S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

My pick is Gabriel. I can totally see Mr. Serious Michael not only to kill him but to make him suffer :P

I was thinking about Gabriel too.  Maybe that's main reason he went into hiding other than being tired of the family feud.

[NoWillToResist]

On 2/16/2017 at 9:13 PM, bearcatfan said:

LOL at Cas sniffing Mandy.

According to the actress who played Mandy, that sniff was unscripted. Totally ad-libbed by Misha. :)

 

On 2/17/2017 at 4:11 PM, catrox14 said:

Crowley saved Cas to solve his demon!Dean disaster. But I think he might still have some kind of designs on Dean or a minimum can't stand the thought that Dean hates him. I think he's always wanted Dean to respect him or at least like him. I think if he saves Cas, Dean will appreciate him again and not think he's such a bad guy.

And I think he has another agenda. It reminds me a bit of getting the First Blade into Dean's hands.  He might have another goal to get the Michael Spear into Dean's hands.  Maybe Cas was a casualty he didn't expect but if he saved him he garners some cache with Dean for saving Dean's BF..F  and it puts the weapon in Dean's hands. 

I think Crowley is inordinately fond of Dean and when Dean went off on him, Crowley decided to try and help him by saving Cas.

And on that note, on to the big question:

Can someone with closed captioning please tell me whether Crowley referred to Cas as "quiet boy" or "choir boy"? It's driving me bonkers. :)

On 2/20/2017 at 0:53 PM, catrox14 said:

What I really need to know is whether that grace that came from the LoM (Lance of Michael) is actually some of Michael's grace or what? Or did it just repower Cas' own grace?  Did it heal Cas back up to fully powered angel with  undamaged wings. What did it actually do to Cas?

I'm puzzled by an angel's ability to heal...or more specifically the speed/efficiency of the healing. Cas appeared to be spewing up liquified innards but as soon as the spear was out, *poof* he's completely fixed? Hell, he's been slower to bounce back after a fist fight with a baddie. I find it very inconsistent...

Edited March 1, 2017 by NoWillToResist

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Now, see...this is what happens when you rewatch episodes and don't post your thoughts right away.  They get all jumbled up together.  Thanks @catrox14 for setting me straight (If Only she could work such wonders on the rest of my life!) .  A couple extras here:

• I wondered if Wally (::sniff:: RIP Wally) got a hunter's funeral but:

Spoiler

in The Raid there was mention of burning Wally's body.  So answered.

• I think I've mentioned this in my other posts, but it really stood out to me in the sequence that was "Mother Mary" (ie from Mary's POV) that she noticed Wally asking Sam and Dean about the BMoL.  None of the other perspectives contained that bit of dialogue.  Also, Mary called Wally.  Again, I have to wonder how Mary got Wally's number.  How old was Wally?  Were they of a similar age and he was he an old contact?  I didn't think so, but could be wrong.  I still think the BMoL purposely gave her his number to call, hoping either that the efficiency of the raid would win him over or that he'd be a casualty and so one less dissenter.  win-win.  
• The caller ID on Mary's phone when the BMoL called her was "Hobbits".  Is Mary a Tolkien fan?

[SueB]

23 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now, see...this is what happens when you rewatch episodes and don't post your thoughts right away.  They get all jumbled up together.  Thanks @catrox14 for setting me straight (If Only she could work such wonders on the rest of my life!) .  A couple extras here:

• I wondered if Wally (::sniff:: RIP Wally) got a hunter's funeral but:

  Hide contents

 

• The caller ID on Mary's phone when the BMoL called her was "Hobbits".  Is Mary a Tolkien fan?

I laughed at that. It would make sense she would like Tolkien -- no way she's seen the movies.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

I laughed at that. It would make sense she would like Tolkien -- no way she's seen the movies.

