Sweet/Vicious - General Discussion

[slf]

On 1/8/2017 at 8:42 PM, Black Knight said:

And I think Kennedy probably feels right now that regardless of who she concludes is lying, she's still lost both of them. The man she loves is either a cheater or a rapist. Her best friend may or may not be lying about this particular thing, but she's a liar in general and so how can Kennedy ever trust her again? Kennedy was right when she said she's not sure if she's still Jules's best friend, and that Jules has been a stranger. We know why Jules has been a stranger, but all the same, that gulf exists between the two girls. Reality is, Jules's best friend now is Ophelia. If Jules had told Kennedy right after the rape happened, that likely would've made all the difference in the world. But she lied and lied and then Nate beat her to the punch with his own version.

I don't disagree that this is probably how Kennedy is feeling but I would hope finding out your bff was raped would put the lying into perspective. (In that naturally Jules was trying to hide what happened to her, which is valid. But also in the sense that lying about studying is different than lying about being raped.) As well as the knowledge that you're not owed someone's secrets as a sign of trust and friendship.

But I do think the friendship is probably over. Kennedy doesn't have a great reason for choosing to believe that Jules might be lying about the rape. That's incredibly rare, for one. For another, again, lying about studying isn't remotely comparable to lying about rape. Even the briefest reflection on Jules behavior would support the rape accusation. However Kennedy feels about this, there's the issue of how does Jules get past Kennedy's reaction? I don't know how Jules approaches this now but in the long term there's pretty much no way her friendship with Kennedy comes back from this. 

[Cranberry]

5 hours ago, MV007 said:

Why would they go there?  Maybe I'm forgetting something but I can't remember a single scene that would suggest either of these characters is gay or bi.

I don't get that vibe from Jules, but Ophelia is most definitely bisexual. It's been hinted at a few times on the show (Harris asking if there was "a person" in her bed and assuming at first that Jules was "that kind of friend," and Ophelia joking in episode 7 that it was cool if Evan's date wanted to join them because she's "not one to pass up a good time"), and both the actress and the show's creator have confirmed it. Don't expect the character to ever flat-out state she's bisexual, though:

While Ophelia seems ready to embark on a new relationship with Evan, Robinson confirms something many fans have been curious about and something she’s said on twitter, that Ophelia is indeed bisexual. However, don’t expect there to be any coming out scenes. “She never outwardly comes out and says she’s bisexual because she just is, and we did not feel like she needed to come out,” explains Robinson. Given that the show was built upon the principles of inclusivity and representation, Robinson is eagerly awaiting the chance to explore Ophelia’s sexuality in the future. “I will say if we get a Season 2 I would love to see Ophelia in a relationship with a woman. I think that would be awesome and she’s the kind of person that if she finds someone she’s passionate about, gender is not an issue,” says Robinson. So male or female, more than anything says Robinson, Ophelia “is just looking for love, companionship and someone who is going to want to play video games with her. If that’s a girl, dope. We are so open to that.”

From here.

[Cranberry]

How Sweet/Vicious Approached Its Necessary, Groundbreaking Rape Episode (article written by the show's creator, Jennifer Kaytin Robinson)

[Black Knight]

7 hours ago, slf said:

I don't disagree that this is probably how Kennedy is feeling but I would hope finding out your bff was raped would put the lying into perspective. (In that naturally Jules was trying to hide what happened to her, which is valid. But also in the sense that lying about studying is different than lying about being raped.) As well as the knowledge that you're not owed someone's secrets as a sign of trust and friendship.

But I do think the friendship is probably over. Kennedy doesn't have a great reason for choosing to believe that Jules might be lying about the rape. That's incredibly rare, for one. For another, again, lying about studying isn't remotely comparable to lying about rape. Even the briefest reflection on Jules behavior would support the rape accusation. However Kennedy feels about this, there's the issue of how does Jules get past Kennedy's reaction? I don't know how Jules approaches this now but in the long term there's pretty much no way her friendship with Kennedy comes back from this. 

Yes, but let's keep Kennedy's state in mind. She'd spent hours first being upset at having caught her best friend in yet another lie and then at her boyfriend telling her that he and her best friend cheated on her. She was overwhelmed. I completely get how she wasn't in the headspace to be able to immediately take in and objectively assess Jules's statement that no, she didn't sleep with Nate consensually, he raped her. Look at what she said after Jules told her that: "I'm sorry, WHAT?" And she didn't actually take a position on whether Jules or Nate is lying; she basically peaced out on that so she could lose her shit in private some more. She even apologized as she closed the door, which tells us that she's not reacting virulently against Jules; she really just can't deal at this second.

