Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I don't think Arya would have survived if she had remained in King's Landing, no more than Sansa would have survived everything that Arya did when she left King's Landing.

I think this is a common fallacy regarding Arya. If Arya had been in KL she would have been a political hostage - same as Sansa. Sansa did not survive because she kept her head down and behaved like a lady. She survived because the Lannisters wanted her alive to hold Winterfell in the North. Similarly, this idea that Arya cannot control herself among enemies is also false. She has endured beatings and been threatened with rape. There are several instances in the books, where she holds her tongue and keeps her head down:

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Their captors permitted no chatter. A broken lip taught Arya to hold her tongue. Others never learned at all. One boy of three would not stop calling for his father, so they smashed his face in with a spiked mace. Then the boy’s mother started screaming and Raff the Sweetling killed her as well.

Arya watched them die and did nothing. What good did it do you to be brave? -  Arya, ACoK

 

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“You lot of slugabeds are going to learn what work is now, yes you are.”

Not from you. Arya picked at her oaten cake. Weese frowned at her, as if he smelled her secret. Quickly she dropped her gaze to her food, and dared not raise her eyes again. - Arya, ACoK

We also see with Lady Smallwood that she can behave like a lady if need be.

I just disagree with this notion that Arya would not survive KL if she had been there  - which is why I liken it to tumblr Sansa fanfiction - that's where this notion commonly pops up.

Even on the show, we had Arya's interactions with Tywin to show us that she is not that hot headed and can manage rather well with the Lannisters.

The only difference would be that Arya would be plotting all the time to get out of KL while keeping her head down.

6 hours ago, Edith said:

From EW:

"At least Sansa still has the protection of Brienne, who is forced to unsheathe Oathkeeper more than once this year (and for unpredictable reasons)".

Lads only mentioned the Arya/Brienne one... 

I think we have the least spoilers about Brienne.  I don't think we know yet why she goes to the Dragon pit in the finale...

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Brienne will be forced to unsheathe Oathkeeper more than once this year, for unpredictable reasons. Brienne will continue to fulfill her oath in totally unexpected ways. Everyone’s going to go mad when they see this season, Gwendoline Christie says.

Edited May 29, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, anamika said:

I think we have the least spoilers about Brienne.  I don't think we know yet why she goes to the Dragon pit in the finale...

I thought that according to the Lads Sansa sends Brienne in her stead to represent the north at the dragonpit meeting. Not sure why the north needs to be represented if Jon is already there, but I thought that's what Lads1 said.

[Edith]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I thought that according to the Lads Sansa sends Brienne in her stead to represent the north at the dragonpit meeting. Not sure why the north needs to be represented if Jon is already there, but I thought that's what Lads1 said.

Lads2

"Brienne leaves Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing to represent Sansa at the Dragonpit meeting. (this happens after Sansa gets a Raven from Kings Landing asking her to join the meeting requested by Dany and Jon)."  
 

Lads1

[PM to farmatwnzwwn]: [About Brienne at the Dragonpit]:"You know what. You're absolutely right. I forgot she was there. I've just checked and Sansa sends her on her behalf to represent the interests of Winterfell, which I think is because she isn't entirely convinced that Jon is thinking about The North. She agrees to go because she knows Jaime will be there, so she believes she will be safe - she believes him to be an honorable man."  

Edited May 29, 2017 by Edith

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Edith said:

Lads2

"Brienne leaves Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing to represent Sansa at the Dragonpit meeting. (this happens after Sansa gets a Raven from Kings Landing asking her to join the meeting requested by Dany and Jon)."  
 

Lads1

[PM to farmatwnzwwn]: [About Brienne at the Dragonpit]:"You know what. You're absolutely right. I forgot she was there. I've just checked and Sansa sends her on her behalf to represent the interests of Winterfell, which I think is because she isn't entirely convinced that Jon is thinking about The North. She agrees to go because she knows Jaime will be there, so she believes she will be safe - she believes him to be an honorable man."  

I'm more inclined to think it's because she is wary of Cersei and Davos isn't a fighter. Jon also has a tendency of not totally heeding Sansa's warnings on people, she lived some time there.

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Edith said:

which I think is because she isn't entirely convinced that Jon is thinking about The North.

Isn't he trying to save the north which is directly in the path of the NK? He's not allying with Dany and going to capture a wight after how well Hardhome went for him, and going to KL for shits and giggles. I think it says a lot about how almost everyone might be taking the threat of the WW.

Edited May 29, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Raachel2008]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's not as clear in the show, but in the books at least, Arya's failures in the lady department when compared to Sansa are a source of great shame and resentment to her. One of the very first bits of Arya's first POV is her mentally complaining at length about how much better Sansa is at being a lady than Arya, with a description of her skills, talents, and beauty.

I know it is in the books, but that doesn't count, right? It was never on screen. Show Arya never cared about being a lady and make sure to tell her father being a lady it was not what who she was. So, for me, to make Arya say something like that to Sansa is a disservice to Arya and rewriting history.

13 hours ago, anamika said:

I just disagree with this notion that Arya would not survive KL if she had been there  - which is why I liken it to tumblr Sansa fanfiction - that's where this notion commonly pops up.

Even on the show, we had Arya's interactions with Tywin to show us that she is not that hot headed and can manage rather well with the Lannisters.

The only difference would be that Arya would be plotting all the time to get out of KL while keeping her head down.

This.  Born and bred in the depths of Tumbler, and spread to the entire fandom. Arya would have survived, period.

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think it says a lot about how almost everyone might be taking the threat of the WW.

I think it says a lot about Sansa.

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, Edith said:

Lads2

"Brienne leaves Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing to represent Sansa at the Dragonpit meeting. (this happens after Sansa gets a Raven from Kings Landing asking her to join the meeting requested by Dany and Jon)."  
 