I'm not quite sure I understand this.  There is something niggling at the edges of my brain, but I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.  I've read all the books, but wouldn't consider myself a "fan" the way other friends of mine would consider themselves.  I'm not sure why it would make sense that Mary, with what little we know of her, would like Tolkien, or why she would choose that as a nickname for the BMoL.  From her era, why not Dr. Who?  Or The Man From U.N.C.L.E or The Saint?

[catrox14]

I assumed Hobbits was just because Mick is a small British guy and the live in a small base.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not quite sure I understand this.  There is something niggling at the edges of my brain, but I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.  I've read all the books, but wouldn't consider myself a "fan" the way other friends of mine would consider themselves.  I'm not sure why it would make sense that Mary, with what little we know of her, would like Tolkien, or why she would choose that as a nickname for the BMoL.  From her era, why not Dr. Who?  Or The Man From U.N.C.L.E or The Saint?

Even though I know he wrote it earlier, I've always associated The Lord of the Rings with the '60's.  It was sort of a counter-culture phenomenon.  I read it because it was a fantasy story (and every year at Christmas time for MANY years). But in the '60's and '70's it was anti-establishment, pro-Earth kind of a story with good vs evil.  And I think Mary would have been attracted to that.  Not John, BTW, but Mary.  Mary was the Beatles and Led Zepplin. The whole Tolkien 'verse was celebrated by the peace, love and understanding crowd.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But in the '60's and '70's it was anti-establishment, pro-Earth kind of a story with good vs evil.  And I think Mary would have been attracted to that.  Not John, BTW, but Mary.  Mary was the Beatles and Led Zepplin. The whole Tolkien 'verse was celebrated by the peace, love and understanding crowd.

Really interesting. I had no idea.

[DittyDotDot]

When I was growing up, the kids who read Tolkien were considered book nerds, so I would guess she's using "Hobbit" for Mick because Mick is the "book nerd" of the operation. Makes me wonder what she's got Ketch listed as.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

But in the '60's and '70's it was anti-establishment, pro-Earth kind of a story with good vs evil.  And I think Mary would have been attracted to that.  Not John, BTW, but Mary.  Mary was the Beatles and Led Zepplin. The whole Tolkien 'verse was celebrated by the peace, love and understanding crowd.

I've never thought of Mary being part of the peace, love and understanding crowd. Maybe she was, but it's just not anything I've ever considered. I feel like she was more of the middle-of-the-road crowd. I mean, look at The Beatles, they weren't particularly out there, but they weren't entirely main stream either. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Really interesting. I had no idea.

Me neither!

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

When I was growing up, the kids who read Tolkien were considered book nerds, so I would guess she's using "Hobbit" for Mick because Mick is the "book nerd" of the operation. Makes me wonder what she's got Ketch listed as.

I've never thought of Mary being part of the peace, love and understanding crowd. Maybe she was, but it's just not anything I've ever considered. I feel like she was more of the middle-of-the-road crowd. I mean, look at The Beatles, they weren't particularly out there, but they weren't entirely main stream either. 

The first part makes more sense to me.  :)  I mean, book nerds (I was one) and Mick being 'brains' of the operations.  But he doesn't quite fit that mold either, imo.

I agree about the second part and Mary.  Although the Beatles in their later years (complete with guru!) were very peace, love, and understanding, no?  And maybe if I squint my eyes, I could imagine that would appeal to Mary back in the early to mid-70's, with the anti-vietnam stuff (all tied in with the peace, love, and understanding, I think.) perhaps as a rebellion against how she was raised.  But then, if Mary was attracted to that philosophy at that time, then it makes little sense to me that she would also be attracted to John: a proud ex-Marine who served in Vietnam, right?

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But then, if Mary was attracted to that philosophy at that time, then it makes little sense to me that she would also be attracted to John: a proud ex-Marine who served in Vietnam, right?

Yeah, that's why I say middle-of-the-road. I think she could walk either camp and see there's benefits and drawbacks to both, but also not fully-identify with either camp. I guess just don't think of Mary as having a clear label, she's like Dean in that way for me. They're both people who seem to fit no matter where they go or what they do.

