“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Bela was an innocent girl when she was being abused. but, she was far from that when she was killed.  She didn't care about anybody but herself and getting money, so it's a little  massively hard to feel sorry for her.  She reaped what she sowed.

I don't remember exactly but I don't think Bela killed anyone nor had anyone else killed after she made the deal to have her parents killed because of the sexual abuse her father perpetrated on her. Yes, she was a thief, a liar and general asshole but I have a hard time holding her feet to the fire because she made a deal when she was like 13.  I think she thought she was basically  doomed after that, and more or less decided, welp, I've already sold my soul, I might as well just get rich along the way.

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I don't remember exactly but I don't think Bela killed anyone nor had anyone else killed after she made the deal to have her parents killed because of the sexual abuse her father perpetrated on her. Yes, she was a thief, a liar and general asshole but I have a hard time holding her feet to the fire because she made a deal when she was like 13.  I think she thought she was basically  doomed after that, and more or less decided, welp, I've already sold my soul, I might as well just get rich along the way.

She didn't directly kill anyone aas we know, but but she was perfectly happy to steal back that rabbit's foot and leave Sam and dean to their certain deaths.  She stole the "hand of glory" which sam and Dean were going to burn to save people from the ghost ships.  And, but for the fact that they left dummies in their bed, she would have plugged Sam and Dean in their sleep.  And, in fact, after she shot Sam in Bad day at black rock, she said "who here hasn't shot a few people."  There's absolutely no reason to think that at the very least, she hasn't been indirectly responsible for scores of deaths, and maybe directly for a few.  So, nope, not sorry for her at all.  I hate that they even tried to make her sympathetic. I probably would have enjoyed her character more if they hadn't.  I was fine with her in Bad Day.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Bela was an innocent girl when she was being abused. but, she was far from that when she was killed.  She didn't care about anybody but herself and getting money, so it's a little  massively hard to feel sorry for her.  She reaped what she sowed.

Yes, it's hard to feel sorry for grownup Bela (though she was a lot of fun!), but it was a still bad idea writing in a back story about demons making deals for souls with kids.  Even with adults, the whole point of these deals is to take a person's soul in exchange for them indulging in one vice or another, be it fame, power, money.  But when it's just to end their being abused, I think even Crowley would have a talk with those demons.

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

For me, the first half of season 8 was the set up for why Sam took on the trials.  Dean came back.  Sam was not happy about it at first, possibly because of the guilt he felt at having given up on Dean and Kevin.  He lashed out at Benny and had Dean flat out telling him that Benny was a better brother to him than Sam had ever been (and yes, I count this as what Dean really thought, because I count what Sam said to Dean in season 4 when under the siren's spell as Sam's real thoughts on Dean post-Hell).  Sam was pushing the story forward.  Maybe, depending on how you see it, the first half of season 9 could be seen as leading up to Dean taking the MoC, but it was a major tonal shift in the way the show often does things, because the first half appeared to be about Sam being possessed by Gadreel, and Sam is so often who the storyline is happening to or being pushed by that it is a difficult transition to properly label.  It could also be seen as Sam being possessed by Gadreel pushing the story forward, and Dean reacting to it throughout, which culminated in him taking the Mark, and that's when the shift of Dean going from being the protagonist to the focal character happened, while Sam went from being the focal character to the protagonist, except it wasn't a flawless transition.  Sam spent much of the back half of season nine, not noticing or caring that anything was wrong with Dean until Dean attacked Gadreel, and if Sam is the protagonist, we're supposed to be seeing Dean's transformation through Sam's eyes and sympathizing with him more.

These are interesting perspectives. I think I would buy the season 8 argument more than season 9 one though, (explanation to follow) but if we go that the first half of season 8 was the set up for Sam taking the trials in season 8, then I would say that the first half of season 9 was setting Dean up to take on the MoC and all that came from that. But even then, Sam's role was almost too passive in the first half of season 8 for me to say that he pushed the story in that half. Dean had the "active" part - with his purgatory experiences and his active friendship with Benny and his trying to keep that friendship and actively doing things towards that goal (the storyline of "Blood Brother" for example.) Sam was pretty much just reacting to that. Now I personally count "emotional" story arcs - though not usually as strongly as more active ones - but not everybody does. Some insist that emotional story arcs don't count for much at all, so I think perception has an affect on how things are seen here.

It also doesn't help that the Amelia arc made almost no sense - nor did the writers seem to try to make it make sense. If the message was supposed to be that Sam was somehow angry or annoyed with Dean for having to give up his supposedly idyllic (which it wasn't) normal life, the actual flashbacks made no sense in that regard, since we found out that Sam had left Amelia - due to the husband returning and maybe because it wasn't working out anyway(?) (hard to tell since he seemed to just leave without saying goodbye or even seeming all that conflicted about leaving) - before he even ran into Dean, so it was kind of hard to understand Sam's point of view and sympathize with him when the writers didn't even bother - in my opinion anyway - to make his point of view logical. And when Sam left Amelia, instead of moving on to more "normal," he immediately went to Rufus' cabin - returning to hunting surroundings rather than continuing to move away from that life. That, too, makes little sense to me if Sam supposedly wanted to move on. So basically, I saw Sam's arc in the first half of season 8 more as a muddled mess than something that moved the story forward. And if his "anger" with Dean was due to guilt, that wasn't shown clearly in my opinion either throughout the first half of the season - again not giving us a clear avenue to sympathize with him. Actually the writing seemed - to me anyway - to go out of its way to make us not sympathize with Sam ("Citizen Fang" almost made me give up the show for good.)

With season 9, I could more see the argument that Sam was pushing the story forward and Dean just reacting if Dean's reaction didn't lead to taking on the MoC - which was the main arc of season 9 - and if - again - Sam had a more active role. But even more than Sam driving things, Gadreel himself drove the plot. Gadreel was the one making Dean lie and making Dean send Castiel away, and he was the one who killed Kevin. Gadreel was a character in his own right, with his own arc - ending in a redemption arc at that - while Sam was mostly being used as a conduit for Gadreel. To me this became even more the case, when as you said, the transition to Sam supposedly taking the point of view while Dean became the main character, never really happened. Sam's valid reasons for being angry were pushed to the background and the main POV still stayed with Dean, because he was the character it seemed that the audience was still supposed to sympathize with. I thought that the Sam POV was more sympathetic in the first half of the season, but that actually tracks with him not having much of an active role in that part of the season either. I think I would actually give the active role in the first half of season 8 to Gadreel.

17 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I like season 6 for the most part, but it was a mess.  If you squint and look really hard, you can see their arcs.  The first half of season 6 Sam was soulless, and that's what lead them into working with the Campbells and then Crowley to find Alphas.  The second half was about fixing the things Sam did while he was soulless.  For instance, Like A Virgin introduced a consequence of one of the things done while Sam was soulless, Eve coming topside because of all the Alphas being tortured and killed - something Cas, Crowley, Samuel, and Soulless Sam spent a good deal of time doing in the year Dean was out (Dean came in at the tail end of it).  Unforgiven was more of an obvious episode about making right something Sam did wrong while soulless.  The underlying concern throughout the back-half was whether or not Sam's wall would break causing him to remember his time in the cage - all things tied to what he did while soulless and where his soul had been.  Cas's arc really picked up in the second half of the season too.  Dean reacted to both Sam and Cas's arcs, but Sam and Cas were the center of those arcs, and Dean revolved around them . . . All the worrying about whether or not Sam would remember his hell pain came to fruition and was an arc that was completed in the back half of season 7 and converged with the start of Cas's redemption arc - or that's the way I see it.