Lads1

[PM to farmatwnzwwn]: [About Brienne at the Dragonpit]:"You know what. You're absolutely right. I forgot she was there. I've just checked and Sansa sends her on her behalf to represent the interests of Winterfell, which I think is because she isn't entirely convinced that Jon is thinking about The North. She agrees to go because she knows Jaime will be there, so she believes she will be safe - she believes him to be an honorable man."  

It's not clear between these two whether Sansa is summoned and sends Brienne in her stead (according to Lads2) or whether she sends Brienne on her own initiative because she doesn't trust Jon (according to Lads1).

 

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I know it is in the books, but that doesn't count, right? It was never on screen. Show Arya never cared about being a lady and make sure to tell her father being a lady it was not what who she was. So, for me, to make Arya say something like that to Sansa is a disservice to Arya and rewriting history.

She doesn't express the same resentment or shame that she does in the books, but TV Arya is keenly aware that she's a failure as a lady.

Gendry: So you're a highborn, then. You're a lady!
Arya: No. I mean, yes. My mother was a lady, and my sister, but--

This is of course a reference to the books, where says a very similar line after looking at her scabs and ragged clothes, and in the books Arya finishes that same line "but I never was." In the show, Gendry cuts her off.

 

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This.  Born and bred in the depths of Tumbler, and spread to the entire fandom. Arya would have survived, period.

I think the notion "Arya and Sansa never would have survived in the other's place" long predates Tumblr ASOIAF fandom. 

With that said, I do agree that Arya would have survived KL. She learned very quickly at Harrenhal to keep her head down, and she would have been kept alive at any rate as a valuable hostage just as Sansa was.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

With that said, I do agree that Arya would have survived KL. She learned very quickly at Harrenhal to keep her head down, and she would have been kept alive at any rate as a valuable hostage just as Sansa was.

In general, I agree with this sentiment.  She wouldn't been able to do the sorts of courtesy stuff that Sansa does, but she would have been able to keep her mouth shut.

If there's one area where I would have been concerned about Arya's survival in KL, it's not specifically due to her behaviour, it's that she'd have been at the mercy of Joffrey.  It's weird to recall that the two have no scenes together after the Kingsroad incident, but when you consider how much Joffrey hates Sansa seemingly because she just witnessed this event, he must hate Arya far more.  She would have been Joffrey's primary punching bag (or, rather, his knights' punching bag), and without any of the injunctions to keep her face looking nice.  That could easily have done pretty serious damage to her (just as it could have to Sansa, though it didn't since the narrative requires Sansa to still be alive).

[whateverdgaf]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

In general, I agree with this sentiment.  She wouldn't been able to do the sorts of courtesy stuff that Sansa does, but she would have been able to keep her mouth shut.

If there's one area where I would have been concerned about Arya's survival in KL, it's not specifically due to her behaviour, it's that she'd have been at the mercy of Joffrey.  It's weird to recall that the two have no scenes together after the Kingsroad incident, but when you consider how much Joffrey hates Sansa seemingly because she just witnessed this event, he must hate Arya far more.  She would have been Joffrey's primary punching bag (or, rather, his knights' punching bag), and without any of the injunctions to keep her face looking nice.  That could easily have done pretty serious damage to her (just as it could have to Sansa, though it didn't since the narrative requires Sansa to still be alive).

I'm not sure that Arya would have coped as well in King's Landing as she did in Harrenhal. Unlike Sansa, she had friends she could genuinely trust and a degree of power from Jaqen that Sansa lacked. Also she had the satisfaction of getting one over Lord Tywin. 

I think when people say that Arya could not have survived King's Landing is that emotionally, the powerlessness and isolation would be too much for her. 

[anamika]

14 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I'm not sure that Arya would have coped as well in King's Landing as she did in Harrenhal. Unlike Sansa, she had friends she could genuinely trust and a degree of power from Jaqen that Sansa lacked. Also she had the satisfaction of getting one over Lord Tywin. 

I think when people say that Arya could not have survived King's Landing is that emotionally, the powerlessness and isolation would be too much for her. 

The thing is Arya manages to find friends wherever she goes. To quote Sansa in the books:

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Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody.

Who is to say that Arya would not be able to find friends she trusted who helped her in KL? Jaqen helped her because she helped Jaqen.  And sure, maybe the Hound and LF may not help Arya like they help Sansa, but I think Tyrion would have tried to protect her from Joffrey.

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think the notion "Arya and Sansa never would have survived in the other's place" long predates Tumblr ASOIAF fandom.

It would come up in the old Sansa/Arya discussion threads at Westeros.org all the time and be refuted with facts from the books  - that's why it's annoying to see it as actual dialogue on the show.  Next Season Bran will probably praise Sansa and tell her that she's better than him at ruling and deserves to be Wardeness of the North.

On 5/29/2017 at 7:35 AM, Edith said:

Lads2

this happens after Sansa gets a Raven from Kings Landing asking her to join the meeting requested by Dany and Jon

Lads1

Sansa sends her on her behalf to represent the interests of Winterfell, which I think is because she isn't entirely convinced that Jon is thinking about The North.

This seems slightly contradictory? In one scenario it looks like Dany/Jon requests Sansa to be there, in the other it looks like Sansa sends Brienne to keep an eye on Jon and any deal he makes.

In either case, with Sansa representing Winterfell, they do seem to be making the case that the KITN does not control Winterfell on the show. I wonder if we will see a similar scenario in the books where KITN seems to be closely tied to being Lord of Winterfell because of Robb's will, or if it gets split there as well. There was that one time that Catelyn wanted Robb to name one of her Vale cousins as his heir and future KITN instead of Jon.

