Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Cersei and Euron are the only people left to convince, and they're the two least likely to help out, as someone like Tyrion, Sansa, Yara and Theon should have deduced at this point considering their interactions with them. Jon kneeling for Dany also solidifies that they have no intention of letting Cersei stay on the Iron Throne once all is said and done, which just gives her even more incentive to stay away. Either she helps them, loses most of her men in the process and is then either executed or exiled if they win, or she sits back, lets them lose most of their sources and hopes for victory. Cersei's plan is long-sighted and completely in-line with her character. 

As for Jon, even ignoring that he's naive enough to believe she'll care about the WW, does he have zero consideration for the fact that Cersei recently blew up the Holy Sept containing most of the highborn Southerners, including her own uncle, that she loathes House Stark and wants them all dead, and that it's not out of character for her to stage an ambush once all her enemies are gathered in one place (it actually makes zero sense from a logical standpoint that she doesn't just off them since the spoilers indicate they arrive without armies and dragons)? Or that the NK has the ability to control his wights beyond the Wall as shown is season one and could have just let the captured wight drop dead? Or that it'd be smart to send a couple of hundred men instead of just half a dozen considering the nature of the mission? Or that, as admirable as Jon's desire to lead in battle is, it's not a good idea for him to do every single thing by himself when his people are counting on him to lead them and his death means they'll be ruled by Sansa, who's more worried about Cersei than the NK? 

Jon's actions might be admirable, but they're not smart. I swear, if he'd been in Ned's place in season one, he'd probably have gone after the Mountain himself instead of sending Beric, nevermind the long-term ramifications his actions would have for others. 

We should not assume as confirmed some stuff:

- We don't know if Cercei and Euron are the only ones left to convince. Or than most of southener lords died last season. In fact we don't know if all the lords in KL died in the Sept.

-The same with the kneeling. We do not know if Jon kneels once or twice or if he even kneels.

-Jon is not naive trying to convince Cercei. There is not other option than to try to convince everyone. To put it in perspective: even if everyone decide to unite and work together right now to stop the NK, the chances to success are very low.

-We have not confirmation of Jon team and Dany team preparations before the Dragonpit meeting in the Dragonpit area.

-We actually don't know how exactly WW and Wight magic works. We have separates events to help us to imagine how it works, but they don't provide us with a clear answer. Do the wights need a WW near to wake up? To move? To stop moving? How far and poweful the NK control go? How does the Wall magic works? How does the dragon magic work? How all those magic interact with each other?

-It's possible that to send more men means more chances for the NK to find them quickly.

[SeanC]

Gwendoline Christie did an interview for Newsweek (a publication that still exists, apparently).  Among other things, she mentions:

Quote

“ Game of Thrones is famous for different characters coming together with unlikely consequences. And what’s recurrent in Brienne’s life is forming relationships with people that start with an opposing force, then a begrudging mutual respect and, out of that, a deep respect and pure love. That happens again this season. Brienne will realize a deep alliance.”

Lads was pretty scattered on what Brienne was up to, so I'm not sure what this could refer to.

[Raachel2008]

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Lads was pretty scattered on what Brienne was up to, so I'm not sure what this could refer to.

Lovely interview, thanks for sharing. Maybe GC is talking about different feelings for different people. We know she meet the Hound: begrudging mutual respect. It is very easy to see Brienne loving Arya, Lyanna (who I understood is around quite a bit), two young girls who, like herself, are not normcore. She already worships the ground Sansa walks on, and while last season it didn't look like Brienne cared that much about Jon or Davos, I won't be surprised at all if it turns out that she respect them deeply - I actuallu would love to see Davos and Brienne just bonding. Maybe she goes South too, and meet Dany? I can't remeber if Brienne and Tyrion have ever been on screen together, have they?

[whateverdgaf]

46 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Lovely interview, thanks for sharing. Maybe GC is talking about different feelings for different people. We know she meet the Hound: begrudging mutual respect. It is very easy to see Brienne loving Arya, Lyanna (who I understood is around quite a bit), two young girls who, like herself, are not normcore. She already worships the ground Sansa walks on, and while last season it didn't look like Brienne cared that much about Jon or Davos, I won't be surprised at all if it turns out that she respect them deeply - I actuallu would love to see Davos and Brienne just bonding. Maybe she goes South too, and meet Dany? I can't remeber if Brienne and Tyrion have ever been on screen together, have they?

I can imagine her forming a friendship or alliance of sorts with Davos or the Hound, in reference to the consistent theme. I think the realising the deep alliance is in reference to Jaime, and that she will play a part in trying to reconcile the Lannisters and the Starks. Or it might be Pod. That clip of the two sparring is making me worry that they're really going to play up the relationship between the two, and then kill Pod off, to Brienne's heartbreak. 

[Advance35]

Quote

As for Jon, even ignoring that he's naive enough to believe she'll care about the WW, does he have zero consideration for the fact that Cersei recently blew up the Holy Sept containing most of the highborn Southerners, including her own uncle, that she loathes House Stark and wants them all dead, and that it's not out of character for her to stage an ambush once all her enemies are gathered in one place (it actually makes zero sense from a logical standpoint that she doesn't just off them since the spoilers indicate they arrive without armies and dragons)? Or that the NK has the ability to control his wights beyond the Wall as shown is season one and could have just let the captured wight drop dead? Or that it'd be smart to send a couple of hundred men instead of just half a dozen considering the nature of the mission? Or that, as admirable as Jon's desire to lead in battle is, it's not a good idea for him to do every single thing by himself when his people are counting on him to lead them and his death means they'll be ruled by Sansa, who's more worried about Cersei than the NK? 

THIS.  Cersei will kill everyone (or die trying) before she'll allow herself to be dethroned.  Jon can plan battles but he's Robb Stark when it comes to understanding the darker human natures.  He thinks he can appeal to Cersei with the "fate of the world", if Cersei's not on top of it, she'd rather there not be a world.  She rules or the Night King can.  I think that's very in keeping with her character and I'm glad at least Sansa recognizes that.   Jon was under the delusion that Rickon was coming out of the Battle for Winterfell alive, despite the fact that Sansa tried to warn him about it.   And while the Otherpocalypse is the biggest threat, having Cersei at his back is a fools mistake.  He clearly hasn't learned.

Dany is operating just like Cersei by the way.   She is not lifting a finger to help Jon until he bends the knee and surrenders the North to her.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I can't remeber if Brienne and Tyrion have ever been on screen together, have they?

They were in the same wide shots at the wedding a few times, but no, they've never interacted.

[Advance35]

Nothing to do with Sansa in my view.  I would expect her to have a better idea of Cersei considering how much time she's spent in Kings Landing but Jon seems to continue to make  the same mistake again and again.  He blindly and blithely brought the Free Folk across the wall without a care to the feuds and grudges that would be waiting.  Some of which was directed at him via Olly or whatever his name was.  He's good at battle strategy, but that's about it.  It's probably a good thing he won't sit the Iron Throne.  He just doesn't have the head for it.  Dany (with help from Tyrion and Varys) will clearly be the brains of the outfit.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

And while the Otherpocalypse is the biggest threat, having Cersei at his back is a fools mistake.  He clearly hasn't learned.

