Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Oscirus]

21 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Perhaps the number of kids is number of children born living. I could see Cersei dying from complications during child birth and the baby boy being still born. 

That would still be four kids.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

That would still be four kids.

True... 

but if the baby isn't born alive I can see GRRM claiming it doesn't count. 

Not discounting those that do count their still born children/later miscarriages, but most when when asked "how many children do you have?" speak of live births. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Scarlett45

[SimoneS]

The show has been moving a warp speed, but I don't see how how Cersei and/or Dany are going to give birth and die over six episodes in the middle of two ongoing wars as some people are speculating. 

[WindyNights]

On 9/15/2017 at 9:07 AM, PatsyandEddie said:

^^^This is my expectation as well. The fact that her child is a dwarf would also be proof that Tyrion is indeed Tywin's son. 

Not really. Cersei and Tyrion share a mother even if Tyrion is Aerys' son.

 

On 9/17/2017 at 5:11 PM, magdalene said:

I am really liking this. Much less predictable than Tyrion or Jaime killing her. I like the irony of it.

Reading the books I was always completely certain that Cersei would die. But on the show I can't say I am certain at all.  I think she will die - but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

 I'd be willing to bet a million dollars that she dies. 

 

On 9/18/2017 at 9:08 AM, domina89 said:

True, but no weirder than all the 'Jaime is the valonqar' theories, considering he has only one hand.  I guess it is just up to individual interpretation.

He has two hands. One is just a fake golden hand. He can grip a goblet of wine with it so he can grip her neck.

[WindyNights]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

True... 

but if the baby isn't born alive I can see GRRM claiming it doesn't count. 

Not discounting those that do count their still born children/later miscarriages, but most when when asked "how many children do you have?" speak of live births. 

Eh, I don't think GRRM is going to go the pregnancy route with Cersei. She would've been clearly pregnant when she did the Walk of Shame in ADWD and if she does end up pregnant then it won't be Jaime's (it'll be one of the Kettleblack's kids).

 

This pregnancy reeks of a Talisa-style pregnancy. Woman gets pregnant only to lose baby in some brutal fashion.

Edited September 19, 2017 by WindyNights

[Oscirus]

On 9/17/2017 at 1:20 PM, Chris24601 said:

Given his tendency to fuck things up every time he tries to be win people over to Dany's cause (and because he was there to witness it), my guess would be Tyrion.

I think it'll probably be something along the lines of Sam and Bran tell Jon about his heritage and Jon decides that he needs to go to Dany with it immediately and Sam will offer to come along as moral support (and get in a few jibes by way of questions to the effect of "so, just was it like, fucking your aunt? Did it feel weird?" "Not until just now..."). Then they meet Tyrion outside whichever chambers Dany is staying in and while Jon goes in to see Dany, Tyrion, as a means of starting the conversation with Sam offers his condolences.

"Umm... Condolences for what?"

Cut to a scene of Sam storming off to the Rookery and beginning to write furiously.

As with all of Tyrion's many fuck-ups, it will be because he thinks he's trying to do right by Dany... by being a conciliator (and because, as witnessed by his after-action scene with Varys, Tyrion was conflicted about Dany's actions afterwards and hearing someone directly involved be understanding of the situation... since he was obviously acting as if nothing was wrong while going to meet with Dany... would help ease his conscience). He thinks he's offering condolences for an event in the past that Sam has surely already heard about, but he's actually the one breaking the news to poor Sam and, instead of his actions/plans helping, he once again makes matters worse for Dany.

Tyrion's luck since murdering his father is enough to make me somewhat believe in the Kinslayer curse. It doesn't come at you directly, it just makes your every decision turn to shit until one of them finally kills you.

LOL @ trying to turn Tyrion into the keystone cops because he got out-strategized by his more experienced brother. I almost want Tyrion to be separated so Dany and Jon so fans can stop trying to blame him for everything. That way Dany can go back to causing riots and Jon can go back to getting himself killed with his stupid decisions.

It's not that hard to assume that Sam already knows that his father and brothers been killed by dragon fire, if he doesn't by now and he can't put two and two together then Sam's a fucking idiot.ee

That being said I don't see his meeting Dany being much different then Davos meeting Tyrion.  Maybe it complicates the Sam Jon relationship, but I doubt it.

I

[MarySNJ]

17 hours ago, GraceK said:

So in regards to the whole Tarly situation that has been mentioned, TVTropes pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter::

The showrunners clearly want Randyll Tarly's death to be tragic and a potential Moral Event Horizon for Daenerys. The problem is that Randyll's one of the most despicable human beings on the show, who had betrayed the Tyrells (as Tyrion points out to him) and seems more affronted by Dany's "foreign" upbringing and "army of savages" than anything else. So, while one can feel sorry for his son Dickon, one can also see him as being a victim of Randyll's poor parenting and phony values, and ends up dying as a result of his father's choices for a war he didn't agree on, rather than Dany's. Furthermore, Randyll's disgust at Tyrion's killing of his father is extremely hypocritical considering that he himself threatened to murder his eldest son Samwell in a Hunting "Accident" if Sam didn't go to the Wall. The idea that the Tarlys become the hill to die on for Daenerys's morality feels unearned and tin-eared, especially when Jon Snow's execution of Olly and the Night's Watch traitors (who had the same motivations as Randyll did, i.e. xenophobia) was treated as dispensing justice, and the only moral argument seems to be about burning them alive rather than hanging them.

this idea that Sam will react with vengeance in mind or try to throw Dany under the bus seems far fetched. He respects and loves Jon, Jon is more his brother than Dickon ever was and considering the history of him and his family I think he will support and respect Jon no matter what. Also, Dany also saved everyone's ass beyond the wall, lost a child and pledged to help Jon fight the NK and WW. That in itself should be enoUgh for Sam to at least try and work with her, for the sake of the WORLD. Jon was willing to work with the Lannisters after all they had done to his family, including Theon , all for the greater good. Why should we expect less of Sam?

At least Olly had a reason for his xenophobia, what with Tormund's wildling crew attacking his village and killing (and the Thenn eating) his parents. It doesn't excuse his crime against his Lord Commander who had to look at the big picture, however. Randyll Tarley is pretty damned despicable if he's worse than the kid who stabbed Jon through the heart and I think he is. 

I do think Sam was fond of his brother though and might consider Dickon's execution - by whatever means, to be unwarranted since he thinks Jon is the rightful heir to the throne.  I'm not sure that it would be a matter of acting out of "vengeance" as much as lashing out in a moment of grief. We'll see. 

[GraceK]

36 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

At least Olly had a reason for his xenophobia, what with Tormund's wildling crew attacking his village and killing (and the Thenn eating) his parents. It doesn't excuse his crime against his Lord Commander who had to look at the big picture, however. Randyll Tarley is pretty damned despicable if he's worse than the kid who stabbed Jon through the heart and I think he is. 

I do think Sam was fond of his brother though and might consider Dickon's execution - by whatever means, to be unwarranted since he thinks Jon is the rightful heir to the throne.  I'm not sure that it would be a matter of acting out of "vengeance" as much as lashing out in a moment of grief. We'll see. 

Agree with all of this. I think that was the point of getting to see Dickon before his death, was to win sympathy. I personally have none for him lol, but I can see Sam being upset. I personally wish they won't make a big thing out of it, if only cause we have so many other, more important moments and things to deal with next season. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by GraceK

[MadMouse]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The show has been moving a warp speed, but I don't see how how Cersei and/or Dany are going to give birth and die over six episodes in the middle of two ongoing wars as some people are speculating. 