Jules's position is objectively stronger for the reasons you say, but Kennedy wasn't in a clear state of mind to think objectively and further, when she asked why she should believe Jules, Jules's answer was an appeal to emotion, not logic: "Because I'm your best friend." The problem with that is that Kennedy also loves Nate, and she met Jules and Nate at the same time, so they're basically even. This isn't a case where Jules has been Kennedy's best friend since childhood while Nate has been her boyfriend for only a year; they've both been in her life for the same amount of time, so she probably doesn't feel a particularly stronger bond with one or know one better than the other. Let's say the truth was the opposite and Nate wasn't a rapist and Jules was lying; Nate would have just as much reason to be upset with Kennedy for believing he's a rapist, now wouldn't he? Both Jules and Nate can make the same emotional argument: "You know and love me, how can you believe I'd do X?" and one really doesn't carry any more weight than the other, not when Kennedy's known them both the same length of time. No matter which way Kennedy goes she will have to accept that someone she loves did something that she didn't think they were capable of doing.

Let's see how Kennedy does when she's had a moment to calm down enough to actually reflect on things. If it had just been a normal day for her and she'd been in a normal headspace and she didn't believe Jules right away, I'd be a lot harder on her. But Nate beating Jules to the punch with his story was unfortunate. He broke Kennedy's heart with his and Jules's supposed joint betrayal of her and threw her into a really bad headspace for thinking logically on her feet. I'd like to know the person who could immediately pivot.

That said, I agree with you that Jules should ultimately have a very hard time coming back from this. It's a tough, realistic situation because I don't think either of them are wrong exactly, but the friendship should logically be over (I don't know if the writers will go that dark with it). On Jules's side because Kennedy didn't swear the instant Jules said Nate raped her that she believed Jules; on Kennedy's side because Jules is a liar in general and, probably more importantly, someone who let Kennedy date a rapist. And sure, I get why Jules has lied about various things and I get why it was hard for her to tell Kennedy that Nate's a rapist. But I don't see how logically Kennedy gets over that, just as I don't see how Jules gets over Kennedy not immediately believing her, even though I understand Jules in the former (not telling Kennedy her boyfriend is dangerous) and Kennedy in the latter (being too overwhelmed to immediately objectively assess Jules's accusation). It's possible for something to be understandable and not even wrong per se and yet still be something that's not able to be moved past. I like both women and I find it all very sad, but I don't see how either of them could ever be best friends with the other again. Like Kennedy said, nothing's ever going to be the same.

[zxy556575]

8 hours ago, Cranberry said:

“I will say if we get a Season 2 I would love to see Ophelia in a relationship with a woman. I think that would be awesome and she’s the kind of person that if she finds someone she’s passionate about, gender is not an issue,” says Robinson.

Not that I'm against it per se, but Ophelia and Evan are already adorable together.

[shelley1234]

I usually resist watching MTV shows, but this one caught my eye and I thought I'd give it a shot.  

I've been absolutely gobsmacked and riveted by it.  The show is really well done and in absolutely scary way.  They literally take on the fight that women have on a daily basis against the real and perceived physical threats against them.  And then the last two episodes really going into the specifics of what actually happened to Jules.  It broke my heart.  It was done in such a real way.  It's something we all know someone that an eerily similar story has happened to or that is our own story.  

I wish this show was something that really found an audience and people were seeing.  They need to see it.  

[whiporee]

I thought that was the first misstep of the season, and it was a big one. Jules being out of control seemed out of character, especially for someone whose whole character is based on trying to regain some control of her life. Kennedy's coolness toward toward Tyler and her blase characterization of Jules to her ex boyfreind seemed almost cruel in its disdain for her friend. Kennedy reconciling with Nate -- and Nate's motivation for needing the reconciliation -- made her into a punchcard oblivious girlfriend and him into a cartoon villain. Ophelia downplaying the vigilante stuff to be with her boyfriend made it seem like girls just wanna be loved, and all that other important stuff in ones life can be tossed away when a cute boy pays attention. Even Jules and Ophelia's fight in the dorm room felt weird and forced, as though Ophelia, whose life is about abandoning standard choices being angry at Jules for not going to her support group, and then tossing her aside when Jules isn't getting help the way O wants her to. Not to mention the fact that Brady seemed a) way over the top, like a Alex Cross villain ( collecting souvenirs? Really?) and b) he didn't scream for help when he was getting thrown across the room? Not a peep from him while he's getting his ass kicked by two people, and then screaming at the people who just beat the shit out of him? And no one hearing? It was one of the few times on the show the logic of the beat-downs didn't work. And why do it so publicly, with so much risk? It was all forced plot that didn't make sense, and that's not really even mentioning Harris and the school cop trying to catch the vigilante. Why would they -- who think injustice is being done and that the boys in question are actually rapists -- care about that happens to him? That didn't make sense, either. It was all just a bunch of forced plot and contrivance that didn't make a lot of sense, and in some cases were just stupid.