I can see some of this. Weirdly though again, Sam seems to somehow be almost passive in his own arc here. Being soulless was something that was done to him, not something he actually did himself. And yes, much of the second half of the season revolved around what would happen with Sam's wall after his soul was returned, but it was Dean who actually had the active role in getting Sam's soul back and it wasn't just a spur of the moment thing. Multiple episodes were devoted to Dean figuring out Sam was soulless and coming to the conclusion that he had to get Sam's soul back and then actively doing so, so I think in the end this was more of a shared arc than I originally thought, but I still think Dean had a very important and active role. Dean wasn't only reacting to Sam being soulless and then what would happen with his wall, he actively influenced the situation by arranging to get Sam's soul back and instigating Death to put up a wall. Dean also had an active role in dealing with the consequences of Sam being soulless. Dean was the one to kill Eve - he not only killed the Phoenix to get the ashes, but he came up with the plan to kill Eve on his own and killed her. He was even the one to find Samuel Colt's journal with the information about where a phoenix was and come up with the plan to go back in time to get the ashes. So for me, Dean did more than just reacting to Sam's soulless/souled/wall arc. He was an active participant in multiple parts of that arc.

I think they both reacted to Castiel's arc.

So, I'll concede that season 6 was maybe not mostly Dean, but I would argue that it was at least equal. I actually thought that Gamble was quite good at that - giving both brothers importance in the arcs she had. I know that there are those who disagree - especially for season 7 - but I thought both brothers had interesting emotional arcs, and Dean also had his revenge arc that tied into that. And while I acknowledge that for some Dean's alcoholic depression wasn't what they wanted for the character, I wish I could've seen what Sera's ultimate conclusion for it would have been. And I liked the brother dynamic during the Gamble years, and I really missed caring Sam in season 8. (so, so much.)

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

She didn't directly kill anyone aas we know, but but she was perfectly happy to steal back that rabbit's foot and leave Sam and dean to their certain deaths.  She stole the "hand of glory" which sam and Dean were going to burn to save people from the ghost ships.  And, but for the fact that they left dummies in their bed, she would have plugged Sam and Dean in their sleep.  And, in fact, after she shot Sam in Bad day at black rock, she said "who here hasn't shot a few people."  There's absolutely no reason to think that at the very least, she hasn't been indirectly responsible for scores of deaths, and maybe directly for a few.  So, nope, not sorry for her at all.  I hate that they even tried to make her sympathetic. I probably would have enjoyed her character more if they hadn't.  I was fine with her in Bad Day.

All true... and also Bela thought nothing of telling Gordon where to find Sam and Dean and even nabbed herself a bounty at their expense. She had a pretty good idea that Gordon was dangerous and was likely after Sam, but once she got her prize and Gordon left, calling to warn Sam and Dean apparently barely crossed her mind if at all. Oh and she also set them up to be caught by the police, not caring that they were highly wanted and likely to get in a lot of trouble.

[CluelessDrifter]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can see some of this. Weirdly though again, Sam seems to somehow be almost passive in his own arc here. Being soulless was something that was done to him, not something he actually did himself. 

As the focal character, the story is either driven by him or done to him to keep it going.  That's what I mean.  It makes this show's 'main character' appear muddied at times, because throughout the history of literature and acting, almost all focal characters and protagonists are one person.  Occasionally, it's split into two.  I think originally that Sam was supposed to be both, as he was supposed to be the main character, but somewhere along the way in season 1, they changed Dean from simply being a deuteragonist or side kick to being the protagonist.  We were no longer seeing the story through Sam's eyes as he reoriented himself to hunting, his family, and wanting revenge.  The transition may have started around the time of Home, but it was still Sam who Mary spoke to at the end of Home, so I'm thinking possibly around the time of Faith, and that's why you'll see most Dean fans listing Faith as their favorite episode of Season 1.  Whenever it happened, it was totally complete by the end of the season and going into the next.  The psy kid story line is something that was happening to Sam and that's what drove the story.  Dean's tasks revolved around that, seeing how it unfolded, and ultimately finding a way to save Sam.  Of course I could be wrong, but this is my take on it.

Edited May 6, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, Dobian said:

Yes, it's hard to feel sorry for grownup Bela (though she was a lot of fun!), but it was a still bad idea writing in a back story about demons making deals for souls with kids.  Even with adults, the whole point of these deals is to take a person's soul in exchange for them indulging in one vice or another, be it fame, power, money.  But when it's just to end their being abused, I think even Crowley would have a talk with those demons.

I'll agree with you there If they had left Bela's tragic past out of it and just had her been a fun thief/scum bag, I would have liked her a lot more.  And, there should be a rule that you have to be at least 16 to sell your soul.  At least Bela was a teenager.  In Devil May Care, they had that Grandma CRD apparently buying little kids' souls. 

[ILoveReading]

Interesting that at the con this weekend Jensen mentioned again that he misses purgatory Dean.

Spoiler

He's also excited for ep 22 which he posted that clip of Jensen firing a gun and he's excited that Dean gets to use the grenade launcher. 

This leads me to believe that Jensen did not ask to have his actions scenes reduced.

[Aeryn13]

I never believed that. He has always been quite genuinely excited about those. And by all accounts from BTS, he is very good with stunt work, well-coordinated and athletic so he doesn`t need a ton of prep and help for those scenes. Meaning while they ARE time-consuming, they wouldn`t be as much as with an actor who just has no talent and/or experience for/with them. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I read it that the poster was "irritated" Mary didn't talk to Sam instead.

I read it as the post complaining that Mary didn't talk to Sam in general - not instead of talking to Dean in this particular instance.  

16 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

The show has not been showing us that Sam is initiating a lot of contact with his mother to just check on her.

No it hasn't.  But that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening off screen.  What we have seen is a lot of Sam asking Dean "Have you heard from Mom?"'s.  Now the way I see it, there's at least two possible scenarios (probably more, that's why I said 'at least'): 

1. Sam has been trying to contact Mary, but just like with Dean, she's not real good at responding.  So he asks Dean on the off chance that Dean has heard from Mary (and since he does know they've at least played Words together) and he (Sam) won't keep trying to contact her, making him feel like he's just bothering her.

2. Sam isn't initiating a lot of contact with Mary, because when he did try, she didn't respond - and see the end of #1 above.   

Neither of which is reason to turn a comment about wanting to see Mary talking to Sam into a rant against Sam and all about Dean.

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I read it as the post complaining that Mary didn't talk to Sam in general - not instead of talking to Dean in this particular instance.  

No it hasn't.  But that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening off screen.  What we have seen is a lot of Sam asking Dean "Have you heard from Mom?"'s.  Now the way I see it, there's at least two possible scenarios (probably more, that's why I said 'at least'): 

1. Sam has been trying to contact Mary, but just like with Dean, she's not real good at responding.  So he asks Dean on the off chance that Dean has heard from Mary (and since he does know they've at least played Words together) and he (Sam) won't keep trying to contact her, making him feel like he's just bothering her.

2. Sam isn't initiating a lot of contact with Mary, because when he did try, she didn't respond - and see the end of #1 above.   

Neither of which is reason to turn a comment about wanting to see Mary talking to Sam into a rant against Sam and all about Dean.

I am going with what the show has shown us on screen. The rest is for fan fiction.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I am going with what the show has shown us on screen. The rest is for fan fiction

Even then, my last point still stands.

[Reganne]

34 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I read it as the post complaining that Mary didn't talk to Sam in general - not instead of talking to Dean in this particular instance.  

