Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Eyes High]

Here's the thread for all theories about the endgame of Game of Thrones and/or ASOIAF. Who lives? Who dies? Who gets married? Who gets the Iron Throne (if anyone)? Speculate away.

This thread will cover Season 7 spoilers. All ASOIAF published books and chapters of The Winds of Winter that have already been released are also fair game.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Here's the thread for all theories about the endgame of Game of Thrones and/or ASOIAF. Who lives? Who dies? Who gets married? Who gets the Iron Throne (if anyone)? Speculate away.

This thread will cover Season 7 spoilers. All ASOIAF published books and chapters of The Winds of Winter that have already been released are also fair game.

Awesome! Thanks!

One of my endgame theories in the show is that both Sansa and Arya will have open endings. 

I think we will not know what exactly will happen with them.

Arya will go to find the West of Westeros, we will know she wants to return but we will not know when.

Sansa will finally have enough power to decide about her life, if she wants to marry or not (I do not know how the whole Sansa-Tyrion marriage issue will be solved) Also, we will not know who will be her future husband (in case she marries again) but we will know she wants to take some years to decide about a lot of things.

Or maybe we will have an epilogue to find about all that stuff.

Edited February 2, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Awesome! Thanks!

One of my endgame theories in the show is that both Sansa and Arya will have open endings. 

I think we will not know what exactly will happen with them.

Arya will go to find the West of Westeros, we will know she wants to return but we will not know when.

Sansa will finally have enough power to decide about her life, if she wants to marry or not (I do not know how the whole Sansa-Tyrion marriage issue will be solved) Also, we will not know who will be her future husband (in case she marries again) but we will know she wants to take some years to decide about a lot of things.

Or maybe we will have an epilogue to find about all that stuff.

I'm awfully tempted by the idea of Arya's going west of Westeros, since it seemed like such a random thing to say. In the books, what lies west of Westeros is a mystery, and no one who sailed west of Westeros across the sea has ever returned (Brandon the Shipwright tried). Arya's direwolf's namesake, Nymeria, sailed west from her home with a bunch of refugees (to Dorne), burning the Rhoynar fleet so she couldn't return. Gylbert Farwynd talks about the Ironborn sailing west of Westeros to the "land beyond the sunset" at the kingsmoot in AFFC. 

Of course, if Arya did take off, it seems unlikely she would do it alone: Nymeria was leading refugees, and Gylbert talked about leading a great expedition and building ten thousand ships, after all. It's hard to see how Arya could corral a group of explorers to embark on what in the books at least would amount to a suicide mission, unless of course Westeros is rendered uninhabitable by the Otherpocalypse.

As for Sansa and Tyrion, I'm 50/50 on whether the writers are going to pretend the marriage never happened. The whole issue is academic in any event if one of them dies.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

I imagine the kingdoms will go independent, in a loose confederation, the IT will be melted down for the Valyrian steel, and Dany, Tyrion, and others keeping some sort of council while Dany and Tyrion stay in KL.  Jon may very well go North, or wherever the Wildlings end up. I reserve the right to change that last one, depending on how he reacts when he finds out who his true parents are.

If Sansa lives, I expect her to go back to Tyrion, OR stay in Winterfell with Bran. If Jon/Arya doesn't happen, I can see Arya being paired with either Gendry or — believe it or not — Jamie. He and Arya are two of the most deadly people on the canvas, two of the most traumatized and disillusioned, and perhaps the best suited to helping keep each other in check. The Starks and Lannisters are going to need some glue to their alliance, IMO, or the old tensions are just going to keep repeating.

Cersei's going to be choked, right?

Edited February 3, 2017 by FemmyV

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm awfully tempted by the idea of Arya's going west of Westeros, since it seemed like such a random thing to say.

Not only that, the moment she was talking with Lady Crane was one of the few times I watched Arya's "emotional walls" down. 

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

unless of course Westeros is rendered uninhabitable by the Otherpocalypse.

I think that will be the case, not all Westeros, but maybe a big part of it. I suspect some people will decide to risk their lives in a very uncertain journey to the West. Arya will go with them. Somehow, I think she will find a way to drag a certain Clegane man in all this.

 

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I imagine the kingdoms will go independent, in a loose confederation,

Interesting. Maybe that will happen, maybe not, but I am almost sure that the way Westerosi people think about issues like the proper succession to determine who will be a king, lord, etc. will be different after the Winter apocalypse.

Edited February 3, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I imagine the kingdoms will go independent, in a loose confederation, the IT will be melted down for the Valyrian steel, and Dany, Tyrion, and others keeping some sort of council while Dany and Tyrion stay in KL. 

The Iron Throne was made from the swords of those who surrendered to Aegon, there's no need to melt it when it's the same as regular steel. The few families (like the Starks) who did have Valyrian steel swords were allowed to keep them.

I don't see any sign that the kingdoms will become independent. There's just not enough viable leaders around. Dorne and the Iron Islands, the most culturally different realms, are now Dany's allies. Tyrion is her ally too and there's nothing to suggest that he would want to be King of the Westerlands rather than Lord of Casterly Rock. Jon is king in the North, but the revelation of his true Stark + Targaryen parentage gives him a potential claim to all Westeros and suggests that the end of chaos won't come from the kingdoms splitting apart again but from being united under a monarch who's accepted by all and whose competition has been demolished. Dany wants to be queen and though she'll listen to advice it'll be of the old-fashioned sort given to the restored Targaryen monarch, Jon wants to defeat the White Walkers and became king almost by accident, Tyrion wants to see Dany become a worthy queen and is supporting her as Hand rather than making himself her equal partner: no character is actually thinking of independence or democracy, and there's no buildup in the portrayal of education, trade or politics in the setting for anything other than a monarchy supported by powerful lords.

I think Jon, Dany or Jon/Dany will be on the Iron Throne when the series ends. Tyrion hasn't gotten development that would make him believable as someone who can lead in his own right: he'll either be the Hand, doing the brain-powered but less glamorous stuff in which his dwarfism and lack of martial ability won't be seen as fatal hindrances, or return home to Casterly Rock. Liam Cunningham seems to be so positive about his role lately that I actually feel better about Davos' chances of surviving: if Tyrion won't be the Hand, Davos will be.

I've expected Bran to be the Lord of Winterfell, but if he becomes extremely focused on magic and prioritizes his role as the new super-seer it's actually possible that Sansa's current title of Lady of Winterfell will still be hers when the series ends because Bran refuses the job. The Dreadfort and the Twins are two castles that should, IMO, be given to Sansa and Arya by right of conquest (Sansa married and killed the only Bolton left; Arya killed Walder Frey and letting his treacherous family keep such a prime strategic location would be senseless). So if Bran wants Winterfell, Sansa could be killed or end up somewhere else entirely; if he doesn't, she gets it and lives. Arya could die fighting the White Walkers, but that "west of Westeros" thing also seems weird to me: either it's a totally throwaway moment or the only real buildup we're getting for Arya's unexpected final fate of leaving Westeros for a life of adventure.

For a long time I've wanted to see Sam as the Lord of Highgarden after the Tyrells are crushed. I'm really interested in who gets the major castles (with the Baratheons and Boltons dead, the Freys hated by the Starks, and the Tyrells/Martells/Tullys/Greyjoys in trouble), but I wonder if the show is just going to ignore that as irrelevant background information and be content to say that Tyrion is the Lord of the Rock and a Stark gets Winterfell.

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

If Jon/Arya doesn't happen, I can see Arya being paired with either Gendry or — believe it or not — Jamie. He and Arya are two of the most deadly people on the canvas, two of the most traumatized and disillusioned, and perhaps the best suited to helping keep each other in check. The Starks and Lannisters are going to need some glue to their alliance, IMO, or the old tensions are just going to keep repeating.

There is definitely fic for Jaime/Arya, and there was that amusing scene where Bronn points out that Arya-as-serving-girl is making eyes at Jaime (although she's sizing him up as a potential kill, hee). I'm not convinced that there needs to be a Stark/Lannister romantic pairing at the end of all this to heal the rift between the houses, though, particularly since both Tyrion and Jaime are on Team Jon/Dany according to the leaks by the end of Season 7.

In light of Jon/Dany being a thing, it's hard to see how the show could sell Jon/Arya credibly with only six or seven episodes remaining in Season 8 (and Dany presumably being alive for most those episodes), unless they do a fastforward where Jon and Arya have hooked up. If Jon/Arya is a thing in the books, though, it will definitely be a thing in the show. The same thing applies to Sandor/Sansa, of course, who don't see each other in Season 7, either; if the writers are going to make it believable, they're running out of time.

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think that will be the case, not all Westeros, but maybe a big part of it. I suspect some people will decide to risk their lives in a very uncertain journey to the West. Arya will go with them. Somehow, I think she will find a way to drag a certain Clegane man in all this.

The show has played up the relationship between Sandor and Arya, certainly. If D&D genuinely have no idea what GRRM is going to do with Sandor after AFFC, as Bryan Cogman seemed to imply, they could do worse than to have him platonically sail into the sunset with Arya. 

6 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I think Jon, Dany or Jon/Dany will be on the Iron Throne when the series ends.

I doubt Dany will be alive at the end of the series, and I have my doubts about a legit zombie ending up as king--particularly since GRRM complained about how it was a mistake for JRR Tolkien to bring Gandalf back in LOTR--but I agree that Jon is the first and most obvious choice. GRRM has always been very firm on always having known Jon, Tyrion and Arya's endgames, so whoever ends up on the Iron Throne is going to be one (or more, if Jon marries Arya) of those three.

Quote

Tyrion hasn't gotten development that would make him believable as someone who can lead in his own right: he'll either be the Hand, doing the brain-powered but less glamorous stuff in which his dwarfism and lack of martial ability won't be seen as fatal hindrances, or return home to Casterly Rock.