But those weren't the worst things. The worst was Kennedy ignoring (or at least putting aside) Ophelia's speech and being with Nate again -- the abused woman who keeps going back. Dumb. Then Nate's stereotypical rapist rage -- until the smirk at the end of the last episode, you could make the case that Nate wasn't a stereotypical villain in this story; he was a college guy who made a huge, giant, life-altering drunken mistake. That happens and it doesn't diminish the crime in any way. But now he's shown as just a rape waiting to happen, and the show was on a more interesting path than that. Plus, it makes a crazy argument that he could keep ALL of those tendencies hidden from his girlfriend all this time. But even worse, it took him almost raping her to put Kennedy into Jules' corner, saying that Jules had to be proven right to get support from her best friend, and that women will always choose the boy over almost anything else. It just didn't work. To me that scene took away from everything they'd done until then, because it made it seemed like Kennedy needed proof to believe -- even proof beyond the obvious case O laid out -- she needed to be attacked herself. That's bullshit storytelling, but from a character perspective, Jules should be pissed. Faith, by definition, doesn't require proof, and by Kennedy only really believing Jules after she had proof demeans the entire relationship. 

And I'm really worried abut next week, because what has been a very nuanced show seems to be headed toward a much more stereotypical area next week, where we're replaying The Accused. They've earned my trust so I'll hold out, but I am worried about where the show goes from here. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by whiporee
It was late, and I wanted to do better.

[Cranberry]

This one felt off to me, too. Everyone was out of character and the dialogue wasn't as snappy as usual. Harris, who I usually enjoy, seemed to be phoning it in this week, and Brady and the former campus security guy were overacting so much that their scenes were painful to watch. I like that this show has a lot of humorous moments, but it feels like that security guard belongs in a quirky sitcom or something; his humor is not this show's humor.

I did like the Ophelia/Jules confrontation, but solely for the acting; I didn't completely buy that Jules would lash out at Ophelia in that way. I also liked the Jules and Kennedy reconciliation, but I agree that it sucks that Nate had to go all angry violent before she'd finally admit the truth to herself. I get that we were supposed to understand that she knew deep down all along and that was the final straw that pushed her firmly into Jules's corner, but Nate's outburst felt too stereotypical and convenient, and it really did come across like Kennedy needed proof before she could trust her best friend... which just makes me want to see Jules go reconcile with her true best friend, Ophelia, instead.

[tongueincheek]

I don't think this one felt so off to me as it was obviously their oh-shit-we-only-have-3-episodes-left-we-need-to-move-the-plot-now episode. Up until this one, all of the episodes have been a completely layered unpacking of Jules' story, digging inch-by-inch into her backstory; all the why's of how she got to this place. But now we're done with that. We've seen it all. 

And just my perspective, but no one felt off in their character either, more so that the situation everyone was in felt off from their norm. Ophelia is navigating new relationship waters while trying to balance the vigilante stuff. Harris is now harboring his own scheming secret with Barton, also navigating a new relationship, and Jules has been bending since episode 1, I was waiting for her break. And it happened in exactly the way I expected it to happen. She has been so in control of herself since the beginning, but since letting Ophelia in and being so vulnerable with her, she can let go to a degree (that's when things get increasingly sloppy). Even after confronting Nate and finally telling Kennedy, things only got worse, and her sense completely toppled. Of course, she's going to reach a point of desperation: tracking Brady in the daytime, doing solo recon without telling Ophelia -- this is the one thing she knows how to do, and the only band-aid sticky enough to cover up her wounds. I love that Ophelia told Jules everything she needed to hear -- it's not that Jules is dealing with her trauma in a way Ophelia doesn't approve, it's that she's not dealing with it AT ALL. That's the point of Ophelia's spiel. And the longer she let's that darkness build, the more vulnerable it makes her AND Ophelia. Jules giving Ophelia that brutal verbal lashing also makes sense to me. She is her most vulnerable with Ophelia because O knows everything that has happened to her; she felt offended by Ophelia speech because she didn't want to hear the truth. So she went on the ultimate defensive: her anger is completely misguided of course and Ophelia has every right to be pissed at her, but I totally get why Ophelia was the one to catch her fire. Who else is she going to aim it at really when you consider her headspace? She tried and failed with Nate. I don't know; all of the major beats of this episode completely worked for me.

