Carol: One Day You Just Change

[Ocean Chick]

As to the mess in Karen's cell, MMB explained on TTD that when she saw the state of the cell, she and Scott talked about it and thought that Karen and David were MUCH sicker than the last time we'd seen them, and that Karen had trashed her own cell as she fought to breathe.  Which is why Carol told Rick that they would have drowned soon if she hadn't put them out of their misery.  And also explained why so much blood was found at the site - Karen and David were actively bleeding (probably spitting out blood) at the time.

 

Yeah, Carol is still mourning Lizzie and Mika, who only had died the day before.  She needs a chance to recover from that before she can accept forgiveness and also forgive herself for not realizing how sick Lizzie was.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I don't think the issue is so much Karvid, but Lizzie and Mika

 

Oh, I completely agree. It's just that most of the gang who are all "buck up, Carol! We want you around!"  are only referring to K&D. They don't know about the girls and I can't help but wonder whether Carol feels that the welcome mat would roll right back up if they knew.

 

 

As to the mess in Karen's cell, MMB explained on TTD that when she saw the state of the cell, she and Scott talked about it and thought that Karen and David were MUCH sicker than the last time we'd seen them, and that Karen had trashed her own cell as she fought to breathe.

 

Grr. Really wished they'd mentioned that when she was defending herself to Rick. Her saying "they would have drowned in their own blood" reads to me as her assuming/predicting their fate. Why didn't they have her say "when I went to check on them, they'd trashed their cells in their panic and confusion, blood was everywhere...they were bleeding out. They were drowning in their own blood". The line is about three seconds longer than what we got but it makes a WORLD of difference, IMO.

Edited October 21, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[lulee]

Grr. Really wished they'd mentioned that when she was defending herself to Rick. Her saying "they would have drowned in their own blood" reads to me as her assuming/predicting their fate. Why didn't they have her say "when I went to check on them, they'd trashed their cells in their panic and confusion, blood was everywhere...they were bleeding out. They were drowning in their own blood". The line is about three seconds longer than what we got but it makes a WORLD of difference, IMO.

I agree. If they would have given her that line in conversation with Rick, it would have made that part of her actions more believable. Adding that information does not negate at all her flaws/sins/errors of judgment of her decision making prior to the mercy killings (acting secretly, in a maverick manner, without consulting anyone beforehand; the "playing God" in the decision and disrespecting/ ignoring others' legitimate voice in the decision) or afterward (e.g., failing to immediately acknowledge what she'd done, resulting in paranoia, accusations, and anger).

 

I suspect that the "problem" from the writers' perspective was probably that if Carol's killings of Karvid are posed as mercy killings of two people imminently dying, then Rick would look less justified (but not fully unjustified) in saying he didn't trust her around his kids, locking her out of the car to return to the prison, etc. So the writers gave less explanation and upped the conflict.

[RainOnToosdays]

I am firmly in the camp that doesn't think Carol killed Karen & David, for all the same reasons already mentioned.

I think Lizzie did it and Carol was covering for her, but she wasn't totally sure herself it was Lizzie until the events at the Grove. I think Carol's expressions when Lizzie was playing with the Walker and when she killed Mika - horror and confusion and sadness and regret all mixed up  (McBride is awesome!) - were not just because of the current situations but because it cemented for her that yeah, Lizzie really did do Karen & David too. Coming to that realization, without any more doubts, is what made it easy (and I use that word very lightly) for her to kill Lizzie. She then falsely confessed to Tyrese because she is a caring person and she wanted to comfort him with the knowledge that Karen didn't suffer (even though a lie). I think at that point she was so distraught and without hope that she was OK with dying herself thus why she basically gave Tyrese permission to shoot her. But the big wuss once again failed to come through, and he didn't shoot her. 

 

 

[ghoulina]

Grr. Really wished they'd mentioned that when she was defending herself to Rick. Her saying "they would have drowned in their own blood" reads to me as her assuming/predicting their fate. Why didn't they have her say "when I went to check on them, they'd trashed their cells in their panic and confusion, blood was everywhere...they were bleeding out. They were drowning in their own blood". The line is about three seconds longer than what we got but it makes a WORLD of difference, IMO.

 

Yea, but if that were the case, why would she have dragged them out and burned them and then not told anyone? If it really were a case of her checking on them and finding that they were in such a state she really and truly needed to put them out of their own misery - she'd be able to just tell everyone that. The fact that she didn't want to say anything spoke to her feeling guilty or realizing it was wrong. 

 

Honestly, that scenario makes more sense for Carol. But it seems to me that sense went out the window in favor of the plotline that the writers were determined to stick to.

[Seawolff]

[Chimes in]

Carol did say to Rick that they were choking on their own blood when they first spoke about Karvid.

Carol did it. She wasn't covering for Lizzie. She was not yet close to her. We saw Carol's reaction when she first started realizing something was wrong with Lizzie, and it was after Karvid. Not much of a stretch to think she'd go to visit them, realize that the hard thing needed to be done, and done now. Why waste time, the time in which these people are choking, going to gather everyone for a heartbreaking debate. I think she was not planning to keep it secret, either. I think she was probably on the way to get clean up supplies, water, (which, remember the pump got clogged at that point)when Tyrese made his discovery.

Yes, both Carol and Daryl stood by for a moment watching other people beat on each other. I bet they've both had plenty experience with the pros and cons of staying out of the fights of bigger people. They also know that timing is everything when telling people prone to physical violence that you've done something that they'll be pissed about. Carol intervenes first. Verbally. Carol has experience with standing up to her husband for her daughter's sake. Once she speaks, Daryl moves too.

