Ms Blue Jay January 18, 2019 Share January 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gothish520 said: Charlotte was being prudent, but...if everyone you know offers to help without hesitation, the one friend who doesn't is going to look like an ass, point-blank. As an example, albeit on a much smaller scale, if you are the only person at the table not offering to pick up the dinner check, well sorry but that makes you look bad. Completely disagree. The analogy doesn't fit. If you don't offer to pick up the dinner check, you're someone who ate part of the dinner. It's 100% different than Charlotte who is just an innocent bystander to Carrie's fucked up life. Charlotte didn't spend any part of Carrie's money. She is absolutely under ZERO obligation to help Carrie out of her own self-created mess and no, I do not think she looked like an "ass". Point blank. 1 hour ago, Gothish520 said: I believe that Carrie's reaction to Charlotte not offering the money was much more nuanced than described here. Carrie was hurt that Charlotte didn't offer to help, because she felt that it was a testament to how Charlotte felt about Carrie and their friendship. It wasn't like Carrie rejected all offers because she felt that Charlotte was the only person she would ever take money from - it played out the way it did because both women were making points and letting their feelings show. Charlotte giving Carrie the ring was an apology for hurting Carrie by not offering initially (however one may feel about that). I can't agree because she didn't want "Just the Offer" of Charlotte helping. She actually wanted the money. As proven by her taking it. AND refusing Sam, Miranda, and Big's offers for bullshit reasons. She specifically wanted and TOOK Charlotte's money. She had her own reasons in her head stipulating 1) that Charlotte SHOULD give her the money and that 2) Carrie SHOULD take it. As proven by her having no qualms with going through with this. AND - doesn't Carrie actually list the reasons in the episode? I looked up the script: "So, yes, I have made some mistakes, and, Charlotte you have made some mistakes. When you were making those mistakes I was sitting across from you at the coffee shop nodding and listening and supporting you. And what kills me is, you don't even have to work. You're volunteering. What is that on your finger? I just wear it when I'm alone in my house. And you're telling me to be more independent?" Oh my god, she is just so awful. Carrie actually lays it out that she deserves Charlotte giving her the money because: 1. Charlotte's made mistakes in her life leading to the divorce. 2. Carrie's nodded along when Charlotte's made questionable life choices, therefore Charlotte should support her right back by giving her thousands of dollars. (HA! I don't recall Charlotte not listening! OH, she listened! She just didn't offer up the money!) 3. CHARLOTTE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO WORK, ACCORDING TO CARRIE. (What does that have to do with Carrie's life?!?!?) 4. Charlotte has no basis to tell Carrie to be independent because she wears a beautiful ring in the privacy of her own home. If Charlotte was "apologizing" she was bullied into it, and I don't agree with her apology. Nothing to apologize for. Simply trying to appease a bully. Edited January 18, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 15 Link to comment
Gothish520 January 18, 2019 Share January 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Completely disagree. The analogy doesn't fit. If you don't offer to pick up the dinner check, you're someone who ate part of the dinner. It's 100% different than Charlotte who is just an innocent bystander to Carrie's fucked up life. Charlotte didn't spend any part of Carrie's money. She is absolutely under ZERO obligation to help Carrie out of her own self-created mess and no, I do not think she looked like an "ass". Point blank. I can't agree because she didn't want "Just the Offer" of Charlotte helping. She actually wanted the money. As proven by her taking it. AND refusing Sam, Miranda, and Big's offers for bullshit reasons. She specifically wanted and TOOK Charlotte's money. She had her own reasons in her head stipulating 1) that Charlotte SHOULD give her the money and that 2) Carrie SHOULD take it. As proven by her having no qualms with going through with this. AND - doesn't Carrie actually list the reasons in the episode? I looked up the script: "So, yes, I have made some mistakes, and, Charlotte you have made some mistakes. When you were making those mistakes I was sitting across from you at the coffee shop nodding and listening and supporting you. And what kills me is, you don't even have to work. You're volunteering. What is that on your finger? I just wear it when I'm alone in my house. And you're telling me to be more independent?" Oh my god, she is just so awful. Carrie actually lays it out that she deserves Charlotte giving her the money because 1. Charlotte's made mistakes in her life leading to the divorce. 2. SHE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO WORK, ACCORDING TO CARRIE. (What does that have to do with Carrie's life?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?) 3. Charlotte has no basis to tell Carrie to be independent because she wears a beautiful ring in the privacy of her own home. If Charlotte was "apologizing" she was bullied into it, and I don't agree with her apology. Nothing to apologize for. Simply trying to appease a bully. I do love how we folks can see things so differently! I really enjoy talking about the show on this forum - I was decades late to the party so it's fun to hear different perspectives. I am definitely the Carrie apologist here and I think a big reason is that I can relate to her on some level - I remember when I was a screwed-up young woman making bad relationship choices. Also, I have a sister who is still doing so way past the "appropriate" age when that kind of behavior is at all understandable, lol. Folks like my sister and Carrie are good people, they just can't see past the ends of their own noses sometimes - ok, most times. But if you call them out, they usually see the error of their ways. Old habits do die hard though. Carrie wanted what she wanted, and she wanted people to be ok with that, and she wanted people to love her and think she was a good person even when she behaved otherwise. Life does not work that way, but I just can't hate her. She wasn't evil or devious or malicious - just selfish, self-absorbed, and quite unaware of that most of the time. 6 Link to comment
Melancholy January 18, 2019 Share January 18, 2019 (edited) I agree mostly with @Ms Blue Jay and her reasons for why Carrie wanted the help specifically from Charlotte. I think Carrie was very jealous of Charlotte and how Charlotte left her marriage a wealthy woman while Carrie left a relationship with her own financial troubles dogging her. I think jealousy is a subtle dynamic of the Carrie/Charlotte relationship- Charlotte is the "shiny hair, style section, Vera Wang" socialite that Carrie feels threatened by. Charlotte reaming Carrie out for cheating with married!Big right when Charlotte is about to get married furthers the Charlotte = Natasha connections. I think, generally speaking, Charlotte is who Carrie wants to be, Miranda is who Carrie wants to approve of her, and Samantha is who Carrie can relax with. I do agree with @Gothish520, though, that Carrie did know that she fucked up badly with money and Carrie also wanted the affirmation that Charlotte didn't think she was a fuck up who deserved to live in a crappy apartment and couldn't be relied on to pay a loan back. Carrie has a deep insecurity where she'll seize on how ONE person doesn't like her or doesn't think highly of her and she'll go at changing that opinion of her with relentlessness. It happens all the time- Natasha, Nina Katz, Aiden Round 2, Enid, even Carrie Fisher lol (I think that's one of the funniest scenes of the show. Half dressed, sexed up trespassing!Carrie is all "I'm a writer! You're a writer! I'm Carrie!...You're Carrie!" I die of laughter.) Edited January 18, 2019 by Melancholy 7 Link to comment
ByTor January 18, 2019 Share January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said: And what kills me is, you don't even have to work. You're volunteering. What is that on your finger? Carrie did talk about how hurt she was that Charlotte didn't offer to loan the money, but then, IMO, she passive aggressively "hinted" that Charlotte should be the one to offer her money because, as quoted, she doesn't even have to work! She didn't actually demand that the money should come from selling the ring, but IMO there sure is some subtext in "what is that on your finger?" I guess if Charlotte said back "And what is that on your feet?" she would have been out of line. AND, when Charlotte said she's volunteering because she can't find a job (even though she was under no obligation to explain herself), I would have felt like a Grade A ass. I do have to say, I am NO Charlotte fan in the late seasons. What happened that she became such a shrieky whiner? I want to smack her into next week when she ranted about how offensive "Tea for Two" is at her tap class. Regarding Carrie screaming, I think she has two especially annoying screams (yes, even worse than when she saw the squirrel). When they were talking about hot actors and she screamed when they said at the same time "Russell Crowe." That was in a restaurant, I think others eating there who were subjected to that should have been offered a free meal. The other, which IMO is the worst, was in the one where they went to a fleet week party...first she screams when her skirt blows in the wind, and then when she gets rained on. It's not even that she screamed (I probably would too if the wind blew my skirt like that or if the rain would ruin my blowout), it's how she screamed, it sounded like Alvin and the Chipmunks got injured. 2 Link to comment
Melancholy January 18, 2019 Share January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, ByTor said: I do have to say, I am NO Charlotte fan in the late seasons. What happened that she became such a shrieky whiner? I want to smack her into next week when she ranted about how offensive "Tea for Two" is at her tap class. The Tea for Two thing was silly but generally, Later Charlotte is my favorite Charlotte because of her relationship with Harry. 4 Link to comment
andromeda331 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 31 minutes ago, Melancholy said: The Tea for Two thing was silly but generally, Later Charlotte is my favorite Charlotte because of her relationship with Harry. Me too. It was so interesting to watch her trying not fall in love with Harry and changing herself to end up with him. It was huge from someone who broke up with over his choice in plates. Harry loved her too. He was happy to go along with things because it made her happy. They were a great couple. I still love Miranda explaining why she wants to marry Steve. 6 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 I love Charlotte in the later seasons. I thought Kristin Davis grew so much as an actor. This especially culminates with the incredibly powerful episode "One" in Season 6, when Charlotte experiences a miscarriage. I think all in all, that's the best episode the show has produced. (Other things happen as well. I think it's Miranda rescuing Mrs. Brady, Carrie meeting Aleks, etc.) 5 Link to comment