I think he is aware of Cercei personality. And that does not change what he must do. Even if there is 1% (or less) chance of Cercei helping, he must try. Any other option means NK success.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Nothing to do with Sansa in my view.  I would expect her to have a better idea of Cersei considering how much time she's spent in Kings Landing but Jon seems to continue to make  the same mistake again and again.  He blindly and blithely brought the Free Folk across the wall without a care to the feuds and grudges that would be waiting.  Some of which was directed at him via Olly or whatever his name was.  He's good at battle strategy, but that's about it.  It's probably a good thing he won't sit the Iron Throne.  He just doesn't have the head for it.  Dany (with help from Tyrion and Varys) will clearly be the brains of the outfit.

What is this better idea of Cersei that Sansa supposedly has from spending those seasons imprisoned by her? That even Tyrion, who grew up with her, does not have considering that Tyrion is part of the gang that tries to convince Cersei of the bigger threat?

If we are comparing Sansa and Jon, let's see how they perform. Sansa married into the Boltons, thinking to get the upper hand. Had to get brutally raped before realizing that she was an idiot. Thinks that the Karstarks will help the Starks and Davos has to explain to her why this is not possible. Thinks the North will support her because she has the Stark name - was wrong. Demands that Lord Glover help them - gets rebuffed. Keeps giving Jon shit for trusting in Davos - despite Davos being a damn good adviser. Keeps yelling at Jon to fight with more men and hides information about the Vale army. She thought the North would make her QITN. She has no understanding of the North, cannot read people and does not understand people.

She scolds Jon for not understanding Ramsay - well neither did she until she got married to him. I am sure Jon understands Tormund and Davos better than Sansa because Jon has actually spend time with them.  And despite Sansa acting as the Ramsay expert, the only piece of advice she could give Jon about him was - don't do what he wants you to do. Like, how in the world is that helpful, strategic advice?

And even though the show has removed 80% of Jon's political achievements in the books, let's look at what little they have kept in shall we? He advised Stannis on the different Northern houses, convinced Stannis to lend him ships, resolved a thousand year feud between the Wildlings and the North, saved thousands of wildlings, defended and held the wall till Stannis got there, convinced the Wildlings to fight for his cause, is ready to listen to and take advice from wiser men like Aemon and Davos and was elected both LC and KITN. And as Doram pointed out, he was willing to negotiate with his enemies (The Boltons), killed Half-hand to infiltrate the Wildlings and swiftly ended rebellion - Janos Slynt, Craster's keep and his assassins.

After looking at the above, why in the world would Jon listen to Sansa?

As for Cersei, as far as we know, Sansa basically warns Jon to not ignore Cersei after she sends them a 'bend the knee or be destroyed' message. And Jon tells her that with winter there it would be hard for Cersei's army to get North (basically mirrored by Jaime down south). This sounds reasonable. As for 'don't trust Cersei' ... I mean who in their right mind would trust Cersei? I am sure no one does, but the gang approaching her in the end seems to be a last-ditch effort to get an united front against the WW. And Cersei's plans to sit it out seems rather stupid. There's really nothing she can do at that point.

And then finally let's come to LF. Why is LF still hanging around in WF? Why can't master player Sansa make a case to execute him for his siding with the Lannisters against the Starks? I mean, she seems to be very gung-ho about wanting to punish the children of the traitors who went against the Starks. Why not punish LF as well? Especially since she seemed to blame him for what the Boltons did to her in season 6. She knows what he wants, how he manipulates people. The Vale has already aligned with the Starks. LF has no power or influence anymore. Take him down Sansa! Immediately.

So, no. Sansa is definitely not the brains of the outfit either.

Edited July 12, 2017 by anamika

[anamika]

5 hours ago, doram said:

This is how I know the show has lost the plot of these stories, in an effort to dumb down Jon to prop Sansa.  Jon killed his mentor, then he chopped off the head of a man who was crying for mercy because it was expedient. (His thought processes before he executes Whathisname are downright chilling).

Meanwhile, Sansa married into the family that murdered her brother and slit her mother's throat because Petyr made her think she'd get the upper hand. 

But yeah, it's Sansa that is the world-wise, hard-eyed realist while Jon is the babe-in-the-woods. 

One of the reasons I am not looking forward to this Jon Vs Sansa feud on the show, is this narrative that is getting constantly pushed that Jon is dumb and Sansa is smart - the showrunners have never come out and said that Jon is politically naive or dumb - This is David and Dan's take on Jon:

Quote

Jon’s honorable nature has proven a disadvantage in some regards: a man who plays by the rules will have a harder time defeating men and women who don’t. But Jon’s nature also provides one of his great strengths: his ability to win others to his cause. Men who respected his courage and honesty elected him Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. The Free Folk, who had never before aligned themselves with kneelers, chose to fight for Jon Snow because they believed in him. The lords of the north named him King in the North because they realized he was their last, best chance to survive the wars to come.

Nowhere have they said that he is politically unfit to rule or make good decisions. They praise Sansa as being politically smart etc, but that does not automatically make Jon politically less smart.

And this season, they are sending Jon and Davos to go talk with Dany, Tyrion, Cersei etc. Not Sansa - the supposed political genius.

But still the narrative continues to be that Jon is dumb and Sansa is smart.  From where are people getting this?  Just because Jon made one mistake in the Battle of the Bastards, we should ignore all his other achievements? What about all the dumb decisions that Sansa has made thus far- they don't count? 

This is why I am also nervous about Arya getting stuck with Sansa next season. She's going to get hit with the 'Arya is dumb' stick next. Book Arya should be able to see right through Littlefinger's machinations.

Though, I am looking forward to some Arya scenes.  I do think that this

Quote

And what’s recurrent in Brienne’s life is forming relationships with people that start with an opposing force, then a begrudging mutual respect and, out of that, a deep respect and pure love. That happens again this season. Brienne will realize a deep alliance.”

is with Arya. They seem to be having a fun sparring session according to spoilers. Maybe initially Arya and Brienne don't get along because Arya and Sansa clash. And then Brienne comes to respect her and form an alliance. I can't think of anyone else in the North and Brienne seems to be only going south in the very last episode.

Edited July 12, 2017 by anamika

[Gwen-Stacys]

"Sansa basically warns Jon to not ignore Cersei after she sends them a 'bend the knee or be destroyed' message. And Jon tells her that with winter there it would be hard for Cersei's army to get North (basically mirrored by Jaime down south). This sounds reasonable." Not just Jamie, but Cersei herself says this to Joffrey back in season 1. So...I don't get her threat here. It's not like she could supplant Jon and put someone else in his place /should/ her army make it north. And her plan to sit back and let the WWs kill everyone else isn't long sighted, it's short sighted and dumb. If the dead join the dead, then Dani, Jon, everyone else dying would only mean a bigger problem for her in the future.

[Hana Chan]

I don't think that Jon needs Sansa's oh so astute political expertise to know that 99% of people can be untrustworthy fucks and not to let himself be swayed. He was murdered by some of his own men, something that I'm sure that Sansa is totally unaware of. He learned from his predecessor that sometimes you have to hold your nose and do what you'd rather not for the greater good (like tolerating Craster). Jon also learned that when you have to, to reach out to your enemies (again, for the greater good) and he's had a number of great successes. He managed to keep his cover with the Wildings for an extended period, and then managed to gain their allegiance after engaging in a brutal battle with them. He's normally more straightforward, but he can be sneaky when he needs to be. And unlike pretty much anyone else who's into getting power for their own betterment (including Dany), Jon has come to see it as nothing more than a means to rally everyone south of the Wall for the real war rapidly approaching.