I thought Casterly Rock would be destroyed by Cersei and/or Tyrion in the books, but in the show, at least, it appears to be still standing as of the end of Season 7, so we'll see. Cersei could always nuke it in Season 8 when she makes her inevitable desperate last stand, I guess, sort of a "If I can't have it, no one can."

I'm a bit stuck on Tyrion's endgame, personally. The show dispensed with most of his book character development after Season 4, bypassing his descent into revenge-fueled rage and darkness and instead choosing to skip to the part (I assume late in TWOW) where he's functional and optimistic again. I think we can safely write off the idea that Tyrion will become a full-blown villain in the books, as many have speculated, since that hasn't happened in Season 7 (and won't happen with only six or seven episodes left in Season 8). Nevertheless, he doesn't seem to have much a point as he is now; he doesn't seem to have any personal ambitions or grudges (unlike Book Tyrion, who's mad as hell and not going to take it anymore), and he's more of a put-upon civil servant at this point than anything else. Even the Season 7 spoilers don't reveal much in the way of character development for him, since his role seems to be the designated voice of reason. Because he's a bit of a blank at the moment in the show, it's hard to see what D&D have in mind for him.

As for his endgame, I see him as a potential backup monarch if both Jon and Dany bite it (since no one is left at this point), but my money's on Jon to win this thing; it depends on whether GRRM wants to wipe out the Targ line or not. Tyrion going back to Casterly Rock in the end seems a bit pat, particularly since he's so hellbent on getting Casterly Rock in the books. Usually, in ASOIAF at least, when a character is hellbent on a goal, they either fail to achieve it, or they do achieve it and it blows up in their face. Tyrion wanting Casterly Rock so badly suggests that he'll never get it. Since Casterly Rock represents for Tyrion everything that his father ever denied him (recognition, status, worth, etc.), I think it would mean for his character development for him to lose or surrender Casterly Rock to someone else forever (Jaime, if he survives this thing), and be okay with that outcome.

In the show, Tyrion post-Season 4 hasn't shown any interest in getting Casterly Rock back for himself. In Season 7, he apparently comes up with a plan to retake Casterly Rock, but we don't know yet whether it's out of his own desire to get it or out purely of a strategic need to cut off an escape route for Cersei.

Quote

Liam Cunningham seems to be so positive about his role lately that I actually feel better about Davos' chances of surviving: if Tyrion won't be the Hand, Davos will be.

I agree. Assuming Jon winds up as king, there's a good chance that Davos will be his Hand. He seems to be already acting as such in Season 7 from the looks of it. Liam Cunningham also said a few years ago that GRRM told him a "secret" about TWOW, that he thought was "pretty cool." He seemed very pleased with it, so I'm hoping that good things are ahead for Davos.

Without any reference to the show, the best hand in the history of the ASOIAF universe, Septon Barth, was a lowborn sort. In fact, this very fact is used to reassure Davos when he balks at the idea of being Stannis' Hand in the books.

Quote

I've expected Bran to be the Lord of Winterfell, but if he becomes extremely focused on magic and prioritizes his role as the new super-seer it's actually possible that Sansa's current title of Lady of Winterfell will still be hers when the series ends because Bran refuses the job.

According to the first Awayforthelads, Bran is spaced out and uninterested in leadership of Winterfell. Of course, that may change if Sansa dies and he has to step up. Sansa is already the Lady of Winterfell as of the end of Season 6, so it's unlikely that she'll still be in that position in the endgame.

Quote

Arya could die fighting the White Walkers, but that "west of Westeros" thing also seems weird to me: either it's a totally throwaway moment or the only real buildup we're getting for Arya's unexpected final fate of leaving Westeros for a life of adventure.

Yes, I agree. The showrunners have also said something to the effect of there being a lot of foreshadowing for the show's ending in Season 4. Season 4 ends with Arya leaving Westeros on a ship, headed for adventure.

With that said, in the books, at least, Arya has been desperate to get back to Jon. It's hard to believe that she would just leave Jon to head off to parts unknown, unless either 1) Jon is dead or 2) Jon goes with her, and as for the latter, I doubt Jon would ever abandon Westeros to its fate unless it's 100% uninhabitable after the White Walkers get through with it.

Quote

For a long time I've wanted to see Sam as the Lord of Highgarden after the Tyrells are crushed. I'm really interested in who gets the major castles (with the Baratheons and Boltons dead, the Freys hated by the Starks, and the Tyrells/Martells/Tullys/Greyjoys in trouble), but I wonder if the show is just going to ignore that as irrelevant background information and be content to say that Tyrion is the Lord of the Rock and a Stark gets Winterfell.

 

I think the fate of Dorne will remain a mystery (since every named character in the Dorne plot will be dead by the end of Season 7). With the Tyrells' downfall and Randyll and Dickon dying in Season 7, the stage seems to be set for Sam to end up as Lord of the Reach. As for the Tullys, I'm guessing Edmure survives the Riverlands mess in the show at least, since he'll be the only living named character in the Riverlands by the end of Season 7; no clue as to what happens in the books, though. We'll know what happens with the Greyjoys, I think; I'm guessing Theon will outlive Yara (although I don't know how that squares with the whole heir situation).

If Arya takes off for parts unknown and Jon winds up on the Iron Throne, by default either Bran or Sansa would end up with Winterfell. Since Sansa was a later addition to the Stark family by GRRM to create drama, I'm guessing he figured out who would get Winterfell without any reference to her. It's a tossup at this point, though, especially since Bran seems content in Season 7 to let Sansa run things.

Speaking of potential throwaway comments that could foreshadow the end, Tyrion had that random speech in Season 6 about wanting to have a vineyard of his own where he could make wine and invite only his closest friends to drink it. (I'm not sure how that squares with Casterly Rock; are there any vineyards in the Westerlands? I thought they were all in the Reach, and that the best wine was made on the Arbor, which is technically an island belonging to the Redwynes.) Anyway, maybe the show will end with a scene, maybe set in the far future, where Tyrion hosts whatever's left of his crew for a wine tasting party. Of course, what I said earlier about ASOIAF characters never getting what they want could apply, and Tyrion's speech could easily be the equivalent of the TV/movie police officer fondly talking about what he's going to do after his retirement, thereby signaling his doom. So I don't know.

The crazy thing is that if there are Season 8 leaks on the order of what happened for Season 7, we might be spoiled as to the end of the show--and, by extension, the end of ASOIAF--by the end of this year.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

I think a lot about Cersei's death. Lena is such an amazing actress so I think her death has the potential to be one of the greatest in the series. I quite like the idea of her poisoning herself, particuarly with the poision that killed Joffrey. I'd love it if they drew paralells between her death and Cleopatra, where she dresses herself in her finest clothes after everyone else has deserted her and her enemies are at the gate, and they come into the Throne Room to find her dead on the Throne. That would be such a powerful moment.

I also quite like the idea of Cersei trying to convince Jaime to poison himself also. He will be with her, trying to get het to run or kneel and spare as ,any lives as possible, only for him to realise that she would rather they both die. He watches as Cersei drinks poison and she holds it out to him, only for Jaime to turn around and leave her. Cersei will collapse to the ground and the last thing she will see is Jaime's feet walking away.

Or alternatively, Jaime is about to kill her for reasons, only Brienne is with him and tries to stop him. Jaime breaks down and lists all the things about Cersei that should make it easy for him to kill her. He calls her a murderer and a monster, but Brienne interrupts and calls her his sister. In this scenario Brienne agrees that Cersei has to die (for reasons) but takes the sword from Jaime and offers to do it for him, to spare him that grief. Then maybe there will cross cutting between the scenes of Brienne approaching Cersei and Jaime waiting outside, having flashbacks to the two of them as children to Casterly Rock. I do like the idea of Brienne killing Cersei on Jaime's behalf, because it would also show the bond between the two, and how Brienne wants to preserve Jaime's honour and prevent him from becoming a Kingslayer.

The final option is that she doesn't die at all. Instead Tyrion makes a case for her being insane and places her under house arrest at Casterly Rock, under his care. Which of course, Cersei will hate probably prefer to die.

Most of all, I would like Cersei's endgame to result in her discovering that the prophecy did not necessarily have to come true, that she could have kept her children and her power, but she didn't. Not because of the prophecy, but because she just wasn't good enough.

[glowbug]

I think both the books and the show have hinted that Dany will have a child and spoilers from season 7 have hinted that Jon will be the father with them becoming lovers. In the books MMD's prophecy is coming true and the last part of it says that Dany will bear a living child before Drogo is returned to her (which could be interpreted as her dying in childbirth though there are other ways in which he could be returned to her as well). In the leaks for season 7 Dany tells Jon she can't have children and they have sex. The fact that she brings up her fertility suggests it is important to the story. The context in which it appears to be brought up makes me think the writers are hinting at her not really being infertile, however, it may be hinting at future struggles over succession. It's oddly placed if that's their goal but not outside the realm of possibilities. Though having Jon a legitimate Targ means there is still hope for a Targ heir assuming he's not infertile from dying and he lives long enough to impregnate someone.

If Jon and Dany both die their child may end up on the throne. I could see Tyrion and/or Sansa being his guardians until he or she comes of age. In the books I could see Arya being a possible guardian but not so much in the show, which has downplayed her connection with Jon and has less time to civilize her again. She could end up as a protector of the child though through the King's/Queen's Guard or unofficially. Or Jon and Dany could live and raise their child together, although I'm not sure how that fits in with a bittersweet ending. If they have a child and one of them survives but the other doesn't that is the definition of bittersweet. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by glowbug

[enoughcats]

Glowbug touches on producing children and inheritors and, to my mind, that should be an important consideration.
Right now, but for Sam, there is precious little in the way of 'next generation' around to inherit castles, and the making of heirs and spares seems farthest from anyone's minds.  Oddly and unpleasantly, Bolton seemed to understand this, but his methods left something to be desired /snark..

This bothers me as it was almost always of major import in the Courts of Europe.  Inheritance was important, and fertile females were important for long term survivorship.  
Killing off offspring has made for interesting story gasps, but the real loss would be no one left to inherit.

