S08.E09: The Simple Intimacy of the Near Touch

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Stefan and Damon return to Mystic Falls at Sybil’s request as she is still in search of the historical artifact. Bonnie returns from Paris wearing a vile of Enzo’s blood making Caroline, wonder if she will become a vampire. Stefan, Damon, Caroline, Bonnie and Enzo all attend the Miss Mystic Falls pageant where Sybil continues to taunt Damon with memories of Elena.

 

[srpturtle80]

Why is each episode 3 hours long? Oh, it only seems like it? My bad. 

[immortalfrieza]

Okay, since when did the writers decide to do a complete 180? Or did they just keep pulling episodes out of their butts and finally end up yanking out a decent one? This is probably the best episode I've seen in... I don't even remember. Though that might just be due to a few awesome moments in particular, Damon smashing Sybil's face into a mirror, Damon beaning Sybil across the head with the mystical iron ball, (I burst out laughing and clapping after that one) Caroline staking Stefan with a nice throw instead of just laying there and doing nothing while the bad guy does whatever they want like the cast typically does in that situation, and Caroline deciding to mentor the now newly vamped Miss Mystic Falls so she doesn't fall off the wagon, start murdering people, and can actually enjoy being a vampire, which is how being a vampire SHOULD go on this show.

So... on to the bad stuff. Why would Damon's humanity torment him? That's nonsensical, it's not like Damon hasn't gone on mass killing sprees before and emerged not giving a crap even WITH his humanity on, and since he was under mind control at the time he can't fault himself for anything he did while he was Sirened. Similarly, why would Caroline give a rat's ass about anything Stefan does under Cade's service, not to mention while his humanity is off? It's not like he actually has a choice and Caroline herself has seen vampires turning their humanity off countless times and even done it herself, she should know that a vampire becomes an entirely different person when their switch is off. She can't use that as an excuse to get pissed at Stefan for anything he's doing now. Oh, and again, it's basically impossible to AVOID going to hell in the TVD universe, I'd be surprised if someone doesn't go to hell for swatting a fly so the threat of it is empty and it's insane that Cade's servants keep lording that over everybody.

Oh, and I almost forgot about Enzo and Bonnie. Come ON you two! Taking the cure is less than an intelligent move so Enzo doesn't end up alone when Bonnie inevitably dies (oh, and they are also robbing DAMON of the chance to take that cure when Elena wakes up like they had originally planned to before she went to sleep if that's still an option for them). How about this instead: They both go to Elena's coffin (does anyone even know where that is anymore?) turn Bonnie, see if it works, then if not they have 60 or 70 years of Bonnie's original lifespan before sticking around becomes selfish, why not use that time to figure out another way to wake Elena up? It's not like there isn't a crapton of witches all over the world any one of which might hold the key to reversing Kai's spell (I also don't recall Kai saying ANYTHING about circumventing his spell's conditions by vamping Bonnie or by having a Siphoner drain the magic) and if in the incredibly unlikely event they REALLY can't, so what? Bonnie can just stake herself to wake Elena up.

Edited January 21, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[gibasi]

Ugh.   Such beautiful people.  But it is not enough.  This was horrible. 

[TigerLynx]

I'm glad Enzo pointed out to Bonnie she was in constant danger being around these people even when she was a witch.  Now that she doesn't have any powers that makes the danger even worse.  I would love for Enzo to take the cure to be with Bonnie.  However, I won't be at all surprised if Bonnie ends up dead again, and Enzo along with her.

Caroline should have called it quits with Stefan a long long time ago.  I hope she does not change her mind.

I get it.  Damon and Stefan have issues.  They have issues with each other.  They have issues with being vampires.  They have issues with their humanity.  They have issues with the women they love.  They have mommy issues, they have daddy issues, they have issues with the sky being blue.  Been down this path a million times, and it never goes anywhere.  If that's not bad enough, now the stupid siren sisters are always there.  AC gets one episode, and these two lousy actresses/characters are here for the entire season?  {face palm}

At this point, why would Caroline, Elena or anyone else bother trying to help Stefan or Damon.  Yes, they are attractive, they can be fun and charming when they want to be, and they have occasionally saved people, but their flip side is so much worse.  What little good they might have done, does not even begin to compare to all the murders they have committed.

