S02.E08: Episode 8

[TVForever]

3 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

He should be played by someone who oozes worminess.  Someone who you take one look at & just go  . . . EW!  Someone one who looks & acts like Corey Lewandowski.

Okay, wait. I'll be back to post; I'm laughing WAAY too hard right now!!!!

[pasdetrois]

 Honestly, this episode veered so closely into Harlequin Romance territory that I laughed. (Elizabeth appeared to resist, then lustily gave in to her passions.) And sometimes Ross and his merry miners sound like a parody. Aidan Turner can barely keep a straight face.

It's too bad. I really enjoyed the earlier episodes and season.

The actresses who play Elizabeth and Caroline are quite wooden. Morning-after Elizabeth acted like a robot as she sat in her bed.

Edited November 16, 2016 by pasdetrois

[Summer]

Have to agree with that the actress playing Elizabeth,, Heida Reed, just does not work for me.   For me it's the accent. She is from Iceland and I think she struggles with an authentic sounding English accent, she always sounds kind of strange when she speaks and the way she pronounces everything, I dunno, it bugs me.  And that "demure" looking down, then looking up again thing she kept doing with George was grating on me.  

Edited November 16, 2016 by Summer

[ali59]

Quote

Thx for answering my question! I was thinking it had to be more of a mix between a seizure and stroke (which is probably very possible), because I feel like the symptoms (or how it was portrayed) didn't quite line up with it just being a stroke. Like, the mouth being pulled down (after it happened) is a symptom, but usually you can see parts of the face/body going limp/pulling down while the stroke is occuring usually and I think the actress failed at portraying that. She looked more like she was having a seizure.

Just like the song says there are 50 ways to leave your lover, there are lots of ways that strokes manifest themselves.  My husband has had several that never had any outward symptoms that could be seen as he was having the stroke.

 

Ross is a jerk and I loved, loved, loved Demelza's decking of the jerk!  So many people look down on Demelza as that lowly kitchen maid but Ross is the low, bottomfeeder here.

[mojito]

This season's disappointing. I liked Ross because he was such a maverick. Now he's just a risk-taking, arrogant asshole and the series is already tired. The villain is too villainous and the damsel in distress is too predictable and, as always, there's a woman who deserves better than she's getting.

I'm out.

(Mike dropped.)

[HoodlumSheep]

At this point I'm actively rooting for evil, moustache-twirling George. And Nana Poldark. Both of whom I consider to be actively at war with each other at this point. Even if it's just a war of words. 

Actually, now that I think about it, I think the issues I have with this season are the same as I have with Gratchester (another pbs show) currently. A majority of the characters have become so unlikable to the point where I can't even root for them. That goes double for the main character. 

[Cyranetta]

For me what's distressing about Ross' disregard of Demelza (besides her general badass worthiness) is that it emphasizes the whole class difference - it's almost as if he doesn't think that the "lower orders" are subject to the same feelings. His airy assumption that she would make do financially because she was used to it in the previous episode might have been the precursor of this attitude and action in this one.

[dubbel zout]

6 minutes ago, Cyranetta said:

His airy assumption that she would make do financially because she was used to it in the previous episode might have been the precursor of this attitude and action in this one.

Annoyingly, though, he's not wrong. Demelza does know how to take care of herself. She's not afraid to get her hands dirty and do what needs to be done. Elizabeth's survival skills are practically nonexistent.

I don't have a problem with Ross wanting to help Elizabeth. My problem is that he helps her to the detriment of his own wife and child. He owes them his first loyalties.

Edited November 18, 2016 by dubbel zout

[Cyranetta]

Quote

Annoyingly, though, he's not wrong. Demelza does know how to take care of herself. She's not afraid to get her hands dirty and do what needs to be done. Elizabeth's survival skills are practically nonexistent.