Sansa has one thing on Jon in that she can be a lot more manipulative. I'm still perplexed by some of her behavior since their reunion, in that she rode him pretty hard about not just liberating their ancestral home, but saving their youngest brother. She knew that Rikon was being held by Ramsey and that he was more than likely dead no matter what they did, but she still used that as a hammer to get Jon to go along with her plan. She then makes a U-turn after their pre-battle meeting with Ramsey and tells Jon that they have to write off Rikon. She also withheld knowledge that she had sent word to the Vale for reinforcements, likely costing the lives of many men who had pledged to their cause unnecessarily. So also made a lot of assumptions (like the northern houses being willing to rally around them just because of the Stark name) that didn't pan out. She has shown a ruthless side to her, to use others for her own purposes. Now that can be understandable given what she'd suffered. But she also shows very poor judgement on who she can trust and when to use  her magic clever powers. Trusting Littlefinger in any capacity totally negates any claim that she's got any kind of real political aptitude. 

[GrailKing]

Like GOT ? Like Queen ? Like Bohemian Rhapsody ?

 

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Though, I am looking forward to some Arya scenes.  I do think that this

is with Arya. They seem to be having a fun sparring session according to spoilers. Maybe initially Arya and Brienne don't get along because Arya and Sansa clash. And then Brienne comes to respect her and form an alliance. I can't think of anyone else in the North and Brienne seems to be only going south in the very last episode.

I read that quote and couldn't think whom Gwendoline Christie meant, but Arya seems like a good fit.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I read that quote and couldn't think whom Gwendoline Christie meant, but Arya seems like a good fit.

The way Gwendoline worded that quote made me think of someone Brienne wouldn't 'like' immediately', and I think she already likes Arya due to her oath to Catelyn.

[aslightjump]

The only real "Sansa is smart, Jon is dumb" narrative I'm really seeing pushed is here. AFAIK, all that d&d, Sophie, Kit, and Liam have really said is that Jon doesnt always listen to Sansa when it might benefit him and that frustrates her. Because yeah, Jon's political know how ONLY comes from the Wall and the Wildlings. Sansa does know Cersei and did know Ramsay better. Now if the writing pulled this off is a whole nother ballgame - I think they did an okay job of showing they were both wrong and both right and need to work together. Jon even says this outright.

Moreover the show rewards both their narratives. Sansa gets Winterfell back, what she has ostensibly been chasing after for multiple seasons, and kill Ramsay, and Jon becomes King of the North after winning an impossible battle and finally has a place among the Starks. Show goes out of its way to show they both made mistakes in keeping with their previous development, but were ultimately right and can learn from this.

I'm really only irritated that we're recycling a storyline we've already resolved. Every other thing has to do with Sansa and Jons separate development. Their stories are linked; their development is not.

I am excited to see Sansa get rid of Littlefinger though.

Edited July 12, 2017 by aslightjump
Mobile is hell

[OhOkayWhat]

34 minutes ago, aslightjump said:

The only real "Sansa is smart, Jon is dumb" narrative I'm really seeing pushed is here.

I agree with you on this. Well, it's being pushed here and in other forums too.

On screen we see both dealing with terrible traumas. We see them both making mistakes. There is not a "Sansa is smart, Jon is dumb" narrative. There is only the actions they do.

People so easily mix the on screen narrative with the interviews, behind-the-scenes comments, etc. But they are different things. And they also are open to interpretation.

And if we talk about Winterfell I think it will be interesting to see Petyr using Arya's delusion of being a "bringer of justice" to manipulate her. The famous letter he uses is just the top of the iceberg.

Edited July 12, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, doram said:

I always chalked that up to bad writing but looked at objectively, that was some straight-up cold-blooded shit that she pulled with her "brothers" there. Basically, she used Rickon as a tool to get Jon to enact her own personal revenge against Ramsay, and then when he wasn't necessary anymore, she cut him out to dry. Considering, too, how hostile Sansa was to Jon growing up, it really makes her new-found affection for him even more manipulative. Basically, he was just a means to an end to her - and now, apparently, he's an obstacle in her way. 

Do we even see Sansa grieve for Rickon? Or, come to think of it, for any of her family besides the "now that Robb is dead, no one will save me"?

I think, given the way it's filmed, that the moment where Sansa demands proof that Ramsay has Rickon and the Smalljon throws Shaggydog's severed head on the ground in 609 is meant to be the moment where she realizes they're not getting Rickon back.  There's virtually no transition between the 604 and 609 scenes, so it's jarring, but I think that's what they're going for, not that she was never sincere in wanting to save him.

Sansa's shown staring at Rickon's corpse before demanding to know where Ramsay is, so I think that's meant as her reaction, i.e, cold fury.

As far as grief goes, we saw her grieve for Ned, obviously.  We got her reactions to Ned and Catelyn, but the show skipped over anything in relation to Bran and Rickon -- indeed, her getting pissed off at Theon in 505 was the first time we ever saw her acknowledge her brothers were thought to be dead (which, incidentally, if D&D had been planning to put Sansa in the North since Season 2, it's even stranger as a writing choice in retrospect that they didn't put any setup at all in for Sansa's rage at Theon).

Edited July 12, 2017 by SeanC

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

On screen we see both dealing with terrible traumas. We see them both making mistakes. There is not a "Sansa is smart, Jon is dumb" narrative. There is only the actions they do.

People so easily mix the on screen narrative with the interviews, behind-the-scenes comments, etc. But they are different things. And they also are open to interpretation.

I see this narrative pushed often in online forums-but agree that it's not the show's intent. It mostly seems to come from Sansa fans who argue that she should be the one with elevated power and Jon did her wrong somehow. I've never really understood that argument. I just rewatched season 6, and she isn't particularly helpful to Jon as they plan to fight for Winterfell. She makes speeches about how she's valuable and he should listen to her, but when he does she doesn't tell him anything of value, or with any clarity. He's open to listening to her counsel and trusting her, but she doesn't give him the chance. And of course, in the end she sends him and their army into battle completely outmatched and lets a bunch of them get killed because she didn't want to tell him she had another army up her sleeve. I really don't want to see that power struggle dynamic dragging on too much in the new season; they've never written it well and it reflects badly on her character in ways they clearly don't intend.

I think the "Jon is dumb" thing is also fueled by people who felt the same about Ned and Robb and want to draw parallels about the Stark men. 

[OhOkayWhat]

43 minutes ago, stagmania said:

it reflects badly on her character in ways they clearly don't intend.

The problem is people disagree about what they intended with the narrative. 

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

The way Gwendoline worded that quote made me think of someone Brienne wouldn't 'like' immediately', and I think she already likes Arya due to her oath to Catelyn.

She is already repulsed by Tormund...but he got game...as in chicken...

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, doram said:

I always chalked that up to bad writing but looked at objectively, that was some straight-up cold-blooded shit that she pulled with her "brothers" there. Basically, she used Rickon as a tool to get Jon to enact her own personal revenge against Ramsay, and then when he wasn't necessary anymore, she cut him out to dry. Considering, too, how hostile Sansa was to Jon growing up, it really makes her new-found affection for him even more manipulative. Basically, he was just a means to an end to her - and now, apparently, he's an obstacle in her way. 