I'm betting the Cersei miscarriage was moved to S8 as a final she's lost everything moment and more than likely to contrast with Dany finding out she is pregnant.

[MarySNJ]

14 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

I'm betting the Cersei miscarriage was moved to S8 as a final she's lost everything moment and more than likely to contrast with Dany finding out she is pregnant.

I think this is a sure bet. Cersei had a good season. She started out as the underdog to Daenerys' combined forces and ended up even or better off, plus still occupying the Iron Throne. then poof! Jaime leaves her. Next, miscarriage - and there goes her legacy.  What's left? Qyburn, the Mountain and Euron: Dr. Mengele, Frankenstein's monster and L'Olonnais the pirate. Plus an army of sell swords who are a big question mark at this point. 

I'm really curious about how the Golden Company will fit into the conclusion. If they see that Westeros will be overrun by the White Walkers and the army of the dead, are they going to stick around? I'd be willing to bet no amount of gold is worth the risk of becoming a zombie slave. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by MarySNJ

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

I'm betting the Cersei miscarriage was moved to S8 as a final she's lost everything moment and more than likely to contrast with Dany finding out she is pregnant.

This what I think also. Probably in the same episode that Cersei miscarries, Dany discovers that she is pregnant. This seems far more realistic and is the kind of drama that the showrunners like. Even if it doesn't play out this, there is no way that one or even both leading actresses are likely to give birth by the end of the six episodes.

Edited September 19, 2017 by SimoneS

[MadMouse]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This what I think also. Probably in the same episode that Cersei miscarries, Dany discovers that she is pregnant. This seems far more realistic and is the kind of drama that the showrunners like. Even if it doesn't play out this, there is no way that one or even both leading actresses are likely to give birth by the end of the six episodes.

I wonder if there's going to be a little bit of time jump by telling us how long the love boat took to get to White Harbor. Just to speed along the boatsex baby reveal.

 

6 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I'm really curious about how the Golden Company will fit into the conclusion. If they see that Westeros will be overrun by the White Walkers and the army of the dead, are they going to stick around? I'd be willing to bet no amount of gold is worth the risk of becoming a zombie slave. 

How the Golden Company will play out all depends on who's leading it. If its Jon Connington, then expect a double cross once Jon's parentage is revealed. If its Daario expect a cringefest of a showdown between him and Aejon.

[herbz]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Not really. Cersei and Tyrion share a mother even if Tyrion is Aerys' son.

 

 I'd be willing to bet a million dollars that she dies. 

 

He has two hands. One is just a fake golden hand. He can grip a goblet of wine with it so he can grip her neck.

Is this a book detail I'm missing? I don't remember him being able to do anything with his gold hand other than block swords in the show, it's an unwieldy thing. He'd have to strangle her with one hand. I don't know if that's possible, having never murdered anybody by strangulation before, but who knows. I suppose there's always the possibility he uses the Strangler poison. 

'Jaime is not the valonqar' is starting to become the petty hill I die on, even though I am almost certainly going to be proved wrong :D 

42 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

I wonder if there's going to be a little bit of time jump by telling us how long the love boat took to get to White Harbor. Just to speed along the boatsex baby reveal.

 

How the Golden Company will play out all depends on who's leading it. If its Jon Connington, then expect a double cross once Jon's parentage is revealed. If its Daario expect a cringefest of a showdown between him and Aejon.

Please please be JonCon, I do not need to see some dick swinging contest with Jon and Daario. Hasn't he got a city to rule? If it's Connington that would definitely add weight to the theory that Jon's parentage is getting spread far and wide. 

[MadMouse]

19 minutes ago, herbz said:

Please please be JonCon, I do not need to see some dick swinging contest with Jon and Daario. Hasn't he got a city to rule? If it's Connington that would definitely add weight to the theory that Jon's parentage is getting spread far and wide. 

I'm for Connington myself, him turning on Cersei would just add more to her losing everything and decent into the Mad Queen/Aerys arc. Plus he can bond with Jorah, Lord and Ser Friendzoned by Targaryens. But I just can't help think based on the show's track record that they won't go for spurned lover Daario route and to have Jon defend his woman's honor.

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, MadMouse said:

I wonder if there's going to be a little bit of time jump by telling us how long the love boat took to get to White Harbor. Just to speed along the boatsex baby reveal.

This would mean Jon and Dany getting married early or in the middle of the season before the story ends and I just don't see that happening.

 

3 hours ago, MadMouse said:

How the Golden Company will play out all depends on who's leading it. If its Jon Connington, then expect a double cross once Jon's parentage is revealed. If its Daario expect a cringefest of a showdown between him and Aejon.

I certainly hope that D&D are smarter than Martin and don't introduce a major new character just when the story is about to wrap up. It would make far more sense to have Daario return leading the Golden Company. They can then go with the drama of having him betray Dany or making it look like he is betraying her only to have him double cross Cersei. Either way the drama is more intense because the audience knows Daario and his relationship with Daenerys.

[screamin]

I don't see the point of Jon Connington on the show if there's no Faegon.

[MadMouse]

21 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This would mean Jon and Dany getting married early or in the middle of the season before the story ends and I just don't see that happening.

 

I certainly hope that D&D are smarter than Martin and don't introduce a major new character just when the story is about to wrap up. It would make far more sense to have Daario return leading the Golden Company. They can then go with the drama of having him betray Dany or making it look like he is betraying her only to have him double cross Cersei. Either way the drama is more intense because the audience knows Daario and his relationship with Daenerys.

Really? I think its going to be at the end of episode three/ early four. But I also expect us to know Dany is pregnant before any of the characters do, rabbit cravings or something like that in the first episode.

See I like Connington for the exact reasons you hate ,that all the gold in the world can't buy you love and loyalty.  That the fabled GC breaks its contract because of this guy's love and devotion to Aejon's father. Plus its final FU from the ghost of Lyanna Stark.

[MrsR]

It could well be a situation where Jon might be compelled to execute... Sam.

 

Sam has deserted his post with the Night Watch. His job was to train to be a maester. He left that position without authorization.

Jon as Warden of the North, just like Ned, might have to pass judgement and swing the sword.  How's that for a moral dilemma?

I don't see Jon as an Oathbreaker. He died. His oath was to be with the Nightwatch until he died.  He died. His watch was over.

Sleeping with Ygritte, well he was undercover. Had to go with the flow.

As King of the North he has the power and position to make alliances and swear fealty at his discretion.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

if there's no Faegon.

What would be the point of introducing an old thief that manages a crew of child thieves???? They already killed one Olly...

[Azi]

The one new character from the books we haven't seen in the show I could see them implementing is Harry the Heir (I don't think the casting call fits him or have any kind of evidence, I mean just in general). Or basically a character who only has that name and the basic function as potential future leader of the Vale and maybe even Sansa's husband. I'm 50/50 on whether he eventually falls in love with her in the books and maybe even helps her take down Littefinger or if he simply just dies. 

They do need to fill the episodes with at least some non-walker stuff and he wouldn't need a character arc or anything big, plus Robin could easily die that way (I assume he dies in the books and they probably want to kill quite a few named characters).

[cambridgeguy]

16 hours ago, GraceK said:

Agree with all of this. I think that was the point of getting to see Dickon before his death, was to win sympathy. I personally have none for him lol, but I can see Sam being upset. I personally wish they won't make a big thing out of it, if only cause we have so many other, more important moments and things to deal with next season. 