That is the way I took it as well.  I figured it would happen, but Mary is more involved with Dean.  Maybe it's the way the writers decided to go and not bother to show either Sam or Mary attempt to make much contact for whatever reason.  The only time Mary is shown trying to reach out to Sam was when she knew Dean was angry with her and wouldn't talk to her.  Even then, her interactions with Sam quickly turned to business and almost like she was trying to recruit him.  Most of the time she is telling Dean to tell Sam she loves him... instead of telling him herself.  When not being able to get ahold of Dean by phone, she didn't even think to try Sam.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Dean and Mary interacting.  I think it's the lack of communication  the writers have chosen to go with Sam and Mary.  TBH, I am just glad we have Eileen this season as I have stated before I thought most recurring characters are centered around Dean.  I really like her and am glad she returned.  I just hope it's not short lived.

[Idahoforspn]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Even then, my last point still stands.

It wasn't a rant against Sam. Although it wasn't intended to be  a a rant, if it was, it was about fans whose favorite character is getting to do almost everything in the show right now complaining that said character isn't given everything else to do too. I don't hate Sam.  I don't want Sam relegated to irrelevancy so Dean can do it all and I would appreciate the reciprocal from Sam fans instead of wanting more imbalance. I want these writers to write for two CO-LEADS.

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

That is the way I took it as well.  I figured it would happen, but Mary is more involved with Dean.  Maybe it's the way the writers decided to go and not bother to show either Sam or Mary attempt to make much contact for whatever reason.  The only time Mary is shown trying to reach out to Sam was when she knew Dean was angry with her and wouldn't talk to her.  Even then, her interactions with Sam quickly turned to business and almost like she was trying to recruit him.  Most of the time she is telling Dean to tell Sam she loves him... instead of telling him herself.  When not being able to get ahold of Dean by phone, she didn't even think to try Sam.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Dean and Mary interacting.  I think it's the lack of communication  the writers have chosen to go with Sam and Mary.  TBH, I am just glad we have Eileen this season as I have stated before I thought most recurring characters are centered around Dean.  I really like her and am glad she returned.  I just hope it's not short lived.

I like the Sam/Eileen connection too. I agree that Dean used to interact more with the guest stars.

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

It wasn't a rant against Sam. Although it wasn't intended to be  a a rant, if it was, it was about fans whose favorite character is getting to do almost everything in the show right now complaining that said character isn't given everything else to do too. I don't hate Sam.  I don't want Sam relegated to irrelevancy so Dean can do it all and I would appreciate the reciprocal from Sam fans instead of wanting more imbalance. I want these writers to write for two CO-LEADS.

I want it to be written for two co-leads as well.  The last episode was more Dean centric.  He got the kill and everything and I enjoyed the episode as a whole. If he gets the kill in the next episode, I am happy with that as well.

However, in terms of relationships, there is usually an imbalance in favor of Dean for this series.  Most recurring characters have bonded more with Dean in general or have more of a relationship with him.

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

It wasn't a rant against Sam. Although it wasn't intended to be  a a rant, if it was, it was about fans whose favorite character is getting to do almost everything in the show right now complaining that said character isn't given everything else to do too. I don't hate Sam.  I don't want Sam relegated to irrelevancy so Dean can do it all and I would appreciate the reciprocal from Sam fans instead of wanting more imbalance. I want these writers to write for two CO-LEADS.

I like the Sam/Eileen connection too. I agree that Dean used to interact more with the guest stars.

It's the writers imbalance. Why can't they divide up everything (kills, planning, research, interaction with guest stars) better this year. That includes the communication with Mary. Doesn't have to be balanced in each episode but it should be over a number of episodes.

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I want it to be written for two co-leads as well.  The last episode was more Dean centric.  He got the kill and everything and I enjoyed the episode as a whole. If he gets the kill in the next episode, I am happy with that as well.

However, in terms of relationships, there is usually an imbalance in favor of Dean for this series.  Most recurring characters have bonded more with Dean in general or have more of a relationship with him.

I don't disagree with that when you look at the series as a whole. This season has swung sharply the other way but I'm ok with that if they would balance the rest.

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

It's the writers imbalance. Why can't they divide up everything (kills, planning, research, interaction with guest stars) better this year. That includes the communication with Mary. Doesn't have to be balanced in each episode but it should be over a number of episodes.

I don't even mind if it's not entirely equal.  I just don't think the pendulum should swing so far in one direction.  And I admit it did seem that way with Sam getting all the kills for quite a few episodes in a row.  Though that could be the fact that I stopped the binge watching in January and started watching new episodes weekly so it could have seemed like a longer stint than usual for me.

[rue721]

I think it might be my post about Mary's phone calls in Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes that you guys are mentioning? (Probably not, but I did say something about her phone calls...or lack thereof!).

Personally, I thought it was a little dumb that when Mary saw the Anti-Hunter Command Center in the BMOL lair, she tried to make a phone call to Dean and left him a voicemail about it. Nobody listens to their voicemail! At least not for hours and hours. He was not going to get that in time. She needed to send out a group text to both Sam and Dean being like, "Help!! @BMOL HQ" or something, so that at least one of them would get the message ASAP (and could then tell the other and get out there). Everyone checks their texts a lot more easily/frequently than they listen to their voicemails FFS.

And once the doofus (Mary) left Dean a voicemail, she didn't even try to get in contact with Sam over the HQ issue. She needed help from AT LEAST one of them, so you'd think she'd want to try Sam at that point just for that reason. Not to mention that Sam and Dean are pretty much a package deal, so if she did get in contact with Sam, he'd probably be able to get in touch with Dean for her, too -- and then they'd both be able to help her out.

The voicemail where she was talking personally to Dean about feelings and stuff made sense, but when she just needed to get in touch with them later about what she discovered at the HQ, I thought her method of doing so was just so....not proactive? Why ignore one of them completely and why leave urgent info in a voicemail? I kind of like that Mary is out of touch, but that was frustrating.

I do think it's notable that, now that Mary knows that Dean doesn't hate her (ever since he came around the BMOL HQ after the Alpha Vamp Raid), she's apparently in much closer contact with him than she is with Sam. But I don't really have bitterness over it, just think it's interesting. I'd like to see more of all three of them together. Hopefully we'll get that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

It wasn't a rant against Sam. Although it wasn't intended to be  a a rant, if it was, it was about fans whose favorite character is getting to do almost everything in the show right now complaining that said character isn't given everything else to do too. I don't hate Sam.  I don't want Sam relegated to irrelevancy so Dean can do it all and I would appreciate the reciprocal from Sam fans instead of wanting more imbalance. I want these writers to write for two CO-LEADS.

I like the Sam/Eileen connection too. I agree that Dean used to interact more with the guest stars.

I agree with what you're saying about having more balance between the brothers (though I don't see the imbalance that many on here apparently see.)  It's the bolded part with which I originally took (and still take) issue.  Even if you are correct that Sam is getting to do almost everything on the show (I disagree), his fans still have the right to complain that he's not talking to Mary - even if you don't like reading it.  I thought that that was basically the point of the most recent spate of moderator posts?  When there were complaints about all the negative posts, the moderators basically said suck it up and skim.  It goes both ways.

[Bessie]

38 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Although it wasn't intended to be  a a rant, if it was, it was about fans whose favorite character is getting to do almost everything in the show right now complaining that said character isn't given everything else to do too.

That's unfair. All she said was that she'd like there to be some contact between Sam and Mary. There's nothing wrong with that, I happen to agree with it. And that she was irritated that all contact with Mary went through Dean. That doesn't mean she wants all contact with Mary to go through Sam, but that in addition to talking with Dean, it'd be nice if she and Sam were in touch. 

