Star Trek - General Discussion

[starri]

For my money, the best of the fan series was Star Trek: New Voyages and its successor Phase II. They had a number TOS people, including George Takei, Walter Koenig, and Grace Lee Whitney appear in front of the camera and filmed episodes written by DC Fontana and David Gerrold (an adaptation of his aborted TNG script "Blood and Fire" which would have featured Trek's first openly queer characters) and a third episode even got nominated against Battlestar Galactica, Torchwood, and Doctor Who for a Hugo Award.

The production values were astonishingly high.  Enterprise even ended up borrowing some of their props for the Defiant in "In A Mirror, Darkly" and turned around and gifted them some of their props, including the pencil sketches of the previous Enterprises that were in Archer's ready room.

Sadly, this all got squashed by CBS after a bunch of idiots decided to make a fan film that they could profit off of.

[marinw]

Can we stream Phase II anywhere?

[starri]

All of the the released episodes are here.  They had another three in various stages of production before CBS clamped down, and pieces of one of them were put on YouTube, but I'm unsure if you can still find them.

"World Enough and Time" is the one that was Hugo nominated.  I also do recommend "Blood and Fire."  The episode ends on a downbeat note, but it makes the story more personal than its original TNG incarnation, as it makes one half of the gay couple Kirk's nephew Peter.

[marinw]

Thank you @starri

[QuantumMechanic]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:07 AM, starri said:

For my money, the best of the fan series was Star Trek: New Voyages and its successor Phase II. 

[snip]

The production values were astonishingly high.  Enterprise even ended up borrowing some of their props for the Defiant in "In A Mirror, Darkly" and turned around and gifted them some of their props, including the pencil sketches of the previous Enterprises that were in Archer's ready room.

Sadly, this all got squashed by CBS after a bunch of idiots decided to make a fan film that they could profit off of.

While the fan production is sadly dead, thanks to an asshole grifter elsewhere with the initials A.P., New Voyages turned their sets, with the blessing of CBS/Paramount, into a tour you can visit in Ticonderoga, NY.

On 7/2/2023 at 2:18 AM, SVNBob said:

I was aware of Vic being problematic (at best). 

That's putting it lightly!

Quote

So for me, ST Continues is a definite case of separating the art from the artist. 

Yep. 

[marinw]

Watching Space Seed for the first time in many years. Ricardo Montalban was HOT. Love how McCoy wasn’t phased when Khan held a knife to his throat. 
 

Kirk was stupid to give Khan access to the Enterprise library. And of COURSE Kirk beats Khan in combat🙄

Edited July 31, 2023 by marinw

[rmontro]

47 minutes ago, marinw said:

Kirk was stupid to give Khan access to the Enterprise library. And of COURSE Kirk beats Khan in combat🙄

Khan doesn't know Kirk Fu.

[marinw]

One more thought about Space Seed: Khan’s treatment of History Officer is absolutely cringeworthy, even when I correct for the era in which the episode was made. I assume that poor women became his wife and had her brain eaten by the slug things.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

One more thought about Space Seed: Khan’s treatment of History Officer is absolutely cringeworthy, even when I correct for the era in which the episode was made. 

It does appear very dated, I agree.  But Khan was a powerful ruler in his day and no doubt was used to women being subservient to him.  You might be mad at Marla's response to him, but it could have been a feint in order to stay close and study him.  Or maybe she has a bit of masochist in her.

[Cobb Salad]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:44 PM, marinw said:

I assume that poor women became his wife and had her brain eaten by the slug things.

In Wrath of Khan while still on Ceti Alpha V, Khan made a remark about the fate of his “beloved wife” before he has one of his crew insert Ceti eels into both Chekhov’s and Terrell’s ears.  At the time the movie was made they did consider including her in the story but if I remember correctly they did not because the actress who played her in Space Seed was suffering from MS and not in good health.  I think what they did with the character made for a better story as it made Khan’s motivation to exact revenge on Kirk stronger.  

[tv-talk]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 PM, marinw said:

Watching Space Seed for the first time in many years. Ricardo Montalban was HOT.

As a heterosexual male I whole heartedly agree with your assessment. I hadnt seen it in a long time and on rewatch Montalban was just awesome, total stud, probably the best episode of Trek ever.

 

On 8/3/2023 at 4:44 PM, marinw said:

One more thought about Space Seed: Khan’s treatment of History Officer is absolutely cringeworthy, even when I correct for the era in which the episode was made.