Edited January 21, 2017 by TigerLynx

[GraceAnne]

Oh good The Cure...again..... said no one in this forum ever... 

[TigerLynx]

Alexandra Chando.  She was Emma/Sutton in the Lying Game, and she was the doctor in last week's episode.

Any chance the bell can get rid of Cade to?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip:

[GaT]

I can't believe there are still 7 episodes until this piece of crap finally ends.

[HunterHunted]

16 hours ago, GraceAnne said:

Oh good The Cure...again..... said no one in this forum ever... 

I'm mostly fine with the cure now. The show has cleared the board of any vamp that wants to be human. Caroline wants to be with Stefan. She's had kids. She's more or less done a bunch of things that she mourned over when she was turned. The only reason Damon would take the cure is to be with Elena. He's never really mourned the loss of his humanity. He wasn't longing to be a parent like Rebekah and to a lesser extent, Stefan. Damon likes being a vampire. I wish we could have sloughed off this siren and Arkadius nonsense to truly have Damon explore that.

Damon is really interesting because he's worked really hard at not maintaining lasting relationships or monuments to what he's done. Stefan has journals. He had friends like Lexi. He'd gone to university. He'd served in the military. Klaus painted. Elijah has his Strix. Kol had his cursed objects. Damon and Stefan were turned at the same time, but Damon's oldest (non-familial or romantic) relationship is with Enzo who was his cellie. Damon has so little to show for his 100+ years of immortality. The dude spent a hundred years drinking, fucking, killing, and pining for Katherine. When Elena was boxed, he decided to coffin himself because there is no there there. He doesn't do anything. He isn't interested in anything that isn't Elena. Damon was at his best on the show before he was with Elena. Now, his most defining characteristic is that he loves Elena. It's actually a little pathetic.

Edited January 21, 2017 by HunterHunted

[ElectricBoogaloo]

So Bonnie and Enzo went all Billy Bob/Angelina before they left Paris. Realistically, how long is the blood going to stay good in that necklace? Like is the locket airtight? I totally get Enzo not wanting Bonnie to get killed, but at the same time it's her life and her choice. Besides, I don't see anyone telling Matt he's too delicate to be around Caroline et al. Or maybe no one cares if he dies.

There are so many unkillable/immortal characters on this show now that I feel like I'm watching The Originals. Seline was unkillable until a few episodes ago, Sybil is still unkillable, and now both Damon and Stefan are also unkillable, so of course that means they have to go around killing at least one of these characters every freaking episode. This week it was all three of them!

A small part of me, the part that remembers how much I used to love this show in the first few seasons, appreciated going back to Miss Mystic Falls since it's the last season (and because the house and gardens are gorgeous). The other part of me, the part that hated the Heretics, the Gemini Coven, and the Sirens, just rolled my eyes because dipping back in the well of nostalgia is not enough to make this show good again. All they're doing is reminding me how far this show has fallen.

This episode felt like filler. The only thing that really happened is now Caroline has the iron ball and Matt has the bell. The other forty minutes were just Sybil, Stefan, and Damon talking and talking and talking about Elena and Damon's humanity and blah blah blah.

I don't know why Enzo needs to take the cure to be with mortal Bonnie. If he can't bear to go on after she dies, all he has to do is take off his daylight ring and stand in front of a window.

I wish Caroline hadn't pushed the new girl so hard to stay a vampire. If she doesn't want to be a vampire and she's begging you to kill her, why campaign so hard against it? Besides, she doesn't know this girl. She could end up being a totally out of control maniac. And selfishly, it's the middle of the last season so why are we adding ANOTHER new character to the show? Is this just to give Caroline something to do besides mope about Stefan?

Humanity off Stefan this time around has been less evil and more of just a regular old dick, which is not interesting to me.

Interesting that Stefan described the pageant as the day that Damon realized he could take Elena away from him. Has he thought that all along? Or is humanity off Stefan a bitter cynic with a persecution complex? I don't think the pageant was when Damon realized he could take Elena away from Stefan though. He said for ages after that he didn't deserve her, which to me is not the kind of thing you say when you think you can steal someone's girlfriend.