That seems like a reasonable complaint to me. And as @rue721 points out, it was strange that Mary is in trouble, knows she's in trouble, leaves a voicemail for Dean and doesn't even attempt to get in touch with Sam. Very odd behavior. 

ETA: Or what @RulerofallIsurvey said. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Bessie
Jinx

[Reganne]

22 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I

I don't disagree with that when you look at the series as a whole. This season has swung sharply the other way but I'm ok with that if they would balance the rest.

For quite a few episodes regarding Kills... I agree.  In terms of relationships with recurring characters, I think it's more balanced this season than previous seasons.   Dean has had scenes with Crowley, Cass and Rowena all on his own.  He actually shared a semi heartfelt scene with Rowena.... though he was losing his memory at the time so she didn't mind opening up a bit to him.  Sam's scenes with Rowena involved trying to save Dean.  I don't think he has had alone scenes with Cass or Crowley this season.

They both shared moments with the witch twins.  Dean more with Max and Sam more with Alicia.  Though Alicia is now technically dead so there is no forming of a relationship there.  Mary has shared scenes with both boys which had some great moments but only really keeps in contact with Dean.  

I would say Mick probably bonded more with Sam since they had more in common and then Eileen also bonded more with Sam.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree with what you're saying about having more balance between the brothers (though I don't see the imbalance that many on here apparently see.)  It's the bolded part with which I originally took (and still take) issue.  Even if you are correct that Sam is getting to do almost everything on the show (I disagree), his fans still have the right to complain that he's not talking to Mary - even if you don't like reading it.  I thought that that was basically the point of the most recent spate of moderator posts?  When there were complaints about all the negative posts, the moderators basically said suck it up and skim.  It goes both ways.

Your right. I didn't realize I personalized it as much as it apparently came across. We can disagree on the treatment of characters without being disagreeable about it. 

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

It's the writers imbalance. Why can't they divide up everything (kills, planning, research, interaction with guest stars) better this year. That includes the communication with Mary. Doesn't have to be balanced in each episode but it should be over a number of episodes.

I'm of the personal belief that balance for balance sake is actually imbalance. I think the writers shouldn't be keeping a scorecard, but write what is organic to the characters. With Mary and her lack of contact, I think they've achieved that.

IMO, Mary's not contacting either of them, she doesn't know how to be a mom to these grown up men so she's found something to keep her busy so she doesn't have to deal with them much at all. So, it's them reaching out to her for the most part.

We've seen Dean has been making more of an effort, but I think that makes character sense for Dean. For Dean, I think it's harder on him to know that Mary is now within his reach, but still unreachable. So he keeps trying like he did with John all those years ago.

I also think Sam's lack of reaching out makes sense for him as a character too. Sam has no memories of having a mom or what it feels like to have that relationship. So to him, Mary being back, but out of contact is no different for him than when she was dead and unreachable. So, he calls her when he thinks about it, but since he never got in the habit of her being around, he's not in the habit of thinking of calling her.

Personally, I think they've done this right. They stayed true to the different characters instead of writing scenes just so each could have the same amount of phone calls from Mary. 

33 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Personally, I thought it was a little dumb that when Mary saw the Anti-Hunter Command Center in the BMOL lair, she tried to make a phone call to Dean and left him a voicemail about it. Nobody listens to their voicemail! At least not for hours and hours. He was not going to get that in time. She needed to send out a group text to both Sam and Dean being like, "Help!! @BMOL HQ" or something, so that at least one of them would get the message ASAP (and could then tell the other and get out there). Everyone checks their texts a lot more easily/frequently than they listen to their voicemails FFS.

I'm not so sure Mary is up on the best ways to use her phone. I'd guess she just redialed the last number that called her, which just happened to be Dean and unfortunately he didn't pick up, so she left a message. I don't think she really thought it through, myself, but just reacted in the moment and in the moment that's all she could think to do. I personally don't think is shows any bias toward Dean or against Sam, just that Mary isn't very quick thinking, myself.

Edited May 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm of the personal belief that balance for balance sake is actually imbalance. I think the writers shouldn't be keeping a scorecard, but write what is organic to the characters. With Mary and her lack of contact, I think they've achieved that.

IMO, Mary's not contacting either of them, she doesn't know how to be a mom to these grown up men so she's found something to keep her busy so she doesn't have to deal with them much at all. So, it's them reaching out to her for the most part.

We've seen Dean has been making more of an effort, but I think that makes character sense for Dean. For Dean, I think it's harder on him to know that Mary is now within his reach, but still unreachable. So he keeps trying like he did with John all those years ago.

I also think Sam's lack of reaching out makes sense for him as a character too. Sam has no memories of having a mom or what it feels like to have that relationship. So to him, Mary being back, but out of contact is no different for him than when she was dead and unreachable. So, he calls her when he thinks about it, but since he never got in the habit of her being around, he's not in the habit of thinking of calling her.

Personally, I think they've done this right. They stayed true to the different characters instead of writing scenes just so each could have the same amount of phone calls from Mary. 

I'm not so sure Mary is up on the best ways to use her phone. I'd guess she just redialed the last number that called her, which just happened to be Dean and unfortunately he didn't pick up, so she left a message. I don't think she really thought it through, myself, but just reacted in the moment and in the moment that's all she could think to do. I personally don't think is shows any bias toward Dean or against Sam, just that Mary isn't very quick thinking, myself.

Very thoughtful analysis that I think is spot on for my headcanon. As far as balance, I don't mean kill for kill as an example. Balance for me is when both brothers are allowed to shine, to have their hero moments, and to contribute meaningfully to the storyline equally but not necessarily by doing the same thing.

[ZennyKenny]

On 5/5/2017 at 3:57 AM, mertensia said:

Since Tasha had no clue Mary died when Dean was 4 it's a bit much for any reasonable viewer to think she was lecturing him instead of trying to do some bonding with him. 

Yeah, I got the impression that she was trying to bond and not lecture as well.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd guess she just redialed the last number that called her, which just happened to be Dean and unfortunately he didn't pick up, so she left a message.

Did she actually DIAL his number? If so, then Lord. I just don't know about this lady. How is she supposed to use tech like the BMOL's when she can't figure out a contacts list? ;)

That said, I will love Samuel Campbell forever for that dumb line when he was asking Dean about soccer moms and the intranet. Cracked me up. So like I said, in the broad scheme, I find Mary being out of touch somewhat charming. Despite it sometimes also being quite frustrating.

Anyway, I don't know about favoritism, but I think that Mary thinks her relationship with Dean is more fragile than her relationship with Sam is, because Dean was open about being upset with her after she left the bunker, and has just generally been more open about his more "negative" emotions with her. I think that she thinks she's on relatively thin ice with him.

IMO Dean is trying very hard to reach out to Mary and to "let her in," and Mary might be responding to that, too, by reciprocating somewhat. In fact, I think it's admirable and brave for Dean to be so open. MAJOR props IMO.

I think that Sam isn't as...able to do that? IMO Sam is actually pretty terrible at understanding and expressing how he feels about anything. I think that it's not that Sam is TRYING not to open up to Mary, but I don't think that he knows how or even understands himself well enough to know what he would open up to her about. And IMO that's an obstacle to them having a close relationship. They could not have had the kind of heartfelt phone tag that Dean and Mary had in Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes IMO.

I think all that is in-character. 

I also think that it was a big call-back to Home that Dean left a heartfelt voicemail -- and that, unlike John, Mary ANSWERED him. And that she wanted to tell him/them about the trouble she found herself in, instead of trying to close them out the way that John did in that episode, too.