[Eyes High]

47 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think a lot about Cersei's death. Lena is such an amazing actress so I think her death has the potential to be one of the greatest in the series. I quite like the idea of her poisoning herself, particuarly with the poision that killed Joffrey. I'd love it if they drew paralells between her death and Cleopatra, where she dresses herself in her finest clothes after everyone else has deserted her and her enemies are at the gate, and they come into the Throne Room to find her dead on the Throne. That would be such a powerful moment.

That would be great. It would also echo what she planned to do with Tommen in 2x09 (in the show, at least). She was getting ready to poison him (and, I assume, herself).

Maggy in the books promised that the valonqar would strangle her, though. I'm not sure how a quiet suicide qualifies. 

The interesting thing is that as of the end of Season 7, the identity of the "younger, more beautiful queen" is still up in the air. Jaime leaves Cersei for good not because of Dany, except perhaps indirectly, and Dany does not strip Cersei of her title of queen and instead strikes a tentative truce. Most surprisingly, Cersei is still very much a threat as of the end of Season 7, when I thought she'd be killed off. On the other hand, D&D love Cersei, so it makes sense that they'd want to keep her around until the climax.

46 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I think both the books and the show have hinted that Dany will have a child and spoilers from season 7 have hinted that Jon will be the father with them becoming lovers.

It's certainly possible. The positioning of the Dany/Jon bangfest in the spoilers--at the very end of the season, juxtaposed with the Wall falling--suggests that their pairing is a big deal from a plot perspective, and if that pairing yields a child who will wind up on the Iron Throne, then it would be even more important.

Quote

In the leaks for season 7 Dany tells Jon she can't have children and they have sex.

We don't know that the script leaks are legit. If they are, though, then the fact that Dany comes out and tells Jon that she can't have kids--albeit to explain why it is that Viserion's loss means so much to her--then that points to a future child, I agree.

As much as GRRM loves the Targs--he wrote a whole book's worth of material about Targ history--from a plot perspective ending the series with a Targ restoration, given how much trouble the Targs have caused over their many reigns, not to mention the spectre of madness in the Targ line, only seems like ensuring further strife down the road. With Viserion dying in Season 7, it seems very likely that all three dragons will die. Symbolically, one would think that the two remaining Targs would go with them. The original decline of the dragons augured the downfall of the Targs' reign, after all.

Quote

If Jon and Dany both die their child may end up on the throne. I could see Tyrion and/or Sansa being his guardians until he or she comes of age.

Neither Tyrion nor Sansa strike me as great parent material, judging from their relationships with Penny and Sweetrobin in the books (not to mention that Book Tyrion never had any interest in having any children of his own and has no idea whether he can even father children), but I suppose it's possible. Such an outcome would echo how the whole Jon mess started: someone raising a relative's Targ orphan. Going back to the books, though, there's not much foreshadowing for either Tyrion or Sansa raising someone else's kid, unless you count their respective forays into pseudo-parenthood in AFFC/ADWD, which frankly don't reflect all that well on either of them. Tyrion does have a good relationship with Pod, true, but I don't know that I would call it parental.

Speaking of children and succession, though, the biggest question for the endgame is what's going to happen with House Stark. Bran is likely infertile (or at least Ned seems to think so, although from modern medicine we know that people with Bran's condition can father children), and it looks like Meera dumps him in Season 7. Jon will either be dead or a Targaryen. Arya and Sansa can just name their kids Starks, much like Lyanna Mormont has her mother's family name, but that presupposes that Arya and Sansa are going to find husbands and have children of their own. If Arya fucks off to "west of Westeros," Jon dies or fathers Targ kids, Bran fathers no kids, and Sansa has no interest in remarrying, then that will be the end of the Stark line.

[Advance35]

I know there has been speculation that there won't be an Iron Throne when all this is over and that is the one outcome I am positive WON'T happen.  I think there will definitely be a supreme ruler when all this is said and done.  Whether that's Dany or Jon, I couldn't say, but I think both of them together would be to "and they lived Happily Ever After."  I do think one of them will die in the Otherpocalypse but I flip flop on which one.

I think Arya will go exploring when all this is said and done, maybe even getting the final sequence before the end credits ala Season 4 finale.   I think Arya and Sansa will resolve their issues this season because they will not see each other again.  I see Arya joining Jon and the rest of his Argonauts and battling sword to sword with the White Walkers.   She'll no doubt live through the whole mess and sail off over the horizon in the end.

Sansa has a few blades aiming for her throat, the biggest being in the North.  I always said if the writers moved Sansa up North when the wall fell than it was curtains.  IF she manages to be evacuated (very possible) I see heading South and I see ugly events playing out involving her, The Undead Mountain and Cersei.  For some reason I can also see Tyrion and Brienne playing significant roles in these particular denouements.  And possibly Varys, so that Dany doesn't have to contend with Cersei when all is said and done.  

I would mix Jaimie in with the above but he is off to fight White Walkers, unless there are a few battles and the realms army retreats a few times and he finds himself in a quagmire of outlooks, vendettas and loyalties.

Whatever does happen, I do think Tyrion will be the HoK to whomever is left standing.

I am curious about what is in store for Theon, he's had countless chances to die heroically, so I think his endgame is going to be more than that, but I can't figure out what.

I could see Sam not making it out of the Otherpocalypse.   There are going to need to be some casualties that make the White Walkers an "Event."

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

they could do worse than to have ....

I do not think Arya and Sandor sailing to the West is matter of being it worse or better, it is just organic within the narrative. If they go for this endgame they are simply following the narrative they already established.

That is the problem with Sansan as show endgame hypothesis, it is not only they are running out of time, it is also they, as far I remember, never wrote "surprise romances" in the show. "Love at first sigh" yes, but never a "surprise" one. All of that besides the actors age issue.

About the endgame scene itself I imagine their usual banter with Sandor wondering what was he thinking when he decided to go in this insane journey, while obviously, Arya tells him stop complaining about it so much. 

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Since Sansa was a later addition to the Stark family by GRRM to create drama, I'm guessing he figured out who would get Winterfell without any reference to her

Maybe there will not be Winterfell at the end of the story. They all will move to the Riverlands while it is rebuild. Maybe she will be in charge of the rebuilding and the little snow castle of "Mockingbird" episode is foreshadowing.

 

1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

Right now, but for Sam, there is precious little in the way of 'next generation' around to inherit 

I suspect a new leadership will be born after the Long Night apocalypse around all Westeros. Even some leaders from the common people. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

27 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

...heading South and I see ugly events playing out involving her, The Undead Mountain and Cersei

A think the North group will be divided in three. One to deal with the White Walkers (Jon will be there), a second one to lead to people in the dangerous journey leaving the North towards the Riverlands (Sansa will be part of it) and a little group in a supposed bloodless mission (Jaime and Tyrion will insist on the bloodless part) to depose Cercei and to send her in custody to Castely Rock. Of course, things will not go as planned. I think Arya will be in this group. Jaime and Sandor too.

[Eyes High]

Quote

Sansa has a few blades aiming for her throat, the biggest being in the North.  I always said if the writers moved Sansa up North when the wall fell than it was curtains.  IF she manages to be evacuated (very possible) I see heading South and I see ugly events playing out involving her, The Undead Mountain and Cersei.  For some reason I can also see Tyrion and Brienne playing significant roles in these particular denouements. 

It would be hilarious if the WW threat were dispatched in, like, one episode, with the remainder of Season 8 devoted to dealing with Cersei.

In all seriousness, though, Sansa's in deep trouble either way. Either she's in the WWs' crosshairs in the North or she gets within range of Cersei's wrath by heading south. We were reminded twice in Season 6 that Cersei wants Sansa dead (once with the play, and once with Jaime's comment to Brienne), and although nothing seems to come of it in Season 7, it seems likely that the final reckoning with Cersei will involve Sansa in some way.

I could see there being some sort of Unfinished Cersei Business Squad winding up having to deal with her, with Sansa, Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, and maybe even Arya in the mix. It would be extremely unsatisfying, not to mention at odds with the prophecy, if Cersei's end didn't involve Tyrion or Jaime. As of the end of Season 7, Jaime is heading north, Sansa is still at Winterfell, and I assume Tyrion is heading north to follow Dany and Jon as well, so right now everyone's heading in the wrong direction if there is to be a major Cersei confrontation.

Quote

I could see Sam not making it out of the Otherpocalypse.   There are going to need to be some casualties that make the White Walkers an "Event."

There was a passage in the books, where the same event is shown in two different POVs: Jon bidding Sam farewell, and telling him to put his hood up, because there are snowflakes in his hair. In Jon's POV, he's reminded of saying goodbye to Robb while it was snowing. Jon never saw Robb again. It's speculated that this passage means that Jon and Sam will never meet again. I quite like the idea of Sam ending up as Lord of Highgarden, though, so I choose to believe that Sam survives. According to the leaks, by the end of Season 7 Sam is back at Winterfell, so it's likely that he will in fact see Jon again.

As for the casualties, as of the end of Season 7, the list of remaining living named Westeros characters is as follows, and this is everyone who's still alive, not even characters who only appeared in Season 7:

Wall: Dolorous Edd

North: Sansa, Brienne, Pod, Arya, Bran, Lyanna Mormont, Maester Wolkan, Lord Cerwyn, Lord Manderly, Meera Reed, Sam, Gilly, little Sam, Karstark heir, Umber heir

Team Dany/wight squad: Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah, Missandei, Grey Worm (?), Jon, Davos, Sandor, Tormund, Beric, Gendry

Riverlands: Edmure, Hot Pie, Jaime (since he's heading north)

Ironborn: Euron, Yara, Theon, Harrag (the guy Theon fights)

King's Landing: Cersei, the Mountain, Qyburn, Frances (Qyburn's minion), Bronn

Reach: Sam's mom, Sam's sister (Talla?)

