S12.E01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, @SueB pointed out one of the visions were of Meg (I didn't remember that, but trust she is right), and I'm not sure why he would feel guilty about her. That's not to say I didn't like the character, but it's not like she was really their friend or an innocent or that she was dead because of him. Look at all the shit she pulled before she decided to switch teams for her own survival and she chose to stay behind and give herself up so she could take her shot at Crowley. So, I got nothin'.

I was thinking Madison would have been more appropriate for Sam, but maybe that was too long ago.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I was thinking Madison would have been more appropriate for Sam, but maybe that was too long ago.

That would've made sense too, except we didn't actually see her death onscreen. Maybe that's what the criteria was, in the end?

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That would've made sense too, except we didn't actually see her death onscreen. Maybe that's what the criteria was, in the end?

Very possible.  Did we see Meg's?  I remember Meg telling Sam to save her unicorn (or something like that), but did Sam actually see Crowley kill Meg?  Eh, that was too long ago.  I've slept since then.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Very possible.  Did we see Meg's?  I remember Meg telling Sam to save her unicorn (or something like that), but did Sam actually see Crowley kill Meg?  Eh, that was too long ago.  I've slept since then.  ;-)

I don't really remember. Maybe that wasn't Meg? I'd have to rewatch it to be certain, and I'm not really that invested in knowing right now.

[Partly]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now thinking of this another way - perhaps it was that "it's all your fault" which inspired Sam to fake slicing his throat?  Because after all they've been through, he knew that's something Dean would never say to him, and that allowed some rational part of his mind to take back control. 

Bolded and italicized because that's how much I love this thought!

The easiest lies to believe are those that you fear are true.  Both boys fall so easily for lies that match their own self-doubts. Dean always believes the "no one loves you, they will always leave you, you are nothing" lies and Sam always believes the "you are tainted, you are a monster, you cause everyone pain" lies.  It would be really nice for the boys to be able to recognize that and move beyond it.  At the very least, it will make the bad guys job harder.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Why Do The British Men Of Letters Even Need Supernatural's Sam And Dean?

The Winchesters are back and we have so many questions.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand why this would piss you off though?  I mean, in addition to Sam being on some heavy duty hallucinogenic drugs, he's been tortured, so his body is reeling from that also (which makes him more susceptible to the drugs, I think).  He may also be dehydrated (in spite of the shower) and how long's it been since he ate?  His mind is obviously playing some dirty tricks on him, thanks to Lady CanIRipHerTongueOutNow.  In the past, Sam thought his greatest "sin" was letting Dean down.

Now thinking of this another way - perhaps it was that "it's all your fault" which inspired Sam to fake slicing his throat?  Because after all they've been through, he knew that's something Dean would never say to him, and that allowed some rational part of his mind to take back control. 

I can see Sam scheming to smash the mirror and use the glass to fake out Lady McTorturer once he saw the camera, that perhaps it was always a part of his plan. So the drug complicated the implementation of his plan. Or he figured it out on the fly.

As to the part I've bolded:

Those drugs didn't cause Sam to hallucinate things that didn't happen or that weren't said. It caused Sam to see and hear actual memories of things he experienced. Sam witnessed the deaths of Kevin, Sarah, Dean, Meg, and Mary, although in the case of Mary burning on the ceiling, I find it dubious that Sam's 6 month old brain really registered her death but whatever). Next, he remembers Jessica's death followed by Dean's bloodied and beaten face as he's slumped on the Impala, reminding the audience of Samifer nearly killing Dean and of Sam's sacrifice in Swan Song..again.

The only vocal memory, aside from screams of the people he watched die, the audience sees Sam "hear"  is Dean telling Sam he's a monster, a freak, that it's all his fault and everyone is dead because of him. All of those are things Dean has both said and not said but ARE things that Sam did hear, that Sam REMEMBERS whether it's the  Zachariah manipulated voice mail that to this day Sam doesn't know was false, or Dean's own words out of context or even Sam's own latent memories of his demon blood detox experience.  Sam smashing the mirror and putting the shard of glass to his throat was framed around Dean's words and was  intended to make the audience believe those memories drove Sam to suicide, for the sake of the fake-out.

If that framing was  intended to have me believe Sam was surviving or inspired FOR Dean, to honor Dean, it failed.  It came across for me,  that Sam was surviving IN SPITE of Dean's words ; to prove Dean wrong about all terrible things he remembers Dean saying.  I mean sure that could be seen as motivating for Sam but not particularly kind to Dean, IMO.  To what purpose, I don't know.