I didn't want to believe it was Carol, but I can believe it.

Again, I can't see a reason for Lizzie killing them. If she did, she wouldn't have also done the other things. She WANTS people to come back. Carol reminded Tyrese of this in the Grove. Say Lizzie did it. Carol found out, finished the job and hadn't cleaned up yet. That is my only possibility in the "Lizzie did it" universe. And I just think it's too far fetched. I don't think she went there until on the road with her sister. Remember, this was before more people got sick. This was before Lizzie "got sick" too and went into quarantine with the other sick people.

On his deathbed the girls' father was clearly speaking to Mika when he asked her to "watch after her sister." It's viewer disorientation that made us perceive that he was speaking to the older child. As soon as the words are out of his mouth Mika leaves his side and goes over to Lizzie to comfort her! So Mika totally knows he's talking to HER, but It's obvious at the time that Carol, like us, assumes he's speaking to Lizzie. Watch it again.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Seawolff

[NoWillToResist]

 

She wasn't covering for Lizzie. She was not yet close to her.

 

I don't think Carol would have to be close to a child to want to cover for that child. Even if the father hadn't asked her to look out for Lizzie, Carol is still feeling the loss of her own daughter and has a protective streak a mile wide...

[lulee]

[Chimes in]

Carol did say to Rick that they were choking on their own blood when they first spoke about Karvid.

But she didn't say that. In "Indifference" she said, "Someone you trust, you mean. They would have drowned in their own blood. They were suffering. I made it quick. We needed the bodies gone. We needed to stop it from spreading. They were the only ones who were sick. They were a threat. I was trying to save lives. I had to try. Somebody had to."

 

I know it's getting very semantic, but "they were choking on their own blood" sounds way more emergent (thus mercy killing) than "they would have drowned in their own blood" (which sounds like a judgment projecting forward). 

Carol's irreversible decision is cast in at least a shade better light if she went to their cells and found them gasping and choking to death - and if that decision process is made clearer to the audience, but the showmakers wanted the ambiguity they created. 

 

ETA: I do believe that Carol was the sole killer of Karen and David. I just think it would have been better, more consistent storytelling to make clear that Carol may have gone to them with some intent, but found them so ill that she could tell they were in horrible pain and about to die and thus turn, and she then felt decided on mercy killing them - with no option of reconsidering. Like I said before, it still leaves plenty of room for other characters to doubt her trustworthiness, judgment, willingness to be part of group decision making, etc.

Edited October 21, 2014 by lulee

[Seawolff]

You are correct and my paraphrase did add all kinds of extra incentive. The point remains that she did say something about the plight of Karen and David to Rick in relation to what she thought (at the time)would happen to them.

[NurseGiGi]

I think Carol did kill Karen and David.  There was a flashback scene, and I want to say it was right after she confessed to Tyrese but I'm not sure, of her going up to Karen, gently rubbing her head, and putting a knife into her skull.  It then showed her dragging the body down the hall.

 

Hoping someone can help me.  I've rewatched the episodes many times and just can't recall the "stuff and thangs".  Can somebody maybe tell me the season, and possibly the episode?  Thanks in advance.

[kikismom]

I think Carol did kill Karen and David.  There was a flashback scene, and I want to say it was right after she confessed to Tyrese but I'm not sure, of her going up to Karen, gently rubbing her head, and putting a knife into her skull.  It then showed her dragging the body down the hall.

 

It wasn't a flashback. It was Rick imagining how it went down "in his mind's eye". If it was Carol's flashback, it would have been inarguable. They did it with Rick walking the corridors and imagining what happened in each spot.

But this is also a guy who talked to Jim, Amy, Jacqui, and Lori ---four dead people---on a disconnected phone. And saw his dead wife.

[NurseGiGi]

Thanks for the correction, kikismom.  I guess in watching the recent marathon the episodes ran together. 

 

Now, how about the "stuff and thangs" reference?

[kikismom]

Thanks for the correction, kikismom.  I guess in watching the recent marathon the episodes ran together. 

 

Now, how about the "stuff and thangs" reference?

does this help :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm2CNn3CIU0

[NoWillToResist]

Hah! Dang, someone needs to autotune that.... :D

[Emily Thrace]

And yet she was friendly and supportive towards all the ladies in the group, she cooked and cleaned for the group, she comforted Lori during her pregnancy, worked her ass off to help with Judith, kept an eye on Daryl and made sure that he didn't withdraw from the group back at the farm, welcomed the Woodbury crew to the prison...I just...I can't see her someone who is self-centred, self-absorbed or selfish. Her personal history would have required the exact opposite. IMO, you can't have an abused wife who is all "my stuff is more important than yours".

Except I think you missing why Carol did these things. I don't feel like a lot of what Carol has done has been for the good of others it ostly been for the good of Carol. Take her relationship with Daryl for the most part Carol needs Daryl a lot more than he needs her. Even back in season two when she's asking him to stay its not because its better for Daryl it because she its not fair to her.  I don't think helping out with the cooking makes her some kind of giving person, its the bare minimum anyone could do to help out. Carol wasn't the one who stepped up and took care of Judith that was Beth at the prison and Tyreese after that. Carol actually seemed to delberately step away from Judith. Again a less self-centered person might have cared more about Judith's or even Lori's feelings and less about their own. Of course the biggest one is leaving the search for Sophia entirely in the hands if others. I'm not saying Carol should have been out there taking down walkers and storming after her child but her complete lack of interest is glaring. Not to mention actually asking Daryl not to search beacuse Carol can't lose him is selfish as hell.