On 1/20/2017 at 6:48 PM, TigerLynx said:

Damon and Stefan have issues.  They have issues with each other.  They have issues with being vampires.  They have issues with their humanity.  They have issues with the women they love.  They have mommy issues, they have daddy issues, they have issues with the sky being blue. 

Ha, so true! If ever there were two vampires who needed some therapy, it's Damon and Stefan.

Edited January 28, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Because "off" and "of" are not the same thing.

[TigerLynx]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I wish Caroline hadn't pushed the new girl so hard to stay a vampire. If she doesn't want to be a vampire and she's begging you to kill her, why campaign so hard against it? Besides, she doesn't know this girl. She could end up being a totally out of control maniac. And selfishly, it's the middle of the last season so why are we adding ANOTHER new character to the show? Is this just to give Caroline something to do besides mope about Stefan?

Maybe Caroline remembered how she felt when Damon wanted to immediately stake her, and Elena/Stefan wouldn't let him.  Caroline might also feel bad that the girl's life was going to be over when she was just a teenager.  I really loved the scene where after Jeremy/Stefan murder Tyler's hybrid friend, Caroline was trying to comfort Tyler by telling him they were trying to help a friend (Elena), and Tyler pointed out that the hybrid was his friend.  Finally, someone points out that just because someone wasn't part of the core group they grew up with in Mystic Falls, it does not mean it's okay to kill them.

[Cattitude]

I actually 1/2 way liked this episode and as bad as this season has been that is a win for me. There were some very good points which most of the season has been missing but there are still big chunks of FAIL. I wish they would have cut about 5 of the previous episodes and put this one after the first few this season.(cut a lot of the siren backstory/story crap)

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't know why Enzo needs to take the cure to be with mortal Bonnie. If he can't bear to go on after she dies, all he has to do is take of his daylight ring and stand in front of a window.

Bonnie and Enzo were a high point for me. I have never minded the cure much. One thing I liked is how Bonnie and Enzo are a mirror of Damon and Elena. Both put the other first over everything else(well except Elena herself who is almighty on high. he) If Enzo takes the cure from Elena he can be human with Bonnie and they can have a family and grow old together. Then when Bonnie dies and Elena wakes up Damon can take the cure from Enzo, Enzo will rapid age and die and the Damon and Elena can live the same human lifespan. The only kink in this is if Enzo died before Bonnie then Damon would have to choose to be human alone for a while until Bonnie died.

I liked most of the Damon stuff. I think him fighting the mind alter is more in line with his long term character we've known. I think it got delayed to give Bonnie and Enzo their time to fight for each other first, but it had done a disservice to Damon's character who all along would have fought to keep his Elena's memories intact. This episode corrected that weirdness for me.

Out of all versions of Stefan this was by far my favorite. It was like a combo of ripper Stefan that was with Klaus and Silas. I could never like Silas b/c since he wasn't a vampire he drank blood from people's wrists which somehow grossed me out. Stefan is dark and hateful and spookie. This is always how I think vampire Stefan should be. I always feel he is fighting it but it is there and pops out at times. This part of Stefan is what I always felt made him lose Elena. When he tried to drive her off the bridge playing chicken with Klaus is when I felt her love for Stefan broke. After that I always felt she felt obligated to choose him but loved Damon more. It wasn't so much that Stefan was more evil than Damon but that Damon had always shown her all sides of himself and that is the Damon she fell in love with vs Stefan who had only shown her (the good) part of himself when she fell in love with him and felt lied to when she saw his other side. (if that makes sense to anyone but me)

Last thing I liked was Mattie blue eyes and [red shirt black character who is doomed] working together trying to get rid of evil. I like that Matt could deal with humans who were sire songed without having to kill them. I liked two humans getting things done without supernatural help.

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

A small part of me, the part that remembers how much I used to love this show in the first few seasons, appreciated going back to Miss Mystic Falls since it's the last season (and because the house and gardens are gorgeous). The other part of me, the part that hated the Heretics, the Gemini Coven, and the Sirens, just rolled my eyes because dipping back in the well of nostalgia is not enough to make this show good again. All they're doing is reminding me how far this show has fallen.