Throw in Melisandre, and that's it. That's, what, a little over 40 characters total? A number of those characters are nowhere near where the Otherpocalypse is, too (Sam's mom and sister, Cersei, etc.). It's pretty slim pickings as far as cannon fodder goes.

[whateverdgaf]

10 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

A think the North group will be divided in three. One to deal with the White Walkers (Jon will be there), a second one to lead to people in the dangerous journey leaving the North towards the Riverlands (Sansa will be part of it) and a little group in a supposed bloodless mission (Jaime and Tyrion will insist on the bloodless part) to depose Cercei and to send her in custody to Castely Rock. Of course, things will not go as planned. I think Arya will be in this group. Jaime and Sandor too.

If they do split into groups, I would love Jaime, Bronn, Davos, Sandor, Brienne, Tormund and Arya all end up together. There would be so much conflict within the group, it would be fantastic!

I've struggled with imagining Sandor surviving, but I do like the idea of him travelling with Arya. They have both been so damaged by the war I think that they would struggle going onto have relatively normal lives. I could imagine seeing Arya prefer to go travelling, having become used to the danger and uncertainty, rather than stay at Winterfell where she would feel stifled and potentially forced into a marriage to form an alliance.

It's actually characters such as Sandor and Jaime and Brienne I hope to see survive the war because I don't think they would expect to. Sandor and Brienne are soldiers, andJaime and Brienne both seem to live their lives to die for the people they love. As a result I think they would struggle with peace and what to do with themselves afterwards. I would especially like to see Brienne put in a position of power because of how uncomfortable she would feel with it, and I like seeing characters out of their comfort zone. Plus, there has been so much build up for Jaime and Brienne's relationship that I would like for there to be a satisfying conclusion for them, and I wouldn't feel that way if they died as by that point Jaime would have lost Cersei as well as his children and Brienne already had Renly die in her arms. If one were to die and leave the other, it would feel a bit repetetive. They both seem to have equal foreshadowing for dying for each other ('Die defending a Lannister' and 'Arms of the woman I love') that I kind of feel it cancels each other out. I certainly don't feel Brienne will die before Jaime, owing to Jaime's weirwood dream where Jaime's sword went out but Brienne's continued. However, the dream also said that Jaime will live only while the swords still burn, which Brienne's still does, so I think their endgame will be keeping each other alive.

I can see Davos either living and helping to restore Westeros, or dying a heroic death. Same with Tyrion. A part me actually hopes that Tyrion dies, because I know that his death scene; if done well, will be utterly devestating. I'm not sure about Dany, although she has had so many successes over the last few seasons that she is almost definitely headed for a fall, although that might just be her army which is mostly made up of people used to much warmer climates suffering high losses. As for Jon, I quite like the idea of him becoming the new Night's King, forced to live his life away from his loved ones and isolated from the world to keep it safe, meaning the White Walkers are no longer a threat but Jon is doomed to be forever alone. Very Bittersweet.

As for Sansa, I think her survivng could go either way. Considering how her main motivation throughout the series is self-preservation, I think it would be cool to see her give up her life to protect her family, possibly taking down LF. At the same time, I feel that she out of her family is the character best suited for peace.

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

 Inheritance was important, and fertile females were important for long term survivorship.  

My #1 reason for lack of interest in celibate Arya going "West of Westeros." Unless Jon rejects his Targ birthright, Arya, Sansa and Bran are all the Stark line has left.

[glowbug]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We don't know that the script leaks are legit. If they are, though, then the fact that Dany comes out and tells Jon that she can't have kids--albeit to explain why it is that Viserion's loss means so much to her--then that points to a future child, I agree.

I forgot that the infertility talk came from the leaked script pages. There have been so many spoilers and spoiler sources I can't remember which information came from where. I'm less certain now that this will happen but if it does I do think it's pointing at a Jon/Dany baby. 

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Neither Tyrion nor Sansa strike me as great parent material, judging from their relationships with Penny and Sweetrobin in the books (not to mention that Book Tyrion never had any interest in having any children of his own and has no idea whether he can even father children), but I suppose it's possible. Such an outcome would echo how the whole Jon mess started: someone raising a relative's Targ orphan. Going back to the books, though, there's not much foreshadowing for either Tyrion or Sansa raising someone else's kid, unless you count their respective forays into pseudo-parenthood in AFFC/ADWD, which frankly don't reflect all that well on either of them. Tyrion does have a good relationship with Pod, true, but I don't know that I would call it parental.

My speculation was based almost entirely on the show. The books are so far behind that it's really impossible to know where Sansa or Tyrion will be and what their relationships with Jon and Dany will be by the time Jon and Dany meet up and are in a position to have a child together. For that reason anything is possible. In the show Tyrion and Dany have bonded and spoilers indicate he and Jon are on good terms as well. Sansa and Jon are connected and are on good terms when he leaves Winterfell too. Sansa is being set up as a player and Tyrion already is one so they're exactly the kind of people who you would want overseeing the political and financial interests of a future king. The day to day parenting is mostly done by nannies/governesses/etc. in aristocratic families (as it was in actual medieval society) so Sansa and Tyrion's maternal or paternal instincts aren't really relevant. They're both capable of furthering the child's political interests. 

Note: I haven't been impressed with Show Sansa's skills as a player and a politician but I've gathered from what TPTB have said that I'm supposed to be so that's what I'm going off of. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

I can see Davos either living and helping to restore Westeros, or dying a heroic death. Same with Tyrion.

The problem with Davos and Tyrion is that they've been respectively set up as Jon and Dany's Hands (although Davos lacks the title). If Jon or Dany die and both Tyrion and Davos survive, one of them is going to have to find another job.

57 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

My #1 reason for lack of interest in celibate Arya going "West of Westeros." Unless Jon rejects his Targ birthright, Arya, Sansa and Bran are all the Stark line has left.

I'd rather Arya be celibate and off having adventures than forced into a life she has never wanted (marrying and making babies), and the same goes for Sansa if she never wants to remarry, what with her being a rape survivor in the show and all. If they fall in love with some or other upstanding young man and decide they'd like marriage and babies, fine, but I think it's safe to say that the show is running out of time for an Arya or a Sansa endgame romance. If Sansa and Arya rejecting marriage and babies means that the Stark line is extinguished, so be it.

55 minutes ago, glowbug said:

The day to day parenting is mostly done by nannies/governesses/etc. in aristocratic families (as it was in actual medieval society) so Sansa and Tyrion's maternal or paternal instincts aren't really relevant. 

I don't know about that. ASOIAF is full of highborn children scarred for life by awful parenting: Tyrion, Lysa, Sweetrobin, Sam, etc.

Speaking of the endgame, Daniel Abraham, who did the graphic novel adaptation for AGOT, said that GRRM had asked him to rework a particular line of dialogue on the basis that the original line was important for the "final scene of A Dream of Spring." Abraham also said that this line didn't look important on the face of it (or words to that effect). He also said this back in 2011, when the comic adaptation had just started to be released; it took a few years for the entire AGOT comic book adaptation to be released. Anne Groell also said that she was jealous of Abraham, since he had learned Tyrion's ultimate fate from GRRM. Some fans have taken these two bits of information together to assume that the particular line of dialogue somehow involved Tyrion. My sense is that it's more likely something from the first non-prologue POV (Bran). Another possible contender is Jon's teasing "prophecy" to Arya about how she'll be found dead at the end of winter with a needle between her fingers.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Eyes High

[Brn2bwild]

At one time I thought Dany would probably die before the end.  Now that she's likely to have sex with Jon, I think she'll live in order to give birth to a "wolf" prince.

I've long had an epilogue scene in mind.  A few years after the war ends, Daenerys visits Winterfell, now ruled over by Lady Sansa Stark (Bran having heroically sacrificed himself during the war).  Much like another monarch years ago, she asks Sansa to come to King's Landing to serve as her eyes and ears.*  She understands that Sansa's years at court and among people like Littlefinger have made her very good at determining people's motivations, and she is wary of the people at court.  She also wants someone else at court who loves the crown prince.  Sansa then has to determine whether to stay in the North, or risk everything and go South again.  Maybe it will be different this time...

 

 

* I think this would be more plausible if Jon ended up dying in the war than if he remained alive.

[OhOkayWhat]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We were reminded twice in Season 6 that Cersei wants Sansa dead (once with the play, and once with Jaime's comment to Brienne), and although nothing seems to come of it in Season 7, it seems likely that the final reckoning with Cersei will involve Sansa in some way.

Well, I think the play plot and to be more specific, Lady Crane, made a part of the audience to connect the Arya storyline with Cercei's one. All that besides the fact Cercei is one of two people still in her list. I think that in season 8, Arya finally will decide she will not kill Cercei.

 

11 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

If they do split into groups, I would love Jaime, Bronn, Davos, Sandor, Brienne, Tormund and Arya all end up together.

I think the reunion of Brienne and Sandor will be very interesting. And of course, the one between him and Arya will be a very emotional scene. 

11 hours ago, FemmyV said:

My #1 reason for lack of interest in celibate Arya going "West of Westeros." Unless Jon rejects his Targ birthright, Arya, Sansa and Bran are all the Stark line has left.

 

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa and Arya rejecting marriage and babies means that the Stark line is extinguished, so be it.

I agree more with Eyes High here. They need to feel they are free to decide about those things. And I think the narrative will take that road

 

11 hours ago, glowbug said:

I haven't been impressed with Show Sansa's skills as a player and a politician but I've gathered from what TPTB have said that I'm supposed to be so that's what I'm going off of. 

If I am not wrong, i think the showrunners never told the audience Sansa is now a skilled player. I think they only showed Sansa as a new player in the game.

Edited February 4, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In light of Jon/Dany being a thing, it's hard to see how the show could sell Jon/Arya credibly with only six or seven episodes remaining in Season 8 (and Dany presumably being alive for most those episodes), unless they do a fastforward where Jon and Arya have hooked up. If Jon/Arya is a thing in the books, though, it will definitely be a thing in the show. The same thing applies to Sandor/Sansa, of course, who don't see each other in Season 7, either; if the writers are going to make it believable, they're running out of time.

