Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[ElizaD]

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

I like it.  At least the show is acknowledging that Dany was raped by Drogo, unlike GRRM. Also nice that she is pointing out the hypocrisy of the so called 'good' guys who rebelled against Aerys and then went about trying to kill children.

What hypocrisy? They rebelled because of Aerys' violation of the feudal contract and nothing changes the fact that they were the victims in that specific situation, that Aerys would have killed Ned and Robert just because his idiot son had vanished with Lyanna and Brandon had made the assumption that Rhaegar being the prince didn't give him the right to abduct and rape a woman without any consequences. Aerys doesn't stop being a murderous tyrant and the greatest threat to the stability of Westeros just because his victims didn't all demonstrate spotless honour; it's like the old book reader argument that there is no difference between Tywin who encourages the Mountain to commit war crimes as a tool of terror and a lord who punishes rapists when they're caught just because the lord can never guarantee 100% that his soldiers won't hurt civilians. Robert and Jon Arryn never had a policy against killing children. Only Ned did, and he followed it consistently, even when it involved speaking out against Robert's plan to have the pregnant Dany killed (which is never going to be acknowledged on the show, I bet, since then Dany wouldn't get to be self-righteous) and led to his death when he wanted to show mercy to Cersei's children. He's gotten nothing but abuse for that decision (even in 7x01 Sansa had to point out that he was stupid), yet now the show wants to have it both ways when Dany implies that he didn't object to child murder often enough. And who are Show Dany's allies now? The killers of Myrcella, whose only crime was being a Lannister. In this scene, she's as much of a hypocrite as she is in the books.

Maybe in the show Dany's speech is indeed the truth and Robert had already tried to have Dany killed before the Dothraki marriage, but in the books I don't think there is any sign that the usurper's killers were anything more than Viserys' delusions, and it is deeply delusional of Dany to treat his word as the truth when she watched her husband kill him. Show Dany has been much more bearable than Book Dany because her "blood of the dragon" speeches have been more about generic conquest instead of broadcasting her ignorance about Targaryen and Westerosi history. This nauseatingly book-style speech just reminds me of why I wanted Book Jon to tell Dany to screw off instead of screwing her. Ned was wasting his time defending this willfully blind conqueror who doesn't give a damn about what he actually did and just wants to hate the usurper's dog for not meekly walking to his death and okaying his sister's presumed rape (only Dany has a right to punish rapists!).

Ugh, this really is bringing back all my old Dany hate that had mellowed after watching Emilia be charming offscreen and play a less ignorant character onscreen. I hope Jon gets at least one speech where he's allowed to be the one who tells her the truth instead of serving as the humble audience to her interpretation of events and people she only knows from stories told to her on another continent. And when Jon's parentage is revealed in season 8, I also hope for (but don't expect) a scene where Dany admits that Ned took a big risk protecting the life of her brother's son when it could have led to Robert killing him and his own children: I doubt she'll care to reexamine her view of Ned and show a tiny bit of respect even when presented with evidence that he sacrificed his honour to protect the nephew who's only alive to screw her and be her second dragonrider because of him.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

What hypocrisy?

The hypocrisy of rebelling against Aerys because he was a murderous tyrant and then condoning the rape and murder of Elia and her babies. Are you saying that if Rhaella, Viserys and Danaerys had remained in Westeros, they would be alive? Robert would have looked the other way and allowed Tywin to brutally murder them as well. Or he would have done it himself. Ned knew that Robert would kill Jon if he knew about him. So Dany and her brother had to flee to Essos - surely she would blame the people who murdered her family for the hardships she suffered?

And in the speech, she is not accusing Ned of not doing enough. She is asking Jon if his father knew about what his best friend did? And that's a valid question is it not? Ned's support won Robert his crown. They were good friends. She wants to know if Ned colluded with Robert in wanting Dany dead.

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

And who are Show Dany's allies now? The killers of Myrcella, whose only crime was being a Lannister. In this scene, she's as much of a hypocrite as she is in the books.

Robert's rebellion was about deposing a murderous tyrant, as you put it, but the rebels themselves then turned into vile, despicable human beings who condoned the rape and murder of innocents. Robert's 15 years of drunken rule has led to  war, death and destruction. People who claim the higher moral ground should not stoop to the level of their opponents.  Dany is conquering Westeros because, according to her, it is her birth right. Not because Cersei murdered a couple of hundred people in KL.

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

Maybe in the show Dany's speech is indeed the truth and Robert had already tried to have Dany killed before the Dothraki marriage, but in the books I don't think there is any sign that the usurper's killers were anything more than Viserys' delusions, and it is deeply delusional of Dany to treat his word as the truth when she watched her husband kill him.

Maybe in the show, Robert send assassins after them. But even if he did not, are  Dany and Viserys not allowed to be paranoid about Robert sending killers after them? After what happened to the rest of her entire family? Her little niece and nephew? 

