S03.E07: The Counterfeit Presentment of Two Brothers

[formerlyfreedom]

The royals prepare for the People's Gala; each member of the family is auctioned off for charity; Cyrus initiates a plan to retain his crown; Liam and Robert square off in a charity boxing match.

[catrice2]

Finally got a chance to watch without recording and still missed some parts.  I know there are those that love a love story and cant' wait until his return , but until the new guy's "warts" are revealed, I say Jasper who???!!!  Who is playing the Prince that had a date with Eleanor?  For me the "who is the hottest," contest stops now, even though Beck was looking good. 

Very romantic of Robert.  He deserves better than what's her name, and I saw real sparks between him and what's her name?  the one that was interviewing him about his likes and dislikes.  She is much prettier anyway. 

Don't know if Robert really lost on purpose, but I did not need the montage with Liam getting back up with the girl as the inspiration.  Why didn't she just tell him she was there waiting for his brother?  He certainly put Liam down pretty easily later.  Does he even know why Liam is so mad at him? Have they talked about it?   It is jarring to hear him keep asking Liam if he is ok and telling him that he loves him when he was the one thought dead and lost on an island or whatever for months.   Who is asking after his welfare?  

Is Helena's assistant going to go crazy or was that just real jealousy?  

Why was Eleanor dressed as a dominatrix ?   I just can't with her.  One minute she has on a dress that looks like something from Alice and Wonderland, and the next all she needs is a whip. 

Saw the bodyguard thing coming a mile away, as well as the Cyrus set up with Saffron. 

William Moseley is obviously in good shape, but there is something strange about his body shape or his head or something. I can't put my finger on it. I find nothing attractive about him.

Don't the "ladies in waiting" give Eleanor any advice? We all know it is a no no to go to be in a full face of makeup.

Don't discount the idea of Liam/Cyrus alliance. 

How many episodes are in a season?  I feel like nothing has really happened. 

[kat165]

Catrice, I thought it was real jealousy. It's nice to see Helena a bit more
in the story even if it concerns a love interest which doesn't interest me
much.

And here I though Liam with his fight club experience was gonna beat the
shit out of Robt. Guess not. It was hard to watch Liam's face in some of
those closeups. Ridiculous. The Twitter kids are probably still swooning.
I don't find Liam attactive either and that's probably because he's too
boyish and his character is behaving very immaturely and spoiled right now.

I think there are 10 eps in a season. We're almost wrapping this one up.

I found this ep kind of boring, probably because no Jasper. Sorry, Catrice.
The new guy does nothing for me. But glad you're enjoying him. :)

[omgsowicked]

My first thought was that the prince who bought time with Eleanor was an annoyingly obvious rebound hottie but he actually turned out to be quite nice. However, I was really feeling Eleanor and Rosie (the army girl who took down that guy at the party). If that was just set up to get her to be Eleanor's new bodyguard, fine, but if she's a possible love interest (judging by the cologne/perfume comments), I'm into it. Though dating another bodyguard probably isn't a good idea, lol. Either way, if one or both of those people become good friends to Eleanor, then I'll be very happy. Also, I couldn't help but wonder if the talk about places in line (I think Eleanor said she had nothing to worry about, in terms of succession) was another hint that she might become a contender. I don't think she's stable or focused enough yet but I would love for her to take the crown away from Cyrus, Liam, and Robert.

I was annoyed that that slimy reporter followed up by trying to screw over Eleanor, and I'm even more annoyed thinking that it really didn't have to be like this. Jasper could have just told Eleanor what was happening and she'd (clearly) know how to handle it. On the other hand, I'm happy for the break from the two of them. Even though most of her story was still about Jasper, I'm so happy we got to see her show off her creativity (designing the gala stuff) and interact with other people. What that reporter should be doing is reporting on the obvious acrimony between Robert and Liam, which is a far juicier story than Eleanor's love life. I'm hoping they start showing that the media is onto their drama or else it seems like a weird oversight.

I still think Liam's being a baby and needs to stand up for himself (verbally, not physically) but I also see why he's pissed. Robert's being pointedly pompous toward him and is getting a chuckle out of it every time. "I don't want to keep knocking you back down, I love you brother." Really? He seems particularly pleased about being #1 and rubbing Liam's face in it. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Robert or his addition to the cast, and I do think it's messed up that the family isn't doing more for his mental welfare (letting him jump back into the fray without any kind of therapy). However it's jarring to see this compared to what we were told about him... perhaps Liam's memories of Robert became much more positive after his "death" and this is really what it was really like. They keep saying that they loved and missed each other but they don't act like it. They need to let their guards down and have a productive conversation, and I'm not sure that'll happen.

