S02.E03: Series 2 Episode 3

[Cranberry]

Quote

Athena travels to the UK and her tragic secret is revealed. Niska's consciousness assessments begin. With more time at home Joe notices Sophie's increasingly eccentric behaviour. As Karen returns to work with Pete, cracks start appearing in their relationship. The Synths are forced to leave their hideout but Mia shocks them with a huge decision.

[John Potts]

It's funny the way that my attitude to Niska and Mia have flipped: last Season, Mia was my favourite and Niska was my least favourite, but in Season 2 the situation has flipped. I think it's because although the Synths are supposed to be acting "human", I want them to do it in a "non-human" way. I floved Niska's "You're casually cruel to those around you but cry over the picture of a baby you don't know," because it shows that while she may be able to feel, she doesn't feel the same way we do (and we have our second week running of humans blackmailing each other to get what they want to make her point). But Mia's "What is this thing called love?" was such a cliché. I was actually wondering WHY she couldn't look at the café owner (OK, I guess she's "Really feeling" the way a human would, but he doesn't have to do it THE SAME way we do).

OK, so we're finally getting some backstory to Dr Athena Morrow (Carrie Anne Moss), which I guess makes her more sympathetic (or at least understandable), but I was having real trouble working out (until it was spelt out) how all the Morrows were related, since Vee looked lie her sister (or lover) rather than daughter and her (I presume ex-)husband looked old enough to be her father. It is true to life that men DO marry women young enough to be their daughters, but it did confuse me for a while.

I'm wondering if there is any point to the "Synthie" at the Hawkins' son's school - it seems just thrown in to give him something to do. Both his sisters' plots are way more interesting and actually seem to be going somewhere.

Glad they've kept in the moments of humour, too - couldn't help laughing at the cop-Synth throwing up and it provides a perfect excuse for taking her home (even if it could be serious). Though you'd think them having an affair would be an open secret (as her colleague noted, they are detectives!).

Edited November 14, 2016 by John Potts

[NorthstarATL]

I've always liked Niska, and I appreciated her view on us human folk. I agree about Mia. I can get behind the whole "caring for" thing because there are emotional and intellectual reasons for attachments, but the "falling in love" thing calls into question the fact that there are biological reasons as to why we react sexually to each other, and I don't see how triggering consciousness somehow adds that component. It just seems "off" to me.

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

I'm wondering if there is any point to the "Synthie" at the Hawkins' son's school - it seems just thrown in to give him something to do. Both his sisters' plots are way more interesting and actually seem to be going somewhere.

I may have missed the story behind her. Was there supposed to be a movement, sort of like the mannequin challenge, where there are kids pretending to be synths just because? I think that's what Sophie was doing. I don't get why a synth would be at school in the first place, unless it's a synth teacher. I assume there are synths created at different ages, but that they would not need an education in the same way that we do.

[John Potts]

6 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Was there supposed to be a movement, sort of like the mannequin challenge, where there are kids pretending to be synths just because?

Pretty much (essentially what Sophie is showing). I'm hoping she doesn't turn out actually be a Synth, but really IS a person (I can't remember if they're actually called Synthies, but it was something like that).

[Which Tyler]

The girl at school is a real person who's name they knew before she started acting this way (IIRC).

I'm guessing that it's to give Toby some insight into what Sophie is doing, and help the family out that way, with some insight.

[Snarkette]

I don't get what Mia sees in Gunnar-from-Nashville. He's shown no heroic qualities, no extraordinary kindness, no particular interests or inner life. All he seems to have is hair volumizer and a mother who is devolving intellectually just as Milliken did in series one. Mia-as-Anita was wonderful. Mia-as-Mia bores me to tears. She doesn't even have meaningful conflict with the much overlooked Leo this series.