The other thing is that I think that Mary thought that she was primarily delivering info when she left that voicemail about the BMOL -- not necessarily asking for help. Her letting that heads' up get buried in a voicemail box and not even bothering to contact a second person about it makes more sense in that context, IMO. Personally, I would have been asking for help, but then, I also wouldn't have been antagonizing Ketch the way that she was, either. I think it was kind of stupid/impractical/naive that she was so confrontational with Ketch, but I kind of admired it, too. It was stupid but brave, so I have to give her some props for that.

OK, apologies for veering so wildly off-topic!

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Did she actually DIAL his number?

I don't remember, but I'm guessing she just hit redial on her "recent" list. So, no, I don't think she dialed his number, nor do I think she went through her contacts to find Dean's number. I think she did the simplest thing it was for her to do. I'd guess texting would've taken her longer given she just was introduced to it a few months ago.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that Sam isn't as...able to do that? IMO Sam is actually pretty terrible at understanding and expressing how he feels about anything. I think that it's not that Sam is TRYING not to open up to Mary, but I don't think that he knows how or even understands himself well enough to know what he would open up to her about. And IMO that's an obstacle to them having a close relationship. They could not have had the kind of heartfelt phone tag that Dean and Mary had in Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes IMO.

Replying in the Sam thread.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't remember, but I'm guessing she just hit redial on her "recent" list. So, no, I don't think she dialed his number, nor do I think she went through her contacts to find Dean's number. I think she did the simplest thing it was for her to do. I'd guess texting would've taken her longer given she just was introduced to it a few months ago.

Who knows.

I do think that we're meant to notice in this episode that she's in closer communication with Dean than with Sam, though. There were the phone calls, and there was also the shot of her email inbox, where messages from Dean were pretty prominent as well.

I think the choice for her to use voicemail rather than texting was to hang a lantern on her attempting to be in contact with Dean and as a callback to Home.

If she really felt comfortable with her phone, she not only would have been doing a group text, she would have taken a picture or even made a recording of that murder board she found lol

[shang yiet]

rue721, I think it was my short and hurriedly typed post that so annoyed idahoforspn. Anyway, everyone here has explained exactly what I was trying to say in my not-so-eloquent way (thanks!) and I'm glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up. I join idahoforspn in wishing for more balance as she puts it.

DittyDotDot - I have to disagree with you. For years, I've seen the 'Sam has no memories of Mary' explanation to explain away why every time, Dean is the one with more visible reactions/stronger feelings/bigger emotional impact. And now Mary's return is supposed to have not much impact on Sam because he can't remember her and she might as well be dead anyway? She's his mother. Might as well hand Mary's storyline and all the emotions straight to Dean. I know that's not what you meant but that's how I feel. Grr! Now I feel irritated again at Mary not even trying to call Sam when she couldn't reach Dean.

And frankly, he does have memories of her. He time travelled and met her. He saw her as a ghost in Home. The writers can show Sam and Mary reaching out to each other for very valid reasons. Mary never got to know her baby. Sam finally has the big chance to grab some more memories.

Surely the impact of Mary's return on Sam should be just as big as the impact on Dean.

Edited May 6, 2017 by shang yiet

[Idahoforspn]

48 minutes ago, Reganne said:

For quite a few episodes regarding Kills... I agree.  In terms of relationships with recurring characters, I think it's more balanced this season than previous seasons.   Dean has had scenes with Crowley, Cass and Rowena all on his own.  He actually shared a semi heartfelt scene with Rowena.... though he was losing his memory at the time so she didn't mind opening up a bit to him.  Sam's scenes with Rowena involved trying to save Dean.  I don't think he has had alone scenes with Cass or Crowley this season.

They both shared moments with the witch twins.  Dean more with Max and Sam more with Alicia.  Though Alicia is now technically dead so there is no forming of a relationship there.  Mary has shared scenes with both boys which had some great moments but only really keeps in contact with Dean.  

I would say Mick probably bonded more with Sam since they had more in common and then Eileen also bonded more with Sam.

We will have to just disagree on that one. As I have watched this season I see Sam with a big lead in interacting with the guest stars this year. 

[Pondlass1]

33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

She needed to send out a group text to both Sam and Dean being like, "Help!! @BMOL HQ"

I think sometimes we place WAY more emphasis on things than the writers.  Their criteria is to entertain and build suspense - not have characters be realistic or practical.  And I'm pretty certain there's little conscious thought given to how many kills, phone calls from mom, interactions with guests, etc., each brother has had.  Probably writers have a fav and put them out front.  Dabb should pay more attention, he's got a rabid and divided fanbase  biting at his heels.

Still, I have to admit Dean has lost almost all his badassery  and why didn't any member of TPTB pick up on the glaring fact that if mom couldn't get hold of Dean, she'd immediately try Sam?

[Bessie]

27 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO Sam is actually pretty terrible at understanding and expressing how he feels about anything. I think that it's not that Sam is TRYING not to open up to Mary, but I don't think that he knows how or even understands himself well enough to know what he would open up to her about. And IMO that's an obstacle to them having a close relationship.

Replied in mary thread. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

rue721, I think it was my short and hurriedly typed post that so annoyed idahoforspn. Anyway, everyone here has explained exactly what I was trying to say in my not-so-eloquent way (thanks!) and I'm glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up. I join idahoforspn in wishing for more balance as she puts it.

DittyDotDot - I have to disagree with you. For years, I've seen the 'Sam has no memories of Mary' explanation to explain away why every time, Dean is the one with more visible reactions/stronger feelings/bigger emotional impact. And now Mary's return is supposed to have not much impact on Sam because he can't remember her and she might as well be dead anyway? She's his mother. Might as well hand Mary's storyline and all the emotions straight to Dean. I know that's not what you meant but that's how I feel. Grr! Now I feel irritated again at Mary not even trying to call Sam when she couldn't reach Dean.

And frankly, he does have memories of her. He time travelled and met her. The writers can show Sam and Mary reaching out to each other for very valid reasons. Surely if the mother who was practically a stranger to you is suddenly alive, wouldn't the impact on Sam be just as big as the impact on Dean?

I apologized for reacting so strongly to your original post. We are just going to have to disagree. I agree Mary's return should also strongly affect Sam and that should not be dismissed. However, I also think that Dean's four years with his mother which caused him to  put her on a pedestal is why Dean's connection is stronger. Also, he has spent a lot more time with his Mom in early show too. He time traveled back without Sam for a whole episode and then there was the djin (how do you spell the name of the genie?) episode. Dean has always had the "what could have been" thoughts because he experienced a little of it as a child. JMO

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And I'm pretty certain there's little conscious thought given to how many kills, phone calls from mom, interactions with guests, etc., each brother has had.  Probably writers have a fav and put them out front. 

I still find it hard to buy that this year every writer individually came up with the idea to have Dean either not be there for the relevant action scenes or wrote him to lose his weapon and lay on the ground for several of their scripts. That`s just too much coincidence for me. I buy it from Perez because he doesn`t seem to give a flying fuck about the character. What is with everyone else?  

For example, as much as I don`t like the nepotism duo and their comments about violent killer!Dean who apparently is a born psychopath or something, that usually leads them to write him "violent" and action-y. So when even they started writing the valium!guy, I took notice. Or Berens who is usually a Cas-guy but not per se a Dean hater and I found his two last scripts this Season atrocious for the character. Then there is Glynn who showed partialness to Dean`s character, yet in her script with Berens, I couldn`t see any positivity for the character. John Bring did something Dean-friendly enough last year and this year it was like he went out of his way to make a pimp-Sam-episode. Was there something in the water or what?    

It was just all too much over too long a period of time and I don`t buy at all that the writers weren`t aware of that. 

