incompetence and being rescued.   

Unfortunately this!!!

[ILoveReading]

Even the sneak peek was all Sam. 

Spoiler

Toni knows about the manuel override switch and the bunkers defences, and Sam comes up with all the plans and suggestions and opinions.  Dean basically just stands there and asks Sam what he thinks.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Even the sneak peek was all Sam. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Toni knows about the manuel override switch and the bunkers defences, and Sam comes up with all the plans and suggestions and opinions.  Dean basically just stands there and asks Sam what he thinks.

Which is why I am not the least bit excited for tonight. Actually am dreading how bad it's going to be. 

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even the sneak peek was all Sam. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Toni knows about the manuel override switch and the bunkers defences, and Sam comes up with all the plans and suggestions and opinions.  Dean basically just stands there and asks Sam what he thinks.

I guess it depends on what you're watching.  The preview on the shaving people punting things youtube page barely had any Sam in it.  More Cas and Dean.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Reganne

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Reganne said:

I guess it depends on what you're watching.  The preview on the saving people hunting things youtube page barely had any Sam in it.  More Cas and Dean.

Dean fans have learned though that Dean gets used to sell the episode because he is very popular.  They use any good stuff in the promo and he's hardly there the rest of the episode.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I guess it depends on what you're watching.  The preview on the shaving people punting things youtube page barely had any Sam in it.  More Cas and Dean.

I'm talking about the minute and a half sneak peek we get every week, not the promo. 

Plus, screen time doesn't equal importance.  Dean was on screen just as much as Sam, if not a little more in The Memory Remains but you could film that entire episode without Dean.  He had no impact on it.

The promo for 10.09 is also another good example.  That made it look like the ep was going to focus heavily on Dean and the Mark of Cain yet the episode was mostly about Claire with all the Dean stuff coming  at the end.

Edited May 18, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Dean fans have learned though that Dean gets used to sell the episode because he is very popular.  They use any good stuff in the promo and he's hardly there the rest of the episode.

 

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm talking about the minute and a half sneak peek we get every week, not the promo. 

Plus, screen time doesn't equal importance.  Dean was on screen just as much as Sam, if not a little more in The Memory Remains but you could film that entire episode without Dean.  He had no impact on it.

Still the promo showed more Dean. A sneak peak is also used to promote an episode. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Still the promo showed more Dean. A sneak peak is also used to promote an episode. 

Unfortunately, for me, this has happened before this season, and it amounted to more of a bait and switch. Promote Dean and then, pfffft.

Maybe I'll be wrong this time.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 

Still the promo showed more Dean. A sneak peak is also used to promote an episode. 

I still remember with bitterness the promo for the episode where MoC Dean killed all the would be rapists. Promo showed Dean kneeling among the bodies and heavily promoted Dean. Then the episode was all Cass and Claire. The Dean scene was just used to get people to come back after the mid season finale. Talk about false advertising. 

[SueB]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In terms of this topic, Bitch vs Jerk, and the big kills and BDH moments this season, please point out to me where I'm wrong. With the exception of Hitler, a kill in a patently ridiculous episode that turned into to a running joke before it was even over, Sam has had all the big kills and the lion's share of the 'hero' moments. By spoiler accounts he's got them in the finale(s) as well. Sure, Dean got the Chuck/Amara moment at the end of last season, but that was after pretty much a whole season of being doubted by everyone, including himself. And even with that, the climax was so low key as to be anti-climactic. So yeah, of the two Winchesters, I'd call this Sam's season.

1) If you feel it's Sam's Season, that absolutely your prerogative.
2) Your statement was that no one could "reasonably deny" that to be true. I disagree.
3) Per the mods note:
 

Quote

Asking for someone's reasoning is fine - the point of that mod note is to inform everyone that they are under no obligation to justify their opinions to anyone unless they choose to do so. Here at PTV want everyone to feel free to express themselves in a civil way, in the knowledge that they aren't going to be pressured to 'prove' why they hold that opinion.

So, let me make it clear... I have no problem with this being your opinion. To state that it is essentially unreasonable to think otherwise is where I disagree.

Having SAID that, I'll give you my rationale in a "take it or leave it" kind of manner (i.e. I don't intend to debate each point):
- Dean has had PLENTY of BadAss moments this year for me (beyond Hitler). Now MY definition of "BadAss" is quite possibly NOT the same as the BDH moments you are using as your criteria. Still, I think of BadAss moments as being a sign that Crowley was right to "pity the fool" (quoting Mr. T) who goes against either Winchester.  BadAss moments: Liam Neeson speeches to both Lady Toni & Secret Service Asshat (in the woods) -- including breaking a phone with his bare hands out of frustration. Saving Mary from Lady Toni (because 'this monkey DID read a book'). Wrapping a vengeful possessing ghost in iron. Killing Hitler. Rolling thru the glowing front door at Asa Fox's, demon knife in hand. Holding off said demon until he broke the meatsuit's neck. Getting Enochian cuffs on Lucifer (which made him expend his energy to remove the cuffs). Just about EVERYTHING he did in First Blood in the woods including single-handedly taking out TWO Special Forces guys with a relatively small knife and nothing else. Personally, I thought he WAS magnificent riding the mechanical bull.  Taking the lead (twice) against Ramiel. Facing down a Prince of Hell with nothing but Enochian Brass Knuckles. Subduing TWO werewolves without killing them. Hand-to-hand combat with a god. Killing the ancient evil witch that made twig people. Cool disarming of Ketch in most recent episode along with behind the back kill and single shot kill of BMoL redshirt.
- Dean has had a GREAT year of actually expressing himself in a more healthy fashion than I've ever seen. He no longer refers to himself as a killer -- even when others do. He sees what he does as important and is proud of that. He's been dealt multiple emotional body-blows between both Mary and Cas and he's not just fumed on it (like he did in the past). He's expressed his issues to that individual.  Yes, he let Mary off the hook because she's his MOM and he realizes he needs to have her in his life.  When he and his mother are on more solid footing, I think they will have the ability to argue in a more healthy fashion. 
- Dean is STILL the one people defer to for plans.  He is still the leader of Team Free Will and Sam and Cas may disagree with his approach but they generally fall in line.  The latest exception (Cas taking off with the Baby Mama) was potentially an "altered state" for Cas or one where Cas felt he couldn't explain but knew Dean would ultimately approve.