I don't have a problem with Ross wanting to help Elizabeth. My problem is when he helps her to the detriment of his own wife and child. He owes them his first loyalties

Oh, I agree absolutely! My distaste is that I get the impression that he's not operating from admiration for Demelza's skill, but simply from tunnel-visioned focus on aristocratically-fragile Elisabeth (and I agree with those who find the earlier version's Elizabeth more representative of aristocratic fragility).

[dubbel zout]

I doubt he'd feel that way about Aunt Poldark, and she's as aristocratic as Elizabeth. (Or so I would expect, especially of that generation.) Of course, you can't separate Elizabeth from her class, as that's a big part of who she is and how she acts. But IMO, it's his messed-up feelings for Elizabeth—with some guilt about Francis thrown in—that's the main driver here.

[ScoobieDoobs]

22 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

At this point I'm actively rooting for evil, moustache-twirling George.

I could root for him too if it weren't for that ridiculously terrible & miscast actor playing him.  He looks like he's too busy blowing kisses at himself in any & all mirrors nearby to do any fun, villainous stuff to dopey d-bag Ross.  And besides, that unpleasant uncle who's always hangin' around him makes me nauseous.  He reminds me of Dick Cheney.

My interest in this show is hanging by a thread.

[maraleia]

On 11/14/2016 at 8:14 AM, dubbel zout said:

 

ETA: Given how edited the sex scene between Ross and Elizabeth was, I'm surprised it even warranted an advisory. 

You mean rape scene correct?

I'm watching so much TV as it is and this episode convinced me that this show isn't worth it. I hate all the characters except for Nana, Demelza, Caroline and Verity so why am I watching.

Edited November 23, 2016 by maraleia

[CTrent29]

Annoyingly, though, he's not wrong. Demelza does know how to take care of herself. She's not afraid to get her hands dirty and do what needs to be done. Elizabeth's survival skills are practically nonexistent.

 

This worship of Demelza is really getting out of hand.  Considering that she was born among the working-class, Demelza could probably get a job as a servant, if she found herself widowed and with no money.  The best Elizabeth could do as a member of the upper-classes, is to become a governess.  And to do so would open up criticism of her role as Geoffrey Charles' mother, because no employer would tolerate her spending more time with her son, instead of their offspring.  But other than becoming a servant, prostitute or shop girl for that matter; Demelza would be just as screwed as Elizabeth.

 

THIS STORY IS NOT SET IN THE EARLY 21st CENTURY.  Yet, the way fans continue to criticize Elizabeth for being "useless" and worship Demelza, many of them seemed to think that it is.  They seem completely unaware of the realities of what life can offer for a woman - especially one who is not financially secure - in the 18th century.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, maraleia said:

On 11/14/2016 at 9:14 AM, dubbel zout said:

ETA: Given how edited the sex scene between Ross and Elizabeth was, I'm surprised it even warranted an advisory. 

You mean rape scene correct?

The way it was edited it didn't look like rape to me. I'm not happy about that, btw. If the intent was to show Ross raping Elizabeth, that should have been less ambiguous. And there's also the problematic

flashback to it that Elizabeth has in the next episode, where she seems to have enjoyed her night with Ross.

Ugh.

7 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

THIS STORY IS NOT SET IN THE EARLY 21st CENTURY.  Yet, the way fans continue to criticize Elizabeth for being "useless" and worship Demelza, many of them seemed to think that it is.  They seem completely unaware of the realities of what life can offer for a woman - especially one who is not financially secure - in the 18th century.

Since you quoted my post, I'm going to answer. I am not unaware of the realities of life for women in the 18th century. Women were totally dependent on men for their livelihoods. I get that. But that doesn't mean they were helpless kittens. Elizabeth could read, which put her ahead of a lot of her sisters. She wasn't stupid. She could have had an ally in Aunt Poldark had she chosen. But she didn't.

[magdalene]

Is Elizabeth supposed to be likable in the books? I just don't like her in either the old or the new show.  She has always had it easy and yet she is never satisfied. She is passive in a way that I find irritating.  She slept with a married man without any regard for how this would hurt the wife - the wife who had shown her a great kindness and sacrifice in the past. 