I`m just happy Yockey apparently missed that group meeting because his recent episode was sorely needed for me. 

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I still find it hard to buy that this year every writer individually came up with the idea to have Dean either not be there for the relevant action scenes or wrote him to lose his weapon and lay on the ground for several of their scripts. That`s just too much coincidence for me. I buy it from Perez because he doesn`t seem to give a flying fuck about the character. What is with everyone else?  

For example, as much as I don`t like the nepotism duo and their comments about violent killer!Dean who apparently is a born psychopath or something, that usually leads them to write him "violent" and action-y. So when even they started writing the valium!guy, I took notice. Or Berens who is usually a Cas-guy but not per se a Dean hater and I found his two last scripts this Season atrocious for the character. Then there is Glynn who showed partialness to Dean`s character, yet in her script with Berens, I couldn`t see any positivity for the character. John Bring did something Dean-friendly enough last year and this year it was like he went out of his way to make a pimp-Sam-episode. Was there something in the water or what?    

It was just all too much over too long a period of time and I don`t buy at all that the writers weren`t aware of that. 

I`m just happy Yockey apparently missed that group meeting because his recent episode was sorely needed for me. 

Ditto!!!!!

[Idahoforspn]

Personally, I think the deconstructing of Dean began seriously last year. This year it is just in epic proportions. I am hopeful for the last few episodes. Jensen said he likes  episode 22 so at least we should get one decent Dean episode still. I'm a little worried he said he hoped they didn't cut to much of it. It is still possible a lot of the good Dean stuff ends up on the cutting room floor. 

[MysteryGuest]

Dean has a past with Mary, and because of that, he also has expectations as to what a relationship with her now should be like.  Consequently, he's more disappointed/angry/hurt that it hasn't happened.  Sam has no such expectations, because he has no past history with her, and can therefore more easily accept who she is now and what she's willing to give.  Neither is wrong, but their perspectives are different.

I don't know that Mary never calls Sam, or that he never calls her, we just haven't been privy to that interaction.  I do think Dean probably reaches out to her more often, because his past with her makes him a bit "needier" of her attention.  I don't mean that in a bad or weak way, I just think it's natural he'd keep trying to recapture the relationship he lost.  

As for Mary calling and not texting that she was in trouble, I don't really have an issue with it.  Dean was regularly checking his phone for messages, so had he and Sam not been in a bit of trouble themselves, he'd have either answered her calls, or received her messages right away.  They've been warned that there's a problem, and if they're unable to reach her back by phone, I would hope they would just go look for her.  Of course, that will depend on what the writers have planned and how long they want to drag out the drama.

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I apologized for reacting so strongly to your original post. We are just going to have to disagree. I agree Mary's return should also strongly affect Sam and that should not be dismissed. However, I also think that Dean's four years with his mother which caused him to  put her on a pedestal is why Dean's connection is stronger. Also, he has spent a lot more time with his Mom in early show too. He time traveled back without Sam for a whole episode and then there was the djin (how do you spell the name of the genie?) episode. Dean has always had the "what could have been" thoughts because he experienced a little of it as a child. JMO

I think this Sam and Mary vs. Dean and Mary debate is due to how they've handled Mary and a symptom of the other problems in this season as well.  The human interactions between our characters just haven't been there the way they need to be to make as compelling of a story as we normally get (I acknowledge not everyone thinks this and respect that).  Fans on both sides of the divide want more than we've been given.

On the one hand, it makes sense for Sam to be awkward around Mary and not really know how to engage with her as his mother.  It's why his scene with her at the end of Mamma Mia was so sweet.  On the other hand, buried in there somewhere, Sam should feel some kind of resentment for her.  It should be a complicated dynamic.  If she hadn't made her deal, Sam and Dean wouldn't have been born, but because she didn't do anything (seemingly - or at least it hasn't been brought up yet) to prevent Azazel from showing up 10 years later, Sam was infected with Azazel's demon blood.  It's something that made him feel unclean throughout much of his life.  It wasn't just the hunting that Dean and John bonded over that made Sam feel like an outsider, it was something dark he could sense about himself that was still there as late as season 8 when he was doing the trials and said that they were purifying him.  The only time I can think of that this conflict was hinted at was in American Nightmare when it was Sam vs. Magda's Mom.

We've seen Sam be awkward with Mary, in the past and in season 12.  We've seen him give into his temptation to work with the BMoL (something he was inclined to do after Vince Vicente died, or he wouldn't have called Mick and hung up in LOTUS) because she said it was okay for him to do.  We've seen him play peacemaker between she and Dean, because he doesn't want to scare her off.  There's plenty there for Mary and Sam, but it's very subtle, and it has barely been addressed.  

Having said that, it would make sense for Dean to be the one who has the most direct contact with Mary.  He's always been more wrapped up in Mary.  What was the button Sam knew to push in The Pilot to get under Dean's skin?

Dean: You have a responsibility to - 

Sam: To Dad? And his crusade? If it weren't for pictures I wouldn't even know what Mom looks like. And what difference would it make? Even if we do find the thing that killed her, Mom's gone. And she isn't coming back.

Dean: Don't talk about her like that.

Dean's one wish with the djinn, as you said idahoforspn, was that his Mom didn't die.  One of his best memories was taking care of his Mom when John walked out . . . then she gave him pie.  I've thought for a while now that's part of the reason he loves pie so much.  He associates it with Mary.  He has the memories of her that Sam doesn't have.  They were just apparently all wrong.

He should feel the same kind of complexity about her deal that Sam does now that he has her back.  If she hadn't made that deal he and Sam wouldn't be born, but at the same time, she wasn't as prepared as she should have been when Azazel came back.  She didn't tell John about hunting or the deal or anything else that may have prepared him for what happened.  Dean got no childhood after Mary died.  He watched his Dad change from the guy we saw at the start of the pilot into what we ultimately got with John.  Dean watched his Mom burn on the ceiling, or he at least saw enough to know what happened to her, because he stopped talking for a while.  He only started talking again, because he knew he had to be brave for his Mom . . . it's why he was brave when it came to hunting.  Doing what he thought she'd want him to do and finding out it's so not what she wants him to do to the point that she'd distance herself from them, tell them that the BMoL way is better than the only way of hunting Dean has ever known, and go on her one-woman crusade to kill all the monsters, so he doesn't have to do it anymore . . . There's definitely more there for Dean and Mary, but it's barely been addressed outside of The Raid.  And it is so Dean to be dealing with that and still want to contact her/stay in touch with her.  

Both Sam fans and Dean fans are getting something, but I don't think it's as much as either really wants, and I'd say there's a certain amount of feeling that time is running out and that it's not all going to be addressed before the show decides to kill her off, so it exacerbates the problem.  Whether or not she will be killed off soon or not, I don't know, but the finale is fast approaching, and who knows what they'll do in the finale?  

Edited May 6, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[shang yiet]

Quote

I apologized for reacting so strongly to your original post. We are just going to have to disagree. I agree Mary's return should also strongly affect Sam and that should not be dismissed. However, I also think that Dean's four years with his mother which caused him to  put her on a pedestal is why Dean's connection is stronger. Also, he has spent a lot more time with his Mom in early show too. He time traveled back without Sam for a whole episode and then there was the djin (how do you spell the name of the genie?) episode. Dean has always had the "what could have been" thoughts because he experienced a little of it as a child. JMO

Oh, that's OK. I myself have over-reacted quite a few times in the past. Forget about it. I hope you and I get the balance we want.