[Cranberry]

Yeah, Mia is boring me this season. Gunnar (I haven't even been bothered to learn his name on this show) seems like a nice enough guy, but right now I don't know what she sees in him besides a sad puppy who needs her help. They can't have had any deep discussions when she was pretending to be a normal synth. I was also certain that he was going to assume she was one of those Synthies, the humans who pretend to be synths, but no, he immediately accepted that she's conscious!

Niska's still awesome, and I'm anxious to see what happens if (when?) Laura brings Astrid in.

I also still like Mattie, and I'm so glad the show brought Odi back! All in all, I think the writers are doing a really good job of keeping the Hawkins family relevant (well, aside from poor Toby, but even his story rings true -- after how much he ogled Mia last season, I can buy that he's attracted to synths and people who pretend to be them).

[Snarkette]

Odi and Niska are perfect and Mattie has won me over.

[Which Tyler]

7 hours ago, Cranberry said:

They can't have had any deep discussions when she was pretending to be a normal synth. I was also certain that he was going to assume she was one of those Synthies, the humans who pretend to be synths, but no, he immediately accepted that she's conscious!

Pretty sure the synthies would still have red blood, not blue - and it appears that they're not well known about yet. Joe has noticed Sophie, but doesn't know what's going on; and Toby has to ask about the girl at school; and... that's all we've seen, no adults, and one kid at achool who knows what's going on.

[Cranberry]

Ah, did Mia cut herself? I thought she'd touched her hand to the hot grill and jumped in pain. Blue blood would definitely be a giveaway!

[Which Tyler]

I'm sure I saw blue on her hand; but I reserve the right to be wrong (as a married man, I ALWAYS reserve this right).

[henripootel]

On 11/14/2016 at 10:22 AM, NorthstarATL said:

I can get behind the whole "caring for" thing because there are emotional and intellectual reasons for attachments, but the "falling in love" thing calls into question the fact that there are biological reasons as to why we react sexually to each other, and I don't see how triggering consciousness somehow adds that component. It just seems "off" to me.

This has been my problem from the start.  One of big reasons I'm finding this show less than spell-binding is that there's essentially one flavor of being here - human.  The presumption seems to be, as it so often is, that 'intelligence' basically means 'human intelligence', if imperfectly in Mia (who lacks experience is thus a 'human child'), Odie (who's damaged and so a 'mentally-handicapped human'), or Niska (who's murderous, so obviously a 'human psychopath').  

The only real source of drama here is that some actual humans miss the point that the conscious synths are obviously 'human', if constructed.  They're so human they don't even qualify for the old "Is this what you Hoo-mans call ... 'love'?" trope.  They're smart so they must be subject to the same 'feelings' that all humans are, right?  I think the writers took the easy path here and it's to the show's detriment.

[Snarkette]

That's why I loved the parent-child love between Mia and Leo. It made sense. I also liked the Karen relationship because it made sense -- partners.

Mia and Gunnar, I just don't get. It seems off-track.

[Which Tyler]

13 hours ago, henripootel said:

This has been my problem from the start.  One of big reasons I'm finding this show less than spell-binding is that there's essentially one flavor of being here - human.  The presumption seems to be, as it so often is, that 'intelligence' basically means 'human intelligence', if imperfectly in Mia (who lacks experience is thus a 'human child'), Odie (who's damaged and so a 'mentally-handicapped human'), or Niska (who's murderous, so obviously a 'human psychopath').  

The only real source of drama here is that some actual humans miss the point that the conscious synths are obviously 'human', if constructed.  They're so human they don't even qualify for the old "Is this what you Hoo-mans call ... 'love'?" trope.  They're smart so they must be subject to the same 'feelings' that all humans are, right?  I think the writers took the easy path here and it's to the show's detriment.

I THINK they're beginning to change that this season though. Specifically with Niska going through these tests of emotion and showing none for images of cutsie crap that mean nothing to her as a non-human - yet we know that she is sentient and emotional. It's not trying to show that she's a psychopath, but that she's sentient and emotional, but thinks that human babies are ugly little shrivelled things, with no particular connection to her or her emotions.