Oh, and Robert and Willow had some vibes in this episode. I thought they had better chemistry than he and Katherine do but I'm hoping they won't go there. If they do, then that better not be what gets Liam to realize he's into Willow, too. It's unnecessary; he has history with her (that we've gotten to see for over a season now) so they don't need to use Robert to make them a thing. Plus, it would really make it look like Liam's motivations are about wanting what Robert has rather than having real emotions toward either woman. Had a chuckle at all the Harry Potter talk, as the actress who plays Willow had a part in the third HP film. Also appreciated the Gemma mention earlier in the episode.

The Queen and that American guy... I thought they had good chemistry but I wasn't expecting them to do a love triangle. I'm not sure how to feel about any of it because I don't really know what that American guy's purpose is yet. Seemed a bit business-y but I don't know. Since some of the charity picks were rigged, perhaps hers was as well? Maybe Cyrus knows about her and the chamberlain so he's trying to stir shit up for them.

I really liked the jacket Cyrus wore during the boxing match, and his comment about Helena's eye rolls was funny. The storyline with the kinky privy council guy... I knew it was a set up but that seemed like a lot of work to come to that conclusion, lol. And Cyrus is one to talk about weirdness, he slept with his body double (who looks exactly like him, as he's played by the same actor), among many other things.

They showed an outside shot of the castle with that bridge... still waiting for the guy Cyrus poisoned and dumped in the river to be brought up again.

[kat165]

omg, I'd be happy to see Eleanor acquire some honest friends too. Girl
could use some. If she's not going to be with Jasper I'm ok with her
being with the woman bodyguard too. :)

That slimy reporter could still screw with Eleanor. When E told her basically
to fuck off she also added that she could write what she wants. So, we don't
know what the reporter will end up writing or if it will ever be referred to
again.

I am also annoyed that Jasper didn't just tell Lenny what was going on. Part
of the reason Lenny was in the good place that Jasper mentioned to the reporter
was because of their relationship. I'm ok with break from them too. I liked to
see her doing other things but I hope she's not going to eventually be doing
anybody else. :) I'm really fond of Jasper.

I agree with your comments on Robt & Liam.

I also thought Robt & Willow had more chemistry than R & Kate. But I think the
Willow actress is more engaging and it's easier to have chemistry with her. She
also has chemistry with Liam, hell even the queen.

What part did the Willow actress play in HP? She seems unfamiliar to me.

[GaT]

This show is getting very boring,they need to do something to bring back the interest (cousins, cousins, COUSINS), also, what did they do to Eleanor's makeup? Her eyebrows looked like they were applied with a sharpie & her blush looked like clown makeup.

[omgsowicked]

1 hour ago, kat165 said:

What part did the Willow actress play in HP? She seems unfamiliar to me.

She played Pansy Parkinson but only in the third movie... not sure why she was recast. Here's a picture.

[waving feather]

HAHAHAHA. Liam is such a whiny loser. I keep laughing when he was acting like a rabid chihuahua. I can't with the Liam actor and his facial expressions. I can't feel sorry for him because he asked for it. He asked to compete with his brother. Also his face when Robert credited Eleanor for organizing the gala and didn't mention him. So, he just wanted Robert's attention, is that it? Is that why he was acting out like a 4 year-old? Not because he is jealous of Robert but jealous he is not getting proper attention from Robert.

And now I'm shipping Robert and Willow hard. She is a good match for him on paper as well, at least more than Kate. And she seems like she can handle herself and his cockiness. Robert needs someone who will put him in check.

Edited January 23, 2017 by waving feather

[Popples]

9 hours ago, catrice2 said:

 

Finally got a chance to watch without recording and still missed some parts.  I know there are those that love a love story and cant' wait until his return , but until the new guy's "warts" are revealed, I say Jasper who???!!!  Who is playing the Prince that had a date with Eleanor?  For me the "who is the hottest," contest stops now, even though Beck was looking good.

Prince Sebastian was played by Toby Sandeman, and I sure as hell wouldn't kick him out of bed for crumbs. More him please. At first I thought he was going to be the new bodyguard, but was pleasantly surprised when it turned out to be Rosie. I thought James had set that up, because from far enough away, Rosie could pass to be Eleanor's body double.