Sam saying something disrespectful is certainly plausible but I don't think it will go any further than that.  Sam's BFFs with Jon AND he's the guy who saved Jorah's life - anything short of a premeditated assassination attempt on Dany will be excused away.  I still think Sam and Gilly are headed for some sort of happy ending, just like Sam Gamgee.  If the NK is defeated there's no longer any need for the Night's Watch so his oath won't matter much.

[MarySNJ]

12 hours ago, screamin said:

I don't see the point of Jon Connington on the show if there's no Faegon.

There's no Faegon, but there is an Aegon. Just spitballing, but what if JC finds out that Rhaegar's trueborn son with Lyanna is alive and in the North, fighting the good fight? Would he defect from the Golden Company to join Jon? What if it causes the Golden Company to turn cloak on Cersei? Of course, this assumes a lot from the book about JonCon and the Golden Company makes its way into season 8, but if I can see how JonCon might throw a monkey wrench into Cersei's plans. 

[screamin]

13 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

There's no Faegon, but there is an Aegon. Just spitballing, but what if JC finds out that Rhaegar's trueborn son with Lyanna is alive and in the North, fighting the good fight? Would he defect from the Golden Company to join Jon? What if it causes the Golden Company to turn cloak on Cersei? Of course, this assumes a lot from the book about JonCon and the Golden Company makes its way into season 8, but if I can see how JonCon might throw a monkey wrench into Cersei's plans. 

JonCon's poignancy comes from him remaining faithful to Rhaegar's memory and working toward helping him all his life, in the form of helping the boy he thinks is Rhaegar's son (who FWIW I think is Ilyrio's son and Varys' nephew), raising him as if he were his father and promoting his cause with every effort over years. To make JonCon the kind of Rhaegar worshipper he was in the book, it would mean: A) that he didn't know about the existence of Jon, and spent his life ignoring what he thought were the closest living relatives of Rhaegar, when they were children in need who could have used his help, but suddenly becomes all 'rah-rah' when he finds out Jon exists, or B) knew about the existence of Jon, but never lifted a finger to help him, only to suddenly become all 'rah-rah' when Jon becomes king. Either way, he wouldn't make a very sympathetic character, IMO.

Edited September 21, 2017 by screamin

[MarySNJ]

9 hours ago, MrsR said:

It could well be a situation where Jon might be compelled to execute... Sam.

 

Sam has deserted his post with the Night Watch. His job was to train to be a maester. He left that position without authorization.

Jon as Warden of the North, just like Ned, might have to pass judgement and swing the sword.  How's that for a moral dilemma?

I don't see Jon as an Oathbreaker. He died. His oath was to be with the Nightwatch until he died.  He died. His watch was over.

Sleeping with Ygritte, well he was undercover. Had to go with the flow.

As King of the North he has the power and position to make alliances and swear fealty at his discretion.

I agree with you that Jon is not an Oathbreaker. He is also a outside-the-box thinker, such as manning Eastwatch by the Sea with the Free Folk, all for the greater good. At this point it's basically "whatever works" given the stakes. 

I sincerely doubt Jon will have a moral dilemma over Sam leaving the Citadel to go to Winterfell. Sam is not a deserter. He didn't take Gilly and little Sam and run off to Bravos, he traveled to Jon's home base armed with books and Valyrian steel sword that can be used to fight the Night King and his army. 

In the TV series, it was Sam who had to convince Jon to send him to the Citadel in the first place, because he knew Gilly wasn't safe at the Wall and he would get killed trying to protect her, but also because they were desperate for information on the Long Night and the White Walkers so they could be prepared. Training to be a Maester was always secondary.

The main goal from Jon's perspective was for Sam to search for that information in the vast library there in order to defeat the army of the dead. However, Sam's purpose was thwarted by the Archmaesters who wouldn't give him access to the books he needed.  Sam had to steal the books and leave the Citadel in order to fulfill his mission on behalf of the Night's Watch. Arguably, Sam is still a brother of the Night's Watch doing what he can to find a way to defeat the army of the dead. 

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

JonCon's poignancy comes from him remaining faithful to Rhaegar's memory and working toward helping him all his life, in the form of helping the boy he thinks is Rhaegar's son (who FWIW I think is Ilyrio's son and Varys' nephew), raising him as if he were his father and promoting his cause with every effort over years. To make JonCon the kind of Rhaegar worshipper he was in the book, it would mean: A) that he didn't know about the existence of Jon, and spent his life ignoring what he thought were the closest living relatives of Rhaegar, when they were children in need who could have used his help, but suddenly becomes all 'rah-rah' when he finds out Jon exists, B) knew about the existence of Jon, but never lifted a finger to help him, only to suddenly become all 'rah-rah' when Jon becomes king. Either way, he wouldn't make a very sympathetic character, IMO.

But what if JonCon thought all of Rhaegar's children had been killed or died, that is if he even knew that Lyanna was pregnant before he was banished by Aerys? Nobody living, except Ned and Howland Reed, knew who Jon really is; not Varys or Littlefinger, or even Ned's closest kin (as far as we know). But if JonCon loved Rhaegar and learned that one of Rhaegar's sons was still alive after all these years, I can see how he would want to do everything he can to help that son now especially if he knew about Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy and believes Jon/Aegon is the PTWP and if it can be proven. 

Initially, I also don't think he would be rah-rah over Jon becoming king. I expect he'd be very skeptical. How can Bran prove what he's seen in his visions? There is documented evidence of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but no written record that Lyanna gave birth to a son, as far as we know. In fact, I think JonCon would be very suspicious about the claim as will everyone else. It would depend on if/how Jon's parentage can be proven. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by MarySNJ

[domina89]

19 hours ago, herbz said:

Is this a book detail I'm missing? I don't remember him being able to do anything with his gold hand other than block swords in the show, it's an unwieldy thing. He'd have to strangle her with one hand. I don't know if that's possible, having never murdered anybody by strangulation before, but who knows. I suppose there's always the possibility he uses the Strangler poison. 

'Jaime is not the valonqar' is starting to become the petty hill I die on, even though I am almost certainly going to be proved wrong :D 

Exactly.  Let us all remember, too, that Euron is a 'little brother' and pointed out to Cersei that he has "two good hands."  More than one thing could be deduced from that statement... 

[herbz]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

Exactly.  Let us all remember, too, that Euron is a 'little brother' and pointed out to Cersei that he has "two good hands."  More than one thing could be deduced from that statement... 

I'm biased because Jaime is my favourite book POV, but I so don't want it to be him. The show hasn't always done an amazing job at showing it, but the entire point of his arc so far is him disentangling from Cersei, that the twins aren't exact mirrors of each other, that he doesn't have to exist solely for her, that he can be someone outside of that mess of a relationship. Otherwise there would be no need for them to have separate POVs! For that to end in a rage filled murder just doesn't feel right to me. Idk, his story has always felt 'bigger' to me than it all coming back full circle to Cersei- he's connected to wider events (Aerys, Bran etc) than she is. Strangulation is such a passionate crime and Jaime in his last chapter is reaching the point of indifference, not hatred. He doesn't really owe it to anyone to kill her either, because Cersei was abusing Tyrion and throwing her friend down a well as a girl so it's not like she's a monster of Jaime's creation. I've seen Gregor Clegane mentioned as a candidate before- there's that sister who died in suspicious circumstances so he could be a younger brother. My pet theory was always Tommen resurrected as a wight (mainly because it was Cersei's actions that led to his death and that whole prophecy is self fulfilling) but I think she had his body burned in the show. I'd take pretty much anyone doing it over Jaime, but I'm prepared to be disappointed. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by herbz

[Inquiry]

5 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

But what if JonCon thought all of Rhaegar's children had been killed or died, that is if he even knew that Lyanna was pregnant before he was banished by Aerys? Nobody living, except Ned and Howland Reed, knew who Jon really is; not Varys or Littlefinger, or even Ned's closest kin (as far as we know). But if JonCon loved Rhaegar and learned that one of Rhaegar's sons was still alive after all these years, I can see how he would want to do everything he can to help that son now especially if he knew about Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy and believes Jon/Aegon is the PTWP and if it can be proven. 