Edited March 8, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

  But then, if Mary was attracted to that philosophy at that time, then it makes little sense to me that she would also be attracted to John: a proud ex-Marine who served in Vietnam, right?

Which is possibly why they hated each other to begin with and Cupid created the "meet cute".

[rue721]

Mary comes off to me like a bit of a loner. Less like she can belong anywhere, and more like there's nowhere she really belongs. Even in the time travel episodes, she seemed like a bit of an outsider in 1970s Lawrence IMO.

I can see Mary leaning a bit hippie or counterculture just based on feeling like an outsider, and feeling drawn to other outsiders, too.

Although conversely, I think that what drew her to John was that he WASN'T an outsider. He could speak her language, but at the same time, he was a "boy next door" type himself. Salt of the earth. Etc. (ETA:  I think she wanted that, because she wanted to be "normal" and to put down roots, have a stable life, etc).

I can also TOTALLY see someone who likes Zeppelin being a Tolkien nerd as well. Although even as I say that, I love Zeppelin and still can't make it three pages into a single Tolkein book so. ;)

Edited March 8, 2017 by rue721

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I can also TOTALLY see someone who likes Zeppelin being a Tolkien nerd as well. Although even as I say that, I love Zeppelin and still can't make it three pages into a single Tolkein book so. ;)

You're dead to me.

JUST KIDDING. (but I did gasp, NGL). 

Lyrics from 3rd verse of Led Zeplins' Ramblin On':

I ain't tellin' no lie
Mine's a tale that can't be told
My freedom I hold dear
How years ago in days of old
When magic filled the air
'T was in the darkest depths of Mordor
I met a girl so fair
But Gollum, and the evil one 
crept up and slipped away with her
Her, her, yeah
Ain't nothing I can do, no

Direct Lord of the Rings reference.  Doesn't get much more of a connection than that. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by SueB
ETA: Up until I copied the lyrics just now I always said evil WARG not evil one... because NERD

[catrox14]

Honestly, I have to say IMO, if Mary is versed on the Hobbits, then she would know they are peaceful stoners who seek only to live a simple life in the Shire.

Frodo and Samwise are pressed into service to save the world. (That doesn't sound like Sam and Dean at all....).

She can't possibly see the BMOL as honorable Hobbits. I mean she KNOWS what they did to Sam, that should be enough to put them as Sauron or the Orcs in her phone. And if she truly  thinks the BMOL are like Hobbits then she really has drank their kool aid.  If they call themselves the Hobbits and she's just going along with it for her own safety that's acceptable.

I still prefer my headcanon that she's mocking Mick.

[SueB]

Oh I TOTALLY think she's mocking Mick.  Just because she READ the Hobbit and LOTRs doesn't mean she sees these guys as peaceful stoners.  If anything, she sees them as maybe a little naive.  But, I think she likes the advantage they give her. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Oh I TOTALLY think she's mocking Mick.  Just because she READ the Hobbit and LOTRs doesn't mean she sees these guys as peaceful stoners.  If anything, she sees them as maybe a little naive.  But, I think she likes the advantage they give her. 

I'm no LOTR nerd that's for sure, so I'm probably missing some deeper thing here, but I mean surely she can't really see them as naive given she knows what they did to Sam, what they were likely going to do to Dean, and what they intend to do with torturing the traitor and potentially committing genocide. I mean if she thinks their naive, then I have to say she's a fool. 
 

From 12.14

Spoiler

I don't know what kind of advantage she thinks they can give her considering they were totally played by the Alpha Vamp. OR it was a setup to get Sam to make them bullets. I dunno.

[rue721]

BTW an ex of mine used to put everyone in his phone under weird nicknames so that nobody could tell from glancing at his phone who was actually calling him, or could get anyone's number from his contacts list, etc. In his case, it was pretty innocuous -- stuff like, he had his mom under a funky name, his sister was under a funky name, etc. I forget what the nicknames actually were, but it was really random stuff he happened to find funny and that wasn't related to the people he was referring to at all. Like Boopadoop for his sister or something.