blondiec0332 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said: I love Charlotte in the later seasons. I thought Kristin Davis grew so much as an actor. This especially culminates with the incredibly powerful episode "One" in Season 6, when Charlotte experiences a miscarriage. I think all in all, that's the best episode the show has produced. (Other things happen as well. I think it's Miranda rescuing Mrs. Brady, Carrie meeting Aleks, etc.) I think Charlotte is the character that grew the most. I found her very prissy in the earlier seasons who saw her life ending up a certain way and then discovered happiness and fulfillment with someone unexpected. She definitely ended up with the healthiest relationship. 7 Link to comment
Gothish520 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, blondiec0332 said: I think Charlotte is the character that grew the most. I found her very prissy in the earlier seasons who saw her life ending up a certain way and then discovered happiness and fulfillment with someone unexpected. She definitely ended up with the healthiest relationship. I agree that of all the couples, Harry and Charlotte seemed the happiest. They were really great together. 4 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 11:14 PM, Camille said: I couldn't stand those two together. Throughout their entire on-again/off-again relationship, she seemed angry or annoyed with him most of the time (Steve was irritating as hell, but Miranda was a grade-A bitch). Yet literally out of nowhere, she declares she's madly in love with him and acts like a complete bitch to and about his new girlfriend. I wasn't surprised at all that marriage in the movie was strained. I liked her with Robert best, because at least when he tried to get her to loosen up, he didn't try to force the issue. Glad I’m not the only one that wasn’t on the Miranda/Steve train. Steve had a good soul at his core, but I just never got it with those two. And the first break-up with those two (after Miranda had taken a chance and opened herself up for love...after being very reticent to do so initially), left a horrid aftertaste in my mouth. Steve breaking up with her for such an immature, stupid reason as Miranda making more money than him...was the height of childishness. Their second break-up I thought was very understandable in terms of the reasonings behind it. Miranda realized that her and Steve just weren’t meant to be—she felt he wasn’t mature enough to handle the responsibilities he was seeking from her (a family...hell he wasn’t even taking care of puppy Scout), and Miranda just realized that her romantic happiness lied elsewhere. That’s where I think their romantic story should’ve ended. It made zero sense to have Miranda magically fall back in love with Steve during Season 5 and early Season 6. I also LOVED her with Robert. Cynthia Nixon and Blair Underwood had fantastic chemistry, and I loved how Robert organically seemed to get Miranda to open up more—without any pushiness or guilt tripping like Steve did. It was so sweet seeing him doctor her through the Chicken Pox; or him not batting an eyelash at her being a single mom; or him getting into watching Jules and Mimi with her. Hell, Robert even got workaholic Miranda to take a *gasp* PERSONAL DAY! I thought there was such potential for them to be the endgame couple for Miranda...I hated that they shoehorned in a Steve reunion 9 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Melancholy said: I agree mostly with @Ms Blue Jay and her reasons for why Carrie wanted the help specifically from Charlotte. I think Carrie was very jealous of Charlotte and how Charlotte left her marriage a wealthy woman while Carrie left a relationship with her own financial troubles dogging her. I think jealousy is a subtle dynamic of the Carrie/Charlotte relationship- Charlotte is the "shiny hair, style section, Vera Wang" socialite that Carrie feels threatened by. Charlotte reaming Carrie out for cheating with married!Big right when Charlotte is about to get married furthers the Charlotte = Natasha connections. I think, generally speaking, Charlotte is who Carrie wants to be, Miranda is who Carrie wants to approve of her, and Samantha is who Carrie can relax with. I do agree with @Gothish520, though, that Carrie did know that she fucked up badly with money and Carrie also wanted the affirmation that Charlotte didn't think she was a fuck up who deserved to live in a crappy apartment and couldn't be relied on to pay a loan back. Carrie has a deep insecurity where she'll seize on how ONE person doesn't like her or doesn't think highly of her and she'll go at changing that opinion of her with relentlessness. It happens all the time- Natasha, Nina Katz, Aiden Round 2, Enid, even Carrie Fisher lol (I think that's one of the funniest scenes of the show. Half dressed, sexed up trespassing!Carrie is all "I'm a writer! You're a writer! I'm Carrie!...You're Carrie!" I die of laughter.) That’s the thing with insecurities though...it’s not up to anyone outside of yourself to fix that, it’s up to you individually. That whole scene at the Chinese restaurant was ridiculous, the more that I think about it. Charlotte should NEVER have been put into the situation where she either had to 1) offer Carrie the money to bail Carrie out of her own willful financial recklessness (it’s not like Carrie got laid off or got into massive debt due to medical bills from an illness or anything like that) or 2) be seen as “the bad guy/asshole who didn’t re-affirm Carrie’s likability because she didn’t offer to pony up $30k” And it’s even more ridiculous because the scene starts out with Carrie in possession of a check for the money to buy her apartment from Big! A no-strings-attached loan that Big gave her simply because he was in a position to help her when she needed it. But of course, Carrie has to rip up the check and pretend that Big gave it to her win some smarmy ulterior motives (because if she recognized to her friends that he gave her the money altruistically, that would ruin the mythology of Big being some “callous, emotionally unavailable cad who toyed with innocent Carrie’s emotions” *eye roll*) Edited January 19, 2019 by BlueMoon81 9 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 14 hours ago, Gothish520 said: I do love how we folks can see things so differently! I really enjoy talking about the show on this forum - I was decades late to the party so it's fun to hear different perspectives. I am definitely the Carrie apologist here and I think a big reason is that I can relate to her on some level - I remember when I was a screwed-up young woman making bad relationship choices. Also, I have a sister who is still doing so way past the "appropriate" age when that kind of behavior is at all understandable, lol. Folks like my sister and Carrie are good people, they just can't see past the ends of their own noses sometimes - ok, most times. But if you call them out, they usually see the error of their ways. Old habits do die hard though. Carrie wanted what she wanted, and she wanted people to be ok with that, and she wanted people to love her and think she was a good person even when she behaved otherwise. Life does not work that way, but I just can't hate her. She wasn't evil or devious or malicious - just selfish, self-absorbed, and quite unaware of that most of the time. I love reading your viewpoints, as it’s your first time watching the show. I am going to be very interested in your viewpoints on the characters once you’ve viewed the show through a few times over, and a few years have passed. SATC is one of those amazing shows where you can watch it over and over again and never get tired of it...and where your views on certain characters change with time. I watched it when it aired, and have re-watched it countless times since then. My viewpoints have done a complete 180 on many of the characters and their motivations. I love shows like this, where it allows you room to adjust your viewpoints upon re-watch 2 Link to comment
andromeda331 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 22 minutes ago, BlueMoon81 said: Glad I’m not the only one that wasn’t on the Miranda/Steve train. Steve had a good soul at his core, but I just never got it with those two. And the first break-up with those two (after Miranda had taken a chance and opened herself up for love...after being very reticent to do so initially), left a horrid aftertaste in my mouth. Steve breaking up with her for such an immature, stupid reason as Miranda making more money than him...was the height of childishness. Their second break-up I thought was very understandable in terms of the reasonings behind it. Miranda realized that her and Steve just weren’t meant to be—she felt he wasn’t mature enough to handle the responsibilities he was seeking from her (a family...hell he wasn’t even taking care of puppy Scout), and Miranda just realized that her romantic happiness lied elsewhere. That’s where I think their romantic story should’ve ended. It made zero sense to have Miranda magically fall back in love with Steve during Season 5 and early Season 6. I also LOVED her with Robert. Cynthia Nixon and Blair Underwood had fantastic chemistry, and I loved how Robert organically seemed to get Miranda to open up more—without any pushiness or guilt tripping like Steve did. It was so sweet seeing him doctor her through the Chicken Pox; or him not batting an eyelash at her being a single mom; or him getting into watching Jules and Mimi with her. Hell, Robert even got workaholic Miranda to take a *gasp* PERSONAL DAY! I thought there was such potential for them to be the endgame couple for Miranda...I hated that they shoehorned in a Steve reunion Oh, I loved all those scenes with Robert. He was so great. Helping her though the chicken pox was so sweet. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Miranda ended up with him. Maybe Steve ended up with the woman he was dating at the time. Maybe not but it could have been interesting to see two exs working towards a good co-parent relationship while ending up with other people. Its a pet peeve of mine on TV and movies where two people have a one night stand resulting in a child and end up together or divorced or separated couple ends up getting back together even more so when its clear they have nothing in common or have moved on with their lives but "suddenly" back in love with the ex. 6 Link to comment
Melancholy January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, BlueMoon81 said: That’s the thing with insecurities though...it’s not up to anyone outside of yourself to fix that, it’s up to you individually. That whole scene at the Chinese restaurant was ridiculous, the more that I think about it. Charlotte should NEVER have been put into the situation where she either had to 1) offer Carrie the money to bail Carrie out of her own willful financial recklessness (it’s not like Carrie got laid off or got into massive debt due to medical bills from an illness or anything like that) or 2) be seen as “the bad guy/asshole who didn’t re-affirm Carrie’s likability because she didn’t offer to pony up $30k Oh, I know. I was saying that Carrie *was* insecure and wanted the affirmation that *all* of her friends thought she was a good candidate for a loan and she didn't need to depend on Big, not that she deserved her friends to put their money on the line to increase Carrie's confidence. Also, I'm not convinced that Charlotte genuinely developed confidence in Carrie's ability to pay back the loan. IMO, Charlotte felt defensive and made to feel like she was being mean because she wasn't ponying up the money so Charlotte was bullied into giving Carrie her ring. 4 hours ago, BlueMoon81 said: I also LOVED her with Robert. Cynthia Nixon and Blair Underwood had fantastic chemistry, and I loved how Robert organically seemed to get Miranda to open up more—without any pushiness or guilt tripping like Steve did. It was so sweet seeing him doctor her through the Chicken Pox; or him not batting an eyelash at her being a single mom; or him getting into watching Jules and Mimi with her. Hell, Robert even got workaholic Miranda to take a *gasp* PERSONAL DAY! I thought there was such potential for them to be the endgame couple for Miranda...I hated that they shoehorned in a Steve reunion I really agree with all of this. Absolutely, Cynthia Nixon had much better chemistry with Blair Underwood than David Eigenberg. Robert was such a great boyfriend while he was with Miranda. He suddenly acted like a jerk when Miranda broke up with him- but that felt completely out of step with Robert in every previous ep because Robert was basically *perfect*. IMO, if Robert was endgame the writers would have had to write reasonable, non-deal-breaker flaws into Robert. Harry and Smith were truly outstanding princes among men but they had flaws and obstacles to Samantha's/Charlotte's vision of who they'd end up with while Boyfriend!Robert was literally perfect and everything that Miranda had indicated she wanted. I stand by that Miranda preferred Steve because Steve felt more comfortable and familiar because they've known each other for so long and they have a child together. I think Miranda could have been happier in the last season and the movies if she did the work to get to know Robert as well as she knew Steve. 11 hours ago, blondiec0332 said: I think Charlotte is the character that grew the most. I found her very prissy in the earlier seasons who saw her life ending up a certain way and then discovered happiness and fulfillment with someone unexpected. She definitely ended up with the healthiest relationship. I generally loved Charlotte more as the series progressed and she grew- although I might prefer S1-2 Charlotte to Married to Trey!Charlotte because I thought the gallery/art stories were so interesting and funny. But Charlotte is best with Harry. I also like Samantha more and more in the later seasons. Her string of one-night stands was funny in the early seasons but it so interesting to see her fall in deeper relationships with Richard and then, try an unbelievably, inappropriate but ultimately adorable and sweet relationship with Smith. (The movies stripped all of that growth and complexity from Sam.) I thought Miranda had her pluses and minuses through the series- but I think she was way too harsh to enjoy in S1. However from S2 through S6, Miranda was always on a see-saw between overly harsh and overly doormatty and I always liked her but felt frustrated by her. Now, Carrie is an easy case- I disliked her more and more with every passing season (and movie). I actually have the positive, series-desired view of her in S1- an overgrown teenager who can't budget or settle down but has such a huge heart and personality and such a inner commitment to figuring how to live life excellently that we should all have confidence in her and love her adorable self. However, that dimmed and curdled with every passing season of her learning nothing but making more hurtful and bone-headed choices. Edited January 19, 2019 by Melancholy 5 Link to comment
Dr.OO7 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 4 hours ago, andromeda331 said: Its a pet peeve of mine on TV and movies where two people have a one night stand resulting in a child and end up together or divorced or separated couple ends up getting back together even more so when its clear they have nothing in common or have moved on with their lives but "suddenly" back in love with the ex. The "Strangled By The Red String" trope. Yet another one that I loathe. I actually wrote about that on S&C's TV tropes page regarding Steve and Miranda. I particularly hated it when they did it on "Without A Trace", when a character ended up with her one-night-stand baby daddy--who's name she couldn't even remember--rather than either of the two men she'd been involved with during the show's duration, one of whom she'd been in love with for YEARS. 3 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 I love Robert, but the breakup with Miranda gave us THAT scene on the stairs which I still think is one of the best/funniest things I've ever seen on TV. It was hilarious. Come on!!!! And what's wrong with him being hurt by someone who he WAS IN LOVE WITH dumping him for somebody else? I only hated Miranda relaying the exact words to Steve after; that was so classless. Blair Underwood is just so awesome. He was also a love interest on another favourite TV show of mine, "The New Adventures of Old Christine." Just love him. I loved him on "In Treatment" as well. He's multifaceted. 3 Link to comment
Gothish520 January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said: I love Robert, but the breakup with Miranda gave us THAT scene on the stairs which I still think is one of the best/funniest things I've ever seen on TV. It was hilarious. Come on!!!! And what's wrong with him being hurt by someone who he WAS IN LOVE WITH dumping him for somebody else? I only hated Miranda relaying the exact words to Steve after; that was so classless. Blair Underwood is just so awesome. He was also a love interest on another favourite TV show of mine, "The New Adventures of Old Christine." Just love him. I loved him on "In Treatment" as well. He's multifaceted. I've always liked Blair Underwood, but as @Melancholy said, his character here was "perfect"...TOO perfect, IMHO. I was also viewing the show from a different perspective than those who saw it first-run, or who viewed it without reading much about it, because I knew that Steve and Miranda ended up together. Therefore there really was no point in me getting invested in Robert. I was pleasantly surprised by how Steve and Miranda did finally get together though. I'm glad that the writers showed that Miranda really wanted to be with him, and that it wasn't just that she ended up with Steve by default, because that would have sucked, lol. I also love the scene in the first movie when they both show up on the bridge. So sweet! Edited January 19, 2019 by Gothish520 4 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 18 hours ago, andromeda331 said: Oh, I loved all those scenes with Robert. He was so great. Helping her though the chicken pox was so sweet. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Miranda ended up with him. Maybe Steve ended up with the woman he was dating at the time. Maybe not but it could have been interesting to see two exs working towards a good co-parent relationship while ending up with other people. Its a pet peeve of mine on TV and movies where two people have a one night stand resulting in a child and end up together or divorced or separated couple ends up getting back together even more so when its clear they have nothing in common or have moved on with their lives but "suddenly" back in love with the ex. I thought that would’ve been such a powerful narrative—that you could have a loving relationship with someone, have a child with them, but just not end up with them romantically...for wholly understandable reasons (that don’t involve cheating or abuse or anything horridike that). And maintain a loving, kind and caring platonic relationship with that individual, while you co-parent. We don’t see enough examples of that in pop culture—the narrative is that you either have to end up together forever, or mortal enemies. The writers really had a chance to buck that trend with the Miranda/Steve story, and they dropped the ball IMO. Plus I thought Miranda and Steve were much better with other people than they were together. I still don’t get what’s so terrific about them as a couple 5 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) Reading @Melancholy‘s post about how her viewpoints have changed on the characters over the years....makes me think about my own. Miranda I was meh on when I first started watching the show, but I’ve come to adore her. I still think they had her up Carrie’s arse a bit too much, but I love the moments where she calls out Carrie on her crap (whether about meeting Big at the Boat Cafe for lunch, or randomly moving to Paris with Alexsander, etc). I used to think that she was abrasive, now I see that her judgment in those instances came from a place of not wanting to see her friend get hurt (Carrie had to make her own choices of course, but Miranda wasn’t wrong for making her feelings known). Plus, in every instance, Miranda apologized by the end of the episode for coming off as trying to tell Carrie what to do (even though her stance on the matter remained) Carrie NEVER rung true to me as a heroine. Didn’t in 2000, and even less so today. Funny, when I watched the show originally, Carrie/Sam was my favorite pairing of the Foursome....now it’s definitely Miranda/Sam. Miranda/Sam have such honest convos without a hint of judgment. Not only is Carrie not a heroine for me (in any of the seasons, although she is a tad more tolerable for me in S1), I now see how horrid a friend she is as well (How Miranda didn’t either give Carrie a right cross to the jaw or just walk away from Carrie for several months after Carrie made that bitchy remark about Miranda needing therapy because she was “always in her head”, is beyond me. And that’s not even approaching the betrayal of Miranda that Carrie did in S4 regarding Miranda terminating her pregnancy). There was zero growth of the character not only romantically, but also in her role as friend Early seasons Charlotte I used to think was kind of rootable, even though she was obviously raised in an extremely sheltered and upper crust environment. As I’ve gotten older, some of the stuff early seasons Charlotte did...just make me cringe (the “Class System” comments she made in S2 while they were all getting pedicures, the comment about Chivon’s “big black c***) when Sam announced she was dating him in “If Ands, or Butts, the horrid convo she and Carrie and Miranda had while walking down the street after Samantha told them she was with Maria, etc). I was so glad they had her character evolve past the superficial in the later seasons Edited January 20, 2019 by BlueMoon81 4 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, BlueMoon81 said: Reading @Melancholy‘s post about how her viewpoints have changed on the characters over the years....makes me think about my own. Miranda I was meh on when I first started watching the show, but I’ve come to adore her. I still think they had her up Carrie’s arse a bit too much, but I love the moments where she calls out Carrie on her crap (whether about meeting Big at the Boat Cafe for lunch, or randomly moving to Paris with Alexsander, etc). I used to think that she was abrasive, now I see that her judgment in those instances came from a place of not wanting to see her friend get hurt (Carrie had to make her own choices of course, but Miranda wasn’t wrong for making her feelings known). Plus, in every instance, Miranda apologized by the end of the episode for coming off as trying to tell Carrie what to do (even though her stance on the matter remained) Ha!!!! I'm the biggest cheerleader of hating Carrie when it comes to the big Charlotte versus Carrie Ring fight, but when it comes to the Paris decision versus Miranda I'm actually firmly on Carrie's side! I think Carrie should have done whatever she wanted no matter how stupid Miranda thought it was, and I thought Carrie made some really good points about how Miranda was allowed to move on/move away but Carrie wasn't. Sure, the show painted the Paris decision as stupid after the fact, to sell the Big as Endgame narrative, but I firmly think that was Carrie's decision to make and Miranda was way too judgemental. But I go back to hating Carrie again in the Sex and the City movie where Steve cheats and Carrie (and everyone else) paints STEVE as the victim and as MIRANDA as the person who "MUST" forgive him and take him back. I don't always root against Carrie ;) Edited January 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 2 Link to comment
andromeda331 January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said: But I go back to hating Carrie again in the Sex and the City movie where Steve cheats and Carrie (and everyone else) paints STEVE as the victim and as MIRANDA as the person who "MUST" forgive him and take him back. I don't always root against Carrie ;) I hated that part too. Carrie got spoon fed because she was so hurt at what Big while Miranda got why won't you take him back who actually got cheated on? I know I know anything that happens to Carrie has to be so much worse then anything that happens to anyone else. Even if something worse did happen to someone else. We didn't get the three friends constantly telling Carrie why doesn't she take Big back? But its okay to do so to Miranda. I hate that they had Steve cheat on Miranda. Its such a crappy thing to do and a cop out. Its big enough to cause a split but then never really worked out or talked about except for why Miranda doesn't go back to Steve already and in therapy Steve whining that Miranda doesn't forgive him for that and the therapist rightly pointing out she may never do that. You broke the trust by having sex with another woman Steve. That doesn't always get earned back and whining doesn't help. They didn't need to throw the cheating thing at all it was out of character for Steve and it would have made more sense for him to instead tell Miranda he was leaving given the whole arc was basically Miranda was too busy and putting work before her family. Which make sense for Miranda although why is she the only one at fault for the breakup of their marriage? Can't they both be and both have to work on their marriage? 6 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) I remember when I first saw the SATC movie the treat the treatment of Sainted Steve, the man who can do no wrong even when he COMMITS ADULTERY, and the treatment of Devil Woman Miranda who is just so Evil and Unfair, made me so so so so so so mad. I hate how all 3 women take Steve's side (well I remember Carrie doing it very clearly, I forget the exact dialogue of Sam and Charlotte) um, talk about unsupportive friends. Again, I'm of the same opinion when Carrie moved to Paris - Miranda should get to do whatever she wants about her marriage without the judgement of her friends. Again, I felt like the writers were so out of touch and I definitely couldn't see their point of view. It's been 10 years now so I'm so over it, but I still think I'm right, but I just got rid of that anger so I could watch one of my favourite movies in peace. But that whole arc was bullshit. I don't think the moment is "sweet" when Miranda and Steve meet on the bridge. I think Steve is a loser and I KNOW he's a cheater, so? I think there's a moment where the friends are bullying Miranda to take back Steve and Miranda says "Would you tell Carrie to take back Big?" and Charlotte says "NO. I WOULD KILL BIG FOR WHAT HE DID TO CARRIE." Why on EARTH would having doubts about MARRIAGE be worse than CHEATING ON YOUR WIFE? These women have such messed up perspectives and treat Carrie like her ass smells of roses. That wedding scene was really weird too. Big was late to the wedding - we've all experienced participants late to their own wedding. He was still going to show up. He was all set to move forward but Carrie stopped him in the street and hit him with the flowers. LOL. I don't know, when I watch it now I think it was just a bad misunderstanding and bad timing. All for the drama of the film. Edited January 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 4 Link to comment
andromeda331 January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: I remember when I first saw the SATC movie the treat the treatment of Sainted Steve, the man who can do no wrong even when he COMMITS ADULTERY, and the treatment of Devil Woman Miranda who is just so Evil and Unfair, made me so so so so so so mad. I hate how all 3 women take Steve's side (well I remember Carrie doing it very clearly, I forget the exact dialogue of Sam and Charlotte) um, talk about unsupportive friends. Again, I'm of the same opinion when Carrie moved to Paris - Miranda should get to do whatever she wants about her marriage without the judgement of her friends. Again, I felt like the writers were so out of touch and I definitely couldn't see their point of view. It's been 10 years now so I'm so over it, but I still think I'm right, but I just got rid of that anger so I could watch one of my favourite movies in peace. But that whole arc was bullshit. I don't think the moment is "sweet" when Miranda and Steve meet on the bridge. I think Steve is a loser and I KNOW he's a cheater, so? I think there's a moment where the friends are bullying Miranda to take back Steve and Miranda says "Would you tell Carrie to take back Big?" and Charlotte says "NO. I WOULD KILL BIG FOR WHAT HE DID TO CARRIE." Why on EARTH would having doubts about MARRIAGE be worse than CHEATING ON YOUR WIFE? These women have such messed up perspectives and treat Carrie like her ass smells of roses. I would have loved that bridge scene if Steve hadn't cheated on Miranda. It would have been a great they found a way back to each other or through their problems. But he cheated on her. Which I still think is out of character for Steve. He loved Miranda, he had no problems breaking up with his girlfriend to be with Miranda. But yes, everyone of her friends acted as if Steve was a Saint and Miranda was the one who messed up. Ah, no Steve cheated on Miranda. I don't see Charlotte working on telling him she cursed the day he was born like she was for Big. Because what Big did was so much bigger then cheating on a spouse. Remember when Charlotte asked Carrie how she'd feel if she was cheated on when she found out about Carrie's affair with Big? Where was that in the movie? Charlotte supporting Miranda. No, we got Charlotte saying she liked Steve, they all liked Steve. Really? That's what you say to your best friend who's husband who cheated on her? Most would be I liked Steve up until the affair and now I hate his guts. You know what? I bet Miranda thought the same thing up until the great Saint Steve told her he cheated on her. Where was the support for Miranda? She is clearly angry and hurt throughout the movie but gets dumped on by her friends. When Miranda tells the story about what they did on Saturday that might have been a good moment to talk to Miranda. But not as president of the Steve fan club but talked to her. What she's feeling and thinking. Quote That wedding scene was really weird too. Big was late to the wedding - we've all experienced participants late to their own wedding. He was still going to show up. He was all set to move forward but Carrie stopped him in the street and hit him with the flowers. LOL. I don't know, when I watch it now I think it was just a bad misunderstanding and bad timing. All for the drama of the film. I love that you pointed that out. Yes, Big was thinking of bailing on the wedding and yes he told his driver to leave. BUT then he realized he was making a mistake and told him to go back. He did come back and he did try to talk to Carrie who was already flipping out and hit him with flowers. Why? I get she thought until that moment that he left her at the alter. But he came back. He tried to explain but she refused to listen to him. Why would you not go talk? Or talk right there. Wouldn't the fact he came back mean something? They still could have gotten married then but Carrie stormed off and refused to hear him out the rest of the movie. But hey let's keep telling Miranda she should hear Steve out right? He try to call her but Lily took her phone. Although why he didn't try the other three cellphones (unless he did and I forgot) I don't know. 5 Link to comment
ZuluQueenOfDwarves January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 30 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: That wedding scene was really weird too. Big was late to the wedding - we've all experienced participants late to their own wedding. He was still going to show up. He was all set to move forward but Carrie stopped him in the street and hit him with the flowers. LOL. I don't know, when I watch it now I think it was just a bad misunderstanding and bad timing. All for the drama of the film. I agree with your whole post (Miranda being treated like a bad guy, everyone being pro-Steve, no one bothering to check on Miranda while she’s going through a separation while spoon-feeding St. Carrie), but Big wasn’t late. He arrived before Carrie, stayed in the car, and then told her he wasn’t coming when she called him. He asked the driver to turn around after they’d already left the library and Samantha had presumably announced the news to the guests. Don’t get me wrong, the street scene was ridiculous, but he well and truly jilted her, which contributed a heaping pile of public embarrassment on top of heartbreak. I blame Carrie for that absurd confrontation, but not for calling off the wedding and giving him the cold shoulder. 5 Link to comment
Melancholy January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Ha!!!! I'm the biggest cheerleader of hating Carrie when it comes to the big Charlotte versus Carrie Ring fight, but when it comes to the Paris decision versus Miranda I'm actually firmly on Carrie's side! I think Carrie should have done whatever she wanted no matter how stupid Miranda thought it was, and I thought Carrie made some really good points about how Miranda was allowed to move on/move away but Carrie wasn't. Sure, the show painted the Paris decision as stupid after the fact, to sell the Big as Endgame narrative, but I firmly think that was Carrie's decision to make and Miranda was way too judgemental. I was on Miranda's side. The girls' friendship dynamic is that they share their life problems/conundrums with each other and others give advice or state agreement or disagreement with choices. They are known for their frank and blunt conversations where they all don't hold back on getting graphic in their stories and snarky in their disagreements with the others' decisions. Of course, the decision to go to Paris was Carrie's. Miranda wasn't imprisoning Carrie back in New York. However Miranda was going to act out their usual friendship pattern- to bluntly call out a bone-headed life decision of Carrie's as she saw it. And it was bone-headed. I knew that Carrie's choice was deeply stupid before she got to Paris. Carrie had an incredibly sweet gig because she was "Carrie Bradshaw", Sex and the City columnist and she was giving that up to go to Paris to chase after a man who she didn't love and who never said that he loved her or made her any promises of commitment. She was also leaving her supposed "soulmate" friends to go live in a city which she never even visited. Carrie was demanding that her friends act completely out of character from their usual dynamic- to never ask questions and never disagree with her choices but just enforce being happy for her as she's been happy for them. Even though Carrie stated very snarky objections to Samantha getting back with cheating!Richard or Charlotte quitting her job or Miranda dumping Steve on Round 2. I support Miranda here because I think she was right. I don't disagree with the girls telling Miranda that she should forgive and get back with Steve in the movie because they were getting involved in her life. They should and do get involved in each other's lives. I disagreed because I thought it was *wrong advice* as opposed to Miranda's ultimately correct advice that Carrie shouldn't chase Alex to Paris and give up her career to do so. IMO, there was clearly something very wrong in Miranda's and Steve's marriage that she didn't want to have sex with him for six months and he reacted by cheating instead of trying to work through the problem. It was clearly a bad marriage on both sides. So, I think it was stupid and bizarrely old-fashioned that the girls were pleading Miranda to save a marriage clearly gone bad no matter what. 3 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said: I agree with your whole post (Miranda being treated like a bad guy, everyone being pro-Steve, no one bothering to check on Miranda while she’s going through a separation while spoon-feeding St. Carrie), but Big wasn’t late. He arrived before Carrie, stayed in the car, and then told her he wasn’t coming when she called him. He asked the driver to turn around after they’d already left the library and Samantha had presumably announced the news to the guests. Don’t get me wrong, the street scene was ridiculous, but he well and truly jilted her, which contributed a heaping pile of public embarrassment on top of heartbreak. I blame Carrie for that absurd confrontation, but not for calling off the wedding and giving him the cold shoulder. I understand your point, for sure. I watch it once a year so I'm sure I can revisit and see both sides of it. You're right, he did say that, she dropped the phone in shock, and rightfully freaked out. Even though Big "Came back to go through with it" (LOL) by that point Carrie was hurt enough. 29 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said: I agree with your whole post (Miranda being treated like a bad guy, everyone being pro-Steve, no one bothering to check on Miranda while she’s going through a separation while spoon-feeding St. Carrie), LITERALLY spoon-feeding St. Carrie! Carrie the Baby who can't even eat !!!! Haaaaaaa Paris decision: Carrie was 100% happy and had almost no qualms about going to Paris at the end of Season 6. Remember her screaming at Big on the street? Her mind was absolutely made up. She DIDN'T care about her job, Aleks said he'd pay for her place, she was excited to go to Paris and she was learning French. All of the concerns about Paris came from Miranda. I don't think Sam or Charlotte judged her much for it. If we pretend the whole Aleks fight and Big coming back didn't happen - up until that point Carrie was actually EXTREMELY happy with the decision to go to Paris and that's why Miranda's judgement was selfish, and all about Miranda. Carrie had her career in NYC but Carrie was making it clear in the finale that she was okay to give it up if it meant starting an adventure in Paris with Aleks. She was very clear on this. She tried to float the idea of continuing her career in Paris and the paper said no - which I find very hard to believe by the way. She'd been their employee for at least 6 years (Maybe way more? She was already established at this paper in Season 1) and the Paris angle would be incredibly interesting. Unfortunately, she wouldn't exactly be single but it's not like she would be married - she'd be having adventures with Aleks in Paris and I think the paper would have gone for it. She didn't even work in a fucking office! Carrie never said it was permanent, she said she was moving there. Miranda moved to Brooklyn and at some point Sam moves to LA. At some point I would assume Charlotte might even move to a suburb. This is normal at this age. I'm in my 30s and all my friends are moving to the suburbs. Most cannot afford or refuse to raise families in the city. With Aleks' money I'm sure Carrie could visit NYC whenever, and Miranda would be busy anyway, and they could have had more kids as well. Charlotte ended up with 3. It wasn't the end of the world, and I think Miranda went a little crazy. Many if not most relationships end so it would have been fine to let Carrie try out this adventure. I've been in the same metropolitan city for almost 20 years and I've definitely had times where I've wanted to try out a new one. Edited January 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 3 Link to comment
Melancholy January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) I think Big did jilt Carrie, but it was a "soft" jilt. He went back to do to the wedding. He seemed more like he had doubts rather than some firm finality that he didn't want to marry her. My dad got cold feet at marrying my mother- but her father firmly walked him down the aisle and my dad and mom were happily married for 30 years until my dad's passing. I think cold feet and jitters are more common than people want to admit. However, I think they're typically quietly worked through by the groom's confidante/best man. Big was bizarre in the movies. He's this blue-blooded, wealthy, corporate man-about-town big shot but...he seemed completely alone and bereft of actual friends and family. In the series, it always seemed like Big had this other social life beyond his relationship with Carrie but he was mysterious and un-gettable so we never saw it. In the movies, he just looked like a pathetic guy who only had money and Carrie. It was weird that, as the groom, he was leaning so much on Carrie to salve his wedding jitters. 34 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Carrie was 100% happy and had almost no qualms about going to Paris at the end of Season 6. Remember her screaming at Big on the street? Her mind was absolutely made up. She DIDN'T care about her job, Aleks said he'd pay for her place, she was excited to go to Paris and she was learning French. All of the concerns about Paris came from Miranda. I don't think Sam or Charlotte judged her much for it. If we pretend the whole Aleks fight and Big coming back didn't happen - up until that point Carrie was actually EXTREMELY happy with the decision to go to Paris and that's why Miranda's judgement was selfish, and all about Miranda. Carrie had her career in NYC but Carrie was making it clear in the finale that she was okay to give it up if it meant starting an adventure in Paris with Aleks. She was very clear on this. She tried to float the idea of continuing her career in Paris and the paper said no - which I find very hard to believe by the way. She'd been their employee for at least 6 years (Maybe way more? She was already established at this paper in Season 1) and the Paris angle would be incredibly interesting. Unfortunately, she wouldn't exactly be single but it's not like she would be married - she'd be having adventures with Aleks in Paris and I think the paper would have gone for it. She didn't even work in a fucking office! Carrie never said it was permanent, she said she was moving there. Miranda moved to Brooklyn and at some point Sam moves to LA. At some point I would assume Charlotte might even move to a suburb. This is normal at this age. I'm in my 30s and all my friends are moving to the suburbs. Most cannot afford or refuse to raise families in the city. With Aleks' money I'm sure Carrie could visit NYC whenever, and Miranda would be busy raising her kid anyway, and they could have had more kids as well. Charlotte ended up with 3. It wasn't the end of the world, and I think Miranda went a little crazy. Many if not most relationships end so it would have been fine to let Carrie try out this adventure. Carrie was 100% happy because she's a moron who needed to be told that her choice was stupid. Just because Carrie was happy with making a stupid choices doesn't mean that she should be insulated from hearing that her choice is dumb. Her screaming at Big is a classic example. She screams at Big that they're done forever and she hates his guts. Then when he rescues her from Paris, suddenly Big is her End Game Twu Wub. Carrie was behaving completely irrationally at the end of S6. I was like, yelling at her through my TV set so I can't even imagine the level of phoniness that it would take for Miranda to hang with Carrie while pretending that her choices to chase Alex to Paris over her job and friends were reasonable. I don't think it's fair to expect friends to just swallow their huge objections to how another friend is living their life so that they can be a yes-man to bad decisions. In that case, it's not asking for a friend. It's acting for a professional actor and bullshit artist. Charlotte and Sam also thought Carrie was making a bad choice to go to Paris but they were far more gentle and tactful. Carrie still barked at them for daring to ask her pointed questions about the logistics of the move. I understand why the paper didn't want the Paris angle. It's a New York paper and its whole point is to cover New York news. Carrie's column was relevant to those New York readers because she was constantly name-checking New York restaurants and sites and issues affecting classic NYC single girls. I forget the name of the paper but IIRC it was very localized to NYC news as opposed to a more international paper like the New York Times. This was an editorial decision and I think the editor had complete discretion here. I don't think Carrie's editor had an obligation to pivot their "sex and NYC" column to a "sex in Paris" column because Carrie wanted to chase some Russian peen. But at any rate, realistic or not, Carrie was giving up a sweet gig to chase a man when they weren't even in love. Miranda moved to Brooklyn to live with a man she loved and was married to so they could raise their child and she kept her job as an attorney. Samantha moved to LA for a man she loved and she retained her publicist career in LA. The mere act of moving wasn't bothering Miranda. It seems like she was quite cool with Samantha moving to LA because Samantha still retained her career and ability to support herself and Smith and Samantha had a deep, love-filled relationship that already withstood trials. Miranda objected to Carrie giving up her job, her ability to support herself for Alex, and a key part of her identity as the Sex and the City columnist when Alex seemed like an asshole and he and Carrie weren't in love/in a deeply committed relationship. I would loudly object to as a friend. It's incredibly self-destructive and irresponsible to throw away your amazing career to go chase a man across an ocean who isn't committed to you and when you're both not in love with each other. Carrie set up a situation where Alex could dump her in two weeks and she'd be left with absolutely nothing. I can't imagine that she has savings and her friend group is fresh out of spare engagement rings post-divorce. I wasn't surprised that the Paris move was a disaster. I was just surprised that Carrie got her column back and Big chased her to Paris to give her an romantic end-game after she yelled at him to stay out of her life. Edited January 20, 2019 by Melancholy 6 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Big was bizarre in the movies. He's this blue-blooded, wealthy, corporate man-about-town big shot but...he seemed completely alone and bereft of actual friends and family. In the series, it always seemed like Big had this other social life beyond his relationship with Carrie but he was mysterious and un-gettable so we never saw it. In the movies, he just looked like a pathetic guy who only had money and Carrie. It was weird that, as the groom, he was leaning so much on Carrie to salve his wedding jitters. I agree. He seemed to have a lot of friends at the engagement party, but we don't hear of them after that. Carrie taunted Big throughout the series for not having friends, but he always was very happy in his personal/social life whether it be in NYC or Napa. Paris, yeah sorry I just really disagree. I think her paper was called The New York Star so I take your point about her column being NYC focused. But I never saw the Paris thing as necessarily 100% permanent so I didn't see the big deal to Carrie's friends or her paper why either had to be so all or nothing about it. Charlotte stopped working for galleries in Season 3. I think it's ridiculous to judge your friends for not wanting to work. Miranda is obsessed with her career; that's fine for her, but not everyone is like that. If I could stop working tomorrow I 100% would but there's also people like my mother who doesn't have to work but insists on doing so anyway. I think either choice is fine and people should stay out of other people's life choices. Miranda made the Paris move all about her and instead of saying "Carrie, I'm sad you're leaving and I'm really going to miss you" she made it about a bunch of other shit that Carrie wasn't even concerned with, and I think Steve even pointed this out to her. Even if it's a mistake, Carrie was 38 and it was really hers to make. Aleks wasn't an asshole to Carrie, Miranda just didn't like him. He wasn't abusive or anything pre-Paris, he was incredibly romantic towards Carrie and offered a lot to her. If Carrie waited around for a life partner that Miranda approved of, she'd be waiting her whole life. There's no way Miranda truly approved of Big, she simply said "Go get our Girl" because she selfishly wanted Carrie to return and was (I'M TRULY JOKING HERE) in love with Carrie. The funny thing is, I remember Miranda really liking Berger after the whole "He's just not into you" speech. So the one guy Miranda liked for Carrie was Berger. Who was a disaster for Carrie anyway. LOL. Edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Aidan, which is normal for me. Edited January 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 2 Link to comment
Melancholy January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Paris, yeah sorry I just really disagree. I think her paper was called The New York Star so I take your point about her column being NYC focused. But I never saw the Paris thing as necessarily 100% permanent so I didn't see the big deal to Carrie's friends or her paper why either had to be so all or nothing about it. Charlotte stopped working for galleries in Season 3. I think it's ridiculous to judge your friends for not wanting to work. Miranda is obsessed with her career; that's fine for her, but not everyone is like that. If I could stop working tomorrow I 100% would but there's also people like my mother who doesn't have to work but insists on doing so anyway. I think either choice is fine and people should stay out of other people's life choices. Miranda made the Paris move all about her and instead of saying "Carrie, I'm sad you're leaving and I'm really going to miss you" she made it about a bunch of other shit that Carrie wasn't even concerned with, and I think Steve even pointed this out to her. Even if it's a mistake, Carrie was 38 and it was really hers to make. Aleks wasn't an asshole to Carrie, Miranda just didn't like him. He wasn't abusive or anything pre-Paris, he was incredibly romantic towards Carrie and offered a lot to her. Alex represented the Paris move as permanent. "I'm done with New York. It's time for Paris." Alex was returning back to a city where he spent more time and where his daughter lives. The move was "could be permanent, could be temporary- all depending on the longevity of Carrie/Alex." So, it seems pretty "all or nothing" to me. Carrie was going to Paris to live for as long as Alex would have her. On a practical level, Carrie has to work. Unlike Charlotte, Carrie wasn't married to a man who'd support her. Carrie leaving her column without a job lined up was just more huge example of her irresponsibility with money. This was no more responsible than Carrie blowing $40,000 on shoes. She was giving up her own line of cash on the hopes that Alex would support her when Alex wasn't legally or vocally emotionally bound to do so. Moreover, Carrie had frequently gushed about her identity as a *writer* and a classic "New York columnist.* Carrie represented that her career as a writer was fundamental to who she was far more than Charlotte did. Miranda was absolutely reacting to that. IMO, Miranda would be cooler with this choice if Carrie had plans to write in Paris and shop that around to other publications. However, Carrie was planning to do NOTHING but please Alex and tour Paris. I think Alex seemed like an asshole at the dinner party or how he brusquely dismissed Carrie's friends or how he demanded that Carrie follow him to Paris before they even took a trip together. These were just red flags- I'll agree that Alex wasn't abusive. But as a friend, I'd consider these red flags to point out to my friend dating such a man. Miranda liked Berger and Aiden. Miranda was a huge Aiden fan. She went out shopping for wedding rings with Aiden. She didn't like Big and Alex. So, Miranda was 50/50 for Carrie's long-term guys. I'll agree that Miranda was selfish in rooting for Big to get Carrie when Miranda thought he was wrong for Carrie. However, I think Miranda was acting along with the logic of the show. By Big humbly and effortfully trying to win Carrie back by going to her friends or schlepping all the way to Paris, Big indicated that he was finally ready to settle down with her and turned over a new leaf. 2 Link to comment
izabella January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 Didn't Big ask Carrie to move to Napa with him? Or am I confusing Big with Doug and Carol on ER? Link to comment
Melancholy January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 55 minutes ago, izabella said: Didn't Big ask Carrie to move to Napa with him? Or am I confusing Big with Doug and Carol on ER? No, Big never asked Carrie to come live with him in Napa. He left her plane tickets to come visit but that's it. 2 Link to comment
Gothish520 January 20, 2019 Share January 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said: I agree. He seemed to have a lot of friends at the engagement party, but we don't hear of them after that. Carrie taunted Big throughout the series for not having friends, but he always was very happy in his personal/social life whether it be in NYC or Napa. Paris, yeah sorry I just really disagree. I think her paper was called The New York Star so I take your point about her column being NYC focused. But I never saw the Paris thing as necessarily 100% permanent so I didn't see the big deal to Carrie's friends or her paper why either had to be so all or nothing about it. Charlotte stopped working for galleries in Season 3. I think it's ridiculous to judge your friends for not wanting to work. Miranda is obsessed with her career; that's fine for her, but not everyone is like that. If I could stop working tomorrow I 100% would but there's also people like my mother who doesn't have to work but insists on doing so anyway. I think either choice is fine and people should stay out of other people's life choices. Miranda made the Paris move all about her and instead of saying "Carrie, I'm sad you're leaving and I'm really going to miss you" she made it about a bunch of other shit that Carrie wasn't even concerned with, and I think Steve even pointed this out to her. Even if it's a mistake, Carrie was 38 and it was really hers to make. Aleks wasn't an asshole to Carrie, Miranda just didn't like him. He wasn't abusive or anything pre-Paris, he was incredibly romantic towards Carrie and offered a lot to her. If Carrie waited around for a life partner that Miranda approved of, she'd be waiting her whole life. There's no way Miranda truly approved of Big, she simply said "Go get our Girl" because she selfishly wanted Carrie to return and was (I'M TRULY JOKING HERE) in love with Carrie. The funny thing is, I remember Miranda really liking Berger after the whole "He's just not into you" speech. So the one guy Miranda liked for Carrie was Berger. Who was a disaster for Carrie anyway. LOL. Edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Aidan, which is normal for me. Ahahaha, I love this whole post! I totally agree with your take on Carrie moving to Paris and Charlotte quitting her job. I also would stop working in a heartbeat, like literally right this second, if I could and if anyone had a problem with that they could take their jealous asses home. Miranda was coming from a selfish perspective both when she objected to Carrie going to Paris and when she told Big to go after Carrie. I'm not saying I blame her for that, but I won't pretend that Miranda was thinking of Carrie and what's best for her. She did not want to lose her friend, and that's ok, but call it what it is. 3 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 24, 2019 Share January 24, 2019 (edited) On 1/20/2019 at 10:54 AM, Melancholy said: I was on Miranda's side. The girls' friendship dynamic is that they share their life problems/conundrums with each other and others give advice or state agreement or disagreement with choices. They are known for their frank and blunt conversations where they all don't hold back on getting graphic in their stories and snarky in their disagreements with the others' decisions. Of course, the decision to go to Paris was Carrie's. Miranda wasn't imprisoning Carrie back in New York. However Miranda was going to act out their usual friendship pattern- to bluntly call out a bone-headed life decision of Carrie's as she saw it. And it was bone-headed. I knew that Carrie's choice was deeply stupid before she got to Paris. Carrie had an incredibly sweet gig because she was "Carrie Bradshaw", Sex and the City columnist and she was giving that up to go to Paris to chase after a man who she didn't love and who never said that he loved her or made her any promises of commitment. She was also leaving her supposed "soulmate" friends to go live in a city which she never even visited. Carrie was demanding that her friends act completely out of character from their usual dynamic- to never ask questions and never disagree with her choices but just enforce being happy for her as she's been happy for them. Even though Carrie stated very snarky objections to Samantha getting back with cheating!Richard or Charlotte quitting her job or Miranda dumping Steve on Round 2. I support Miranda here because I think she was right. I don't disagree with the girls telling Miranda that she should forgive and get back with Steve in the movie because they were getting involved in her life. They should and do get involved in each other's lives. I disagreed because I thought it was *wrong advice* as opposed to Miranda's ultimately correct advice that Carrie shouldn't chase Alex to Paris and give up her career to do so. IMO, there was clearly something very wrong in Miranda's and Steve's marriage that she didn't want to have sex with him for six months and he reacted by cheating instead of trying to work through the problem. It was clearly a bad marriage on both sides. So, I think it was stupid and bizarrely old-fashioned that the girls were pleading Miranda to save a marriage clearly gone bad no matter what. Defintely agree. I’ve always been in Miranda’s side in her and Carrie’s huge fight at the end of “Splat!” and always will. Carrie’s hypocrisy and narcissism were on FULL DISPLAY in that episode. She gave her VERY snarky opinions on many of the group’s individual romantic choices; yet she wanted them to blindly play the role of “yes women” and not object or even question her random decision to move halfway around the world with Petrovsky on a whim. Miranda definitely wasn’t holding Carrie hostage in New York—she was asking honest and relatable questions that Carrie should’ve weighed herself before deciding to move to Paris. Carrie, predictably went into adolescent bitchy mode and had to throw a snarky insult at Miranda. Carrie had her own decision to make, of course...but Miranda was NOT wrong for bringing up logical and sensible questions about the move as for Miranda and Steve’s storyline in the first movie—I’ve always felt like that was shoehorned in for drama’s sake. I was never a fan of Miranda/Steve as endgame...but Steve cheating on Miranda was completely out of character. Steve would NEVER betray Miranda like that, even if he felt betrayed and cast aside by her. That was completely out of character and another way the writing for the films played to selacious drama as opposed to intelligent character writing. Miranda’s dogged dedication to her career at the expense of her relationship would’ve been a wonderful angle to explore all on its own—it didn’t need the hamfisted-for-drama “Steve cheated” angle inserted in Edited January 29, 2019 by BlueMoon81 4 Link to comment
blondiec0332 January 25, 2019 Share January 25, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 4:10 AM, BlueMoon81 said: as for Miranda and Steve’s storyline in the first movie—I’ve always felt like that was shoehorned in for drama’s sake. I was never a fan of Miranda/Steve as endgame...but Steve cheating on Miranda was completely out of character. Steve would NEVER betray Miranda like that, even if he felt betrayed and cast aside by her. That was completely out of character and another way the writing for the films played to selacious drama as opposed to intelligent character writing. Miranda’s dogged dedication to her career at the expense of her relationship would’ve been a wonderful angle to explore all on its own—it didn’t need the hamfisted-for-drama “Steve chested” angle inserted in It's lazy writing. Too often when trying to write a story for a happy couple infidelity is the plot they use. As Bluemoon81 mentioned they could have had Miranda work too much and Steve feels neglected. Steve could have wanted another child and Miranda was unwilling. Miranda could have gotten a job opportunity in another city and Steve didn't want to leave his mother. But then of course we wouldn't have had Miranda vent to Big about how shitty marriage is. 4 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 27, 2019 Share January 27, 2019 (edited) On 1/24/2019 at 4:10 AM, BlueMoon81 said: Defintely agree. I’ve always been in Miranda’s side in her and Carrie’s huge fight at the end of “Splat!” and always will. Carrie’s hypocrisy and narcissism were on FULL DISPLAY in that episode. She gave her VERY snarky opinions on many of the group’s individual romantic choices; yet she wanted them to blindly play the role of “yes women” and not object or even question her random decision to move halfway around the world with Petrovsky on a whim. Miranda definitely wasn’t holding Carrie hostage in New York—she was asking honest and relatable questions that Carrie should’ve weighed herself before deciding to move to Paris. Carrie, predictably went into adolescent bitchy mode and had to throw a snarky insult at Miranda. Carrie had her own decision to make, of course...but Miranda was NOT wrong for bringing up logical and sensible questions about the move Yeah, Carrie gave snarky opinions at brunch or whatever. But Carrie was cool with her friends doing whatever they wanted to do and only shrugged her shoulders at situations and very very rarely judged. There were times where Carrie explicitly said she couldn't get involved in her friends' life decisions: - When Miranda asked her if she should have an abortion or not - When Miranda decided to, but said she wasn't going to tell Steve - When Samantha told her about her cancer but told her not to show overt emotion or tell anyone else about it - When Charlotte told Samantha to tone down her sex talk and Samantha was offended, Carrie just crouched down and said "Not getting invoooooooolved" - When Samantha went back to Richard - I think Charlotte spoke up (I don't remember Carrie judging her for it? Probably just made a snarky comment.) This is a major component of Carrie's personality, actually. Making snarky, sarcastic, punny comments but refusing to harshly condemn or judge. The times she did judge, I hated her for it, but it was like 5 percent of the time (The Ring incident, maybe 1 or 2 other incidents in the show). So yeah, to me snarky opinions are completely different from what Miranda was doing. Which were not mere "snarky opinions". And it wasn't just "asking questions." Saying "You can't quit your column" or "You can't leave New York" is not a snark nor a question. Not only did she make outright statements like that, but Miranda yelled at Carrie hoping to change their mind and judged her very harshly for her choices. And Miranda DID yell at Carrie, at the funeral. So I feel consistently. Carrie shouldn't have yelled at Charlotte for The Ring and Miranda shouldn't have yelled at Carrie about Paris. Personal opinion. Edited January 27, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 1 Link to comment
BlueMoon81 January 29, 2019 Share January 29, 2019 On 1/27/2019 at 1:15 AM, Ms Blue Jay said: Yeah, Carrie gave snarky opinions at brunch or whatever. But Carrie was cool with her friends doing whatever they wanted to do and only shrugged her shoulders at situations and very very rarely judged. There were times where Carrie explicitly said she couldn't get involved in her friends' life decisions: - When Miranda asked her if she should have an abortion or not - When Miranda decided to, but said she wasn't going to tell Steve - When Samantha told her about her cancer but told her not to show overt emotion or tell anyone else about it - When Charlotte told Samantha to tone down her sex talk and Samantha was offended, Carrie just crouched down and said "Not getting invoooooooolved" - When Samantha went back to Richard - I think Charlotte spoke up (I don't remember Carrie judging her for it? Probably just made a snarky comment.) This is a major component of Carrie's personality, actually. Making snarky, sarcastic, punny comments but refusing to harshly condemn or judge. The times she did judge, I hated her for it, but it was like 5 percent of the time (The Ring incident, maybe 1 or 2 other incidents in the show). So yeah, to me snarky opinions are completely different from what Miranda was doing. Which were not mere "snarky opinions". And it wasn't just "asking questions." Saying "You can't quit your column" or "You can't leave New York" is not a snark nor a question. Not only did she make outright statements like that, but Miranda yelled at Carrie hoping to change their mind and judged her very harshly for her choices. And Miranda DID yell at Carrie, at the funeral. So I feel consistently. Carrie shouldn't have yelled at Charlotte for The Ring and Miranda shouldn't have yelled at Carrie about Paris. Personal opinion. Carrie was the QUEEN of snark and also the QUEEN of pretending that she wasn’t judgemental....while simultaneously often being the most judgmental. When Samantha announced she was getting back with Richard at the beginning of Season 5, she bluntly told Sam “DNR...do not resuscitate”. Then when Sam held firm in that being her decision, Carrie responded with the “how about this for a column—Desperate Women Who Will Believe Anything.” This wasn’t a romantic situation, but her insulting remarks to Miranda about therapy always grated my nerves. She tells Miranda (after the girls suggest Carrie go to a therapist to discuss her breakup with Big because it’s too much drama for them), “I get why YOU go to therapy, because you’re always in your head...but I think therapy is bullshit.” —honestly, Miranda should’ve backslapped her right there at the table and the infamous episode where she walks in on Sam giving a blowjob to the WorldWide Express Guy was ALL about Carrie’s hypocritical, self-serving judgement of Sam. She also made the “no, she just signs a delivery slip and sends him on his way.” comment to Sam at the diner, after Sam had made it clear (through obvious social cues) that she didn’t appreciate Carrie’s snide comments (this is The same Sam who never judged Carrie for a second when Carrie was banging a very married Big all over NYC, while Carrie herself had a boyfriend) and that’s not even mentioning Carrie’s repeated comments of Sam’s facial appearance at the book release party (which Sam put together for Carrie and came there after she told Carrie she wasn’t feeling up to it). Carrie is the queen of passive/aggressive judgement on the show On 1/25/2019 at 10:45 AM, blondiec0332 said: It's lazy writing. Too often when trying to write a story for a happy couple infidelity is the plot they use. As Bluemoon81 mentioned they could have had Miranda work too much and Steve feels neglected. Steve could have wanted another child and Miranda was unwilling. Miranda could have gotten a job opportunity in another city and Steve didn't want to leave his mother. But then of course we wouldn't have had Miranda vent to Big about how shitty marriage is. Those are GREAT suggestions for how they could’ve gone with the Steve/Miranda storyline in the first film—and those suggestions would’ve felt more relatable and organic to the two characters. It also would’ve provided more nuance than the overused infidelity storyline trope. All their ups and downs, break-ups and make-ups, Steve never even hinted on stepping out on Miranda (even a random one-nighter)....so it made zero sense in the movies, and was textbook LAZY WRITING as you said. I would’ve loved to have seen a “Steve wanting another child” storyline and then that can dovetail into how another child would fit into their lives with Miranda’s organically workaholic nature. So many different ways they could’ve gone with them storyline-wise 3 Link to comment
blondiec0332 January 29, 2019 Share January 29, 2019 The writers made a lot of missteps throughout the series and movies but Steve cheating on Miranda was one of the biggest. I also think Carrie wanting to get back together with Aidan was another misstep. Carrie cheated on him for a reason. What made her think whatever issues she had in the first go around would be any different in the second go around? 3 Link to comment
lucindabelle January 29, 2019 Share January 29, 2019 I agree with everyone who admired the way Charlotte evolved, and the call outs to her experimental behavior, too. I think her biggest evolution came after Harry dumped her. Sure, she took steps deciding she could marry him and even converting... but she still thought she was deigning to do these things. When he dumped her, and then she realized nobody else would do, it changed her. That struck home. When he proposed at the synagogue mixer I burst into tears. My favorite episode was the one that contrasted the fake romantic gestures of the Russian to Carrie with the true love shown between Charlotte and Harry when both had food poisoning from the French restaurant and had diarrhea and fell asleep holding hands on the bathroom floor. True. Love. God, the movies were bad. I especially hated that Aiden is shown with a baby. Babies take nine months, writers. What kind of guy is Aiden if he moved on that fast and HAD A BABY within a year? Just seemed like sloppy storytelling. The bit where they pick on Miranda for not waxing recently. The funny thing is so many girls today retro-remember that women have always waxed. So not true. To the point where there's an episode of Carrie getting a wax and IT HURTS. I'm in my 50s and most of my life it was razors, baby. 3 Link to comment
andromeda331 January 29, 2019 Share January 29, 2019 1 hour ago, lucindabelle said: I agree with everyone who admired the way Charlotte evolved, and the call outs to her experimental behavior, too. I think her biggest evolution came after Harry dumped her. Sure, she took steps deciding she could marry him and even converting... but she still thought she was deigning to do these things. When he dumped her, and then she realized nobody else would do, it changed her. That struck home. When he proposed at the synagogue mixer I burst into tears. My favorite episode was the one that contrasted the fake romantic gestures of the Russian to Carrie with the true love shown between Charlotte and Harry when both had food poisoning from the French restaurant and had diarrhea and fell asleep holding hands on the bathroom floor. True. Love. God, the movies were bad. I especially hated that Aiden is shown with a baby. Babies take nine months, writers. What kind of guy is Aiden if he moved on that fast and HAD A BABY within a year? Just seemed like sloppy storytelling. The bit where they pick on Miranda for not waxing recently. The funny thing is so many girls today retro-remember that women have always waxed. So not true. To the point where there's an episode of Carrie getting a wax and IT HURTS. I'm in my 50s and most of my life it was razors, baby. I do hate how Harry dumped her even though I get the why (having someone change their religion for you is a really big thing and kind of a lot of pressure} But Charlotte was preparing her first sabbath and Harry was basically blowing it off and trying to watch TV during it. But the after the breakup Charlotte didn't convert back which I was with her friends and being surprised. Yes, she converted but she did so to marry Harry. But they breakup and she remains Jewish. That was really surprising. It showed she really committed to her new faith. That was big for Charlotte. I also really love that she's suddenly so popular with all the Jewish moms trying to get their sons married, that is so true. 4 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 (edited) Harry was kind of arbitrary with his faith. He said that he had to marry a Jewish woman but he admittedly wouldn't do a whole lot of other things in the Jewish faith. It's hard for me to comment on though because I'm not religious. If I was Charlotte.... basically I wouldn't do it. LOL. Then again Charlotte was in love and she NEEDED to get married, so she was forced to compromise. Edited January 30, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay 1 Link to comment
Melancholy January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Harry was kind of arbitrary with his faith. He said that he had to marry a Jewish woman but he admittedly wouldn't do a whole lot of other things in the Jewish faith. It's hard for me to comment on though because I'm not religious. If I was Charlotte.... basically I wouldn't do it. LOL. Then again Charlotte was in love and she NEEDED to get married, so she was forced to compromise. I'm Jewish- I think Harry's ultimatum was very realistic. Yes, he's not particularly observant. However, Judaism has been rendered into a race/ethnicity over time, not least of which by anti-Semites who want to destroy the Jewish people. There's an element of cultural pride/familial obligation/defiance to refuse to abandon the Jewish people and participate in the erosion of the group by marrying and raising children outside of the faith and to leave a even smaller, even more vulnerable Jewish population as your legacy by taking your children outside the group. He's also profoundly culturally Jewish- Yiddish in conversations, Jewish food, holidays. It makes sense that he'd really care about having a household that matches his identity. I'm Jewish and living with and contemplating marriage to a Catholic man. I'm not really observant either but being Jewish is quite important to me. I won't ask him to convert because his Catholicism is about as important to him as my Judaism is to me. We're not devout or even particularly observant but it's a crucial part of our identity and we celebrate the holidays and milestones of our faith. Our parents are even more religious. They support our relationship and unlike Harry's mother, they haven't demanded a promise to marry within the faith. However, I think his dad and my mom would REALLY have problems with their child converting. We've discussed that we'll just figure out compromising on having a place for both faiths in our future family- but I anticipate that it'll be complicated. Now, I don't think Charlotte cared as much about Episcopalianism as Harry and I care about Judaism or my boyfriend cares about Catholicism. In the conversion storyline, Charlotte mourns giving up Christmas but we never really see her celebrate holidays or look forward to raising her children specifically within a faith. In the series, it looks like she took to being Jewish more than she did Episcopalianism. LOL, I get why- we've got awesome food, cute Yiddish words to sprinkle in conversations, a looooong, fascinating history, very social synagogues that take marriage and having kids very seriously, and holidays that encourage liberal consumption of wine. Edited January 30, 2019 by Melancholy 4 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 I thought all Harry said was that his Mom said he had to marry a Jewish woman so he'd do it for her. 2 Link to comment
Melancholy January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said: I thought all Harry said was that his Mom said he had to marry a Jewish woman so he'd do it for her. Harry said that and he said that he lost family in the Holocaust. For me, that’s enough for Harry to exemplify what I described above. 2 Link to comment
lucindabelle January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said: Harry was kind of arbitrary with his faith. He said that he had to marry a Jewish woman but he admittedly wouldn't do a whole lot of other things in the Jewish faith. It's hard for me to comment on though because I'm not religious. If I was Charlotte.... basically I wouldn't do it. LOL. Then again Charlotte was in love and she NEEDED to get married, so she was forced to compromise. Being Jewish is belonging to a tribe not just what you believe. THis is something that most Christians don’t really understand. You can be Jewish and totally an atheist. If your mother was Jewish, and you didn’t formally renounce or convert, you’re Jewish. (And even if you did convert I’m not how meaningful it is, see Bob Dylan and of course Marrano Jews). identity comes through the mother so if Harry married a non jewish woman his children would not be considered Jewish for anybody but the reform. It’s totally understandable to any Jew why his mom would care. Jews believe that we were all there when Moses gave he Torah at Mt Sinai. This is why when Charlotte later says when an adoption falls through “honey we’re Jews we’ve been through worse than this” it’s funny but also true... (which is why it’s such a great moment). As a convert she’s one of the people who was there. (I think there’s even a matchmaking service called saw you at Sinai) just to explain that his being arbitrary with observance has no bearing on why it would matter to him and to his late mother. And because of his family. A conversion is actually meant I think in any religion not to be just to get married so I wasn’t surprised. if you’re going to do it you do it. It’s very common again in any religion that converts are much more observant than people born into the religion. And yes Harry was VERY culturally Jewish. Literally the first thing we see him do is spit out a blueberry bagel. (Blueberry and rainbow bagels are pretty non traditional!) Edited January 30, 2019 by lucindabelle 5 Link to comment
izabella January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 47 minutes ago, lucindabelle said: This is why when Charlotte later says when an adoption falls through “honey we’re Jews we’ve been through worse than this” it’s funny but also true... (which is why it’s such a great moment). As a convert she’s one of the people who was there. (I think there’s even a matchmaking service called saw you at Sinai) This is not something I really understand. I think of conversion as adopting a different or new religion, or the beliefs and way you worship. So I can't quite grasp how it also changes a person's history. Charlotte isn't Jewish through a bloodline; she only learned and accepted different beliefs about God. She can learn the religion, culture, and history, but I don't get how it makes her one of the people who was there - her ancestors weren't. 1 Link to comment
lucindabelle January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, izabella said: This is not something I really understand. I think of conversion as adopting a different or new religion, or the beliefs and way you worship. So I can't quite grasp how it also changes a person's history. Charlotte isn't Jewish through a bloodline; she only learned and accepted different beliefs about God. She can learn the religion, culture, and history, but I don't get how it makes her one of the people who was there - her ancestors weren't. Yep, it’s different for sure. Jews believe that converts have a Jewish soul and that conversion is merely the fulfillment of their identity. as I said, Judaism is not just a faith but a tribe. The way you think about converting described above is probably true for most religions, but it is not true of Judaism. Charlotte obviously had learned that, which is why she can make that comment in all seriousness. This is also why it would indeed matter to Harry that she be Jewish, regardless of how observant he was. Her conversion made her a member of the tribe, full stop. And also I think why she wouldn’t just unconvert when Harry dumped her. Even at that synagogue singles mixer a mother said “we notice you’ve been coming to synagogue alone” which suggests she was a regular on Shabbos. Bringing this back on topic I think her very sad reaction to being at the mixer and sincere plea to Harry just to date her and how lucky she’d be was a big step for Charlotte. I think she was sadder losing Harry than she ever was with Trey. 4 Link to comment
WendyCR72 January 30, 2019 Author Share January 30, 2019 While I'm not a huge fan of the movies, for those who are, WE is showing the first movie tomorrow at 7:25 p.m., 01/30/19. (Yeah, kind of an odd start time, but there it is!) 2 Link to comment
Ms Blue Jay January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 I can see that the movies have flaws and issues - especially the second one which I think is just...... objectively bad...... BUT I do love them and probably watch them at least once a year ;) Link to comment
blondiec0332 January 30, 2019 Share January 30, 2019 I do enjoy the first movie Steve cheating on Miranda not withstanding. However I only watch the second movie up until they go to Abu Dhabi. I just can't watch the rest of it. 2 Link to comment
lucindabelle January 31, 2019 Share January 31, 2019 Which movie was it where they had the ridiculous montage of Carrie dressing up in 80s or 90s clothes? Hated. That. So much. Link to comment
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