Michonne: A Weapon with a Weapon

[Pete Martell]

I remember a lot of comments about how people couldn't understand what she was saying, or all she did was sneer, etc. (I'd mention some comics stuff but I'm not sure it's allowed outside of the comics thread) I'm glad things turned around, because if she'd behaved the way Abraham has, she probably would have had so much backlash she wouldn't have made it out of early season 4. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised she even became popular with fans, because I know it won't take much for huge hate to start. 

 

I felt sorry for Danai and for Laurie Holden when they'd talk about Andrea/Michonne and the love between the two women, because we were rarely shown this. In their brief moments together which weren't about conflict over The Governor, you really could see the bond between them. What a waste.

 

I still remember the scene in "Home" where Michonne went out of her way to save Hershel, at risk to herself, because he'd saved her life. And that was such a great moment, because for all the talk over the years of the group and loyalty and how the group is more important than the rest of humanity, Michonne wasn't a part of the group, she was being sent back into what was left of the world. She chose to save Hershel because of her own code of ethics. 

 

Michonne is one of those types of characters who likely would have been kept outside in the first few seasons, and whose arrival helped changed the group dynamics for the better. She's a part of the group, but she's also her own person. That's very healthy, because it means she doesn't put issues all over the group and make them into what she needs them to be. 

 

I hope the show explores that more if she ever gets more airtime...

[JBody]

Hey I liked Michonne from the get-go, but I (we) were in the minority there, I think.

[JBody]

I suspect sometimes that they want to subvert audience expectations and while that's admirable to a point (debatable) they sometimes miss some dramatic pay off. For example, at the end of season 2 it was all Andrea's dead and we saw that she wasn't, and I for one was wow they are going to be blown away when they meet up again. It wasn't until nearing the end of the season when they did and it was all sorts of awkward and frankly I didn't care so much at that point; it was anticlimactic. They are called dramatic conventions for a reason. Welp this went way off topic but S3 was a bit of a dog's breakfast. I do agree that Michonne got short shrift at times, particularly with regards to Andrea.

[kikismom]

 For example, at the end of season 2 it was all Andrea's dead and we saw that she wasn't, and I for one was wow they are going to be blown away when they meet up again.

They thought Andrea's dead and then she wasn't.

They thought Carol was dead and then she wasn't.

They thought Rick was dead and then he wasn't.

They thought Beth was dead and then she wasn't.

With brief moments that they thought Herschel, Gareth, and Merle were probably dead but they weren't.

Not to mention thinking Daryl was dead and turned into a walker but he wasn't.

 

I don't know if someone dies tonight, or who it would be, but I hope whoever it may be really croaks and stays croaked.

 

 It wasn't until nearing the end of the season when they did and it was all sorts of awkward and frankly I didn't care so much at that point; it was anticlimactic. They are called dramatic conventions for a reason. I do agree that Michonne got short shrift at times, particularly with regards to Andrea.

Completely agree. When you teach the viewers that you will reverse or mislead, people stop letting themselves experience the full feel...because you have been burned so many times. I think they have blown the guess who's not really gone device and need to stop using it.

 

I know the show runners and Danai herself have said in interviews that Michonne keeps a lot bottled up and it's a slow reveal. But they seem to forget that they see the evolution in the script planning; we only see 40 minutes per week with a lot of other characters and action. So it's harder for the viewers to see the reveal, and feel it.

Letting Michonne and Andrea talk more would have been great even if Michonne didn't say her life history we could have picked up a lot from how she interacted with the first person she bonded with after being alone. They only have really meaty conversations after they get to Woodbury, where of course it's all about the guy that matters--the Governor.

All the discussions with Rick and Carl were a bit weird; with Carl it's about feelings or how to think of things---while they are scavenging that house, or after the attack by the car. With Rick it's about supplies, what's the plan for travel or staying put, is Terminus legit, etc.

The closest thing to ever talking about each other is really not: he asks where she got the katana and how she got good with it. He's like a talk show host on morning TV. The glacial pace is a big part of the reason Michonne' character remains a cipher; not in the smartest way.

You can be mysterious without being closed shut.

Either do something with the character already or cut it out but keeping her just warming up in idle is way too slow for this many seasons.

[JBody]

Agreed. It was a ridiculous question anyway when the answer is so obvious: "Practice." It's the ZA, dumbass.

Which of course breaks my Richonnist heart. That dream is pretty much dead.

[AngelaHunter]

The problem I had with Michonne's arrival was the same others had who never read or even heard of the comics: I couldn't understand why she was so hateful and supicious of Woodbury and the Governor from the very second she and Andrea arrived there.  They'd not been harmed,  had safety, food, shelter and all the comforts and amenities they'd lacked for so long and even a doctor for Andrea, yet all Michonne did was glare, snarl and sulk as though she were chained in a dungeon being fed stale bread and water.

 

I was sure I had missed something since none of that made sense to me and then Rick rescued her at the prison and when he just asked her name she glared at him as though he had threatened to commit mayhem and murder on her. I can understand suspicion in the ZA world, but this seem all out of proportion to me. Okay, maybe after Woodbury she had reason to be more suspicious than ever, but simply asking her name gets a "if looks could kill" glower from her?