Do we even see Sansa grieve for Rickon? Or, come to think of it, for any of her family besides the "now that Robb is dead, no one will save me"?

I think you totally read that wrong, everything she stated to Jon before and when the letter came  was sincere and correct, at the parley when she asked about Rickon and Shaggy's head was thrown down that look to Ramsey and Umber was cold quiet rage, at that point I think she felt Rickon was already dead or will be before the battle;  hence her " You're going to die tomorrow Lord Bolton..Sleep well".

She was pragmatic with Jon in the tent and when she saw how he was planning I think she was determined to get those Knights no matter what, I think when she told Jon they won't get Rickon back I felt she thought he was truly dead, it never came to her he keep Rickon alive as the trap for Jon.

When she saw Rickon's dead body I saw controlled emotion with a calm rage when she asked Jon where Ramsey was.

I also believe the person who left the kennels open may have been Ramsey himself, being cock sure he win.

People seem to forget Tyrion hearing Sansa cry behind closed doors on the death of her family, or her tears in season three, or hearing the news from LF that Arya is alive, or about Jon alive   and now LC from Myranda in the Eyrie.

[Lemuria]

First, let me say that I thought that whoever did that video--and wrote a GoT version of "Bohemian Rhapsody--did a brilliant job.  Bravo!

I can never figure out where anything is on Reddit (probably because I go there once a year when someone mentions something that sounds interesting), so can anyone tell me what the Hound's vision was in the "recap"?  Thanks.

 

Hana Chan, I very much agree with your posts about the Jon-Sansa situation.  It's interesting that while Dany talks about breaking the wheel--but not so much that she doesn't end up sitting on the Iron Throne--Jon seems to be the one actually doing that:  he's altered the 1,000 (or more)-year relationship between the Wildings and the North, and he's altering the way the North deals with rebellious houses, recognizing that only those who made the choice to join the enemy should pay the price, not those who were given no choice in the matter (and that throwing the children out and giving their ancestral homes to other could just spark another round of vengeance-seeking, as we had with the Karstarks).

Jon has been betrayed by those he trusted; I don't think he's all that naive anymore.  I don't think he'll trust Cersei in general but I do think he would believe that she wouldn't be so foolish as to act against her own interests.  Which will apparently turn out to be wrong.

[Spartan Girl]

19 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Like GOT ? Like Queen ? Like Bohemian Rhapsody ?

 

 

Hard to top the Muppet Bohemian Rhapsody, but that was fucking brilliant.

[Edith]

7 hours ago, Lemuria said:

First, let me say that I thought that whoever did that video--and wrote a GoT version of "Bohemian Rhapsody--did a brilliant job.  Bravo!

I can never figure out where anything is on Reddit (probably because I go there once a year when someone mentions something that sounds interesting), so can anyone tell me what the Hound's vision was in the "recap"?  Thanks.

"Also I forgot to mention another key scene that happens here. Sorry been on and off the net all day running around getting groceries errands and stuff. Their is a scene where The Hound and the Red preist and flaming sword dude reach a farm. Same one Arya and The Hound were at many seasons ago. The Father and Daughter who use to live there have died from starvation. Hound and Flaming Sword dude have a conversation about if a god exists why is it so cruel hence why hound doesnt bother with that kind of shit. Priest asks him to look into the flames and tell him what he sees. Hound reluctantly does it. Sees a vision of a giant mountain shaped as an arrow head. Priest is like now do you believe and the Hound is clearly unsettled"

[Eyes High]

A few things from reviews of 7x01 posted by journalists at the premiere:

1. The first scene is a cold open where Arya massacres the Freys at a dinner by poisoning them (the review doesn't specify that it's Arya and the Freys, but it talks about a gathering, a dramatic unveiling, and a massacre without actual violence).

2. Lads2's script page allegedly from 7x01 is indeed accurate, as a reviewer quoted a line from that script page. This seems like strong evidence that the other four script pages and Lads2's other information was all accurate as well.

3. The last line of 7x01 is the same one that Lads1 claimed: "Shall we begin?" (The reviewer doesn't say who says the line, but we know from Lads1 that it's Tyrion.)

Interestingly, Gotit1111, the person who claimed to have seen 7x01 a few days ago, was the first to say that the first scene was the Arya cold open, as opposed to what Lads1 and Lads2 said (the first scene is the WW advancing on the Wall). So maybe the Hound does have wacky visions in the flames after all.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Katsullivan]

It's hard for me to have an opinion about the Jon/Sansa potential conflict or even Sansa herself because she seems more of a plot device than a character. She's weak and easily manipulated when it serves the plot, and pragmatic and hard-eyed when it does. I don't think the writers have made up their minds what they want her endgame to be, and I think that it's interesting because of all the main characters of the show, her TV-plot has diverged the most from her book-plot. Does that mean that whatever Sansa does has no bearing on the ASOIAF endgame? 

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

It's interesting that while Dany talks about breaking the wheel--but not so much that she doesn't end up sitting on the Iron Throne--Jon seems to be the one actually doing that:  he's altered the 1,000 (or more)-year relationship between the Wildings and the North, and he's altering the way the North deals with rebellious houses, recognizing that only those who made the choice to join the enemy should pay the price, not those who were given no choice in the matter (and that throwing the children out and giving their ancestral homes to other could just spark another round of vengeance-seeking, as we had with the Karstarks).

The wheel Dany was referring to was the cycle of false Kings that had followed after Robert's Rebellion. She was claiming the Iron Throne that she considered her birthright (there's also the fact that as a Targaryen Dany will always be a threat to the ruler of Westeros regardless of what she decided to do) to break that wheel. 

But if we're talking about people doing revolutionary things or changing the way things are traditionally done, then Dany gets credit for ending the millennia-long economy of slave trade in Essos and establishing a sustainable rule of government there. Before it's pointed out that she needed an Army, note that after she got her Unsullied she could have kept marching on to Westeros with them. She remained in the East to free slaves and to rule in a way that would not cause the system to revert in her absence. Note also that Jon is uniting the wildlings and the North because of the threat of the White Walkers. His reasons are less altruistic and more pragmatic than Dany's. Jon, by the way, accepted the title of King in the North even though he has no claim to it, and his sister was literally sitting right there. Wars have started in this world over siblings squabbling over who got to rule. Stannis vs Renly. Aegon vs Rhaenya. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Hana Chan]

Interesting snippet about Sansa (since she seems to be the hot topic right now):

Quote

 

When viewers last saw Sansa Stark in the season six finale of Game of Thrones, she appeared to be struggling to reconcile her support for Jon Snow — who she believes is her half-brother — with her own desire for power. As Jon was proclaimed the King in the North by the Northern lords, Sansa shared a glance with Littlefinger that seemed to suggest she had doubts about not taking his advice to lay claim to her home kingdom as the true born daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark.

However, during a recent interview with W Magazine, Sophie Turner — who plays the elder Stark daughter —hinted that her character may have no intention of turning her back on Jon or any other member of her family.