The show has played up the relationship between Sandor and Arya, certainly. If D&D genuinely have no idea what GRRM is going to do with Sandor after AFFC, as Bryan Cogman seemed to imply, they could do worse than to have him platonically sail into the sunset with Arya. 

I doubt Dany will be alive at the end of the series, and I have my doubts about a legit zombie ending up as king--particularly since GRRM complained about how it was a mistake for JRR Tolkien to bring Gandalf back in LOTR--but I agree that Jon is the first and most obvious choice. GRRM has always been very firm on always having known Jon, Tyrion and Arya's endgames, so whoever ends up on the Iron Throne is going to be one (or more, if Jon marries Arya) of those three.

If Jon/Arya was going to happen in the books the show would be setting it up, but since there's no sign of it I believe that's almost a confirmation that their romance was cut after GRRM started revising his early version of ASOIAF. Jon/Arya won't even have their first reunion until Season 8. There's no time to develop any non-Jon/Dany romance, especially one with the little girl who used to be his favorite sister. I'm not betting on Season 8 Sansa/Sandor either, though that's at least more likely than Jon/Arya since Ramsay/Littlefinger will be out of the way, they've shared plenty of scenes and they know they're not related. If Sansa ends the series as a single lady I can imagine her continuing the Stark line with an unknown husband: she's still a young woman, she's always wanted a husband and children more than anything else, and her speech about Ramsay being forgotten would be sadly untrue if she can never in her life have another relationship because her rapes have made her incapable of accepting love and intimacy.

Because there's no POV the Jon/Arya relationship hasn't had the opportunity to be as strong as in the books where they're in each other's thoughts and memories. On the show I actually feel Arya's strongest relationship is with Sandor (and Gendry after that). I like the idea of them continuing their Lone Hound and Cub journeys. Perhaps Arya's bittersweet ending will be that she's reunited with her surviving siblings but can't stay in Westeros because the Faceless Men are out to kill her for leaving them: if that's the case, the show could take that plot point and give it a more uplifting spin by having Sandor go with her and making her decision not just about the need to escape the Faceless Men but a wish to explore the world.

GRRM (he of the endless death fakeouts and three confirmed resurrections of ordinary humans rather than angel-like wizards) has complained about Gandalf coming back and not knowing Aragorn's tax policy, but whoever the endgame monarch is, I don't think we'll be getting any policy information. Jon/Dany/Tyrion defeats the White Walkers and takes the throne, epilogue, the end. We've seen all of them screw up due to inexperience and character flaws while trying to rule and that's the realism we'll get; there will be no book 9 with Jon putting together a small council and fretting over projects to find the money to rebuild everything wrecked by war and Others.

Show Tyrion has no desire for revenge and is a little less fond of politics than Book Tyrion. I can imagine him being happy to be Lord of Casterly Rock, trying to rule well, drinking good wine and inviting his monarch to make friendly visits. The Rock would be more difficult to nuke than KL (where Cersei already has wildfire), so I tend to think Tyrion is safe for the same reason Show Robin Arryn is safe: there's no else who could be lord and the Rock is a bigger deal than the Vale so there must be a Lannister in charge when the series ends. I guess Jaime could stun me by not killing Cersei, not getting killed by the White Walkers, and getting pardoned by Dany, but I'd still bet on Tyrion living. His lack of ambition and transition into more of a supporting character in Dany's storyline rather than someone who drives his own plot (like in the KL seasons) contribute to my belief that he might end up a corpse, lord or Hand but not a king.

I agree that the Greyjoys seem like a "minor" major house with a good chance of getting a show ending that's unambiguous (unlike the Martells) and lets them keep their castle (unlike the Tyrells). Yara isn't confirmed dead, and though Theon can't father children he has a chance to do something in Season 8 that regains the respect of the Ironborn so that they'll accept him as lord (and then we can imagine that he names a relative as his heir after the series ends). I always thought it was unrealistic that a nobody like Gendry would be accepted as the Lord of Storm's End, but since the show merged him with Edric Storm and is apparently having him bond with Jon over their dads being besties, maybe there is a chance after all.

I'd actually be fine with the Starks, Dany and Tyrion surviving. I feel that there has to be a big death, but at the same time all of these characters seem like they have potentially good and useful endings ahead of them. Killing one just for the sake of a big shock death would be cheap: I hope GRRM will be content with having made them go through incredible suffering and reversals of fortune.

[CofCinci]

Jon dies in the big battle. I'm interested to hear if you all think he dies before he learns if he is a father. 

Cersei dies by Jamie's hand. We can probably all agree on that.  Jamie then redeems himself in the big battle - sacrificing himself for someone. Maybe his brother? Maybe for a Stark?

Brienne and Davos probably die in the battle too.  They would want it that way.   I think we'll get a passionate kiss between Brienne and Jamie too before their deaths.

Arya goes West with her Wolf. Tearful goodbye with her sister. At this point their relationship is solid and sisterly. Sansa doesn't want her to go but understands.  Sansa remains at Winterfell, if it survives, with her partner Sandor. If the site was destroyed, we'll catch a glimpse of it being rebuilt. 

Brann either dies in battle or becomes a tree - or both.

If the Wall is also rebuilt, I could see Bronn up there in a leadership role. Perhaps Davos too if he survives.

Dany rules KL with Tyrion as her hand and Sam as a Maester.   Series ends with her telling her baby or toddler about the story of ice and fire before quick cut to some new dragon eggs. 

[whateverdgaf]

30 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

Cersei dies by Jamie's hand. We can probably all agree on that.  Jamie then redeems himself in the big battle - sacrificing himself for someone. Maybe his brother? Maybe for a Stark?

Brienne and Davos probably die in the battle too.  They would want it that way.   I think we'll get a passionate kiss between Brienne and Jamie too before their deaths.

I just think it would be really dissapointing if Jaime's redemption was death. It happens too often and I would rather watch him come to terms with what he has done and go onto live a useful life. PLus having him die to save a Stark just reduces his character and his arc to be about the Starks than for him finding his own ending. Same with Brienne and Davos, it would be far more interesting to see them learn how to cope with surviving the war and no longer being called onto fight. And after all the build up to Brienne and Jaime's relationship, a big kiss before they die would be anti-climatic and cliche.

Overall, I just really hate the whole redemption is death trope. It's too cliched for one and not nearly as interesting or motivating as watching someone redeem themselves into becoming someone who can do a lot of good. That's also why I really don't want Theon to die either.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

If Sansa ends the series as a single lady I can imagine her continuing the Stark line with an unknown husband: she's still a young woman, she's always wanted a husband and children more than anything else, and her speech about Ramsay being forgotten would be sadly untrue if she can never in her life have another relationship because her rapes have made her incapable of accepting love and intimacy.

Not to mention that although she she hasn't been raped (nor is likely to be raped) in the books, so that motivation for shunning marriage and babies wouldn't exist in the books. Even long before Season 5 rolled around, though, book readers speculated that after so many betrothals and one failed marriage, Sansa would refuse to remarry altogether and pull a Maege Mormont when it came to having children. And even as of AFFC, Sansa isn't sure she ever wants to get married again.

It would be funny if after all the fevered speculation about Sansa's endgame husband, she wound up with some anonymous dude a la Peggy Carter. If her ultimate role in the endgame is to continue the Stark line by popping out Stark babies, it hardly matters who her husband is, though. 

Quote

Because there's no POV the Jon/Arya relationship hasn't had the opportunity to be as strong as in the books where they're in each other's thoughts and memories. On the show I actually feel Arya's strongest relationship is with Sandor (and Gendry after that). I like the idea of them continuing their Lone Hound and Cub journeys.

Lone Hound and Cub! I love it! Arya's not much of a cub anymore, but still. The show has really emphasized Sandor's relationship with Arya, to the point where it would almost look like a romantic ship if the characters were the same age (the Waif asking Arya in a lying game how she feels about the Hound, e.g.). Although that doesn't seem to bear fruit in Season 7, it likely will at some point in the series before the end.

1 hour ago, CofCinci said:

Dany rules KL with Tyrion as her hand and Sam as a Maester.   Series ends with her telling her baby or toddler about the story of ice and fire before quick cut to some new dragon eggs. 

If one of Jon and Dany is going to die in Season 8, my money's on Dany, not Jon. If there's any character who has doom written all over her, it's Dany, especially if there's a miracle pregnancy in the mix (GRRM loves him some ASOIAF dead moms). I could see both of them dying, though.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[CofCinci]

Yes, I could see the both of them dying together as well. Jon in battle and Dany during childbirth shortly after.

Who raises the orphaned future king of the world? Tyrion? Sansa?  Perhaps those two end up together again.  Or, like her father, Sansa promises to protect and hide the identity of this child?

Edited February 4, 2017 by CofCinci

[Eyes High]

27 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

Yes, I could see the both of them dying together as well. Jon in battle and Dany during childbirth shortly after.

Who raises the orphaned future king of the world? Tyrion? Sansa?  Perhaps those two end up together again.  Or, like her father, Sansa promises to protect and hide the identity of this child?

Sansa, I guess. It's easier for me to see Sansa as a parent rather than Tyrion, maybe because Tyrion is the closest thing to a self-insert GRRM has in ASOIAF and GRRM himself has no children (and self-insert GRRM characters in other works don't have kids, either). It would be really, really hard for Sansa to pass off Jon and Dany's baby as anyone other than Jon and Dany's baby. Lyanna was able to be pregnant and give birth in secret, and Dany will be centre stage for the war against the WWs. Not to mention that any child would be three-quarters Targ and therefore likely to have distinctive Valyrian features (silver-gold hair, e.g.). With that said, assuming "Aegon" in the books is indeed Aegon and not an impostor, Illyrio and Varys were able to manage the trick of raising a known Targ child in secret; however, they had to go to Essos to do it to do it, something neither Tyrion nor Sansa would be keen on doing.