 

Just the POV of someone who went into this show totally unaware of any comic book events or backstory.

[Pete Martell]

They thought Beth was dead and then she wasn't.

 

All the discussions with Rick and Carl were a bit weird; with Carl it's about feelings or how to think of things---while they are scavenging that house, or after the attack by the car. With Rick it's about supplies, what's the plan for travel or staying put, is Terminus legit, etc.

The closest thing to ever talking about each other is really not: he asks where she got the katana and how she got good with it. He's like a talk show host on morning TV. The glacial pace is a big part of the reason Michonne' character remains a cipher; not in the smartest way.

 

I don't think they believed Beth was dead, they just assumed she was because of the nature of the world. It didn't seem as definitive as when they thought Andrea and Carol were dead. (I think Daryl said she was "just gone").

 

I don't think Michonne remains a cipher. I think we know a fair amount about her past and why she is who she is. I wish she had more relationships and I would love to see her become even closer to Rick, but I don't think Michonne is the type of character who would have deep personal conversations with people. She kept herself bottled up until she nearly lost all sense of humanity. Then she started to talk to Carl (as she was worried about him losing his humanity), which was a big emotional risk for her, one that helped her and helped Carl too. I think it's going to take a long time before she feels comfortable enough to say more to other people, even Rick. But I'm thrilled they haven't had her involved in lengthy talks about feelings and backstory. The show veers toward telling-not-showing with too many characters as it is.

I was sure I had missed something since none of that made sense to me and then Rick rescued her at the prison and when he just asked her name she glared at him as though he had threatened to commit mayhem and murder on her. I can understand suspicion in the ZA world, but this seem all out of proportion to me. Okay, maybe after Woodbury she had reason to be more suspicious than ever, but simply asking her name gets a "if looks could kill" glower from her?

 

I think this was after they'd mostly left her to die (with only Carl saving her at the last minute). Rick was also very tense with her. I wasn't surprised she was guarded.

 

I agree about Woodbury. I thought everything about that arc was poorly written. I took it as just a personality conflict and natural wariness that became more once she did some investigating, but it was definitely a leap.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Pete Martell

[kikismom]

It's important to remember that it wasn't only Michonne; that exact scene happens right as Rick has finally taken Judith in his hands for the first time, and takes her outside to the sunlight...and there's someone unknown who knows there's a baby? (carrying formula) I think he was not only wound up but had a right to freak out because no one outside should know; Glenn and Maggie haven't come back but somehow baby formula shows up with a complete stranger covered in blood...and his two people aren't there.

If someone in your family went out for milk and bread, they don't come back, but there's a blood-soaked stranger at your door with a grocery bag like here's your milk and bread....yeah I might think the worst.

[Pete Martell]

I can see why he was wary, definitely. I mostly meant I could also see why she was so on-edge. She was also badly injured, exhausted, and probably somewhat delirious.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Irishmaple]

I understood Michonne's wariness about Woodbury and her instant distrust of the place actually made me love the character.  Woodbury looked too good to be true to her.  It was too clean, too nice and too removed from the reality Michonne had lived since the ZA.  She was looking for the strings that had to be attached to a place like that.  She didn't take it at face value.  I really liked that about her.  She wasn't willing to be seduced by the prospect of a shower, a meal and security.  She understood that there would eventually be a price to pay and she was calculating what that might be from the first moment.  I understood Michonne's reaction way more than I understood Andrea's.  (I get Andrea's reaction; it just wouldn't be mine.  I have a tendency to look for the strings too)

[kikismom]

I did feel so bad at the moment Michonne says so you'd choose a warm bed over a friend?

After saving Andrea's life it must have been so hurtful.

Now that could have been something good to pursue...but of course that moment got left twisting in the wind while we got cartoony Villain from Batman with Human Head Aquariums.

Kirkman is immature and douchey.

[AngelaHunter]

She was looking for the strings that had to be attached to a place like that.  She didn't take it at face value

 

I could understand a normal type questioning and wondering about the hows and whys of that place - where they got all their supplies, etc. I couldn't understand extreme hostility and hatred from the minute she walked in. However, I had no problem understanding Andrea's strong desire to stay. If I had spent the winter lying on the cold ground, eating bugs and twigs, and being chased by zombies, I'd be willing to overlook some things too in order to have what would be seen as the incredible luxuries of Woodbury.

[ghoulina]

I had no problem with Andrea's desire to stay OR Michonne's immediate suspicion. They had very different personalities. I, personally, would have been a Michonne. The Guv put me off immediately. He was TOO nice, he was a bit of an ass-kisser. And didn't Michonne see those bullet holes in the vehicle fairly soon? It didn't seem right to her, and they had their weapons, and she just felt totally uncomfortable. Andrea was not only a more trusting person, but I think she WANTED to be deluded. She was tired and sick, and as tough as she always wanted others to think she was, she was not as tough as Michonne. She just did not want to keep going out there, she WANTED  a cute little dream town where she could bleach her bra to blinding levels of whiteness and get a pedicure. So she denied her friend's intuition and any bad feelings she might have been having herself. It annoyed me, but I do understand that there would be people out there like that. 