On 5/27/2017 at 9:22 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Everyone also seems to have forgotten that Jon's original battle plan (let's attack even though we're outnumbered and outgunned!) would have gotten everyone on his side killed without a Littlefinger ex machina he knew nothing about.  Is this really the man you'd want devising any sort of battle strategy?

I don't disagree that the show has made Jon out to be an idiot unfit to be any kind of leader. Even next season, he apparently needs Sansa's wisdom to rule even though according to spoilers he disagrees with her on everything.

Edited May 30, 2017 by anamika

[Edith]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

 This seems slightly contradictory? In one scenario it looks like Dany/Jon requests Sansa to be there, in the other it looks like Sansa sends Brienne to keep an eye on Jon and any deal he makes.

Well there are a few contradictions between Lads1 and Lads2, that is why a lot of people didn't believe him the first time:

Lads1 said - Jon comes to comfort Dany in her cabin, she mourns Viserion and he pledges himself to her. Then  lads2 said Dany comes to Jon's cabin while he's in the bed naked, Jon promises to kneel but he's in bed naked.

Lads1 said that team Dany is going to Eastwacht while Lads2 said that team Dany is going to White Harbor, the Unsullied to Eastwacht and dothraki are going to take the Kings road.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

The thing is Arya manages to find friends wherever she goes. To quote Sansa in the books:

Who is to say that Arya would not be able to find friends she trusted who helped her in KL? Jaqen helped her because she helped Jaqen.  And sure, maybe the Hound and LF may not help Arya like they help Sansa, but I think Tyrion would have tried to protect her from Joffrey.

I agree. 

 

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I'm not sure that Arya would have coped as well in King's Landing as she did in Harrenhal. Unlike Sansa, she had friends she could genuinely trust and a degree of power from Jaqen that Sansa lacked. Also she had the satisfaction of getting one over Lord Tywin. 

It's not as if Book Sansa had no help or no one she believed she could trust in KL, either. She did have several helpers in KL, most of whom she subjectively did trust at the time to have good intentions or at the very least not to hurt her: the Hound offered her good advice on how to deal with Joffrey (smile and obey) and saved her life during the riot, Margaery was kind to her and spent time with her up until the wedding, Dontos offered an escape plan and met with her secretly on a regular basis to offer her emotional support and give her hope, Garlan comforted her at her wedding, etc. Now, we the readers could easily tell that most of these helpers had their own agendas for Sansa and weren't helping her out of the goodness of their hearts, but she didn't know that in most cases until well after the fact.

Arya may have had more genuine friends at Harrenhal without ulterior motives, but it's simply not true to state that Sansa had no one helping her and no one she believed she could trust. All told, I'd say Sansa had far more helpers in KL she trusted than Arya did at Harrenhal. Arya, blessed with abilities Sansa lacks--charisma, an extroverted nature, and a talent for making friends wherever she goes (which we also see in Braavos, where she rapidly ingratiates herself with everybody, from whores to sailors to merchants)--would likely have had far more success than Sansa did in KL when it came to obtaining the aid of people who were objectively trustworthy and loyal to her first and foremost.

 

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 Next Season Bran will probably praise Sansa and tell her that she's better than him at ruling and deserves to be Wardeness of the North.

Judging from the leaks and the "Dr. Branhattan" crack, it sounds as if Bran will be completely checked out of ruling and will have no interest in being Lord of Winterfell...which conveniently clears the way for Sansa and Arya to clash over ruling, since if Bran were truly invested in the title I'm guessing Sansa and Arya would both defer to him. Of course, we can't have Sansa and Arya getting along just yet, therefore Bran takes himself out of the running, Sansa remains Lady of Winterfell and Arya chafes under her leadership, because Drama.

This seems supported by a lack of any suggestion in the leaks that LF is concerned about Bran's presence at Winterfell undermining Sansa's authority, even though he is by rights Lord of Winterfell. Bran must be sufficiently spaced out upon his return that LF doesn't see Bran as any kind of threat to Sansa's power and instead zeroes in on Arya. That would be a bizarre choice, given Bran coming ahead of Sansa in succession by rights, unless of course Bran is so out of it that no one would see him as a viable choice for Lord of Winterfell.

I also noticed that Bran's new outfit as shown in the EW scans seems to be flowing dark robes reminiscent of the 3ER, as opposed to the Season 6 oufit of the type that the male Northern nobles wear: leather tunic with cap sleeves over long sleeves, leather skirt over pants. (Arya and Lyanna Mormont wear a feminine version of this same outfit in Season 7.) I'm guessing that's a deliberate visual hint that he's moving away from his role as a "lord" towards being the 3ER, i.e. someone whose primary role is as a master of magic and esoteric knowledge.

 

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This seems slightly contradictory? In one scenario it looks like Dany/Jon requests Sansa to be there, in the other it looks like Sansa sends Brienne to keep an eye on Jon and any deal he makes.

These explanations do contradict each other. Lads1 seemed pretty foggy on Brienne overall--initially he claimed that Brienne stays at Winterfell all season--so Lads2's account is more likely to be the correct one.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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I think when people say that Arya could not have survived King's Landing is that emotionally, the powerlessness and isolation would be too much for her. 

Eh. I don't think she would have made it through the targeted malice.  She would have killed Joffrey or been killed in the attempt when word got around that Ned's Stark's head was on a pike at the Castle Wall.  By COK Sansa was getting beaten in regular intervals by her first chapter (this being downplayed or nixed in the show) and greeted with every slander in the book in reference to Ned, her family and The North in general.  I don't recall Arya having to deal with that kind of atmosphere in Harrenhal (again not a story thread I was especially interested in.  Did she have to deal with consistent disparagement about Ned, The Starks and The North in general?)  As was pointed out, if Cersei is to be believed, part of Joffrey's sadistic fixation on Sansa is because she was a witness to his humiliation at the Trident.  If Arya had been at Court, the ACTUAL butterfly would have been there for him to pick the wings off of.