Initially, I also don't think he would be rah-rah over Jon becoming king. I expect he'd be very skeptical. How can Bran prove what he's seen in his visions? There is documented evidence of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but no written record that Lyanna gave birth to a son, as far as we know. In fact, I think JonCon would be very suspicious about the claim as will everyone else. It would depend on if/how Jon's parentage can be proven. 

2

Yeah, I think making JonCon head of the Golden Company would be great and allow the viewers to know more about Rhaegar. As for him not helping Dany/Viserys making him unsympathetic; I think that could be resolved. He could be tormented over that (something like the brother and sister of Rhaegar Targaryen deserved more than to be raised by the man that failed their brother) or have him simply say "I have no love for the Targaryeans, but Rhaegar was as a brother. I swore an oath to protect him and his children, not you and Viserys." Really, there's a lot of ways they can explain his absence (this is all under the assumption he never knew about Jon because why would he?). I know he wouldn't be like the book character, but we are far past that point anyway. Having a character that was once extremely loyal to Rhaegar, but grew disillusioned after his death and ended up as the leader of the Golden Company (whose only loyalty is to gold) would be interesting, in my opinion. And, if used correctly, it would provide the viewers with more information about Rhaegar, which I think is needed. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Inquiry

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, herbz said:

I'm biased because Jaime is my favourite book POV, but I so don't want it to be him. The show hasn't always done an amazing job at showing it, but the entire point of his arc so far is him disentangling from Cersei, that the twins aren't exact mirrors of each other, that he doesn't have to exist solely for her, that he can be someone outside of that mess of a relationship. Otherwise there would be no need for them to have separate POVs! For that to end in a rage filled murder just doesn't feel right to me. Idk, his story has always felt 'bigger' to me than it all coming back full circle to Cersei- he's connected to wider events (Aerys, Bran etc) than she is. Strangulation is such a passionate crime and Jaime in his last chapter is reaching the point of indifference, not hatred. He doesn't really owe it to anyone to kill her either, because Cersei was abusing Tyrion and throwing her friend down a well as a girl so it's not like she's a monster of Jaime's creation. I've seen Gregor Clegane mentioned as a candidate before- there's that sister who died in suspicious circumstances so he could be a younger brother. My pet theory was always Tommen resurrected as a wight (mainly because it was Cersei's actions that led to his death and that whole prophecy is self fulfilling) but I think she had his body burned in the show. I'd take pretty much anyone doing it over Jaime, but I'm prepared to be disappointed. 

The way I've always seen Jaime's story is that of a failed redemption. 

He tries to finally become the man he wanted to be but in the end, he kills Cersei and dies himself realizing that while Brienne proved to him there are still true knights in the world, he could not prove himself to be one. 

It's the fall of the House of Atreus.  Tywin's philosophy was that "A Lannister Always Pays His Debts" and Jaime & Cersei follow that philosophy to their self-destruction. Tywin's golden twins off each other. Jaime was too much of a Lannister to be a true knight.

 

Last night he dreamed he’d found her fucking Moon Boy. He’d killed the fool and smashed his sister’s teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other.

"The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”

“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair."

 

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen." 

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

 

Now to be fair, I think the show will portray a lot more heroically when she kills Cersei whereas I think GRRM is positioning Jaime to murder Jaime in a passionate rage.

]

[herbz]

41 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

The way I've always seen Jaime's story is that of a failed redemption. 

He tries to finally become the man he wanted to be but in the end, he kills Cersei and dies himself realizing that while Brienne proved to him there are still true knights in the world, he could not prove himself to be one. 

It's the fall of the House of Atreus.  Tywin's philosophy was that "A Lannister Always Pays His Debts" and Jaime & Cersei follow that philosophy to their self-destruction. Tywin's golden twins off each other. Jaime was too much of a Lannister to be a true knight.

 

 

 

 

See, I interpret those dreams quite differently. Sure, he dreams once of hurting Cersei, but he links it in his thoughts with Clegane, who he doesn't like one bit, and Pia, who he's been helping. It's not something he's salivating over reenacting when he recalls that dream. Later on in his conversation with Ilyn Payne when Ilyn mimes slitting Cersei's throat, he doesn't consider doing it for a second. Jaime's thoughts are continually not borne out by his actions, so I'm not going to damn him just yet based on feelings he doesn't act out on. The only time he's really followed through on his anger was that time he hit Red Ronnet for insulting Brienne. He's really rather lovely to Lancel after previously berating him in his head. He doesn't treat him like the 'other man' the way you might expect. There's no jealous rage in that conversation. 

Later in that weirwood dream Cersei  leaves him in the darkness but Brienne remains. I interpreted that as Jaime being doomed if he continues to follow Cersei in everything. He wakes up and goes back to Harrenhal instead of hastening back to King's Landing for the big Lannister extravaganza that's the Purple Wedding. By ADWD, he's refused to die for his sister anymore. 

Finally, that dream with Joanna- you've skipped the bit at the beginning where she tells him to look at his hands and he doesn't have the two like he does in his previous dreams (and like in the one where he dreamed of smashing Cersei's teeth). Accepting reality maybe?

Idk, it's totally possible that Jaime is going to fail miserably in the end. He's committed far too many sins to have an easy time of it. But I think the discourse around his character often ends up going in circles, as in 'he can't be redeemed because he's going to murder his sister' when we can't know that for sure. I just see both their narratives diverging from each other, and Jaime's still in Act 2. 

I'm 100% prepared to be entirely wrong on this :p 

Edited September 20, 2017 by herbz

[screamin]

10 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

But what if JonCon thought all of Rhaegar's children had been killed or died, that is if he even knew that Lyanna was pregnant before he was banished by Aerys? Nobody living, except Ned and Howland Reed, knew who Jon really is; not Varys or Littlefinger, or even Ned's closest kin (as far as we know). But if JonCon loved Rhaegar and learned that one of Rhaegar's sons was still alive after all these years, I can see how he would want to do everything he can to help that son now especially if he knew about Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy and believes Jon/Aegon is the PTWP and if it can be proven. 

That would be scenario A) that I described in my previous post above: JonCon doesn't know that Jon exists, but he DOES know that Rhaegar's brother and sister still do, that they are unprotected children, friendless in foreign exile. He decides to do nothing whatever to help either of them, and expends his efforts instead toward building a mighty company of mercenaries that he COULD choose to use to help Rhaegar's siblings and the last remnants of his house - but he doesn't. Only when he hears of the existence of Rhaegar's Sacred Spawn is he moved to do something to help...IMO, not a very sympathetic character, and not a particularly good potential addition to the show.

 

5 hours ago, Inquiry said:

Yeah, I think making JonCon head of the Golden Company would be great and allow the viewers to know more about Rhaegar. As for him not helping Dany/Viserys making him unsympathetic; I think that could be resolved. He could be tormented over that (something like the brother and sister of Rhaegar Targaryen deserved more than to be raised by the man that failed their brother) or have him simply say "I have no love for the Targaryeans, but Rhaegar was as a brother. I swore an oath to protect him and his children, not you and Viserys." Really, there's a lot of ways they can explain his absence (this is all under the assumption he never knew about Jon because why would he?). I know he wouldn't be like the book character, but we are far past that point anyway. Having a character that was once extremely loyal to Rhaegar, but grew disillusioned after his death and ended up as the leader of the Golden Company (whose only loyalty is to gold) would be interesting, in my opinion. And, if used correctly, it would provide the viewers with more information about Rhaegar, which I think is needed. 