It's a bit like "Sacrifice" speech, which IMO was one worst written examples of supposed guilt I've ever seen. I know the intention was for me to think Sam was so guilt ridden that it didn't matter if he died. Unfortunately, for this viewer it all came across as Sam was holding Dean responsible for Sam letting him down rather than Sam holding himself responsible for letting Dean down.  As always, mileage varies.

As as aside,  for all the stuff Singer and Dabb keep saying about not wanting to retread old territory they sure do keep going back to Sam's past from s4 and s5. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It caused Sam to see and hear actual memories of things he experienced. Sam witnessed the deaths of Kevin, Sarah, Dean, Meg, and Mary, although in the case of Mary burning on the ceiling, I find it dubious that Sam's 6 month old brain really registered her death but whatever). Next, he remembers Jessica's death followed by Dean's bloodied and beaten face as he's slumped on the Impala, reminding the audience of Samifer nearly killing Dean and of Sam's sacrifice in Swan Song..again.

I think Sam saw a re-enactment of Mary burning on the ceiling in All Hell Breaks Loose I. Also, I thought the scene of Dean was when he died in No Rest For the Wicked. Basically, IMO, they were all times someone died for Sam, in one way or another. Although, not sure what Meg has to do with that.

Edited October 18, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

It would be really nice for the boys to be able to recognize that and move beyond it.

I'm hopeful that Dean, at least, has moved beyond some of his insecurities. He told amara in the finale that Sam needs him. I believed it. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If that framing was  intended to have me believe Sam was surviving or inspired FOR Dean, to honor Dean, it failed.

I don't think it was Sam surviving either FOR Dean (he still doesn't even know Dean is alive yet, so that wouldn't make sense to me) or to honor Dean.  I think it just served to give Sam a moment of clarity that allowed him to take some control of his mind back, that's all - kind of like how the 'ghost girl' and dead people haunting Dean during his Djinn induced dream inspired him to break free.  

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean sure that could be seen as motivating for Sam but not particularly kind to Dean, IMO.

I did not interpret that scene as unkind to Dean at all.  That scene was not even about Dean at all.  Imo, it was only about Sam and the drugs messing with Sam's head.  

[Diane]

Question I saw asked somewhere else, what happened to angel radio, why couldn't Sam pray to Castiel?  Help me out to remember if this has been addressed, old and my memory sometimes sucks.

[DittyDotDot]

That's a good question, @Diane, I don't know that anything happened to angel radio.

BTW, I really hate how the angels call it angel radio now. I mean, Dean, yeah, but the angels at large, it's just silly, IMO.

[Diane]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

That's a good question, @Diane, I don't know that anything happened to angel radio.

BTW, I really hate how the angels call it angel radio now. I mean, Dean, yeah, but the angels at large, it's just silly, IMO.

I agree, with Dean it was funny, but angels just no.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

think Sam saw a re-enactment of Mary burning on the ceiling in All Hell Breaks Loose I. Also, I thought the scene of Dean was when he died in No Rest For the Wicked. Basically, IMO, they were all times someone died for Sam, in one way or another. Although, not sure what Meg has to do with that.

Whilst it might seem like I'm nitpicking, I think there is a distinction between dying FOR someone and dying BECAUSE of someone.   I don't really know why it's just these handful of people. I'm not seeing a clear common thread.  If it was those who died for Sam I can see why Meg was included but why not Jo and Ellen who blew themselves up so Sam and Dean could escape to kill Lucifer.  Jessica didn't die FOR Sam she died because of knowing him.

I realize that was Dean in No Rest for the Wicked which is why I listed him with Kevin and Sarah.  Sam also saw Dean slumped next to the Impala in Swan Song which is when Sam started remembering all the terrible things Dean said or he thought Dean said. Strange jumping off point for that part of the scenario.

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

did not interpret that scene as unkind to Dean at all.  That scene was not even about Dean at all.  Imo, it was only about Sam and the drugs messing with Sam's head.  

They used Sam's negative memories about Dean as a plot device to  motivate Sam to do what he did. Being disappointed with how they used Dean to further Sam's plot in the episode =/= me thinking the scene was about Dean. 

[SueB]

3 hours ago, bethy said:

Lady ForgotAbouttheBostonTeaParty

Ha!  I love this one.  

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Whilst it might seem like I'm nitpicking, I think there is a distinction between dying FOR someone and dying BECAUSE of someone.   I don't really know why it's just these handful of people. I'm not seeing a clear common thread.  If it was those who died for Sam I can see why Meg was included but why not Jo and Ellen who blew themselves up so Sam and Dean could escape to kill Lucifer.  Jessica didn't die FOR Sam she died because of knowing him.

I believe I said, more or less.

