S04.E02: The Lion And The Rose

[janjan]

I mixed up my Wildling women there for a moment. - Shimpy

Here's a mnemonic to help you: Ygritte is the one who is always perfectly coifed, even in the rain, in battle, and when falling off the Wall. Osha is the one with a dead rat on her head.

[90PercentGravity]

If you're in the United States, just think of Occupational Safety and Health Administration and that time Osha had to snog Theon for her job, which was certainly an OSHA violation.

[izabella]

Hiding poison in Sansa's necklace seems awfully convoluted. It's not like they were being strip searched. Margery has plenty of cleavage to hide things in. 

Speaking of cleavage, I couldn't help but notice (on my second or third rewind), that the camera was pointed straight down Cersei's bodice a couple of times when Joffrey was dying in her arms.  Cuz, it's HBO!

[Zanne]

I was thinking that the necklace Oleanna tossed out the window might have been payment for this poisoning. She wouldn't want to chance being seen handing money or valuables over to some stranger, but "accidentally" losing a necklace (out the window) could get the payment into the right hands should they be waiting outside.

[Isazouzi]

 

So Dorne's illegitimate children have the last name Sand and the North's children have the last name Snow Jeez, I'd personally try to move to Dorne if it were up to me.

Nice catch! So what name do the bastards from the center have? Rock? Grass? Does Gendry have a name?

 

I was thinking that the necklace Oleanna tossed out the window might have been payment for this poisoning. She wouldn't want to chance being seen handing money or valuables over to some stranger, but "accidentally" losing a necklace (out the window) could get the payment into the right hands should they be waiting outside.

Yes, last week I initially thought that the Fool had picked up that necklace and given it to Sansa. But I think the one he gave her is different from the one Olenna threw off. But it could have been payment.

I really like this theory but I agree that this poison scheme seems very convoluted. So many events that led to Joffrey's death were impossible to predict.

The only thing we know for sure, thanks to some posters, is that Olenna did take a gem of Sansa's necklace.  

[Llywela]

I'm still really curious about the framing of the episode, which does point to Olenna. I keep thinking about the marriage ceremony - there was a line in the vows which said something like, 'a curse on anyone who divides them', and the camera was pointing past the 'happy' couple straight at Olenna in that moment. Then during the feast there were a number of moments when the camera lingered on her quite pointedly - if this were a different kind of show, I'd take that narrative framing as deliberate foreshadowing of her guilt or complicity. But with Game of Thrones...I don't know. I can't see a clear motive.

[Isazouzi]

 I can't see a clear motive.

That's what makes it so great. We'd be so disappointed if we could identify the culprit easily. The fun is in trying to understand the convoluted way these people's minds work, especially those who go for a long con. I love that it might take a whole season or more to see the pieces fall into place.

[Isazouzi]

I rewatched the scene and Lady Olenna does take a gem, it's clearly missing afterwards and no, part of the necklace is not hidden under the dress, you can see it on top of it with the missing bit.

[capt planet]

It's missing, but there wasn't a clear shot of her before Olenna approached, so we can't see if it was missing the entire time or not.  Now, I generally think Olenna could have been involved in the plot, but I just can't accept that pinching a stone off of Sansa's necklace would be key to orchestrating this murder.  What would that look like, anyway?  The stones dissolved into the poison used to kill Joffrey?  And she'd steal a stone, why, to frame Sansa?  "Oh here's a stone containing poison...oh my, it matches the necklace Sansa was wearing! She did it!!"

[90PercentGravity]

Maybe Olena is just a clepto.

[stillshimpy]

I think this is what is likely with the necklace.  Dontos told Sansa that his house was once a "House on the Rise" and that his was the last evidence of that.  The Martells have also been clawing their way up and out of the lower ranks of houses.  

Olenna likely recognized Donto's mother's necklace, because she knew her and they were at court together.  

Sansa seems to have bugged out with Dontos at his urging.  Olenna knowing that she was wearing a necklace that belonged to his family is likely going to be used to locate Sansa and it was Dontos who figured out a way to poision the King's Pie.  Why?  Well among other things, he sure has reason to hate Joffrey, who tried to have him publicly drowned with wine (that can't have felt good).  

But that makes more sense to me than dissolving poison gems.  Olenna clearly took note of that necklace.  We know it was given to Sansa and belonged to Dontos mother...who Olenna likely knew...because his family was in competition for stature with the Martells. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

The figure in rags wasn't on the dead horse though.  We just saw it in profile.  It could mean the figure in rags is surrounded, or held captive too.  I don't think a) that person is dead, he looked fully fleshed and a normal color b) I don't know if that could be Benjen or not but do we even think that the Ice Zombies have any personality or ability to speak left?

The person in rags from Bran's vision that I saw, was the dead girl from S1E1 at the very opening. The dead wight girl. She just hadn't turned around yet. She does that exact turn in the first ep. I think he just saw a lot of visions of things other people saw or things he didn't himself see but that WE saw. I saw bits of a lot of things - the crows flying at Sam/Gilly, Ned in the black cell, the dead horse Sam saw in S2E10, the wights seen by the NW men who were killed in the first scene of the show, etc.

 

I know Ygritte [edited, actually, turns out it was Osha) talked about someone she was with coming back from the dead like that, but I don't think he was still him, was he?

Yeah her good man was killed and came back as a wight.

I do think the Tyrells were in on it but I'm not so sure the necklace was directly involved. I see the photo now where folks are saying a gem is missing. That is one interpretation, but I'm not totally sure if that little hanging bit always had a gem. Without being able to see the mirror image side of the necklace, it's possible it could just be the way it was designed.

I like the spec tho that Olenna may have at least RECOGNIZED the necklace and thought that was "interesting" and yes it may become essential to divining who might have spirited Sansa away. Sansa goes missing, so does Dontos, and oh, didn't I just see her wearing the Dontos family jewels??  I'm not sure I get the vibe that the Tyrells would intentionally implicate the innocent Sansa in something though. But I'm never sure how much of their kindness is an act vs them really trying to claw their way to the top but not deliberately hurting any innocent parties in the process. They were trying to use her in a marriage pact, but didn't seem callous about it. Maybe I feel that way about the Tyrells because Loras tends to be nicer than necessary even when he could justify being nastier (like his confrontation with Jaime. He just made a smart remark but came off the classier of the 2, and I think that's how the Tyrells like to operate. They get their point across, but without sinking to your level.)

[janjan]

Radiant: Sansa goes missing, so does Dontos, and oh, didn't I just see her wearing the Dontos family jewels??

 

No, those were Theon's. Oh no! I didn't say that. Cancel! Rewind!

[Isazouzi]

 

It's missing, but there wasn't a clear shot of her before Olenna approached, so we can't see if it was missing the entire time or not.

I rewatched episode 1 to check, and yes the necklace was whole when the Fool gave it to Sansa.

http://imageshack.com/a/img838/4706/95rt.jpg

The show is very good about details, I can't believe that the missing gem is an accident, that Sansa would have lost it before the wedding or before Olenna talked to her. I don't know what kind of part it plays in the story, but I'm convinced it's no accident.

[abelard]

I love the idea of Olenna stealing a jewel off of Sansa's necklace and putting it in Joffrey's cup to poison Joffrey mostly b/c: 1) Diana Rigg as stealthy thief and secret murderer?  AWESOME, and 2) it would be like the ending of Hamlet when Claudius drops a pearl into the "victory cup" of wine (meant for Hamlet) and Queen Gertrude drinks from the cup not realizing the pearl is poison, and has poisoned the wine.

HOWEVER, I think I'm starting to dismiss the Tyrells as the murderers b/c of lack of motive.  Maybe Olenna Tyrell wanted Joffrey dead so he wouldn't be violently abusive towards Margery.  But Margery I think would want Joffrey alive long enough to "put a baby in her belly" (as she told Renley).  I think Margery will be ill-served by Joffrey's dying before their wedding is consummated.  Now Margery is "damaged goods" on the marriage market (2 marriages to 2 kings, both unconsummated, both dead within days or hours of wedding her) and NOT *the* Queen after all.  She was Queen not even for a day and now she'll be a widow with no power.  Tommen will be King, I guess, and Margery will be nothing if Cersei and Tywin have anything to do say about it.  So, methinks...it wasn't the Tyrells.

Sansa had the most motive, by far.  But...she also has the least likely personality for it.  I can't think of anything less Sansa-like than secretly poisoning Joffrey in front of an entire wedding party.  Maybe in private.  But whoever did this did it for show. 

I am sort of thinking it's Cersei.  If I really think of her as a monster who would kill her own son rather than lose her position and see an upstart (Margery) effectively take her place, then here's what I propose:

-there was some poisonous reaction between the wine and pie COMBINED

-the dechained Maester (Qyburn?) helped her create this two-step poison.  When he said "No reaction" or whatever in ep 1 it meant that he'd succeeded in making a wine that no one was poisoned by, when they drank it ALONE

-maybe this was why Cersei said the pie had to go to the dogs in the kennel, and not to the poor starving KL people, as Margery had commanded.  It's not that Cersei wanted just to spite Margery by countermanding her orders, it was that if the pie, which had some traces of poison (even though the poison wouldn't have been activated except in combination with the wine), had gotten out to a hundred people, there might have been evidence lying all over KL, and Cersei didn't want that, however small the chance that someone would have figured out that the pie was spiked.

-Cersei *did* know that Joffrey was completely cray-cray.  Maybe she thought that by replacing Joffrey with her other, saner son, she was actually doing the 7K a favor!!  In addition to holding onto her Queen Regent status for another...6 years or so? (depending on how old Tommen is)  And Tommen may be much much more controllable (by her) than Joffrey.

[walnutqueen]

I've been reading the unspoiled episode threads here and there, and it feels very much like reading the script for an episode of CSI: Westeros. 

Y'all belong on the ID Channel!  :-)

[WhiteStumbler]

The wedding cake looked disgusting. Was the weird "reaction" shot of the wedding cake after Joffrey had split it open showing a dead dove, or was it showing that the inside was contaminated with bird crap? Seems to me that if you have a bunch of doves in a somewhat enclosed space, you are going to get a lot of bird "shift" (as Sansa would say) inside of it in a pretty short time. Maybe Joffrey had an extreme reaction to dove dung, like hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (from mouse feces) but much faster?

Rickon has shot to the top of my "Now Serving... Death" list. Bran is Beyond the Wall, Jon has his bad-ass sword and the remnants of the Nights Watch, but poor Rickon has... Osha. Oh, and Shaggydog. Actually, Osha IS pretty fierce. Locke & Co. might have their hands full with those 3. Ugh, HATING Team Bolton right now.

ETA: NO WAY does Cersei kill Joffrey. Whatever his faults, he was her firstborn son with Jaime. Her reaction was crazed and sincere - she was / is destroyed by the death of "King" Joffrey.

Edited April 15, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[90PercentGravity]

It was a pie. I'm 99.9% certain it was to show the dead dove, a bad omen for sure.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Hmmm OK along with the full shot of the undamaged necklace, it DOES appear like a gem is missing. I am going to spec that it will just be used to implicate Sansa though, rather than to smuggle the poison itself. ie maybe found somewhere the food was being prepared etc. Maybe the Tyrells aren't above framing an innocent party after all - or maybe they only framed her because they had a plan to whisk her away and thought it'd help Sansa out while giving them a scapegoat at the same time. Although I can't imagine her being safe for very long...

[WhiteStumbler]

I will miss Joffrey because he was such a dependably loathsome character, and in a world painted in shades of gray it is nice to have some black as a signpost: Here is One of the Worst.

I will miss Jack Gleeson's portrayal of Joffrey: One favorite moment was him stumbling over the word "charity" last season, like it was a foreign concept in a foreign language. Brilliant.

Mostly, I will miss waiting for the little d-bag to finally die already.

ETA: Who knew Margaery was an emo girl? 'Sad songs make me have all the feels.'

Edited April 15, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[abelard]

Maybe the Tyrells aren't above framing an innocent party after all - or maybe they only framed her because they had a plan to whisk her away and thought it'd help Sansa out while giving them a scapegoat at the same time. Although I can't imagine her being safe for very long...

 

I could see the Tyrells thinking like this but that would mean WAR between the Tyrells and the Lannisters.  But maybe, if Margery, Loras, and Grandma Tyrell (and Oaf Tyrell) can get out of KL right away, war is what they wanted, in a sense.  If they go to war and the Tyrells win, AND if they have Sansa at Highgarden, then they win the Iron Throne and secure the loyalty of the North (possibly installing Sansa + Loras at Winterfell) -- the North seems like an iffy proposition otherwise.  Maybe what they wanted was to a) kill Joffrey, b) create a ton of confusion as to who killed Joffrey, and make it clear it couldn't have possibly been them b/c why would they do that when Margery had just married Joffrey, c) sneak Sansa away and into their safekeeping, d) be accused of shady dealings b/c of sneaking Sansa away (who is a Lannister let's remember), and e) declare war on the Lannisters (or be declared war on by the Lannisters) b/c of the Sansa thing, and the possible Joffrey thing, and all the while, claim that they were only acting morally and righteously and they do not know *what* the Lannisters are talking about.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Abelard: A lot of things would have to go exactly right for the Tyrell's to prosper from this killing.

Could Margery just marry Tomen, a non-monster Lannister, since her marriage to Joffrey was never consummated?

If yes, that points me a little more to House Tyrell as the power behind the Offs of Joffs.

If no, then I have no idea. Lots of suspects, no idea who it was. Pretty sure it wasn't Tyrion, though. He looked far too baffled.

[MickleThePickle]

Couple thoughts on poison and the Tyrells.

I believe the Tyrell -> Dontos -> Sansa -> Tyrell theory is the likely one. There are enough degrees of separation to avoid a clear link to Lady O as opposed to her riding down to the poison market and picking up a vial. The necklace gift, Lady O picking out a gem, the movement of the cup and Dontos being there immediately to sweep Sansa away is way too much to ignore IMO. The pie was served to a lot of people as was the wine, so yeah. All that said, I hope I am completely wrong and caught completely off guard.

As for why they may have done it-

Perhaps the Tyrells have come to Kings Landing in order to pry power away from the Lannisters. Lady O is well aware of the Lannister's debt (and keeps reminding Tywin) and an epic wedding would help drain their fortune even further. The Lannisters hold several important positions of power including King, Hand, Queen Regent and Master of Coin (I suppose.). The Hand is appointed by the King as is the Master of Coin and the Kings Guard is sworn to protect the current king. With the King dead, all other positions of power fall like dominos -IF - Tommen is discredited as a Lannister love child before taking the throne. Lady O knows about Joff and Tommen's parentage as shown in the episode where she asked Tywin about the "rumors."

So, if that were to happen, we have already seen the throne can be taken by whoever has the fatter wallet and city watch. That would seem like a much bigger power play than having Margery become the Queen. Just take the throne!

Edited April 15, 2014 by MickleThePickle

[90PercentGravity]

Did A Show tell us who the girl with Ramsay was? Another Bolton bastard?

[Pallas]

Mostly, I will miss waiting for the little d-bag to finally die already.

You are so right, White Stumbler!  I did feel like an over-indulged kid at about 11:30 Christmas morning, an hour after the last gift had been opened.  So I got the precious plastic horsie I'd been longing for and hinting for and making myself a pain about for the past four weeks: now what?  Is that all there is?  

Thinking about King Joffrey, First of His Infamy...until the moment he was deftly murdered at his own wedding, it seemed ironically true that his only true legacy, the one thing he ever did of historic magnitude, was execute Ned Stark.  That's it.  That's all the little shit was put on earth to do, it seems.  The War was inevitable, once Ned informed Stannis and the Council that Robert had no heir, and the Lannisters refused to stand down.  It would have been a very different war, however: Renly would likely have challenged Stannis anyway, but the North would not have seceded if Ned had been allowed to fulfill his part of the dirty deal and take the Black.  (He might be with Jon Snow now: ouch.)  

Nothing else Joffrey did in his life affected anyone else other than the Starks and Ros of Winterfell.  In death, though, he has set off a whirlwind.  

[izabella]

No air conditioning. I think I'd prefer to live in Highgarden.

Also, I just realized we are missing someone from our list of suspects:

Littlefinger!

Why? Because he's Littlefinger!

Yeah, I know he's not there, but if he can attempt to murder Bran in Winterfell while he's in King's Landing, then he can murder Joeffrey while he's in the Eryie.

Okay, I don't seriously think it was Littlefinger, but I just realized we still haven't seen that smarmy git in either of the two episodes this season. It makes me nervous. What dastardly deeds is he doing off screen when we aren't looking?

I'm curious about LIttlefinger, too.  Could he have put some plan in motion to have Joffrey killed at his wedding?  I wouldn't put it past him, chaos is a ladder and all that. 

Could he benefit somehow from throwing KL into chaos after the death of their King?  Would that help him get Lyssa and her lands and soldiers for himself?   Would he be better off with Joffrey dead? 

Being on a ship to the Eyrie is a good alibi, but he could have paid someone to poison Joffrey's plate of pie. 

[ChocButterfly]

Ehhh! Finally got to see it! Late, but at least I didn't have to wait until tomorrow. And wao, what an episode! By the end I was cheering and clapping, I thought I'd have to wait yet ANOTHER freaking season to see Joffrey die. At least I didn't think it was going to be so soon.

I didn't catch Olynna taking a jewel from the necklace. I'll have to watch again, but the poison jewel thing seems so far fetched, it doesn't even make sense. Why would they need a necklace to hide poison? They could have carried it anywhere. How did they know Sansa would wear it? How'd they know Sansa wouldn't notice Olynna taking the rock? And most importantly, why go all the trouble with trying to get Margeary the Queen and then when it's finally just 9 months away sabotage their own plans?

People keep mentioning that Marge could get engage to Tommen, why? How? I mean, she's already twice a widow now. The Lannisters weren't too happy to join their houses, originally, but they did it because the needed their military support and their grain. The war is over and I bet they have gotten a lot of grain from them already, sure they could get more, but they I'm sure Twyin is more than happy to just marry Cersei. And Tommen is a boy, it'd take years to be able to marry him. Either way, it'd be incredibly stupid for the Tyrells to risk everything they have accomplished so far on a mere possibility that Marge could marry Tommen.

Speaking of Tommen, when I saw him next to Cersei I was like "who the he'll is that??" They hadn't shown him in years, and now all of a sudden, they showed him at least 3 times in this ep. I should have known there was a reason for that. At least the boy had the decency of looking uncomfortable when Joffrey was humiliating his uncle. But you know who was smiling during the whole thing, apart from obviously Cersei?? TWYN!! Ugh, I hate him.

I don't get the Littlefinger connection, unless the guy is omnipresent. I guess he could have planned it from afar, but the, anyone could. Also, someone mentioned his involvement in Bran' s assassination attack...when did he have anything to do with that other than the knife? I thought it was pretty clear that the twins did it.

I like the theory that Cersei killed Joffrey, while trying to poison Marge. It makes a lot of sense, plus she was so sure she wouldn't marry Loras. It also explains why she contradicted Marge' s orders about the food, she knew it wouldn't matter soon. And it would explain why she was so happy.

I have a question, what did Tyrion asked Bronn to do ( or Pod, I can't remember) when the dwarves were finishing the "presentation"? He said something about giving them 20 coins each??

Edited April 16, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[janjan]

Things noticed on rewatch:

Joffs doesn't look thrilled with Tyrion's gift of a book, but graciously thanks his uncle because Tywin gave him the fish-eye . But when he gets the sword and starts swinging it around, he chops the book to smithereens.

The Tyrells showed that they aren't gratuitously cruel. When Joffs is being a jerk at the head table, Olenna looks disgusted, Ser Loras gets up and leaves, and Margie at first looks uncomfortable and then plasters on a bright smile and distracts Joff from his doings. She has that down to an art.

Ser Dontos gets Sansa away long before Joffs dies, and even before it's obvious that it's more than choking on food. Whatever the scheme is, he's in on it. Saving her seems like an act of kindness on the part of the conspirators, which rules out Tywin and Cersei.

Oberyn, King of the Fairies (TM Shakespeare), looks like a match for Tywin in their exchange about how it's not nice to look down on people or to slaughter women and children -- he then reminds Tywin where Mycella is.

I, too, didn't get why Tyrion to Podric to pay off the performing dwarves.

Bron is sure Shae got on the ship, but he didn't see the ship leave. He also mentions that someone was following them to the pier. Uh oh.

As Joffs is in his death throes, it's his mum and dad (Cersei and Jaime) hovering over him. Awww.

Bran's vision: Yes, those were clips from earlier eps. There was Bran's flight into to Winterfell crypt (warging the 3-eyed raven, as we now know), Ned's face in the KL dungeon, the wight girl from S1E1 in rags, and a bunch of other stuff I didn't catch -- maybe future stuff? Somehow that told Bran where he had to go, which is more than it told me.

[Overwhelming No]

I just assumed Tyrion wanted the performers to be paid, or paid extra, because he felt they were being belittled, (see what I did there?)

[90PercentGravity]

I, too, didn't get why Tyrion to Podric to pay off the performing dwarves.

 

Because he identified with their humiliation and knew that they were being exploited and probably not being paid enough to humiliate themselves in that manner.

[WhiteStumbler]

RE: Bran's vision - I distinctly heard "north" at the end of the 'look for me under the tree' song. One of the visions looked like a WW looking out from behind ice (or, creepier, looking IN at someone frozen in ice).

RE: Dwarf payoff - I figured it was for their embarrassment.

janjan: "Saving her seems like an act of kindness on the part of the conspirators, which rules out Tywin and Cersei." Great point. Now that the Game of Clue (Westeros Edition) has started, it is a wonder to me that Joff lasted as long as he did. Of the major characters in KL, who *didn't* want the little shit killed?!?

[Pallas]

I don't think Cersei killed Joffrey, not even to retain her position, not even to deny that position to Margaery.  Much as she loathes Margaery, she knows what it really is to be Queen, she knows Joffrey and she knows that he won't pay homage to anyone -- especially to any female -- for very long.  I think Cersei's brave front at the wedding was part pretense and part spite.  "Small pleasures," as she put it: gobsmacking Brienne, humiliating Pycelle.  Cersei is always playing to the crowd of herself.  

The kind of shit that Cersei's full of is the kind of shit that doesn't kill a King -- or maybe anyone, by her own hand, despite what Jaime said.  She might have killed Robert any time after she decided she was done bearing children (and having him serve as their father), and been Queen Regent for far longer.  And while it's possible she regrets waiting as long as she did, that would mean she learned better, and I don't think Cersei learns.  I think she would rather kill herself.  

Beyond all that, I think Cersei loved the little shit.  He troubled her, he hurt her, he wasn't what she thought he'd be, but she loved him. She had no skin where he was concerned; she felt that Joffrey, more than anyone else, was made from her.  She would kill herself first. She would kill anyone else first.

[stillshimpy]

janjan: "Saving her seems like an act of kindness on the part of the conspirators, which rules out Tywin and Cersei."

That is a really good point, Janjan, and the only one that actually convinces me that it wasn't Cersei.  Yes, Cersei did love Joffrey, but he was deeply twisted, vicious and broken.  He was supposed to be the person who helped her realize all her dreams.  Instead, he was the person continuing to crush them.  Plus, she did have a son who died and the circumstances are suspect.  So I think she'd kill Joffrey, just as she was prepared to kill Tommen in the Throne Room.  If Cerse felt there was a good enough reason to kill one her children, I think she would and it wouldn't just be about mercy killing.  Joffrey was an epic failure at the realization of Cersei long held and difficult to enact dream.  

However, she wouldn't have made him suffer and no way in all seven heavens or hells would she have done anything to try and save Sansa from anything.  Tywin wouldn't have cared if Joffrey suffered and he had put Tyrion in situations where he expected that Tyrion would die, so he was willing to facilitate his death, if not plan it. However, he clearly hates Tyrion and never tried to have him outright murdered.  So it seems unlikely that Tywin would a) murder Joffrey b) choose that moment to do so.  That last is far more compelling to me.  

He'd also do absolutely nothing to spare Sansa, despite the fact that she is his daughter-in-law. 

Dontos is very clearly part of whatever happened. 

Onwards to other parts of the story: I think Tyrion told Poderic to pay the dwarves handsomely so that they could come somewhat closer to being actually compensated for the humiliation they had to suffer.  Figures of ridicule and mockery for hire.  Sure, Tyrion had empathy for that -- and he's always been very aware of what his lot in life might have been like had he not been a Lannister -- but paying them handsomely at least gives them something to really enjoy, rather than enduring that for a-pittance-that-pays-for-their-daily-bread wages

Ned is pretty clearly in Bran's vision too, but I think it was just an old shot of Ned, likely in the dungeons.  Actually, the most startling thing about that vision was that Bran looks like a full grown man, at least facially.  

[janjan]

                Bran's vision... told Bran where he had to go, which is more than it told me.

It should have just told him to go to the local electronics store to pick-up a DVR or a Blu-Ray. Much easier, and safer, than gadding about North of the Wall. - Constantinople

And get something to eat on the way. Why are they nibbling on nuts and berries when Summer has killed a deer? Since Bran was wolf-warging at the time, he knows where the carcass is. Sheesh.

Bran might as well go buy the boxed set, since his visions have already sullied him. Pretty soon, we're gonna have to banish him from this Habitat.

[stillshimpy]

I'm sure it would have to be particularly appealing to Bran to be able to do something that gave him what felt like freedom of movement, but I was similarly a little puzzled by "Can't you have Summer hunt for all of you? Also isn't Meera supposed to be Aces with the bow? Maybe some Wildling bunny or...?" 

I try not to spend too much time thinking about how the Wildlings are supposed to have lived in a land that was perpetually winter. 

I could see Littlefinger wanting to off Joff for a couple of reasons.

Joffrey is unpredictable, and Littlefinger sees unpredictability as his turf. Perhaps more pratically, I doubt Littlefinger has forgotten when Cersei ordered her guards to slit his throat, then stopped it just in time and then said "Power is power". Joffrey largely thinks the same way, only Joffrey wouldn't have stopped. Tommen is much safer.

Back in the day, Littlefinger wanted to back Renly's bid for the crown, seemingly for exactly those reasons.  It would be a swift coup, the power structure he was a part of would just remain in place and he would be t he Chaos master.  

However, I don't think he was in on this one for the simple reason that thus far he's getting what he wants out of the deal and beyond that, I think he's past the point that he'd do anything to try and help Sansa.  

One fo the more challenging things about trying to figure out who would want to kill Joffrey is sorting out the number of people who would want to and putting them in order.  

The number of people I can't imagine wanting to kill Joffrey is a very small number.  Basically Joffrey himself.   People who haven't met Joffrey too, I guess.  But his reputation probably has reached throughout the land, so even that is sort of "Well....can't count on that one."  

Jaime? I think there's a chance that Jaime didn't quite have enough of an opportunity to get to know Joffrey as King enough to not want to kill him on some level.   Maybe.  He had been back for weeks though, so even that's not a given. 

[90PercentGravity]

I can think of a scenario where Shae might have thought that killing off Joffrey and whisking Sansa away would not only protect Tyrion, but also allow them to be together. She could have enlisted Ser Dantos to deliver the poison and get Sansa out of dodge. The irony of her attempt to protect Tyrion making him a target seems like somewhere A Show would go.

[stillshimpy]

I hope Lady Walda brings a little color to the Dreadfort.  It's so damn dreary there.  Perhaps some light blues or greens.

Poor woman, normally I'd think, "well, at least she's not hanging out with Frey any longer" , but she just got moved into the same house with Ramsay and Bolton.  That's not just an "out of the frying pan into the fire scenario" that's "out of the frying pan, down through all seven levels of hell, back up for good measure and back down the worst one."  

They flay people.  Like other people crochet, or in this world, make freaky doll wheels to appeal to the gods. 

I don't think you often get to say, "better off with the slavers, probably" but when it's a case of slavers vs. flayers...tough call.  Depends, do the slavers flay? 'cause that might be the determining factor there.  Not that she had a choice between slavers or flayers, but ...maybe better off with Frey. 

Having Bolton and Ramsay for company means she better decorate with something absorbent that hides stains, because ew. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

Someone said upthread (can't find it now) that the reason why we had the Eww...Boltons (my new name for that House) in this ep alongside Joffrey's murder is so that we could see that just as one villain dies, another rises (another whole set of them rises).  The Eww...Boltons are so disgusting, though.  At least the Lannisters are clean and well-dressed and pretty most of the time (S2 and S3 Jaime exempted - he was still fairly pretty, though, despite the grime).  I don't want Joffrey back but I don't want to spend more time with the Eww...B clan either.

I do like the theory that the murderer can't have been Cersei simply because it's likely that Dontos the Fool was in on it, and that Cersei would never have sent him to help rescue Sansa, like, ever.  I count that as another point in the "Olenna Tyrell did it" column.

HOWEVER, just quickly back to my Tyrion theory: What if Tyrion wanted to pay the dwarf reenactors because THEY were his secret assassins?  I would love it if somehow they had access to the pie backstage or something and poisoned it for Tyrion.  Tyrion said to Podrick to pay the performers 20 gold dragons each, and "I'll have to think of another present to give to the King."  Which could be ominous in retrospect.  

At the same time, I just don't think of Tyrion as a murderer in, really, any scenario.  And also, it would be weird of the actual perpetrator of anything got arrested for his crimes on this show.  That's not how Show rolls.  Tyrion being the prime suspect and thrown in the dungeons basically PROVES he's innocent of the crime.  

[janjan]

Abelard: I would love it if somehow [the dwarves] had access to the pie backstage or something and poisoned it for Tyrion.  Tyrion said to Podrick to pay the performers 20 gold dragons each, and "I'll have to think of another present to give to the King."  Which could be ominous in retrospect.

On rewatch, I took Tyrions "another present" comment to refer to the book that Joffers shredded [Tyrion's first present]. But why would Tyrion link that comment to paying the dwarves? So maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I don't think the pie was poisoned, because that would be poor planning on the conspirators' part -- too many people other than Joffers might eat it. And besides, it was full of pigeon shit so maybe nobody would eat it..

Unless .. unless .. unless .. the plan was to kill BOTH Joffs and Margie. The bride and groom reliably eat the first pieces, and the fast-acting poison would kill them soon enough to warn others off. But who would want to kill both of them? The mind reels.

ETA: Oh wait, now I think it was indeed the Tyrells. Margie would know not to eat the pie, and she offered it to Joffs to make sure he did. I see the subtle hand of Olenna in all this.

Edited April 16, 2014 by janjan

[abelard]

ETA: Oh wait, now I think it was indeed the Tyrells. Margie would know not to eat the pie, and she offered it to Joffs to make sure he did. I see the subtle hand of Olenna in all this.

 

Totally.  Bride and groom get first bites of pie.  Margery makes absofu**inglutely sure that she feeds Joffrey and eats none of it herself.  Olenna would have orchestrated the whole thing beforehand, Margery seems to be a very good performer, playing out the scripts that her Granny writes for her.  (Though Olenna seemed 100% against the Let's-Back-Renley thing, that apparently was driven mostly by Loras.)

[ChocButterfly]

Hmmm, ok, so I watched it again and yeah, the Tyrells look all guilty as hell. The cup is indeed hidden from our view and Margaery is handling it all the time, same as with the pie. Also lady Olynna is in front of the cup. BUT, I still think it wouldn't make any sense for them to kill Joffrey now, right before their wedding night. Why wouldn't they just wait a few more hours?? A few more hours for the marriage to be consummated and then poison him at breakfast or at any time. She wouldn't even have to sleep with him for real, just get pregnant by someone else. If she was afraid of what he might do on their wedding now, they could've slip Joffrey something to sleep and pretend the next morning that they had sex. Joffrey is so insecure, that he would've gone with it just to avoid embarrassment.

The Tyrells have been planning this whole wedding for AGES, now they'd mess it up for being so afraid of crazy Joffrey that they couldn't wait a few more hours??? I can't buy that.

The only thing that is for sure is that Dontos was in on it. So maybe he planned it all by himself?

About Bran, isn't he North already, where else is he suposed to go? Norther?

[izabella]

The Tyrells have been planning this whole wedding for AGES, now they'd mess it up for being so afraid of crazy Joffrey that they couldn't wait a few more hours??? I can't buy that.

Maybe they didn't mess anything up.  Maybe the wedding was just a ruse just to kill Joffrey, like the Red Wedding was to kill the Starks.  Do the Tyrells have a revenge-type reason to kill Tywin's grandson?

[janjan]

Izabella: Do the Tyrells have a revenge-type reason to kill Tywin's grandson?

Not that we know of. I still think it's to marry Margie to Tommen (who did look at least mid-teens at the wedding), or else just to disrupt the Lannister dynasty and see where the chips fall. Maybe they forgot the First Law of Westeros: If disruption leads to chaos, Littlefinger wins.

Being twice-widowed doesn't dim Margaery's appeal in the dynastic marriage game. Just think, Montezuma's daughter was twice widowed by the time she was only 12 years old (Aztec husbands who married into the royal family). Cortes then married her to a Spanish nobleman, and for good measure, impregnated her himself. (He acknowledged the child and left him a large inheritance.) Cersei put her finger on it: noble women were traded around like brood mares.

[Pallas]

Tyrion actually said, "I'll have to think of another way to thank the King."  Small difference but no "present" mentioned.

If Olenna Tyrell was the mastermind, I think we have to think of another way to think about the Tyrells. They may be no more monolithic than the Baratheons were, or the Lannisters are, for that matter.  Janjan pointed out earlier,

And she (Olenna) compared (Mace) to his father, her late husband, who rode his horse over a cliff while watching a falcon. She made it clear that seeking an alliance with the Lannisters was a lot like watching that falcon.

"The Tyrells" may not have done it: only Olenna.  (With Margaery's foreknowledge, most likely.)  Olenna may have come to the decision recently, as she observed the grotesquerie that was Joffrey.  She may have come to the decision only after Tywin annexed Loras to Cersei.  She may even have come to the decision a year ago and all but gleefully when her son made the alliance with the devil. She may have waited all her life to see the Lannisters brought down, or at least, made to suffer; hell, she may have begun life in Castermere.  And she was positively stony during Joffrey's "primary entertainment" at Renly and Loras's expense. As the Renly figure riding a Loras figure was getting goosed in his or Loras's bare ass by the Stannis, Loras left in a huff, Margaery looked sickened but Olenna looked scary as Tywin.   

Olenna seems not to have shared her son's enthusiasm for selling her lovely granddaughter to one king-with-an-asterisk after another.  An asterisk for a crown, and something off about his interests.  And Joffrey was not only illegitimate; he was, as Olenna suspected, the offspring of incest between twins. She may never have cared for the game of thrones, or lost interest as she mellowed -- but she may have cared a lot about mixing that with her lineage.  

So perhaps Olenna didn't give two figs about waiting for Margaery to be ravished or worse by the little mother-was-a-brother-fucker, so that a misbegotten great-grandchild could grow up to be a Lannister King.  She has her home; she has plenty of money; she has her pride.  Her code.  Why wait until the wedding she partly underwrote to make her move?  I don't know, and I hope that no one who does cares to tell us, here.  Spoiling on this thread is a small person's idea of entertainment.

[Ariadne]

Hi, I'm a long-time lurker, I'm usually happy to read others speculation and I've been reading everyone's theories and I thought the theory that Olenna poisoned Joffrey made the most sense from what everyone has said and the screen shots people have posted. So today when I had a chance to re-watch I expected I would see this by watching carefully - but I can't see how Olenna had the opportunity to poison Joffrey.

When rewatching, I can see her seeming to pull something from Sansa's necklace and I can see that one of the stones is then missing in the next shot. So I totally buy that Olenna is the poisoner and that Dontos is her conspirator.

However, she can't have poisoned Joffrey's wine. Directly after talking to Sansa she walks past the tables to take her seat - this must have been when she does it. She has no opportunity later. When the cup is placed near her just before Joffrey starts choking, it's still too far for her to reach, at least a metre and a half away. She would have had to get up out of her chair and walk to the bride and grooms table to poison it - which people would have seen, everyone was watching.

The only opportunity she had was earlier, when she walks past the tables. She didn't poison Joffrey's cup - he laters empties it over Tyrion's head. She didn't poison Joffrey and Margaery's decanter - it is never drunk from. The wine which must have poisoned Joffrey came from the decanter directly in front of Queen Cersei.

I think the intended target of the poisoning was (noted alcoholic) the Queen Regent, maybe with bonus dead Tywin (and unfortunate collateral damage dead Tommen). Tyrion and Sansa have their own decanter.

If you watch carefully, the wine that Tyrion pours into Joffrey's cup is from directly in front of Cersei, not the wine decanter at the main table meant for the bride and groom. And when carefully rewatching I think I can see Olenna move her hand over the wine decanter as she walks past it directly after talking to Sansa.

My theory is that Olenna wanted Cersei dead, not Joffrey. Cersei is a major threat to both her grandchildren. She's jealous and bitter of Margaery and very well might do something to her. She is also a major threat to Loras - she's so sure she won't have to marry him, if I were Olenna I'd worry she'd have him killed. Not to mention she didn't want the marriage in the first place, what use is it marrying the heir to Highgarden to a woman possibly too old to have children?

I think the plan was for Sansa and/or Tyrion to take the fall. There could be no suspicion that the Tyrells were involved (though I believe this was Olenna acting by herself) when the Queen Regent and possibly the Hand of the King are poisoned. That's why the whole necklace palaver went on and also why she organised Dontos to get Sansa out of there. With Sansa missing she would be the obvious suspect and it has the bonus of getting Sansa away from King's Landing.

Joffrey of course spoiled all her plans with forcing Tyrion to be his cupbearer, before Cersei or Tywin can drink the wine (I noticed no one drank the wine from the decanter in the mean time) Tyrion grabs the nearest decanter at the time, the one in front of Cersei and fills it. Joffrey takes a small sip from the cup, before cutting open the pie, it musn't immediately take an effect but after tasting the pie he does look a bit funny and mentions it's dry, when he has more of the wine you start to see the full effect happen.

Anyway, that's my theory and I think it makes more sense based on what we see in the episode.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Ariadne's post is interesting. That's a plausible theory if Joffrey was not the intended target. Not sure if I'm in favor or not but it's a solid theory!  With Cersei and Tywin out of the way maybe they thought Margaery the master manipulator could corrall Joffrey into doing their bidding. (Seems a dangerous proposition, but maybe they have a lot of confidence in Margaery's skills). At least long enough for her to produce an heir.

As far as the Tyrells-assassinating-Joffrey theory goes, everyone keeps asking why they wouldn't wait until after the wedding night. Even if Margaery could get pregnant somehow or other, by Joffrey or someone else and pass it off, there's no guaranteeing it would be a male child. A girl would not be an heir to the throne. So they would have to wait 9+months until the baby is born to know whether it was safe. (And even then, the child could always die, etc....) Safer to wed her to Tommen who may be easier to manipulate and is not as dangerous.

[Isazouzi]

Awesome theory, Ariadne! It's true that we seem to have the culprit and maybe the crime weapon if the necklace was indeed some kind of poison, but nothing says that Joffrey was the intended target.

[abelard]

Tyrion actually said, "I'll have to think of another way to thank the King."  Small difference but no "present" mentioned.

Thanks - you're right, that is different (has different overtones/undertones [what is the difference between an overtone and an undertone?]).  

[janjan]

Say what you will about Ramsay, but he doesn't short change the dogs after a long and tiring chase through the forest. - Constantinople

I couldn't help noticing the parallel between the dogs chasing the handmaiden and Summer chasing the deer. It's a test of our Pantheism whether we reacted more strongly to the human victim than to the dead stag.

If the bisected pigeon in the pie stands for Sansa, does Summer's prey stand for Blond Baby Baratheon, Bloody of Face?

[Pallas]

My theory is that Olenna wanted Cersei dead, not Joffrey. Cersei is a major threat to both her grandchildren. She's jealous and bitter of Margaery and very well might do something to her. She is also a major threat to Loras

It's an enormous risk for Olenna to assume, though, simply to eliminate Queen Perimenopause.  I doubt Olenna takes Cersei at her own estimation, or sees her as more dangerous to Olenna's grandchildren than Joffrey.  Knowing Joffrey, would Olenna risk further inflaming his menace by murdering his mother at his wedding? And even if Olenna were determined to have Cersei killed, why murder Cersei in King's Landing, surrounded by the Lannisters in all the trappings of their power?  Why not wait until Cersei were removed to Highgarden, where any manner of accident might be arranged for her? In either event that would still leave Margaery -- and the kingdom as a whole -- ruled by the vicious whims of King Joffrey: as spectacularly unfit a husband as he is a king.  

How do the benefits outweigh the risks?  To me, murdering a troublesome female-in-law seems the kind of rash move that Cersei, not Olenna, might consider -- and even so, decide against.  

Then there's Olenna's little joke.  She commiserates with Sansa on the death of her brother, does not mention her mother, then sighs, "Killing a man at a wedding..."  If Cersei had been Olenna's target, I think both Olenna and her writer would have shaped the jest to fit the crime.