Liam's best friend who has the hots for Willow made me remember: what the hell happened to Liam's old best friend Ashok? Where did new best friend (don't know his name) come from? What happened to all of the friends Liam (and Eleanor) used to have? They were total party animals, and maybe their absence is supposed to show how Liam and Eleanor have slightly matured from that scene, but the fact that none of them are around is strange.

If there are only three episodes left, something interesting needs to happen in a hurry, or I don't know if I'll watch a fourth season.

[kat165]

Thanks, omg. What a cute kid. She could have played Wednesday Addams!

waving feather, yeah, Liam's faces were hilarious. Agree with you about Willow. Kate
is just too tame for him.

Poppies, good question about the friends from season 1.

I'd also like something interesting to happen before the end of the season. But I
know if it doesn't I'll be watching season 4 anyway.

[waving feather]

21 minutes ago, kat165 said:

I'd also like something interesting to happen before the end of the season. But I
know if it doesn't I'll be watching season 4 anyway.

Same. I like Helena, Cyrus and Robert too much to stop watching. I do wish we see them "ruling" the country a bit more. It's just a Gossip Girl redux the way it is now.

However, if they kill off Robert, I may not come back for S4. The difference between Liam and Robert is, Robert didn't mind losing (fake or real) to achieve a greater goal (earning more for the charity), whereas Liam couldn't look at the big picture and take things way too personally.

At least Eleanor is not circling the drain after her breakup. It's about time she grew up a well.

I think eventually Liam is going to team up with Cyrus to take down Robert but he would regret it because Cyrus would never have his best interests at heart.

[gazebo]

Poor Kliam looked like Kathryn just kicked him in the balls in that last scene where he sees her in Robert's arms.  Kathryn can't seem to make up her mind between the two brothers.  I think Liam should ju st dump Kathryn. He should just date the girl who is head of King Liam fan club.

I don't know why but I suddenly miss King Cyrus ridiculous daughters.  They were really entertaining and I need to see those funny royal bimbos.

[catrice2]

Wow, Cyrus has children? 

[gazebo]

Cyrus daughtersThey were supposedly patterned after Duchess Fergie's 2 daughters.

[EarlGreyTea]

Wow, where have they been hiding this Robert and Willow chemistry? He seemed to actually sit up and pay attention in scenes with her. No offense to the Kathryn actress, but the character is unbearably bland, and she might have been more interesting in a stronger actress's hands. She looked smashing in that purple dress, though.

They seem to be villainizing Robert, IMO. Which is fine with me, because the show needs one and he automatically makes everyone else more interesting. I hope the writers don't kowtow to the fans and get rid of him to appease the Liam supporters.

God, Liam is such a whiny baby. Goes to show how siblings can bring out the absolute worst in each other. I now know why Robert chose to stay on the island so long, if this was the welcome home he got.

Edited January 24, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[catrice2]

Well, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on the new guy. He is too good to be true...handsome, a good listener, understanding, etc. I was half waiting for them to show him meeting up with the reporter to give her intel. Maybe he will end up asking Eleanor to be his beard or something because he has a boyfriend.  Didn't really understand the drinking from the flask. 

Yes, I agree that Kathryn is so bland. I can't even imagine one of them wanting her, let alone both!  Hopefully they can leave her to Liam and move Robert on to someone else really quickly.

Someone mentioned that Eleanor was known for partying, ,drugs and having a girlfriend. So is Cyrus openly bi-sexual and did everyone know Helena had an affair?  If so then why would it be a big deal for Eleanor to date her bodyguard, even if he is a thief or Robert to date Kathryn?  

[Athena5217]

9 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Well, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on the new guy. He is too good to be true...handsome, a good listener, understanding, etc. I was half waiting for them to show him meeting up with the reporter to give her intel. Maybe he will end up asking Eleanor to be his beard or something because he has a boyfriend.  Didn't really understand the drinking from the flask. 

Yes, I agree that Kathryn is so bland. I can't even imagine one of them wanting her, let alone both!  Hopefully they can leave her to Liam and move Robert on to someone else really quickly.

Someone mentioned that Eleanor was known for partying, ,drugs and having a girlfriend. So is Cyrus openly bi-sexual and did everyone know Helena had an affair?  If so then why would it be a big deal for Eleanor to date her bodyguard, even if he is a thief or Robert to date Kathryn?  