[Bessie]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They used Sam's negative memories about Dean as a plot device to  motivate Sam to do what he did. Being disappointed with how they used Dean to further Sam's plot in the episode =/= me thinking the scene was about Dean. 

They do that a lot and I wish they wouldn't either. They dedicated an entire episode to Dean's negative memories of Sam and John (the one where the boys bounced around heaven; I've forgotten the title) to bring him low. But character motivation is important and their individual interpretations of a shared history have an impact on it. At least in that scene, Sam was whacked.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I believe I said, more or less.

I was referring to this comment.  I think I must have overlooked a different comment. My apologies. . 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

think Sam saw a re-enactment of Mary burning on the ceiling in All Hell Breaks Loose I. Also, I thought the scene of Dean was when he died in No Rest For the Wicked. Basically, IMO, they were all times someone died for Sam, in one way or another. Although, not sure what Meg has to do with that.

Edited 1 hour ago by DittyDotDot.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Being disappointed with how they used Dean to further Sam's plot in the episode =/= me thinking the scene was about Dean. 

Okay.  I can understand you being disappointed that this is what was used to either motivate Sam or further the plot (tired of that trope myself!), but that's not how "I mean sure that could be seen as motivating for Sam but not particularly kind to Dean, IMO." comes across.  By shifting the focus of that scene, from Sam's hallucinations and feelings to how Dean was portrayed (and only in Sam's head while on drugs!  Not For Real) it becomes very much about Dean, whether intentional or not.    

Edited October 18, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

Question I saw asked somewhere else, what happened to angel radio, why couldn't Sam pray to Castiel?  Help me out to remember if this has been addressed, old and my memory sometimes sucks.

I'm unclear as to what powers Cas retains. I know he can't teleport. Maybe angel radio no longer exists either?

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'm unclear as to what powers Cas retains. I know he can't teleport. Maybe angel radio no longer exists either?

It is unclear because back when Cass was human he could hear angel radio, in the sense he could hear the angels talking to each other, but he couldn't hear Dean's prayers for some reason. It's all very, works-except-for-when-it-doesn't.

[catrox14]

Thinking more, I wonder if that drug didn't also have a spell component that was targeted for Sam to only remember the negative things Dean said.  That would actually make a lot more sense as to why it would be those specific things instead of I dunno, all the shitty things Lucifer ever said to him.  Or encouraging things and words of love from Dean to Sam that have taken place over the years.  Hmmm.

 

2 minutes ago, Bessie said:

They do that a lot and I wish they wouldn't either. They dedicated an entire episode to Dean's negative memories of Sam and John (the one where the boys bounced around heaven; I've forgotten the title) to bring him low. But character motivation is important and their individual interpretations of a shared history have an impact on it. At least in that scene, Sam was whacked.

That was Dark Side of the Moon.  Those weren't really negative memories for the brother that had the memories. They were happy memories from their own personal viewpoint which had negative connotations for the other.  I didn't mind that because it was during the run of the Apocalpyse and they had been at odds for most of 2 seasons off and on.

This time it came as a shock to me  given that Dabb and Singer are trying to say the boys are together and have been since the start of s11; that they aren't trying to go back over old ground. Welp, right out of the gate they go back to old ground for Sam and kind of old ground for Dean with Mary but it's not really old ground because we learned more about Mary and John. 

 

Oh, I just realized why I'm more annoyed with the episode than pleased.   Dean was a rolling plot device disguised as a badass!Dean but not when he really needed to be badass.  Cas was a similar plot but at least he is being reconnoitered Cas back to badass!Cas.

I'm grateful Dean had some wonderful emotional beats with Mary and Cas which I really appreciated to make his turn of rolling plot device/character propping more palatable.

Dean became a plot device when he failed to turn off the location tracker on the vet's phone after  he's just easily hacked a  security camera. But hey badass!Dean because he broke the phone but not the guy delivering the threats to the vet or the mechanic, that was for Cas, which again I don't mind because it's resetting Cas to badass!Cas. But not turning off the location tracker sets up Henchwoman to find them.  He's a plot device when he fails to use his gun so that Henchwoman can use her Magical Brass Knuckles to beat down Dean and Cas setting up Mary's kill. But hey badass!Dean got a lick in before she took him down. Yay.  

Thank gods for Jensen acting chops to make his being a plot device interesting. 

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay.  I can understand you being disappointed that this is what was used to either motivate Sam or further the plot (tired of that trope myself!), but that's not how "I mean sure that could be seen as motivating for Sam but not particularly kind to Dean, IMO." comes across.  By shifting the focus of that scene, from Sam's hallucinations and feelings to how Dean was portrayed (and only in Sam's head while on drugs!  Not For Real) it becomes very much about Dean, whether intentional or not.    

The scene remains about Sam and I can still hold the opinion that the use of Dean as a plot device in that scene was not kind to Dean.  Both can exist when discussing how the scene played out for this viewer.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking more, I wonder if that drug didn't also have a spell component that was targeted for Sam to only remember the negative things Dean said.  That would actually make a lot more sense as to why it would be those specific things instead of I dunno, all the shitty things Lucifer ever said to him.  Or encouraging things and words of love from Dean to Sam that have taken place over the years.

TBH, I think the reason we heard Dean's voice there is because the show probably couldn't afford or get all those people to come back in and ADR, "It's your fault, Sam. I'm dead because of you." Whereas, they have access to Dean's voice regularly and doesn't cost them anything extra to have him walk over to the sound truck and record a few lines. I really don't think it was meant to be Dean reminding Sam of what a terrible person he is, but just that his mind is playing tricks on him until he finds a way to overcome it all.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I think the reason we heard Dean's voice there is because the show probably couldn't afford or get all those people to come back in and ADR, "It's your fault, Sam. I'm dead because of you." Whereas, they have access to Dean's voice regularly and doesn't cost them anything extra to have him walk over to the sound truck and record a few lines. I really don't think it was meant to be Dean reminding Sam of what a terrible person he is, but just that his mind is playing tricks on him until he finds a way to overcome it all.

Even if Dean is speaking for the collective due to ADR limitations, the end result is that it's Dean, the most important person in Sam's life who Sam hears saying those awful things that he's heard from Dean before if in a different context. I don't think it was intended for it be anyone other than Dean for Sam to hear in that situation.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Oh, I just realized why I'm more annoyed with the episode than pleased.   Dean was a rolling plot device

Other than Crowley`s little side plot, this episode basically featured two plots: Mary`s resurrection and Sam`s torture by Lady Deadeyes. That means the featured character in those respective plots were Mary and Sam. Dean and Cas, to a degree, played a supporting role in the Mary plot and Lady Deadeyes the supporting role in Sam`s. I don`t really count goons and "muscles", they are kind of plot devices in and of themselves. 

Overall it means Dean is a reactionary side character in the episode. He got some emo but that was it. Now since I expected that for the ep, I wasn`t too thrown by it. Sure, it means have been a nice symmetry to make Dean the focus in the Mary plot the way they made Sam the focus in the BMOL plot but in all fairness, Mary is a much bigger legacy character and it would have been considerably harder to sideline her that way.

Do I particularly like that my favourite character only got guest-starring role? Not really but I do understand why Mary got the focus she did. At least for this episode. If this keeps happening, different ballgame..    

Quote

Even if Dean is speaking for the collective due to ADR limitations, the end result is that it's Dean, the most important person in Sam's life who Sam hears saying those awful things that he's heard from Dean before if in a different context. I don't think it was intended for it be anyone other than Dean for Sam to hear in that situation.

Normally I`m very cynical about that stuff because whenever Sam gets put under a supernatural honesty spell or gets angry enough, we get his very unflattering perspective on Dean and whenever he wants to convince Dean of something words of praise come out. The show has made it very hard for me to believe the latter because of that dichotomy.

However, we are canonically in a period where Sam thinks Dean is dead and he has every reason to think Dean died to save the world. Even for my cynical self, canon!Sam would think relatively nice things of his brother right now. So only hearing Dean`s voice is IMO not a manifestation of either Sam or even the narrative painting an unkind picture of Dean. It was a shorthand to convey the "everyone around you dies" point of the scene for hallucinating Sam and Dean was simply the voice of it. The other possible artistic choice could have been Sam`s own voice since that is often how it is done for such "guilt trips" (literal in this case) in movies and shows. But frankly, I doubt the writers are good enough even for this level of writing so they went with Dean`s voice.

They plenty screwed the character over in other parts but IMO for once not intentionally in that hallucination scene. 

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

However, we are canonically in a period where Sam thinks Dean is dead and he has every reason to think Dean died to save the world. Even for my cynical self, canon!Sam would think relatively nice things of his brother right now.

Plus they had such a nice "goodbye" before Dean went off. I'm going to continue to believe that Sam's hearing Dean had nothing to do with Dean or Sam's feelings about Dean, and everything to do with whatever the drug was combined with Sam's long-standing guilt complex that seems to pop up from time-to-time when the writers need it to. 

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, bethy said:

Plus they had such a nice "goodbye" before Dean went off. I'm going to continue to believe that Sam's hearing Dean had nothing to do with Dean or Sam's feelings about Dean, and everything to do with whatever the drug was combined with Sam's long-standing guilt complex that seems to pop up from time-to-time when the writers need it to. 

Here's what I don't get. 

I thought Sam was done with all the guilt he carried about the Apocalypse back in s7 when he told Dean that he figured all his time in Hell and saving the world made up for it.  Then in s8 he said the trials were purifying him further freeing him of his guilt.  And finally in s11 he apologized to Dean for not looking for him in s8. I would think if he was really over everything as I had been lead to believe, this drug shouldn't really affect him other than poking at memories.  Or is my police work shoddy on this recollection? It doesn't really make much sense to me

I also don't understand what that drug is supposed to help Lady DieDieDie and Her Henchwoman accomplish with Sam? What would remembering only certain people who've died or reigniting a latent guilt-complex for Sam actually do for their cause? 

Edited October 18, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

but why not Jo and Ellen who blew themselves up so Sam and Dean could escape to kill Lucifer.

It could be just because Sam didn't actually see that happen... He was hopping over a rooftop at that point I think. I guess they could've gone with the burning photograph - the one burnt as a remembrance - but that might've been too obscure, and I think the focus was mostly on Dean during that scene.

I don't know why not Pamela though... maybe because she was happy in heaven, so Sam didn't really feel any guilt over that one?

[auntvi]

Quote

31 minutes ago, bethy said:

 

Basically, IMO, they were all times someone died for Sam, in one way or another. Although, not sure what Meg has to do with that.

I think she slowed Crowley down enough for Sam & Dean & Cas to get away, sacrificing herself.

Quote

Even for my cynical self, canon!Sam would think relatively nice things of his brother right now.

So..... it's Sam's fault that he hallucinated Dean telling him negative things, like that he was a monster and freak?

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I think she slowed Crowley down enough for Sam & Dean & Cas to get away, sacrificing herself.

Yeah, but my point was, she wasn't doing it for Sam and Dean, she was taking her own shot at Crowley. IMO, Meg was never really their friend. She allied with them when it suited her purposes. She didn't really care about Sam and Dean, but was all about killing Crowley. She wasn't dead simply because she knew Sam Winchester like Jessica and Sarah and Kevin and Mary. She was a demon and got herself killed on her own terms, IMO.

Edited October 18, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, but my point was, she wasn't doing it for Sam and Dean, she was taking her own shot at Crowley. IMO, Meg was never really their friend. She allied with them when it suited her purposes. She didn't really care about Sam and Dean, but was all about killing Crowley. She wasn't dead simply because she knew Sam Winchester like Jessica and Sarah and Kevin and Mary. She was a demon and got herself killed on her own terms, IMO.

I think they would have been better served to go with Meg 1.0 in 'Are You There God, It's Me, Dean Winchester". She did blame Dean and Sam (mostly Dean for her death) but still made more sense that Meg 2.0.  She died because of Sam and Dean not for them.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they would have been better served to go with Meg 1.0 in 'Are You There God, It's Me, Dean Winchester". She did blame Dean and Sam (mostly Dean for her death) but still made more sense that Meg 2.0.  She died because of Sam and Dean not for them.

Personally, I just don't see Sam and Dean having really anything to do with either Meg's death other than they happened to be nearby when death occurred. Meg 1.0--the girl--was dead the moment the demon possessed her and that was well-before she even met Sam. Meg 2.0--the actual demon--died in an attempt to kill Crowley. It happened to benefit Sam and Dean, but she didn't do for them nor did she die because of them, IMO.

[bethy]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here's what I don't get. 

I thought Sam was done with all the guilt he carried about the Apocalypse back in s7 when he told Dean that he figured all his time in Hell and saving the world made up for it.  Then in s8 he said the trials were purifying him further freeing him of his guilt.  And finally in s11 he apologized to Dean for not looking for him in s8. I would think if he was really over everything as I had been lead to believe, this drug shouldn't really affect him other than poking at memories.  Or is my police work shoddy on this recollection? It doesn't really make much sense to me

I also don't understand what that drug is supposed to help Lady DieDieDie and Her Henchwoman accomplish with Sam? What would remembering only certain people who've died or reigniting a latent guilt-complex for Sam actually do for their cause? 

Well, my fanwank is that guilt is weird. Even when we apologize and are forgiven, it can come back up at strange times. I can see that for Sam, getting drugged by Lady Doesn'tDoHerOwnDirtyWork right after he's lost Dean, might trigger subconscious guilt. Plus maybe you're right and what we saw was just the poking. Afterall, it doesn't seem like the drug accomplished what it was supposed to since Sam broke out of it long enough to plan his escape? But honestly, I'm right there with you on not having any idea what the drug meant to do.