The scene where he says to her something like "Stay or go woman, whatever, just make up your mind" was really something lol. However as chauvinist as it seemed, I'd think that Khan talked to almost all non-engineered humans with that same level of condescension. For me the cringey part isnt so much how he talked to her but rather that that appealed to her! 

[rmontro]

23 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The scene where he says to her something like "Stay or go woman, whatever, just make up your mind" was really something lol. 

You left out the key part:  "But do it because it is what you want to do".  What he was saying wasn't so bad, he just phrased it kind of roughly.  But he's a masculine guy, what do you expect?

[tv-talk]

15 minutes ago, rmontro said:

You left out the key part:  "But do it because it is what you want to do".  What he was saying wasn't so bad, he just phrased it kind of roughly.  But he's a masculine guy, what do you expect?

Ah yes! Dare we say he was a feminist! He believed in her having total self-determination apparently ;-)

[marinw]

13 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I hadnt seen it in a long time and on rewatch Montalban was just awesome, total stud, probably the best episode of Trek ever.

And one of the greatest (If not THE greatest) ST villains of all time. The perfect blend of megalomaniac and charismatic. A worthy opponent to Kirk and crew. Why JJ Abrams turned this magnificent monster into Benedict Cumberbatch is a mystery to me.

Edited August 29, 2023 by marinw

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

A worthy opponent to Kirk and crew. Why JJ Abrams turned this magnificent monster into Benedict Cumberbatch is a mystery to me.

Cumberbatch was having a moment and I do like him in various other shows...but geez making Khan the pastiest Brit you could possibly find? I mean the point of the character was that he arose from Asian roots and conquered that part of the world, you know like....Ghengis Khan! Cant recall exactly but I thought there was some idea that part of his genetics were actually from that line, though I am fuzzy on how they described the eugenics of it.

[Lugal]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

Why JJ Abrams turned this magnificent monster into Benedict Cumberbatch is a mystery to me.

Because Abrams is a hack?  They wanted to rehash The Wrath of Khan but no remake could ever be as good as the original.

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Cumberbatch was having a moment and I do like him in various other shows...but geez making Khan the pastiest Brit you could possibly find?

Cumberbatch is good, just not for Khan.  There are lots of charismatic Bollywood actors and I would have loved to see what they could have done as Khan.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

Cumberbatch is good, just not for Khan.  There are lots of charismatic Bollywood actors and I would have loved to see what they could have done as Khan.

Fully agree.  It's a shame too, because Into Darkness could have been so much better.

Montalban was from Mexico, but since you said Bollywood, I stated thinking about Indian actors (or actors with Indian ancestry) that were famous in the US, and how they would play Kahn.  The only ones I could think of off the top of my head were Dev Patel, Kal Penn, and Kunal Nayyar (who played Raj on The Big Bang Theory).  I'm sure Patel would have done a good job, and maybe even Penn, for a more quirky take.  But for some reason I'd really like to see what Raj playing Kahn would be like  😄

[Lugal]

Never got into Big Bang Theory so I'm not that familiar with Kunal Nayyer, but I agree Patel would have been good.  Not sure how Penn would have done it, if he played it quirky, but I wonder if he would have played it straight.  Another actor who would have been good would have been Naveen Andrews.

Out of Bollywood actors, Shah Rukh Khan would have rocked it, and Hrithik Roshan, he usually plays heroes, so it would have been interesting to see him play a villain.

Ricardo Montalban made Khan what he was, but it was one of those weird examples of Star Trek casting (a Mexican playing an Indian character), like where British Patrick Stewart plays French Jean-Luc Picard.

[marinw]

16 minutes ago, Lugal said:

like where British Patrick Stewart plays French Jean-Luc Picard.

Or Canadians playing Americans (Kirk), which is something that happens a lot even now. We also had a Canadian playing Scotty, as James Dohan was good with accents. 

[tv-talk]

25 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Ricardo Montalban made Khan what he was, but it was one of those weird examples of Star Trek casting (a Mexican playing an Indian character), like where British Patrick Stewart plays French Jean-Luc Picard.

Personally I dont mind that, dont think that every actor has to match the exact background of the character. I mean Will Shatner is Jewish and I dont recall anything about Kirk being Jewish in TOS right? I'd just like to have seen a darker skinned person play Khan as the character is supposed to be of Sikh lineage. And I have to say, for a show in 1967 to acknowledge Sikhs as a group that would produce a dominant superhuman was ahead of it's time and pretty cool.