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"Brienne leaves Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing to represent Sansa at the Dragonpit meeting. (this happens after Sansa gets a Raven from Kings Landing asking her to join the meeting requested by Dany and Jon)."  

A Raven to come to Kings Landing?!?!?!?!? LMAO. Oh Sansa, please hatch schemes of your own, for your own benefit.  Whatever else, Sansa still has a survival instinct.  After hearing what Cersei did to the Tyrells and The Royal Court at The Great Sept, she'd have to be out of her mind to go to Kings Landing while Cersei is in power.   At this point, I think the only thing that could get Sansa to flee the North is if she's running from the Otherpocalypse.

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Eh. I don't think she would have made it through the targeted malice.  

Arya made it through Harrenhal, where she was going through worse than anything Sansa went through in KL. I think you underestimate her.

 

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She would have killed Joffrey or been killed in the attempt when word got around that Ned's Stark's head was on a pike at the Castle Wall.

Arya learned at Harrenhal very quickly to keep her mouth shut and her head down to avoid the fate of others, who were getting killed for crying too much or making too much of a fuss. If she survived at Harrenhal long enough to figure out a way to escape, she would have survived Joffrey.

 

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 By COK Sansa was getting beaten in regular intervals by her first chapter (this being downplayed or nixed in the show) and greeted with every slander in the book in reference to Ned, her family and The North in general. I don't recall Arya having to deal with that kind of atmosphere in Harrenhal (again not a story thread I was especially interested in.  

If she could put up with watching children being murdered for crying and women being raped around her, I'm confident she could put up with her family being slandered.

 

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As was pointed out, if Cersei is to be believed, part of Joffrey's sadistic fixation on Sansa is because she was a witness to his humiliation at the Trident.  If Arya had been at Court, the ACTUAL butterfly would have been there for him to pick the wings off of.

There were obvious limits to what Joffrey could have done to Arya as a hostage, just as there were obvious limits to what he did do to Sansa. I don't find the argument that Arya would have been treated much worse than Sansa persuasive. She might have been hit in the face, something Sansa was spared, but that's about the end of it. Any permanent mutilation would have been off the torture menu for Arya just as it was for Sansa.

Also, Arya would have figured out the need to feign meekness for Joffrey's benefit without needing someone else to explain it to her as Sansa did; Arya has always been a quicker study than Sansa. 
 

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A Raven to come to Kings Landing?!?!?!?!? LMAO. Oh Sansa, please hatch schemes of your own, for your own benefit.  Whatever else, Sansa still has a survival instinct.  After hearing what Cersei did to the Tyrells and The Royal Court at The Great Sept, she'd have to be out of her mind to go to Kings Landing while Cersei is in power.   At this point, I think the only thing that could get Sansa to flee the North is if she's running from the Otherpocalypse.

I'm sort of wondering who would be stupid enough to try to summon Sansa to KL with Cersei still alive and in power. The only candidates who would order that raven to be sent are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, and Jon and Tyrion would surely know better. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Judging from the leaks and the "Dr. Branhattan" crack, it sounds as if Bran will be completely checked out of ruling and will have no interest in being Lord of Winterfell...which conveniently clears the way for Sansa and Arya to clash over ruling, since if Bran were truly invested in the title I'm guessing Sansa and Arya would both defer to him. Of course, we can't have Sansa and Arya getting along just yet, therefore Bran takes himself out of the running, Sansa remains Lady of Winterfell and Arya chafes under her leadership, because Drama.

This seems supported by a lack of any suggestion in the leaks that LF is concerned about Bran's presence at Winterfell undermining Sansa's authority, even though he is by rights Lord of Winterfell. Bran must be sufficiently spaced out upon his return that LF doesn't see Bran as any kind of threat to Sansa's power and instead zeroes in on Arya. That would be a bizarre choice, given Bran coming ahead of Sansa in succession by rights, unless of course Bran is so out of it that no one would see him as a viable choice for Lord of Winterfell.

I also noticed that Bran's new outfit as shown in the EW scans seems to be flowing dark robes reminiscent of the 3ER, as opposed to the Season 6 oufit of the type that the male Northern nobles wear: leather tunic with cap sleeves over long sleeves, leather skirt over pants. (Arya and Lyanna Mormont wear a feminine version of this same outfit in Season 7.) I'm guessing that's a deliberate visual hint that he's moving away from his role as a "lord" towards being the 3ER, i.e. someone whose primary role is as a master of magic and esoteric knowledge.

I've been wondering if the EW photos aren't hinting at Bran's personality as well.  On one level it feels weird since those photos are clearly not meant to be "in character" for the most part, but you've got Isaac looking stiff and grim in every single shot, whereas the other three all have big smiles on in the photos other than the actual cover images.

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Arya, blessed with abilities Sansa lacks--charisma, an extroverted nature, and a talent for making friends wherever she goes (which we also see in Braavos, where she rapidly ingratiates herself with everybody, from whores to sailors to merchants)--would likely have had far more success than Sansa did in KL when it came to obtaining the aid of people who were objectively trustworthy and loyal to her first and foremost.

I think Arya would have had the same problem Sansa did, namely, the lack of such people.  There isn't anybody in court looking to do the Starks a favour, just people out to use them for their own benefit (arguably the most agenda-free assistance Sansa got was from the Hound, who Arya, for obvious reasons, loathes).

There's been a longstanding debate in fandom about whether Sansa is an introvert or an extrovert, but I'd she's meant to be the latter; she's written as thriving in social settings, e.g., when she gets to the Gates of the Moon.  She's just more conscious of social class than Arya, which necessarily limits the scope of who she interacts with.