Frankly, I don't think the writers put that much thought into it. They wanted Sam to remember horrible things, so voila random deaths and mean words from Dean in Sam's hallucination. No real reason actually necessary, I guess.

[catrox14]

Just now, bethy said:

Frankly, I don't think the writers put that much thought into it. They wanted Sam to remember horrible things, so voila random deaths and mean words from Dean in Sam's hallucination. No real reason actually necessary, I guess.

Yeah that' seems about right.  Unless the drug acts long term and messes with Sam overtime once he's set free it seems pointless

[MysteryGuest]

I always thought Meg did sort of sacrifice herself for the cause.  She played the decoy so Sam and Dean could go after Dick Roman.  While I know they weren't friends, they had more or less aligned themselves behind their mutual cause.  I wasn't shocked her image was part of Sam's hallucination.  I also don't really put any stock in what he saw or heard, since it was all drug-induced.  

I'd like to think that by this point, Sam and Dean have made peace with their past.  That's not to say we won't have some angst filled episodes in our future, but hopefully not to the degree that we used to.  

[rue721]

Just wanted to say that while I'm delighted that they used more Black Sabbath on the soundtrack (I ALWAYS want more Black Sabbath on SPN's soundtrack!), why did they have to go and use the least Black Sabbath-y Black Sabbath song ever?

That was like the soundtrack equivalent of excitedly tearing open a Christmas present, and discovering it's some corduroy pants.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Sam was done with all the guilt he carried about the Apocalypse back in s7 when he told Dean that he figured all his time in Hell and saving the world made up for it.  Then in s8 he said the trials were purifying him further freeing him of his guilt.  And finally in s11 he apologized to Dean for not looking for him in s8. I would think if he was really over everything as I had been lead to believe, this drug shouldn't really affect him other than poking at memories.  Or is my police work shoddy on this recollection? It doesn't really make much sense to me

I think you're taking it too literally. For example, when Sam said that the Trials were purifying him, I think that he was saying he hoped that was what they were doing, and the implication was that he needed hope because he did still carry a devastating amount of guilt. Whether carrying that guilt was "rational" or not.

I also think that Sam is not very in touch with his feelings, and is kind of oblivious in general, and that's been consistent through the whole series. It's not that uncommon for him to say something and then later realize that that's not really how he feels. It's also not that uncommon for his feelings/thoughts about something to change substantially once someone else (usually Dean) gives him another perspective.

So my point is that I don't even think that Sam was actually entirely "over it" even when he said he was (I think he just wished/hoped he was or thought he should be), but even when he actually does believe what he's saying when he's saying it, it doesn't mean that that's what he's going to believe forever, anyway.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I just don't see Sam and Dean having really anything to do with either Meg's death other than they happened to be nearby when death occurred. Meg 1.0--the girl--was dead the moment the demon possessed her and that was well-before she even met Sam. Meg 2.0--the actual demon--died in an attempt to kill Crowley. It happened to benefit Sam and Dean, but she didn't do for them nor did she die because of them, IMO.

As a viewer, I feel the same way about Meg...but I actually think it's pretty in-character for Sam in particular to lump in this demon semi-ally with all the other humans he's worked with or tried to save or cared about over the years. Sam is just weird like that. If they had Dean doing that? No way. But Sam? It's still sort of questionable, but if anybody were going to lump in Meg like that or even still care about her death, itwould be Sam imo.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Well, my fanwank is that guilt is weird.

That's not even a fanwank.  That's just the way guilt/memories work.  Sometimes I still feel guilty about something that I did YEARS ago.  And even though I know I shouldn't: that I was young and stupid and have been forgiven and would never do it now  - well, I still have a moment or two of guilt.  

Also this:

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking more, I wonder if that drug didn't also have a spell component that was targeted for Sam to only remember the negative things Dean said.  That would actually make a lot more sense as to why it would be those specific things instead of I dunno, all the shitty things Lucifer ever said to him.  Or encouraging things and words of love from Dean to Sam that have taken place over the years.  Hmmm.

I agree - there had to be something in that drug cocktail that specifically triggered those bad memories for Sam as we know that when he was drugged up with "everything" in the mental hospital in Sam, Interrupted he was a "happy drunk".  

[DigitalCount]

Sam may also feel a twisted kinship with Meg because she possessed him for a good long while. In a way, he knew her like he knows only a few people.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Sam may also feel a twisted kinship with Meg because she possessed him for a good long while. In a way, he knew her like he knows only a few people.

 Do you think this would apply to him with Lucifer? That he has a kinship with Lucifer?