Look closer at that and it gets REALLY bad. Yeah, he adored Rhaegar and he decides all angstily that he is only morally bound (for whatever twisted reason) to help Jon, The Sacred Spawn of Rhaegar, while never lifting a finger to help Rhaegar's brother and sister - but he arrives in Westeros to help the family who horribly killed the other two Sacred Spawn of Rhaegar keep the Iron Throne they stole partly through those murders. That makes no flippin' sense - and again, makes him an unsympathetic character.

Of course, one could also invent some twisted justification for WHY JonCon, who supposedly loved Rhaegar so much, came to Westeros to help the murdering Lannisters hold on the Iron Throne that Tywin Lannister killed Rhaenys and Baby Aegon for. Maybe he was planning to double-cross Cersei all along and take Jon's side (even though he didn't know of Jon's existence till an episode ago!) It was all part of a Sekrit Plan, yeah! Except you'll need a whole lot of emoting and exposition to explain that - and whoa, suddenly you're giving a whole lot of airtime to a brand-new character in the very last season, trying to make us care about him, so he can then make us care about another character who's long dead and will require even MORE emoting and exposition to explain HIS cloudy and remote motives - for very little payoff.

I think that would be bad writing and it's not going to happen. IMO, the whole problem is Rhaegar - the closer you look at him and his actions, the worse he looks and the more tortured and far-fetched the explanations would be required to redeem him. I don't think it can be done adequately and I don't think the showrunners are going to break their 'nearly no flashbacks' rule to try. IMO, what they will do about Rhaegar is touch briefly on what he did in passing when Jon is angsting about it. Someone will say, "Yes, he made mistakes, but he paid for them, and he's long gone. The important thing is that the gods have destined you despite those mistakes to help this crisis. Forget the rest." And that will be all.

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The way I've always seen Jaime's story is that of a failed redemption. 

Jaime's so-called redemption in the books always struck me as bullshit.

I'd be very surprised if JonCon showed up in the show. When Aegon got cut, any book characters whose primary connection was to him (or will be, in Arianne's case) also got the boot. I also think it's too late in the game for any significant players from the books to be introduced: too much clutter. That's why we got "Ebrose" instead of Marwyn. Alys Karstark showed up, sure, but she got what, one line? I think it will be the same for Season 8.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[screamin]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jaime's so-called redemption in the books always struck me as bullshit.

 

ITA. Book Jaime was totally gung-ho for whatever Cersei wanted, no matter how depraved - when Cersei demanded during sex that he cut off Arya's hand, he was all for it! But Cersei sleeps with someone else, and THAT'S the ultimate crime he abandons her for? That's not about redemption, that about his precious wounded ego.

The show kept Jaime as Cersei's bitch for way too long - he should have dumped her after Tommen's death - but at least when he finally left her, it was for a reason more important than his tender fee-fees about Cersei sleeping with someone else. The show did improve on the books with that.

Edited September 21, 2017 by screamin

[GraceK]

I don't care how fan servicey it is..next season I just want to see Jon ride Rhaegal.

so, I'm not sure if this is the right spot to post this, but I feel personally sick about  Viserion. What upsets me is that him and Rhaegal spent most of their adulthood locked up in Mereen, unable to grow to full strength and obviously not nearly as tested in battle as Drogon. It hurts me that Dany not only very obviously favors Drogon, but that Viserion and Rheagal still have such love and blind faith in their mother, even after being chained, that they followed her beyond the wall to save her friends and Viserion died for it. And Dany doesn't even say his name! She says to Jon in the dragon pit " I lost my dragon". Not, " I lost Viserion".  It makes the whole thing so much more heartbreaking. In the books, Dany clearly cries out in physical pain when Drogon is injured...in the show she barely has a reaction to Viserion dying. She seems much more invested in Jon Snow...and I feel it does her character a disfavor. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by GraceK

[herbz]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

ITA. Book Jaime was totally gung-ho for whatever Cersei wanted, no matter how depraved - when Cersei demanded during sex that he cut off Arya's hand, he was all for it! But Cersei sleeps with someone else, and THAT'S the ultimate crime he abandons her for? That's not about redemption, that about his precious wounded ego.

The show kept Jaime as Cersei's bitch for way too long - he should have dumped her after Tommen's death - but at least when he finally left her, it was for a reason more important than his tender fee-fees about Cersei sleeping with someone else. The show did improve on the books with that.

There's obviously no way he's even close to being there yet, or any guarantee he'll succeed in getting to a better place at all, but I read Jaime's confession of what he was willing to do to Arya as his recognition of just how low he was willing to go. Those are his therapy sessions with Ilyn Payne. It's a turning point. You can't be on a redemption arc if you've not done something awful to be redeemed from. The very first point is realising you want to do better. That's why I said that for me, in terms of the narrative George is constructing, Jaime's still at the beginning of Act 2- the very bottom of the arc, so to speak. I think the show has just clumsily streamlined what will be book Jaime's slooooooow progression from 'she cheated on me, the cow' to 'she's a terrible human being and I've done terrible things out of a love for her that wasn't even real'. But I'll never know because I will probably die before the final books come out :P 

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

I don't care how fan servicey it is..next season I just want to see Jon ride Rhaegal.

so, I'm not sure if this is the right spot to post this, but I feel personally sick about  Viserion. What upsets me is that him and Rhaegal spent most of their adulthood locked up in Mereen, unable to grow to full strength and obviously not nearly as tested in battle as Drogon. It hurts me that Dany not only very obviously favors Drogon, but that Viserion and Rheagal still have such love and blind faith in their mother, even after being chained, that they followed her beyond the wall to save her friends and Viserion died for it. And Dany doesn't even say his name! She says to Jon in the dragon pit " I lost my dragon". Not, " I lost Viserion".  It makes the whole thing so much more heartbreaking. In the books, Dany clearly cries out in physical pain when Drogon is injured...in the show she barely has a reaction to Viserion dying. She seems much more invested in Jon Snow...and I feel it does her character a disfavor. 

I always assumed we'd get Jon and Rhaegal, never questioned it, and now I'm going to be so disappointed if we don't! Idk if Emilia was directed to be 'stoic' or something in the scene where Viserion dies but I felt nothing from her. Poor Viserion. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by herbz

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, GraceK said:

so, I'm not sure if this is the right spot to post this, but I feel personally sick about  Viserion. What upsets me is that him and Rhaegal spent most of their adulthood locked up in Mereen, unable to grow to full strength and obviously not nearly as tested in battle as Drogon. It hurts me that Dany not only very obviously favors Drogon, but that Viserion and Rheagal still have such love and blind faith in their mother, even after being chained, that they followed her beyond the wall to save her friends and Viserion died for it. And Dany doesn't even say his name! She says to Jon in the dragon pit " I lost my dragon". Not, " I lost Viserion".  It makes the whole thing so much more heartbreaking. In the books, Dany clearly cries out in physical pain when Drogon is injured...in the show she barely has a reaction to Viserion dying. She seems much more invested in Jon Snow...and I feel it does her character a disfavor. 