Edited May 30, 2017 by SeanC

[anamika]

Arya had to sit through children being tortured and murdered in front of her and kept silent.  She has endured beatings that left her bleeding, she has starved, worked till her hands were raw and would have been killed at the smallest misstep on her part.

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When Weese found that she hadn’t asked about the clothes, he yanked down her breeches and caned her until blood ran down her thighs…

He snatched the sword from her fingers, and dealt her a stinging slap with the back of his hand. “Next time be quicker about it.” … Weese’s slap took it all away and left her with nothing but the taste of her own blood in her mouth. She’d bitten her tongue when he hit her. She hated him for that…

What Arya goes through in the books is rather harrowing. That's why I feel it's insulting to the character for her to say to Sansa that she would not be able to survive what Sansa went through or that she would never be as good as Sansa.  Besides as mentioned above, there was not much Joffrey could have done to Arya seeing how she would have been a valuable political hostage. Both Tyrion and Tywin would have made sure that Arya was not damaged too much.

But you know who did impulsively try to attack Joffrey in both the show and the books?

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All it would take was a shove, she told herself. He was standing right there, right there, smirking at her with those fat wormlips. You could do it, she told herself. You could. Do it right now. It wouldn't even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn't matter at all.

"Here, girl." Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

Thank God for the Hound preventing Sansa from doing stupid things.

18 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I think Arya would have had the same problem Sansa did, namely, the lack of such people.  There isn't anybody in court looking to do the Starks a favour, just people out to use them for their own benefit (arguably the most agenda-free assistance Sansa got was from the Hound, who Arya, for obvious reasons, loathes).

Arya probably would have befriended the people not at court - like Mycah, the butcher's boy or the maids who helped her dress, the servants etc. They would have been more trustworthy and more useful in plotting an escape. Sansa's problem was that she did not deign to speak to these people and hence had to settle for the folks in court who continued to use her as a pawn.

Edited May 30, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

Arya probably would have befriended the people not at court - like Mycah, the butcher's boy or the maids who helped her dress, the servants etc. They would have been more trustworthy and more useful in plotting an escape. Sansa's problem was that she did not deign to speak to these people and hence had to settle for the folks in court who continued to use her as a pawn.

Not true.  In the books, Cersei has Sansa's attendants rotated every two weeks specifically to prevent her from befriending any of them (Sansa notes this).  In the show, Sansa did befriend Shae, since show!Cersei apparently didn't do anything about said attendants, though all the other attendants appear to have been spies anyway.  Arya wouldn't have been allowed to go around talking to whomever she wants, anymore than Sansa was (and if she did, whoever she spoke with would have fallen under immediate suspicion from all the people whose job it is to prevent escapes).

The whole point of the Red Keep is that it's a (rather anachronistic) police state where the only safe place to carry on conversations free of monitoring is the godswood (or if you turn the music up really loud, as Olenna does).

Edited May 30, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

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There's been a longstanding debate in fandom about whether Sansa is an introvert or an extrovert, but I'd she's meant to be the latter; she's written as thriving in social settings, e.g., when she gets to the Gates of the Moon.  

I have yet to see any equivalent to Arya's laundry list of all the friends she has made and specific information about them in any of Sansa's POV passages, like this passage:

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Cat had made friends along the wharves; porters and mummers, ropemakers and sailmenders, taverners, brewers and bakers and beggars and whores. They bought clams and cockles from her, told her true tales of Braavos and lies about their lives, and laughed at the way she talked when she tried to speak Braavosi. She never let that trouble her. Instead, she showed them all the fig, and told them they were camel cunts, which made them roar with laughter. Gyloro Dothare taught her filthy songs, and his brother Gyleno told her the best places to catch eels. The mummers off the Ship showed her how a hero stands, and taught her speeches from The Song of the Rhoyne, The Conqueror's Two Wives, and The Merchant's Lusty Lady. Quill, the sad-eyed little man who made up all the bawdy farces for the Ship, offered to teach her how a woman kisses, but Tagganaro smacked him with a codfish and put an end to that. Cossomo the Conjurer instructed her in sleight of hand. He could swallow mice and pull them from her ears. "It's magic," he'd say. "It's not," Cat said. "The mouse was up your sleeve the whole time. I could see it moving."

This is an extrovert. Arya is genuinely interested in other people, and thrives off their energy. She knows everything about everyone, she knows all the good gossip, and everyone not only finds her charming but also comes to rely and depend on her. 

Sansa, on the other hand, doesn't seem particularly interested in other people, even though she's capable of going through the motions as she does at the PW when she pretends to care about Lancel's recovery (despite hating Lancel). She's quite focused on herself. She'll gladly accept others' kindnesses and overtures for friendship, such as Myranda's, when offered, particularly when it's coming from people she considers up to her standards in the lady department (beautiful, gentle, clever noblewomen like Margaery and Myrcella), but she won't go out of her way to reach out to other people, even when it's relatively safe to do so as in the Vale. Myranda approaches her--likely with an agenda as with Margaery--not the other way around. Arya on the other hand reaches out reflexively and people instinctively reach out to Arya as well.

I don't think it's a coincidence or circumstance that Arya manages to make good friends wherever she goes, even in dangerous environments full of people of dubious or non-existent trustworthiness, and Sansa can't. It's not KL or the Vale to blame for Sansa's lack of genuine friends; it's her own character and her own choices. Introverts don't usually make many good friends, rather one or two close friends, and Sansa is no exception.

 

30 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not true.  In the books, Cersei has Sansa's attendants rotated every two weeks specifically to prevent her from befriending any of them (Sansa notes this).  In the show, Sansa did befriend Shae (since show!Cersei apparently didn't do anything about said attendants, though all the other attendants appear to have been spies anyway).