I like how the fandom allows for Sansa to be as paranoid of Cersei as possible - allowing for secret ninja assassins that Cersei is supposedly sending to murder her or Cersei's army getting North through winter - because Sansa is allowed to be traumatized or be right.

But Dany is never allowed these concessions. She is just being delusional to even think that Robert - the man who wiped out all the Targaryens in Westeros and who tried to have her assassinated when she was pregnant - tried to have her and her brother killed when they were children.

I like that speech. She's ambitious and knows clearly what she wants. She is proud of what she has achieved. She has to be - what she has achieved is monumental.  She talks of the adversities she had to overcome by herself - a middle finger to the folks who are always talking about Dany never suffering or losing anything. And she reminds Jon that Robert was not fully the good guy either.

That speech should tell Jon who Dany is in a nutshell. I don't think he is going to be too fussed about it.

Edited July 22, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

A lot of times, the shows bleeds into what happened in the books for me, Varys is standing right there. The man who essentially spied on her and told Robert that she was pregnant.  is standing right there. 

54 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

And who are Show Dany's allies now? The killers of Myrcella, whose only crime was being a Lannister. In this scene, she's as much of a hypocrite as she is in the books.

The killers of Myrcella, the killers of Trystane who was also their blood. And Olenna had Joffrey poisoned and two innocent people were accused for it.

I wonder, does Tyrion ever find out what Olenna did? 

Edited July 22, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[ElizaD]

23 minutes ago, doram said:

 

Is this some kind of pro-life/ anti-choice argument because I'm not sure what are the fine details that distinguish between sending assassins after a pregnant 13-year-old and her unborn child; and sending assassins after a 7-year-old and his baby sister to make it "deeply delusional" of Dany to assume that a man that can do one is incapable of doing the latter.

Nothing like that at all. I was trying to point at what might be a difference between book and show: book Dany believes in the stories about being chased by killers, but IIRC it's not until she marries Drogo that Robert actually wants her assassinated. Until then, she'd lived in poverty and insecurity, but with no assassins on her trail. So Robert sent killers after a pregnant teen who had been married off to a Dothraki warlord to entice him to attack Westeros, but did nothing in all the years she was a little girl growing up with her brother in Essos. The 'fine details' are that Robert did do the first, but it's indicated that he did not actually do the second and it was only Viserys in his paranoia who believed that. The difference is that in one situation the killer was real and in the other imagined. Robert couldn't be bothered before the Drogo marriage turned Dany into a tangible threat to his throne, which is exactly what Viserys and later Dany herself tried to get out of that marriage. What Dany believes and what Robert actually did are not the same thing. He would have been capable of it, probably, if Dany and Viserys had stayed in KL - but once the kids were out of his sight and not a problem, he didn't care enough to take that step. If Dany had married a random merchant, he would have kept on not caring.

Dany doesn't care to know much about her family. She avoids hearing the bad stuff about Aerys. She believes she is immune to disease as a Targ, hello great spring sickness. She dismisses the story about the princesses locked up in the Maidenvault. That's basic historical knowledge that she missed out on due to only having Viserys around her and does not seek out even after she had to condone his killing by her husband due to his madness. That willful ignorance is extremely unappealing to me, and show Dany has been much better on the whole when it comes to recognizing that her father did have his bad side that wasn't just usurper propaganda.

[TarotQueen]

36 minutes ago, doram said:

It is a fact that Ned looked the other way when her niece and nephew were murdered. He didn't stage a Ned's Rebellion against Robert for child murder. He took the Northern Army, his sister's bones, her baby, and went back to his home. Ned certainly knew enough about Robert to hide Jon's birth from him.

So yeah, that does make Ned a bloody hypocrite. He deposed one murderous tyrant for another. He backed a man who eventually had the blood of children on his hands, and didn't hesitate to order a hit on a pregnant 13-year-old and her unborn child. He found out the full truth of Lyanna's "abduction" - and decided to do nothing. 

Perhaps my memory is flawed, but Ned didn't war against Aerys strictly on principle (I don't think!) he did it because it was his family that was under threat.  Again, this is from memory, but I think the way events are presented in the book is that it was likely Aerys wasn't going to stop with just Ned's brother and father.  Yes, eventually his whole side did what most people fighting wars do, which is to justify themselves on greater principles, but I think Ned also had a straightforward reason that didn't really need to be window dressed too.

My point is that he didn't just commit the North to the rebellion because he objected on principle to the king being a murderous tyrant, he did it because of who he murdered. 

Now I think one thing that is very clear about Ned is that he has a blind spot for other people not necessarily reacting in the same way he would in certain situations.  Like warning Cers to get her kids and take a hike.  I mean, if he had been warned his children were in immediate danger, he would do that, so why wouldn't she too, right? (apologies that I digressed ... just needed an example and that one was simplest).