And unfortunately again, I totally understand the Kennedy situation -- whether we as humans want to admit it or not, it often takes the extreme for things to truly resonate and wake us up. Kennedy was in denial; of course she knew the truth, but of course she didn't want to admit it...because she'd be THAT girl. I loved Aisha Dee's body language in her last scene with Nate. He's hugging apologetically while she just sits there frozen. Her face was so reluctant and her body so unresponsive to it because it was setting in and she was finally processing it all. It sucks that it took her almost being compromised for her to get it, but unfortunately, that's a lot of us. Me included most of the time. I always learn the hard way. 

The only things that didn't fit in the episode for me were the rom-com bits. But I reason it as a way to move Kennedy's arc forward. Contrived, absolutely, but it needed to happen. Barton's humor totally reminds me of the fleeting moments we have with Jules - the humor lies in their awkwardness and total aloofness. 

I don't know, for a show that has been completely top notch all the way through, even this sub-par episode felt solid and the major confrontations felt honest and earned. Or maybe, I'm watching through rose-colored glasses because I love the show THAT much. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by tongueincheek

[Slovenly Muse]

Yeah, I don't agree that this one felt off. Yes, it seems out of character for Jules to totally go off on someone and lose control like that, but it makes perfect sense that the last shred of control she had over her inner darkness was ripped away as soon as she saw Kennedy back with Nate, and understood that her best friend had just chosen to side with a rapist and believe that she was, essentially, a lying whore.

And it makes sense for Kennedy to initially side with Nate. Just like Jules couldn't bring herself to confront what had happened to her, Kennedy ALSO couldn't bring herself to confront what she knew to be the truth. Nate's blowup in the bedroom was not just a convenient way to open Kennedy's eyes - I get the sense that Nate has little incidents like this a lot. It's part of who he is. Remember early in the season when he wanted Kennedy to go with him to some special event, and she had some super-important work to do for herself that took priority over being his arm candy, and he blew up at her? It was over quickly, and he was all apologies immediately afterward, but that kind of behaviour says so much about Nate. He's not just a college boy who made a terrible drunken mistake. He's someone who, when he has a conflict or problem with a woman, responds by lashing out like a baby having a tantrum and asserting his power over her. Compare this behaviour to someone like Harris, who, when HE has a conflict with a woman (like Ophelia for being a bad employee, or the editor of the law journal for pigeonholing him as the "minority" reporter), he confronts her about it openly and honestly, they have a productive conversation about the issue, and arrive at a healthy resolution without any weird power games or bottled-up resentments. But Kennedy has gotten so used to handwaving away Nate's little blowups that of course her mind can't be changed overnight, or by one conversation. It took time (and her love for Jules, and some observation of Nate's behaviour with fresh eyes) for her to be ready to accept the truth.

And when she found Jules holed up in the library, and told her that she was a person who deserved to be heard, I legit started crying. When this show first premiered, some reviewers wondered if the arc of the season would lead Jules to rain some vigilante justice down on the head of her own attacker. But over the past couple of episodes it seems like the REAL arc for Jules will not be finding the strength to confront Nate in a dark alley as some anonymous ass-kicker, but in a court of law, in the public eye, seeking ACTUAL justice for what happened to her. Which is a hell of a lot more difficult and powerful.

This really is the best MTV show no one is watching. If it doesn't get a second season, I hope it at least finds some post-cancellation fame, because it is so incredibly deserving of an audience.

[tongueincheek]

37 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

This really is the best MTV show no one is watching. If it doesn't get a second season, I hope it at least finds some post-cancellation fame, because it is so incredibly deserving of an audience.

I've been thinking of some places this could go if MTV isn't smart enough to renew it. I hope the creator/producers are also shopping it to Netflix or even Hulu (whose originals slate is really starting to shape up rather nicely). And while, FX is more male skewing, the success of shows like "You're the Worst" and "Better Things" give me reason to believe it could find a decent spot to transplant itself there.

[Cranberry]

TVDB has episodes 9 and 10 listed as airing on the 24th and 30th, but the show's official Twitter says they're both airing on the 24th. "Season finale" rather than "series finale" (or just 'finale") is nice, but doesn't mean much at this point. I hope the critical acclaim is enough to get this gem of a show renewed.

[paulvdb]

Must have been a recent change to the schedule. Wikipedia still lists the episodes on the 24th and 31st, but spoilertv's schedule has them both listed on the 24th. I guess people should keep an eye on their dvr to make sure that they are recording both episodes.