The viewing audience knows Cyrus is bisexual, but we have seen no evidence that this is publically known on the show. Helena's affair was made public after Simon's death. As far as Robert dating Kathryn, I think the problem is that he is the heir to the throne. Liam and Eleanor have more freedom to date commoners than Robert does.  See Prince Charles and Prince Andrew for how the issue of dating who you want played out for the heir and the spare. 

I think a thief, especially one who attempted to steal jewelry that belongs to the kingdom, would be universally frowned upon as a boyfriend for a princess. Eleanor dating a woman may be as big a problem to some people, but not to all.  Theft is a crime in the United Kingdom. Lesbianism and bisexuality are not. I know this is a fictionalized version of the U.K., but I doubt it strays that far from the real place.

[catrice2]

Was Simon ever on the show, or was he dead when it started? I started watching after he was dead and they were figuring out who killed him. I missed how Jasper and Eleanor met, and how Robert died. 

[waving feather]

28 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Was Simon ever on the show, or was he dead when it started? I started watching after he was dead and they were figuring out who killed him. I missed how Jasper and Eleanor met, and how Robert died. 

Simon was on the show from day 1. The show actually opened with Robert's death.

I didn't want Robert to come back from the dead previously because it's predictable and I didn't know if I would like the character. But now I'm so glad Robert is around and that they brought him back.

[NutMeg]

Willow has amazing chemistry with anyone. 

[Shenanigan]

Quote

I'd be happy to see Eleanor acquire some honest friends too. 

I miss Mr. Hill being her bodyguard/confidante. I always found their scenes together so sweet and touching.

[peachmangosteen]

On 1/23/2017 at 7:00 AM, waving feather said:

And now I'm shipping Robert and Willow hard.

This was my main take away from this ep. I am already super into it. They better not waste Willow on Liam! Just put Liam with Kathryn and let them be boring together.

Robert was such a dick in the last scene with Liam. It was kind of hilarious.

[Popples]

Shannon Lawson was played by Sarah Barrand (I loved Footballers Wives so much) and Saffron (Dame Sinnamon; the reason she keeps telling Cyrus to call her Saffron is because it's the more expensive spice) is played by Scarlett Archer. If you watch Call the Midwife, she was on the first episode of the second series, if it's of any use.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Popples
Inserted links

[EarlGreyTea]

On 1/23/2017 at 0:42 AM, kat165 said:

omg, I'd be happy to see Eleanor acquire some honest friends too. Girl
could use some. If she's not going to be with Jasper I'm ok with her
being with the woman bodyguard too. :)

I don't think Eleanor has had a legit friend since Ophelia in season 1. I really loved their friendship, which they kept up even when Liam and Ophelia were on and off. Aside from the Liam storyline, Ophelia/Eleanor is an often overlooked casualty of Ophelia's departure.

In another vein, I'm not even completely sure Liam likes Kathryn for herself. Would he really have given  a damn if Robert hadn't been with her first? Sure, he met her first and was intrigued, but I'm convinced much of the attraction is to get one over on Robert. The girl is just too bland to inspire this kind of devotion.

Edited January 25, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[gazebo]

I think Eleanor's new female bodyguard is going to be her new best friend.

[kat165]

cartice, I don't know if the general public knows about Helena's affair (ok, I see someone has already given more details on this, sorry) or even Cyrus's bi-sexuality (although he's never tried to hide what an ass he is otherwise!), but Eleanor famously drank and partied and hooked up throughout seasons 1 & 2. There was even a funny headline in the paper in either season 1 or 2 about the "royal beaver."  Which is why her being with her bodyguard is hard for me to see as some big scandalous secret. He's having been a former thief, however, might raise an eyebrow. Because really, what kind of palace security lets that slide?

Shenanigan, I liked Mr. Hill as Eleanor's body guard too. It seems like we see less of him now. I love their relationship.

[Shenanigan]

Quote

Shenanigan, I liked Mr. Hill as Eleanor's body guard too. It seems like we see less
of him now. I love their relationship.

I know! More of Mr. Hill and less of his spawn, I say! 

[phoenics]

Add me to the list of people gobsmacked by the Robert/Willow chemistry - holy crap - where did THAT come from?  Robert manages to have better chemistry with Kathryn than Liam, but his chemistry with Willow was just out of this world.  Now I WANT Kate with Liam and let's let Willow mix it up with Robert.  It would be EPIC to pit the two of them together.  Good gosh I actually cannot believe it.  THAT is the kind of chemistry shows BEG for.

Liam is just an idiot and a spoiled child.  I can't with him anymore.  I see the show is trying to villainize Robert to make me cheer for Liam, but in the fight when he was envisioning Kate and using his hatred of his own brother (who survived a horrible ordeal to come back to them) to get back up off the mat - what the hell show?  Am I REALLY supposed to root for Liam?  I know the fangirls are - but what the eff?  Liam looks horrible and he looks like he ABSOLUTELY HATES Robert.  At least Robert is just teasing him - he has NO idea about Kate so he doesn't know why Liam hates him so much if they've always had this kind of banter.

I don't like how they have Robert "rubbing it in" with Liam either - it doesn't make him look good.  But honestly with the passive aggressive BS Liam keeps throwing, I don't blame Robert for shoving Liam back to put him in his place.

BUT - Liam looks TERRIBLE.  Liam knows he's been trying to get with Robert's girl and that he wants Robert's throne - Robert doesn't know this.  Robert thinks he has a brother who loves him and instead he's got a jealous brother who hates him and wants what he has.  When Liam told Cyrus he wasn't him, I was like - well you're close enough!  That whole fight, Liam looked like he wanted to KILL him.

But anyway - let Liam have Kate.  Save Willow for Robert.  Good Lord.  I still can't get over it!  I think that eventually her affair with Liam is going to come out and that is going to make Robert dump her.  And then maybe he might pursue Willow in an act of revenge.  The two of them actually have much better chemistry than any other couple on the show, sans Jaspenor.  Wow - I'm shocked.

The Helena/whatever/triangle - meh.  The billionaire dude is just boring looking.  I'm rooting for the help.

Prince Sebastian.  Hot d@mn!  MORE!  Jasper is hot - but Prince Sebastian is simply smoking hot.  That guy is gorgeous.  I loved that he was a nice guy too - but I kept suspecting that he was working for that reporter.  I don't like that reporter honestly.

The only problem is - aren't there only 3 episodes left?  And we have no news of another season.  Sooo... not like they're gonna get through all of this stuff that quickly - so we'll be left hanging in any case.

[waving feather]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Good gosh I actually cannot believe it.  THAT is the kind of chemistry shows BEG for.

Right? And the best part is how organic their banter was. Robert started out disinterested and was just humoring her because that's what he does... But somewhere along the line, a light bulb switched on and he took notice of her for real and even turned back to look at her as she was leaving. That's how you create organic chemistry, writers. Not the Liam and Kate BS. Speaking of Kate, I hope Liam gets to have her but even so, they have zero chemistry so that's boring.

They showed Willow dropping a bunch of tickets into Liam's box. Please tell me they are not implying she is into Liam and it's the start of another love triangle. One love triangle between 2 brothers is bad enough. Not another one!

[Athena5217]

I am confused by Prince Sebastian. He said he is 7th in line to the throne, which must make him Eleanor's cousin, but they did not seem to know each other before the auction. This seems unlikely because if there is one thing members of royalty know well, it's each other. Also, who are his mother and father? do Simon and Cyrus have a brother or sister who has never been mentioned? Robert should be king, then this is what I think the order of succession is:

1) Liam: he is first as long as Robert has no kids and any kids of Robert knock everyone else down a notch

2) Eleanor

3) Cyrus 

4) Cyrus's unnamed son: assuming male primogeniture is in effect; if not he is after Maribel

5) Penelope: older daughter of Cyrus

6) Maribel: younger daughter of Cyrus

7) Sebastian: he is probably the son of either a) a deceased sister or deceased younger brother of Cyrus and Simon or b) a deceased first cousin of Cyrus and Simon.

I don't think it was explicitly said thst Sebastian was 7th in line to the throne of "England", but that seemed to be implies and I would think it would be stated if he was in the line of succession for a different country like Denmark.

I don't know why I bother to think about these issues when the writers clearly don't.

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I don't think it was explicitly said thst Sebastian was 7th in line to the throne of "England", but that seemed to be implies and I would think it would be stated if he was in the line of succession for a different country like Denmark.

I assumed in was 7th in line for some other country, but only because I remember reading about his character earlier and it said he was the Prince of some other country. I do think they should have made that more clear in the actual show though.

[kat165]

phoenics, Willow seems to have chemistry with everyone. I think it's the actress who appears to be a much better actress than the one who plays Kate. Willow even has chemistry with Helena. And it's not that the character has a more dynamic role than Kate.