There are many people working in the Red Keep other than Sansa's maids, though, and even Sansa managed to evade her spies to meet with Dontos on a regular basis throughout ACOK and ASOS. If Sansa managed to pull that off, the more clever and more competent Arya could easily sneak off to befriend servants and the like. She befriended Jaqen at Harrenhal and orchestrated an escape under everyone's noses.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I have yet to see any equivalent to Arya's laundry list of all the friends she has made and specific information about them in any of Sansa's POV passages, like this passage:

To cite one:

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Margaery's kindness had been unfailing, and her presence changed everything. Her ladies welcomed Sansa as well. It had been so long since she had enjoyed the company of other women, she had almost forgotten how pleasant it could be. Lady Leonette gave her lessons on the high harp, and Lady Janna shared all the choice gossip. Merry Crane always had an amusing story, and little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce.

Closest to Sansa's own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. "Roses from lower on the bush," quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls.

This is one of the rare occasions in the story where Sansa is in a position to interact with a group of peers who might actually be friendly (though it turns out they aren't, really), and she dives into it.

Likewise, at the ball in TWOW she has a grand time, and thrives on interacting with everyone.  She's also friendly with Mya, the only other identified girl apart from Myranda.  Her isolation for much of the story is entirely the product of circumstances that make it unsafe or impossible to reach out.

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There are many people working in the Red Keep other than Sansa's maids, though, and even Sansa managed to evade her spies to meet with Dontos on a regular basis throughout ACOK and ASOS. If Sansa managed to pull that off, the more clever and more calculating Arya could easily sneak off to befriend servants and the like. She befriended Jaqen at Harrenhal and orchestrated an escape under everyone's noses.

Nobody in Harrenhal particularly cared whether a servant interacted with one of the soldiers; interactions of that nature would have been a regular occurrence.  This isn't to take anything away from Arya's obvious skill, but it's a totally different environment.  Sansa's meeting with Dontos came about because he was already sympathetic (or, as we later learned, paid to be sympathetic) -- the problem is how to get somebody to that point.  Arya wouldn't be able to sneak around in the middle of the night trying to befriend servants, that would only be possible with somebody already on her side.

Edited May 30, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

To cite one:

This is one of the rare occasions in the story where Sansa is in a position to interact with a group of peers who might actually be friendly (though it turns out they aren't, really), and she dives into it.

The passage you cited is more of a superficial description of the members of Margaery's entourage of the type that we get throughout the books (X was tall with a beaky nose, Y was squat with pockmarked cheeks, Z was bald as a goose egg, blah blah blah). It's not an indication of anything other than Sansa enjoying pleasant, intimate chats when offered (which is something that would be true of both extroverts and introverts) or describing the people with whom she's interacting.

This Sansa passage seems very meager compared to the passage I cited of Arya's laundry list of friends, and such Arya passages occur at several instances in the books, like here when Arya thinks fondly about all the friends she made as Cat, even the scuzzy ones:

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She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. 

Also, as I said, Sansa does not reach out to others to become friends, merely accepts their overtures, and she seems incapable of gaining others' loyalty or genuine friendship, unlike Arya, who gains others' loyalty and friendship as easily as breathing.

Sansa's only "friends" over the course of the series other than Jeyne Poole--whom Sansa got kicked out of her room because her crying annoyed Sansa, so we can probably put "friend" in quotations around Jeyne as well--are those who have approached her on their initiative, with their own agenda, not because she reached out to them or sought their friendship, and not because she inspired any warm sentiments in them. (Even her new BFF Myranda looks to be gearing up to throw her under the bus out of some combination of jealousy, spite and political calculation in TWOW.) I think that's very telling. Arya on the other hand has people constantly up in her shit telling her everything they know, looking to her for leadership, looking to her for guidance, teaching her valuable skills, and she loves it that way. I think that's very telling, too. 

 

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She's also friendly with Mya, the only other identified girl apart from Myranda.

She's polite to Mya, but Sansa is polite to most people. There's no indication of a friendship there, nor that Sansa likes Mya or cares about her except as gossip fodder for her musings about Lothor Brune (which is really only vicarious shipping because she lusts after the Hound and sees Brune as a Hound-like figure). Of course, Mya's hardly up to Sansa's standards in the friend department, being tomboyish, poorly groomed and lowborn. To be fair, Mya doesn't seem thrilled with Sansa, either.

As for the ball in TWOW, Sansa goes through the motions as always, but there's no indication that she likes or cares about any of these people beyond performing superficial courtesies, much like Sansa's other social interactions that we see in the books. Arya, on the other hand, forms genuine friendships with many people that are meaningful to her and to them.

 

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Nobody in Harrenhal particularly cared whether a servant interacted with one of the soldiers; interactions of that nature would have been a regular occurrence.  This isn't to take anything away from Arya's obvious skill, but it's a totally different environment.  Sansa's meeting with Dontos came about because he was already sympathetic (or, as we later learned, paid to be sympathetic) -- the problem is how to get somebody to that point.  Arya wouldn't be able to sneak around in the middle of the night trying to befriend servants, that would only be possible with somebody already on her side.

Arya was already a dab hand at getting around undetected in AGOT, not only to the point where she not only managed to eavesdrop on a very sensitive conversation between Varys and Illyrio without Varys ever realizing that she was there, but even to the point that she had trouble even getting people to believe she was Arya! Arya would have had no trouble sneaking around, possibly posing as a servant herself using an alias, and getting someone on her side, with her superior resourcefulness and ability. 

To get back to Season 7 spoilers, because I think this is getting off-topic, I think the narrative of "Arya would have died in KL in Sansa's place," while popular enough, is an insult to the character. However, assuming the script page is authentic and that that dialogue makes it into the show, it wouldn't be the first time the TV writers had gotten Arya wrong.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

But you know who did impulsively try to attack Joffrey in both the show and the books?

Yes Arya ! you forget, Arya stay out of it !

Sansa's wasn't so much as impulse as it was anger .