It isn't just that I like Demelza better than her. I like every single other woman on the show much better than Elizabeth.  Caroline. Verity. Nana Poldark.  They are all so much better than Elizabeth as human beings.

[Arwen Evenstar]

On 11/23/2016 at 4:57 PM, magdalene said:

Is Elizabeth supposed to be likable in the books? I just don't like her in either the old or the new show.  She has always had it easy and yet she is never satisfied. She is passive in a way that I find irritating.  She slept with a married man without any regard for how this would hurt the wife - the wife who had shown her a great kindness and sacrifice in the past. 

It isn't just that I like Demelza better than her. I like every single other woman on the show much better than Elizabeth.  Caroline. Verity. Nana Poldark.  They are all so much better than Elizabeth as human beings.

I hear that the books don't make her particularly likeable.  She's into money and societal position above all else, by my reckoning. But then, being part of the aristocracy teaches that, so she can't really be faulted for the learned behavior that her class expects of her.  Just from watching Downton Abbey, basically we know all these noble women ever really did was change dress numerous times of day, do embroidery, and receive and make social calls. They must have been bored out of their skulls all day long.

 Ross was judged harshly for his marriage to his scullery maid and likely so was Verity for eloping with a man her family did not believe to be a good match for her. Though a sea captain and naval officer would have been a decent and respectable catch for a long in the tooth spinster of a family of some means, the shadow surrounding the circumstances of his wife's death did not make him look good. Elizabeth was expected to marry a wealthy bachelor or widower. She also knew she had to remarry quickly since she must have suspected she might have already been impregnated by Ross.  She couldn't be living openly with a man known to be married to another and divorces were still difficult to get in 18th century England. It just wasn't done in what were the social mores of the times. Marriage was contracted mostly to keep blue blood and money together, not love. That's what adultery was for, and was tolerated by both spouses on the proviso that all parties were discreet.

Caroline and Dr Enys were another mismatched pair, even though a doctor was considered respectable indeed.

Demelza seems to be a better match in temperament  with Ross in comparison to the fragile, vapid Elizabeth.  I'm sure Ross, Demelza, and Elizabeth knew that.

[LJones41]

On 11/23/2016 at 6:06 AM, dubbel zout said:

The way it was edited it didn't look like rape to me. I'm not happy about that, btw. If the intent was to show Ross raping Elizabeth, that should have been less ambiguous. And there's also the problematic

  Reveal hidden contents

flashback to it that Elizabeth has in the next episode, where she seems to have enjoyed her night with Ross.

Ugh.

Since you quoted my post, I'm going to answer. I am not unaware of the realities of life for women in the 18th century. Women were totally dependent on men for their livelihoods. I get that. But that doesn't mean they were helpless kittens. Elizabeth could read, which put her ahead of a lot of her sisters. She wasn't stupid. She could have had an ally in Aunt Poldark had she chosen. But she didn't.

If Elizabeth can read and write, then she would have been eligible to become a governess.  Which is great, except that she is also the mother of a nine year-old.  I doubt she would have an easy time in finding employers who would tolerate her acting as governess to their children and spending a good amount of time with Geoffrey Charles simultaneosly . . . especially in the 18th century.  And how in the hell could a woman like Agatha help her?   She knows nothing about managing an estate, let alone a mine?

Has anyone ever taught Elizabeth on how to maintain both an estate and a mine?  No?  She could have dealt with it, if she had the money to hire a competent estate manager.  Caroline had the money to do this.  If Demelza had been widowed by Ross, while they were still in financial straits, she would have been in serious trouble.  As someone born within the working classes, she could have found a job as a housekeeper or maid.  Or perhaps could have found a job as a governess, like Elizabeth, since she knows how to read and write.  But managing Nampara and Ross' mine?  She would have been as helpless as Elizabeth without the money to find a good estate manager.

 

 

Quote

Is Elizabeth supposed to be likable in the books? I just don't like her in either the old or the new show.  She has always had it easy and yet she is never satisfied. She is passive in a way that I find irritating.  She slept with a married man without any regard for how this would hurt the wife - the wife who had shown her a great kindness and sacrifice in the past. 