 

So yea, I appreciated Michonne wanting to get the fuck out of Dodge. I would have been right there with her. But I was one of those who thought she glowered way too much at first. I love Michonne now. She's one of my favorite characters, and I think Danai does a wonderful job with her character. But I didn't see what a lot of you saw in the beginning. IMO, she has grown a lot over the course of the show, as I feel many of the actors have. 

[mightysparrow]

Whenever I hear Michonne criticized about frowning too much I have to laugh since it was a-ok when Daryl did it. I don't remember Daryl singing any show tunes when he showed up. Or the scene where he sat the group around the campfire and told his entire life story. When Michonne was introduced she had been caring for Andrea for months, yet that wasn't enough to give her the tiniest benefit of the doubt. Makes you wonder.

[kikismom]

Whenever I hear Michonne criticized about frowning too much I have to laugh since it was a-ok when Daryl did it. I don't remember Daryl singing any show tunes when he showed up. Or the scene where he sat the group around the campfire and told his entire life story. When Michonne was introduced she had been caring for Andrea for months, yet that wasn't enough to give her the tiniest benefit of the doubt. Makes you wonder.

Daryl didn't show up, he was at the quarry when Rick came later...and Rick put a gun to Daryl's head twice which is not very cosy.

Then he and T-Dawg fought, he and Shane fought, he and Rick fought. Nothing was A-OK; even Dale said everyone had wanted to shoot Daryl at one time or another. That's hardly taking him into their bosoms.

When Michonne was introduced she may have been caring for Andrea for months yet she didn't say so and they didn't know. Michonne was not revealed as even having heard of Andrea till later, after the mission to save Glen and Maggie turned into the rescue of Daryl and Merle, and the next morning Merle told everyone (to their shock) that she and Andrea spent the winter together. Why would they give her benefit of the doubt for something they didn't know?

When did Daryl sit the group around the campfire and tell his entire life story?

[AngelaHunter]

She just did not want to keep going out there, she WANTED  a cute little dream town where she could bleach her bra to blinding levels of whiteness and get a pedicure.

 

I don't think she wanted a pedicure and whiter-than-white bra. I think she wanted a place where she could recover from an illness that may very well have killed her, if not for Woodbury,  and sleep in a real bed without the fear of being eaten alive.

[JBody]

'Tis true. I think a healthy chunk of the audience couldn't blame her, either. But as she wiffle-waffled neared the end, that's when it became sublimely ridiculous to me. She should've went with CDB at the end of Arrow on the Doorpost at the latest.

[Irishmaple]

She should have left with Michonne, even if she wasn't seeing what her ally was suspecting.  Her illness was gone by then and she was recovered enough to want to help around Woodbury.  It wasn't pretty outside the barricades, but if Michonne is telling me it's time to go, I'm grabbing my bag and going.  I'm trusting the woman who kept me alive on the outside rather than the guy laying on the charm inside.  That's when the character lost me.  It's not that Andrea didn't want to see; it's that she didn't want to look.   

[JBody]

Agree with that totally. And then all the chances she had after that added insult to injury, ya know? Not sure if I'm making sense at the moment (nighttime sinus medication).

[ghoulina]

I don't think she wanted a pedicure and whiter-than-white bra. I think she wanted a place where she could recover from an illness that may very well have killed her, if not for Woodbury,  and sleep in a real bed without the fear of being eaten alive.

 

Oh I agree. That's why I mentioned her being sick in my post. I was just being facetious, but also trying to convey that I saw Andrea as intentionally ignoring red flags because she liked not only being safe, but also getting some of those creature comforts from her previous life back. On the one hand, I can't say I blame her. It would be totally tempting after a winter in the woods. On the other hand, the Guv raised my hackles from day one and I'd be hard pressed not to trust my closest friend who had saved my life, probably more than once. I think Andrea should have left as soon as she was feeling better, but by then she was all wrapped up in her boyfriend.

[Pete Martell]

Another great article about Danai - her activism, her plays, etc.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/30/walking-dead-s-danai-gurira-vs-boko-haram.html

[editorgrrl]

Scott Gimple told Variety, "[T]here’s going to be significantly more Michonne in the second half of the season."

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/walking-dead-midseason-finale-postmortem-scott-gimple-talks-tragic-coda-1201367848/

[AngelaHunter]

That woman has a truly Fatal Finger of Death:

 

[kikismom]

Will she have a romance in the second half of the season?

[BrokenRemote]

I had no problem with Andrea's desire to stay OR Michonne's immediate suspicion. They had very different personalities. I, personally, would have been a Michonne. The Guv put me off immediately. He was TOO nice, he was a bit of an ass-kisser. And didn't Michonne see those bullet holes in the vehicle fairly soon? It didn't seem right to her, and they had their weapons, and she just felt totally uncomfortable. Andrea was not only a more trusting person, but I think she WANTED to be deluded. She was tired and sick, and as tough as she always wanted others to think she was, she was not as tough as Michonne. She just did not want to keep going out there, she WANTED a cute little dream town where she could bleach her bra to blinding levels of whiteness and get a pedicure. So she denied her friend's intuition and any bad feelings she might have been having herself. It annoyed me, but I do understand that there would be people out there like that.