 

I  think Carol's experience with Ed is a big part of why Carol is self-centered. For years her whole world revolved around keeping herself safe and not making Ed angry and that didn't leave a lot of room for worrying about others. Carol lived in such a state of fear that everything even Sophia was secondary and now she doesn't know how to let that go. Making Carol feel safe is still dominates her relationships with Daryl, Lizzie, Mika even Rick.  That's why Carol has such issues with not being in control because control and safety are the same thing in her mind. Its also why so many abuse victims wind up abusers the abuse leaves them with feelings of anger and fear and that's the only way they know how to deal with them. I think its unrealistic for Carol to be the nurturing Maddona figure her fans claim she is. People who have gone through what she has tend to be damaged and have a hard time trusting people which I think is evidenced by her lack of relationships outside of Daryl and sometimes Rick. 

[RedheadZombie]

Can anyone help me out?  Before Carol confessed, Tyreese, Rick, etc. were positive that David and Karen had been murdered.  First of all, if K/D had died naturally, the survivors might have chosen to burn them.  I know they bury the people they care about, but they were down people at that time, and it's dangerous to leave these two bodies laying around - infected with the flu, or contaminated walker goo.  If it was the blood and trashed cell, that could have happened naturally as they died.  People don't just lay passively when they're dying from a respiratory problem, they thrash and struggle, sometimes with a surprising amount of strength.  Struggling would have trashed their cells, and with "choking on their own blood", blood would have poured out of their mouths or noses.

 

Now, how about the "stuff and thangs" reference?

 

Go to Youtube, and watch Honest Trailers - The Walking Dead.  It's quite comical.  If you want some more laughs, watch Bad Lip Reading - The Walking Dead, parts one and two.  I'd post a link, but I'm a dumb dumb.

 

Not to mention actually asking Daryl not to search beacuse Carol can't lose him is selfish as hell.

 

That was her telling him that she no longer thought Sophia was alive, and Daryl shouldn't risk his life on a fruitless mission.  I think selfishness would have been Carol insisting Daryl continues to search, even when they knew she couldn't possibly still be alive.

[NurseGiGi]

Thank you so much, kikismom and redheadzombie.  That was HIlarious!  I'm going to have to watch Bad Lip Reading now.  I've seen one but didn't know there were two of them.  Not sure which one I saw.

[ghoulina]

I don't feel like a lot of what Carol has done has been for the good of others it ostly been for the good of Carol. Take her relationship with Daryl for the most part Carol needs Daryl a lot more than he needs her. Even back in season two when she's asking him to stay its not because its better for Daryl it because she its not fair to her.

 

I definitely don't see Carol's relationship with Daryl being all about what he could do for her. She showed genuine concern for him. She knew how upset he was over not finding Sophia, and that's why she constantly kept checking on him. She brought him food when he was laid up in bed after Andrea nearly killed him. She believed in him before he believed himself. She kept telling him that he was just as good as the other guys. In season 3 she reminded him that Merle wasn't a good influence on him. I think the two of them have a very symbiotic relationship. They both come from backgrounds of abuse and feeling unworthy, and they helped to build the other person up. 

 

I have never seen Carol as selfish, or even self-centered. She has worked hard and been an important part of the group. She has her flaws, and has fucked up like the rest of them, but I absolutely think she cares about the welfare of others before herself. Hence why she went into Terminus all on her own, knowing she could very well die. But she wanted to save the people she loved. 

[NoWillToResist]

Redheadzombie... good question. I too wondered how they could tell that the crispy remains of the bodies were of murdered humans. How the fuck could you see a fatal wound??

 

 

Except I think you missing why Carol did these things. I don't feel like a lot of what Carol has done has been for the good of others it mostly been for the good of Carol.

 

I’m trying, I am, but I cannot see how most of Carol’s actions were done for her own selfish benefit. Does a selfish person ask a jerk to leave his nice brother alone? Does a selfish person agree to take on the care of a stranger’s two girls in the ZA? Does a selfish person cook and clean for the group? Does a selfish person undertake a reading group to the Woodbury children? Does a selfish person teach children how to defend themselves?

 

 

Take her relationship with Daryl for the most part Carol needs Daryl a lot more than he needs her.

 

She accepted the banishment from Rick and she was going to leave the group again in the last episode. In contrast, Daryl expressed the most emotional vulnerability I've ever seen when he saw Carol after Terminus, he spent most of last episode telling her that she could stay and have a fresh start with them all,  and he basically prevented her from leaving at the end of the episode. I'd say the dependency is either balanced, or more on Daryl's side now, TBH.

 

 

I don't think helping out with the cooking makes her some kind of giving person, its the bare minimum anyone could do to help out.

 

Sure, but IMO self-centred, selfish people DON'T help out, or will make excuses to avoid helping out.

 

 

Carol wasn't the one who stepped up and took care of Judith that was Beth at the prison and Tyreese after that. Carol actually seemed to delberately step away from Judith. Again a less self-centered person might have cared more about Judith's or even Lori's feelings and less about their own.

 

Carol chose to saddle herself with the pregnant Lori, practiced cutting a zombie's abdomen in case a c-section was needed etc. She often took care of Judith at the prison. I'd say she shared that responsibility with Beth. When Carol was off doing the more 'adult' tasks, care of Judith seemed to fall to Beth.