“Now that she’s became a leader, she has Winterfell, she has her home, she has her brother,” Turner explained. “She’s got to the point where she has that power that she’s been longing for. And the ability to kind of hopefully bring the people that she loves back to her or create a safe haven if they do come back to her. It’s more about her figuring out how to treat that power and how to surround herself with the people that are best for her. This season is about trust and loyalty.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-apos-sophie-turner-201640640.html

 

I'm gratified that whatever disputes between Sansa and Jon isn't going to reach the point where she's actively working with Littlefinger against Jon. Here's hoping that she's instead going to play along with Baylish in order to give him enough rope so that he can hang himself.

I'm still, admittedly, somewhat at a loss about how she's a "leader". Besides getting the Knights of the Vale to play cavalry (which was due more to Littlefinger wanting into her pants than any great leadership qualities, I haven't see it. Being a leader means that people want to follow you and I haven't seen anyone wanting to follow Sansa. The lords of the North certainly weren't willing to rally for her. No one proclaimed her as Queen in the North. Her power is, frankly, coming from the fact that she's Jon's sister (as far as anyone knows) and he's King. He's the only that was able to get men to rally under the Stark banner (including the Wildlings). It was Jon that Davos spoke about when convincing Lady Mormont to give her allegence to, not Sansa. And it wasn't because Jon is of Stark blood, but because of his leadership at the Wall. Jon has proven repeatedly that he's willing to die not just for the causes that he fights for, but for those who follow him. 

That's not to say that she doesn't have the potential to grow into a leadership role while Jon is in the south. If the storyline is played out properly, she can become a figure that the lords who allied with Jon will rally behind in his absence and start learning what being a leader really is beyond being referred to as Lady Stark.

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It's hard for me to have an opinion about the Jon/Sansa potential conflict or even Sansa herself because she seems more of a plot device than a character. She's weak and easily manipulated when it serves the plot, and pragmatic and hard-eyed when it does. I don't think the writers have made up their minds what they want her endgame to be, and I think that it's interesting because of all the main characters of the show, her TV-plot has diverged the most from her book-plot. Does that mean that whatever Sansa does has no bearing on the ASOIAF endgame? 

I guess D&D figure they can get to her ASOIAF endgame another way. Sometimes with GOT after the end of a particular season or plot arc I can look back at plot/character stuff that didn't make a lot of sense at the time and go "Ohhhhhhh" in recognition, because I can see with the benefit of hindsight what D&D were trying to do and where they were trying to go. My hope is that whatever happens to Sansa in the very end, it will illuminate some of the stranger choices they've made for the character. I could be giving the writers too much credit, of course.

 

Quote

But if we're talking about people doing revolutionary things or changing the way things are traditionally done, then Dany gets credit for ending the millennia-long economy of slave trade in Essos and establishing a sustainable rule of government there. Before it's pointed out that she needed an Army, note that after she got her Unsullied she could have kept marching on to Westeros with them. She remained in the East to free slaves and to rule in a way that would not cause the system to revert in her absence. Note also that Jon is uniting the wildlings and the North because of the threat of the White Walkers. His reasons are less altruistic and more pragmatic than Dany's.

Yes. In Season 6, Dany could have escaped with Jorah and Daario in 6x04, but she realized that doing so would be leaving the Dothraki women to be abused and other people to be enslaved by their shitty khals, so she decided to rid the Dothraki of the khals instead and try to change their culture from within. In one of the rare instances of subtlety on the show, Dany gives the Dothraki the same motivational speech Drogo gave them back in Season 1, but she leaves out the part about raping the women and enslaving the children in Westeros.

 

Quote

Jon, by the way, accepted the title of King in the North even though he has no claim to it, and his sister was literally sitting right there. Wars have started in this world over siblings squabbling over who got to rule. Stannis vs Renly. Aegon vs Rhaenya. 

The title was an elected one. Sansa had no claim to it. She remains Lady of Winterfell, which is the title she can claim by birthright (at least until Bran gets back).

I also think if Sansa seriously wanted the Northern leadership, she shouldn't have propped up Jon as the face of the Northern movement to reclaim Winterfell, given him Stark furs, let him do all the talking (Jon is the one who addresses Lyanna and Lord Glover first, and Jon is the one who speaks at the big meeting in 6x10), left all the major decisions to him, allowed him to take the lead on strategy, and acted for all intents and purposes as nothing more than one of Jon's advisers. The Northerners had no reason to treat Sansa like a candidate for Northern leadership, because she never acted like one. Sansa was content to sit back and let Jon do all the work, and now she's stuck with the result. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Hana Chan]

Sansa, let's be honest, has no right to be Queen in the North. Bran supersedes her in the succession if it comes down to who has the greater "right" to the title (though his disability would make it all but impossible to fulfill the duties). Jon may not have the right of blood since he wasn't legitimized, but he clearly had something that the Northern lords wanted, and that was the actual ability to lead them in a time of war. The North had been pretty well trashed by the failure of Robb's campaign and then the rule of the Boltons. 

If I had my choice between someone who's been in command of the Night's Watch, lead men into battle and forged strong alliances between traditional enemies and someone who's spent the past few years being betrothed and married off (against her will) to some of their worst enemies, it's not a hard choice. I like Sansa, but she has never lead or commanded anything. She's never even managed a household. What she should be Queen other than being born on the right side of the sheets when she is otherwise completely unqualified is beyond me.

[Katsullivan]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

Sansa, let's be honest, has no right to be Queen in the North. Bran supersedes her in the succession if it comes down to who has the greater "right" to the title (though his disability would make it all but impossible to fulfill the duties). Jon may not have the right of blood since he wasn't legitimized, but he clearly had something that the Northern lords wanted, and that was the actual ability to lead them in a time of war. The North had been pretty well trashed by the failure of Robb's campaign and then the rule of the Boltons. 

Bran is believed to have died, either burned to death in Winterfell or having died across the Wall. 

 

Quote

What she should be Queen other than being born on the right side of the sheets when she is otherwise completely unqualified is beyond me.

That's exactly how Kings and Queen are chosen in this world and when people don't stick to these 'rules', wars are fought. Westeros is not a democracy. Kings and Queens aren't chosen because of who is more qualified. Babies have been murdered because of which side of the sheets they were born.  Old Aemon Targaryen needed to go to the Wall because he knew that even though he didn't want to be King, he'd become a rallying point against his will for those who would oppose his younger, more qualified brother's rule. This also works on a smaller scale. Sam was sent to the Wall because his father wanted his younger brother to be Lord in his place and gave Sam the choice of being murdered or being exiled. You'd think that the reigning Lord would have a right to choose which of his sons should succeed him in his place, but it never works that way.

 

Which makes Jon basically usurping Sansa to her face and nobody (except devious Littlefinger) raising an eyebrow over it all the more galling. I'm not arguing that Sansa would make a better Queen or it makes any kind of sense to crown her as Queen. But by their own culture and standards what Jon did was a declaration of civil war and I think it says something about how little the GOT showrunners understand the world of ASOIAF that they did that with so little consideration. 

(Anyway, my point wasn't really about Jon vs Sansa but about how Jon accepting to be KitN is just as selfish, maybe even more so, than Dany wanting to sit on her family's throne.  I really don't care to see Sansa as QitN.)