Edited August 29, 2023 by tv-talk

[rmontro]

55 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Personally I dont mind that, dont think that every actor has to match the exact background of the character. 

Agreed, people are too touchy about things like that.  Like Ian McKellen said, it's all pretend.  What's the point of being an actor if you can't stretch a little bit?  Why even have actors if you can only be yourself?

[marinw]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Personally I dont mind that, dont think that every actor has to match the exact background of the character. I mean Will Shatner is Jewish and I dont recall anything about Kirk being Jewish in TOS right?

As a Canadian and a very secular, agnostic Jew, I agree. Leonard Nimoy was also Jewish, and did bring a bit of his heritage into Spock with the Vulcan Salute. And both Shatner and Nimoy got to cosplay as Nazis! 

Canadians play Americans all the time. What would 24 had been without the Canadian Kiefer Sutherland as the iconic American Jack Bauer?

 

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

And I have to say, for a show in 1967 to acknowledge Sikhs as a group that would produce a dominant superhuman was ahead of it's time and pretty cool.

Excellent point!

Casting directors must enjoy the freedom of casting actors to play the various aliens if a character has green skin or requires a lot of makeup/prosthetics.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by marinw

[rmontro]

57 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I'd just like to have seen a darker skinned person play Khan as the character is supposed to be of Sikh lineage.

That would have been good in Into Darkness, but I can't imagine anyone playing a better Kahn than Ricardo Montalban.  Maybe there was some Mexican DNA spliced into his genetics.

 

3 minutes ago, marinw said:

As a Canadian and a very secular, agnostic Jew, I agree. Leonard Nimoy was also Jewish, and did bring a bit of his heritage into Spock with the Vulcan Salute. And both Shatner and Nimoy got to cosplay as Nazis! 

This is off topic, but did you know all the Nazis in Hogan's Heroes were played by Jewish actors?  I thought that was an interesting bit of trivia.

[Browncoat]

I love Dev Patel, but I think he would have been terrible as Khan.

[Lugal]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Personally I dont mind that, dont think that every actor has to match the exact background of the character. I mean Will Shatner is Jewish and I dont recall anything about Kirk being Jewish in TOS right? I'd just like to have seen a darker skinned person play Khan as the character is supposed to be of Sikh lineage. And I have to say, for a show in 1967 to acknowledge Sikhs as a group that would produce a dominant superhuman was ahead of it's time and pretty cool.

It doesn't bother me either that actors don't match their character, that's the fun of acting.  For me it's more when they don't get it quite right.  For Khan, it was very cool they acknowledged the Sikhs, but Khan is also a very Muslim name.  And like Sulu, a Japanese character with a Filipino-sounding last name.

But it was just kind of weird to hear Frenchman Jean-Luc Picard speaking in Received Pronunciation.  Apparently Patrick Stewart tried a French accent but the producers didn't go with it.  For some reason...

 

[marinw]

Many French people speak English with a British accept because they learned English from the British.

[tv-talk]

15 hours ago, Lugal said:

For Khan, it was very cool they acknowledged the Sikhs, but Khan is also a very Muslim name. 

Very true, I suspect they were going for Khan as in Ghenghis Khan though, or at least that's what I always assumed. However yes they still could have made him from a Muslim family especially given it was just a passing reference.

 

15 hours ago, Lugal said:

But it was just kind of weird to hear Frenchman Jean-Luc Picard speaking in Received Pronunciation. 

Somewhere they said no one spoke French in the future! That the language had just died out. Sacrebleu!

[rmontro]

Just pointing out here, that if you watched Star Trek:  Picard, there's a little easter egg about the origins of Kahn at the end of the second season.

[tv-talk]

Care to fill me in? I dont think I'm going to watch PicardS2 though I loved season3.

As far as cannon...didnt the TOS episode say something along the lines that he was engineered from the genes of histories great rulers? That is why I'd assumed the Khan as THE Khan but maybe I just made that up in my head as a kid.

[rmontro]

15 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Care to fill me in? I dont think I'm going to watch PicardS2 though I loved season3.

Spoiler

They spend a lot of season two in the present day.  One of the protagonists is Adam Soong, an ancestor of the other Soongs played by Brett Spiner.  He is an acclaimed geneticist.  After his schemes fail, he is seen reaching into a drawer and taking out a manila folder labeled "The Kahn Project".  So apparently he was behind the genetic experiments that created Kahn.  I thought it was a nice touch, and it made sense also.