Realistically, though, if Jon and Dany die and Tyrion survives, Tyrion will be the one running things, whether it's through a regency for the infant Targaryen or some other mechanism. It almost seems like the writers are kind of "keeping time" with Tyrion in Season 7 from what we've heard, so either they're saving him up for something big in Season 8 (heroic self-sacrifice or what have you), or he's just going to be sort of there as the designated voice of reason for Season 8 and then wind up as Hand and/or Lord of Casterly Rock in the end.

Even though Tyrion, Jaime and Sansa are far or headed far from Cersei as of the end of Season 7, I'll feel downright cheated if there isn't some sort of final reckoning. Tyrion and Jaime do have confrontations with Cersei in 7x07, but nothing cataclysmic happens; Tyrion and Cersei's conversation ends without violence, and Jaime just up and leaves Cersei. Nor is there any follow-up from the ominous reminders that Cersei wants Sansa dead. Cersei's been such a key character in GOT--even more so than in ASOIAF, I think--that I'll be disappointed if her end isn't sufficiently impressive. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I agree more with Eyes High here. They need to feel they are free to decide about those things. And I think the narrative will take that road

You really think JRRM created House Stark, only for it to be swept into the wind? "The House that puts family first will always defeat the House that puts the whims of its sons and daughters first." Seems like that's supposed to be one of story's lessons; even if Tywin was too extreme about it, it'd be a shame if the main protagonists never pick up on it.

Edited February 4, 2017 by FemmyV

[CofCinci]

What does everyone think will be the catalyst for Jamie to kill Cersei?  It seems as though she miscarries and fakes the continued pregnancy. Is the reveal of that deceit enough to push Jamie over the edge?

I figure HBO will go to greater lengths to add foilers for the last season - they'll even go as far as to stage fake on location filmings.  

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

You really think JRRM created House Stark, only for it to be swept into the wind? "The House that puts family first will always defeat the House that puts the whims of its sons and daughters first." Seems like that's supposed to be one of story's lessons; even if Tywin was too extreme about it, it'd be a shame if the main protagonists never pick up on it.

Sansa and Arya unwillingly submitting to marriage when neither of them wants it--especially when one of them feels that way because she's already been subjected to one forced marriage and in the show universe has been raped multiple times--to continue the Stark line would be downright bitter, not bittersweet.

Also, Tywin was free to rabbit on about the importance of putting family first because he believed he could strongarm his kids into going along with his wishes (and it made him a hypocrite because he chose to marry for love, a luxury he denied Tyrion). I pity the fool who tries to strongarm assassin extraordinaire Arya or murdered-her-last-husband Sansa into marrying when they don't want to do so. Besides, who's left to order them into these unwanted marriages? Jon, who adores his sisters and was horrified by Sansa's ordeal? Dany, who has never forgotten what it felt like to be sold to her husband? Tyrion?

All the unwanted Westeros marriages involved people being dragged to the altar by their parents or their captors. Sansa and Arya's parents are dead, and they're no one's captives. If they marry, it will be because they truly wish to and not out of a sense of duty.

21 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

What does everyone think will be the catalyst for Jamie to kill Cersei?  It seems as though she miscarries and fakes the continued pregnancy. Is the reveal of that deceit enough to push Jamie over the edge?

I figure HBO will go to greater lengths to add foilers for the last season - they'll even go as far as to stage fake on location filmings.  

Hearkening back to Bran's vision in AGOT of the two soldiers, I'm guessing there will be some sort of Sansa/Mountain/Cersei/Brienne mashup that will draw Jaime in. A popular theory before Season 6 was that Cersei would order that KL be nuked with wildfire and that Jaime would pull an Aerys, but the show played the wildfire card already with the sept. 

Said final confrontation may take place at Casterly Rock. We know from the spoilers that Tyrion plans an attack on Casterly Rock, but there are no reliable spoilers about what supposedly happens as a result. There are hints in the books that may suggest that Casterly Rock is doomed. The one that jumps out for me is the phrase "eternal as Casterly Rock," which pops up twice in the books. The first instance is in AGOT, where Robert says "At the moment, Lord Tywin looms eternal as Casterly Rock, so I doubt Jaime will be succeeding anytime soon." Two books later, Jaime thinks "But Tywin Lannister endured, eternal as Casterly Rock." We all know what happened to Tywin. Could Casterly Rock be equally doomed?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa and Arya unwillingly submitting to marriage when neither of them wants it-

Ah. I am operating under the assumption that's not always going to remain the case.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Although that doesn't seem to bear fruit in Season 7, it likely will at some point in the series before the end.

I wonder about the exact moment the showrunners decided to move the Sandor narrative towards Arya. Was it planned since the beginning? Did they just realized the Arya-Hound popularity after season 3? Was it all about the last big GRRM-D&D meeting few years ago? Maybe there was not a single exact moment? In any case, I think one of the big reasons why they went for it was because the non-romantic nature of their relationship.

 

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

You really think JRRM created House Stark, only for it to be swept into the wind? "The House that puts family first will always defeat the House that puts the whims of its sons and daughters first." Seems like that's supposed to be one of story's lessons; even if Tywin was too extreme about it, it'd be a shame if the main protagonists never pick up on it.

I think Tywin was wrong about many things. And he was wrong about the big picture too. The story is about how Houses defeating Houses, and how all this game is actually a very absurd thing to do. It should be Houses helping each other and everyone working together to face the Long Night apocalypsis. And even without the apocalysis it is also absurd, it only caused pain, corruption and death to everyone, even to the own members of the Houses.

54 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Ah. I am operating under the assumption that's not always going to remain the case.

Do you mean that eventually Sansa or Arya falls in love and marry? If it is years later and they are old enough to make those decisions, that is a different case then. In that case Sansa and Arya are making freely their own decisions to marry.

In my opinion, I think Sansa eventually will marry and have babies. I have my doubts about Arya. I think that is one of the reasons she likes Sandor company: their relationship is not a romantic one.

Edited February 4, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[whateverdgaf]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

In my opinion, I think Sansa eventually will marry and have babies. I have my doubts about Arya. I think that is one of the reasons she likes Sandor company: their relationship is not a romantic one.

I would like for Sansa to end with some hope for romance in her life. Not even necessarily with a particular person, just the possibilty of her finding one. I think for her to retain some of that hope and dreams for romance she had when she was young would be really satisfying for her character.

[OhOkayWhat]

40 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I would like for Sansa to end with some hope for romance in her life. Not even necessarily with a particular person, just the possibilty of her finding one. I think for her to retain some of that hope and dreams for romance she had when she was young would be really satisfying for her character.

Sometime ago I read someone saying Sansa is a person "in love" with "love". Perhaps it is true and one of her victories will be just that: that even after all the things she suffered, her heart still believes in romance and having a family and all those things.

We will see all this in her eyes but we will not know much more about her hypothetical husband. We will believe Arya will finally heal and return home someday but we will not know when.

Someday the Spring will come, just not yet. But we will feel the hope, i think. And we will see the dream.

Edited February 4, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I wonder about the exact moment the showrunners decided to move the Sandor narrative towards Arya. Was it planned since the beginning? Did they just realized the Arya-Hound popularity after season 3? Was it all about the last big GRRM-D&D meeting few years ago? Maybe there was not a single exact moment? In any case, I think one of the big reasons why they went for it was because the non-romantic nature of their relationship.

It depends on whether GRRM told them what he was planning on doing with the Hound in that 2013 meeting. Someone in the know (can't remember who) said that GRRM told the writers in the 2013 meeting when they asked him about certain characters' fates that he didn't know where they would end up. Given that the Hound is a minor-ish character, he could fall under that category.

If GRRM did tell the writers he didn't know what he was ultimately going to do with the Hound in 2013, they may have pounced on Sandor's connection with Arya and built on that, particularly since their scenes together were so well received. If he did tell them, then maybe Sandor and Arya's relationship comes back into focus in the books in some way; Liam Cunningham in a recent interview implied that all the important character relationships would be the same as in the books.

56 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I would like for Sansa to end with some hope for romance in her life. Not even necessarily with a particular person, just the possibilty of her finding one. I think for her to retain some of that hope and dreams for romance she had when she was young would be really satisfying for her character.

Well, as long as she's alive at the end of the story, that hope will remain.

I do wonder whether there will be some sort of small or big time jump at the very end of GOT past the immediate aftermath of the war against the WW; LOTR, which heavily inspired GRRM, had a time jump at the end of two years. If Bran gets the last POV in ADOS, he could have a vision of the future that would provide the means for the time jump.

[nikma]

Arya - sailing west of Westeros with Sandor

Sansa - Lady of Winterfell

Bran - dead, sacrificed himself to take control of ice dragon

Jon - the King of the Seven Kingdoms

Dany - dead, sacrificed herself to defeat the WWs

Cersei - Killed by Jaime

Jaime - dead in the war with the WWs

Sam - lord od the Reach with Gilly and his mother and sister

Tyrion - lord of the Rock and maybe HoK

Davos - maybe HoK

Melisandre- dead, she will willingly die of old age after the defeat of the WWs

Theon - on the Iron Islands, as lord or as Yara's advisor

Euron - dead, killed by Theon

Edd - dead, fighting the WWs

Robin Arryn - lord of the Vale, still

Jorah - dead, fighting the WWs

lord Glover - sacrificing himself to save Jon, Bran or some other Stark

the rest of the northern lords, including Lyanna Mormont - alive and well

Gendry - lord of the Storm's End or sailing with Arya and Sandor

Qyburn - killed by Varys

Grey Worm - Dead

Brienne, Varys, Missandei, Pod and Bronn - alive

Edited February 4, 2017 by nikma

[SeanC]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:37 PM, FemmyV said:

The Starks and Lannisters are going to need some glue to their alliance, IMO, or the old tensions are just going to keep repeating.

The Starks and the Lannisters have not, historically, had that much to do with each other.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:22 PM, Advance35 said:

I could see Sam not making it out of the Otherpocalypse.   There are going to need to be some casualties that make the White Walkers an "Event."

Sam is actually the sort of character I think makes a poor casualty for the Otherpocalypse.  The thesis of his story, so to speak, is kind of spelled out by his introduction, where Thorne is basically setting him to up to die tragically in a training accident because he's useless in a fight, but Jon recognizes that Sam is actually invaluable to the Watch for his other skills.  When you have a character who is meant to incarnate the point that brainpower is useful, having him die because they're not good at combat kind of undermines that.  I'm not saying that it couldn't be made to work, but it'd be tricky.  Sam's the sort of character you'd stereotypically expect to die in a zombie apocalypse, and for that reason I think he kind of loses impact as a casualty.

13 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

If I am not wrong, i think the showrunners never told the audience Sansa is now a skilled player. I think they only showed Sansa as a new player in the game.

They've called her a good player on a number of occasions.  For instance, in the BTS for episode 605, we're told by Weiss that the events up to this point have shown us that Sansa has gotten "pretty good" at playing the game.

[bunnyblue]

6 hours ago, CofCinci said:

I could see the both of them dying together as well. Jon in battle and Dany during childbirth shortly after.

Oh, gods no, I hope not. That would just be a repeat of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I sincerely hope GRRM and D&D come up with something more original than that for their 2 main heroes.

I believe that either Jon or Dany will die (my money is on Jon because he's my favorite and things have been going too well for him lately, so of course he'll die for the realm) but not both. After everything they have done and will do to save humanity, I feel at least one of them should live and rebuild and rule the realm. Not because they are Targaryens but because they earned it. 

The way I see it is if there is a pregnancy as a result of boatsex, then that kid and Dany will live and Jon will die. But if there is no pregnancy, then I can see Dany dying during the war and Jon living. But I certainly can not envision Jon and Dany and their child getting to live happily ever after on the Iron Throne. 

[whateverdgaf]

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

Qyburn - killed by Varys

I've got a headcanon that Qyburn is working for Varys; which is how he managed to get control of his Little Birds so quickly, and will turn the Mountain against Cersei.

Davos will die. He may get injured on a mission or something and tell the others with him to leave him behind rather than have him slow them down. We don't see his death, just him being left to die alone in the snow, or else one his friends will make it quick and give him a mercy kill.

Dany will die or return to rule over Essos, realising that has become her home.

Arya will go travelling, but promises to return home one day in an emotional goodbye with Jon and Sansa (if they're still alive). She will also meet Melisandre and force her to use her powers to cross another one of her names off her list.

Varys dies a surprisingly heroic death, in service of 'the realm'.

Pod also dies heroically saving his friends and leaving Brienne, Bronn and Tyrion devestated. Though Bronn tries to hide it.

Brienne and Jaime both survive, much to their surprise. Brienne will be offered a place at Winterfell or on the Kings/Queensguard, but turns it down and decides to go home with Jaime instead, or join in him exile.

Tyrion finishes his Jackass and honeycomb joke, or at least tries to with his dying words, only to die before he reaches the punchline.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

 

They've called her a good player on a number of occasions.  For instance, in the BTS for episode 605, we're told by Weiss that the events up to this point have shown us that Sansa has gotten "pretty good" at playing the game.

 

Yes, they did say this, but the context was that she was acting using her mind, not heart. She realized that LF could be useful to her in the future, so she spared his life. It was a political decision not to kill him at that moment, not emotional. 

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

They've called her a good player on a number of occasions.  For instance, in the BTS for episode 605, we're told by Weiss that the events up to this point have shown us that Sansa has gotten "pretty good" at playing the game.

You are right. They said that. But also I think it is not so simple as to say she is skilled at the game.

If I am not wrong they also said in the same BTS that she was good at playing in a Littlefinger's kind of way. And I think they also said that, even after he betrayed her in a terrible way, he still had influence over her.

In other words, as Tyrion made us remember: there is a game and there is a bigger game. Lets think  a bit about sports: There are little leagues and big ones. You can be pretty good at playing a sport...in the little league. It does nor mean you are ready to play in the big one.

And I think when the showrunners said something like "she is getting pretty good at playing the game" they are not talking about the bigger game (and of course, they are not talking about the biggest picture: the Long Night). And when in the same commentary they made us remember Petyr has influence over her, the showrunners are telling us that even with her game skills, she is still somehow, a pawn. And that gives us a new perspective of the vision the showrunners have about Sansa.

So, it is true they said that, and you are right pointing at that, but it is also something not so simple, because the context of that BST tell us than even if they say she is getting pretty good at playing they also said something to make us remember that she is still a pawn.

[OhOkayWhat]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It depends on whether GRRM told them what he was planning on doing with the Hound in that 2013 meeting. Someone in the know (can't remember who) said that GRRM told the writers in the 2013 meeting when they asked him about certain characters' fates that he didn't know where they would end up. Given that the Hound is a minor-ish character, he could fall under that category.

The interesting thing is to tie your commentary with what Cogman seems to said about the Hound.That D&D does not know about his fate. Even if we think "it is okay, he is a secondary character", it also mean we also somehow got some info about Sansa and Arya future. 

I think it is possible in the books (where it is much more focus in Sansa-Sandor than Arya-Sandor) both sisters will discover their own opinion about him is incorrect. Sansa romantizes him. Arya had nightmares about him as a monster. Both them are wrong and part of the maturity process is to understand people is much more complex than that.

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I do wonder whether there will be some sort of small or big time jump at the very end of GOT past the immediate aftermath of the war against the WW; LOTR, which heavily inspired GRRM, had a time jump at the end of two years. If Bran gets the last POV in ADOS, he could have a vision of the future that would provide the means for the time jump.

This. I wonder about it too. Maybe it depends on what they want for the show ending: an open endgame where the characters go to the unknown of their lives with hope and many issues to solve. Or maybe an ending with a big sense of closure for the audience. 

By the way, I noticed something. If I am not wrong, in the same episode when Arya talks about her own West of Westeros "endgame", we have Tyrion talking about his own vineyard "endgame" too. Coincidence? I do not know.

Again, this thread is really nice.

Edited February 5, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It would be funny if after all the fevered speculation about Sansa's endgame husband, she wound up with some anonymous dude a la Peggy Carter. If her ultimate role in the endgame is to continue the Stark line by popping out Stark babies, it hardly matters who her husband is, though. 

After all the Sookie/Bill/Eric drama True Blood ended with Sookie pregnant by some nameless dude played by a crew member. That would be a pretty happy ending for Sansa.

Tyrion could actually choose not to marry because there are so many Lannister cousins that he's got plenty of potential heirs left. I don't remember if anything has been said about Greyjoy cousins, but I don't think their situation is as bad as that of the current generation of Starks - we know Catelyn wasn't able to offer any Northern relatives as reasonable alternatives when Robb wanted to make Jon his heir.

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

But I certainly can not envision Jon and Dany and their child getting to live happily ever after on the Iron Throne. 

Me, neither.

15 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Pod also dies heroically saving his friends and leaving Brienne, Bronn and Tyrion devestated. 

Nooooooo! But also yeah, probably.

12 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

The interesting thing is to tie your commentary with what Cogman seems to said about the Hound.That D&D does not know about his fate. Even if we think "it is okay, he is a secondary character", it also mean we also somehow got some info about Sansa and Arya future. 

I think there's about a zero percent chance that D&D don't know exactly what's going to happen with Sansa and Arya.

As for Sandor, though, I'm not sure that Cogman's statement about not knowing what GRRM is going to do with Sandor in hiding means that GRRM didn't tell them Sandor's endgame. He might have just meant that GRRM has no idea how or why Sandor is going to leave the Quiet Isle, but that he did tell D&D that he winds up fighting Gregor (Cleganebowl get hype!) or marrying Sansa or what have you.

Quote

By the way, I noticed something. If I am not wrong, in the same episode when Arya talks about her own West of Westeros "endgame", we have Tyrion talking about his own vineyard "endgame" too. Coincidence? I do not know.

It's hard to know if Tyrion's vineyard endgame speech and Arya's "west of Westeros" talk are just filler bullshit or something more significant. As far as I know, the "Inside the Episode" bits didn't explain either. For Tyrion, at least, the vineyard speech could be something that signals his doom, since we all know in war movies that the ones who talk about what they're going to do after the war are the ones who get picked off first.

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

After all the Sookie/Bill/Eric drama True Blood ended with Sookie pregnant by some nameless dude played by a crew member. That would be a pretty happy ending for Sansa.

Yes, I remember. They picked the stuntman with the best arms to play her husband, hee. In the book series on which True Blood was based, however, Sookie didn't wind up with an anonymous guy, she ended up with a major named character.

I could see GOT ending as the True Blood show did, though: with a big party scene reuniting the surviving characters. Set it in Tyrion's vineyard or something. The Armageddon Rag, another one of GRRM's works, ended the same way. 

Quote

Tyrion could actually choose not to marry because there are so many Lannister cousins that he's got plenty of potential heirs left.

It's very unlikely that the Lannisters will be wiped out as some have speculated because of Tyrion's many Lannisport Lannister cousins. It does seem fitting that Tywin's line be ended, although Tyrion doesn't have to die prematurely for that to happen, just have no legitimate issue. Joy Hill (Tyrion's favourite uncle's bastard daughter) could be a possible heir. Some have speculated that Tysha is the Sailor's Wife and that Lanna, her daughter, is Tyrion's, so if Tysha and Tyrion ever reunite, maybe Tyrion leaves Casterly Rock to Lanna. Given the TV show changes, however, I think we can rule out a Tysha/Tyrion reunion.

Personally, I'd find Tyrion ending up with Casterly Rock kind of pat. I'm more interested to see what Tyrion would do if getting Casterly Rock were permanently foreclosed to him as an option. If he winds up as endgame Hand to whatever king or queen is left standing or as lord of Casterly Rock, he'd just wind up in Tywin's shadow, stuck with Tywin's poisonous legacy. He'd be striving to surpass Tywin or, in the alternative, to stick it to Tywin, but it would ultimately all be about Tywin. I'd like to see him strike out on his own and leave all of Tywin's bullshit behind, whether that means rebuilding the Wall, becoming a maester like he'd once wanted, or anything, really, as long as he was walking away from the Lannisters. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I think there's about a zero percent chance that D&D don't know exactly what's going to happen with Sansa and Arya.

As for Sandor, though, I'm not sure that Cogman's statement about not knowing what GRRM is going to do with Sandor in hiding means that GRRM didn't tell them Sandor's endgame. He might have just meant that GRRM has no idea how or why Sandor is going to leave the Quiet Isle, but that he did tell D&D that he winds up fighting Gregor (Cleganebowl get hype!) or marrying Sansa or what have you.

You are right, is possible the Cogman's commentary means that other possibility too. That is the reason I am still not so sure they do not know Sandor fate and that is the reason I included the word "seems". 

About Sansa and Arya, maybe they know exactly their endgames... but what if they know exactly that they both will have open endings? Example: they know that Arya will go to find the West of Westeros and they know she still is not so sure when she will be back. They also know that she is trying to heal and all the things she also feels the moment she takes her ship. If that is the case, then they know exactly her endgame but also they know it is an open ending.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

As far as I know, the "Inside the Episode" bits didn't explain either.

Well, if Arya's and Tyrion's wishes are actually their endgames, it makes sense they did not talk about it in the "Inside the Episode" bits, because including those scenes they already said too much.

I think there will be some version of Cleganebowl, but it will not be about vengeance.

Edited February 5, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's very unlikely that the Lannisters will be wiped out as some have speculated because of Tyrion's many Lannisport Lannister cousins. It does seem fitting that Tywin's line be ended, although Tyrion doesn't have to die prematurely for that to happen, just have no legitimate issue. Joy Hill (Tyrion's favourite uncle's bastard daughter) could be a possible heir. Some have speculated that Tysha is the Sailor's Wife and that Lanna, her daughter, is Tyrion's, so if Tysha and Tyrion ever reunite, maybe Tyrion leaves Casterly Rock to Lanna. Given the TV show changes, however, I think we can rule out a Tysha/Tyrion reunion.

Personally, I'd find Tyrion ending up with Casterly Rock kind of pat. I'm more interested to see what Tyrion would do if getting Casterly Rock were permanently foreclosed to him as an option. If he winds up as endgame Hand to whatever king or queen is left standing or as lord of Casterly Rock, he'd just wind up in Tywin's shadow, stuck with Tywin's poisonous legacy. He'd be striving to surpass Tywin or, in the alternative, to stick it to Tywin, but it would ultimately all be about Tywin. I'd like to see him strike out on his own and leave all of Tywin's bullshit behind, whether that means rebuilding the Wall, becoming a maester like he'd once wanted, or anything, really, as long as he was walking away from the Lannisters. 

Oh, I really like the idea of Tywin's line ending with single lord Tyrion. It's a nice compromise since I'll be very surprised if Tyrion dies: the Lannisters keep the Rock but it's Tywin's killer who rules and he won't give him grandchildren. So much of Tyrion's identity is tied up in being a Lannister that I have a hard time seeing him choose to leave it all behind; at best, he'll be free of the need to think of Tywin all the time and just do what makes sense and is good for his land without feeling the burden of his family's past.

Another point in favor of Jon, Dany or their baby getting the throne: GRRM recently announced the publication of yet another Targaryen short story, as posted in the TWOW thread. The planned big history is named Fire and Blood after their words and GRRM seems to love writing about the Targs so damn much that I can't see him ending their legacy by making a Lannister the next king or having the kingdoms gain independence.

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Well, if Arya's and Tyrion's wishes are actually their endgames, it makes sense they did not talk about it in the "Inside the Episode" bits, because including those scenes they already said too much.

Wouldn't it be kind of on the nose for both Arya and Tyrion to give away their endgames in fairly obvious fashion in the very same episode, though? D&D aren't exactly known for their subtlety, but still.

Aside from that, Tyrion's dream of owning a vineyard is particularly bizarre, since 1) he's never mentioned it before, 2) just because Tyrion loves drinking wine doesn't mean that he has any knowledge of how to grow it (much like Tyrion himself pointed out in Season 3 that being good at spending money doesn't mean that you know anything about how to manage it), 3) it's at odds with the political career he seems resigned to, and 4) he would have to leave the Westerlands to do it, since all the Westeros vineyards are in the south. Besides, Tyrion's dream as stated in 6x08 starts out with "one day, after our queen has taken the Seven Kingdoms," an event which now sounds as if it will never take place. As Tyrion himself admitted a few seasons ago, he's irresistibly drawn to power politics (and Varys made a similar observation in Season 5); it's hard to believe he would leave the endgame king and/or queen to fend for themselves and head off to a peaceful retirement in the country, unless of course they give him the boot for whatever reason.

Quote

Oh, I really like the idea of Tywin's line ending with single lord Tyrion. 

It's fine as far as endgames go, it's just rather...predictable, you know? Tyrion as endgame Lord of Casterly Rock: I'm pretty sure most of the fandom has that in the pool, at least those who are watching the show and are aware that Tyrion as a supervillain is never going to happen.

I do enjoy the show blowing holes in some endgame theories, either directly or indirectly: Jon/Val, Dany as Jon's nemesis, Arya serving the FM forever, Bran stuck in the cave, Rickon as endgame lord of Winterfell, etc. I expect that to continue in Season 7: we can add to the list the theory of Tyrion dying of greyscale, since in the show universe greyscale is apparently curable. (The show also implied that Tyrion wouldn't contract greyscale, since they left out Tyrion being told that he would never be "safe" from the disease no matter how much time passed since he had been exposed.)

One interesting question is what the show will do with Dorne in the end, if anything. We know that as of the end of Season 7, all the living named Dornish characters, constituting the leadership of Dorne now that the Martells have been murdered, have been killed off. Will the writers ignore the question of who will be in charge in Dorne or will they include a line or two indicating an as-yet-unnamed-character will be running things? Speaking of show plots blowing holes in endgame theories, I wonder who on Earth is supposed to be running things in Dorne in the books when the dust settles. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It's fine as far as endgames go, it's just rather...predictable, you know? Tyrion as endgame Lord of Casterly Rock: I'm pretty sure most of the fandom has that in the pool, at least those who are watching the show and are aware that Tyrion as a supervillain is never going to happen.

I do enjoy the show blowing holes in some endgame theories, if only by omission: Jon/Val, Dany as Jon's nemesis, Arya serving the FM forever, Bran stuck in the cave, etc.

Honestly, at this point I feel the endings are heading in a predictable direction (which I don't think has to be a bad thing). The six main POVs are alive and will all be on the same side in season 7. With Sansa/Arya about to team up against Littlefinger and Tyrion's darker side cut, I doubt they'd betray each other; it feels like at most there could be Jon/Sansa-style disagreements about what is the best way to handle a specific situation. That leaves death in battle, maybe death by Cersei for Sansa or Tyrion, yet none of the main characters feels definitely doomed to me. I loved the Night's King/Viserion leak because it blew up years of speculation about the three heads of the dragon in a way I hadn't expected but which felt very appropriate and satisfying when I thought about it. If there's a twist for Tyrion in season 8, it'll be something unpredictable like that.

[SeanC]

20 hours ago, nikma said:

Yes, they did say this, but the context was that she was acting using her mind, not heart. She realized that LF could be useful to her in the future, so she spared his life. It was a political decision not to kill him at that moment, not emotional. 

Yes, they said she was very good at playing the game.  They also note that her anger at him in that scene isn't about that, it's a personal matter, but that she lets him live because she thinks he might still be useful, which calls back to the starting point that she's a good game player now in their view.

20 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

You are right. They said that. But also I think it is not so simple as to say she is skilled at the game.

If I am not wrong they also said in the same BTS that she was good at playing in a Littlefinger's kind of way. And I think they also said that, even after he betrayed her in a terrible way, he still had influence over her.

In other words, as Tyrion made us remember: there is a game and there is a bigger game. Lets think  a bit about sports: There are little leagues and big ones. You can be pretty good at playing a sport...in the little league. It does nor mean you are ready to play in the big one.

And I think when the showrunners said something like "she is getting pretty good at playing the game" they are not talking about the bigger game (and of course, they are not talking about the biggest picture: the Long Night). And when in the same commentary they made us remember Petyr has influence over her, the showrunners are telling us that even with her game skills, she is still somehow, a pawn. And that gives us a new perspective of the vision the showrunners have about Sansa.

So, it is true they said that, and you are right pointing at that, but it is also something not so simple, because the context of that BST tell us than even if they say she is getting pretty good at playing they also said something to make us remember that she is still a pawn.

What "bigger game"?  They said, straightforwardly, that Sansa's pretty good at playing the game of thrones at that point (and that's before the whole Northern story plays out, which they evidently think is a strategic masterstroke on her part), that's what they want viewers to take away from it.  They also note that Littlefinger has influence over her; that doesn't negate the earlier stuff, it's a complicating factor.

Edited February 5, 2017 by SeanC

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Aside from that, Tyrion's dream of owning a vineyard is particularly bizarre,

 

It is not bizarre at all. You are speaking too much about the logistics of vineyards, but what that line meant was that he want acceptance, he want to have friends, There is a brief moment in that scene where it is obvious that he realized that he does not have friends to share that with him.

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It's fine as far as endgames go, it's just rather...predictable, you know?

So what? It is the best way to end his story after he was rejected so much by his family, after he has tormented by his father it makes sense to have him as the heir to CR in the end.  In the show and in the books, even more, he was always referred as the true Tywin's heir. 

Do you have any other better alternative?

I don't understand why everything that makes sense is rejected by some people because it is "predictable". It si "predictable" because it makes sense.