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I guess D&D figure they can get to her ASOIAF endgame another way. Sometimes with GOT after the end of a particular season or plot arc I can look back at plot/character stuff that didn't make a lot of sense at the time and go "Ohhhhhhh" in recognition, because I can see with the benefit of hindsight what D&D were trying to do and where they were trying to go. My hope is that whatever happens to Sansa in the very end, it will illuminate some of the stranger choices they've made for the character. I could be giving the writers too much credit, of course.

Let's hope then because otherwise it would be a big shame. 

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

A few things from reviews of 7x01 posted by journalists at the premiere:

1. The first scene is a cold open where Arya massacres the Freys at a dinner by poisoning them (the review doesn't specify that it's Arya and the Freys, but it talks about a gathering, a dramatic unveiling, and a massacre without actual violence).

2. Lads2's script page allegedly from 7x01 is indeed accurate, as a reviewer quoted a line from that script page. This seems like strong evidence that the other four script pages and Lads2's other information was all accurate as well.

3. The last line of 7x01 is the same one that Lads1 claimed: "Shall we begin?" (The reviewer doesn't say who says the line, but we know from Lads1 that it's Tyrion.)

Also agrees with the spoilers posted by the person who watched the first episode.

18 hours ago, aslightjump said:

AFAIK, all that d&d, Sophie, Kit, and Liam have really said is that Jon doesnt always listen to Sansa when it might benefit him and that frustrates her. Because yeah, Jon's political know how ONLY comes from the Wall and the Wildlings.

I feel like I am flogging a dead horse by now, considering the 50 other times I have mentioned it in this thread. So let me do it one last time, before I exit discussion on this topic.

Jon was brought up by Ned Stark in the North. In the books, he plans Stannis' entire military campaign in the North - he explains to Stannis how to approach the mountain clans and which houses are likely to support him. He creates a new Northern house, and allies Wildlings to the North - informing Stannis of Karstark treachery. He invites the leaders of the mountain clans to Alys' wedding and convinces them that bringing the wildlings this side of the wall was the right thing to do. So no, Jon's political know how does NOT only come from the wall and the wildlings. In fact his downfall as LC of the watch was precisely because he kept meddling in the politics of the North - the last straw being his plan to go attack Ramsay.  In the show, we had Stannis asking Jon about the Northern houses and Jon explaining things to him.

Again, for those people in the back, before next season starts : Jon was brought up in Winterfell and well versed in the politics of the North.

As for Jon not listening to Sansa, when it benefits him, when was this? Sometimes I feel like I am watching a different show. She wants him to fight for WF, he fights.  She scolds him for taking advice from Davos and Tormund. How would not listening to Davos benefit Jon? She scolds him for fighting with less men. He asks her where to get more men. She does not mention the Vale. Am I missing something?  'Don't do what he wants you to do'? What is Jon supposed to reply to that? 'Good advice Sansa, I won't do what he wants me to do!" What else?

This is the narrative that I am talking about - that Jon knows stuff only about the wall and should listen to and take advice from Sansa because she knows better. This is wrong. Both in the show and books. As shown pretty clearly last season. Sansa's 'advice' in season 6 was shit. All she did was complain - without offering anything useful in return. Again, why in the world should Jon listen to her? Give me one useful piece of advice Sansa gave Jon last season that Jon did not listen to? (Other than going after his brother).

Sansa's only qualifications at this point are that she understands Ramsay and Cersei because she got imprisoned by them due to her stupidity. Ramsay is dead and that leaves only Cersei. Looking forward to hearing her expert Cersei advice next season and  looking forward to Jon shutting down her nonsense 'advice' in the premiere.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Which makes Jon basically usurping Sansa to her face and nobody (except devious Littlefinger) raising an eyebrow over it all the more galling. I'm not arguing that Sansa would make a better Queen or it makes any kind of sense to crown her as Queen. But by their own culture and standards what Jon did was a declaration of civil war and I think it says something about how little the GOT showrunners understand the world of ASOIAF that they did that with so little consideration. 

(Anyway, my point wasn't really about Jon vs Sansa but about how Jon accepting to be KitN is just as selfish, maybe even more so, than Dany wanting to sit on her family's throne.  I really don't care to see Sansa as QitN.)

As I see it, the Northerners elected Jon to be their leader, unprompted, and made it clear that they wanted Jon to be the one to lead them, not Sansa. Jon didn't usurp Sansa, because she had no entitlement to be chosen as the QITN. In both instances, the Northerners elected someone to rule them: Robb and Jon. Robb didn't choose independence or to claim the title of king; the Northern lords came up with the idea of independence and the KITN title and Robb accepted it. The same thing happened with Jon. That's not usually how these things go in Westeros; the people don't usually choose their rulers, and title is determined by birthright not the popular wishes of the nobility. The KITN title as resurrected by Greatjon is special, and different, and just as with Robb, no one has a presumptive right to it. You're either chosen, or you're not, and Sansa was not.

Now Jon could have refused to honour the Northerners' choice by insisting that they name Bran instead (with Sansa to serve in Bran's stead until Bran's return), absolutely. But this is TV Jon (as opposed to Book Jon, who is a good deal more ambitious even if he's conflicted about it). He doesn't care about titles, but he does care about uniting the North against a common enemy and finding areas of agreement at all costs. He was presented with a golden opportunity to unite the Northerners by acceding to their loudly expressed wishes and accepting the position of KITN, and he took it. It wasn't selfish at all, to me, especially given that Jon knows full well what happened to the last person who was elected as KITN.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Hana Chan]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Which makes Jon basically usurping Sansa to her face and nobody (except devious Littlefinger) raising an eyebrow over it all the more galling.

Except that Jon didn't usurp her. He was named King by all of the Northern houses who proclaimed him as such. There was no one clamoring for Sansa. Not even the Knights of the Vale spoke up that the only reason they came to Jon's rescue was because Sansa had arranged it. No one looked to Sansa for leadership.

And that, for me, is what this is boiling down to. Jon can lead the North. Sansa can't. Sansa has been manipulated and used every inch of the way throughout her storyline, more a passenger than the actual pilot of her own life. She brings nothing to the table except her bloodline and the North is at the point where they need someone who can actually lead them in a time of war. 

We're seeing an end to the usual way that leaders come to power in Westeros. Cersi's ass is sitting on the Iron Throne because she's managed to outlive/kill any "legitimate" rivals, not because she has the right under the normal rules of succession. Robert became king  after leading the rebellion that wiped out the Targaryens, not because he had the "right". 

Quote

 Old Aemon Targaryen needed to go to the Wall because he knew that even though he didn't want to be King, he'd become a rallying point against his will for those who would oppose his younger, more qualified brother's rule. 

Which makes my point precisely. Aemon didn't want to be king (and probably wouldn't have been a good king) so he took himself out of the way for a "more qualified" ruler. Sansa was placed in much the same position. Whatever "right" she believes she has, she would be entirely dishonest to think that she would be the kind of leader that Jon has proven himself to be. Jon has shown time and time again that he's not just willing to fight, but he's willing to die for not just his causes, but for the men at his side. That makes men want to follow him. No one wants to follow Sansa. She's got nil in the way of leadership skills. Look what happened when she went with Jon trying to rally the Northern Houses against Ramsey. Lady Mormont mocked her to her face, asking if she was a Lannister or a Bolton. 

And when Arya and Bran arrive at Winterfell, neither of them are going to stand against Jon even though both of them have more "right" than he does. 