If Joff listened to Sansa and brought the Hound on their walk maybe, just maybe the clash between Joff and Arya wouldn't had happened.

[Advance35]

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There were obvious limits to what Joffrey could have done to Arya as a hostage, just as there were obvious limits to what he did do to Sansa. I don't find the argument that Arya would have been treated much worse than Sansa persuasive. She might have been hit in the face, something Sansa was spared, but that's about the end of it. Any permanent mutilation would have been off the torture menu for Arya just as it was for Sansa.

Also, Arya would have figured out the need to feign meekness for Joffrey's benefit without needing someone else to explain it to her as Sansa did; Arya has always been a quicker study than Sansa. 

 

Book!wise Cersei was planning on having Arya's arm cut off for striking Joffrey.  Not sure mutilation would have been off the menu in all honesty.  As for Arya feigning meekness. Gotta disagree, but again, I don't care about Arya so I may have some details wrong.

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I'm sort of wondering who would be stupid enough to try to summon Sansa to KL with Cersei still alive and in power. The only candidates who would order that raven to be sent are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, and Jon and Tyrion would surely know better. 

I'd believe it of Jon.  If it's not the Otherpocalypse, I don't think he's very worried about it.  As demonstrated by his war with Ramsay, he has know personal experience with certain players, so he underestimates just how depraved they are.   I guess Cersei is actually out of Wildfire, if she wasn't, surely she would use it to take out Dany and her subjects at the parley.

[OhOkayWhat]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

It would come up in the old Sansa/Arya discussion threads at Westeros.org all the time and be refuted with facts from the books  - that's why it's annoying to see it as actual dialogue on the show.

A character saying something (even if it is about herself/himself) doesn't make it necessarily the truth.

Edited May 30, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I'd believe it of Jon.  If it's not the Otherpocalypse, I don't think he's very worried about it.  As demonstrated by his war with Ramsay, he has know personal experience with certain players, so he underestimates just how depraved they are.   I guess Cersei is actually out of Wildfire, if she wasn't, surely she would use it to take out Dany and her subjects at the parley.

Whatever his feelings about Cersei, I think Jon would know Sansa well enough to know that she would never agree to go south, particularly since she has told him that she regrets leaving Winterfell and since she apparently tells him in 7x01 that she believes Cersei is an even bigger threat than the WW.

One thing I am curious in light of the leaks is that Lads2 said that Bran tells Sansa LF's crimes offscreen, and that she enumerates these crimes before sentencing him to death. The only two crimes Lads2 specifically mentioned were betraying Ned and sending the assassin to kill Bran, but I'm wondering what else might be thrown in there, if anything, in terms of things Sansa wouldn't have known prior to speaking to Bran. 

[OhOkayWhat]

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

it wouldn't be the first time the TV writers had gotten Arya wrong.

It is kinda difficult to remember any case they got Show!Arya wrong (wrong= the character does not make narrative sense)

[Raachel2008]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Next Season Bran will probably praise Sansa and tell her that she's better than him at ruling and deserves to be Wardeness of the North.

Of course.

Look, the thing with the whole Arya x Sansa  while discussing what we see on screen is that D&D think they can ignore book stuff for six seasons and then choose what suits them at the moment. Show Arya never gave any indication she wanted to be a lady, or that her reason to want to be something else is because she couldn't be like Sansa or Cat.  The show narrative stablished very early - episodes 1 and 2 of season 1 - that Arya is herself, she is not molding herself after someone else or because she is not someone else. To imply so late in the show, literally when we are heading towards the end of the series, something different is an insult the character. 

Same goes for the whole Arya wouldn't have survived KL. It is an insult to Arya and a glorification of Sansa the martyr, because the same narrative that sentences Arya to failure never acknowledges that Sansa would have much more trouble surviving what Arya did. Sansa doesn't have Arya fighting skills, or extrovert personality or even the appearance to pass for a boy. Yet, this is largely ignored. I happen to think both would have survived. Sure it would demanded they had adapted - and that the story demanded - but they would.

So, I hate those spoilers, I hope they play different on screen, and I will largely ignore them until they shall pass.

Brienne, RE: I was under the impression that she doesn't do much this season, other than going to KL to meet Jon, Dany, and maybe a brief encounter with Jamie, all the while maybe learning to trust Davos, Jon, etc. I wonder if she will have a bigger arc next season, assuming she will fight the WW with Jamie.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Eyes High]

Posted on Instagram: a picture that looks like a Season 7 still. It's Sansa seated at a table at Winterfell. I think she's in the great hall at Winterfell, in the same scene as the bit from the Season 7 trailer in the same location. The dress she's wearing has a similar cut and similar accessories to the one in the EW spread, but it's a different fabric. (The horizontal pattern is different from the flayed man pattern in the other dress. It's very similar to the pattern on the bust on the black dress from late Season 4.)

It seems like it's a fan account, so I have no idea where they got the picture from. 

In other news, HBO just updated the 7x01 count from 58 minutes to 59 minutes.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

It'll be interesting to see what Sansa wears in season 8, after season 7 resolves her Stark loyalty plotline, since the black and metallic elements of her new dresses have a Littlefinger/Bolton/Mad Queen Cersei vibe that's quite different from the earlier examples of Northern dresses.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

It'll be interesting to see what Sansa wears in season 8, after season 7 resolves her Stark loyalty plotline, since the black and metallic elements of her new dresses have a Littlefinger/Bolton/Mad Queen Cersei vibe that's quite different from the earlier examples of Northern dresses.

There are glimpses of her Stark allegiance in the two dresses we've seen--the wolf pins (?) and the shoulder cuffs (which seems to be largely a Stark thing)--but the LF/Bolton influence comes through loud and clear: the dress in the still has a similar pattern to the Season 4 black dress, the EW dress has a flayed man pattern, and the metal loop and chain is back. (Also, the black/silver colour pattern evokes both Team Dany and Team Cersei.) She also seems to be the only one of the remaining Starks without any brown in her costumes. It makes her look "colder" than her siblings.