[tennisgurl]

I am with everyone else on this one. It seems like everything was being rushed to get closer to the ending, where we can get Kennedy back on Jules side, Jules can get closer to a meltdown and Ophelia and Jules can have their second act breakup, Nate can twirl his mustache, and Harris can bust Ophelia and Jules. In retrospect, kind of obvious, really. Oh well, we will see where it goes from here.

I do want to know why the security guy is so desperate to catch the vigilante. Now, I get that as a (former) member of the law, he would want to stop any vigilante justice, but shouldn't he be more concerned with the seemingly endless amount of unpunished rapists running around campus, including some seeming serial rapists, and how the school administration is trying to apparently cover it up? If he wants to still be involved with this case even after being fired, why not focus on that?

I actually found Nate's friend who is into romantic comedies to be kind of charming in a frat boy kind of way. Granted, he did say he was going to look the other way when Nate followed Jules upstairs, but maybe he just thought they were going to have consensual sex? Of course, if he turns out to be cool with Nate when its revealed what a rapist asshole he is, I will totally revise all of that. Speaking of Nate, is all of that new to Kennedy? Has he ever gone all rapist rage before? It doesn't seem like he had.

[Cranberry]

It's too late right now for me to post full thoughts, but that finale was super satisfying. We got to watch Nate get beat up and be publicly humiliated (which is even more of a punishment for a guy like that than violence). With the Nate case and the murder case (mostly) wrapped up, Jules and Ophelia reconciled, Ophelia and Harris reconciled and Harris on board as the Bosley, plus the official opening of the Sweet/Vicious website, that season finale could even stand as a series finale (although of course I hope it doesn't).

[taragel]

What a note-perfect first season. Such a good show, and an important one. I watched with such a sense of trepidation that Jules and Ophelia would get caught and punished. But this is a superhero show, right? Batman is never caught and/or punished for what he does. I'm gonna/assume hope if we get another season that will be the case here. I think the fear is more real though because they're women and women are always treated to punishment.

I did think it was surprising that the school security guy (Barton?) wasn't in the finale. Did he get dismissed? I'm so glad Harris is on the inside and gonna be their Bosley. I'd assume Tyler will also be taken into the fold and maybe Ophelia's guy too, next season.  What was that closeup shot on something pink under a gas tank in the garage?

[paulvdb]

It looked like a piece of cloth. I assume it's something that got torn off one of the girls' clothes when they killed Tyler's brother. So it could be possible evidence against them if someone finds it.

[Zanne]

11 hours ago, paulvdb said:

It looked like a piece of cloth. I assume it's something that got torn off one of the girls' clothes when they killed Tyler's brother. So it could be possible evidence against them if someone finds it.

Spoiler

According to the Sweet/Vicious twitter account, it's Jules' backpack. They made a big deal about pointing that out to be sure no one missed it. I saw the pink, but didn't make the connection.

[whiporee]

A couple of weird things going on that threw me off. The serious lack of concern from O when Tyler was jailed was disconcerting -- I know this guy's going to prison for what we did, but c'mon let's get back to having fun and getting revenge on Nate -- as was the small nature of everything. I think the show suffered, in the end, from its modest beginnings and stretching to portray things it didn't really understand.

For example, it wanted the bad guy to be a football player, but nothing about the way it portrayed football in a college was ever even close to being realistic, from the fact that Nate was five inches shorter than Tyler (and much less buff). The MVP ceremony help before the season ended held without alumni or media and took place in what could be generously called a small high-school gymnasium. Or that a star quarterback rooming with a non-player. Or a college's security force basically being one guy. Or that a college president overturning a Title IX hearing's ruling would be so setup with lawsuit potential no one would ever consider it for a moment. Or a DA publicly telling ANYONE, EVER (much less a kid who has shown a recklessness in publishing) that they protect the college over victims. The list could go on. 

And that's without mentioning the silliness of the murder investigation (and the overt ... wrongness of pinning a capital crime on another human being, no matter who they are), Ophelia's super hacking skills, Jules' ability to flip recovery and non-recovery over like a switch, the flippancy of college women on a serious subject, a public website where women are going to report assaults, and the apparently thousands of them that happen on this campus. And how fast Ophelia washed green dye from her hair. 

But there were great, great moments. Jules's flashback scenes were amazing. The idea of the bathroom wall was brilliant, and the overall theme of the two of them taking things into their own hands and being willing to fight, despite consequences was smart and very satisfying. I even liked that Jules won her case, because she clearly would have as soon as Miles said she was wasted. It could be so good sometimes. 

I think they'd be much better served by reducing the scale of everything. Make Darlington a small liberal arts college, forget sports all together, forget the patriarchal conspiracy and focus on the very cool story of these two young women doing what they think is right about a real problem. Stay away from the cartoons or the apparent collection of psychopathic men on this little campus and narrow the story -- if you're going to take on this issue, hyperbole doesn't help

[Isle Of Why]

On 1/25/2017 at 8:34 AM, taragel said:

I'd assume Tyler will also be taken into the fold and maybe Ophelia's guy too, next season.

Probably, but Jules and Ophelia are turning into sociopaths with their "end justifies the means" vigilante tunnel vision. They were complicit in the manslaughter of Tyler's stepbrother and Jules has been living that lie with Tyler. If I'm supposed to feel good or in any way positive about their romance, nuh uh.

29 minutes ago, whiporee said:

the overt ... wrongness of pinning a capital crime on another human being, no matter who they are

Fictional TV and all, but that really bothered me. Harris Bosley-ing up is fine for purposes of the story, but I was disappointed in him.

[AzureOwl]

On 25/1/2017 at 8:34 AM, taragel said:

 I'm so glad Harris is on the inside and gonna be their Bosley. I'd assume Tyler will also be taken into the fold and maybe Ophelia's guy too, next season.  

I don't think so.

They seem to be going all the way back to The Shadow for inspiration and having the girls recruit a small army of ad hoc agents to assist with the individual takedowns, while still maintaining their secret identity. It worked wonderfully with Miles, Nate's friend.

Speaking of which, I was pleasantly surprised by Miles. I liked that he turned out to be a genuine, if slightly scummy, good guy. The show could've gone the easy route and have everyone associated with Nate be an evil bastard, but they added nuance by  having Miles be A-OK with being complicit on cheating, but absolutely horrified at actual rape.  The way they actually have him figure it out on his own once he starts to really stop to think about that night was a high point.  

[tongueincheek]

I have not finished watching episode 10 yet, but I have to call out those Mackenzie scenes in episode 9. They are my favorite grace notes of the season (along with the above mentioned Miles development). They really gave a comic character her dramatic due, and it was a beautiful payoff. The scene when Mackenzie approaches Jules in the kitchen and she says something like, "I'm the safety chair..." and there's a slight inflection in her voice, the guilt. Man, I teared up there. Since the pilot, Mackenzie has had this bit of tension/animosity towards Jules - which was written with humor -- and to see how that built to this emotional beat was a really great moment for the character and the actress. 

[taragel]

5 hours ago, Isle Of Why said:

Probably, but Jules and Ophelia are turning into sociopaths with their "end justifies the means" vigilante tunnel vision. They were complicit in the manslaughter of Tyler's stepbrother and Jules has been living that lie with Tyler. If I'm supposed to feel good or in any way positive about their romance, nuh uh.

Fictional TV and all, but that really bothered me. Harris Bosley-ing up is fine for purposes of the story, but I was disappointed in him.

Do you think that's Jenn Kaytin Robinson's ultimate intention to show the girls are turning into sociopaths (or psychopaths)? I'm genuinely curious because I haven't seen many interviews with her at all or much coverage of the show and I did wonder. My thoughts were that again, like Batman, regardless of what he does to extract vengeance on a target, that target has already been set up as a bad guy and you are supposed to root for Batman. I'm sure the show will always be a bit more nuanced and keep things complicated, with them crossing ethical lines, but for this season, they've always easily escaped real consequences (sometimes quite contrivedly).

I know it's probably empirically wrong but I can't root against these girls. I just don't want them to get caught and punished. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by taragel

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

Speaking of which, I was pleasantly surprised by Miles. I liked that he turned out to be a genuine, if slightly scummy, good guy

I was pleasantly surprised by that too. I found Miles to be pretty charming, in a frat boy kind of way, in previous episodes, so I was glad to see him actually being a decent guy here. I guess to him, heling a bro cheat on his girlfriend is one thing, but rape is a whole different thing. I thought the actor did a good job, especially in the interview when he said how drunk Jules as, and you could see the pieces coming together in his head.

I thought this was certainly a very good and important season of TV, but it didn't quite stick the landing. For starters, it required Nate to basically turn into a total villain, who is now apparently about to join some kind of rapist Legion of Doom against the Sweet/Vicious girls. Before the last few episodes, Nate seemed like he really did think that he and Jules had sex, and he had either convinced himself that Jules consented, or really thought he and Jules had rough but consensual sex, but now, it turns out he is just a Law and Order SVU bad guy who cackles evilly and brags about all the women he has raped. Not that there aren't people like that, but it seems like it might be a more interesting story if he was a bit more subtle. Plus adding in the Evil Spots Patriarchal Conspiracy just made the whole thing seem pretty cliché.  Also, O must have been right about this school having the highest rape stats in the country, because holy crap, with the rapes we have heard about, the Wall, and now the millions of stories that appeared on the website immediately, I'm amazed that every single woman in this college hasn't been assaulted, and every guy besides Tyler, Harris, Miles, and O`s boyfriend aren't serial rapists. I get that the show needs bad guys for them to fight, but dear God!

I did also raise an eyebrow at Ophelia just jumping from Tyler getting arrested to her Nate take down. It was like "Come on Jules, taking Nate down will make you feel better!" "You know what would make me feel better? My boyfriend not rotting in jail for the crime WE COMMITTED!"

Those complaints aside, I enjoyed a lot about this episode, and I am really excited about season two. From the interviews the creator has given, it sounds like they have some interesting stuff coming up.

Edited January 27, 2017 by tennisgurl

[whiporee]

The most interesting scenes in the episodes were Jules and Ophelia after the Title IX court had ruled in her favor, as they sat on the sofa and understood what had happened: that they had committed crimes and assaults, and in the end the system had actually worked. THAT would have been a great stepping off point -- are university punishments enough? Without a beatdown, are the guilty really PUNISHED by being kicked out of school for a semester? Or must they also have their asses kicked for there to be justice? 

I also thought there was a good story to be told if Nate really thought he did nothing wrong -- not that he was entitled and a he man woman hater, but he was drunk and horny and she was there in his bed, and he thought what he did was okay. Or not that bad. But they get to tell the story they want to tell. However, there's no way Nate is still in school after that.. No way. There's no way that after a public admission like that he's not being prosecuted. No way.

I agree -- good and important season, but I thought the last three episodes took a lot away from the really great stuff they did earlier.  

[Cranberry]

Sweet/Vicious creator on what they'd explore in a potential season 2

[Cranberry]

Will 'Sweet/Vicious' Return For Season 2? This Empowering MTV Series Better Come Back For More

"If there's one silver lining to this news, it's the fact that Sweet/Vicious performs extraordinary well when it comes to increasing its audience size via streaming, On Demand, and DVR throughout the week after each episode airs — a number known as the L+7 rating. According to TVByTheNumbers, Sweet/Vicious sees the fourth largest audience increase across all of cable when L+7 is taken into account, behind only Top Chef, Good Behavior, and Rectify, going up a whopping 118 percent."

[slf]

I actually have no problem with them pinning the death of Tyler's brother on the pedophile. A person who rapes children going to prison for the rest of his life or even potentially being executed? I'm fine with that.

I do think having Jules hook up with Tyler despite knowing he's the dead guy's brother is stupid, tho. And given that they had him specifically notice the tear in Jules' backpack I'm guessing he'll be the one to figure it out.

[whiporee]

Not to get too much into this, but I do think there's an issue with a pair of young women -- or any college kids, regardless of gender -- deciding that the courts were just wrong in letting the pedophile off. We have courts and laws and protections for a reason, and to have J&O be the arbeiters of guilt seems draconian to me.  

Just fiction, just a plot point, but still.  They did kill a guy whose only crime against them was defending himself when Jules attacked.  Might have done a lot more, but Jules didn't KNOW that.  Vigilante justice is always a slippery slope.  

Edited January 31, 2017 by whiporee

[Cranberry]

'Sweet/Vicious' on Bubble as MTV Cancels Two Comedies

"Mary + Jane and Nicole will not be returning," McCarthy told THR during an interview about the new Viacom, noting he's given the rights back to producers to shop both series elsewhere. "We love the product and think they're great stories. We love Nicole and Snoop and have a lot of business with Snoop [including VH1's Martha and Snoop's Potluck Dinner Party]. But they just weren't resonating in the way that we would have liked them to. Sweet/Vicious is a story we think is incredibly important and very timely and we're trying to figure out what the right way to relaunch that and figure out what the next iteration of that is. No decision has been made yet but we love the show and are trying to figure that out." 

MTV’s ‘Loosely Exactly Nicole’ & ‘Mary + Jane’ Comedy Series Canceled After One Season, What About ‘Sweet/Vicious’?

But Sweet/Vicious — about two female students who become vigilantes at night seeking revenge on campus rapist — has been well received by critics and has created buzz with its timely topic. Its future is still being evaluated, McCarthy said.

“We love the characters and how the show relates to modern feminism,” he told Deadline. “Its numbers were disappointing but the sentiment for the show has been nothing but fantastic.”

[taragel]

Maybe if you gave it some of Teen Wolf or Scream's promo budget the numbers wouldn't have been so disappointing, eh, MTV?

[luckyroll3]

13 hours ago, Cranberry said:

“We love the characters and how the show relates to modern feminism,” he told Deadline. “Its numbers were disappointing but the sentiment for the show has been nothing but fantastic.”

The "numbers were disappointing" because they didn't promote it all.  The few promos I saw did nothing for conveying what the show was about.  And the only reason I ended up watching it was because I went on the MTV app to find the start date of Teen Wolf and saw this show below it and that it had something to do with a female ninja, which made me think, "huh, I didn't realize this show had ninjas....I like ninjas!" I was sold after 1 episode.

MTV just needs to let the show go if they're not gonna do right by it.  The problem is, they want to capitalize on a hot button issue without offending anyone.

[Valny]

MTV isn't streaming the full eps anymore? Bad enough you can't get them on Demand, now MTV pulled them? Crap, I wanted to introduce there series to my sister. Not even on Youtube either....grrrr.... Are they anywhere else to be found?

[Cranberry]

Argh. Bad news, guys: ‘Sweet/Vicious’ Canceled By MTV After One Season

[paulvdb]

I'm going to miss the show, but it's not surprising with the low ratings that it got.

[taragel]

Mo Ryan is going to moderate a panel with Jenn Kaytin Robinson and Taylor Dearden among others at the Austin ATX festival this summer! Hopefully that means a better chance at getting another outlet to pick it up to continue it.

[Cranberry]

Sweet/Vicious creator hasn't given up hope for season 2

‘Sweet/Vicious’ Canceled by MTV but Should Live on Elsewhere (Opinion)

[Valny]

Come on Netflix, grab up Sweet/Vicious! I bet it would do decent on there and maybe surprising good. They already have a million new series, what's one more.....and it's really good.
I was pissed when I heard it wasn't coming back, for some reason I thought it was.

[taragel]

Jenn Kaytin did the Split Screens TV festival in NY this week and talked about how she'd planned to end the show at the end of the five-year plan she had for it ("I wanted it to end with Ophelia going down for everything to give Jules the life that was taken away from her"), so since she's divulging that I guess it's really dead. :(

Although I have to admit that end would not have pleased me. I wanted them both to get away with it.

[Cranberry]

I hate that proposed ending and hope that if the show does find a new home, she changes her mind.

They are still looking:

http://deadline.com/2017/06/sweet-vicious-mtv-stacey-sher-1202111114/

[taragel]

I have to say, I watched a lot of the show's first season with a real sense of dread/trepidation that the girls would inevitably be horribly punished. Towards the end, I started to feel like "Oh wait, I was clearly mistaken. This isn't like EVERY OTHER show. Women can actually get angry and do bad things and be antiheroes who get away with it, just like men do in all those prestige TV dramas." But hearing this is the ending she has planned actually kills my enthusiasm for the show continuing on. I don't want Ophelia to martyrishly give up her life/freedom just because Jules had the terrible misfortune to be raped. How is that fair/appropriate/whatever? It's noble and twistedly good-hearted, I guess, but incredibly stupid and a terrible life decision. Maybe it's better just to have one really great season if that's the way it's going to play out. If anything, they should get a Thelma and Louise style ending: In it together to the end, no matter what.

[Black Knight]

Oy, I hate that proposed ending too. I'd rather the girls stick together as well. However - should the show return - I'm trying to keep in mind that it's the ending after another four seasons of story. In other words, while Ophelia sacrificing herself at this point for Jules doesn't seem fair or appropriate, some things could happen in the remaining four seasons that would justify such an ending. Plus, she doesn't really say exactly what happens to Ophelia. Like, maybe Ophelia sacrifices herself, but an awesome lawyer turns her punishment into a slap on the wrist. Her mom's wealthy and well-connected, after all. So all in all, I'm still going to hope that the show returns, though if there's been nearly a month with no additional word, I guess it really is looking unlikely.

[Geofinder]

The show is available on Amazon for about $3.00 an episode. Spread the word. If enough people download it then maybe it'll send MTV a message.

[Valny]

I wish a streaming site would grab this show, man...I think it would do really well especially in these times with what is going on with the Me Too movement and such.  Maybe it aired just a little bit before it's time.

[taragel]

Well, it's something: 

Canceled MTV show #SweetVicious gets second life as comic-book series

https://variety.com/2018/tv/news/mtv-series-sweet-vicious-comic-book-series-1202967109/

Edited October 4, 2018 by taragel