But anyway, maybe Mary put Mick under a dumb name for privacy, too? Not necessarily because she thought he was so hobbit-like. Beyond being a little English guy with a beard, who lives in a bunker buried out in the countryside somewhere, and who possibly has big feet and/or a smoking habit lol.

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

JUST KIDDING. (but I did gasp, NGL). 

I uhhh I did enjoy the first LOTR movie back in the day? :P

ETA: although Mary has Sam and Dean in her phone under their real names though, right? So maybe she just didn't know Mick's name when she got his number and this isn't about privacy at all LOL.

Edited March 8, 2017 by rue721

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Which is possibly why they hated each other to begin with and Cupid created the "meet cute".

Good point!

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She can't possibly see the BMOL as honorable Hobbits. I mean she KNOWS what they did to Sam, that should be enough to put them as Sauron or the Orcs in her phone. And if she truly  thinks the BMOL are like Hobbits then she really has drank their kool aid.  If they call themselves the Hobbits and she's just going along with it for her own safety that's acceptable.

Orcs would have made much more sense.  I don't think the BMoL call themselves Hobbits.  That makes even less sense to me than Mary using it as their caller ID.  Then again, they would be egotistical enough to see themselves as honorable Hobbits.   But would Mary just go along with that?  Maybe it was easier than disagreeing.  Or, like you said, she drank the kool aid.

I'm getting a real kick out of the fact that this show makes us discuss Tolkien and Led Zeppelin in the same conversation!  Lol.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I uhhh I did enjoy the first LOTR movie back in the day? :P

Thank you. I feel better now. :)

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm getting a real kick out of the fact that this show makes us discuss Tolkien and Led Zeppelin in the same conversation!  Lol.

Yup, me, too.

[AwesomO4000]

Hee, I love, love, love the LOTR movies (though I've not yet read the books) but - and don't hate me @SueB - I don't really like Led Zepplin. Well, there's that one song about the sun refusing to shine and there will always be you and me, but generally nope. Kinda like Rush - who are my hubby's favorite actually - where I like one or two songs and the rest, my eyes kinda glaze over, even though I realize the songs have a lot of meaning and such, but his voice grates on me... and yes that applies to both bands *ducks in case of flying tomatoes* (Rush is definitely a "guys" band)

But then again, there's no counting for my taste anyway considering I love Bon Jovi - all incarnations. Confession for my hubby - he likes the new guitar player, Phil X, even better than Richie Sambora. I couldn't say, not being as much of a guitar gal myself. (Guitar solos generally don't do much for me).

Edited March 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee, I love, love, love the LOTR movies (though I've not yet read the books)

I read the books way back when and I found them hard to get through. So, IMHO if you've seen the movies, especially the DVD versions, you're good.

Here you go: Sparknotes  :)   http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/fellowship/ 

[catrox14]

So I was rewatching the episode and noticed something in the Cas near death scene.

I had a moment where I thought Cas might have been confessing that he loved Mary...like love/love her.  I say that because he looked towards her out of corner of his eye, and then looks down and says "I love you". Looks at Dean for a beat....then looks at both of them and says, "I love you all" 

Now I still think it was a separate moment of saying it to Dean but man upon re-watch, it gave me a little pause. That might explain Dean's looking away in a bit of a stunned way.  dunno. It was weird. 

[catrox14]

Interview with Dick Speight Jr

Https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/behind-the-scenes-of-supernatural-with-director-richard-speight-jr/

[Katy M]

So, I was kind of half-watching this again when it was on last night and I noticed what others noticed, yet I missed.  The missing virgins, so that does make sense about Sam and Dean wanting to hunt that demon.  And the Colt glowing when Ramiel opened the box.  I totally missed that the first time and when someone else mentioned it I thought they meant it happened at the end when Mr. Ketch took it.  So, yeah, that was weird, but I think it was just supposed to be like a "this is a great object" moment and maybe not that it literally glowed.  And, at the end, when Mary said one of her boys almost died, I kind of think she meant Cas.  It's weird, but it just doesn't make any sense to me any other way.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, at the end, when Mary said one of her boys almost died, I kind of think she meant Cas.  It's weird, but it just doesn't make any sense to me any other way.