 

She was raped by a married man.  The only person I blame is Ross, because he was too emotionally unstable to deal with his feelings for her.  I knew this would happen.  I knew that if Horsfield had attempted to make any changes to that scene between Ross and Elizabeth - you know, adding a "last minute" consent on Elizabeth's behalf and feeding some sick "rape fantasy" scenario in the process - would lead to her being slut shamed by fans.  And now it's happening, because many cannot deal with the idea that Ross had remained in love with her.

Edited November 30, 2016 by LJones41

[rove4]

On 30/11/2016 at 7:32 PM, LJones41 said:

She was raped by a married man.  The only person I blame is Ross, because he was too emotionally unstable to deal with his feelings for her.  I knew this would happen.  I knew that if Horsfield had attempted to make any changes to that scene between Ross and Elizabeth - you know, adding a "last minute" consent on Elizabeth's behalf and feeding some sick "rape fantasy" scenario in the process - would lead to her being slut shamed by fans.  And now it's happening, because many cannot deal with the idea that Ross had remained in love with her.

Spoiler

From my perspective, the scene in the books was ambiguous at best. Some readers claim it was rape, some say it was consensual (and reading Elizabeth's thoughts about the incident in later books seems to support this). The author's son has come out and said that the scene as written was never intended to convey rape, that it was two people giving in to long repressed feelings.  Do I think that perhaps both the books and the show play into some old romantic tropes about the woman paying superficial lip service to saying "no" because she feels she should while deep down really wanting the intimacy with a man she's long desired? Absolutely.  Although, it's really not an old romantic trope. Currently published books in the romance genre are full of this stuff.

Edited March 5, 2017 by SilverStormm
Book talk spoiler tagged.

[CTrent29]

Spoiler

Graham had pretty much confirmed in later novels that Ross had raped Elizabeth.

 

This is a problem I have with fans of either novels, movies and television shows.  When a major or leading protagonist commit a truly terrible or monstrous act, a lot of fans go out of their way to excuse that protagonist behavior or try to convince themselves or others that the protagonist had done nothing wrong.  Or they try to pretend that the protagonist is not really capable of such an act.  

Spoiler

I had come across an essay called "The Trial of Elizabeth Poldark", which not only pointed out that novels like "Warleggan", "The Four Swans" and "The Loving Cup" had confirmed that what happened that night in May 1793 was rape, but also that Ross refused to fully acknowledge that what he had done was wrong.  The writer also pointed out that Debbie Horsfield's attempts to extend the blame to Elizabeth via the last minute act of consent and her confrontations with Demelza were at best, "spiteful".

 

Spoiler

And while some have criticized Horsfield's adaptation of "Warleggan" - and rightfully so, I have also included the 1975 adaptation of my criticism.

 Although the 70s adaptation were willing to show Ross and Elizabeth's encounter as rape on his part, producers Anthony Coburn and Morris Barry transformed Elizabeth into an ultra-Bitch in order to justify Ross' rape of her.  Then, they were the ones who originally conjured the whole "riot at Trenwith" nonsense in order to restore Ross' heroic reputation. 

 

Instead of accepting Ross as the complex and ambiguous character that he truly is, a lot of fans seemed to view him as some kind of romance novel hero.  And I don't recall Winston Graham being a writer of romance novels.

Edited March 5, 2017 by SilverStormm
Book talk spoiler tagged.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please remember to spoiler tag book talk in episode topics.

Thanks.