 

[tv-talk]

Ah ok, that does make sense given the name Khan Noonien-Singh. Also to the point above, Singh is the correct name for Khan being Sikh, so I retract the part about making him Muslim. Easy to forget Khan is his first name!

[Lugal]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Just pointing out here, that if you watched Star Trek:  Picard, there's a little easter egg about the origins of Kahn at the end of the second season.

Years ago, there was a couple of Star Trek books that went into Khan's origins as well.  I keep meaning to track them down, but as I understand it, they tie Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln (Assignment: Earth) into the whole story as well.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

Years ago, there was a couple of Star Trek books that went into Khan's origins as well.  I keep meaning to track them down, but as I understand it, they tie Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln (Assignment: Earth) into the whole story as well.

I haven't read the Star Trek novels, but curiously they do reference the supervisor program that Gary Seven was involved with in season two of Star Trek:  Picard also.

[marinw]

I just mentioned those novels a few hours ago on the SNW forum.

[marinw]

Last night I watched "The Omega Glory," which left me even more confused about World War III in the TrekVerse. Spock says something like  "(This Planet) had the conflict Earth avoided" Yet isn't a nuclear world war a central tenant of the TrekVerse? Or was Spock referring to a biological war and not a nuclear war?

Edited September 5, 2023 by marinw

[dewelar]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Last night I watched "The Omega Glory," which left me even more confused about World War III in the TrekVerse. Spock says something like  "(This Planet) had the conflict Earth avoided" Yet isn't a nuclear world war a central tenant of the TrekVerse? Or was Spock referring to a biological war and not a nuclear war?

I always assumed that he was referring to the West vs. Communism (as that episode was meant to mirror), and that WW III was some alternate configuration.

[rmontro]

Saw Charlie X the other night on MeTV, this is one of my favorite episodes.  It isn't often a protagonist can be so completely terrifying on one level, but then garner as much sympathy when he meets his fate.  The poor kid just didn't have the maturity and experiences to deal with his abilities (and hormones).  One in a long line of Star Trek's fascination with omnipotent characters.

When I came aboard!

[marinw]

11 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The poor kid just didn't have the maturity and experiences to deal with his abilities

Charlie X is Q as a teenager.

[Maverick]

 There are recruiting signs for the Air Force and Space Force I've seen popping up.   It includes the logos for each, and about the Space Force...familiar much?

 

[Lugal]

Star Trek fans have been pointing this out since the logo was revealed.

 

[MagnusHex]

1x24: Space Seed

Okay. 🙄 Weirdly speaking to the audience his name in a way that Kirk wouldn't have comprehended the context of, but okay.

The Khan introduction on "Space Seed", on the other hand, definitely felt more natural. The episode has other problems, of course, mainly in the treatment of Marla McGivers becoming one of those dated Gone with the Wind "I like it when men ravish me" cliches. Normally, I wouldn't bring it up if it's just a scene or even two (since dated gender roles are practically bread and butter of this show by now), but it's the whole backbone of her character throughout the entire episode.

As for Khan himself, he's brilliant, but only by proxy due to Kirk's own stupidity. Letting a stranger aboard, particularly one you suspect to be from a penal colony, have access to the technical specs of your ship... Yeah, Kirk's lost a lot of brain cells this episode.

The ending is nice enough, with Kirk giving Khan an entire planet to conquer as he recognizes the bestial nature of a man like Khan (along with his need to conquer and dominate). It's like releasing a wild lion into the savanna, so it's appropriate enough as punishments go. Guess I'd have to wait a long while before I'll find out how Khan and his people will prosper, because the feature films won't be viewed by me till after I finish all three seasons of TOS.

On a note that's off topic to the episode itself, sort of, I've heard of Wrath of Khan's reputation as a magnificent sequel, perhaps even before I've heard and seen Empire Strikes Back. As someone who has greatly loved the idea of the "better, darker sequel" that ESB is often hailed as a shining example of, I'd love to see how WoK holds up in comparison.

6/10 for the episode due to the uncomfortably dated nature of Marla McGivers' character, plus Kirk's foul-up. Montalbán's charisma is the only thing keeping this episode afloat, plus the nice fight at the end that feels believable that Kirk was outmatched in strength.

Edited October 1, 2023 by MagnusHex

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

1x24Marla McGivers: Space Seed

The episode has other problems, of course, mainly in the treatment of Marla McGivers becoming one of those dated Gone with the Wind "I like it when men ravish me" cliches.