So yea, I appreciated Michonne wanting to get the fuck out of Dodge. I would have been right there with her. But I was one of those who thought she glowered way too much at first. I love Michonne now. She's one of my favorite characters, and I think Danai does a wonderful job with her character. But I didn't see what a lot of you saw in the beginning. IMO, she has grown a lot over the course of the show, as I feel many of the actors have.

What got me though was that she could have told Andrea she'd seen the bullet holes. She had several opportunities. She didn't even try. Instead she just grunted a few refrains of 'can't trust this place' and then felt betrayed when Andrea didn't respond like Michonne wanted her to. Ten words would at least have given Andrea the benefit of the same info Michonne had. They were supposed to be friends and Michonne clammed up on her, too.

It was like the writers were so committed to showing her glower and grunt out no more than a few words that they lost logic where her character was concerned.

[Bongo Fury]

It was like the writers were so committed to showing her glower and grunt out no more than a few words that they lost logic where her character was concerned.

 

As if we haven't seen that time after time after time. A character acting completely out of character and utterly illogical in order to further the plot du jour.

[AngelaHunter]

It was like the writers were so committed to showing her glower and grunt

 

I know! That's what bugged me. There she was, stalking around Woodbury, face twisted in hatred, looking like the Predator, shooting lasers out of her eyes and terrifying the formerly happy town denizens... for NO apparent reason.

 

I tried my hardest to figure out what I'd missed about why she was acting this way and all I could come up with was, "She must be a lesbian and is jealous of Andrea's attraction to the Gov."

[Nashville]

I know! That's what bugged me. There she was, stalking around Woodbury, face twisted in hatred, looking like the Predator, shooting lasers out of her eyes and terrifying the formerly happy town denizens... for NO apparent reason.

 

I tried my hardest to figure out what I'd missed about why she was acting this way and all I could come up with was, "She must be a lesbian and is jealous of Andrea's attraction to the Gov."

 

My conclusion at the time was along these lines:

• Michonne rescued Andrea after the Farm's collapse, kept Andrea alive, and nursed Andrea when she got sick to the best of Michonne's ability with the limited available resources.
• When Andrea gets into Woodbury*, however, she is immediately blinded by a view of apparent pre-ZA-ish normality in the lives of the residents and the lies of the Governor - blinded in the sense of "there are none so blind as those who will not see".  Andrea wants the promise of Woodbury to be real, and she wants to immerse herself in that promise.  Andrea's denial of anything which would contradict such an idyllic reality, therefore, is not surprising.
• Michonne sees the same idealized presentation; being a true devotee of the "if it looks too good to be true it probably is" philosophy, however, Michonne doesn't buy what the Governor is selling.
• Michonne tries to get Andrea to acknowledge the inconsistencies - which Andrea, predictably, either tries to rationalize away or downright deny.

 

This is the source of Michonne's behavior.  After supporting (carrying, really) Andrea through several life-threatening situations, Michonne feels Andrea owes at least some serious consideration of Michonne's misgivings.  Andrea can't deliver, however, because to do so would put lie to that which Andrea desperately wants to be true.  This is what we're seeing in Michonne at this point in the series - not jealousy, but distrust (in the Woodbury facade) and frustration (with Andrea).

 

 

* Coincidentally, this was also about the same time as the Governor got into Andrea - but I digress.

[AngelaHunter]

•Michonne sees the same idealized presentation; being a true devotee of the "if it looks too good to be true it probably is" philosophy, however, Michonne doesn't buy what the Governor is selling.

•Michonne tries to get Andrea to acknowledge the inconsistencies - which Andrea, predictably, either tries to rationalize away or downright deny.

 

I think  we've had this discussion before ( memory is a bit wonky), but I'm not talking about normal suspicions, caution or instinctive wariness as clues and inconsistancies appear. I'm talking about - what seems to the viewer -  a full blown paranoia from the moment of setting foot in the place.

 

Perhaps  anyone who had heard of or read the comics could read behind the scenes to understand Michonne's raging surliness, but for those of us who had zero prior knowledge, it was just baffling. I was just as puzzled as Andrea was when Michonne hissed at her, "This place is NOT what they say it is", without giving a single reason why she felt that way.

[kikismom]

This is the source of Michonne's behavior.  After supporting (carrying, really) Andrea through several life-threatening situations, Michonne feels Andrea owes at least some serious consideration of Michonne's misgivings.  Andrea can't deliver, however, because to do so would put lie to that which Andrea desperately wants to be true.  This is what we're seeing in Michonne at this point in the series - not jealousy, but distrust (in the Woodbury facade) and frustration (with Andrea).

 

These are all good, valid points. I've also posted my sadness for Michonne when Andrea chooses Woodbury/The Gov. over her.

 

But re-watching this weekend, I noticed something; Andrea does say to Michonne "You know everything about me." Andrea talks about how she knows nothing about Michonne's life, and MIchonne sort of growls: "You know enough!"

 

I get how MIchonne had traumas. So did Andrea. You can't expect a friend to open up and trust, while you keep the door locked to them. Michonne should have realized that if you won't let someone in, they are going to still have that hunger for closeness and the validation of being trusted by another person with feelings (even if the Governor's feelings werent' sincere.)

You know with spouses, partners, or children,...if you won't give them affection and approval they'll get it from somebody.