Miss Mystic Falls was part of the bad for me b/c it was like a Damon-swiss-cheese-brain version of the pageant. Why were they all dancing(in the real version only the contestants dance.) and it was so rushed and unfinished. It was like an FU callback IMO.

Also dislike both sirens so much I replace them with Charlie Brown's teacher in my mind. It is very wrong but I LOL when Damon made Sybil cry. This whole story could have been so much better without these stupid sirens. ugh!

Caroline and Stefan as a couple have always been a fail to me and this so highlighted that they just aren't in love with each other enough. Stefan made several comments that leads me to believe he still loves Elena deep down. If Caroline loved Stefan like she should one little bump like this would not have her throw in the towel. If nothing else Stefan helped her so many times she should at least give it a college try. What a Bitch. Especially when they had the new Miss Mystic Falls get turned and look so much like her she  was projecting Stefan himself trying to help her. Last I will admit Caroline being such a Damon cheerleader was so out of character and unnecessary it was off putting.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Cattitude

[Aeryn13]

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Miss Mystic Falls was part of the bad for me b/c it was like a Damon-swiss-cheese-brain version of the pageant. Why were they all dancing(in the real version only the contestants dance.) and it was so rushed and unfinished. It was like an FU callback IMO.

I have to admit, it was a ridiculous scenario. I get it, the leads of the show will dominate what is going on onscreen, hence the first Miss Mystic Falls could rightfully focus on them. The second one with April also focused on them and the pageant was the backdrop to their story but at least the pageant itself seemed to go on as it should be. This time, noone gave a fuck. The contestants were pretty literally shoved aside so the leads could have their dance and their conversations. Seriously?

Now I did like Damon finally cutting the ties with Sybil. His zombified version that has dominated much of the Season so far was truly no fun.

Meanwhile Stefan is obviously on his honeymoon Ripper phase. We`ve seen how it is with vamps who humanity is still technically switched off but lurks close to the surface already. But before that there is the phase where it is pushed down so deep, you think it never comes out. That is where Stefan in all his dickish glory is right now. I guess it was supposed to be dramatic that he renounced his brother but come on, that happened a few times over the course of their lives. It won`t stick.

I think the non-gradual flipping of a switch was also the problem at the end with Damon. Sybil forcing the humanity back in one go. Yes, we heard a lot about the "switch" over the course of the show and Damon usually has had no problems with killing humanity on or off but I still believe the process of turning feelings back on is more a gradual one and if you did it like it happened here, it would shock and overload the system.  

I didn`t think Caroline was focused on helping Damon for Damon. She just saw when the brothers walked in and Stefan stood there grinning like a loon that he was not the more reasonable one at the moment. Not to mention Damon has one part of the weapon they needed. She saw him struggle with her Christmas gift of the necklace, just as she had intented, and rightfully thought: great opportunity. He was her inroad at that moment, not Stefan. So she dug in and tried to pull at least Damon to her side. That is pure practical, tenacious Caroline. Doesn`t mean she is invested in Damon and especially not more than Stefan but she wanted a win against Sybil.

Bonnie and Enzo, I don`t know, I think they are a very cute couple but all they seem to be doing right now is having random scenes being extra-schmoopy. And this cure bullshit? Again? Sigh.

[TigerLynx]

I can't decide if the writers can't be bothered to write anything else for Bonnie/Enzo so they give them a few nice scenes together (At least KG and MM give it their all to sell the scenes), they are trying to build up Bonnie/Enzo as a great couple because when it's all over Damon/Stefan will be dead hence no Damon/Elena or Stefan/Caroline, or if Bonnie and/or Enzo will end up dead so they want to try and make it as tragic as possible.

I've never liked the pairing of Caroline/Stefan.  I liked them as friends.  I didn't like Caroline becoming involved with another ex of Elena's, and I didn't like Caroline getting paired up with just about every guy on the show.

