JonBenet Ramsey

[Frelling Tralk]

On 15/01/2017 at 3:22 PM, jameson245 said:

The truth is, if you study the case documents, the search warrants and returns, the depositions, interviews... if you look at the crime scene photos - - you will find the only mention of feces is something found in the basement toilet which was unflushed - - and some "skid marks" on the underwear found in JonBenet's bathroom - - she had taken off her play pants and panties together and they were found on her bathroom floor - - she had redressed to go to the Whites' and likely was proud to be able to identify the  Wednesday panties on her own, thanks to kindergarten.    Only much later, in publications now being sued for the lies, did feces appear on walls and candy.  But the documents we have discredit the rumor and misinformation out there now (that was NOT there 20 years ago, because it did not exist.

This is something I’m curious about. I’ve never heard about feces being found at the crime scene, but I have read about Burke supposedly being known to spread feces on the walls during Patty’s cancer treatment, as well as feces being found in a box of candy in Jonbenet’s room, and a grapefruit sized lump on her bed. All of that to me is a major red flag pointing to just how troubled her brother was, as well as how much he must have really hated his sister to actually smear shit in her bed and on her gifts. I’m just curious as to whether that’s all actually been verified as true, or is is more a case of rumours being repeated as facts?

Also does anyone know where I can find the interview where he acts oddly when he’s asked about pineapple?

[MsJamieDornan]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 7:58 AM, Frelling Tralk said:

- you will find the only mention of feces is something found in the basement toilet which was unflushed - - and some "skid marks" on the underwear found in JonBenet's bathroom

How did all those rumors get started ?

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 7:58 AM, Frelling Tralk said:

Only much later, in publications now being sued for the lies, did feces appear on walls and candy. 

[Pebble Puppy]

I haven't been a huge follower of this case but something has always bothered me about the mom. I saw an interview with her and JB dad. I cannot remember if it was a police interview or a media interview but the question was like this "Do you feel that the pageants had anything to do with JBs death?". The mom vehemently denied that they could have and right then I thought "how do you know that unless you killed your daughter or know who did?" So, I've always felt the mother knew something or was covering. 

[Pebble Puppy]

I haven't been a huge follower of this case but something has always bothered me about the mom. I saw an interview with her and JB dad. I cannot remember if it was a police interview or a media interview but the question was like this "Do you feel that the pageants had anything to do with JBs death?". The mom vehemently denied that they could have and right then I thought "how do you know that unless you killed your daughter or know who did?" So, I've always felt the mother knew something or was covering. 

I don't think this case will be fully investigated again until everyone that was involved before is dead. The crime scene was mishandled, the investigation was blundered and all of that would come out if it ever went to trial. It would make these people look worse than the cops at the OJ trial. It's not because they don't know, it's because they are protecting themselves.

[Pebble Puppy]

I  also wonder if Burke injured JB severely, enough that she was unconscious and maybe Patsy walked in on it and panicked. In her mind maybe she started worrying about an investigation into their home life, Burke's previous behavior, her reputation would be ruined . What if this  explains the garot? What if she or Jon finished JB off and set up the scene to protect Burke. I also think it's possible Burke had sexually abused JB and it's possible he has been molested by someone. Child molesters often repeat what is happening to them on other children or their siblings. It could explain his violent outbursts and why he reacted to JB. He wanted and needed his parents attention but she received it all.

[Pebble Puppy]

On 10/5/2016 at 8:24 PM, WicketyWack said:

I don't put much stock in Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before. As someone else pointed out, she was a secret slob and she might not have done laundry in a while. Also I believe she'd gained weight in the past year and maybe a bit more during the holidays ... she might not have had a lot of outfits that fit her properly. She mentioned in one interview coloring her own hair in the day or two leading up to JonBenet's murder. I would think that a woman of her means would never EVER allow her hair to come into contact with box color -- they make appointments in high-end salons. So her behavior was, to say the least, not predictable or consistent with someone of her wealth. 

She's a control freak. Patsy held the control , not Jon. Her son was not right and the more you are away from home, the less control you have. I suspect Patsy was worried something could happen because of Burke's violence. I suspect he may have molested JB and that's why she was having issues that the school brought up maybe even why she was wetting the bed. Maybe Patsy was very fearful for her image. Maybe she was worried about her kids if she died. I'm not making excuses. I think she felt all control slipping away.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Pebble Puppy

[Queena]

15 hours ago, Pebble Puppy said:

I haven't been a huge follower of this case but something has always bothered me about the mom. I saw an interview with her and JB dad. I cannot remember if it was a police interview or a media interview but the question was like this "Do you feel that the pageants had anything to do with JBs death?". The mom vehemently denied that they could have and right then I thought "how do you know that unless you killed your daughter or know who did?" So, I've always felt the mother knew something or was covering. 

That's a very good point. I found it suspicious that they let Burke sit in his room alone while searching and for a while after JB was found. 

[Pebble Puppy]

Another thing I thought of that may explain something is... isn't it strange that JB is named after her dad but Burke isn't? Doesn't this show maybe in his mind how his parents thought of her and why he lashed out at her? 

Edit: Dad has children from first marriage, one of them being a son named John Andrew. I guess naming another son "Jon" wouldn't work.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Pebble Puppy

[ghoulina]

I definitely think Burke had a lot of jealousy issues with his sister, but I'm not sure the name was part of it. I don't even think of the male, "John" when I see a name like Jon Benet. 

[Pebble Puppy]

48 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I definitely think Burke had a lot of jealousy issues with his sister, but I'm not sure the name was part of it. I don't even think of the male, "John" when I see a name like Jon Benet. 

I think it gives some insight into their family life though. Patsy fussed over JB so much and Burke saw that. He was still a child and needed his mom too but life was all about his sister and maybe that's why he lashed out at her.

[ghoulina]

4 hours ago, Pebble Puppy said:

I think it gives some insight into their family life though. Patsy fussed over JB so much and Burke saw that. He was still a child and needed his mom too but life was all about his sister and maybe that's why he lashed out at her.

Oh, I 100% agree with that. I am in the Burke did it camp, and I absolutely believe jealousy over his sister contributed to what happened that night. 

[ari333]

when this first happened I jumped to a conclusion that the mom snapped and did it. after following the case I am now in the burke did it camp. the parents covered it so as not to lose two kids. (imo)

[GaT]

Did anybody else watch "Hunting JonBenét's Killer: The Untold Story" on A&E? If you didn't, you're not missing much. They dangled a whole bunch of clues, then at the end it was "nope, not him". They really had no new information.

[jameson]

 I worked with the production for a short time. My very limited NDA ended last night when the show aired.

I was approached by Miguel Sancho and agreed to help. He said it was too bad they couldn't get a family interview - believed John Ramsey when he said there's be no more interviews after Dr. Phil. I contacted John, flew to Salt lake City, drove to Moab with Sancho and got them the interview. I gave the team a handful of leads. Including Jim Benish and the Schonlau brothers.

Within weeks I realized that the team was.... dishonest. They had agreed to certain things that they never intended to follow through on (and no, it had nothing to do with money or credit).

I found myself disrespected and bullied when I refused to give them certain files. Veiled threats were made - if I didn't cooperate, my relationship with John Ramsey would be damaged. I was advised to remember my place (housewife with bills v Producers with cash) I was advised to cash in selling certain files and contacts. I remembered my place, and I quit the project.

I still encouraged others to participate. I did nothing to harm their project. But I did, and do, warn people to be carful when dealing with either Miguel Sancho and/or David Tomasini. If you make an agreement with them, get it in writing, witnessed and notarized.

[jewel21]

On 4/13/2019 at 7:25 PM, GaT said:

Did anybody else watch "Hunting JonBenét's Killer: The Untold Story" on A&E? If you didn't, you're not missing much. They dangled a whole bunch of clues, then at the end it was "nope, not him". They really had no new information.

I was channel scrolling earlier today and landed on A&E and I believe this was airing. Was this the special where a woman in prison thought her ex and a cult leader might have killed JonBenet? There were also two brothers living in Hawaii who were suspects and a few other people. I kept hoping one of them would pan out but sadly none were DNA matches. They claim by eliminating the suspect pool, they're narrowing in on the killer, but after all this time I'm not sure we'll ever know who did it.

There's also the junkyard guy who committed suicide but they couldn't get a DNA sample from him... I know some people suspected the father but he seemed so normal that I just couldn't picture him as the killer. I just felt sorry for him.

This is one of those cases that I've been aware of since it happened because it's been on TV a lot and my mom was into it. My mother also loved reading The National Enquirer and JonBenet was all over the pages when it happened but I never really followed the case too closely or watched much of the specials myself so this was all new to me and fascinating. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

To carry over from the wrong place, My 600 lb Life, where this didn't belong.     I watched part of the Lou Smit (spelling?) documentary, but didn't see all of it, the one with interviews with his family, and him asking them to continue the case.     I've watched previous documentaries about this, and saw the detective actually go through that window in the basement room, and he did show that you needed something to stand on to exit.   He used the suitcase that was in that room, and the mark on the wall was the right size and shape to come from the suitcase.    The Boulder police discounted the physical proof, and I remember reading that they said the scuff mark on the wall was very small, and not significant.      

I think it was an intruder.   That was an older house, had many previous owners, workers in and out of the basement for service calls, and there were many parties the Ramseys had,, with hundreds of people wandering around the house.     Over the years, I can't imagine how many people were familiar with that house.     I don't know if the housekeeper was a live in or not,, but she wasn't there on Christmas Day, when this happened.  The children were on one end of the second floor, and the parents almost the entire third floor, and their bedroom was on the other end of the house from the children.      From testimony, they never locked the doors, never used the security system, and pretty much lived like no one would ever come in their house for burglary, or anything else. 

My guess is that Patsy came downstairs, went to get the kids up, and found JonBenet was missing.    I think her mother panicked, and it dawned on her that the local police would be just as useless as they turned out to be, and decided to write the extortion note to get the FBI involved.    I think that poor JonBenet was taken out of her bedroom, and taken down to the basement, and the kidnapper was aiming at sexually assaulting her, and in the struggle, or to keep her quiet, the head injury happened, and she died.   I think the paint brush garotte was improvised after she died, or when she was dying, and the other evidence was during the assault and kidnapping.    Then the perp realized she was dead, and he would get caught, so he climbed out of the basement window, and up out of the window grate.         I think the killer was someone who was only in town for the holidays, and maybe even came to the open house the Ramseys had right before the murder.    I bet the person who did this either went back home right after, or left town as soon as they could.    It could even have been a guest of someone who visited for the holidays, and came with a neighbor to the open house, and saw JonBenet.    

My reason I don't think Patsy had anything to do with it, because she simply wasn't capable of shutting up about anything.   She would have slipped when talking to detectives, the grand jury, and other investigators.      I think if it would have been a case of her getting angry at her daughter, and hurting her, that the scene would have been staged much better, with the daughter being found at the bottom of the stairs from the bedrooms.    

I hate the way the case was handled by the local police from the first detective on scene.   Who sends the parents to search the house?    Only the Boulder police.   I think that if they ever charge anyone, there will be so many other suspects, that they'll never get a conviction.    

[AZChristian]

I agree that the Boulder police were not the best (because of their inexperience at investigating complex murder scenes), but I still think it was an inside job.  At one point in one of the books that I've read, John said something about looking down the alley behind the house and seeing a strange vehicle.  So . . . why didn't he mention it to the police?

I think Burke did it, and Patsy covered it up to protect him.  John knows that, but he's keeping quiet to protect Patsy and Burke. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by AZChristian

[CrazyInAlabama]

I'm wondering if the Ramseys covered it up thinking that Burke was somehow involved (either knew who kidnapped her, and wasn't telling, or some other reason), and that's when they did that stupid note.    There were so many people over the years that worked on the house either as household staff, caterers, maintenance people, and friends and relatives of previous owners.    Think of all of the friends of previous owners, and their kids, that would have been in the house, and know all about it.   

I wonder about friends of the current staff when this happened, and wonder if someone thought the Ramseys would be gone (they were scheduled to leave town the next day, I think), and showed up at the house early.   It could have been a crime of opportunity, and access, instead of some planned crime.     Also, they had a lot of huge parties, with neighbors, probably some of the neighbor's friends, and a lot of outsiders who just tagged along, so there were hundreds of people in that house after the Ramseys moved in.     It amazes me that rich people like the Ramseys didn't even lock the doors most of the time, and apparently didn't use a security system either. 

 I moved to Colorado right after this happened, and I knew a lot of people who had lived there for years, and were very familiar with Boulder.   None of the ones I knew expected this case to ever be solved, unless someone ratted a co-conspirator out.    I suspect that there is only one person who knows how it happened, and we'll never know unless there's a deathbed confession.    THe local police, and the campus police only cared about keeping controversy away from the university.     There are thousands of staff, and students, and plus visitors, friends and family, so add many thousands of people who were in town, but may not even have been looked at for criminal past.    Also, right after the murders, when the pageant people, including Patsy, claimed that only family and staff were in the audience, and saying no one could be around the pageant kids, that was garbage.    I knew people who went for work travel, or conferences, and stayed in some of the big hotels that had pageants in the same building.    Anyone who wanted to pay to watch the pageant just had to buy a ticket, so anyone who says differently is trying to protect the pageants, and protect having their kids in them.     

Edited February 12, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[RedDelicious]

I am firmly in the camp that Burke did it. I think he was insanely jealous of his sister. A couple of other things on my mind:

- What many people don't know is that bedwetting in children past toilet training age can very often be caused by severe constipation. I think this is only coming to light from a pediatric medicine standpoint as of I don't know maybe the last 10 years or so. If JB was having problems with elimination and holding 1 and 2, that might explain the many visits to the pediatrician in the year prior to her death. It gets to the point where the child's bowel becomes so full and distended, it puts pressure on the bladder and they just can't do anything about it. I wouldn't be surprised if that was her issue and Patsy was embarrassed of it. I *think this can be caused by severe anxiety and if Burke was consistently torturing his sister in the way that jealous siblings do, she was probably dealing with two things (anxiety + toileting) that might in turn have caused embarrassment for Patsy.

- I think Burke was probably really angry and jealous of what ever gifts JB received for Christmas - wasn't there a bike or something - and I think she caught him downstairs and he whacked her with the flashlight to punish her for catching him and potentially tattling. I think the subsequent strangulation was him thinking he'd really make her sorry. I don't think he thought he could have actually killed her and when he realized she wasn't waking up, he did the unspeakable things with the broken end of the paint brush, as in, if you're faking it, you'll react to something so grossly untoward. I don't really tend to think they were sexually abused children. I think the major problems were the constant management of Burke's insane jealousy, his potential asperger's/autism and both children's anxiety and toileting issues. All things that might be perceived as shameful and embarrassing to their parents, especially Patsy. I don't think asperger's or autism were anywhere near as widely known as they are today. Hell, my sister (who was later deans' list in college and graduate school) was labeled as "LD" (learning disabled) and held back when she was in the sixth grade. Her learning style was a little bit different by 1980 standards but no way in hell was she intellectually challenged. It's just that nobody knew better at the time.* I bet they just didn't know what to do with Burke and his behavior. I don't even know that a well paid psychiatrist in 1995 would have *really known how to effectively treat him.

- I definitely think John and Patsy covered it up. The part about Patsy wearing the clothes from the night before doesn't shock me that much. I often re-wear clean clothes but I NEVER, EVER get into bed without having taken a shower first. But besides that, I think if they woke up to a crisis, it makes sense that she grabbed the closest thing she could find. 

- I wonder if White really did see JB when he went down into the basement the first time.  I tend to think John put her there after they discovered she was dead somewhere else in the basement. I agree that John put the too-big Bloomies on her. Side note, I don't think it was weird that Patsy bought Bloomies for her niece - they were kind of a designer thing and something the cool girls had as I recall. I remember when I was 11-12 years old and we had to change for gym class. Cool underwear was a thing. 

I guess maybe Burke panicked and woke up John and Patsy when he realized what he had done. I think they were up a whole lot earlier than they said they were.  Long enough to do all the things they did to stage the body and the basement and write a three page freaking ransom note. 

*The silver lining is she is a gifted teacher today. Because of everything she went through as a young person in school, she has a special knack for reaching troubled students, especially in reading and math. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by RedDelicious

[CrazyInAlabama]

The worst thing about this case after all of these years is that unless there is a death bed confession, or something similar, we will never know who actually did this, because everything was botched so badly by a police force that refused to call in the state police investigators from the first second.      I doubt the FBI, or Colorado state people would have sent John Ramsey out to search the house.    I think competent investigators would have kept everyone in the living room, and then done searches and not allowed any of the family or friends to wander around the house. 

I really think that when Patsy discovered JonBenet was missing, that she panicked, and instead of calling the police immediately, she thought the little girl was kidnapped, and did the note so the police would have a full scale investigation immediately, and call the FBI in.      I think she also thought her son might be involved, and wanted the note to diverse suspicion to an outsider.     I think she just grabbed at any idea that ran through her head, and didn't have a plan for anything.    Also, she didn't strike me as all that bright or clever, so if she had done something, she would have tried a stupid cover up, not hiding the body in the basement of her home.     I think John knew who did the note, and did everything he could to protect Patsy from the idea that she wrote that ridiculous ransom note.   I'm sure he realized that Patsy was on borrowed time, and her cancer would come back, and he wanted Burke to have a mother until then.  

Edited February 14, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[RedDelicious]

Anyone watching Dr. Oz? It's complete nonsense. They will never, ever give up Burke.

ETA: I don't know who is more full of it, John Andrew or Dr. Oz. John Andrew still acts like the ransom note was real and an obsessed individual cased the house. 

As more time goes by and true crime gains enthusiastic followers, the proverbial writing is on the wall. Everyone knows who did it and the family has to continue the spin machine to conceal the truth.

Also ETA: pre-jaw Botox Bethenny could play Patsy in a movie. It isn't perfect casting but it suddenly dawned on me the other day that Patsy reminds me of Bethenny. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by RedDelicious
Language! The children.

[RedDelicious]

James Kolar's book Foreign Faction is on Amazon.  It was nowhere to be found for a long time! I got it on Kindle.

[TattleTeeny]

That book was really good -- but oh my god, the editorial errors were crazy!

[Elizzikra]

Did anyone watch the new three part series on Netflix? Did it change anyone's thinking?

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Did anyone watch the new three part series on Netflix? Did it change anyone's thinking?

I watched it.  It was interesting to see how unwilling the Boulder Police Department seemed to be to accept help.  This was the FIRST homicide they dealt with in the year the JonBenet died - and it was at the end of December.

My main takeaway was how weird that female detective was.  She was so afraid of John and their friends who were there at the house that she was mentally counting how many bullets she had???

I do think the series was slanted in favor of the Ramseys.  I've done a lot of reading about the case, and there were a lot of details I'd read about elsewhere that weren't included in the series.

IMO, JonBenet got up after her parents went to bed, went downstairs and found Burke playing with his new toys.  She grabbed some of his pineapple to annoy him (as little sisters sometimes do), and he shoved her, causing her to hit her head.  Patsy heard the disturbance, realized that JonBenet was not likely to recover, and did everything she could to protect her remaining child.  After writing the 3-page(!) ransom letter, she woke John up and the two of them together created the crime scene in the basement.  

This series showed the handwriting in the note and handwriting of John and Patsy.  IMO, there were some noticeable similarities in Patsy's writing to the writing in the note.  And WHY would a ransom note include a phrase "Use that good southern common sense of yours."