[Partly]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's not even a fanwank.  That's just the way guilt/memories work.

Plus it was a drug-induced hallucination.  Drugs mess everything up.  You could come up with any explanation or hidden meaning in the montage only to say that "it was a bad trip" and means exactly the opposite of what was shown.  More than that, I don't think what Sam saw was important at all. The most important thing is how he reacted to the torture.  After all, the drug was just another form of torture, and he reacted to it with the same strength and composure that he did the other forms of torture Lady Bauer throws at him. Throughout the entire process, Sam had a real sense of agency -- he was in control of his choices and exerted his will.  He may have been tired up and tortured, but he was always in control of his own actions and he made his own choices. Not only when faced with attack from the outside (hypothermia/fire) but also from the inside (hallucinations).

[DigitalCount]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Do you think this would apply to him with Lucifer? That he has a kinship with Lucifer?

Probably, although he associates the Devil with torture both topside and in the cage, so if he does it's purely Stockholm syndrome. Or who knows? Maybe once Luci bites it trying to save the boys and later Sam has a loving flashback of their time together it won't seem ridiculous, but it would certainly be sad. I would characterize his relationship with Meg differently though.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Sam may also feel a twisted kinship with Meg because she possessed him for a good long while. In a way, he knew her like he knows only a few people.

You mean because she stole his body and used it to murder people against his will? I'm not sure I'd call it kinship, myself, but this is probably the biggest reason why I just don't think Sam would be all that broke up over her death. If this was Cass, maybe, but Sam or Dean, I don't think so.

However, it doesn't really matter, I get what they were trying to do with the visions and, most likely, they used the ones they did because some others weren't actually seen on-screen, so there would be nothing to show.

As an aside, did anyone else laugh at those effects? I was calling them little fart clouds of morbid guilt. ;)

[Diane]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As an aside, did anyone else laugh at those effects? I was calling them little fart clouds of morbid guilt. ;)

Love that!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, it doesn't really matter, I get what they were trying to do with the visions and, most likely, they used the ones they did because some others weren't actually seen on-screen, so there would be nothing to show.

They didn't show Dean saying the words. They didn't have to pay the actors to come in for ADR. They made a digitally de-aged Dean in Reichenbach, so I think they could edit together bits of dialogue from the characters to have them say "It's your fault".

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So..... it's Sam's fault that he hallucinated Dean telling him negative things, like that he was a monster and freak?

No, my point was actually that Sam hallucinating Dean saying mean things to me didn`t give me the impression it was supposed to reflect some negative attitude Sam has towards Dean right now - like I said, they didn`t part on bad terms - but that instead the writers just used Dean`s voice because it was probably convenient.

[AwesomO4000]

21 hours ago, auntvi said:

So..... it's Sam's fault that he hallucinated Dean telling him negative things, like that he was a monster and freak?

I think that actually Aeryn13 was saying the opposite of this, because of this...

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So only hearing Dean`s voice is IMO not a manifestation of either Sam or even the narrative painting an unkind picture of Dean. It was a shorthand to convey the "everyone around you dies" point of the scene for hallucinating Sam and Dean was simply the voice of it. The other possible artistic choice could have been Sam`s own voice since that is often how it is done for such "guilt trips" (literal in this case) in movies and shows. But frankly, I doubt the writers are good enough even for this level of writing so they went with Dean`s voice.

Or what Aeryn said as I was writing this, and so obviously didn't need me to speak up on her/his behalf... but since I already quoted and stuff and had the stuff below to say, I'll leave it and hope it doesn't look sad in retrospect.

As for going with it being Sam's voice saying it to himself, I think the writers have gone that way a few times before with various characters - Sam in "Bloody Mary," Dean as demon Dean in season 3, Sam again as Soulless Sam in season 6, Chet as Bobby in season 7. And I want to say that there is more, but it's just not coming to me. Anyway, maybe the writers thought that they'd done that one before and so decided not to go there or as you said above it was easier.

And just as you may ask, "wait, what have you done with AwesomO?" ...

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Normally I`m very cynical about that stuff because whenever Sam gets put under a supernatural honesty spell or gets angry enough, we get his very unflattering perspective on Dean and whenever he wants to convince Dean of something words of praise come out. The show has made it very hard for me to believe the latter because of that dichotomy.

Taking this to the "All Seasons" thread and I promise to be (mostly) brief, but this one got me thinking, and I decided I had something to say (Quelle surprise... well, not really).

Edited October 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

So, I re-watched this and Mama Mia this morning and it struck me interesting how they framed Dean squatting down very similar to how they framed him the first time he delivered his line "saving people, hunting things." At the risk of becoming a broken record, nicely played Mr. Scriggia. Nicely played.