Michonne did have feelings of bond with Andrea. But it was still too important to Michonne to keep her own secrets. People will only wait so long. Andrea and Michonne were together for 7-8 months. By that point if someone won't let you in, and the friendship is still one-sided as far as sharing soul confidences----well the other person is going to be real vulnerable to an easier welcome from another source.

That doesn't mean it's right what Andrea did. In fact the Governor used the same tactic as child molesters, con men, black widow killers, and cult leaders. But it doesn't work on people who have their needs met.

[mightysparrow]

These are all good, valid points. I've also posted my sadness for Michonne when Andrea chooses Woodbury/The Gov. over her.

 

But re-watching this weekend, I noticed something; Andrea does say to Michonne "You know everything about me." Andrea talks about how she knows nothing about Michonne's life, and MIchonne sort of growls: "You know enough!"

 

I get how MIchonne had traumas. So did Andrea. You can't expect a friend to open up and trust, while you keep the door locked to them. Michonne should have realized that if you won't let someone in, they are going to still have that hunger for closeness and the validation of being trusted by another person with feelings (even if the Governor's feelings werent' sincere.)

You know with spouses, partners, or children,...if you won't give them affection and approval they'll get it from somebody.

Michonne did have feelings of bond with Andrea. But it was still too important to Michonne to keep her own secrets. People will only wait so long. Andrea and Michonne were together for 7-8 months. By that point if someone won't let you in, and the friendship is still one-sided as far as sharing soul confidences----well the other person is going to be real vulnerable to an easier welcome from another source.

That doesn't mean it's right what Andrea did. In fact the Governor used the same tactic as child molesters, con men, black widow killers, and cult leaders. But it doesn't work on people who have their needs met.

 

That takes the responsibility out of Andrea's hands and makes what happens cold mean Michonne's fault.

 

Andrea was a grown ass woman.  She wasn't a child or a battered woman.  Just because Michonne didn't share at the campfire, or swap stories about her first time (period, kiss, whatever) doesn't make it okay that Andrea dumped her as soon as a better offer came along.  Michonne was open enough to save Andrea's life, a woman she met lying on the road whose own 'family' had passed on.  That should have been good enough for Andrea.

 

Andrea is the one who failed.  She failed her friend and she failed herself. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by mightysparrow

[kikismom]

That takes the responsibility out of Andrea's hands and makes what happens cold mean Michonne's fault.

 

Andrea was a grown ass woman.  She wasn't a child or a battered woman.  Just because Michonne didn't share at the campfire, or swap stories about her first time (period, kiss, whatever) doesn't make it okay that Andrea dumped her as soon as a better offer came along.  Michonne was open enough to save Andrea's life, a woman she met lying on the road whose own 'family' had passed on.  That should have been good enough for Andrea.

 

Andrea is the one who failed.  She failed her friend and she failed herself. 

it doesn't take responsibility out of Andrea's hands, Andrea is not absolved by Michonne's choices. I said it doesn't make what Andrea did right.

 

You don't have to be a child or a battered woman; I did state that every kind of relationship needs to be mutually affirming or it is going to leave one person's needs unmet.

Michonne doesn't need to swap stories about her first period or her first kiss and Andrea didn't ask.

Andrea didn't know if MIchonne knew her walkers before when they were alive. She didn't know if Michonne had lost family like how Andrea lost Amy. She didn't know why Michonne ended up alone. That was what Michonne knew about her.

 

At no point did I say it was right for Andrea to dump her, I stated clearly that it wasn't.

But I stand by my assertion that while it's wrong for others to do bad things to you, it is less likely to happen if you don't antagonize them.

 

The same thing happened in another way---Rick wanted everyone after the fall of the farm to just go with his plan.

But he didn't tell them all that time about what he knew from the CDC.

He didn't tell them several times when they asked what happened to Shane.

When they ask him questions, he gets very adversarial with them.

When he refuses to let them go a different way, and Maggie asks what they are supposed to do when another herd comes by, he spins around and gives her a look so vicious I'm surprised she didn't slap him.

She had a right to ask. RIck saved a lot of people's lives too; it doesn't take away their right to ask for an equal level of knowledge about what affects both or all of them.

Rick thought keeping them all together should be enough. They didn't think it was enough to be kept together as sheep who have to do what one says but not get told why.

If they make a stupid decision after that---and some of them have---it isn't Rick's fault only.

People are responsible for their choices. When they are wrong, they are wrong.

This isn't about guilt assignment.

It's about preventing something bad for either side of a disagreement to be guilty about in the first place.

I don't want people to do something stupid and get killed, because I care for them.

If they do it anyway I am not to blame for that action.

However if I treated them like the lesser member of the relationship who doesn't deserve to know what's going on as much as I deserve to know, I have to accept a hand in alienating them when I could have had their steadfast trust.

 

If some man came up and said I'll pay all the bills, and you just don't need to know anything more--like if I have kids, if I actually have a job, if I was married before, you don't ask me crap but agree with what I say about where we go and who we talk to and what we do and I'll keep you alive....

...well some women would love that.

I, on the other hand, would tell him to go to the Humane Society and find an abandoned dog if that's what he needs.