 

 

I  think Carol's experience with Ed is a big part of why Carol is self-centered. For years her whole world revolved around keeping herself safe and not making Ed angry and that didn't leave a lot of room for worrying about others.

 

I may be misremembering, but I thought there was something in her prayer (in the church they found when Sophia was missing) where I got the impression that Carol had done her best to keep Ed away from Sophia - likely to her own personal detriment safety-wise.

 

 

People who have gone through what she has tend to be damaged and have a hard time trusting people which I think is evidenced by her lack of

relationships outside of Daryl and sometimes Rick

 

Carol is/was friends with Andrea, Daryl, Lori, Hershel, Rick and Tyrese. IMO, she didn't have problems forming connections to these people at all. That said, I feel that the recent trauma with Mika/Lizzie has made her withdraw from everyone. If she can get past that horrible incident, I see no reason why she can't reconnect with her family again.

 

I think I will just have to agree to disagree here, Emily. We are on totally opposite sides of the Carol spectrum. Granted, at the beginning, I didn't much care for her character...too much crying, too much sadness etc., but I have the luxury of not having experienced of a life of abuse, so I made a conscious decision to cut her some slack. Since then, the character has improved by leaps and bounds for me. She went from a downtrodden victim with 'only' homemaking skills to someone who made the effort to expand and improve her skills to be a valuable asset in the ZA. 

 

I don't think she's some perfect saint, but I do have love for the character. I suspect much of that can probably be credited to the excellent actress who plays her. :)

[Anithe1]

Agree with all that. ^ I like the character a lot and think she's just very depressed after Mika/Lizzie and not being able to talk about it.

[LilySilver]

I agree that Carol is terribly traumatized by what happened with Lizzie and Mika--and Tyrese's insistence that they keep it a secret added to her distress.

 

I would say she loved those girls, but I remember the scene when Lizzie called Carol "mommy" and Carol rebuffed her--"Not too close," she seemed to say both for her own sake in light of Sophia's loss, and for the sake of the children she was trying to toughen up for survival in the ZA.  Any case she felt responsible for those girls and in the end she failed to protect sweet Mika (gosh that girl was sweet!) and had to kill Lizzie herself!! Just a few days ago!  And nobody knows, and heck she got kicked out of the group for killing people who were about to die anyway and obviously she is not worthy to remain in the group...ETA--It seemed she was hardened, but solution-oriented and somewhat hopeful at the prison.  She has to have lost all of that hope, all of that purpose now. Why go on at all? (Of course that is always my question. I'd have offed myself long ago!)

 

That's how I see her thought process right now.

 

It's hard to imagine the intensity (even given the major suspension of disbelief I undertake for every episode as it is) of what they have gone through in the last couple of weeks, on top of the general horror of the world right now and Carol's own life history even before the ZA.  It bothered me a bit that no one had a breakdown when they all finally were sitting in the relative safety of the church, merrily swigging away....and I thought that was why Carol had to go. Right now she is really broken for good reason.

 

Daryl had a chance to process at least a little bit before Beth was taken.  Rick, Carl, and Michonne had their moment to pause before moving on. Sasha and Bob hugged it all out and decided to focus on the bluebirds and sunshine.   I would think Glenn, Maggie, Carol, and Tyrese would all be hanging on by a thread, and showing it more than they have. All these people have to have some degree of PTSD, but I think right now Maggie and Carol would be at the top of that list.

Edited October 22, 2014 by LilySilver

[Seawolff]

I can get wanting to forget things, start new, but Carol is all about acknowledging the elephant. She brought Daryl out of his shell this way. My issue: Tyrese goes to her and saying Everything's OK 'cuz he's told them it's ok with him. But then, instead of saying "I don't feel good about telling them about the girls, what do you think", he says (approximately)let's not talk about the girls, I want to forget about it. This takes away Carol's right to be forthright, and turns what they, what she, did into a crime. It forces her into a position of "don't tell" which smacks of her abused past. I don't think Carol can live with secrets.

This show really needs to have two episodes per week.

[Ocean Chick]

As to Carol being selfish or self-centered, would a selfish person risk her life to help people who had kicked her out of the group and left her to the tender mercies of this new world?  I don't think so myself.  Carol has always been there for other people, whether it was keeping an eye on pregnant Lori, learning to help Hershel with the medical needs of the group, welcoming Andrea at the prison (the ONLY one to do so) with a hug, telling an emotionally abused man that he was as good as anyone else, or learning to shoot and kill in aid of the group.

 

Her wanting to leave the group is her version of Michonne becoming the walking mute after Andre was killed.  Carol's lost 3 girls now, and one had to go by her own hand.  She's in shock and depressed and traumatized, and she needs a moment to process what's she's been through.  But she'll be fine in the end.

[ghoulina]

I would say she loved those girls, but I remember the scene when Lizzie called Carol "mommy" and Carol rebuffed her--"Not too close," she seemed to say both for her own sake in light of Sophia's loss, and for the sake of the children she was trying to toughen up for survival in the ZA

 

I still think she loved them, though. I think as hard as she tried to be tough, and get them to be tough, she was starting to think of those girls as her own. Look how relaxed and fun they all were in The Grove, shelling pecans and playing with Grizella Gunderson. She told Ty they could stay. She started their departure from the prison hard and cold, but she seemed like she was letting down her guard and becoming softer. Then....BAM! Beautiful, sweet, innocent Mika is laying there in a pool of her own blood, while tough, but confused, Lizzie stands there with the knife in her hands. And Carol has to desculate the situation to save Judith, then march Lizzie out the flowers to die. Carol sobbed like a woman truly who heartbroken, a woman who had loved and lost - yet again. 

 

My issue: Tyrese goes to her and saying Everything's OK 'cuz he's told them it's ok with him. But then, instead of saying "I don't feel good about telling them about the girls, what do you think", he says (approximately)let's not talk about the girls, I want to forget about it. This takes away Carol's right to be forthright, and turns what they, what she, did into a crime. It forces her into a position of "don't tell" which smacks of her abused past. I don't think Carol can live with secrets.

 

I agree. I don't like him just making the decision for the both of them. Maybe she doesn't want to talk/think about it either, but at least ASK her how she feels about it. I definitely think it's eating away at Carol and she needs to talk to somebody. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

I don't like him just making the decision for the both of them.

 

I'd understand if HE had had to pull the trigger; that's his right to not want to talk about it. But he was just a witness to the event; Carol was the one who had to get her hands dirty.

 

She was the one who promised their father she'd look out for them. One died on her watch and the other died by her hand. How the hell is she supposed to just keep mum about that and move on? That shit is TOXIC to mental health.

 

Combine that with the loss of her own daughter under horrific circumstances (a bullet to the brain would be a much more pleasant way to go) not that long ago and I honestly don't know how Carol isn't in the fetal position under a rock. That's where I'd be. Well...that's a lie actually...I'd have joined Jacqui in the great CDC Explosion of 2010! Because fuck all this noise, honestly. :)  Covered in dirt, fear of people, fear of walkers, constant fear of death, eating squirrels...thanks but no. Save a bullet for me, please.

 

For all their talk of surviving vs living, there's not a lot of living to be had in the ZA. Every safe haven has been temporary and shattered horribly by the end. A lull and one hour feast does not make up for the remaining 90% of torment, blood and death.

[LilySilver]

Daryl, Lizzie, and Mika were the ones Beth asked about when Rick told her she couldn't come back to the prison.  She asked if she could come get Lizzie and Mika. So yes, I do think she thought of them as hers.  

 

Tyrese's reactions to pretty much everything bug me.  I can't get a handle on who the writers want this guy to be (beyond "gentle giant," which, gag. And it isn't enough depth to make him interesting).  He ought to be following Carol's lead. He ought to be worried about her. Except that she murdered his girlfriend. There's that. But still. Tyrese, not to be mean, but I don't even think Karen liked you that much.

[ghoulina]

If I was Carol I would have totally Jacqui'd out long ago. 

[JBody]

Sorry if this has been mentioned but I was forced to conclude Carol killed K&D back on TWOP and she confirmed it on the Grove when Ty assumes Lizzie did it and she said Lizzie would have let them turn. Also with the whole mess, very uncharacteristic of her, I assumed it was because Carol didn't have time to clean up.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Also with the whole mess, very uncharacteristic of her, I assumed it was because Carol didn't have time to clean up.

 

I remember trying to think back to what was happening at the prison at that time (i.e. did some crisis suddenly come up which required Carol to leave her 'clean up' job midway). Ugh, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

*channeling Frozen* Let it go...let it go....  ;)

 

 

Daryl, Lizzie, and Mika were the ones Beth asked about when Rick told her she couldn't come back to the prison

 

I think you meant 'Carol'. :) 

 

Assuming Carol ever reveals the events of the Grove, I am curious to know (A) who she'll confess to first and (B) what their response will be. 

[lulee]

I'd find it really interesting if Carol confesses to Beth. Whatever Beth is going through is probably a weird and traumatic experience, not long after seeing her father murdered and then she was separated from her sister. Beth was being shown to be losing her innocence, coming more to grips with harsh world, and she might be able to offer Carol a unique compassion for the events at the Grove.

Edited October 23, 2014 by lulee

[ParadoxLost]

Assuming Carol ever reveals the events of the Grove, I am curious to know (A) who she'll confess to first and (B) what their response will be. 

 

I can't see Carol confessing to the weaker members of the group, so that leaves Rick/Daryl/Michonne.  That is why Tyresse's demand frustrate me so much.  All three of them would understand that it was necessary and offer support and comfort.  Tyreese denied Carol that by demanding silence so he could forget.

 

The one worry I have is that she'll decide to confess her sins to Father Gabriel.  That wouldn't go well at all.

[NoWillToResist]

 

The one worry I have is that she'll decide to confess her sins to Father Gabriel.  That wouldn't go well at all.

 

Well, since Carol's off with Daryl, I guess we won't have to worry about that. :)

 

It does seem that Carol has some religion (or did, anyway). Wouldn't have surprised me if she'd prayed for forgiveness or understanding and someone overheard...

[Emily Thrace]

She accepted the banishment from Rick and she was going to leave the group again in the last episode. In contrast, Daryl expressed the most emotional vulnerability I've ever seen when he saw Carol after Terminus, he spent most of last episode telling her that she could stay and have a fresh start with them all,  and he basically prevented her from leaving at the end of the episode. I'd say the dependency is either balanced, or more on Daryl's side now, TBH.

 Except she was also willing to run away from him without so much as a goodbye this week. Again selfish and putting her needs first. And Daryl is the one person who has been consistently on her side and had her back. He still didn't warrant so much as a see you later when Carol couldn't face up to consequences of her actions. Again the person who matter's most to Carol is Carol.

 

I’m trying, I am, but I cannot see how most of Carol’s actions were done for her own selfish benefit. Does a selfish person ask a jerk to leave his nice brother alone? Does a selfish person agree to take on the care of a stranger’s two girls in the ZA? Does a selfish person cook and clean for the group? Does a selfish person undertake a reading group to the Woodbury children? Does a selfish person teach children how to defend themselves?

Yes but why did she cook for the group? Was because she wanted to do for others or because she wanted to give them a reason to keep her around? Afterall the thing she hates most is being alone. I suspect its part of why she went after the other's  at Terminus, since Tyreese clearly didn't want to be around her.  Or perhaps she just wanted to die and since Ty wasn't willing to do the job for her she thought she found another way. You admit you can't reconcile the Carol you believe exists with Carol who killed Karvid well niether can I. Someone truly kind and compassionate could not have killed Karen and David so coldly so therefore Carol is clearly not all that kind. I'm sorry but if you have to re-write the show to fit your version of character perhaps its your evaluation of the character that is wrong. Ultimately the show has decided Carol is not that great of a person and that might suck but its the writer's choice no amount of theorizing will change that (Scott Gimple has stated more than once that Lizzie did not kill Karen and David FYI)

 

I'm not saying Carol is incapable of doing something for other people that would make her a narcisscist not just garden variety selfish. I just tihnk when given a choice between doing for other and doing what she wants Carol's needs win out most of the time. Hell just this week Carol was more than willing to skip out on Daryl probably the only person who has ever truly had her back because she couldn't face the consequences of her own actions. With Carol it seems what she wants matter most and that makes her selfish to me.

 

She often took care of Judith at the prison. I'd say she shared that responsibility with Beth. When Carol was off doing the more 'adult' tasks, care of Judith seemed to fall to Beth.

 

Except that wasn't what was shown onscreen, Carol was shown with Judith no more than Herschel or Carl. Berh was actually shown onscreen with Judith twice as much as Carol in season three alone. In season 4 Carol was shown actually caring for Judith once the rest of the time she was with Rick, Tyreese or Beth. Hell Lizzie actualy had Judith more than Carol did in season 4. I'm not saying Carol doesn't care about Judith at all but based on what we've seen she's fourth of fifth on the list of Judith caregivers at best.

[GodsBeloved]

I can get wanting to forget things, start new, but Carol is all about acknowledging the elephant. She brought Daryl out of his shell this way. My issue: Tyrese goes to her and saying Everything's OK 'cuz he's told them it's ok with him. But then, instead of saying "I don't feel good about telling them about the girls, what do you think", he says (approximately)let's not talk about the girls, I want to forget about it. This takes away Carol's right to be forthright, and turns what they, what she, did into a crime. It forces her into a position of "don't tell" which smacks of her abused past. I don't think Carol can live with secrets.

This show really needs to have two episodes per week.

I don't think Tyreese's desire not talk about what Carol did takes away her right to tell whoever she wants to tell. She can consider Tyreese's words/feelings but at the end of the say, its still Carol's choice. If she wants to unburden herself but doesn't, that's on her not Tyreese. She isn't his puppet.

Edited October 24, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[ghoulina]

Except she was also willing to run away from him without so much as a goodbye this week. Again selfish and putting her needs first. And Daryl is the one person who has been consistently on her side and had her back. He still didn't warrant so much as a see you later when Carol couldn't face up to consequences of her actions. Again the person who matter's most to Carol is Carol.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that she was leaving. She may have just been idling the car to get the battery fully charged. She mentioned it would be good to have a car out by the road, in case things went south - which isn't poor thinking. 

 

Even if Carol was being selfish right now (I think myself and others have given plenty of evidence of her selfless acts over the years), I could give her a pass on that. She could definitely be suffering from some PTSD over having to kill a little girl, who had just murdered another little girl. People who are in fucked up places are often incapable of thinking of others. But yet she still immediately went to help her friends in Terminus, when she heard what Martin was saying. Without a second thought. I guess you could say she did it not for them, but because she wanted to die. But I didn't see it that way at all. We'll just have to chalk it up to people having different interpretations. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

I'm sorry but if you have to re-write the show to fit your version of character perhaps its your evaluation of the character that is wrong.

 

Or one particular storyline was very poorly written since that is the only inexplicable,OOC action of Carol's on the entire show, IMO. We haven't been given enough information about the K&D situation because TPTB wanted it shrouded in mystery...and it still is. Unfortunately, I think "x did it" is TPTB's idea of resolution and it's not enough for me, which is why I'm basically writing it off. It's the only blip in her characterization for me, so that's why I struggle with it. Everything else about Carol is crystal clear for me; I have no other complaints about how she's been written.

 

 

In season 4 Carol was shown actually caring for Judith once the rest of the time she was with Rick, Tyreese or Beth

 

Carol was banished for most of S4, so can't really judge her for not babysitting. At the beginning of the season, Carol was heavily involved with dealing with the sick. Judith was isolated from the illness and since Carol was on-call as a nurse if you will, naturally she can't do both. So Beth was sent into exile with the baby. Then Carol was banished.

 

When she finally turned up again, they were on the run, so as one of only two adults dealing with the care and protection of two kids and a baby and the other adult can't/won't kill walkers, yeah, maybe she has to be ready to protect the gang and so has to pass the baby off to someone else.

 

 

He still didn't warrant so much as a see you later when Carol couldn't face up to consequences of her actions.

 

There aren't any consequences to her actions, at least not from others; as far as the group is concerned, she's back in the fold. Carol is struggling mentally with the Mika/Lizzie thing; it's an internal struggle, not external. We'll have to wait and see how it all ends up playing out, but I don't think Carol is afraid of telling the gang the truth for fear of being kicked out again considering she was willing to banish herself. I think she's judged herself and has apparently deemed herself unfit for company or undeserving of love/support from the group.

[mightysparrow]

 

I'm sorry but if you have to re-write the show to fit your version of character perhaps its your evaluation of the character that is wrong.

 

I agree.  If it comes out that it was Lizzie that killed Karen and David, that will be one of the most extreme examples of fan-pandering I've ever seen.  It seems that Carol has become some sort of symbol for a certain segment of the audience and she has to be perfect, or nothing.  I've never been a fan of Carol but I think this morally ambiguous version of the character is much more interesting than the passive-aggressive character we had before.  

[nodorothyparker]

At this point, it's canon that Carol killed these two people.  It happened and I accept that.  I do have to do a bit of fanwanking to make the utter mess left behind make sense with what I know about the character but that's hardly unique to this particular situation.  I find that I often have to mentally fill in certain blanks to believe that all of these people aren't dead already from their own poor decision making and general stupidity.  That's a writing issue that's showwide though.

 

I really don't want to see a lot of revisiting it or trying to retcon it because as several characters seemed to be getting this week, they simply have bigger fish to fry.  They don't have a safe home base and precious little in the way of extra ammunition or supplies.  People who WILL capture and eat them if given the chance are stalking them through the woods.  Group members are missing.  And a trio of comic book characters are trying to drag them off on a ridiculously flimsy sounding mission to what was very densely populated part of the country probably now teeming with chaos and walkers.  They don't have the luxury of a ton of time to talk about their feelings or agonize about how they square up with a world that really doesn't exist anymore anyway.

 

I've seen interviews with Andy Lincoln where he talks about how he views Carol as being far ahead of the rest of the group and even ahead of Rick.  I think he's right, although I believe Rick is rapidly catching up.  One of the ongoing themes of the show has been that despite all the ambulatory corpses that people are the real monsters and seeing what they're capable of when all the social constraints of society and right and wrong and what's justifiable are gone.  Characters like Glenn are still holding onto those things for dear life and as a result he ended up only rescuing one of the monsters who provided the impetus for Terminus in the first place and left the people who would have killed and eaten him alive to take another go at it.  Carol, on the other hand, and increasingly Rick are accepting that hard, terrible things are going to have to be done to save themselves and the people they love and that the black and white of the old world simply can't apply anymore.  They're not the characters they were when the apocalypse started and they have to live with that.

 

I can love Carol and still accept all of this about her.  Carol can still be the generous person who will do anything including risking herself for those she loves and the woman who quietly compartmentalizes "I'm going to go kill people" because she recognizes that's what needs to be done.  Male characters have been pulling this off for years.  This actress is certainly up to it.

Edited October 23, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

I can love Carol and still accept all of this about her.  Carol can still be the generous person who will do anything including risking herself for those she loves and the woman who quietly compartmentalizes "I'm going to go kill people" because she recognizes that's what needs to be done.  Male characters have been pulling this off for years.  This actress is certainly up to it.

 

I agree with all of your post, but especially this. I had a really hard time grasping the Karvid storyline. Mostly because the motivation seemed stupid, and Carol is not stupid. But at this point, it's known that she did it and I've just accepted it and moved on . I don't agree with it, but I don't hate her because of it. Carol is a complex woman, definitely not perfect. I find her incredibly relatable and inspiring. 

[nodorothyparker]

Yeah, the motivations were utterly stupid to anyone who spends any real time breaking it down.  But they apparently needed a storyline that would give Rick reason to kick out the last surviving female from CDB and this is what they went with.  So we as an audience have to go with it as well.

 

If I squint really hard I can piece together enough back story and motivation for it to sort of work.  Because of this illness none of them saw coming, kids she knew and had presumably taught had ended up dead overnight and in Not!Harry Potter's case turned and terrorized the home they'd fought so hard to create and keep safe.  People had already died.  She'd just been handed two surrogate daughters and promised to protect them as she couldn't protect her own child.  Now more people are coughing.  As I said I can sort of see how she got there, but yeah, still stupid.

 

But as Rick himself said, which I think sums up waaaaay more than just interacting with Gabriel, "We've all done something."  Which seems kind of the point now.

Edited October 23, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[NoWillToResist]

 

It seems that Carol has become some sort of symbol for a certain segment of the audience and she has to be perfect, or nothing. 

 

Perfection is boring and/or unrealistic. I'm quite happy for Carol to make mistakes. I would just like her mistakes to be in character, that's all, I and felt that her disposal of K&D was not.

 

 

I had a really hard time grasping the Karvid storyline. Mostly because the motivation seemed stupid, and Carol is not stupid.

 

I could handle Carol unilaterally deciding they should die even though it seemed unnecessary considering that they were quarantined. It was really only the execution (heh) of the killings that didn't gel with the Carol I had seen up to that point or since. She'll make the hard choices and take the hard action if she deems it necessary but, with the exception of Mary in Terminus, Carol had always been merciful and considerate when taking those actions. Everything about the handling of K&D's corpses was the opposite of that.