[henripootel]

5 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

It's not trying to show that she's a psychopath, but that she's sentient and emotional, but thinks that human babies are ugly little shrivelled things, with no particular connection to her or her emotions.

But this is predicated on the notion that 'sentient' and 'emotional' go hand in hand, and having some sort of emotional reaction would be an indication of sentience.  On top of this, that she'd have an emotional reaction to things humans are built to have emotional reactions to, and that the reactions would be measurable in a way that works with human subjects.  They're simply testing to see if she's a carbon-copy (albeit an flawed one) of a human, not that she's sentient and deserving of some consideration reserved for sentient beings.  It's par for the course for bad science fiction but that doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense.  

Might as well just have a guy in a while lab coat hand her a puppy while a voice asks 'would you like to pet this puppy?  All hoo-mans love puppy', and when she says 'well, I'm more of a cat person ...', flash up NOT HOO-MAN! in big red letters.  It'd be just as 'scientific'.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by henripootel

[Cranberry]

Isn't that the point, though? We're supposed to find the tests these people are doing on Niska ridiculous, because there's so much more to consciousness than sniffling over a "cute" baby. These humans are woefully unprepared for even recognizing conscious synths, let alone dealing with them.

[John Potts]

What's disappointing me about this season (so far) is that it's essentially a re-tread of Data's quest for humanity on ST-TNG (20+ years ago!). I'm reminded of Data going "I find that my responses require less cognitive memory wen you're around, Geordi". "I'm fond of you too, Data!" (that's not an exact quote - I'm not that anal!), which was a nice way of showing that while Data had something that approximated to human emotion, he didn't process them in the same way we do ("In Theory" would be another example, where Data tries to pursue a romantic relationship with some random Ensign). And Niska's story reminds me of the story "Descent", where Data suddenly experiences emotions - but only of hatred and sadism and "Measure of a Man" where Data I put on trial to see whether he possessed Human (well, Sentient Being) Rights.

[henripootel]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:39 AM, John Potts said:

("In Theory" would be another example, where Data tries to pursue a romantic relationship with some random Ensign)

I honestly think they did it better back then.  They didn't make any bones about the fact that Data's lack of 'humanness' had nothing to do with his being sentient.  It was his own goal to be more human (and you can take issues with that notion), but humanity wasn't the beat-out end-all of intellectual attainment.  

And not for nothing but I found the end of 'In Theory' simply heart-rending, mostly for the way they drove home that Data really is sentient but really isn't human.  When he finds out that the Ensign is no longer interested in a romantic relationship, he simply deletes those subroutines.  And that's it, that's the end of it for him, one solid line of dialogue and they demonstrate the stark realities of being a constructed being.  Data can simply remove the patterns from himself and move on, totally missing the fact that a big part of being human is being unable to do this very thing, much as we might wish to.  This did what all good science fiction does; use a fictional device to throw human nature into sharp relief.  I actually think I learned something about people watching this episode.

That's kinda my problem with Humans - they're not really shedding any light on what it means to be human.  The synths are so obviously sentient (and obviously human) that you'd have to be a bit of a monster to deny them this.  They take offense at things humans do, they feel loyalty, they're attracted to hunky guys.  What's left to explore?  That humans can be assholes to other 'humans'?  It's not an uninteresting point but I was hoping for more here.  Just to draw a contrast, I'd highly recommend watching the series this was taken from, äkta människor, which is vastly more complicated in this regard. 

[Primetimer]

Let's rank where some of the show's key relationships stand, three episodes into the season.

View the full article

[Lingo]

OK, someone who's watched both English and American versions (if anyone), tell me what they cut please! Like Max's wink shown in the recap (I don't remember that).

It sounds like Max and Hester had some more philosophical discussions I was not privy to. If they keep cutting out all of her dialogue, it'll be a grave disservice to her character (not to mention Max's). And the Odi plotline seemed really chopped up as well, although maybe it was the same in the original too.