 

You can be helpful, in fact a life-saving person---but if you want to be a helpful but secretive person who might share food and medicine but won't share fears and hopes and pains and aspirations---remember that when people aren't hungry or sick they will spend their happier time with someone else.

[Timetoread]

You know the thing is, I don't blame either one of them - though I agree with all that the writing left much to be desired.  I don't blame Andrea for clinging to Woodbury and to the Governor.  He didn't show her his true face and he was a very attractive man - physically attractive and somebody who seemed to be able to provide.  Michonne's reaction DID come off, IMO, as jealousy, more attitude than reason.  Andrea, being who she was, considered herself smart and savvy enough to smell a rat, but she didn't realize that her own needs and fears would betray her instincts.  Michonne, on the other hand, was still in the throes of a pain too deep to be spoken.  All stories led to the one - I was a mother and now my child is dead.  Just typing this, I think it is ironic that she and Gov were mortal enemies because they shared the same pain.  She wasn't open to sharing, so yeah, that can be offputting, but it is worth forgiving when she is a "show not tell" person.  She didn't have to swap dating stories with Andrea to show she cared, she saved her life over and over.  Andrea suspected that the chain walkers "meant something" to Michonne, but Michonne "killed" them without hesitation in order to save her life.  Andrea's wish to believe was understandable, but Michonne deserved more than a brush off when all was said and done.  I juxtapose this with Carl's realization that Michonne was "one of us", not from deep discussion, but from "show not tell."  Makes sense that he was therefore the one she told, when she was ready.

 

But it wasn't choosing Woodbury that made me label Andrea "Worst friend since Elena on TVD", it was after Michonne's fight to the death with Phillip.  My first question to Michonne would be, "Why are you trying to kill him?"  But more dangerously, I'd ask him, gun aimed at his last good eye, "Why are you trying to kill her?"  Michonne was beaten badly, that wasn't self defense, it was kill or be killed, and there is no way I'd spend the night in that man's arms knowing that he fought a female with that level of viciousness.  If that don't trigger your Spideysense, nothing will!

[Nashville]

These are all good, valid points. I've also posted my sadness for Michonne when Andrea chooses Woodbury/The Gov. over her.

 

But re-watching this weekend, I noticed something; Andrea does say to Michonne "You know everything about me." Andrea talks about how she knows nothing about Michonne's life, and MIchonne sort of growls: "You know enough!"

 

I get how MIchonne had traumas. So did Andrea. You can't expect a friend to open up and trust, while you keep the door locked to them. Michonne should have realized that if you won't let someone in, they are going to still have that hunger for closeness and the validation of being trusted by another person with feelings (even if the Governor's feelings werent' sincere.)

You know with spouses, partners, or children,...if you won't give them affection and approval they'll get it from somebody.

Michonne did have feelings of bond with Andrea. But it was still too important to Michonne to keep her own secrets. People will only wait so long. Andrea and Michonne were together for 7-8 months. By that point if someone won't let you in, and the friendship is still one-sided as far as sharing soul confidences----well the other person is going to be real vulnerable to an easier welcome from another source.

That doesn't mean it's right what Andrea did. In fact the Governor used the same tactic as child molesters, con men, black widow killers, and cult leaders. But it doesn't work on people who have their needs met.

 

i can understand how Andrea may have felt slighted by Michonne's lack of confiding - and the lack of trust that implied - but was such an expectation of trust warranted?  Depending upon the personalities involved, trust is not a gift freely given; it must be earned, by repeated demonstrations that one is trustworthy.  Such an expectation might be justified if, after their 7-8 months together, Michonne and Andrea were functioning as equals.  My memory is admittedly fuzzy on the entirety of the Andrea/Michonne post-Farm/pre-Woodbury arc, but I don't recall anything even implying an equitable arrangement; theirs was much more a parent-child relationship than a partner alliance, with Andrea being the child.  And what parent is comfortable discussing their deeply personal issues and baggage with their child?

 

The same thing happened in another way---Rick wanted everyone after the fall of the farm to just go with his plan.

But he didn't tell them all that time about what he knew from the CDC.

 

CDC?  What CDC?  What is CDC?  What are you talking about?    ;>

[mightysparrow]

i can understand how Andrea may have felt slighted by Michonne's lack of confiding - and the lack of trust that implied - but was such an expectation of trust warranted?  Depending upon the personalities involved, trust is not a gift freely given; it must be earned, by repeated demonstrations that one is trustworthy.  Such an expectation might be justified if, after their 7-8 months together, Michonne and Andrea were functioning as equals.  My memory is admittedly fuzzy on the entirety of the Andrea/Michonne post-Farm/pre-Woodbury arc, but I don't recall anything even implying an equitable arrangement; theirs was much more a parent-child relationship than a partner alliance, with Andrea being the child.  And what parent is comfortable discussing their deeply personal issues and baggage with their child?

 

 

CDC?  What CDC?  What is CDC?  What are you talking about?    ;>

 

I agree with this.  Andrea was sick for most of the time she and Michonne were together.  She probably wasn't in any shape to hear Michonne's story.  Sick people can be very egocentric and Andrea was already into Andrea so it would make sense that she spent a lot of time talking about herself.  Michonne probably didn't have a chance to get a word in.  Andrea used the 'you know all about me but I don't know anything about you' as a way to get at Michonne and bring her over to the Woodbury side. 