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

We're seeing an end to the usual way that leaders come to power in Westeros. Cersi's ass is sitting on the Iron Throne because she's managed to outlive/kill any "legitimate" rivals, not because she has the right under the normal rules of succession. Robert became king  after leading the rebellion that wiped out the Targaryens, not because he had the "right". 

Very good point. In the show, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes lead the Dornish because they got rid of the weak, despised Doran and were more popular and beloved than he was. Dany was chosen by the Dothraki to rule them after she killed the competition. Jon was elected to be KITN. Cersei killed her way to the throne (and of course she's the one who told Ned way back in Season 1 that he should have taken the throne for himself back in the day, despite having not one drop of Targaryen blood). The wildlings, who choose their leaders, will be integrating with the Northerners. The Ironborn used the kingsmoot to choose Euron, and a number of them defected anyway to side with Yara and Theon. And so on.

I think whoever ultimately sits on the Iron Throne--and right now the candidate pool is looking pretty small--will be there not because they particularly want to be, but because the people want them there.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Katsullivan]

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jon didn't usurp Sansa, because she had no entitlement to be chosen as the QITN. In both instances, the Northerners elected someone to rule them: Robb and Jon. Robb didn't choose independence or to claim the title of king; the Northern lords came up with the idea of independence and the KITN title and Robb accepted it. The same thing happened with Jon. That's not usually how these things go in Westeros; the people don't usually choose their rulers, and title is determined by birthright not the popular wishes of the nobility. The KITN title as resurrected by Greatjon is special, and different, and just as with Robb, no one has a presumptive right to it. You're either chosen, or you're not, and Sansa was not.

Only Jon's claim to the title is because he's Ned Stark's son. 

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Except that Jon didn't usurp her. He was named King by all of the Northern houses who proclaimed him as such. There was no one clamoring for Sansa. Not even the Knights of the Vale spoke up that the only reason they came to Jon's rescue was because Sansa had arranged it. No one looked to Sansa for leadership.

 

The House of Stark is entitled to the KitN as long as the title exists. They were the Kings before Tormund Bent the Knee. It's not a 'elected' title. Greatjon didn't elect Robb - he proposed Northern Independence. Greatjon's more or less exact words were: 'it was the Dragons we married, and the Dragons are dead. Why should anyone rule over the North?' The Stark family is tied to the title intrinsically. 

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

We're seeing an end to the usual way that leaders come to power in Westeros. Cersi's ass is sitting on the Iron Throne because she's managed to outlive/kill any "legitimate" rivals, not because she has the right under the normal rules of succession.

Cersei has the right as next of kin to the last living King. 

 

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Which makes my point precisely. Aemon didn't want to be king (and probably wouldn't have been a good king) so he took himself out of the way for a "more qualified" ruler. Sansa was placed in much the same position.

No, that is the counterpoint to your statement. Aemon had to take himself out of the way for his brother to be King. Sansa has not taken herself out of the way. As long as she exists as a potential legitimate Queen - as the legitimate Queen, she is a Problem, regardless of how she herself feels about the matter. The fact that Jon is being crowned and Sansa is sitting by his side, (apparently) smiling in agreement is an anomaly. 

Quote

Whatever "right" she believes she has, she would be entirely dishonest to think that she would be the kind of leader that Jon has proven himself to be.

Has anything in this story led you to believe that people claim power because they think that they will be good leaders who are willing to die for their people?

 

 

 

Once again, I'm not arguing over whether Sansa should be Queen or would make a good leader or any of that.

I'm saying that according to the laws and costums of Westeros and the North, according to the bloody civil wars that have occurred because of this exact situation played out on both smaller and larger scales, what happened was an anomaly to the story we've been told so far. 

And that's about all I'm going to say about this because people seem unable to separate that there is a difference between having a problem with:

1. the how of Jon's 'crowning', the way that story was played out, against the back-drop of this world, and the larger consequences of it being ignored,

2, the fact that he was crowned. 

My problem is with (1) and not (2).

Edited July 13, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And that's about all I'm going to say about this because people seem unable to separate that there is a difference between having a problem with:

1. the how of Jon's 'crowning', the way that story was played out, against the back-drop of this world, and the larger consequences of it being ignored,

2, the fact that he was crowned. 

My problem is with (1) and not (2).

Well, the elephant in the room when it comes to this discussion is that the show did away with Robb's will, i.e. the mechanism for Jon to succeed Robb in the books and for Sansa to be disinherited, so they came up with this instead. Personally, I don't mind the way the alternative route the writers took to get to what I expect will be the same result in the book--Jon in and Sansa out--but mileage varies on this point. 

Back to Season 7: leaks and script pages confirmed! Interestingly, when yeahturner posted on Twitter about the 7x01 reviews confirming the leaked script page, Sue the Fury at WOTW's response was amused surprise that the trailer and set pics hadn't already convinced yeahturner.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Some day I'd really like to know who Lads was and how they got all that information.

[Edith]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Back to Season 7: leaks and script pages confirmed! Interestingly, when yeahturner posted on Twitter about the 7x01 reviews confirming the leaked script page, Sue the Fury at WOTW's response was amused surprise that the trailer and set pics hadn't already convinced yeahturner.

And the guy who saw episode 1 already too! 

Now a "giant mountain shaped as an arrow head" that's new! 

What do you guys think it is? 

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I guess D&D figure they can get to her ASOIAF endgame another way. Sometimes with GOT after the end of a particular season or plot arc I can look back at plot/character stuff that didn't make a lot of sense at the time and go "Ohhhhhhh" in recognition, because I can see with the benefit of hindsight what D&D were trying to do and where they were trying to go. My hope is that whatever happens to Sansa in the very end, it will illuminate some of the stranger choices they've made for the character. I could be giving the writers too much credit, of course.

 

Yes. In Season 6, Dany could have escaped with Jorah and Daario in 6x04, but she realized that doing so would be leaving the Dothraki women to be abused and other people to be enslaved by their shitty khals, so she decided to rid the Dothraki of the khals instead and try to change their culture from within. In one of the rare instances of subtlety on the show, Dany gives the Dothraki the same motivational speech Drogo gave them back in Season 1, but she leaves out the part about raping the women and enslaving the children in Westeros.

Could you share some examples of what you see as "benefit of hindsight" decisions? I find it really interesting to think about that aspect of the show, how the showrunners were influenced by their knowledge of the ending (and how they learned more from GRRM over the years) and it ought to make for a fun post-season 8 rewatch of the series. That point about Drogo actually makes the speech stand out compared to Dany's usual conqueror stuff because she's taking what she learned from him and adjusting it so it fits both his culture and her values. In Sansa's case, I think she either dies and thus is free to be used as Jeyne Poole/cause of temporary Stark tension because it won't change anything major, or she survives as the Lady of Winterfell and the show wanted to move on to that buildup as soon as possible.

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Back to Season 7: leaks and script pages confirmed! Interestingly, when yeahturner posted on Twitter about the 7x01 reviews confirming the leaked script page, Sue the Fury at WOTW's response was amused surprise that the trailer and set pics hadn't already convinced yeahturner.

The leaks made the wait for season 7 such fun, seeing bits and pieces hinted at, photographed on the set or confirmed in the trailer, and now even the script pages are known to be real. I didn't doubt the script pages but it still feels great to see them confirmed - in a way, it's even better that this happened before the premiere aired, because now it feels like the whole adventure of the leaks began and concluded before season 7.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The title was an elected one. Sansa had no claim to it. She remains Lady of Winterfell, which is the title she can claim by birthright (at least until Bran gets back).