So, up until tonight (when the last two episodes have yet to air), I see S12 as a good Dean year.  And from a series-level perspective, he's no longer internally struggling with his own value -- that's a HUGE deal IMO.  He started off brainwashed to think his purpose was to Save Sam and that he was never good enough.  He's so VERY far from that abused child.  Doesn't mean he's not still hurt.  He IS.  and the healing is not over.  But he's functioning well without alcohol and he's deal with issues in a healthy way.  I'm happy about this.  

Edited May 18, 2017 by SueB

[Reganne]

15 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I still remember with bitterness the promo for the episode where MoC Dean killed all the would be rapists. Promo showed Dean kneeling among the bodies and heavily promoted Dean. Then the episode was all Cass and Claire. The Dean scene was just used to get people to come back after the mid season finale. Talk about false advertising. 

I'm not saying this will be a Dean or Sam finale as I won't know until I see it.  I was just countering complaints that a sneak peak was Sam centric.  Not all the promo has revolved around Sam.  Sam was barely featured in the promo I brought up.... so it could be anyone's ballgame at this point.

[Pondlass1]

Season 12 Dean. Seriously, tho, this fucking guy. I love him for being so unuseful.  Maybe next season... ?

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I'm not saying this will be a Dean or Sam finale as I won't know until I see it.  I was just countering complaints that a sneak peak was Sam centric.  Not all the promo has revolved around Sam.  Sam was barely featured in the promo I brought up.... so it could be anyone's ballgame at this point.

Possible...but I am just going by the last half of the season which has been "Dean who?". I don't expect it to change tonight.

[ILoveReading]

IMO, the only role Dean resumed this season was that of the family doormat.   The minute he apologized to Mary for some uncomfortable truths he told her and she sat there gloating like she'd done nothing wrong.

What's the point of Dean expressing himself if no one listens to him.  Mary and Sam certainly didn't defer to Dean  when they chose Team Brit.

I'm not sure sure Dean doesn't think of himself as a killer.  When Ketch mentioned it, Dean didn't respond either in the affirmative or the negative.

Dean isn't a leader anymore.  He doesn't come up with any plans, or inspirational speeches or bond with many guest stars and tends to get his ass handed to him more often than not.  And if Dean did come up with a plan would anyone really listen?

Spoiler

For the looks of it the only general leading a raid is Sam

As for the witch kill, I'm convinced that the reason Dean got it was because Jared was off for his daughters birth.  Yeah he got a nice shot last ep, but so did Sam and Dean was the one who got taken down by Toni. 

You can easily remove Dean from this season and it would make very little difference and certainly not to any major storyline.

Edited May 18, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, the only role Dean resumed this season was that of the family doormat.   The minute he apologized to Mary for some uncomfortable truths he told her and she sat there gloating like she'd done nothing wrong.

What's the point of Dean expressing himself if no one listens to him.  Mary and Sam certainly didn't defer to Dean  when they chose Team Brit.

I'm not sure sure Dean doesn't think of himself as a killer.  When Ketch mentioned it, Dean didn't respond either in the affirmative or the negative.

Dean isn't a leader anymore.  He doesn't come up with any plans, or inspirational speeches or bond with many guest stars and tends to get his ass handed to him more often than not.  And if Dean did come up with a plan would anyone really listen?

As for the witch kill, I'm convinced that the reason Dean got it was because Jared was off for his daughters birth.  Yeah he got a nice shot last ep, but so did Sam and Dean was the one who got taken down by Toni. 

You can easily remove Dean from this season and it would make very little difference and certainly not to any major storyline.

And the badass Dean moves last episode were most likely Jensen adlibs. I am pretty sure the script said Dean shoots BMoL 1. Not Dean fires his gun in a badass move behind his back and kills BMoL 1 with an amazing shot.

[Binns]

Apologies if this has been posted, but Perez tweeted this :

was kinda hoping he wouldn't be back. 

[ILoveReading]

There is seriously nothing left for Dean on this show anymore. 

[bethy]

I'm seriously wondering if Dean is the one who dies in the finale.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

There is seriously nothing left for Dean on this show anymore. 

Yup

[trudysmom]

I agree, Catrox.  And now that Cas is gone, nothing left for me, either.  Damn.