It would be pretty shitty of Robt to dump Kate if/when he finds out Liam pursued her. He was declared dead. I see nothing wrong with Liam and Kate getting together at that point.

Yeah, Robt is rubbing it in. But I think in a kind of mean/teasing way. I don't know why Robt is doing this unless Liam's aggression towards him is really getting on his nerves. Which maybe it should. From Robt point of view Liam's sudden aggression must make no sense. In context of how their relationship was illuded to prior to Robt's death.

Helena: I'm rooting for the help too. Millionaire man is too bland.

Feather, did Willow drop all those tickets into Liam's box before she found out that his new relationship isn't going so well? (And what does she see in him? Although before Robt reappearance Liam was doing pretty well for himself. Not now however. Now he's some angry whiny baby asshole.

Sebastion: I think he did mention (in the episode) that he's from another country. I think Eleanor had heard of him but that they had never met. I don't find him attractive at all. I hope he and Lenny become friends rather than lovers.

[Popples]

5 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

4) Cyrus's unnamed son: assuming male primogeniture is in effect; if not he is after Maribel

Cyrus' son isn't in line for the throne because he never legally married Prudence. The officiant was really Helena's gynecologist and not ordained, so the kid is illegitimate.

[Athena5217]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I assumed in was 7th in line for some other country, but only because I remember reading about his character earlier and it said he was the Prince of some other country. I do think they should have made that more clear in the actual show though.

Thanks for the info! I wish a few lines had been added to clarify this.

[Tigris Tv]

Also see the Robert - Willow chemistry, but not just chemistry of two actors, Robert seemed to double take after her (when she says she's a Ravenclaw - iirc), the writing seems to be leaning into it a little.  I could see relationship with Kate not working out, and Robert pursuing Willow and being jealous of Liam because Willow is so team-Liam.  I don't know where they plan to take that, but I have a feeling I'm not going to like it (ie. Liam will come around to recognizing her value only when Robert does).

I think Robert treats Liam the way he does because he's a bit bitter about their situations/responsibilities.  I think he avoided that first boat because he didn't want to go back to this, and now that he has it's worse than he imagined (his Father dead, Cyrus king, his brother acting up the way he is, etc.).  If he was wanting to avoid this kind of position, he must be feeling a bit of .... resentment?  Pressure maybe?  Especially with Liam making things worse (getting drunk and fighting with Beck just before the balcony ceremony, giving staff the day off at Christmas but without the advance planning that normally happens and Robert has to rally spirits, giving him attitude etc.). Robert needles him, but I think he's angry and resentful about it all and at some point is going to burst.

Really want more Willow and Robert.  Maybe Willow will finally actually ask him how he is doing/what happened on the island?

[phoenics]

On 1/26/2017 at 1:34 PM, kat165 said:

phoenics, Willow seems to have chemistry with everyone. I think it's the actress who appears to be a much better actress than the one who plays Kate. Willow even has chemistry with Helena. And it's not that the character has a more dynamic role than Kate.

It would be pretty shitty of Robt to dump Kate if/when he finds out Liam pursued her. He was declared dead. I see nothing wrong with Liam and Kate getting together at that point.

Yeah, Robt is rubbing it in. But I think in a kind of mean/teasing way. I don't know why Robt is doing this unless Liam's aggression towards him is really getting on his nerves. Which maybe it should. From Robt point of view Liam's sudden aggression must make no sense. In context of how their relationship was illuded to prior to Robt's death.

 

Wait - I don't understand.  Robert would be wrong for dumping a woman who has slept with both him and his brother?  How?  She was kissing Liam and making out with him even AFTER he came back from the dead.  Yes she eventually ended it - but how could Robert possibly continue with her - once he realizes SHE is the reason (one of the main reasons) why Liam is being so shitty, antagonistic and angry at him.  How could Robert choose a woman who is literally tearing his family apart and who could bring down the monarchy?  The only thing he could do that would be somewhat noble would be to let her be with Liam if that is what she wanted, but I can totally see how he himself might not be able to get over the fact that Liam was in love with her and constantly looking over his shoulder to make sure Liam isn't coming for him.

I get it that this show seems determined to give Liam's behavior validity since this is mostly from his PoV, but think about it.  Robert has been living with Liam in his shadow and possibly at his back his whole life.  His whole life, Robert has probably had to wonder if Liam wanted what he had.  And then to be faced with Liam/Kate?  But Robert's the shitty one for dumping her once he finds out?  Bull.