I

I thought it was strange for Mary to refer to Cas as one of her boys. It wasn't earned at all IMO. They were not around each other THAT much. Maybe since she saw their big reunion hug in 12.1, that Cas was close with Dean, and then saw how loyal they were to each other throughout, she decided that if Cas was family to them, he was family to her. 

Or the other option is that Dean was on the verge of being stabbed by Ramiel until Sam intervened so she meant Dean. That one makes more sense to me but given the focus on Cas in the episode I guess it was Cas.

Edited March 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I

I thought it was strange for Mary to refer to Cas as one of her boys. It wasn't earned at all IMO. They were not around each other THAT much. Maybe since she saw their big reunion hug in 12.1, that Cas was close with Dean, and then saw how loyal they were to each other throughout, she decided that if Cas was family to them, he was family to her. 

Or the other option is that Dean was on the verge of being stabbed by Ramiel until Sam intervened so she meant Dean. That one makes more sense to me but given the focus on Cas in the episode I guess it was Cas.

I agree it wasn't really earnt! The only thing I've got (in addition to what you've said) is that perhaps the writers wanted us to believe they bonded during the six weeks the brothers were imprisoned and she accepted him as family then. 

The ironic (and sad for the brothers) thing is that Mary has actually shown more openness and empathy towards Cas than her own sons so far. Think of her opening up to him in the Foundry compared to her dismissal of Sam during this episode, or her attempts to comfort him while the boys were missing in First Born.

I don't know what the writers are going for with this, maybe Mary finds it easier to open herself to a stranger than the sons she fears possess expectation she can't meet, but it's just something I've observed. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

I agree it wasn't really earnt! The only thing I've got (in addition to what you've said) is that perhaps the writers wanted us to believe they bonded during the six weeks the brothers were imprisoned and she accepted him as family then. 

The ironic (and sad for the brothers) thing is that Mary has actually shown more openness and empathy towards Cas than her own sons so far. Think of her opening up to him in the Foundry compared to her dismissal of Sam during this episode, or her attempts to comfort him while the boys were missing in First Born.

I don't know what the writers are going for with this, maybe Mary finds it easier to open herself to a stranger than the sons she fears possess expectation she can't meet, but it's just something I've observed. 

I had a brief thought that if she did mean Cas, that maybe they got a little TOO close during that 6 weeks, an encounter born of mutual worry etc, but then I slapped myself and said surely the show won't go there.  I thought this because of how sheepish Cas looks when he says "I love you"  and he kind of glances towards Mary before looking at Dean and then later Sam. It was just a brief fleeting moment of WAIT ONE FLERPING MINUTE.  But that's a HUGE reach on my part and I can't believe the show would go there. I mean SURELY NOT?!, but then I thought this show does some incredibly stupid things that I can't completely 100% rule it out. I mean I'm ruling it out at 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% but it's that infinitesimal chance that I  wouldn't put it past them.

[Wayward Son]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had a brief thought that if she did mean Cas, that maybe they got a little TOO close during that 6 weeks, an encounter born of mutual worry etc, but then I slapped myself and said surely the show won't go there.  I thought this because of how sheepish Cas looks when he says "I love you"  and he kind of glances towards Mary before looking at Dean and then later Sam. It was just a brief fleeting moment of WAIT ONE FLERPING MINUTE.  But that's a HUGE reach on my part and I can't believe the show would go there. I mean SURELY NOT?!, but then I thought this show does some incredibly stupid things that I can't completely 100% rule it out. I mean I'm ruling it out at 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% but it's that infinitesimal chance that I  wouldn't put it past them.