Yeah, I don't care for Mia and Ed's relationship either.

Are we supposed to care and sympathize with these "Synthies", these people pretending to be synthetics? Why? Like Toby's classmate here. Isn't she basically the Rachel Dolezal in this scenario? It's pretty rich that they cast a black actress to play her.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Lingo

[Quilt Fairy]

It makes no sense to me that Joe's company would replace him with a synth as a supervisor, but is perfectly OK with having humans doing menial grunt work like checking boxes.

[shrewd.buddha]

The first season had some interesting ideas, but season two has decidedly turned into a soap opera - the same cast of characters with new 'situations'.  There are about eight or nine different stories going on, but only one or two that seem interesting. 
And wasn't Karen , the police synth, killing other synths at the end of season one? 

Poor Mia/Anita ... somehow she's attained biological feelings of attraction and the first person she falls for is some guy with great hair and a lousy job. She abandons Leo's cause to help other awakened synths in order to pursue 'love' - - not exactly making a case for AI intellectual superiority. The show could make some distinction between physical, emotional or intellectual attraction - but it wants to have people kissing.

And Max isn't smart enough to know that if you release someone from your hideout, he's pretty likely to tell people where he was kept prisoner? 

The reason I'm giving up on the series is basically because the writers are only interested in the 'drama' elements of the soap opera to the point of ignoring all the smaller, logical details. (That and the fact that the show is basically centered around people having sex with robots.)

• How did technology jump past self-driving cars and C3PO type robots straight to fully functional sexbots who are only discernible from humans because of their eye color, bad haircuts and stiff movements?
• The synth skin is human enough to fool people, but it doesn't degrade when you leave it outside in a robot dump site? (ep #2)  If nothing else, people don't leave shoes and clothes on mannequins if they are leaving them exposed to the elements outside. 
• Leo and company abandon their hideout with only the clothes on their backs, apparently leaving all their equipment behind - - things that could easily give details to everything they have been working on. And you can imagine they will land in a new place that is magically set up for their needs. 
• Who would build a synth robot that is less technologically capable than a smartphone? No built-in access to the internet? You can't ask Anita what is a good substitute for butter or how many cups are in a gallon? Does a synth have to use a phone to call its owner?

Edited February 28, 2017 by shrewd.buddha

[Eulipian 5k]

The "Why don't you share" question from Season 1 seems to suggest they are all on some network with other Synths they are near to. Eva, from Ex Machina, was using the entire Google style database as the source of her AI so I guess they are always accessing the Cloud all the time like an iPhone.

[GenieinTX]

Niska also had a romance, let's not forget.  So they have shown both Niska and Mia to have sexual feelings for a human.  Maybe for them it's more of the "I need you to love me, I need you to want me" thing than a biological sexual response.  I'm going to be open about it.  But that's just because I think Gunnar is super hot.  ::shallow::

However, I don't see why Gunnar would want Mia back.  I could see maybe if he had some time to get used to a feeling synth, but that was way too quick.  He got over that whole "I have feelings for a Synth" thing pretty fast.  There may be something there to be concerned about.   Somehow I don't see the show giving Mia a happy relationship for long.

And Leo, I think he is VASTLY underused.  This should be his story more than the family's story I think.  I need more of the focus to be on him.  But I guess there are just too many characters. 

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, as much as I love Gemma Chan, I'm not feeling this whole "Mia falls in love" arc.  A lot of it just feels rush (seriously, I didn't even realize his name was Ed.  He's still just Gunnar to me), and while Sam Palladio is likable enough, he hasn't done anything really significant that can be Mia falling for him enough, to separated herself from Leo, Max, and her cause.  Really, after everything it took for them to reunite last season, it really feels strange seeing Mia and Leo separate this quickly.  They seemed to have an almost unshakable bond back then, and now they're suddenly on different paths.