[roctavia]

While I have no faith in the writers being smart enough to do this, I would love if Sybil's trick completely backfires on her and once Damon processes the overload, he is all like "whatevs" because as others have pointed out, in the past he has had no real issues with doing bad things. Even with his humanity on, it hasn't left him feeling some horrible guilt because he killed people. I'm sure he will have some regrets like about Tyler, but when has Damon every really cared about killing someone? That's why he's always been better at being a vampire... sure he tries harder with Elena in the picture, but ultimately, he's not haunted by all of the people he's killed... So i'd like him to wake up from this sudden switch flip and continue to torture Sybil and finally get rid of the dumb sirens because they are the worst.... and that's saying a lot for how many "the worsts" this show has had over the years.

Stefan is just being an a-hole, which is pretty standard switch flipped Stefan... I'm fine with Caroline ditching him until he gets sick of his 'fun'.

[immortalfrieza]

6 hours ago, roctavia said:

While I have no faith in the writers being smart enough to do this, I would love if Sybil's trick completely backfires on her and once Damon processes the overload, he is all like "whatevs" because as others have pointed out, in the past he has had no real issues with doing bad things. Even with his humanity on, it hasn't left him feeling some horrible guilt because he killed people. I'm sure he will have some regrets like about Tyler, but when has Damon every really cared about killing someone? That's why he's always been better at being a vampire... sure he tries harder with Elena in the picture, but ultimately, he's not haunted by all of the people he's killed... So i'd like him to wake up from this sudden switch flip and continue to torture Sybil and finally get rid of the dumb sirens because they are the worst.... and that's saying a lot for how many "the worsts" this show has had over the years.

That would be awesome but I doubt it, they'll have Damon angst over what he did for the next few episodes despite the fact that since he was under MIND CONTROL he's not to blame for anything he did the entire season up until now whatsoever. Anything Damon does is on him as of this episode now that he's broken Sybil's control, but there's no reason for him to feel guilty over what he's done even if like Stefan he was the type to give a damn about the people he's hurt and lives he's taken while his switch was off.

As an aside, since he was under mind control I'm not going to attribute anything he has said or done before this episode to him or believe anything he has said. Damon claimed that he just turned his humanity off straight away and didn't fight unlike Enzo for instance, but it's just as likely he DID fight, but his mind's defenses were broken through almost instantly, Sybil had him turn his humanity off, then go around telling Enzo and everybody that he willingly did so, blamed a vision of hell for it, recommending everybody turn it off too, and then made him believe that all of that was genuinely his idea. Sybil is more than enough of a manipulative _itch to make that believable. This is the episode where I'll start judging him for his words and actions again (taken by this episode on it's own and further so far, my judgement is Damon is awesome).

Edited January 22, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[gazebo]

I'm rooting for Bonnie and Enzo for a happy ending.  I no longer care about the Salvatore brothers.  I feel like Stefan didn't care enough for Damon to try to pull him out of Cade's control.  I don't know why Stefan can't just use the heavy metal ball and just smash it into the siren's head give Damon some time to escape. Stefan is  like enjoying his ripperNess too  much.  I'm  like watching to the bitter end hoping to find some satisfaction but yet feel I'm  just gonna get painfully disappointed in the end.Maybe Elena will come back and kill off Damon and Stefan.  It would be the most kindness for the vampire brothers.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that Caroline appealing to Damon was a mixture of practicality (she needs that stupid iron ball) and wanting to pull one over on Sybil. I also think there were two other factors - she knows Stefan is off the rails and there's nothing she can do to stop him or help him, but Damon is his partner in crime due to their deal with Cade. Trying to get Damon back in touch with his humanity means that he will try to rein Stefan in or at least cover Stefan's messy bloody tracks so that Stefan doesn't arouse suspicion and get caught. If Damon completely abandons his role as good cop (or at the very least not the worst cop), she knows Stefan's killing spree will just get worse and there's a chance she won't get him back (as was underlined by when Stefan later told Caroline that working for Cade was fun).

The other thing is that Elena is her best friend and she knows that when Elena wakes up, it will be as if no time has passed for Elena. She's going to wake up and expect her schmoopie lovebug Damon to be there. She is going to be very upset if she wakes up and finds out that Damon (and Stefan) are off running around killing people just for the fun of it with their humanity off. I'm sure that Caroline doesn't want Elena to have to deal with that when she finally comes back and that was another reason why she was trying to get Damon to tap into his love for Elena.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I agree that Caroline appealing to Damon was a mixture of practicality (she needs that stupid iron ball) and wanting to pull one over on Sybil.

What really cracked me up was when Sybil took Stefan to the dance and they were like "burn" since it was supposed to evoke Elena-would-have-chosen-Stefan and Damon was basically so swiss-cheese-brained at that moment, he was like "dudes, I can barely comprehend your names right now so this just went so far over my head". 

Granted, it would have been an effective way to insult and hurt Damon in the past but not in that moment. And then Caroline swooped in all outraged and dragged him off to dance and he was still basically too dazed to truly get anything. I just giggled at that entire scene.

Also, I`m not sure what point Stefan was trying to make. Of course Elena would have danced with him had he been there. Damon and Elena even furiously whispered to each other where the hell Stefan was when they went to dance. And it was back during a time when Elena was 1000 % in love with Stefan. She considered Damon a friend, somewhat, but it was no competition for her love back then. Now he phrased it as Damon realizing he could "take her" from Stefan then but I never liked this kind of thinking. Elena isn`t a possession someone could take or someone else could keep. Yet Stefan phrased at in these terms quite a bit since then and it doesn`t make it sound any better. 

[miss-vanilla]

I'm late this week but never mind. 

What a difference an episode can make. Possibly my favorite since 8x01 and what made the difference? some Damon pov and insight or clairfication as to exactly how Sybil meddled with his mind and confirmation that yes he is was still being controlled by her despite thinking he was free...just like Enzo thought too. I think I had started to piece together most of it anyway from the small, subtle clues left along the way (apple sauce penguin) but still it was nice to get it all laid out there. What was even more enjoyable is that finally someone else actually took 5 seconds to look beyond the obvious and deduce that Damon is not just without his humanity but he is without agency and real memories.

I liked that the necklace played a part in it all two-fold A) The magical aspect of it that seemed to block Sybils powers when Damon was holding it and B) The memories attached to it were powerful enough to shake Damon to his core. well played show.

So Stefan is totally off the rails and heading for super-villain of the year now. He doesn't want to stop, not for Caroline, Damon or even himself and with all this talk of the "cure" raising it's head again, I think we can be sure that  Enzo will not be cured but rather Stefan. Stefan will need to be saved from himself and his future self. It was intimated last week that that Stefan will probably repeat this behaviour throughout eternity so the safest and kindest thing they can do for Stefan (and the general human population) is to  reverse the condition that makes him like this. It's just a shame he will never be cured of being an arrogant, self righteous prick but hey.

Of course Bonnie will end up in a life threatening situation proffering the exact circumstances that she will have to take Enzo's blood or die for realzies which will of course be the loophole that will awaken Elena much to the surprise of the characters, yet zero surprise to the fandom. All that schmoopy love talk was not just filling in time.

On 1/22/2017 at 2:00 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Also, I`m not sure what point Stefan was trying to make. Of course Elena would have danced with him had he been there. Damon and Elena even furiously whispered to each other where the hell Stefan was when they went to dance. And it was back during a time when Elena was 1000 % in love with Stefan. She considered Damon a friend, somewhat, but it was no competition for her love back then. Now he phrased it as Damon realizing he could "take her" from Stefan then

Stefan was just trying to mess with Damon and interfere with the positive vibes he was getting from being at the MMF pageant (by rewriting events). Ironic really since Stefan has always been able to change canon and alter the truth to suit him  and this time the writers totally used that trait of his to their advantage. Stefan has always been the master manipulator, bender of the truth and king of denial as long as this series has run, it was nice to see the writers showcase that explicitly. Does Stefan love Elena? I don't think so, but I think he will always hold a deep resentment in his heart towards Damon for taking her from him. It isn't that Stefan lost Elena, it's that he lost her to Damon, and throughout this show it's been made clear to me that Stefan has always considered himself better than Damon so that really, really stung. The value isn't actually in Elena herself, it is what it means with regards to how he measures up to his brother and used Elena's love as a yardstick for that. So yes, Stefan always viewed Elena as a symbol, a thing or a prize.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 11:30 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree that Caroline appealing to Damon was a mixture of practicality (she needs that stupid iron ball) and wanting to pull one over on Sybil. I also think there were two other factors - she knows Stefan is off the rails and there's nothing she can do to stop him or help him, but Damon is his partner in crime due to their deal with Cade. Trying to get Damon back in touch with his humanity means that he will try to rein Stefan in or at least cover Stefan's messy bloody tracks so that Stefan doesn't arouse suspicion and get caught.

I think this was at least 90% of her motivation, but I do like to believe that a part of her would like to help Damon get back to himself if not for Damon himself but for her best friend.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 4:59 AM, immortalfrieza said:

Even with his humanity on, it hasn't left him feeling some horrible guilt because he killed people.

I disagree, I think Damon does feel guilt. Damon covers his guilt, hurt, pain with snark and humour that is part of his character and that was showcased well in S2 and onwards  many times. What Damon does not do is brood or dwell (in public anyway) which gives off the the impression that he does not care. This is exactly what Damon wants people to think except those very close to him who know the real him.

Like others have already pointed out, this time he has a pretty good excuse for not beating himself up too much about all he has done but for some reason we will see him struggling with it all outwardly. Perhaps because Sybil has done something more to his brain than just forcing his humanity back on.

On 1/22/2017 at 4:59 AM, immortalfrieza said:

This is the episode where I'll start judging him for his words and actions again (taken by this episode on it's own and further so far, my judgement is Damon is awesome).

Me too. I just want Damon back with his agency. I'm so sick of all this mind control stuff and Sybil is one annoying, petty little bitch. Is she meant to having real feelings for Damon or is she just pissed that he is resisting her powers? I can't tell but she sure doesn't seem to be bothered about Enzo anymore and he was right there dancing to that incredibly beautiful but LONG song.

So exposition fairy 1 (Thanks Cindy) Bonnie, and Contrivance fairy 2 (thanks again Cindy) Enzo had some long but lovely scenes dressed up with speeches of love but we know the real purpose of them was to talk about the cure, the spell and to foreshadow Bonnie turning vampire. It was obvious since neither of them interacted with Damon at the dance. Both are meant to be his friend but nada, I was disappointed in both of them.

 

The Bell story is gaining some momentum but I can't bring myself to get excited yet but I did like that line from Seline when she graded Dorian's intelligence on a scale ranging from somewhere between  Matt Donovan and  Alaric. Hilarious,  honestly Damon would have appreciated that line.

[immortalfrieza]

4 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

I disagree, I think Damon does feel guilt. Damon covers his guilt, hurt, pain with snark and humour that is part of his character and that was showcased well in S2 and onwards  many times. What Damon does not do is brood or dwell (in public anyway) which gives off the the impression that he does not care. This is exactly what Damon wants people to think except those very close to him who know the real him.

I disagree with that. Sure, Damon covers his guilt, hurt, and pain over doing horrible things with snark and humor sometimes, but in general Damon doesn't give a crap if he kills and/or torments people, and whenever he does he only starts feeling guilty when people like Elena or Stefan start guilt tripping him over it, and really his guilt, hurt, and pain is over disappointing them rather than over the horrible things he did. A good example if I recall correctly would be Aaron (I think that's his name) who Damon went and killed during the period he was having "the best summer of his life" after he and Elena really got together. He not only did that with his humanity on full, but didn't feel an ounce of guilt over it until Elena found out about it and called him out, and that was simply guilt over the grief he was giving ELENA over doing this, not the killing itself. In fact, Damon has been caught in a loop throughout the show that goes something like this: Damon does something horrible-> Damon doesn't give a crap or even bother to tell anyone else most of the time-> other characters find out about it-> said characters typically Elena or Stefan guilt trip Damon over what he did and demand he make amends-> Damon feels guilty and tries to make amends to appease those people-> Damon finally succeeds in getting back in the character's good graces-> Damon does something horrible...

The only difference between humanity on and humanity off Damon is how long it takes for the attempts by the other characters to guilt trip him to work really.

Edited January 24, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[miss-vanilla]

2 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

I disagree with that. Sure, Damon covers his guilt, hurt, and pain over doing horrible things with snark and humor sometimes, but in general Damon doesn't give a crap if he kills and/or torments people, and whenever he does he only starts feeling guilty when people like Elena or Stefan start guilt tripping him over it, and really his guilt, hurt, and pain is over disappointing them rather than over the horrible things he did.

Sure, there have been times when Damon has seemed flippant about killing people especially in the early days when Damon seemed to be operating on a humanity dimmer switch. Damon killed Rose- obvious guilt and heartbreak which led to him killing jessica on the roadside which was a massive conflict and something Damon refers to as an existential crisis which in turn implies a conflict between who is as a vampire and who he was as a human. The fact he was conflicted indicates he cared but he killed Jess to prove to himself that he was not human, no matter how much he wanted to be. The next time we see him he is clearly distracted and moved by the TV news reporter reporting the death of Jessica. It was all part of his denial that he was starting to care and neither Jess or Rose were about Elena, it was about who Damon Salvatore was after being a humanity-less vamp for more than 50 years. There was no guilt tripping from Elena because she was pretty much in the dark about these things, the guilt came from within Damon himself.

Generally I do agree with the fact that Damon does not care about collateral damage. He is pretty open about that fact, but the reality is neither does anyone else when it comes down to it, it's just that Damon does not even care to pretend that he cares.

[TigerLynx]

Quote

Damon doesn't feel guilty or pain or remorse for anything outside a very small circle of people - and even that hinges more on having a comfortable relationship with this people so that he can continue to do whatever he wants - not because he really cares about them. 

Doesn't this describe all of the characters at some point?  That's just one of the problems with the SLs.  It depends entirely on the plot of the moment if anyone is going to get upset or feel guilt about someone being killed.  I'm still not sure why Damon was considered so horrible by the MF gang for killing Tyler, when back in Season Two they helped Damon kidnap, torture and kill Mason.  Sybil taunts Caroline about what Stefan is doing in service to Cade, and Caroline's defense is Stefan and Damon are only going to kill bad people.  At least, Caroline finally broke things off with Stefan, but will it stick?

I forgot to mention.  I think I had it backwards.  Stefan isn't angry Elena chose Damon, he's angry Damon chose Katherine and Elena over him.  For whatever reason, Stefan always chooses Damon, even when he would be better off not doing so, but Damon chooses Elena and Katherine.

Edited January 24, 2017 by TigerLynx

[TigerLynx]

Quote

No. Stefan chooses Damon over himself

Stefan did not choose Damon over himself when he forced Damon to turn in 1864.  Stefan did that for Stefan.

If Caroline, Bonnie and Matt have any functioning brain cells left, they won't be going along with anymore Salvatore plans.  When Elena wakes up, hopefully, both Damon and Stefan will be dead dead, and Elena can have the human life she wants.  If the entire Bonnie/Enzo discussion is shading that Bonnie is going to end up a vampire, something she does not want, then I have no words for the lousy treatment Bonnie has received for most of the time on this show or for what a horrible ending that would be for her story.  Getting to be with Enzo forever, no matter how much Bonnie loves him, is no substitute for Bonnie getting to make her own choices.

[formerlyfreedom]

Episode discussion, please.

[ByTor]

On 1/20/2017 at 9:48 PM, TigerLynx said:

I get it.  Damon and Stefan have issues.  They have issues with each other.  They have issues with being vampires.  They have issues with their humanity.  They have issues with the women they love.  They have mommy issues, they have daddy issues, they have issues with the sky being blue.  Been down this path a million times, and it never goes anywhere. 

This just made me giggle :)

On 1/21/2017 at 1:36 AM, doram said:

I know it is not very popular these days but I wonder how bad it would have been if they had just bitten the bullet and re-casted Elena after Nina left. 

They should have, IMO.  The unwillingness to recast roles is probably my biggest TV pet peeve.

[Jordan27]

I just watched this episode.  That tells how you interested in this show I am this last season. 

And this ep just felt boring and repetitive.  I've seen all this before.

Plus,  Damon and Stefan now just need to die.  They have done so much evil that can just not be overlooked anymore.

I'll finish it out to see the end, but the show has lost the magic it had in the beginning.