 

The thing is though, that Andrea and Michonne were more than patient/caregiver.  They were friends. They cared about each other.  They loved each other.

 

In the end, I think Andrea owed Michonne her loyalty.  When a man tries to beat the shit out of my girlfriend, a girlfriend who saved my fucking life?  Not only do I not ask questions, I knee the motherfucker in the balls before I bounce with my girl.  No if, ands or buts. 

[AngelaHunter]

When a man tries to beat the shit out of my girlfriend, a girlfriend who saved my fucking life?

 

To play devil's advocate, he only tried to beat the shit out of her after she re-deadened Penny, which was a deliberate and calculated act of cruelty on Michonne's part after she saw how much Penny meant to the Gov.

 

And I guess I'm the only one who thought Phillip really did have some feelings for Andrea, maybe seeing her as a possible Queen to his King of Woodbury.

[BrokenRemote]

My conclusion at the time was along these lines:

• Michonne rescued Andrea after the Farm's collapse, kept Andrea alive, and nursed Andrea when she got sick to the best of Michonne's ability with the limited available resources.
• When Andrea gets into Woodbury*, however, she is immediately blinded by a view of apparent pre-ZA-ish normality in the lives of the residents and the lies of the Governor - blinded in the sense of "there are none so blind as those who will not see".  Andrea wants the promise of Woodbury to be real, and she wants to immerse herself in that promise.  Andrea's denial of anything which would contradict such an idyllic reality, therefore, is not surprising.
• Michonne sees the same idealized presentation; being a true devotee of the "if it looks too good to be true it probably is" philosophy, however, Michonne doesn't buy what the Governor is selling.
• Michonne tries to get Andrea to acknowledge the inconsistencies - which Andrea, predictably, either tries to rationalize away or downright deny.

 

This is the source of Michonne's behavior.  After supporting (carrying, really) Andrea through several life-threatening situations, Michonne feels Andrea owes at least some serious consideration of Michonne's misgivings.  Andrea can't deliver, however, because to do so would put lie to that which Andrea desperately wants to be true.  This is what we're seeing in Michonne at this point in the series - not jealousy, but distrust (in the Woodbury facade) and frustration (with Andrea).

 

 

* Coincidentally, this was also about the same time as the Governor got into Andrea - but I digress.

But that was my problem--did she really get Andrea to try to acknowledge the inconsistencies?  Or did she just keep saying something wasn't right, while steadfastly refusing to point out those inconsistencies she had blatantly noticed. It was obvious Andrea wasn't seeing what she was seeing.  Would a few words like, 'I saw, x, y and z, and q doesn't feel legit' kill her?  Don't get me wrong, I love Michonne. Now.  But I felt like the show runners were on a fast track to ruining her character at the beginning, because her refusal to speak up at all ever was so not believable.  Now, in hindsight, we can see where they were going, but I still feel they didn't do a good job of bringing that across, and they took way too long to get there.  All we saw, for a year, was this woman who, if she saw a thousand walkers about to eat everyone at the prison, wouldn't open her mouth to say so.

[mightysparrow]

I'm looking forward to the second half of the season because we've been promised more Michonne and that's always a good thing.  Hopefully, Michonne will be able to pass baby-sitting duty to someone else.  Tara and Eugene are both pretty useless; they could do it.  Carol did get into two car accidents within hours and should be recovering but it appears that St. Carol of the ZA has Devine healing powers.

 

Even though 5a was very Michonne-lite (which probably explains why it was so weak), there were some interesting moments, such as her scenes with Father Gabriel. I got a touch of a chem-test with those scenes but it just might be that Danai and Seth are such good actors.  Michonne and Carl know Father G better than anybody and were there when he had his 'come to Jesus' moment.  It would be good to see how Father G progresses and if Michonne and Carl vouch for him.

 

I'd also like to see Michonne get some love.  Comic-book Michonne was quite active and it seems a shame that TV Michonne hasn't had any play, especially since Danai has the hottest ass in the ZA.  Michonne and Tyreese were lovers in the comic but I don't think it's going to happen here.  Since Daryl has taken over many of Tyreese's traits and his spot as Rick's sidekick, it makes sense that he and Michonne get together.  Of course, he's going to have to take a very long and very hot shower first. And do something about that hair.  Michonne always looks relatively fresh so her man should too.

[CletusMusashi]

The only Michonne/Gabriel interaction I want to see is her slapping the shit out of him when she finds out he's been using her katana to shave his head with.

[AngelaHunter]

Michonne always looks relatively fresh so her man should too.

 

She might need to fumigate those dreads first.

[mightysparrow]

A woman as intelligent and resourceful as Michonne would definitely have picked up a few jars of hair grease on her runs. And with her Missoni headband, Michonne manages to look stylish even in the worst situations. Anyone who knows about dreadlocks knows how to care for them. Michonne probably stops by the same salon the other women visit to keep their bobs looking cute.

[Pete Martell]

I'm glad we got to see more of Michonne tonight (even if it still wasn't enough), and that we're continuing to get moments where Michonne is struggling with fights and the grind of it all. She's a person, not a machine, so to see Rick there for her after all she did for him and his children is a good thing. I don't mean in a shipping sense - I'd love it but I know it won't happen - I just mean in a sense of basic treatment as a human being. She shouldn't always have to be badass or be the good soldier. 

 

I also liked her being tired of the endless road to nowhere and wanting to go somewhere, anyway, and Rick respecting her enough to listen and to agree, no muss, no fuss. It tells me that she has a lot of value beyond a sword or babysitting.

 

Danai does so much acting with her eyes, so many quiet moments that help make group scenes feel more believable. 

 

And the camera focusing on her butt as she walked away - well, I guess they know what some fans tune in for.

[CletusMusashi]

I hate them making her the one who pushes for D.C. She is probably the last person on that show who would choose a crowded high-profile city surrounded by swampland to settle down in. If you want to settle down so bad, just do it already. There's fixer-uppers all over the place. But, that's not The Plan. Apparently she's suffering from a very rare type of breakdown that only affects people by causing them to do exactly what the writers have been insisting on for a year anyway. Goodbye, Michonne. Hello, Generic Enabler of Plot Devices.

[Pete Martell]

Every time they find a "fixer-upper" or a new home, it ends terribly. I don't even think she cares about DC, she just wants a set location, and that's pretty much all they have. She wants somewhere to go. Then when they get there, they get there.

[Enero]

Every time they find a "fixer-upper" or a new home, it ends terribly. I don't even think she cares about DC, she just wants a set location, and that's pretty much all they have. She wants somewhere to go. Then when they get there, they get there.

 

Agreed. I think she knows that at this point, no place will be much better than what they've already encountered. But she needs a purpose, a goal, something to hold on to because right now they have nothing to hold on too. As she said, they're basically just wandering around aimlessly - and I'm so with her on this. I feel like this is where the show is as a whole. At this point, there's not much direction.

 

We've seen several characters on this show become weary in this new world of the ZA. Since the fall of the prison it's been one horror after another. It's only natural that Michonne would also, like others, start to feel the weariness of the world.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Enero

[GodsBeloved]

Michonne probably stops by the same salon the other women visit to keep their bobs looking cute.

LOL

[kj4ever]

I hate them making her the one who pushes for D.C. She is probably the last person on that show who would choose a crowded high-profile city surrounded by swampland to settle down in. If you want to settle down so bad, just do it already. There's fixer-uppers all over the place. But, that's not The Plan. Apparently she's suffering from a very rare type of breakdown that only affects people by causing them to do exactly what the writers have been insisting on for a year anyway. Goodbye, Michonne. Hello, Generic Enabler of Plot Devices.

Or perhaps she wants to find some more people because she's sick of being surrounded by morons?

[BrokenRemote]

I hate them making her the one who pushes for D.C. She is probably the last person on that show who would choose a crowded high-profile city surrounded by swampland to settle down in. If you want to settle down so bad, just do it already. There's fixer-uppers all over the place. But, that's not The Plan. Apparently she's suffering from a very rare type of breakdown that only affects people by causing them to do exactly what the writers have been insisting on for a year anyway. Goodbye, Michonne. Hello, Generic Enabler of Plot Devices.

But we don't know that D.C. is going to turn out to be a fiasco.  There are good reasons to go there, too.  Any city is going to have a lot of Walkers--that's the same in Atlanta.  But cities also have more resources (I said in another thread, look what the Grady gang was about to scrounge up).  And if there is anywhere that people are trying to fix things or where information is still available to be found, it'd be D.C. I guess what I'm saying is that D.C. is no worse than any other city, and I don't think it's absolutely 100% going to turn out to be a disaster.

[kikismom]

For all the talk on the show and on the threads about look what happened at previous camp/shelters, I maintain my belief that those places would have been fine if the group didn't carry on like idiots...traveling out and back 5 times a day in high profile trucks cars motorcycles and on horseback...not making any effort to camouflage the places as occupied set-ups, etc.

Even if you are safe inside, it's not a f@&king force-field---the protection doesn't cover you in the outside world.

Right now who cares about whether Washington DC is a place of renewal or anarchy; this bunch could just throw a dart at a map: Okay, Flagstaff Arizona--- let's go fuck that up too.

CDB is like the Octomom of the ZA; let's do something incredibly demanding that human life will depend on...but let's not talk or even think first about why we have been a failure at everything else we've ever done.

[Timetoread]

But we don't know that D.C. is going to turn out to be a fiasco.  There are good reasons to go there, too.  Any city is going to have a lot of Walkers--that's the same in Atlanta.  But cities also have more resources (I said in another thread, look what the Grady gang was about to scrounge up).  And if there is anywhere that people are trying to fix things or where information is still available to be found, it'd be D.C. I guess what I'm saying is that D.C. is no worse than any other city, and I don't think it's absolutely 100% going to turn out to be a disaster.

 

As a current resident of the DC metropolitan area I will tell you that the people aren't very nice, Congress lives here, the traffic makes you both homicidal and suicidal, it's pretty in the spring and, in the event of a zombie apocalypse, this is the place to be.  I support the push for DC.  If some cops set up base in Atlanta, I guarantee you there is a full community of military, scientists, and infrastructure here.  If anything survives a disaster, it will be DC.  Or rather if DC doesn't survive, nothing will.