The Niska stuff is interesting, but how do they really determine if a Synth is able to consciousness?  It certainly isn't these current tests, because as Niska pretty much said, just someone doesn't react to videos of babies, etc., doesn't mean they're not consciousness.  Even certain humans would react the same way Niska did.

It is kind of weird that Joe's company has apparently decided to have a Synth be the manager, but apparently still allow humans to be regular workers.

Pete and Karen's new investigation seems to be leading them back into the main story!

Mattie and Odid continues to be an interesting development.

Athena has a daughter who is braindead?  So, I'm guessing this whole A.I. thing she is working for is to help "bring her daughter back"?  Oh, and it looks like her new office is right near that Silo that Leo, Max, and Hester are trying to get to.  This should be fun!

[scrb]

Well they're taking  huge poetic license, first with human-like robots and then with the proposition that one revision of software gives them the full range of human emotions, from murderous rage to romantic love.

Essentially Westworld covered the same territory, though in that case, the emotion widely expressed by those hosts is desire for vengeance at being mistreated, abused.  So not unlike the situation Niska was in before she commits murder.

I don't think they're trying to show how robots can plausibly gain humanity -- sentience, emotions -- as if humanity will have to face these issues in some not too distant future.  The conceit is that the scientist who invented the synths has conferred humanity on his creations and from that point forward, we are witnessing characters who are fully human.  It's suppose to be a given so Mia is human as far as the show is concerned and she can feel love and sexual desire, even if she and other synths can't reproduce.

Why did she fall for that guy?  Do people always know or can articulate why they're attracted to a particular person?  She says she's thinking about him (presumably can't stop thinking about him) and says he makes things bigger and brighter.  Maybe not the most poetic expression of attraction but it kind of sounds like the real thing.

[Lingo]

On 2/28/2017 at 1:01 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

It makes no sense to me that Joe's company would replace him with a synth as a supervisor, but is perfectly OK with having humans doing menial grunt work like checking boxes.

Well, who gets paid more, the box checker or the supervisor? So if a company is being forced or incentivized to employ humans, it'd make sense from the company's perspective to replace the expensive managers with synths, and keep the humans in the lowest-wage positions (sadly).

[Quilt Fairy]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:24 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

And Max isn't smart enough to know that if you release someone from your hideout, he's pretty likely to tell people where he was kept prisoner? 

Max wasn't built to be the smart one, although I agree he should be smart enough to realize that.

[Clanstarling]

On 3/2/2017 at 9:57 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Max wasn't built to be the smart one, although I agree he should be smart enough to realize that.

This lines up with something I've just begun to think about. That Elster deliberately created each of the original conscious synths with specific dominant character traits to help raise his son. Max is the loving heart, the good angel. Mia is the nurturer. Niska the fierce protector (maybe the "bad" angel). I don't remember Fred well enough to remember what his dominant personality was.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Max. Mia JUST told Leo about two seconds ago to listen to Max and Leo walks about five steps and ignores what Max says. Interesting that Hester is letting Max take all the blame and not telling Leo that she killed that guy.

I like that Pete is being so accepting and supportive of Karen being a conscious synth who is pretending to be human. Who would have guessed that back in S1?

On 3/1/2017 at 12:54 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Athena has a daughter who is braindead?  So, I'm guessing this whole A.I. thing she is working for is to help "bring her daughter back"?  Oh, and it looks like her new office is right near that Silo that Leo, Max, and Hester are trying to get to.  

And V's one waterfall is the one that Athena visited with Ginny so it sounds like she's already started putting some of Ginny's memories into V. That definitely explains why Athena was so determined to see if she could load V into one of the conscious synths in the previous episode. If she succeeds, she will have a version of her daughter back.

On 2/27/2017 at 10:01 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

It makes no sense to me that Joe's company would replace him with a synth as a supervisor, but is perfectly OK with having humans doing menial grunt work like checking boxes.

That made no sense to me either!

Edited September 29, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo