Dr. Nate Heywood

[scarynikki12]

Clever subtitle to come later. 

It's weird. I like the character and the actor but I'm still on the fence. It's been two episodes and already he's been given a significant amount of screen time. I know we only have a limited number of episodes so we have little time to waste getting to know him.  Still, I don't want him to take away story focus from any of the others. And that's always the worry with newbies. 

I'd prefer his intro to be more like Sara's on Arrow rather than Ray's on Arrow. 

[Lady Calypso]

21 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

It's weird. I like the character and the actor but I'm still on the fence. It's been two episodes and already he's been given a significant amount of screen time. I know we only have a limited number of episodes so we have little time to waste getting to know him.  Still, I don't want him to take away story focus from any of the others. And that's always the worry with newbies. 

I totally get this. It feels like a little bit too much screentime for a new character with limited episodes. But I think because over half of the characters got to be developed on the other shows (Arrow, The Flash) before coming onto Legends, maybe the show wanted to give him a fair chance at a backstory, especially an origin one. I mean, Sara got all of season 2 and parts of season 4 on Arrow to develop her story before Legends. Stein got multiple episodes on The Flash, and Jax kind of got thrusted into the already established origin story before Legends. We all know how the Hawks were introduced. Mick/Snart got their recurring roles on The Flash. Ray got all of season 3 and a couple of episodes of season 4 on Arrow. And then we even have Vixen, who had her granddaughter introduce the Vixen origin. 

Of course, this just takes into account the fans that also watch Arrow and The Flash. If you just watch Legends, or you don't watch all three, I guess this wouldn't even apply because it would be all new characters. But I assume that the showrunners and everyone involved in Legends are operating under the assumption/hope that viewers are at least familiar with the other shows. 

I guess my point is that Nate is a very new character, but his introduction is strictly on this show. He never got the chance to develop a proper introduction before this show like almost all the other characters (Rip is the only other regular that started on this show only), so I think the show is trying to give him the proper introduction that the other characters got. I guess the only issue is that they've had to rush it BECAUSE of the limited episodes he has, along with it being an ensemble show so he can't hog all of the screentime.

I think his screentime is fine, personally. I liked his story in this past second episode and I didn't feel like it took away from anyone else. At the very least, his time doesn't feel wasted like the Hawks and Savage did (yet??).

I have no worry about Nate's intro being like Ray's. Nate hasn't creepily stalked some poor woman, nor is it taking it all season to figure out his purpose and to reach his origin story. I like Ray now, but he had the worst presence on Arrow. 

Basically, I like the guy so far. I've never liked nor hated Nick Zano before this show, but he's doing a fine job with what he's being given. 

[tarotx]

I don't think the Nate description is too spoilery but there are very limited spoilers at the link.

Citizen Steel
If you are assuming that the manner in which Nathan Heywood was saved in this episode could lead into him becoming his comic book alter ego, Citizen Steel… you’re on to something.

Said Guggenheim “I think one of the reasons we wanted to bring the character Nate into the show was that we wanted to play with something that Flash got a lot a chance to really play with in Season 1, which is the fun of telling an origin story for a hero. In the evolution of a hero, there's all these sort of fun seminal moments that we want to put our Legends spin on and part of that in discovering you have powers, part of it is learning how to control those powers, part of it is the first time you go out in costume, the first time you fail…. the first time you realize you have a weakness. We want to be able to tell all those different kinds of stories and you can safely assume that the reason we brought in Nate was so that we can tell those kinds of stories, including the unpredictable nature of his powers. I think the next episode, 203, really sort of shows how difficult it is for Nate to get his powers under control.”

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/10/21/legends-of-tomorrow-ep-on-the-new-leader-rips-status-and-the-legion-of-doom

[Argenta]

I'm new to this show having started with S2, but I like this guy already. He has a nice demeanour, I think - quite relatable. Facially, he reminds me a little of Chris Pratt...I think it's the eyes. 

I hope he sticks around. 

[Sakura12]

For a great historian, Nate sure sucks at staying within the time period he's in. I don't get what he adds to the team if he's not any better than the rest of the team and not mentioning the future. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

I'm new to this show having started with S2, but I like this guy already. He has a nice demeanour, I think - quite relatable. Facially, he reminds me a little of Chris Pratt...I think it's the eyes. 

I hope he sticks around. 

 

Good choice, Nate has been a good addition.

He replaced two annoying characters (Rip & Captain Cold), the show is better for it to me. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by HeroLeague

[KirkB]

Quote

Nate doesn't make sense, but it's an interestingly consistent way of not making sense.  For all that he tells Ray that Ray acts like he learned history from movies, that's true for Nate too.  Shogun and Abominations both showed him acting very inappropriate for settings that he's supposed to have specialized in.  And his abhorrence to research in Outlaw Country didn't make sense at all.  He even compares research to high school at one point...when the man is a PhD!

I brought this over from the latest episode thread because I didn't want to derail it.

Nate does seem to be inconsistent. What he says he is doesn't quite jibe with how he acts. Which as far as I can tell means one of two things. The more interesting possibility is Nate is not who or what he says he is. He could be a Booster Gold type of character, a showoff who claims to have information and skills he really doesn't, and it will eventually catch up to him and endanger the rest of the team. The more likely possibility, unfortunately, is bad/lazy writing on the show's staff, like they had what they thought was a cool idea for a character, a nerd with super powers, and ran with it.

The thing for me is, a time historian with hemophilia could have been interesting. A guy who turns into metal, literally more brawn than brains, makes him much more of a stereotypical character. One who, frankly, I don't think the show needs.

[kismet]

I think they are honestly going shallow on Nate's character in case they don't keep him around in future seasons. He's the perfect person to drop from the show with no broken hearts. Unlike Snart & Rip, whom people actually miss.

For me it's an interesting choice, because Nate neither annoys me or interests me. He's just there, he doesn't ruin and he doesn't improve scenes. And I would take that over Hawkman who annoyed me to no end. Or Hawkgirl, which had so much potential that they just chucked away for predictable plot.

[Sakura12]

I don't know I see some comic book fans loving Nate because he can do the cool comic book stuff like deflect bullets and stop trains. 

While I find him underdeveloped and boring and kind of useless in supposed skill set.  I don't hate him, he's just there for me. He's a second rate Ray right now. 

[kismet]

For a brief fleeting moment in the Turncoat episode, I saw what Nate's purpose was on the team. With Rip out of commission, i think he supposed to help the team understand the ramifications of their mission. Explain time aberrations and timeline stuff. I think Gideon is all knowing of the facts of the time line like an encyclopedia; but the team needs a Rip or Nate to intepret and provide big message impacts of the mission as it pertains to the timeline.

Not saying he does it well, just saying i saw his purpose for a second. And honestly, I think his performance in such role is a good reason to hope for Rips safe return to baseline soon. Because unlike Timeless, this show doesn't really need a historian. It has Gideon for the facts. It needs a Rip. I think Nate was a last minute substitute and the clock is ticking. 

[Featherhat]

I did wonder that at first when I realised Arthur Darvill had been given a leave of absence for Broadchurch. But Nate so quickly forgot that he was an historian that I ended up dismissing it and going with "THEY NEED MORE MASKS" that is the focus of a lot of the Flarrowverse this season. I know it has changed a bit since then but one of the episodes had him lamenting that having to do research was like being in school all over again. Even Ray at his most annoying convincingly loves technology and how it can help him be a hero etc. A nerd with super powers is fine, a nerd who was forced to be a nerd because his body wasn't strong enough until now but now wants to be a JOCK /SUPERHERO is interesting but someone one who instantly transforms into a mix of Oliver Queen and Ray Palmer without much of a storyline and actively poo pooing the work that is why he is still aboard will probably never be my favourite character even if he is better than Male Hawk.

[Sakura12]

I will always have a problem with the supposed "heroes" that are in it for the glory. I have the same problem with Wally on the Flash. They think they needed super powers to help people instead of finding another way. Then when they get the powers they just want people to call them heroes and adore them. Or in Nate's case use it for a booty call in the middle of a dangerous mission where their team mates were actually dying. What writer thought that was a good idea? Did they think people would cheer Nate on for getting some? Then have him asking for a second round while again they were on a mission to save a team mate. At least Amaya finally remembered that and cared while he didn't. Mick and Leonard the criminals of the group are more heroic then him.  Powers do not make a hero, actions do. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Sakura12

[scarynikki12]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I will always have a problem with the supposed "heroes" that are in it for the glory.

Hear hear!  That's why I had trouble warming to a number of characters across the different shows.  I only started warming to Ray when they finally shut him up about Being A Hero and I think Mon-ell is only in the hero game so that he can be around Kara on Supergirl.  I've never had a problem with Wally on Flash but that's because Barry himself has been leading the My Goal Is To Be A Hero First And Help People Second train since the start so I'm out of eye rolls for any other Team Flash member who does it too.

I don't like that Nate is part of this pack but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as him running around like he's the star of the football team.  He really does play as if he only pursued academia because of the hemophilia but secretly resented not being a jock the entire time.  They did make a point of having him be more interested in sexing up Amaya than going to help the team so I hope he was just a place filler until Arthur was available again (though I certainly argue that Amaya would have been more than enough).  If the season ends with him leaving to be A Hero somewhere I will cheer.  I won't hold my breath as my fear is that he's sticking around and will continue to be the jock instead of the historian.

[kismet]

I think Nate always wanted to be a Jock Superhero. He wanted to be like his Grandfather. I do think academics was his back up plan, so the minute he got the silver suit - he was done being someone he never wanted to be.

I don't think Nate is a vital or essential part of the team. Most of the time he just fills the space. He doesn't generally bother me, although he doesn't generally get me excited or interested in his story. If he left I would be fine with it, if he stayed I'd probably be OK with it.

I do think his role as a historian was needed in Rip's absence. I think someone of the writers were better at writing those scenes that had Nate explain and use his history knowledge. Some writers failed to deliver those scenes. However, I think the biggest problem was that the actor who plays Nate really prefers the action hero parts over anything else. So he acts with gusto and almost too much in some of those scenes, while being kinda apathetic during the other scenes. But this causes a fundamental disconnect because LoT is a team show, and every scene in the Waverider is just as important as in the field. The other actors seem to know that the exposition scenes are critical to their characters, almost as much if not more than some of the action scenes. Perhaps the actor just needs to learn that too. BR seemed to learn that RP worked better as team member than trying to be a stand-out CGI star. If Nate stays, I hope the actor learns that too.

[Argenta]

I made positive comments about Nate when he first appeared, but he is getting on my nerves a bit now with his attitude. 

[kismet]

An attitude adjustment could do the character wonders. But that needs to come predominantly from the actor. The writing has been rather neutral, love scene excluded that was a bad writing choice. I have seen it work for some Flarrowverse actors; while others have been stubborn about it and it's hurt their characters. 

[Princess Lucky]

I did a small marathon/re-watch of S2 (including some episodes I skipped the first time around), and somehow I like Nate now. I don't know what happened (maybe his almost-high five with Damien Darhk?). It was a very slow process. At first, like many people, I didn't think he was necessary, though I did think Zano is likeable and watchable as an actor. As the season progressed, I liked him a little better, but still, he was just there for me, and he also had some low moments. When I first watched the finale, that was when I got an inkling I actually liked him. When he and Amaya decided to stay a) on the show and b) together, I found myself kind of cheering?

So, when I rewatched the entire season, I paid closer attention to them. I ended up enjoying the Nate/Amaya dynamic, and also the Nate/Ray dynamic (I had skipped the Camelot episode initially, and the Shogun episode, and the Jonah Hex episode, so I had missed their major moments). At first I thought Nate and Ray were too similar, but in the end I think Nate actually helped Ray come off as a more likeable character (instead of just whining over his suit, Ray focused on training Nate. Instead of just whining about changing history, Ray gave Nate some advice about dating Amaya. Instead of being the group's solitary goofy/nerdy bro, Ray found a bro to bro out with, which made him seem less desperate). And Nate/Amaya totally came out of nowhere, which was especially glaring during my rewatch, but still, they did have good chemistry, and they shared several nice moments after their random first encounter, so I eventually came to like them together. I have to admit, the scene of him crying in her arms after his grandfather died, it really got to me.

Basically, I think Nate is a useful character, in retrospect, because he works well with the others. Nate by himself, he's not that special, but all his interactions with the others (Amaya, Ray and Sara, especially) are fun, and they make the team feel more like a team. He's not my favorite, or anything (that would be Mick), but I'm glad he's staying.

[BkWurm1]

I still don't think he's needed for the cast, but I don't hate him so fine, as long as Ray isn't getting pushed out to make room, he can stick around.  I still like Ray better though.  :D

[Miss Dee]

I like Ray better too, but I'm fine with Nate... now. Total honesty, I really loved both the Raymick and the Mick/Amaya dynamics, and I resented it when Nate not only usurped the first but the second as well. It took me a while to be somewhat objective about him, and I'll probably never really love the character because of it.

They can keep Nate/Amaya (Stixen? Veele? Namaya? What do the kids call it these days?); just give Ray back to Mick, writers!

[Princess Lucky]

On 24/6/2017 at 1:32 AM, Miss Dee said:

I like Ray better too, but I'm fine with Nate... now. Total honesty, I really loved both the Raymick and the Mick/Amaya dynamics, and I resented it when Nate not only usurped the first but the second as well. It took me a while to be somewhat objective about him, and I'll probably never really love the character because of it.

They can keep Nate/Amaya (Stixen? Veele? Namaya? What do the kids call it these days?); just give Ray back to Mick, writers!

I'm with you on that, actually (and unsurprisingly). I think that's one of the reasons why I like Nate/Amaya, because it frees up Ray and maybe we can get Ray/Mick back. I like all the dynamics mentioned, and I think all the actors involved are charming and have chemistry with each other (romantic or otherwise). I'd be more than happy with Nate/Amaya as a romance, and Mick/Amaya as well as Ray/Nate as strong friendships, as long as Ray and Mick remember how close they once were. Mick gave him Snart's gun! I'm just glad they had that almost-hug in the finale, plus Ray's reaction to Mick's "death."

If anything, I was more upset when Mick called Amaya his "one" (or was it "only"?) friend. I almost think Mick/Amaya was the real obstacle to Mick/Ray, because they were shown to share a deeper connection, as opposed to Ray and Nate who were just broing out hilariously, most of the time (to my amusement, because I do like them both equally). That said, I will admit Ray and Nate spent a lot of episodes together (maybe a disproportionate amount).  Then again, those episodes were pretty fun.

Ultimately, I think the Ray/Mick dynamic was sacrificed a little, in terms of the screentime they got, but I don't feel totally disappointed by that as a viewer, because they still had their moments. Also, we did get a lot of Mick/Stein episodes, which were both unexpected and awesome. Personally, I wouldn't trade those for anything.

By the way, since this is the Nate thread, I wouldn't mind seeing him interact a little more with Mick (who is my favorite, and whom I want to see interacting more closely with everyone).

Anyway, I have to credit the writers for eventually finding a good balance, and I also have to credit Zano for being charming enough to make me want to like Nate, even when I didn't.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Princess Lucky
*Mick* gave him Snart's gun, not Ray.

[Miss Dee]

Oh absolutely. The fact Nate worked at all for me is 100% credit to Zano.

"More Mick" pretty much sums up everything I want for this series, though!

And I hear you about Mick/Amaya. Now that they've gone with Nate/Amaya, let's hope the finale is foreshadowing a greater concentration on the Ray/Mick relationship.

[kismet]

I don't care for Nate, but he really doesn't bother me anymore. They have corrected some of the character issues I had with him. I don't think he's necessary on the ship. Though that is more on the writers for not utilizing his historian skills more often. But I did enjoy the rotating chairs the writers did to find some new and fun pairings. I believe they have a predetermined number of people they want on the ship, so they needed to bring in a new character when they lost Snart. However, Snart/WM and Nate/NZ are just completely different characters. I think the writers struggled to bring him into the fold in a non-condescending fashion. He did not have the history of relationship that Snart had to the other characters or the Flarrowverse itself. They very much forced Nate into a lot of the plot and relationships. I personally do not respond well to characters that I feel are being forced upon me.

I do think he is very similar to Ray. However, I think Ray is the more superior character because of his depth and variety. Nate comes off a little one dimensional at times. Then again, some writers were able to give Nate a little more depth, so perhaps it will be a work in progress.

As for Nate/Amaya, romance was never a strong suit of Flarrowverse. Most if not all of their romances are rather cringeworthy, questionable or devoid of chemistry. The few that are tolerable, I credit more the actors than the writing. I don't think I ever wanted or needed Nate/Amaya, but I think Amaya was always going to be linked romantically to one of the main cast. They filled her dance card with all of eligible men, and settled on Nate. I think it had to do more with his Grandfather's connection to the Justice League than anything else. Now they can write them off as a duo and send them on a Justice League themed mission. My biggest issue with their romance, was how inappropriate their timing was. Even by cheesy and tropey standards the way they got together was completely gobsmacking and ill-timed.

[Featherhat]

21 hours ago, kismet said:

As for Nate/Amaya, romance was never a strong suit of Flarrowverse. Most if not all of their romances are rather cringeworthy, questionable or devoid of chemistry. The few that are tolerable, I credit more the actors than the writing. I don't think I ever wanted or needed Nate/Amaya, but I think Amaya was always going to be linked romantically to one of the main cast. They filled her dance card with all of eligible men, and settled on Nate. I think it had to do more with his Grandfather's connection to the Justice League than anything else. Now they can write them off as a duo and send them on a Justice League themed mission. My biggest issue with their romance, was how inappropriate their timing was. Even by cheesy and tropey standards the way they got together was completely gobsmacking and ill-timed.

Yeah it was mostly the OMG! we have wet Clothes so we have to get them off right away and then cant resist having sexing right there and then. Meh.

Ray being all "shenanigans and Yoohoo"  as an acknowledgement of such was in the end  endearing to team mates.

Sara went through a tightrope  of guilt this season and eventually survived it. I kind of wish she and Oliver Queen could have met somewhere and talked about their assassin issues because they might have been able to absolve  both their issues (not romantic)

[johntfs]

21 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Yeah it was mostly the OMG! we have wet Clothes so we have to get them off right away and then cant resist having sexing right there and then. Meh.

I kind of like the way romantic relationships occur on Legends.  There's not really any the whole "Twu Wuv 4eva" stuff (except with the Hawks and they're gone).  Nate and Amaya hooked up in the moment and stayed together because they clicked and really liked each other.  They might stay together.  They might break up.  It's cool either way.

[Miss Dee]

I thought the getting together during a mission was incredibly stupid, but otherwise I agree with @jhlipton. I just wish they'd taken a different route to get there.

The writers could have done everything almost exactly they way they did; just have Nate and Amaya tempted in the tent, maybe going so far as to kiss and fondle, then decide that they had to stop because they were on a mission and a teammate was in trouble. At the end of the episode, once they're back on board ship and the crisis is over, they disappear for some sexytimes and then go right into the Christmas party as written.

The logic still works; you still get your sexy scenes; you just don't have to convince me that by-the-book Amaya would be knocking boots with Nate when she's on the job and her buddy Mick is a prisoner of the enemy. I could see Nate being that clueless - "mission"-type work and its rules are still new to him - but not Justice Society-trained Amaya.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I agree with @jhlipton.

Thanks for that but I think you mean @johntfs.  We look a lot alike!

Edited June 27, 2017 by jhlipton

[Miss Dee]

Dammit, how'd I get that wrong? Thanks!

[jhlipton]

Like I say, we look a lot alike!  LOL

[Princess Lucky]

19 hours ago, johntfs said:

I kind of like the way romantic relationships occur on Legends.  There's not really any the whole "Twu Wuv 4eva" stuff (except with the Hawks and they're gone).  Nate and Amaya hooked up in the moment and stayed together because they clicked and really liked each other.  They might stay together.  They might break up.  It's cool either way.

Agreed. That's why the chemistry between Zano and MR-S was important. When a CW show sets up that true love crap, it's usually mushy and boring and the acting can't really save the writing. But when it's just a random hookup, which then leads to feelings, all you need is a dumb premise (check) and believable physical chemistry between the actors (check). I would have preferred their convo about "modern courting" to have taken place, say, one episode earlier, just to set it up a little better, and I agree with @Miss Dee that maybe they could have saved the sex until after the mission (though I appreciate the justification of "we can't do anything in these wet clothes, so we have nothing to do for the next couple of hours"), but I didn't mind it. It would have been kind of quaint for them to stop at one kiss. That's another reason why I liked the randomness. If they were having that "true love" moment, a romantic first time, they'd want to take it slow, etc. But since this was just about their mutual attraction, of course they'd go all the way. That's the point of a hook-up.

I mostly liked that the writers strengthened their connection after their sexual encounter. Instead of being like "OK, Nate and Amaya are a couple now", they gave them both conflict and intimacy. By the end of the season, I was all for it.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

I mostly liked that the writers strengthened their connection after their sexual encounter. Instead of being like "OK, Nate and Amaya are a couple now", they gave them both conflict and intimacy. By the end of the season, I was all for it.

I've either liked or come around to like almost all of the couplings on LoT.  The careful dance of trust between Snart and Sara that seemed to be leading toward intimacy.  The ultimately abortive romance between  Ray and Kendra.  Sara seducing history's women and being such a "Jane Bond" guy about it.  Even Nate and Amaya won me over.

The only coupling I've genuinely rooted against was that with the Hawks, and that was the one that was most like "True Love."  In which case give me fake love every time.  I was really rooting for Ray and Kendra, mostly for the sake of Kendra.  Like, "You go, Hawkgirl.  Fuck Reincarnation Destiny Love Curses.  You grab that dorky ex-billionaire with both hands.  He's not going to treat you like shit.  Unlike certain other winged boyfriends over the 5000 years I could mention."  I know we were supposed to feel happy that the Hawks would be able to live and love out from under the scenery-chewing shadow of Vandal Savage, but I didn't.  It felt like a defeat.  Really, it felt like a surrender, like Kendra was finally giving in and bowing down under the weight and habit off all those "Kendras" before her.

So, in the wake of that, I'm kind of glad to see Nate and Amaya basically tell destiny to "fuck off" for a while because they'll get around to it when and if they get around to it.

I did find it interesting that it was Ray who brought up the destiny stuff to Nate because it was Ray who ended up sucking the nasty end of the destiny Popsicle with Kendra.

Edited June 27, 2017 by johntfs

[Proteus]

Sorry. My feelings on Nate haven't changed. I still hate him and wish he'd leave.

I don't think Amaya and Nate have any chemistry. I feel like they were only paired because there's a CW rule that attractive people have to hook up with someone so why not the two newbs just pair up together.

I find the relationship forced and one of the worst things about season 2. I hope it ends next season.

Aside from Sara/Snart, no romantic relationships on Legends has worked for me. And I'm tired of the running joke of Sara hooking up with random women through history.

I still feel Nate adds nothing to the team. The strong man character on teams is usually the most useless member on super hero teams. I also don't buy that the team can't get by without his suppose great knowledge of history.

I will always resent that Mick/Ray was dropped so Ray and Nate can be BFFs. Same goes for taking Amaya away from Mick for Nate.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Proteus

[Lady Calypso]

What I appreciate about Nate by the season finale is that they finally gave him traits that didn't just remind me of Ray. He got to be a little snarky, but he also got to be just as annoyed with Ray. It allowed him to be fleshed out a little more when they stopped making him a Ray double, and I'm hoping that it continues. 

As for Nate/Amaya, I didn't love them together, but I also didn't hate them. I actually found that they gave it a happy medium. They're not promoted as true love or whatever. but they definitely settled with the idea that they want to be together for now, because they're still exploring their relationship so screw destiny. They literally have time on their side for now. It's not that Maisie and Nick have insane amounts of chemistry, but they have something there, which is nice. The initial sleeping together episode was pretty stupid, and it kind of forced the pairing to be jump started, but they handled the remaining episodes with them quite nicely. 

[BkWurm1]

On 6/27/2017 at 11:56 AM, johntfs said:

The only coupling I've genuinely rooted against was that with the Hawks, and that was the one that was most like "True Love."  In which case give me fake love every time.  I was really rooting for Ray and Kendra, mostly for the sake of Kendra.  Like, "You go, Hawkgirl.  Fuck Reincarnation Destiny Love Curses.  You grab that dorky ex-billionaire with both hands.  He's not going to treat you like shit.  Unlike certain other winged boyfriends over the 5000 years I could mention."  I know we were supposed to feel happy that the Hawks would be able to live and love out from under the scenery-chewing shadow of Vandal Savage, but I didn't.  It felt like a defeat.  Really, it felt like a surrender, like Kendra was finally giving in and bowing down under the weight and habit off all those "Kendras" before her.

So, in the wake of that, I'm kind of glad to see Nate and Amaya basically tell destiny to "fuck off" for a while because they'll get around to it when and if they get around to it.

I did find it interesting that it was Ray who brought up the destiny stuff to Nate because it was Ray who ended up sucking the nasty end of the destiny Popsicle with Kendra.

2

 

I couldn't get behind Ray and Kendra because it seemed clear almost immediately Ray was going to get his heart broke and I didn't want that for him after one dead fiance and Felicity preferring Jello to him.  (And then Oliver, which I can approve of even while I feel bad for Ray).  And the show was just that much more cruel in prolonging it after even Ray realized that Kendra not wanting ANYTHING from their life together those years they were trapped in the past probably meant HE didn't mean as much to her as he'd thought either.  

I wanted to like the Hawks but they killed him off before I got past my issues and ultimately, because of the Hawks, Ray was going to get badly used.  Plus they just didn't sell it.  I'm thinking they should have kept Hawkman alive longer and skipped Ray and Kendra altogether.  Maybe that would have helped.  Maybe not.  Hard to tell.  They definitely should have avoided any romantic hints between Vandal and Kendra.  Just yuck. 

I'm not invested in Nate and Amaya (I tend to think she's too good for him) but at least I don't feel like she has one foot out the door even with destiny hanging over her head.  Ray and Kendra was a relationship that was always out of balance, with Ray loving harder and faster, but I believe Nate and Amaya are both all in for their relationship.  It might not last but I believe in the them of the moment at least.  I never did with Ray and Kendra.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Princess Lucky]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm not invested in Nate and Amaya (I tend to think she's too good for him) but at least I don't feel like she has one foot out the door even with destiny hanging over her head.  Ray and Kendra was a relationship that was always out of balance, with Ray loving harder and faster, but I believe Nate and Amaya are both all in for their relationship.  It might not last but I believe in the them of the moment at least.  I never did with Ray and Kendra.  

I agree. Both in that it was kind of obvious that Ray and Kendra weren't going to last, and in that Nate and Amaya seem to have a more balanced relationship (I did like that initially Nate seemed to be a little more into Amaya than she was into him, but I read that as a subversive take, with the "modern" dude being all attached and the "traditional" woman from the 40s being all chill. It soon became clear that Amaya liked Nate just as much.).

I also agree that Nate/Amaya is a pairing that feels believable, if only for now. If you told me that, at the end of the season, Nate goes back in time with Amaya and ultimately becomes Vixen's grandpa, I'd believe it. And if you told me Nate and Amaya decide to go their separate ways, after a lovely relationship, because they realize their destinies are meant to lead them in different directions? I'd believe that too. That's the type of relationship I can appreciate. It feels like they're making their own decisions, based on their own feelings, instead of following a by-the-numbers plot.

On 10/7/2017 at 4:59 PM, Lady Calypso said:

What I appreciate about Nate by the season finale is that they finally gave him traits that didn't just remind me of Ray. He got to be a little snarky, but he also got to be just as annoyed with Ray. It allowed him to be fleshed out a little more when they stopped making him a Ray double, and I'm hoping that it continues. 

As for Nate/Amaya, I didn't love them together, but I also didn't hate them. I actually found that they gave it a happy medium. They're not promoted as true love or whatever. but they definitely settled with the idea that they want to be together for now, because they're still exploring their relationship so screw destiny. They literally have time on their side for now. It's not that Maisie and Nick have insane amounts of chemistry, but they have something there, which is nice. The initial sleeping together episode was pretty stupid, and it kind of forced the pairing to be jump started, but they handled the remaining episodes with them quite nicely. 

I agree with all this, as well. It was a good idea to make Nate a little snarkier, as opposed to Ray who's more bouncy and peppy. That way, Nate became less "Ray no.2" and more "a guy who has a lot of things in common with Ray, that's why they're buddies".

And that's how I see the chemistry between Maisie and Nick, as well. It's not exactly explosive or physical or anything, but it's a nice, warm, pleasant connection. They're sweet together, and they're both likeable performers individually, so I enjoy watching them.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

And that's how I see the chemistry between Maisie and Nick, as well. It's not exactly explosive or physical or anything, but it's a nice, warm, pleasant connection. They're sweet together, and they're both likeable performers individually, so I enjoy watching them.

One of the cool things about Amaya and Nate is the way their relationship has a lot of "this is how real people have a romantic relationship."  There's no grand declarations of their love being the "superest-duperest-ooperest-pooperest-truerest" love in the history of forever with orchestral music spontaneously playing while rose petals appear from thin air where they walk.

[scarynikki12]

I think I'd find Nate more tolerable if they hadn't presented him as a generic historian, but as having a specialty.  If Nate were presented as an expert in, say, France during the Renaissance, then it would make sense that he wouldn't be Historical Guy when the team is in Japan, or PT Barnum's early circus days, or Prohibition Al Capone, or whenever they find themselves that isn't his area.  Then it would make sense for him to not step up with pertinent facts or opinions because he wouldn't know them.  But they act like Historian Nate, when it's time for him to show up, knows everything about every era they visit when that isn't how it works.  Every real life historian may be interested in history generally but they all have specific areas of study for their classes, books, lectures, etc.  I get this is tv shorthand (the same tv shorthand that didn't bother to make Nate resemble someone who actually has hemophilia-no bruises, joint inflammation, nothing) to give him relevance for joining the team, and their main goal was to eventually make him Steel but they could have put a little more effort into it.  Especially since Nate comes across as a guy who doesn't actually care about history (other than the Arthur episode where suddenly he was concerned about the authenticity of their clothing and stuff) even though he studied long enough to earn his PhD. 

My hope is that he goes to the background and we get back to the other characters.

[kismet]

@scarynikki12 that would have made some sense. Everyone else seems to have specialty. And it would not have even been that hard to put it somewhere in the script. Of "hey Nate... why do you know so little about X, well that's because I specialized in Y. Ok, thx."

Nate's love of history and desire to save it is why he found Oliver in the first place wasn't it?? Sometimes I think they forget why they made Nate a historian.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

Nate's love of history and desire to save it is why he found Oliver in the first place wasn't it?? Sometimes I think they forget why they made Nate a historian.

I think it's more that they stopped caring that they made Nate a historian.  It was kind of necessary to get him in place to find Oliver and the Waverider, but beyond that it's only really cropped up for plot reasons (the George Lucas episode) and otherwise been less than useful.

[Sakura12]

I don't know who's idea it was to turn Nate into such a dumbass. He wasn't nearly as stupid last season as he is this season. I'm not sure, but I don't think Nate was as popular as the writers want him to be. So this new character flaw they put on him is not going to help matters. It looks like they keep trying to turn him into Ray 2.0. (Ray was the one leaving tech behind and screwing up). Only Ray has a dorky charm that's endearing while Nate is dude bro frat boy and that is not as charming to some people.

Then we have Nate and Amaya. I hated Ray and Kendra but I at least saw their relationship was about more than sex, while that is all Nate talks about when he's with Amaya. They need to stop making Nate dumb and give some depth to him and to his relationship with Amaya that has nothing to do with him getting to sleep with her. 

[Miss Dee]

I dunno - certain sites out there will bite your head off if you ever dare suggest Nate is less than perfect. I think he's pretty popular with younger viewers (and Nick Zano is hot, so I can understand it).

[Sakura12]

I know there are people that like Nate. They get really defensive about him. He's the typical good looking alpha male character that have been around forever. 

He's just such a shallow character right now. The backstory they gave doesn't match with what I see on screen. 

I just think his tracking isn't that popular otherwise that shot of Nate and Wally in the trailer would've been a bigger deal. I barely saw any mentions of that. 

[scarynikki12]

I agree that Nate has his fans but fell below general expectations. I think they wanted to make him the new lead/lead male and changed course when the audience didn’t go nuts for him.  If Nate had taken off the way he was set up to (his costume is too Captain America to imply otherwise) then Sara would probably just be the pilot and captain in name only and every episode would have Nate front and center rather than mixing focus among the characters. 

[kismet]

Nate is like the Laurel of the show in many ways. He has his diehard fans & haters. But he generally doesn't seem as universally loved and admired as the writers think he should be or expected him to be. So they never really know how to fix/tweak/enhance his characterization, because they either don't understand the criticism, disagree with the critics, or likely can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm also going to throw some blame on Zano. Because as attractive as he is physically, I don't think it makes up for his less than stellar acting choices. He's no matinee idol or adonis that I'll allow to be an idiot because he is so gorgeous. He just doesn't seem like he wants Nate to be anything but a silly dude frat bro. He adds little depth or complexity to his character. Say what you will about Ray & BR, but I always think he took the criticisms and tried to work with them. He seemed to want to make Ray a better character. DP always adds layer to Rory, even if its another layer of humor/tone. Their characters feel multi-dimensional even if they are only being used in a specific trope/cliche. I feel like Zano wants to be Macho Steel Man and fails to see that not everyone is clamoring to be with or hit the Tin man with no heart.

[Lady Calypso]

I also feel like the show isn't giving Nate any depth. He was such an interesting character when he first appeared last season. They had so much to work with in terms of his backstory, and they seemed to throw it all out the window the moment he got powers. Next thing we know, they'll probably throw in a line about Nate playing football as a kid, even though that would make no sense in terms of what we know about him. 

I just think that they are trying to make him the new Ray. With Ray, I didn't really like him at first. His season on Arrow really turned me off, and season 1 didn't do many favours when they kept making him the screw up. Season 2 was when I finally warmed to him, and now he's pretty good. But maybe that's because they passed the idiot stick to Nate, but aren't trying to really make him likable either. 

I think that Zano does try to give Nate layers. For example, when Nate becomes irritated or somewhat serious, I like him. It's when he tries to be Macho, or is given the silly storylines, that's when I dislike him the most.

[Sakura12]

Also Nate, when someone is making you homemade donuts, the proper response is "Thank you", not "Ugh why, no one makes donuts in 2017" 

[legaleagle53]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Also Nate, when someone is making you homemade donuts, the proper response is "Thank you", not "Ugh why, no one makes donuts in 2017" 

No kidding. If I had been Amaya, Nate would have been WEARING that batter by the end of the scene!

[Sakura12]

That's why I didn't feel bad for him when he said Amaya left him for no reason. Maybe she left you because you are an ungrateful brat. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Also Nate, when someone is making you homemade donuts, the proper response is "Thank you", not "Ugh why, no one makes donuts in 2017" 

I'm totally with you on this one. And then he tells her to "give up; we can buy store bought donuts". Like...maybe you could HELP her make the donuts, and make it a bonding experience, instead of telling her to give up just because it's hard? 

[KirkB]

On 10/23/2017 at 0:41 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I'm totally with you on this one. And then he tells her to "give up; we can buy store bought donuts". Like...maybe you could HELP her make the donuts, and make it a bonding experience, instead of telling her to give up just because it's hard?

Or at the very least, offer to clean up.

I mean, seriously, if I hadn't been burned out on Nate last season that scene would have turned me against him.

It's really no wonder Amaya left him. I know that wasn't actually the reason but still...

[Miss Dee]

Like Nate or Hate Nate: you gotta give Zano props; that was mighty hilarious high acting tonight.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Miss Dee