Okay, you're right, that's what's going on.  But you could pretend that since it was her mission to study him, she was play acting a bit to stay in his good graces.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:33 AM, MagnusHex said:

6/10 for the episode due to the uncomfortably dated nature of Marla McGivers' character, plus Kirk's foul-up. Montalbán's charisma is the only thing keeping this episode afloat, plus the nice fight at the end that feels believable that Kirk was outmatched in strength.

Don't forget McCoy's coolly teling Khan (when he's holding the knife to his throat), "It would be most effective if you would cut the carotid artery, just under the left ear." I like to think of that being the moment when McCoy earned his opening sequence credits that he was granted in the second season.

[MagnusHex]

19 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Don't forget McCoy's coolly teling Khan (when he's holding the knife to his throat), "It would be most effective if you would cut the carotid artery, just under the left ear." I like to think of that being the moment when McCoy earned his opening sequence credits that he was granted in the second season.

True. That was an awesome moment. I guess I kinda took that for granted as he had earned my respect many episodes ago as a fleshed out equal to Kirk and Spock, the important heart to Spock's brains.

[tv-talk]

For me, Space Seed is a top3 Trek episode all-time, mainly due to Montalban, but also because of how they didnt exactly view Khan as a Pol Pot or Hitler. Well not in the least really, clearly Scotty had respect for him and it was only Spock who viewed him as monstrous. Like they were speaking to human tendency towards dictatorial rule, or you could interpret as Khan actually being a good leader, idk.

As far as Wrath...absolutely loved it and it's generally considered a top Trek movie...however watched it recently and felt its age is really showing, 1982 was a long time ago. 

[Halting Hex]

MeTV has apparently pulled the series from its schedule.   A pity, I was looking forward to building a nice little DVR collection.

(Yes, very dated, I know.  But I've nearly reached the point where never having paid a single quatloo for streaming is a point of pride, and I like being able to see the eps on the big screen without digging out the DVDs.  Ah, well.)

[MagnusHex]

1x23: A Taste of Armageddon

Accidentally watched Space Seed before this one. Ah well.

A pretty creepy concept, people marching to their death under orders. A few holes in the logic of determining people's lives on the whim of a computer for 500 years, but I wasn't too bothered by it as I liked the overall concept and the attempt at exploring a potential solution for war (a terrible, poorly thought out solution albeit).

Idiotic diplomats aren't anything new on this show, but it sure made me realized why people compared Star Trek to Mass Effect. This kind of high concept philosophical dilemma that Kirk finds himself in upon landing on an unknown planet feels right up the alley of that game. Clearly, Kirk is a Renegade, or a Renegon at the very least, willing to bludgeon his way through diplomacy.

Spock's mind-control powers are cool, but it feels like the kind of deus ex machina the show wouldn't get to use often.

3.5/5

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

MeTV has apparently pulled the series from its schedule.   A pity, I was looking forward to building a nice little DVR collection.

Are you sure?  I know for the month of October, because of Halloween, they're running an extra Svengoolie and some Sventoonie episodes.  I had assumed that Star Trek will be back after Halloween, but I could be wrong.  Anyway, unless you know something I don't, I wouldn't give up hope yet.

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

This kind of high concept philosophical dilemma that Kirk finds himself in upon landing on an unknown planet feels right up the alley of that game. Clearly, Kirk is a Renegade, or a Renegon at the very least, willing to bludgeon his way through diplomacy.

These kind of episodes always makes me think "So much for the Prime Directive".

[Halting Hex]

22 hours ago, rmontro said:

Are you sure?  I know for the month of October, because of Halloween, they're running an extra Svengoolie and some Sventoonie episodes.  I had assumed that Star Trek will be back after Halloween, but I could be wrong.  Anyway, unless you know something I don't, I wouldn't give up hope yet.

Oh, okay, good.  I saw it was gone last night and the next two weeks, but I hadn't thought of a month-long promotion.  Thanks.

[marinw]

There’s a line in “Let that be your last Battlefield” that has always bugged me:

Kirk: “That (planet) is in the most southern part of the galaxy. In an uncharted area”

1. If the planet is in an uncharted area, how do they know where it is?

2. How does direction like North and South even apply here?

As for the episode itself, it is rather heavy-handed but sadly relevant today given recent events.

Edited October 16, 2023 by marinw