Honestly - Robert's teasing/chiding/whatever is mild compared to how I would act if I came back from the dead and my sister kept acting like she wished I'd stayed dead.  Robert proves over and over why he should be King.  He understands the role and understands it's not about the limelight or even himself.  He literally took a fall in that fight - he let Liam win - at the expense of his own pride - even knowing that Liam was genuinely fighting him out of some kind of hatred he probably doesn't full understand.  He took a loss - because of the double wager Cyrus put down.  He put his country and that charity FIRST.

Liam is incapable of doing that.  For him, being King is about HIM.  That's why he'll never be ready.  I don't care how much this show tries to convince me that Liam should be King - he shouldn't.  Robert proves over and over that he should.

And Robert should be with Willow too - she's wasted on Liam.  Let Liam have Kate.  Sadly I think the show wants Liam/Willow, which is why she's still holding a torch for him (blegh).  Sad to see that chemistry wasted.  That's the first time I've seen Willow not look like a teenager wistfully staring after a guy she likes.  She actually seemed like a fully adult woman - and now I want her to be like that all the time.  It's too bad that with Liam she's forced into acting like a teenager because William Moseley can't hold his own with her.

[kat165]

I don't see anything wrong with Liam and Kate having gotten together after they thought Robt was dead. Why not? He always liked her. She needs to move on. I am still under the impression that since Robt's return Liam and Kate HAVE NOT slept together although perhaps there's been some kissing? But I don't recall this happening either. Kate's been indecisive and she might have kissed Liam once and pushed him away.

If Kate & Liam had continued to carry on once Robt returned and expressed to Kate that he would like to see her again then I think that's pretty shitty. And that's where I think our difference of opinion comes in. We're remembering 2 different scenarios.

You seem to be thinking that they have carried on "beind Robt's back" and I am thinking that that they haven't. If I thought that Kate & Liam have continued to sleep together after Robt's return and after he's expressed to Kate that he'd like to get back together then I agree with you.

Sorry for the over explanation but I am finding that often my posts are misinterpreted. In another thread I got a reply that made no sense to me at all in terms of what I'd said. I thought I had been quite clear that I did notice 2 things that happened. But this other poster just reiterated them to me - well, duh, I know - so I completely missed the point of their post. Did their post even have a point?

Also, please don't get the impression I'm arguing with you or think that I am right by thinking Kate & Liam did not continue their relationship. I honestly don't know if I'm recalling it correctly.

So, if Robt dumped Kate after finding out that she and Liam had gotten together when they thought he was dead it would be shitty  - or rather just unfair - of him to dump her for that reason alone. But if the K & L kept carrying on after R's return and his talk with Kate then I don't think it shitty for him to dump her.

I'm no champion of Liam. He seemed to be doing well before Robt's return, from what he'd been doing in the previous 2 seasons, but ever since Robt's come back he's been angry and resentful and immature.

I agree with your comments on Robt being king. Liam is not mature enough in comparison.

"Honestly - Robert's teasing/chiding/whatever is mild compared to how I would act if I came back from the dead and my sister kept acting like she wished I'd stayed dead. "- did you mean to imply Eleanor or Liam here? I haven't gotten the impression that Eleanor has been acting like she wishes Robt were dead.

Do you really think the show is trying to convince us that Liam should be king? I ask because it seems so obvious to me that he shouldn't be. If that's what the show is trying to imply than they're doing a poor job of it.

I agree about Willow. There's chemistry there, none at all with Kate. Kate is just pretty. Willow has substance. And Kate kind of annoyed me with her dithering over the two brothers.

 

[phoenics]

On 1/28/2017 at 0:02 AM, kat165 said:

I don't see anything wrong with Liam and Kate having gotten together after they thought Robt was dead. Why not? He always liked her. She needs to move on. I am still under the impression that since Robt's return Liam and Kate HAVE NOT slept together although perhaps there's been some kissing? But I don't recall this happening either. Kate's been indecisive and she might have kissed Liam once and pushed him away.

If Kate & Liam had continued to carry on once Robt returned and expressed to Kate that he would like to see her again then I think that's pretty shitty. And that's where I think our difference of opinion comes in. We're remembering 2 different scenarios.

You seem to be thinking that they have carried on "beind Robt's back" and I am thinking that that they haven't. If I thought that Kate & Liam have continued to sleep together after Robt's return and after he's expressed to Kate that he'd like to get back together then I agree with you.