[Iju]

i remember watching "it" happen for the first time and hated it and i hate it now (albeit, i started the show in january and finished a couple months ago). i couldn't believe what i was seeing. ross and liz were THE pining trope couple of the show, complete with complexities, layers and tragedy. and then they end up in a mess like this. their love story, their struggle to do what was right and always end up falling on their faces when they do, was a delight and painful thing to see. there were almost 2 entire seasons of buildup and we get the travesty that has ruined ross and liz forever. 

moreover, the timing even of it before it happened just....so awkward. that's why i couldn't believe i was watching the pseduo affair. someone just died at ross' mine and his wife is comforting him and then 2 scenes later he's going to town on liz??? it doesn't line up and it never will. even though ross and liz were working to this line from episode one, it was this scene that felt out of nowhere. there were too many intense scenes to just shove one of the biggest love stories in the show smooshed at the end. just what was anyone thinking???? we're not even going to get into the fact that this is SEASON TWO, and ross and liz' love story - love them or hate them - are one of the main pulls of the show. and it ends so soon and so abruptly???

then there's the scene at hand which was "toned down" but honestly who the heck cares. the scene needed to be trashed entirely for something far more consensual to place no doubts in anyone's minds. if your fans are divided on if your love scene is rape or not you did it disastrously wrong. you mean to tell me after 2 seasons (and canonically, around what, 13 years?), all this pining, hidden looks and restrained feelings ended in the most basic way possible? even though heida and aiden said they rehearsed many different scenes, it was still based off the books which i feel shouldn't have even been on the writing table at that point. debbie said that she decided to change TV liz because the books was unlikable. okay, i don't really have anything else but her word to get on that because i haven't read a single book. so why would TV liz do something book liz would do, making her send the letter in such a manipulative light? would it really be that hard to make a scene where ross and liz are both in an emotional state where they are in the weakest in their lives and finally give into selfishness? i can think of at least 4 different better and cleaner scenarios when that could have happened. but no, the "affair" has to be the dumbest, cheapest and laziest writing imaginable. everything was going so well too, and the timing of every event (ross/liz connected or not) felt natural. and then ep 8 has to ruin everything and rush because there's only 2 episodes left. it wouldn't have been a struggle to keep trailing ross and liz' love story into the early third season (where it is more appropriate for them to reach a conclusion/apex) and then approach the aftermath in the middle of the season. 

finally, there's the complete and utter cruelty in all of it. ross leaves in the evening and then comes back early the next day. i know ross is deplorable in his love life but it's hard for even me to stomach he would do something so completely heartless to mella, to have her know without a doubt he's rolling around with liz for literal hours in her house. that's why the scene should have been scrapped. in the books, it's more clear it's rape so it makes sense ross would do something like that because he was in a rage. but to try to convince the audience it was just a cute little love scene with that much cruelty tied to it is just horrific. ross and liz deserved better and mella certainly did as well. 

On 11/14/2016 at 1:00 PM, ScoobieDoobs said:

Fail, PBS.  For whatever their reason, PBS gave us a distorted version of this show, by cutting out Elizabeth's very clear objections to Ross's advances.  The original version looked like rape.  

In the edited version we got, Ross is merely an adulterer -- with Elizabeth as a very willing participant in the adultery.  In the original version shown in the UK, as meant by the show's producers, Ross takes her, ignores her objections & arrogantly states she wants him as badly as he wants her.  Uh, sounds like rape to me.  Not much ambiguous about it.  

So in our version, Ross is a creep & a cheater, who casually cheats without caring a bit that his wife knows.  In the UK version, Ross is a creep & a rapist, who takes a woman he wants, when he wants because he feels he owns her & has a right to control her.

Actually, I'm not making a judgement on Ross here.  He is reflective of a character in the 18th century & written in a novel published in 1945.  So maybe using rape as a romantic shtick was acceptable back then.  I'm annoyed with PBS for altering the scene so the context was completely different than what was intended by the producers of the show.  It drastically alters our perception of Ross.

wait a minute, you're telling me the PBS version (the one that's only available for me) was censored? the UK version is even worse? because i do not remember those lines at all, him telling liz he knows she wants it (WHAT THE HECK???). but you know what? it makes sense. watching the scene, there were cuts of moments that felt awkward to me. but i've noticed that poldark has had editing issues since day 1 so i didn't think much of it. but now that you mention i may have gotten a censored version, i wonder....

Edited June 26, 2022 by Iju