Actually, Dean's reaction and relationship with Mary is not the problem (for me). It's the lack of in Sam's case that I don't like. You can find valid reasons for Dean's connection and I can find equally valid reasons why Sam should also have a connection so that's not the point. The writers can swing it any way they like. They want Sam to have the connection, bingo, they can just show it. It won't take anything away from Dean.

Quote

There's plenty there for Mary and Sam, but it's very subtle, and it has barely been addressed.  

Exactly. So very subtle.

Edited May 6, 2017 by shang yiet

[rue721]

51 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'd say there's a certain amount of feeling that time is running out and that it's not all going to be addressed before the show decides to kill her off, so it exacerbates the problem

Honestly, I think the question of whether they'll each be able to really connect with her before she's horrifically killed (again) has produced the most organic and effective dramatic tension that the show has managed to create for a long while.

Can't say I'm enjoying it wholeheartedly, because it's, y'know, tense. But I appreciate it. IMO the show is actually doing a pretty good job with the slow burn. Most shows nowadays (maybe ever) don't have the patience.

And I think that it's interesting to be so deep in Sam and Dean's perspectives, in that you've got to think that they're each just waiting for her to be taken away from them again, too. It's easy to empathize when meanwhile, as a viewer, you're wondering the same thing that the characters would presumably be -- how long do they have with her? Who is she really? Etc.

[Idahoforspn]

29 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

 They want Sam to have the connection, bingo, they can just show it. It won't take anything away from Dean

And that's where we have to disagree. Dean has very little story line and very little contribution this year. His only story seems to be his relationship with Mom and his worrying about Cas so if you take away even a little bit of his storyline ( he is the one always reaching out to Mom and is the point of contact) then it does take something away from the little bit he has going. If they want to give Sam more of the Mom storyline, then they need to give Dean something else to make up for it. Maybe he could actually come up with a plan instead of having to ask his brother what to do for once. I really don't think a new viewer would realize Sam is the younger brother this year. He is being written as a classic older brother this year I M O..  Being on screen while a story takes place is not necessarily the same thing as being  relevant to the story. So we will have to agree to disagree. I do appreciate your viewpoint but I just don't see it that way.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Bessie]

@rue721, I'm replying in the Mary thread to your post, again. Sorry to keep jumping around, but I don't view Mary's relationships with her sons as a Dean vs Sam issue so my replies don't fit in this thread. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, shang yiet said:

DittyDotDot - I have to disagree with you. For years, I've seen the 'Sam has no memories of Mary' explanation to explain away why every time, Dean is the one with more visible reactions/stronger feelings/bigger emotional impact. And now Mary's return is supposed to have not much impact on Sam because he can't remember her and she might as well be dead anyway? She's his mother. Might as well hand Mary's storyline and all the emotions straight to Dean. I know that's not what you meant but that's how I feel. Grr! Now I feel irritated again at Mary not even trying to call Sam when she couldn't reach Dean.

I wasn't speaking the show as a whole, but this particular situation, the not reaching out to Mary. I think Sam just doesn't think about calling Mary because he has never been in the habit of calling Mary. I think Mary's resurrection is having just as much of an impact on Sam as it has on Dean--and been clearly shown on the show, IMO--just in different ways. Sam is just more of an internal person than Dean, IMO.

But, that was my entire point. Sam shouldn't be reacting to Mary just like Dean has because Sam is a different person with a different personality. IMO, we need the writers to write scenes for story/character purposes, not because they're keeping a scorecard of how many times Dean has gotten to be the one to call Mary, so we must make sure Sam calls her just as many times. To me, that's not balance, that's shoddy storytelling.

For what it's worth, I'm not someone who is prone to keeping in touch with people--even my mother--so I just don't think it's particularly strange that Sam doesn't call Mary nor do I see it as any sort of bias on the show's part. My mom will sometimes call me and irritably ask me if I'm still alive because I haven't called her for a few weeks. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I lose track of time quite easily and don't realize it's been weeks since I let her know I was still up and kicking. And, quite frankly, I'm not one for just calling someone to chit chat. So, I think Sam's just not a chit-chatter either whereas Dean is.

ETA: BTW, both my sisters talk with my mom at least once a week. ::shrugs::

Edited May 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Just now, Bessie said:

@rue721, I'm replying in the Mary thread to your post, again. Sorry to keep jumping around, but I don't view Mary's relationships with her sons as a Dean vs Sam issue so my replies don't fit in this thread. 

You're 100% right.

I'm just being lazy, replying to posts from this thread IN this thread. Won't do that anymore. :)

[shang yiet]

For me, there should be more Sam/Mary interaction regardless of what is happening or not happening with Dean. This has always been my wish from the start of this season even before Dean killed Hitler, even before Mary met Sam this season. I have wanted Sam to have more of the emotional arc way for ten seasons now. So I hope I get my wish and you get yours.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

And that's where we have to disagree. Dean has very little story line and very little contribution this year. His only story seems to be his relationship with Mom and his worrying about Cas so if you take away even a little bit of his storyline ( he is the one always reaching out to Mom and is the point of contact) then it does take something away from the little bit he has going. If they want to give Sam more of the Mom storyline, then they need to give Dean something else to make up for it. Being on screen while a story takes place is not necessarily the same thing as being  relevant to the story. So we will agree to disagree.

If you want my lemonade from lemons perspective of this season, I think that Dean's story line is tied to the Colt.  The Colt was turned into a symbol of betrayal this season.  Mary betrayed them to get it from Ramiel.  Sam used the Colt to kill the Alpha.  Then he betrayed Dean by having him work for the BMoL for weeks without telling him, but he did tell him without Dean finding out another way first.  After they get the Colt back from the BMoL, Sam gets to use it in full view of Dean, because he's chosen a side with Mary and the BMoL, but he's pretty open about it.  Other than that, it's stayed with Dean under his pillow, hidden.  He doesn't get to use it before Cas, his final life line, betrays him to get it.  When Dean shows up at the motel and Cas opens the door holding the Colt, Dean pointedly says, "Yeah, that's mine."  It means something to Dean and the audience.  It represents sacrifice, family, hope.  It then gets destroyed after the full circle of betrayal around Dean was complete.  

To me, the scene they used for the last episode's promo wasn't about Dean worrying about Cas and asking if Sam could fix the Colt.  To me, it was about Dean being unable to accept that Cas betrayed them, not just to get the Colt, but in the way Cas chose the nephilim over them and knocked them out at the playground.  Dean kept blaming the nephilim, because he didn't want to believe it was Cas, and you could see that Sam didn't think that but didn't want to say it.  In fact, when Sam comes up with a suggestion, it's 'if we want to have some kind of shot at finding Cas, we have to think like him,' i.e. he's still Cas.  Dean straight away is like How?  He's not Cas anymore.  The baby's got Cas all messed up.  He refuses to believe that Cas not only knocked them out, but is also still on the run from them.  IMO, he wasn't just asking Sam to fix the Colt.  He was asking if this final betrayal could be fixed.  Sam doesn't know.  I also thought the shot of Dean calling Mary was good.  He was alone and trying to find a life line.

I think he's spiraling because of his issues with Mary, working with the BMoL, and Cas.  I think it's why he's been indulging in hard alcohol (empty bottles of it all over the place), women, and burgers.  I think it's very much the way he acted when he had the MoC to pretend like he was okay when he was really the furthest thing from it.  Unlike that year, we don't have Sam saying, 'He's getting worse,' to tell us he's getting worse, and we also don't have Dean expressing it in much more than actions and the odd bit of dialogue, like we maybe got in Season 4 or 5 when he was struggling, because this season hasn't had either Winchester's POV.