When I said that I'm sticking with Lizzie as the culprit, I was being somewhat facetious. As others have pointed out, it seems that the whole thing kind of falls down upon closer inspection, which is why I think TPTB don't want us to look any deeper, like, "Carol did it guys! Don't look too closely at it, and let's all move on!"  ;)

 

 

I've never been a fan of Carol but I think this morally ambiguous version of the character is much more interesting than the passive-aggressive character we had before.

 

Yes, I wasn't a fan of the Carol who wouldn't voice an opinion but would then criticize the decisions made by those who did speak up. Contribute or shut up, IMO. I think this is one of the things that she vastly improved on between...S2 and S3? There was a big time jump between 2 seasons and when we caught up to them in the prison, Carol had learned many useful skills beyond crying/whining and she joined the council to discuss things and make decisions. BIG improvement!! :)

[ghoulina]

Yes, I wasn't a fan of the Carol who wouldn't voice an opinion but would then criticize the decisions made by those who did speak up. Contribute or shut up, IMO. I think this is one of the things that she vastly improved on between...S2 and S3? There was a big time jump between 2 seasons and when we caught up to them in the prison, Carol had learned many useful skills beyond crying/whining and she joined the council to discuss things and make decisions. BIG improvement!!

 

Agreed. I couldn't STAND Carol season 2. But, a lot of them still annoyed me at that point. When I saw how everyone had changed after their winter on the road, I was like - "Now we're talking!" My Carol love really snuck up on me. When they thought she died in the tombs with T-Dog I was heartbroken, and so excited when Daryl found her. When she told Merle that maybe he was a late bloomer too, that was it. She had me. 

[nodorothyparker]

A lot of them were still soft and whiny in season 2.  I blame the farm the apocalypse forgot for letting them all continue to stew in the delusion that the world really hadn't changed.  Carol was really only the worst offender of the bunch.  Losing Shane and the farm and then spending months on the road really toughened them all up to a point that even Lori became almost tolerable.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Losing Shane and the farm and then spending months on the road really toughened them all up to a point that even Lori became almost tolerable.

 

Well now, let's not be too hasty...  ;)

 

I wish there was a way to get more info on Carol's history without weighing down the show with it. I'd like to know what she was like before Ed. Did she come from an abusive home or a good one? When did she meet Ed? When did they marry? Was he always an abusive asshole or did he become one? Did she welcome having a child with him or fear it? Did she have family? Friends?

 

IIRC, back in S1, she'd bonded with the ladies at the quarry, even with her dick of a hubby around, so I don't know if she thought the ZA would make Ed give her more freedom or if she maybe she gave less of a shit about retribution from him in light of what else they were all dealing with. Perhaps the presence/support of other made her brave.

Edited October 23, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[ghoulina]

. Perhaps the presence/support of other made her brave.

 

I definitely think that was it. I imagine in their old life Ed kept her pretty isolated. But now he wants the group for protection, so he can't really control Carol as much as he used to. I was so glad when died.

[nodorothyparker]

Some of the stories she told about Ed in Indifference and later in The Grove made it sound like maybe he wasn't always an asshole all the time.  I could swear she even described him as charming at one point.  But then that becomes a question of how much we can really trust her perspective as a reliable narrator.  He was a jackass in everything we saw of him in season 1 both in real time and Shane's flashback of him and wasn't making any real effort to hide it.  In season 3 after Daryl takes off with Merle, she's the only one who really understood why and remarks that she'd like to think she wouldn't be so quick to follow Ed if he showed back up alive but doesn't know that she wouldn't.  So he definitely had a strong hold on her.

 

The thing that makes me think it wasn't always horrific is how easily she bonded with the other women in those early seasons.  That suggests to me that maybe old Ed wasn't particularly effective at keeping her completely isolated.  But I realize it also could have been the utter necessity of needing these other people to survive.  Either way, it was a relief when he died.

Edited October 23, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[AngelaHunter]

I won't reiterate everything I"ve read in this thread and will just say I can't recall seeing Carol do anything I would classify as either selfish or self centered. To me, she IS now The Walking Dead.

[Ocean Chick]

She's certainly no more selfish than any of the rest of them.  And yes, she did say that Ed could be charming.  Especially after coming home drunk and....   She didn't finish that sentence, but I'm sure we can all fill in the blanks.  And that's true of most abusers - it's how they keep their victims in the relationship.  They apologize and cry and say that it will never happen again, and then treat their victim like a princess for a few days/hours.  Until they feel the need/yen to strike out again.  I'm sure Ed always had an excuse for every time he pulled her shoulder out of joint.  Or hit her.  Or raped her.  And I'm sure the excuse was plausible, until you really thought about it.  Which Carol wouldn't have, preferring to believe the lie rather than be alone.

[RedheadZombie]

There are two things that made me feel Ed had not completely broken Carol.  First, she offered food to Carl, who was basically a stranger at that point, and got chewed out by Ed - and I have to throw in, another sign that Carol is not selfish.  Also, when the women were reminiscing about what they miss, it was Carol who mentioned her vibrator.  And that was when Ed was still alive!

[cal]

 

Some of the stories she told about Ed in Indifference and later in The Grove made it sound like maybe he wasn't always an asshole all the time.  I could swear she even described him as charming at one point.

 

I don't remember that exact quote, but it wouldn't surprise me.  My ex could be very charming, but he was still a sociopath.  And I certainly believe that they had some good times.  Those actually are the worst.  Now that I'm away from my ex and can look back on things, it's the good times I regret.  Why?  Because they helped keep me invested in the relationship, they were the hope of what could be, what should be, and they ended up being nothing but lies.