It doesn't really matter if they had sex or not.  The making out (that did happen) was enough of a betrayal, but I could kinda let that go since they were still in shock.  This was right after Robert came back.

What I can't forgive is Liam running to Kate after the Christmas dinner debacle where he was a petulant spoiled whiny baby to Robert and the two of them got in a tiff over it - but then Liam ran to Kate's place afterwards and begged her to be with him.  "You have a future with me!"  WTF was that?  That was horrible.  That was a REAL betrayal on Liam's part.  What would have happened if Kate had agreed?  They would have gone to Robert and shoved that betrayal in his face?  Liam was SO wrong.  The ONLY thing that saved him was Kate rightly turning him down.

So - yes - Liam did exactly what you said would be pretty shitty.  Check the Christmas episode.  

[kat165]

I can concur with you on Liam running to Kate after the Christmas debacle. He's a mess and not thinking straight. This hasn't been a good season for Liam character-wise. He's a mess.

But perhaps it would have been better if Kate had agreed to be with him, then Robt could dump her and maybe check out Willow. :) A much more interesting pairing. I'm still not getting the feeling that Kate is wholehearted committed to Robt but that may be the acting or the way it's being written. She comes across still as hesitant and unsure.

I wonder if Robt was to show more interest in Willow if Liam would suddenly be knocking on her door.

[phoenics]

If Robert moved on from Kate after finding out what she and Liam did and found Willow, Liam would be in love with Willow so fast our heads would spin.

I think Kate's hesitance is her fear that Robert will find out about her and Liam - she kinda mentioned that to her sister.  Kate looks a lot more engaged with Robert now that he's brought her out into the open.  Honestly - Willow would be much more interesting of a character for Liam/Robert to fight over, but right now I can't stand Liam, so I'd rather see Robert/Willow.  Which means it will never happen, lol.  I'm sure we'll get Liam/Willow - even though Willow had far more spark with Robert than Liam.  I think Liam worked better with Kate - but that's probably due to the forbidden nature of it.  

[methodwriter85]

On 1/24/2017 at 4:30 AM, NutMeg said:

Willow has amazing chemistry with anyone. 

I really wonder what the show might have been like if she had been cast as Ophelia instead. Ophelia really did feel like a core character, and Liam/Ophelia was clearly set up as a core couple...and then...well, we know what happened.

Robert is clearly much taller and bigger than Liam- that feels like such a great casting choice. Liam's realization that he had been had was pretty funny. It's just strange to watch this guy just lose his absolute shit over the past season because of Robert.

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They seem to be villainizing Robert, IMO. Which is fine with me, because the show needs one and he automatically makes everyone else more interesting. I hope the writers don't kowtow to the fans and get rid of him to appease the Liam supporters.

I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I lean towards thinking they'll keep him around if a season 4 happens. If you think about it, Robert turns Liam into the scrappy, wounded underdog that you want to root for, instead of the bland prince who gets everything he wants that he was for the first two seasons. If you really want to make the fan girls squee, you make the cute guy angsty and "longing", which is basically what they did to Liam this season. Liam was mostly affable the first two seasons; now he's all angsty and whatnot.

If anyone's ever seen One Tree Hill, Robert kind of fulfills the Dan Scott role as the older, morally grey brother who the "rootable" young brother has conflicts with.

[phoenics]

Lucas does look an awful lot like Liam in terms of looks now that I think about it.

But if the writers think they've created a Nathan/Lucas dynamic on this show, they haven't.  Liam is acting more like Nathan did in the beginning when Lucas was a threat to all of his entitlement.  I wonder if the show thinks fans perceive Liam as being more in personality like Lucas.  He's more like Nathan (entitled) in behavior.  Liam now needs a Hayley to bring him back to the S1 rootable character he was.

I'm not sure Robert has a real parallel because I don't agree that he's made Liam rootable - he's accomplished the opposite of that for me - he's made Liam seem more and more childish and selfish.  Liam has become unrootable this season.  Maybe young fangirls see him as rootable - but when you stack up Robert's and Liam's actions, Liam definitely comes off worse.  You can't be the wounded puppy dog when you're acting churlish, entitled and like you wish your brother stayed dead.  They're shooting for Liam as wounded underdog and getting younger Cyrus instead.

I don't see Robert as Dan Scott at all because Dan Scott was an asshole with nearly no morals and he wasn't a nice guy at all.  Horrible relationship with his wife, horrible to most people.  He barely cared about anyone except fame through his son.  Robert isn't Dan Scott.