I think Dean is not successful under the BMoL, and I think that's what we're supposed to be seeing with him not killing anything on screen for such a long time.  Since they've been working with the BMoL, Sam is the one getting the kills, because he is thriving under the BMoL, and until this last case, which wasn't a BMoL case, Dean didn't get the kill for that reason.  I'm guessing that now that the BMoL shackles can come off, we'll get our Dean back.

What's Sam's arc?  Sam is trying to find his own way, perhaps because he feels emboldened by Mary.  Dean told him to pick a side, and he did.  Like I said, Sam is flourishing under the BMoL, and Mary is the one that said it was okay for them to work with the BMoL.  What's he going to do when everything the BMoL have been doing behind their backs comes to light?  What's he going to do now that he's found his way of hunting, and it's different (even though it doesn't really look all that different to us, the structure is very different) than Dean's way of hunting?

Other than that, Dean and Sam are really only involved in the nephilim story line, because it's the only one they currently know, but the 'real BMoL' and Lucifer story lines are about to converge with theirs, and then we'll see what happens, I guess. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

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If you want my lemonade from lemons perspective of this season, I think that Dean's story line is tied to the Colt.  The Colt was turned into a symbol of betrayal this season.  Mary betrayed them to get it from Ramiel.  Sam used the Colt to kill the Alpha.  Then he betrayed Dean by having him work for the BMoL for weeks without telling him, but he did tell him without Dean finding out another way first.  The Colt shows up with Mick.  After they get it back, Sam gets to use it in full view of Dean, because he's chosen a side with Mary and the BMoL, but he's pretty open about it.  Other than that, it's stayed with Dean under his pillow, hidden.  He doesn't get to use it before Cas, his final life line, betrays him to get it.  When Dean shows up at the motel and Cas opens the door holding the Colt, Dean pointedly says, "Yeah, that's mine."  It means something to Dean and the audience.  It represents sacrifice, family, hope.  It then gets destroyed after the full circle of betrayal around Dean was complete.  

I don`t think it was anything approaching a story for Dean or even intended to be one but if it was, I found it to be the equivalent of someone rubbing salt into an open wound. Like everything with the Colt this Season just added insult to injury, including the scene in the last episode. Thouroughly unenjoyable for me. 

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I'm guessing that now that the BMoL shackles can come off, we'll get our Dean back.

 I certainly hope so. Cringing in embarassment when your favourite character is onscreen because of the way they are portrayed isn`t particularly fun. If that had been the character from the beginning, I never would have latched onto him. Granted, I don`t think the show would have lasted very long either but yikes.   

[Idahoforspn]

27 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

If you want my lemonade from lemons perspective of this season, I think that Dean's story line is tied to the Colt.  The Colt was turned into a symbol of betrayal this season.  Mary betrayed them to get it from Ramiel.  Sam used the Colt to kill the Alpha.  Then he betrayed Dean by having him work for the BMoL for weeks without telling him, but he did tell him without Dean finding out another way first.  After they get the Colt back from the BMoL, Sam gets to use it in full view of Dean, because he's chosen a side with Mary and the BMoL, but he's pretty open about it.  Other than that, it's stayed with Dean under his pillow, hidden.  He doesn't get to use it before Cas, his final life line, betrays him to get it.  When Dean shows up at the motel and Cas opens the door holding the Colt, Dean pointedly says, "Yeah, that's mine."  It means something to Dean and the audience.  It represents sacrifice, family, hope.  It then gets destroyed after the full circle of betrayal around Dean was complete.  

To me, the scene they used for the last episode's promo wasn't about Dean worrying about Cas and asking if Sam could fix the Colt.  To me, it was about Dean being unable to accept that Cas betrayed them, not just to get the Colt, but in the way Cas chose the nephilim over them and knocked them out at the playground.  Dean kept blaming the nephilim, because he didn't want to believe it was Cas, and you could see that Sam didn't think that but didn't want to say it.  In fact, when Sam comes up with a suggestion, it's 'if we want to have some kind of shot at finding Cas, we have to think like him,' i.e. he's still Cas.  Dean straight away is like How?  He's not Cas anymore.  The baby's got Cas all messed up.  He refuses to believe that Cas not only knocked them out, but is also still on the run from them.  IMO, he wasn't just asking Sam to fix the Colt.  He was asking if this final betrayal could be fixed.  Sam doesn't know.  I also thought the shot of Dean calling Mary was good.  He was alone and trying to find a life line.

I think he's spiraling because of his issues with Mary, working with the BMoL, and Cas.  I think it's why he's been indulging in hard alcohol (empty bottles of it all over the place), women, and burgers.  I think it's very much the way he acted when he had the MoC to pretend like he was okay when he was really the furthest thing from it.  Unlike that year, we don't have Sam saying, 'He's getting worse,' to tell us he's getting worse, and we also don't have Dean expressing it in much more than actions and the odd bit of dialogue, like we maybe got in Season 4 or 5 when he was struggling, because this season hasn't had either Winchester's POV.

I think Dean is not successful under the BMoL, and I think that's what we're supposed to be seeing with him not killing anything on screen for such a long time.  Since they've been working with the BMoL, Sam is the one getting the kills, because he is thriving under the BMoL, and until this last case, which wasn't a BMoL case, Dean didn't get the kill for that reason.  I'm guessing that now that the BMoL shackles can come off, we'll get our Dean back.

What's Sam's arc?  Sam is trying to find his own way, perhaps because he feels emboldened by Mary.  Dean told him to pick a side, and he did.  Like I said, Sam is flourishing under the BMoL, and Mary is the one that said it was okay for them to work with the BMoL.  What's he going to do when everything the BMoL have been doing behind their backs comes to light?  What's he going to do now that he's found his way of hunting, and it's different (even though it doesn't really look all that different to us, the structure is very different) than Dean's way of hunting?

Other than that, Dean and Sam are really only involved in the nephilim story line, because it's the only one they currently know, but the 'real BMoL' and Lucifer story lines are about to converge with theirs, and then we'll see what happens, I guess. 

And I am not giving the writers near that much credit. They use anvils not nuance.

[CluelessDrifter]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think it was anything approaching a story for Dean or even intended to be one but if it was, I found it to be the equivalent of someone rubbing salt into an open wound. Like everything with the Colt this Season just added insult to injury, including the scene in the last episode. Thouroughly unenjoyable for me. 

 I certainly hope so. Cringing in embarassment when your favourite character is onscreen because of the way they are portrayed isn`t particularly fun. If that had been the character from the beginning, I never would have latched onto him. Granted, I don`t think the show would have lasted very long either but yikes.   

Yeah, but it went on long enough that it had you wondering what was going on, didn't it?  There has to be a reason for that, and like I said, Dean didn't get a single on-screen kill from the time they started to knowingly work with the BMoL until this last episode when they went to help someone in a totally BMoL-unrelated case.  Also, in LOTUS, Sam is the one who held the magic egg they got from the BMoL. They may not have been working with the BMoL then, but they got the tech from them, and it's because of a call Sam made (and then hung up on).

I have no explanation for Dean not getting to kill Ramiel with Michael's lance other than a petty check-list to have Sam kill a YED the way Dean did . . . as Perez said in his interview.  That's the one that annoyed me the most.  The rest, well, I had to start looking for a reason for it, and that's what I came up with to explain it, because I didn't want to get so angry with the show that there was no way for me to go back to enjoying it again.  I appreciate that it's not pleasant to watch a show that makes you cringe in embarrassment, and I'm sorry that was your viewing experience, but I never cringed when I saw Dean on-screen.  I was looking for the little acting tells that would give me his story.  Maybe I imagined them though.  That's totally possible.  I was looking really hard for something . . . anything.  :)