Poor Dany can't win for losing. When she remained stoic and determined upon suffering the loss of one of her children, she was branded as cold and unfeeling. If she had gone through a meltdown, she'd be a blubbery weakling who needs to pull it together and face the realities of war. 

 

14 hours ago, screamin said:

ITA. Book Jaime was totally gung-ho for whatever Cersei wanted, no matter how depraved - when Cersei demanded during sex that he cut off Arya's hand, he was all for it! But Cersei sleeps with someone else, and THAT'S the ultimate crime he abandons her for? That's not about redemption, that about his precious wounded ego.

The show kept Jaime as Cersei's bitch for way too long - he should have dumped her after Tommen's death - but at least when he finally left her, it was for a reason more important than his tender fee-fees about Cersei sleeping with someone else. The show did improve on the books with that.

Yes, absolutely. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

15 hours ago, screamin said:

ITA. Book Jaime was totally gung-ho for whatever Cersei wanted, no matter how depraved - when Cersei demanded during sex that he cut off Arya's hand, he was all for it! But Cersei sleeps with someone else, and THAT'S the ultimate crime he abandons her for? That's not about redemption, that about his precious wounded ego.

The show kept Jaime as Cersei's bitch for way too long - he should have dumped her after Tommen's death - but at least when he finally left her, it was for a reason more important than his tender fee-fees about Cersei sleeping with someone else. The show did improve on the books with that.

Did you read the books or just a wiki summary of it? 

Here's why the show did it wrong: 

Show Jaime's reason for leaving her doesn't tie into who Jaime is as a character and their relationship . Book Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei isn't admirable but it's certainly more human. How many people have left their significant other because they've constantly cheated on them?

Jaime's redemption arc starts with the loss of his hand because it forced him to start using his brain. All the chapters with Jaime in ASOS were before he ever finds out Cersei slept with other people. 

When Tyrion tells him that Cersei's been cheating on him with other people, it breaks this image that he had of her. She doesn't love him. Only he loved her. 

So AFFC forces him to re-evaluate his relationship with Cersei and some of his decisions. 

But there's a lot misinterpretation about what Jaime did at the end of AFFC. It's not that Jaime doesn't care about Cersei anymore and therefore her abandons her. It's that Jaime actively hates Cersei and is perfectly okay with her dying. It's not a severance of a connection, it's going from one extreme emotion to the next. Love to hate.

Edited September 21, 2017 by WindyNights

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Here's why the show did it wrong: 

Show Jaime's reason for leaving her doesn't tie into who Jaime is as a character and their relationship .

You wrote your interpretation of the reasons of Book!Jaime. But In my opinion, you didn't explain clearly "why the show did it wrong". You said it doesn't tie into who Jaime is as character and their relationship. Are we talking about Show!Jaime or Book!Jaime? They are different characters living different lives in different Planetos.

Edited September 21, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Inquiry]

17 hours ago, screamin said:

Look closer at that and it gets REALLY bad. Yeah, he adored Rhaegar and he decides all angstily that he is only morally bound (for whatever twisted reason) to help Jon, The Sacred Spawn of Rhaegar, while never lifting a finger to help Rhaegar's brother and sister - but he arrives in Westeros to help the family who horribly killed the other two Sacred Spawn of Rhaegar keep the Iron Throne they stole partly through those murders. That makes no flippin' sense - and again, makes him an unsympathetic character.

Yeah, I hadn't considered that. I mean, it could be worked around but I don't know if the writers will want to invest that much time in the character. 

17 hours ago, screamin said:

I think that would be bad writing and it's not going to happen. IMO, the whole problem is Rhaegar - the closer you look at him and his actions, the worse he looks and the more tortured and far-fetched the explanations would be required to redeem him. I don't think it can be done adequately and I don't think the showrunners are going to break their 'nearly no flashbacks' rule to try. IMO, what they will do about Rhaegar is touch briefly on what he did in passing when Jon is angsting about it. Someone will say, "Yes, he made mistakes, but he paid for them, and he's long gone. The important thing is that the gods have destined you despite those mistakes to help this crisis. Forget the rest." And that will be all.

Unfortunately, I think you're right. The writers won't/can't go too much in Rhaegar's characterization. I'm guessing that most of the information we'll get about him will come from Three Eyed Braven.

 

Oh, and Jon is DEFINITELY going to ride Rhaegal next season. In the earlier outlines of Season 7, his fall into the lake happened because he was riding Viserion when the Night King no scoped Viserion. One of the reasons the writers cut that out is because they wanted the symbolism of Jon's first dragon ride being on Rhaegal.  

[GraceK]

17 minutes ago, Inquiry said:

h, and Jon is DEFINITELY going to ride Rhaegal next season. In the earlier outlines of Season 7, his fall into the lake happened because he was riding Viserion when the Night King no scoped Viserion. One of the reasons the writers cut that out is because they wanted the symbolism of Jon's first dragon ride being on Rhaegal.  

Squee!!! This has made me so happy!

[herbz]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Did you read the books or just a wiki summary of it? 

Here's why the show did it wrong: 

Show Jaime's reason for leaving her doesn't tie into who Jaime is as a character and their relationship . Book Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei isn't admirable but it's certainly more human. How many people have left their significant other because they've constantly cheated on them?

Jaime's redemption arc starts with the loss of his hand because it forced him to start using his brain. All the chapters with Jaime in ASOS were before he ever finds out Cersei slept with other people. 

When Tyrion tells him that Cersei's been cheating on him with other people, it breaks this image that he had of her. She doesn't love him. Only he loved her. 

So AFFC forces him to re-evaluate his relationship with Cersei and some of his decisions. 

But there's a lot misinterpretation about what Jaime did at the end of AFFC. It's not that Jaime doesn't care about Cersei anymore and therefore her abandons her. It's that Jaime actively hates Cersei and is perfectly okay with her dying. It's not a severance of a connection, it's going from one extreme emotion to the next. Love to hate.

I completely disagree with you on that last point. Cersei is not summoning Jaime to fight for her life, and Jaime is not sentencing her by refusing the summons. She's trying to emotionally manipulate him into coming back to King's Landing to die, because in her mind he can't exist outside of her and nor should he be allowed to. Jaime doesn't actively want her to die, he simply understands that he can't prevent it. He's short a sword hand, he cannot win a trial by battle, and both the twins know it. The anger comes in earlier chapters. In burning that letter, Jaime is simply rejecting the ridiculous notion they've been parroting since they were teenagers that the two of them must leave the world together as they came into it. He's choosing life instead. The indifference comes because he's not investing any more of his emotions into her- it's no narrative coincidence that Brienne rocks up not long afterwards. That's why I think it'd be such a waste for him just to circle back to kill Cersei and for their stories to end together. We've spent all this POV time with two entirely static characters that way. 

I'm with you on the rest of it, though I don't think the show necessarily got it 'wrong' by having Jaime leave because he wanted to do the moral thing rather than because she shagged Lancel 5 years ago. I wish they'd done it two seasons earlier, but as soon as they had Jaime witness Joffrey's and Myrcella's deaths the character beats had to be changed out of necessity. Book Jaime isn't really party to the worst of Cersei's madness either. Jaime and Cersei actually share very little page time together for two characters who are supposed to be entwined forever. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by herbz

[WindyNights]

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

You wrote your interpretation of the reasons of Book!Jaime. But In my opinion, you didn't explain clearly "why the show did it wrong". You said it doesn't tie into who Jaime is as character and their relationship. Are we talking about Show!Jaime or Book!Jaime? They are different characters living different lives in different Planetos.

Show Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei doesn't tie into his character and his relationship with Cersei.  It doesn't tie into who he's been up to until now.