Well, um... I guess making him step daddy Cas would be one way to get the Destiel shippers to give up once and for all LMAO

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Well, um... I guess making him step daddy Cas would be one way to get the Destiel shippers to give up once and for all LMAO

I dunno...there might be case for daddy!kink shippers. LOL

[Wayward Son]

My reaction

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I had a brief thought that if she did mean Cas, that maybe they got a little TOO close during that 6 weeks

Oh no! ! Don't you dare!!

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

Oh no! ! Don't you dare!!

Hey, I slapped myself! LOL

[DeansDorkyAngel]

IMO this is one of the best episodes of this boring season.  I can rewatch it many times.  Great job! 

[SueB]

I just rewatched this.  I'm going to have to rank-order my overall Supernatural Series Top 10, but this is a contender.  It's definitely Top 20.

I think this was supposed to be a little Point A to Point B plot but it turned into an EPIC episode. With everything that happened, it could almost have been a finale.  Now the Tarantino POV jumps make no sense for a finale, but the amount of reveals and Cas in jeopardy were both big deals IMO.

And I LOVED the music and choices for the "Title Cards":
"The Wounded Angel" - both literally and emotionally
"Mother Mary" - not exactly motherly in her choices but still "Mom"
"Mr. Crowley" - in the tradition of "Mr White" or "Mr Pink"
A Real Barn Burner - it was
One More Thing - nice way to kick off the coda

[bettername2come]

I liked Wally. He was gone too soon. Oh, God, Cas actually smelled the waitress. I really think Wally is confused about how/why they're all walking in slow motion. I'm really amused that there's a demon that just wants to go night fishing. I love that Mary has the BMOL saved as Hobbits. Her sons really do take after her. I'm not crazy about the princes of hell concept taking away some of the specialness of Azazel, but the concept makes sense. I love when Crowley shows respect for what the Winchesters do. Crowley thrown through the barn is hilarious. Castiel said "I love you!" Someone on Team Free Will is capable of saying those three words in order! Crowley saved the day! Go logic! Although that weapon could've come in real handy for killing the devil. Did Mary just call Castiel one of her boys? I mean, he's got a few millennia on you, but that's really sweet. "Dukes of Haphazard" is a fairly accurate nickname. This is a good one. 

[Hanahope]

Wow, 10 pages on this episode.  I'm not reading it all.

So, first we have Knights of Hell, now we have Princes of hell.  I guess once those are all killed, we'll get, what, Principals of Hell?  Superintendents?  Presidents? Bishops?

I thought Azaezel was a knight, now he's a prince?

Kindof surprised Crowley helped out so much, or at least saving Cas after Ramiel was killed.

Seriously Mary, you believe the BMOL?  If they were so on the up and up, they would have given you one of their big toys.  I think they would be more than happy to have the Winchesters exterminated.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I thought Azaezel was a knight, now he's a prince?

It was never before specified exactly what type of demon Azazel was. The Princes are yellow-eyed demons.

[The Companion]

On 2/16/2017 at 9:36 PM, Mick Lady said:

I think it's five specific beings. We know Lucifer, so by extension Michael I would guess. But that would mean no archangels, and they're are several. Add Amara and God... oh Hell I don't know! Damn all of you for driving my crazy with this!!

Loved this episode though! Mick called The Colt from the beginning, so I hate him tonight.

Perhaps it is 5 surviving beings in this world? Because otherwise 5 may be low.

On 2/16/2017 at 9:49 PM, rue721 said:

Another category could be whales. I really can't see a whale being killed by that little gun. Dinosaurs would probably be tough to kill with it, too. Megafauna in general. But Megafauna are probably not included in the Big 5, if I'm being honest.

 

I am dying at the idea of them trying to take out the whales via colt. 😆 I can't help but write a Douglas Adams style dialogue in my head about it. 

Also, this is particularly funny after a recent episode of The Magicians. 