So he's in this fight for a practical, direct reason anyway, and he thought that the way he would have taken over the Red Keep (mercifully) is the same way that his allies would do it as well.  They didn't, so he was mistaken, and yes, can be faulted for that, but I don't think you've made a case as to how he can be faulted specifically with hypocrisy.  Maybe bad character judgment?

When his allies did act rather drastically in a manner that he did not support, he withdrew from them pretty much entirely for over a decade, and keep in mind, it was Tywin's men who were responsible for the butchery of Rhaegar's family, not Robert's.  You're right in that he didn't fight another war against either of those factions, but I already pointed out in the first paragraph, his initial reason for joining Robert's Rebellion wasn't about the prevention of child murder in the first place, even if did disapprove of it. 

As to what Robert eventually did in going after Dany ... well, when he did it, Ned used all of the power he had to stop Robert from doing so.  Again, not hypocrisy.  Plus, even the most measured and consistent people (of which admittedly Robert was not, but follow me for a sec) do differently from what they said they would once they get into power.  With the agency I have within my society, I'm against torture, so I voted for a candidate that said he would close down a major torture center back in 2008.  He didn't do it after all, but I'd really hate to be accused of being a hypocrite because I had supported him partly for that reason. 

[Raachel2008]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Once Joffrey became king, the rules changed. 

Back then nobody knew  it had changed. People didn't know he wasn't Robert's son. Even now, how many people are trully sure of that?

But I agree, none of that matters. The throne 'belongs' to whoever can keep it, like Robert did. Dany has the army and the dragons, Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander, never mind king of Westeros. We  don't even know if he will ever learn he is a Targaryen, though I'm sure that if and when  that happens either it will spectacular, like burning a lot of stuff out of nowhere, or finding some letter in a quiet scene.

[Oscirus]

Ned was still a hypocrite. If Balon misbehaved, he would've slit Theon's throat without a moments hesitation.  

That being said, Dany should be just as mad at her brother for do something so stupid that it displaced her whole family. I bet she won't though, because god forbid that anybody other than Robert call Rhaegar out on his shit.

Looking at Varys's desired leader that's not something that just describes jon, matter of fact it describes Tyrion to a tee. 

Another thing of interest, I wonder if stopping dany from going after King's landing first and foremost will have ramifications on dany and Tyrion's relationship, since it looks like that probably would've won the war pretty quick.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Oscirus

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Dany's speech to Jon:

Where is this from?

 

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

hope Jon gets at least one speech where he's allowed to be the one who tells her the truth instead of serving as the humble audience to her interpretation of events and people she only knows from stories told to her on another continent. And when Jon's parentage is revealed in season 8, I also hope for (but don't expect) a scene where Dany admits that Ned took a big risk protecting the life of her brother's son when it could have led to Robert killing him and his own children: I doubt she'll care to reexamine her view of Ned and show a tiny bit of respect even when presented with evidence that he sacrificed his honour to protect the nephew who's only alive to screw her and be her second dragonrider because of him.

This will never happen, not because Dany isn't capable of that, but because D&D's mind set is that this would be downplaying Dany's girl!power!

 

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

also hope for (but don't expect) a scene where Dany admits that Ned took a big risk protecting the life of her brother's son when it could have led to Robert killing him and his own children: I doubt she'll care to reexamine her view of Ned and show a tiny bit of respect even when presented with evidence that he sacrificed his honour to protect the nephew who's only alive to screw her and be her second dragonrider because of him.

No happening either, Dany's main priority will be the fact she is not the last Tagaryen and that there is someone else who may claim the throne. We don't know the status of whatever Dany/Jon are going to be, and that may be a big part of that, too.

However, yes, I would love to Jon or anyone else, him or Arya,, to defend the man Ned was, flaws and all.  Actually, what I would like is that other characters were allowed to have the same sort of speech: be allowed to list how crap their lives were while  presenting themselves and their believes. Sansa, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, fuck even Gilly.

I don't mind Dany's speech, this is how she sees it and it is a HUGE step in the GoT universe (books and show) to acknowledge that Dany was raped by Drogo.  But they can't have their cake and eat it, because Dany fell in love with Drogo. It was on screen. But D&D seem to be conveniently 'rewriting' history as long as it suits them, so I'm sure it won't be mentioned. And just to be clear, yes I don't think Dany/Drogo was cute, like many did, but George's bizarre view on love and relationships.

[TarotQueen]

37 minutes ago, doram said:

Well if everyone in a story was aware of the true sequence of events and understood the feelings and motivations of everyone else, that's 80% of the story gone, right? ;)

We, as the audience, have the benefit of unfiltered insight into the events and people's mindsets but Dany doesn't. Her anti-Ned prejudices are based off her own subjectivity in this situation. To all intents and purposes, Ned was in cahoots with the man who annihilated her family. That's an understandable stance and the issue here is the inability to appreciate that. 

Oh of course, I'm not judging Dany, who doesn't know what we know.  I was just trying to dig deeper into your personal characterization of Ned as a hypocrite, but perhaps I misunderstood that.  If you were just defending Dany's reasons for holding that viewpoint, then my bad.

[Spartan Girl]

Not gonna touch the Dany/Drogo stuff. 

As for the episode recap/spoilers: after what they did to Myrcella and Trystane, I don't give a baker's fuck what happens to Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. If Team Dragon has to lose some people, better that it's them.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, doram said:

What I would really like is that before or beyond the whole "So whose claim is bigger here?" argument, that Dany & Jon will actually bond together over being the last of their House and having crappy childhoods. Dany didn't have any and even Jon, while he definitely fared better than Dany & Viserys, he was still brought up as a bastard who - in Uncle Ben's words - was regarded as "older" than children his own age. Also, just because he didn't know that Robert's shadow loomed over his life doesn't  mean it wasn't there. (It was why Ned wanted him sent to the Wall, so even if the truth came out, Jon would still be safe.) 

I'd like them to appreciate that they're kin. React the way normal people would react if after thinking you're whole life that you're the "last of your kind" (and since you're sterile, in every sense of the word),  you suddenly meet someone who's like you. 

Basically, it'd be great to see Dany and Jon bond over dragons. 

Yeah, but normal people might not react well to the fact that their long-lost relation is also the person they just boinked.

But if neither one of them are going that grossed out over it -- Targaryens have been committing incest forever -- then yeah, it would be great if they just were happy to be family.

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Ned was still a hypocrite. If Balon misbehaved, he would've slit Theon's throat without a moments hesitation. 

Would he? How can we say that he definitely would have, it was never put to the test.

If he had to kill Theon because his father was rebelling again, the point of keeping a hostage would already have been void. I'm not convinced that Ned would have decided to go through the motions and kill Theon over that. It's not like that would have ended Balons new rebellion, to the contrary.

Balon had to believe that Ned would do it, and it seems that he either did believe so or he simply wasn't ready to rebel again (believing he would be defeated again, this time for good). And Balon either stopped to believe that Ned would kill the hostage, or simply wouldn't care if Theon got killed, what's the point of killing an innocent hostage?

Moreover, Theon could hold the iron islands after Balon had been killed, and he would be loyal to Starks rather than to people who didn't care if he got killed.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

Would he? How can we say that he definitely would have, it was never put to the test.

If he had to kill Theon because his father was rebelling again, the point of keeping a hostage would already have been void. I'm not convinced that Ned would have decided to go through the motions and kill Theon over that. It's not like that would have ended Balons new rebellion, to the contrary.

Balon had to believe that Ned would do it, and it seems that he either did believe so or he simply wasn't ready to rebel again (believing he would be defeated again, this time for good). And Balon either stopped to believe that Ned would kill the hostage, or simply wouldn't care if Theon got killed, what's the point of killing an innocent hostage?

Moreover, Theon could hold the iron islands after Balon had been killed, and he would be loyal to Starks rather than to people who didn't care if he got killed.

GRRM addressed this, as I recall, and said that Ned would have done it.  He promised to.  If you take hostages and then don't follow through when the other side breaks their word, you're just showing yourself to be unwilling to be weak.  It preserves your ability to take hostages in the future.

We see this with Daenerys in the books, when she takes child hostages in Meereen but confides to the Green Grace that she can't imagine harming them, and when the Harpy attacks start up again (hmm, almost like they know she won't do anything!) she doesn't.  It contributes to the breakdown of law and order in Meereen.

It's not really the same situation with the Targaryen children, in any event.  They weren't taken as hostages for future conduct.

[Wouter]

30 minutes ago, SeanC said:

GRRM addressed this, as I recall, and said that Ned would have done it.  He promised to.  If you take hostages and then don't follow through when the other side breaks their word, you're just showing yourself to be unwilling to be weak.  It preserves your ability to take hostages in the future.

 

Well, if GRRM said so then OK. I missed or don't remember that specific interview (he has given a ton, over the years).

I don't know if it would really matter to show you are unwilling to kill hostages, after your bluff has been called already. It would only matter if you would take a hostage again, but why bother if the previous hostagetaking failed to serve the goal it should have served. Executing Balon, along with the others in command (his brother, loyal bannermen rebelling with him, etc) would counteract the apparent show of weakness. 

I guess Ned could see it as his duty to Robert, though, and Robert would probably demand that the hostage be killed.

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I don't know if it would really matter to show you are unwilling to kill hostages, after your bluff has been called already. It would only matter if you would take a hostage again, but why bother if the previous hostagetaking failed to serve the goal it should have served. Executing Balon, along with the others in command (his brother, loyal bannermen rebelling with him, etc) would counteract the apparent show of weakness. 

Because hostage-taking has been a feature of Westerosi politics for centuries.  Sometimes people will try to call your bluff or otherwise just don't care; you have to act decisively in that situation in order to preserve the usefulness of the tool the rest of the time.

And it goes beyond hostage-taking.  When you draw a red line and say there will be a certain consequence if the other person crosses it, and then you don't do the thing you said you would do, it calls into question your word in every other context where a threat or promise is made.

Edited July 22, 2017 by SeanC

[magdalene]

Are these spoilers real?

Well, I wanted Arya to turn North so that part would please me.  And since I loathe the Dorne characters I hope Euron kills some of them.

Not looking forward to the puss filled Jorah surgery.

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Are these spoilers real?

Well, I wanted Arya to turn North so that part would please me.  And since I loathe the Dorne characters I hope Euron kills some of them.

Not looking forward to the puss filled Jorah surgery.

I would not suggest eclairs or cream puffs watching the episode.

[Edith]

Episode 6 by Friki

Wight hunt is exactly as lads said. There's really a raven from Gendry (who is send by Jon) to Dany in the same episode asking for her help. Unbelievable...

Jon and Beric conversation about dying/lord of light , gendry not happy with BWB, hound/tormund about Brienne. 

They find the wight following the Hound's vision 

Arya is going to show Sansa the letter and ask for an explanation. She's also going to ask about what Sansa thinks of Jon and Cersei. 

Sansa is going to investigate Arya. According to Friki she's going to find Arya's faces, poison, etc. 

Only Dragonstone, Winterfell and wight hund.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Edith

[Hecate7]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:48 AM, GrailKing said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/kit-harington-sophie-turner-isaac-h-wright-possible-season-7-stark-reunion-writers-tease-game-thrones-end-game/#more-144684

 

I looked closely but I can't see any Stark emblems on Sansa's dress like she has had whether hidden or flaunted, just the flayed man motif. 

there's nothing that I could see, either. I saw the Bolton sigil in the pattern of her dress, but that makes sense because she is Lady Bolton now that Roose and his lady are dead and Ramsey is dead. There's no one else, and so she's inherited the Dreadfort just as Cersei has the Red Keep.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Hecate7 said:

there's nothing that I could see, either. I saw the Bolton sigil in the pattern of her dress, but that makes sense because she is Lady Bolton now that Roose and his lady are dead and Ramsey is dead. There's no one else, and so she's inherited the Dreadfort just as Cersei has the Red Keep.

 I found it hidden she has wolves, also accordint to MC she has tully stuff also ( which I can't see yet) in her outfits

[SimoneS]

I still am not convinced that this wight hunt is necessary. It feels like it is just a plot device to take away Viserion from Daenerys. After all, Daenerys could take Drogon and go spy on the Night King's army. And the idea that the Lannisters would send their soldiers seems proposterous.

I think that Jon and Daenerys will likely be in love with each other by the time their biological relationship is revealed. They might be shocked by their biological relationship, but will find a way to move past it. It is possible that they keep it a secret from Westeros until they figure out what they want to do next.

Edited July 23, 2017 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

Frikidoctor translated-7-06

 

Frikidoctor's Episode 6 Spoilers- Translations (self.freefolk)

submitted 35 minutes ago * by quinn_heart

Native Spanish speaker, my slang knowledge is iffy but he doesn't use it in any significant way this episode. The only confusion I have is the sequence of events, for example he tells us of the expedition beyond the wall first, then Winterfell, and finally tells us about Dragonstone.

In some of these translations I'll add that I think he's speculating. The reason I believe something is speculating is when he says things like "could" and "would" Winterfell-

Littlefinger capitalizes on Jon's departure, trying to influence Sansa.

Arya confronts Sansa with the contents of the letter she sent in Season 1, calling her father a traitor. Sansa defends herself, saying she had to do it to survive.

Sansa wonders what her sister has done all this time, and investigates. FD says Sansa "would be" horrified while looking at Arya's bag of faces, so this part is speculating or phrasing it as speculation. The words on the screen during this say. "Sansa also wants to know things about Arya, and Arya has gruesome things in her bag." So it sounds like he's connecting those dots.

He mentions Sansa being summoned to the dragon pit and sending Brienne to represent her, so Sansa can stay in the north. I'm not sure if he meant this happens during episode 6 though.

Trip Beyond The Wall-

This is how the episode opens. The group (Jon, Gendry, Jorah, Tormound, Sandor, Beric, Thoros +"3 explorers") is walking in the snow. Gendry seems isolated. There's "interesting" interactions between the characters.

Jon offers Jorah his sword, Jorah doesn't feel worthy, and Jon keeps the sword.

The group just walks forward, looking for the mountain in the shape of an arrowhead from Sandor's vision.

The weather is hostile, and they're having a hard time seeing. They hear a roar and suddenly the wight polar bear pops out, and traps Thoros. Thoros fights back, and the group (except Sandor) tries to slay the polar bear. Beric summons his flames, which scare the hound. They kill the bear; Thoros is wounded.

They run into a white walker and an army of wights, similar to one Jon has fought before. The group runs, slightly separating. Jon sends Gendry back to Eastwatch, to send a raven to Daenerys.

When Daenerys gets the letter (not sure when exactly in the episode this happens, but happens at some point before Daenerys gets to the north) she immediately leaves, but Tyrion tells her that she's their last hope and if she dies everything is over. She leaves anyway, and this is the scene in the trailers where Tyrion looks at the dragons broodingly.

Back to beyond the wall, the group gets to the frozen lake. The ice cracks, and they're left floating on a piece of ice. This is the scene in which the group is a circle with their swords out in the trailer.

They wait on the "island" for hours. It becomes nighttime. Thoros dies. Beric uses his sword to burn Thoros's body. He also speculates ("could") or phrases as speculation that Beric could try to heal Thoros's injuries with his flaming sword (before he dies of course)

The water around their piece of ice ends up freezing, so the wight army can now continue to chase them. They run but end up fighting. Just as they're getting overwhelmed, Daenerys and her dragons arrive. She burns wights, Viscerion's neck gets ice speared by the night king and sinks into the lake. She escapes with the group except Jon, who falls from drogon into the lake.

Jon gets out of the lake, and wights come after him. His uncle benjen saves him. Jon takes his horse and rides for eastwatch. Benjen is swarmed by wights.

Jon gets to eastwatch, and Daenerys is traumatized, saying this is like her son dying. They get on a boat. She promises to defeat the Night King. This part goes like the leaked script, Jon says thank you "Dany", she's remembering her brother calling her that. Jon says he'd bend the knee but he can't because of injuries from the wight battle. Daenerys asks what about those who pledged allegiance to you.

The Night King's wights pull Viscerion from the lake using chains. Night King does his hand thing, Viscerion wakes up.

That's basically it. If you guys have any questions I'll do my best, but I tried to put all relevant information so if there's a seemingly missing step in a scene, it's probably just a lack of elaboration there and I didn't wanna fill in holes with any of my own info/deductions. Not sure if any of the info here is new but I didn't see any translation yet so here I stand. Also first time posting at freefolk![\spoiler]

Edited July 23, 2017 by GrailKing
wrong episode

[SimoneS]

So Daenerys saves them by having them ride Drogon and Rhaegal? It is hard to believe that the dragons would tolerate strangers on their backs.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So Daenerys saves them by having them ride Drogon and Rhaegal? It is hard to believe that the dragons would tolerate strangers on their backs.

Well she is with them, and it's mentioned that they are intelligent.

Freefolk joking on Jon falling off, but I remember something about him trying to hold on and I think exhausted.

I also wonder will Sansa confront Arya with what she finds?

Maybe Arya won't think what Sansa had to do was bad after all.

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So Daenerys saves them by having them ride Drogon and Rhaegal? It is hard to believe that the dragons would tolerate strangers on their backs.

It's canonical that dragonriders have been able to take passengers (e.g., Visenya and Ronnel Arryn, Aemond and Alys Rivers).

[anamika]

It all sounds exciting, but travel in Westeros sure has become real fast. Gendry goes back to Eastwatch, sends a raven, raven flies all the way to Dragonstone, Dany gets it, has a discussion with Tyrion and then travels to the wall on her dragons in a matter of hours. If this is true, everyone should be communicating on a daily basis - Sam and Jon should just raven ping each other every day with news about his latest discoveries from Old Town.

Dany should also teach her dragons some good dodging techniques and defensive manoeuvres as they seem to be getting taken down with spears and such rather easily. How does one train a dragon?

Edited July 23, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

Smart my ass. Didn't Rhaenyra's son die trying to ride her dragon?

 

Since it's checkov's gun, it sounds like  Cersei could possibly kill  the green dragon next season. If not, why include a scene of her talking about how to kill a dragon?

Edited July 23, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

It all sounds exciting, but travel in Westeros sure has become real fast. Gendry goes back to Eastwatch, sends a raven, raven flies all the way to Dragonstone, Dany gets it, has a discussion with Tyrion and then travels to the wall on her dragons in a matter of hours. If this is true, everyone should be communicating on a daily basis - Sam and Jon should just raven ping each other every day with news about his latest discoveries from Old Town.

Dany should also train her dragons and teach them some good dodging techniques and defensive manoeuvres as they seem to be getting taken down with spears and such rather easily.

I'm sure book wise they be spending days or weeks hiding from them, I don't how they do time extension in the shorten show.

Does she even know any, as of yet I don't see a saddle.

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Smart my ass. Didn't Rhaenyra's son die trying to ride her dragon?

Because he tried to do it solo, and already had a dragon of his own who was still alive.

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Does she even know any, as of yet I don't see a saddle.

That's disappointing. Tyrion's first order of business should have been to make her a saddle.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

That's disappointing. Tyrion's first order of business should have been to make her a saddle.

I thought that be a hanging gun there with Tyrions saddle for Bran.

[Oscirus]

To be fair, being Dany's hand is a full time job.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

To be fair, being Dany's hand is a full time job.

With all that time coming from muareen, he ( writers ) had no time to come up with a design?

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

With all that time coming from muareen, he ( writers ) had no time to come up with a design?

Probably plotting her conquest.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Probably plotting her conquest.

A bit of cart b4 the horse I say.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

A bit of cart b4 the horse I say.

Not really, she rides her dragon just fine. This is literally Tyrion's second war (third if you count the time he slept during the five kings war), he probably needs all the preparation time possible. 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Not really, she rides her dragon just fine. This is literally Tyrion's second war (third if you count the time he slept during the five kings war), he probably needs all the preparation time possible. 

In war, she ain't gliding, or sweeping slow turns, they were needed by her ancestors, I think she need more than griping strength. 

G-forces, wind, fatigue etc.

If we're being realistic.

May not be top gun, but she ain't riding a horse on land either.

[FnkyChkn34]

On 7/21/2017 at 7:53 PM, SimoneS said:

 

I wonder if the North will reject Jon as their king when they discover that he is a  Targaryen. It seems overkill, but maybe this unrest will lead Jon to leave the North to be with Daenerys in King's Landing, while Sansa becomes Queen of the North.

He's still half Stark. Can't that count for something?

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

He's still half Stark. Can't that count for something?

Possible: assuming proof is shown or:

Needs to be legitimized : Danny if she wins, Bran if he decides he doesn't want to be Lord, Sansa possibly, he saves them again and they just reaffirm their choice, Howland effin Reed or they keep it secret until his death and legitimized post death.

Namely what ever the hell GRRM says.

[Raachel2008]

11 hours ago, doram said:

Dany/Drogo was always pretty straight-forward to me. She had to "fall in love" with him or she'd have gone mad. She had to find a way of establishing some agency in an impossible situation or she'd have killed herself. I distinctly remember a passage in the books where Dany was contemplating suicide if she got ass-raped by him one more night. By learning how to have some dominance/agency in their relationship, she became something more than a unique tits-and-ass trophy for him and he began to care for her, probably because Drogo hadn't had much experience bedding women he wasn't raping as they cried into the pillow and he realized that - GASP! - an enthusiastic partner actually makes sex better. Drogo grew protective over her and Dany, who had grown up under the tender loving care of Viserys, "fell in love" with him. 

See, I totally 1345% agree with you, but that was not on screen. 

 

11 hours ago, doram said:

I'd like them to appreciate that they're kin. React the way normal people would react if after thinking you're whole life that you're the "last of your kind" (and since you're sterile, in every sense of the word),  you suddenly meet someone who's like you. 

Normal people don't bang their aunt/nephew, LOL.

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I still am not convinced that this wight hunt is necessary. It feels like it is just a plot device to take away Viserion from Daenerys. After all, Daenerys could take Drogon and go spy on the Night King's army. And the idea that the Lannisters would send their soldiers seems proposterous.

But the wight hunt is not for Dany, neither the goal is to spy to the WWs. The wight hunt is about taking one of them to Cersei, so she will believe these creatures are real. And I don't think the idea that the Lannisters would send their soldiers seems proposterous. Per spoilers, we know that Jamie is all for it and appalled when Cersei betrays Dany and Jon. And we know Tyrion is all for it, so when you say Lannisters you mean Cersei, and I'll mantain that she is fucking stupid by not joining forces.

I wasn't surprised at all about the spoilers about Viserion dying. I've always thought that they would 'kill' one of dragons to make the whole thing a bit more balanced - with three dragons, Danaerys is almost invencible.

Travelling in Westeros is better than my 2017 commute for work. I must be stupid or too tired after work, but I'm not really sure why Jon asks for Dany and why she goes. 

The best part of those spoilers for me is the Sansa X Arya part. I'm looking forward to Sansa finding Arya's faces. As viewers, we so are used to that, but in reality it is a horrendous thing. Sounds like good stuff.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Raachel2008

[SimoneS]

By Lannisters, I meant Cersei primarily, but Jaime also and obviously not Tyrion. Tyrion knows Cersei, he knows her irrational hate and stupid. He should have immediately told Jon that he was risking lives for nothing and that they should formulate a plan to either destroy the rest of the Lannister army or to maneuver around them in preparation for the Night King. 

I know they are going for tension first between Sansa and Arya which actually makes sense because their relationship on the show has always had problems, but I hope that the show lets them have a conversation where they reestablish their bond as siblings after.

[ElizaD]

The logic of the wight expedition sounds dodgy, but I have high hopes for wight Viserion. IIRC, the showrunners have mentioned that there are three "holy shit" moments that GRRM told them about: Shireen's burning, hold the door, and an unknown third. I'd be happy if that referred to Viserion's reanimation: it would wreck the majority of the current "three heads of the dragon" theories and probably lead to a dragon vs. dragon battle in season 8 that could be epic if HBO gives them the time and money to start working on the CGI as soon as possible. For that reason, I've wondered if they might film some of the more CGI-heavy battles pretty early.

So 7x05 has the annulment scene. I can't wait to see how it plays out and how the fandom reacts.

[TarotQueen]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

How does one train a dragon?

Kit should know.

[TarotQueen]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

The water around their piece of ice ends up freezing, so the wight army can now continue to chase them. They run but end up fighting. Just as they're getting overwhelmed, Daenerys and her dragons arrive. She burns wights, Viscerion's neck gets ice speared by the night king and sinks into the lake. She escapes with the group except Jon, who falls from drogon into the lake.

Jon gets out of the lake, and wights come after him. His uncle benjen saves him. Jon takes his horse and rides for eastwatch. Benjen is swarmed by wights.

Jon gets to eastwatch, and Daenerys is traumatized, saying this is like her son dying. They get on a boat. She promises to defeat the Night King. This part goes like the leaked script, Jon says thank you "Dany", she's remembering her brother calling her that. Jon says he'd bend the knee but he can't because of injuries from the wight battle. Daenerys asks what about those who pledged allegiance to you.

I think I've read these spoilers before ... but what they don't say is whether the wight hunt is even successful or not.  I assume it is because of future spoilers of them showing it to Cersei, but then, if so, where is the wight during these escapes?  Who has it and where do they put it?  There's a logistical mystery here to me ... With so many people having to get on the dragon the first time, how will they all be able to secure both themselves and the wight safely?  Or does the wight get transported with Jon and Dany later?  Might make the boat sex spoiler kind of awkward, right?  Is there a UPS or a FedEx store somewhere north of the wall?

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

I think I've read these spoilers before ... but what they don't say is whether the wight hunt is even successful or not.  I assume it is because of future spoilers of them showing it to Cersei, but then, if so, where is the wight during these escapes?  Who has it and where do they put it?  There's a logistical mystery here to me ... With so many people having to get on the dragon the first time, how will they all be able to secure both themselves and the wight safely?  Or does the wight get transported with Jon and Dany later?  Might make the boat sex spoiler kind of awkward, right?  Is there a UPS or a FedEx store somewhere north of the wall?

It's stated, they capture it, at the dragon pit I think it attacks Cersei or someone, Sandor kills it, but the hand keeps going.

Cersei feigns agreeing to send troops, and Jamie leaves.

I Think !

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

Kit should know.

Is this a play on a movie?, how to train your dragon?

Never saw it, so asking.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

The logic of the wight expedition sounds dodgy, but I have high hopes for wight Viserion. IIRC, the showrunners have mentioned that there are three "holy shit" moments that GRRM told them about: Shireen's burning, hold the door, and an unknown third. I'd be happy if that referred to Viserion's reanimation: it would wreck the majority of the current "three heads of the dragon" theories and probably lead to a dragon vs. dragon battle in season 8 that could be epic if HBO gives them the time and money to start working on the CGI as soon as possible. For that reason, I've wondered if they might film some of the more CGI-heavy battles pretty early.

So 7x05 has the annulment scene. I can't wait to see how it plays out and how the fandom reacts.

I'll be happy to never hear about the three heads of the dragon for as long as I live, same as Azor Ahai. I know the three heads of the dragon must have been included in one of the prophecies, but I always felt like it's the Targaryen version of the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. 

As far as the annulment scene goes. I've been wondering for a while that if there was an annulment that this might be the reason Aerys essentially took Elia and the children hostage instead of letting them go to Dragonstone with Viserys and Rhaella like common sense dictated. 

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

The logic of the wight expedition sounds dodgy, but I have high hopes for wight Viserion. IIRC, the showrunners have mentioned that there are three "holy shit" moments that GRRM told them about: Shireen's burning, hold the door, and an unknown third. I'd be happy if that referred to Viserion's reanimation: it would wreck the majority of the current "three heads of the dragon" theories and probably lead to a dragon vs. dragon battle in season 8 that could be epic if HBO gives them the time and money to start working on the CGI as soon as possible. For that reason, I've wondered if they might film some of the more CGI-heavy battles pretty early.

So 7x05 has the annulment scene. I can't wait to see how it plays out and how the fandom reacts.

I'll be happy to never hear about the three heads of the dragon for as long as I live, same as Azor Ahai. I know the three heads of the dragon must have been included in one of the prophecies, but I always felt like it's the Targaryen version of the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. 

As far as the annulment scene goes. I've been wondering for a while that if there was an annulment that this might be the reason Aerys essentially took Elia and the children hostage instead of letting them go to Dragonstone with Viserys and Rhaella like common sense dictated. 

[TarotQueen]

38 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Is this a play on a movie?, how to train your dragon?

Never saw it, so asking.

Yeah.  Anamika opened the door, I just stepped on through it. 

Kit's voice was in the sequel though, not the original, so the joke is slightly imperfect. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Yeah.  Anamika opened the door, I just stepped on through it. 

Kit's voice was in the sequel though, not the original, so the joke is slightly imperfect. 

Thank you.