At the core of Jaime(show and book) is a proud but selfish asshole. He's not this white knight figure even at the core of his being. He's a proud, arrogant, vain, uncaring, self satisfied asshole that is starting to realize his mistakes but those are all tied up into his pride. He wants to be someone he can't be anymore.

No one is going to call him Goldenhand the Just, they're going to call him Kingslayer until the day he dies.

What the show is doing is playing Jaime's redemption arc straight. Show Jaime becomes a good man rather than what I think GRRM is doing which is Jaime tries to become a good man but he fails to live up to his dream or at the very least it'll be very ambiguous. 

Sometimes when you're in the process of climbing back up, you fall again and break your back. 

Going off on a tangent, I  think that ties into why I think Jaime will kill Cersei. I think the show wants Jaime to kill Cersei for the greater good so the GC and the Lannister armies are left without a leader. What I see happening is Jaime being sent to talk down his sister and realizing that there's no getting through to her, he kills her and his unborn child. Reminiscent of Stannis. 

 

What I think GRRM's Jaime is going to do is kill Cersei in a jealous rage for Cersei sleeping with other men( and I think GRRM wants to draw a parallel here to the modern abusive boyfriend and how Cersei didn't actually deserve to be killed for that). And I think that the moment he kills Cersei is the moment he closes the book forever on redemption

His death is going to be the same in both versions though or that's what I think. To me, Robert Strong/Ungregor exists to kill Jaime immediately after he murders his sister. The symbol of Lannister brutality murders Tywin's golden heir. Cersei's protector, which was Jaime's last identity, kills him and his new identity(Goldenhand the Just).

And if you think about his name, it's a reference to the Starks and Robert Baratheon(Stark is German for Stark and Robert= Robert Baratheon).

[WindyNights]

7 hours ago, herbz said:

I completely disagree with you on that last point. Cersei is not summoning Jaime to fight for her life, and Jaime is not sentencing her by refusing the summons. She's trying to emotionally manipulate him into coming back to King's Landing to die, because in her mind he can't exist outside of her and nor should he be allowed to. Jaime doesn't actively want her to die, he simply understands that he can't prevent it. He's short a sword hand, he cannot win a trial by battle, and both the twins know it. The anger comes in earlier chapters. In burning that letter, Jaime is simply rejecting the ridiculous notion they've been parroting since they were teenagers that the two of them must leave the world together as they came into it. He's choosing life instead. The indifference comes because he's not investing any more of his emotions into her- it's no narrative coincidence that Brienne rocks up not long afterwards. That's why I think it'd be such a waste for him just to circle back to kill Cersei and for their stories to end together. We've spent all this POV time with two entirely static characters that way. 

I'm with you on the rest of it, though I don't think the show necessarily got it 'wrong' by having Jaime leave because he wanted to do the moral thing rather than because she shagged Lancel 5 years ago. I wish they'd done it two seasons earlier, but as soon as they had Jaime witness Joffrey's and Myrcella's deaths the character beats had to be changed out of necessity. Book Jaime isn't really party to the worst of Cersei's madness either. Jaime and Cersei actually share very little page time together for two characters who are supposed to be entwined forever. 

Jaime wouldn't be a static character either way. He's been too developed for that. It's just a dislike for them dying together on your part, I think. 

Like I said, I think Jaime's arc leads to failure and the reason I'm absolutely certain you're wrong is because the clues are all pointing that Jaime kills Cersei.

If he does kill her then that wouldn't mesh with what you think happened.

I think that Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei in the show is just divorced from the core of his character.

[screamin]

22 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Did you read the books or just a wiki summary of it? 

Er, yes? All the books? Even have them on my Kindle?

 

Quote

Jaime's redemption arc starts with the loss of his hand because it forced him to start using his brain. All the chapters with Jaime in ASOS were before he ever finds out Cersei slept with other people. 

ITA that Jaime got a lot better at being introspective after having his hand cut off, since it kept him from being able to kill every problem that presented itself, forcing him to do a lot more thinking about the way he's lived his life till then and how he has to change it to adapt to his changed circumstances. I disagree, however, that this by itself constitutes any kind of redemption, or even part of one. One can be introspective as all get out and still use all the thinking power you have to invent ever more elaborate justifications for the bad things you've done and will do instead of trying to change yourself ethically for the better. I saw Jaime get better at commanding others to do the things he can no longer do himself, and use strategy instead of force to do them, like when he took Riverrun by a threat to trebuchet a baby instead of leading a gallant charge himself. But significant moral improvement? Doing something ethically good at significant cost to himself that he would never have done back when he had two good hands? IMO, I've never seen Jaime do that in the books. And doing something like that is the key to redemption.

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Show Jaime's reason for leaving her doesn't tie into who Jaime is as a character and their relationship . Book Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei isn't admirable but it's certainly more human. How many people have left their significant other because they've constantly cheated on them?

I agree that it's a very human motivation. But I don't think that rejecting a lover instead because you realize something they accept as okay is too wrong for you to tolerate anymore is a superhuman motivation only fit for angels, that mere humans can't possibly identify with. It doesn't even have to be a crime like murder or embezzlement or drug dealing. It can be something manifestly legal like rank racism or homophobia that doesn't directly affect your relationship, that one can choose to ignore or even happily participate in yourself as a couple, or choose to reject as something too repulsive to condone with your acceptance. Rejecting it is ALSO a human thing to do - but IMO, it's the act of a better human. Which is IMO what Book Jaime has not yet proved himself to have become, or even necessarily be trying to become, and what Show Jaime has at least shown himself as actively trying to do - by rejecting something that previously would have been of huge value to him...Cersei's love, her open acceptance of him before the world as her lover, because what she was demanding was wrong. Rejecting that is a huge sacrifice that Jaime would never have made at the beginning of the story - thus taking an action that proves he has changed for the better inside, not just lost a hand on the outside. Book Jaime has never taken such an action and made such a sacrifice based on wanting to be better than he is - ergo, not proven himself to be on the road to redemption.

 

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When Tyrion tells him that Cersei's been cheating on him with other people, it breaks this image that he had of her. She doesn't love him. Only he loved her. 

So AFFC forces him to re-evaluate his relationship with Cersei and some of his decisions. 

But there's a lot misinterpretation about what Jaime did at the end of AFFC. It's not that Jaime doesn't care about Cersei anymore and therefore her abandons her. It's that Jaime actively hates Cersei and is perfectly okay with her dying. It's not a severance of a connection, it's going from one extreme emotion to the next. Love to hate.

 

 Their connection in the books, IMO, didn't undergo a sudden swing from love to hate at the revelation of Cersei's infidelity.  When Jaime talked to Catelyn about their love, it was with a twisted amoral pride in how AWESOME it was, how utterly unique it made him among men ("There are no men like me. There's only me,") which IMO is sort of a reflection of his and Cersei's mutual narcissism. IIRC, when Jaime came back to KL his feelings for her underwent a gradual deterioration, not a sudden switch from one extreme to another. And IMO it was ALL due to Cersei dealing blow after blow to his self esteem, her contempt for the way he'd aged and changed (her mockery of his beard, his graying hair, his stump), every one a wound to his self-love - ouch, ouch, ouch. The first revelation of her infidelity came before he'd left KL, from Tyrion, but even after that in the scenes between them, while he's brooding over Tyrion having said that she'd fucked Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy, he's still thinking yearningly about the better days, still wanting to sleep with her, and IMO it's pretty clear that he'd be ready to forgive her Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy and everybody, if only she'd be NICE to him again.