I also think if Sansa seriously wanted the Northern leadership, she shouldn't have propped up Jon as the face of the Northern movement to reclaim Winterfell, given him Stark furs, let him do all the talking (Jon is the one who addresses Lyanna and Lord Glover first, and Jon is the one who speaks at the big meeting in 6x10), left all the major decisions to him, allowed him to take the lead on strategy, and acted for all intents and purposes as nothing more than one of Jon's advisers. The Northerners had no reason to treat Sansa like a candidate for Northern leadership, because she never acted like one. Sansa was content to sit back and let Jon do all the work, and now she's stuck with the result. 

She still be the Lady of Winterfell, unless Bran Marries.

I think her being "content" is her setup to keep Balish at bay without totally loosing him and the Vale and setting him up for later, smoke and mirrors.

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She still be the Lady of Winterfell, unless Bran Marries.

No, Lady of Winterfell is a title for either the consort of the Lord or for a female ruler.  It isn't bestowed upon the Lord's closest female relative in the absence of a bride, anymore than that's the case with the title queen.  Though obviously, were Bran to become Lord and remain unmarried, Sansa would probably carry out the household duties of a consort Lady, but without the title.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

She's never even managed a household. What she should be Queen other than being born on the right side of the sheets when she is otherwise completely unqualified is beyond me.   Sansa has been manipulated and used every inch of the way throughout her storyline, more a passenger than the actual pilot of her own life. She brings nothing to the table except her bloodline and the North is at the point where they need someone who can actually lead them in a time of war. 

They cut her Vale arc from the books, in the books she IS running a house, she has the affection of Robyn ,NOT LF.

While she may not have started as a pilot after book 1 and season 1 that changed albeit in small steps, I think this season they will fold her Vale arc into the WF one on screen.

Her Name and Bloodline saved the KITN and help take back Winterfell.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Her Name and Bloodline saved the KITN and help take back Winterfell.

Actually, Littlefinger wanting into her pants is what help retake Winterfell. No one was rallying to help Ned Stark's trueborn daughter. 

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, Lady of Winterfell is a title for either the consort of the Lord or for a female ruler.  It isn't bestowed upon the Lord's closest female relative in the absence of a bride, anymore than that's the case with the title queen.  Though obviously, were Bran to become Lord and remain unmarried, Sansa would probably carry out the household duties of a consort Lady, but without the title.

Legally that may be correct, but as far as northerners go I think they still would call her or treat her as the Lady of Winterfell until  Bran marries ( I don't think he will ).

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Back to Season 7: leaks and script pages confirmed! Interestingly, when yeahturner posted on Twitter about the 7x01 reviews confirming the leaked script page, Sue the Fury at WOTW's response was amused surprise that the trailer and set pics hadn't already convinced yeahturner.

First two episode leaks as well. Now if the guy who leaked the first episode is correct - and it seems he is - then there are a few small changes in the lads spoilers. For example Lads had mentioned that Lyanna sides with Sansa and is displeased with Jon's decision to forgive the children. But as per spoilers for episode one:

Quote

Mostly Jon is talking to all the houses about his plans for the upcoming invasion. He insists that all men women and children boys and girls train to fight. Saying that we woint win if half the population just sits there. The young girl from that Bear house gets in one guys face who objects. She says something along the lines of "Im not gonna sit and knit while my north fights for its survival" pretty badass.

Lyanna doesnt object to Jon, she agrees with him. She objects to a leader of a house who refuses to train women and children.

And from the premiere review:

Quote

"One of the biggest cheers in the auditorium last night was for the Little Bear, Lyanna Mormont, whose take-no-shit primary school age ruler of Bear Island is back with a vengeance. "

So it looks like Lyanna Mormont supports Jon, not Sansa. And it looks like the rest of the Northern lords agree with Jon too.

The 'revolt' Jon is facing in episode two increasingly looks like just Sansa disagreeing with him and LF plotting from the shadows.

Edited July 13, 2017 by anamika

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Actually, Littlefinger wanting into her pants is what help retake Winterfell. No one was rallying to help Ned Stark's trueborn daughter. 

Yes he wanted that, and she knew it, it's because she had the right name and bloodline and he will pay for it.

You missed the old lady in Winterfell, or the old guy that got Briennes message to her? 

It was in the works, Reek betrayed them, and Brienne left for petty revenge

And if Luka's  corrected info is correct we will see her transformation this season.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Could you share some examples of what you see as "benefit of hindsight" decisions?

Off the top of my head, Shireen and Melisandre's conversation in 4x02, which seemed random and filler-y at the time and a lot less random with the full knowledge in hindsight of Shireen's end. Things like that.

 

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

until  Bran marries ( I don't think he will ).

Yeah, Meera apparently ditching his ass in Season 7 is not a good sign. 

Knowing how Sansa's arc plays out over Season 7, it's kind of frustrating that it takes seven episodes for her to do what she already knows she needs to do:

6x10 Sansa: Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. Fuck that guy.

7x01-7x06 Sansa: Maybe I should trust Littlefinger after all???

7x07 Sansa (according to Luka Nieto): Nah, fuck that guy. Bran, use your powers to dig up some dirt on this asshole so I can get rid of him for good.

It almost seems like a plot cooked up to give Sansa and Arya something to do until Jon gets back. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Off the top of my head, Shireen and Melisandre's conversation in 4x02, which seemed random and filler-y at the time and a lot less random with the full knowledge in hindsight of Shireen's end. Things like that.

 

Yeah, Meera apparently ditching his ass in Season 7 is not a good sign. 

Knowing how Sansa's arc plays out over Season 7, it's kind of frustrating that it takes seven episodes for her to do what she already knows she needs to do:

6x10 Sansa: Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. Fuck that guy.

7x01-7x06 Sansa: Maybe I should trust Littlefinger after all???

7x07 Sansa (according to Luka Nieto): Nah, fuck that guy. Bran, use your powers to dig up some dirt on this asshole so I can get rid of him for good.

It almost seems like a plot cooked up to give Sansa and Arya something to do until Jon gets back. 

But Luka said she doesn't trust Littlefinger. 

"Sansa already mistrusts Littlefinger and is planning to do him in, because of a few things in particular that take place; and only THEN does Sansa seek Bran’s aid"

So I don't think she trust him at any moment, she's just waiting to do him in. But I agree with you, it's just a (annoying) plot so the girls has something to do until next season.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Edith

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

6x10 Sansa: Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. Fuck that guy.

7x01-7x06 Sansa: Maybe I should trust Littlefinger after all???

7x07 Sansa (according to Luka Nieto): Nah, fuck that guy. Bran, use your powers to dig up some dirt on this asshole so I can get rid of him for good.

It almost seems like a plot cooked up to give Sansa and Arya something to do until Jon gets back. 

I think the 7-01 to 7-06 is Sansa setting herself up to look bad to keep LF confused and slowly thinking he has Sansa, before she and Arya lowers the boom on him.

As far as Karstark and Umbers she (as far as I know )isn't asking for their death just loosing privileges, maybe she or Jon suggest marriages ( like the book ) to endt he mini feud.