On 2/17/2017 at 12:34 PM, catrox14 said:

I think Dean (and Sam) both had deep emotional reactions. IMO, Dean didn't think angels were capable of feeling "love" per se.  I think  Dean was kind of in shock and taken aback that an angel could feel love for humans. Like really be able to say ' I love you" and mean it. 

IMO, Dean was of the mind that Cas would  be okay until he heard Cas say "Dean, I think I'm dying" and in that moment Dean's face just dropped. Something changed in him and his fear amped up to 10 along with his battle mode.  I think that's why he flipped out on Crowley and told Crowley to put up or shut up.  I think Crowley saved Cas for Dean personally. He didn't have to do that unless he has a bigger plan afoot that involves Cas.  With Crowley you never know.

And IMO, Dean telling Cas that they don't leave family behind IS Dean telling him he loves him too. Dean was willing to stay there with Cas until Cas passed away even if that meant that he would die.  And then once Cas was kind of recovered, IMO the look on Dean's face when he stepped right up to Cas and said "Let's go home" was him returning the love.  That's how I saw it anyway, upon 2nd watch.  YMMV

It struck me as strange at the time, too. When people say "I love you" you expect an "I love you too." I didn't see it as cold or nonreciprocal for the reasons you mention, but it was jarring for me.

On 2/17/2017 at 3:06 PM, Wynne88 said:

I would have an easier time with the idea that Mary is trying to make the world a safer place for Sam and Dean before getting herself killed and going back to heaven if there was ever any indication that she even liked them.  I've had more positive interactions with perfect strangers, including the occasional hug and breakfast.  The motivation just isn't showing.

It is really odd. This isn't the first time I felt like the show expected us to believe a motive or relationship without actually showing it to us. The most glaring example being Samelia (sorry to resurface that one) where we kept being told Sam was barely hanging on and where we kept being told they had some sweeping romance but the on screen interaction failed to deliver either. For my own sanity, at least for now, I am gonna try and go with it but her failure to give up the weapon did make me really angry.

On 2/17/2017 at 7:24 PM, Demented Daisy said:

Well, they do have a connection that he doesn't have with Sam and Dean -- namely, the 6 weeks Sam and Dean were imprisoned.  I would imagine working together to find them would have bonded Mary and Castiel in a way.

But, hey, mileage varies.

Same point as above. I think she was talking about Castiel but I think it was also unearned. I think you are correct that we are supposed to conclude there was more bonding there and/or she respects Castiel's relationship with the boys enough to consider him family too. 

On 2/17/2017 at 7:34 PM, ahrtee said:

She gave them more bullets (I don't think the gun needed fixing at that time, just more ammo).  Bobby had taken it apart to see how it worked, but he still used it to shoot Ruby (with a non-special bullet) when she showed up.

Then when Crowley gave them the gun back in Abandon All Hope he tossed them a full pack (or whatever the terminology is) of bullets.  I don't think Dean used any on the hellhounds in that ep, so he only used one on Lucifer before losing the gun (again.)  Besides, it looks like Crowley can make as  many bullets as necessary.  

I think this time Dean was loading his regular gun with devil's trap bullets (as Grandpa Henry taught him).

Anyone else getting Clue flashbacks? 😊

On 2/17/2017 at 9:13 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I may understand what Mary's doing, but I don't condone the fact that she's lying and sneaking around behind the boys' backs.  That's not going to end well.  It never has.  And I honestly got so tired of Sam and Dean doing it to each other that the past few seasons have been a breath of fresh air in that regard.  So believe me, I'm not happy that they have Mary doing the exact same thing.

 

I hate the secrets and lies. My only consolation is that if they didn't bring back Mary, this would be Sam working secretly with them, stealing the gun, etc. The writers seem to feel like this story is one worth telling over and over and over. 

On 2/17/2017 at 11:30 PM, Boopsahoy said:

I was rewatching today and noticed 2 things. On a funny note, after the conversation about waitresses smelling like food, the waitress stands by Cas and he sniffs her! I didn't notice the first watch. My husband and I both cracked up. 

This made me giggle so hard

On 2/18/2017 at 9:59 PM, catrox14 said:

Wow. The makeup to create Cas' wounds in this episode is pretty remarkable. And creepy. Especially where he was stabbed. EWWW.

 

The special effects in this show really are phenomenal. They are so gross and gory. This one had a great squick factor.

 

On 3/1/2017 at 5:04 PM, NoWillToResist said:

According to the actress who played Mandy, that sniff was unscripted. Totally ad-libbed by Misha. 🙂

 

Ha! I love it.

On 3/8/2017 at 11:52 AM, rue721 said:

 

I can also TOTALLY see someone who likes Zeppelin being a Tolkien nerd as well. Although even as I say that, I love Zeppelin and still can't make it three pages into a single Tolkein book so. 😉

I am sad to say that I liked Tolkien when I was younger but I went back recently and found LOTR unreadable. 

 

On 3/24/2017 at 12:26 PM, Wayward Son said:

I agree it wasn't really earnt! The only thing I've got (in addition to what you've said) is that perhaps the writers wanted us to believe they bonded during the six weeks the brothers were imprisoned and she accepted him as family then. 

The ironic (and sad for the brothers) thing is that Mary has actually shown more openness and empathy towards Cas than her own sons so far. Think of her opening up to him in the Foundry compared to her dismissal of Sam during this episode, or her attempts to comfort him while the boys were missing in First Born.

I don't know what the writers are going for with this, maybe Mary finds it easier to open herself to a stranger than the sons she fears possess expectation she can't meet, but it's just something I've observed. 

I can actually buy that it is easier with someone who has no history or expectations. 

I hated this episode, but probably more because I find Tarantino and non linear stories like this tedious. If we are going non linear, I need some clever reveals to justify it. Anyway, my dislike of the source material definitely colored my response. 

I agree that Mary is not likeable and I can't figure out how the writers thought this would all go down. She seems to care or not based on the needs of the story. I feel like the writers want us to assume things that aren't shown. It's a mess.

It is interesting how many of the old demons retired. Guess being evil gets old.

[AwesomO4000]

49 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I hate the secrets and lies. My only consolation is that if they didn't bring back Mary, this would be Sam working secretly with them, stealing the gun, etc. The writers seem to feel like this story is one worth telling over and over and over. 

Spoiler

If only you knew how prophetic you are. Just wait until two episodes from now. You think you hated this episode...

 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

  Hide contents

If only you knew how prophetic you are. Just wait until two episodes from now. You think you hated this episode...

 

Yup.

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

 

I hated this episode, but probably more because I find Tarantino and non linear stories like this tedious. If we are going non linear, I need some clever reveals to justify it. Anyway, my dislike of the source material definitely colored my response. 

I agree that Mary is not likeable and I can't figure out how the writers thought this would all go down. She seems to care or not based on the needs of the story. I feel like the writers want us to assume things that aren't shown. It's a mess.

It is interesting how many of the old demons retired. Guess being evil gets old.

IMO Speight is not a good director. He has this penchant for "homage" (I use quotes because I actually mean lazy and unoriginal), but he fails at it. Especially so in this episode. If you're going to borrow this style,  tell me something new with each new POV/retelling. All he gave us was a hot mess of  repetition. 

I continue to loathe Mary. I'd say I hope she dies in a fire,  but you know...

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yup.

IMO Speight is not a good director. He has this penchant for "homage" (I use quotes because I actually mean lazy and unoriginal), but he fails at it. Especially so in this episode. If you're going to borrow this style,  tell me something new with each new POV/retelling. All he gave us was a hot mess of  repetition. 

I continue to loathe Mary. I'd say I hope she dies in a fire,  but you know...

Is it wrong that I laughed? 

 

Read the spoiler and, siiiigh.