I don't think him getting the confirmation from Lancel about her infidelity made a sudden huge change in him from love to furious hate. He certainly didn't seem angry at Lancel for being the instrument of her infidelity. Anyway, it doesn't really matter too much to me whether he hates Cersei passionately now or is just wearily indifferent to her. To me, he still rejected and abandoned the love he'd built his entire life around because she had dared have sex with someone else, and hurt his feelings...not because of any much more morally horrible thing she had done. So IMO, there's no particular redemption in Book Jaime's rejection of her, the way there is some redemption in Show Jaime's rejection of a loving, accepting, but morally horrible Cersei. And if you disagree, tell me: Do you think Book Jaime would have abandoned Cersei if she'd offered everything Show Cersei offered Show Jaime - her expressed love, her public acknowledgement of that love, her pregnancy, all that?

Edited September 22, 2017 by screamin

[herbz]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Jaime wouldn't be a static character either way. He's been too developed for that. It's just a dislike for them dying together on your part, I think. 

Like I said, I think Jaime's arc leads to failure and the reason I'm absolutely certain you're wrong is because the clues are all pointing that Jaime kills Cersei.

If he does kill her then that wouldn't mesh with what you think happened.

I think that Jaime's reason for leaving Cersei in the show is just divorced from the core of his character.

He would absolutely be static. He was a pretty decent, idealistic kid with grand notions of True Knighthood TM (I see a lot of similarities with young Sansa tbh, we just meet him once all his ideals have been shot to hell) who did the right thing in challenging Westeros' and the Kingsguard's code of blind loyalty and was condemned for it. But that all happens pre AGOT. We meet a bitter, amoral asshole, who later accesses some of that (very tarnished and very well buried) core decency again with Brienne, and if he strangles his sister in a jealous rage he will die bitter. There's no progression there, just an interesting interlude. He'd be fleshed out, but static. 

But this is exactly what I mean about circular argumentation when it comes to his character! If he does kill her, it doesn't mesh with how I interpret the text, no, but that's working backwards from an end point we don't 100% know. I currently don't think he will kill her because it doesn't mesh with what we've been given on the page so far. I'm not denying the possibility of a 180 turnaround based on new info in the next book. You are certain that he will kill Cersei (but what is the evidence? The 'valonqar' prophecy Cersei mentions twice? The fact that Cersei thinks they'll die together? Cersei's the most unreliable narrator in the books! His weirwood dream actually points to him outliving her) so all analysis of him derives from that point. I simply think it's more interesting to consider different possibilities rather than see his endgame as fixed. 

We're well beyond the books at this point. D&D know the character's endings where we don't. I think Jaime leaving Cersei for more honorable reasons than in the books is perhaps indicative that he will get to that place on the page.

Edited September 22, 2017 by herbz

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

At the core of Jaime(show and book) is...

 

We don't have POV of Show!Jaime. If even when we read the POV of a character in a novel it's open to interpretation, it's clear that the core of Show!Jaime is even more open to interpretation in the show. We don't know Show!Jaime core. What do we know? We know life is giving him a new chance of redemption. 

 

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Show Jaime becomes a good man rather than what I think GRRM is doing...

I don't see the problem of the show writers following their own ideas for Jaime arc.

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, herbz said:

He would absolutely be static. He was a pretty decent, idealistic kid with grand notions of True Knighthood TM (I see a lot of similarities with young Sansa tbh, we just meet him once all his ideals have been shot to hell) who did the right thing in challenging Westeros' and the Kingsguard's code of blind loyalty and was condemned for it. But that all happens pre AGOT. We meet a bitter, amoral asshole, who later accesses some of that (very tarnished and very well buried) core decency again with Brienne, and if he strangles his sister in a jealous rage he will die bitter. There's no progression there, just an interesting interlude. He'd be fleshed out, but static. 

But this is exactly what I mean about circular argumentation when it comes to his character! If he does kill her, it doesn't mesh with how I interpret the text, no, but that's working backwards from an end point we don't 100% know. I currently don't think he will kill her because it doesn't mesh with what we've been given on the page so far. I'm not denying the possibility of a 180 turnaround based on new info in the next book. You are certain that he will kill Cersei (but what is the evidence? The 'valonqar' prophecy Cersei mentions twice? The fact that Cersei thinks they'll die together? Cersei's the most unreliable narrator in the books! His weirwood dream actually points to him outliving her) so all analysis of him derives from that point. I simply think it's more interesting to consider different possibilities rather than see his endgame as fixed. 

We're well beyond the books at this point. D&D know the character's endings where we don't. I think Jaime leaving Cersei for more honorable reasons than in the books is perhaps indicative that he will get to that place on the page.

The show literally puts Jaime on the fingers and Cersei on the Neck in the first episode of the seventh season. It's coming.

The reason that I'm absolutely sure that Jaime is going to kill Cersei is because GRRM's arrows are pointing there from the Valonquar prophecy to Jaime's dream about his mother to Jaime's dream where he's in the role of Gregor Clegane and Cersei is Pia to Jaime growing to hate her (although Cersei doesn't know it) etc.

Also Jaime's Weirwood dream says he dies at the end.

13 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

 

We don't have POV of Show!Jaime. If even when we read the POV of a character in a novel it's open to interpretation, it's clear that the core of Show!Jaime is even more open to interpretation in the show. We don't know Show!Jaime core. What do we know? We know life is giving him a new chance of redemption. 

 

I don't see the problem of the show writers following their own ideas for Jaime arc.

It's not a problem but it's less interesting to me.

I think a story about failed redemption is more unique than a story about actual redemption.

[GraceK]

On 9/21/2017 at 10:34 AM, Eyes High said:

 Dany can't win for losing. When she remained stoic and determined upon suffering the loss of one of her children, she was branded as cold and unfeeling. If she had gone through a meltdown, she'd be a blubbery weakling who needs to pull it together and face the realities of war. 

I honestly was not trying to take a stab at Dany. My previous posts are clearly Pro Dany... I love the girl. I will defend her to the death lol :) 

i was just hoping for more of a reaction. I don't need crying and blubber...epic rage would have sufficed. At least taking aim for the NK on the way out or something. I honestly think it has more to do with Emilia rather than the character. 

I'm just telling myself it was pure shock that she was going for. Which also makes sense...this is the first loss since Drago and her baby, I can see her shutting down emotionally in the moment.

also I am way to attached to the Dragons and Dire wolves :) 

[GrailKing]

On 8/17/2017 at 9:00 AM, Eyes High said:

Like Jon was a tyrant for executing Janos Slynt for insubordination?

Not the same.

From the Northern Lords perspective: Ned went south and died, Robb called the banners, went south, agreed to marry a Frey, broke that promise and married another and brought discourse and death into the northern  army and himself and loss of Winterfell. Beheads Lord Karstark ; when the better alternative was to keep him alive to keep the army intact.

So from the Northern Lords perspective, the KITN leaving is a bad omen for them, and now Sansa, Bran and I assume Arya know that Jon bent the knee, it's like the male Starks are making foolish and dangerous decisions, that already wrecked havoc on them so their complaints are valid.

It will be interesting to see how Sansa deals with Danni, I think she will be harder to win over then Arya, and then she and Jon will have to get the North behind it.

[GrailKing]

On 8/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, Couver said:

I just hope Ghost, Nymeria, Rhaegal, and Drogon end up in the Not Dead list. That's all I'm wishing for at this point.

If they're magical, they have to die, I give the dire wolves a 50 / 50 shot as they actually did / do exist, hopefully Leaf was only talking about animals and not families.