Edited October 21, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Dobian]

Wow, my first Supernatural episode where I had to fast forward through the commercials.  Though I noticed one of them was for a Supernatural convention at a hotel just up the freeway from me in December.  Maybe I'll stop in.

So at least they got rid of one of the arrogant and obnoxious Brit Bitches (Britches?).  Nice score for mom.  Now let me get this straight.  This well-organized hunter network in England has been around forever, and there have been no monster attacks over there in fifty years. So now half a century later, after the sun almost got extinguished, they suddenly decide to impart their infinite wisdom on the hacks in America?  And instead of, you know, doing some outreach to maybe help set up a similar network in the states, a little positive diplomacy, they decide to go full-on Nazi and kidnap and torture Sam while making sure he knows how much better they are.  The same people who sat around having tea and crumpets when the sun was burning out.  Great public relations move, idiots.

I liked the scenes with mom, especially when she saw Baby again.  I hope she just stays on the show.  I don't need them bringing her back just so they can take her away again so that Sam and Dean can be all sad...again.  No having her go because it just wasn't meant to be and all that crap.  "But this isn't my world, Dean, it has wifi!".  So just can it with the emotional manipulation, writers, I know you're all addicted to it like crack.  Just say no.

I liked the song they played at the end.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Dobian

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I rewatched this again - for reasons.  :)  This is one that really does just keep getting better.  There are so many layers and nuances, that I pick up something new each time.  And the early scenes with Dean and Mary and scenes with Sam smarting off never get old.  

• Lady IStillWantHerDead didn't send Cass all that far away with her angel banishing sigil.  I thought once before he got sent to the opposite side of the earth (Australia?), so I was surprised he wasn't further away.  I wonder if it's random.  He was only 3 hours from the bunker this time.  Still, did the trick, I guess.
• Each time I see it, I get more ticked that the vet guy didn't call the police after the fact.  I mean he had the money.  There was a man, bound and gagged and shot, in the back of a vehicle, and you just let that go like it's none of your business?  Write down the damn license plate and call it in.  He wouldn't even have to mention the cash.  Just say he was threatened (which he was - the driver flashed his gun).  Guy just makes me sick.
• Evil HenchBitches' pants were too short.  And - even though I'm glad about it, don't get me wrong, I certainly didn't want to see Sam suffer any more - but the HMSS chicks got no game when it comes to torture.  They were actually pretty pathetic.  That being said, they completely came prepared for torture - and didn't even try diplomacy first.  So I'm not going to buy - and I really don't want - any redemption of Lady IReallyHopeSamGetsToKillHerLikeHePromised because of her kid, and I personally hope the boys don't have to work with her in the future for any reason.  Also: makes no sense how they were able to track Dean and have HenchBitch crash into Baby even though she said something about 'location services' on Dean's phone.  They used vet jerk's phone to call the HMSS bitches, and then Dean broke it.  He didn't use his phone.  They shouldn't have been able to find him, unless they did it with Sam's phone.  Also, still don't understand why Dean didn't immediately pull his gun as soon as HenchBitch identified herself.  I understand he wanted information (Sam's location) out of her, but he could have asked at gunpoint.  Just saying.  I do think there was something about those symbols on the brass knuckles that gave she-man extra strength and ability.
• I like the return of serious, threatening, take-no-prisoners Cas.  I want him to stay.  And he doesn't trust computers.  :)  Or have a harp. :(
• I also really liked seeing a lot of smart/savvy Dean.  He hacked traffic cams (Although that made me laugh, because "a few blocks" from Lebanon, KS is all farmland.  And small towns on down the road.  Pretty sure they don't have traffic cams to catch any jaywalking cows.  Heh.)  
• There's one shower scene with Sam's hair that just bugs me.  One minute it's plastered straight down his forehead and in his eyes.  The very next cut to him, it's obviously been pushed out of his eyes.  Argh!  Again, nice fake out by Sam, but him not grabbing the cattle prod after he choked Lady JustDieNow to unconsciousness was stupid.  And no - that bitch was in no way concerned about Sam as a person actually being hurt.  Her only concern was that she wouldn't be able to get the information from him that she wanted if he was dead.  I read absolutely no compassion for him in her face.
• I think we saw Mr. Ketch in the flash sideways to HMSS catching monsters in Britain.  Or the secret society of assassins all have the cross tattoo on their hand.
• Crowley mentioned that Lucifer was weak - which is why he's jumping from vessel to vessel.  I think it's interesting to consider that (Lucifer is weak) going forward -what with the spoilers for one of the upcoming episodes.