The Season 7 dresses seem like a more marked departure from the previous season's dresses than usual. It's a shame, because embroidery bib aside, I quite liked the colour and texture of the fabric used for the blue dress. Oh, well. Maybe Season 8 brings something more interesting wardrobe-wise, although it looks like Sansa will be stuck wearing black along with most of the cast. I guess she could incorporate touches of brown into her dresses, to align her visually with her siblings and "warm" her up a little. Michele Clapton loves to use colour as a tool to show the major characters' evolution, and Sansa has never worn brown before. 

I would love to see Sansa wearing a version of the outfit both Lyanna Mormont and Arya seem to be wearing in Season 7: tunic with shoulder cuffs, long sleeves, split skirt over long pants and boots (pretty much a feminine version of the Northern lord outfit). Make it a leather tunic, and it doesn't get much more Stark than that, since that's how Ned, Jon, Bran and Arya dressed/dress. Seems very unlikely, though.

ETA: A /Freefolk poster found a better-quality pic.

Looking at the closeup, I realized that the horizontal pattern--complete with feathers--is definitely the same pattern as the bust on the Season 4 black dress. 

I also realized that the direwolf pins aren't really pins: they're the end pieces of a smaller version of the Northern stiff collars that Catelyn used to wear, except instead of being embroidered, this collar is covered in little black feathers, and it doesn't have a long scarf attached.

Other news: James Hibberd at EW reports that Season 7 will not have supersized episodes for the most part. However, the exception will be the Season 7 finale, which will clock in at "well over an hour."

Other other news: HBO has released some new stills, of which the Sansa pic is one. The other two are pics of Arya and Dany, although they seem to be from the same scenes as the first batch of stills. Pics are at WOTW.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The Season 7 dresses seem like a more marked departure from the previous season's dresses than usual. It's a shame, because embroidery bib aside, I quite liked the colour and texture of the fabric used for the blue dress. Oh, well. Maybe Season 8 brings something more interesting wardrobe-wise, although it looks like Sansa will be stuck wearing black along with most of the cast.

I hope the showrunners get to name the final episode A Dream of Spring (potentially more controversial than naming an episode TWOW since when that was announced practically everyone still expected TWOW to be published). After all the dark colours, furs and lack of skin in season 7, that would be a perfect opportunity to bring back a bit of colour into the costumes and visually announce that winter is over. And since I'm now ready to predict a Jon/Dany marriage as the most likely endgame solution to the war for the throne, I admit that I'm already anticipating the wedding dress.

Going back to the earlier discussion, Dr. Branhattan does seem like something that would make possible for both him and Sansa to survive: he offers mystical guidance but she's acknowledged as the Lady of Winterfell and takes care of the practical business of ruling. If Sansa recites Littlefinger's crimes, she might not care to mention his participation in Joffrey's murder but she already knows about the murders of Lysa and Jon Arryn: with Bran's addition of the assassination attempt and the betrayal of Ned, that's four major crimes that would make both Northern and Vale lords glad to see him go.

[GrailKing]

On 5/30/2017 at 4:21 PM, Eyes High said:

There are glimpses of her Stark allegiance in the two dresses we've seen--the wolf pins (?) and the shoulder cuffs (which seems to be largely a Stark thing)--but the LF/Bolton influence comes through loud and clear: the dress in the still has a similar pattern to the Season 4 black dress, the EW dress has a flayed man pattern, and the metal loop and chain is back. (Also, the black/silver colour pattern evokes both Team Dany and Team Cersei.) She also seems to be the only one of the remaining Starks without any brown in her costumes. It makes her look "colder" than her siblings.

The Season 7 dresses seem like a more marked departure from the previous season's dresses than usual. It's a shame, because embroidery bib aside, I quite liked the colour and texture of the fabric used for the blue dress. Oh, well. Maybe Season 8 brings something more interesting wardrobe-wise, although it looks like Sansa will be stuck wearing black along with most of the cast. I guess she could incorporate touches of brown into her dresses, to align her visually with her siblings and "warm" her up a little. Michele Clapton loves to use colour as a tool to show the major characters' evolution, and Sansa has never worn brown before. 

I would love to see Sansa wearing a version of the outfit both Lyanna Mormont and Arya seem to be wearing in Season 7: tunic with shoulder cuffs, long sleeves, split skirt over long pants and boots (pretty much a feminine version of the Northern lord outfit). Make it a leather tunic, and it doesn't get much more Stark than that, since that's how Ned, Jon, Bran and Arya dressed/dress. Seems very unlikely, though.

ETA: A /Freefolk poster found a better-quality pic.

Looking at the closeup, I realized that the horizontal pattern--complete with feathers--is definitely the same pattern as the bust on the Season 4 black dress. 

I also realized that the direwolf pins aren't really pins: they're the end pieces of a smaller version of the Northern stiff collars that Catelyn used to wear, except instead of being embroidered, this collar is covered in little black feathers, and it doesn't have a long scarf attached.

Other news: James Hibberd at EW reports that Season 7 will not have supersized episodes for the most part. However, the exception will be the Season 7 finale, which will clock in at "well over an hour."

Other other news: HBO has released some new stills, of which the Sansa pic is one. The other two are pics of Arya and Dany, although they seem to be from the same scenes as the first batch of stills. Pics are at WOTW.

I'm inclined to think her costume this year is bringing her closer to a Stark of the past; cold,hard and pragmatic.

Just like in other seasons especially after season 1 her lineage is hidden in the patterns and the jewelry has meaning.

In the recent photos we see her Stark with the pins, I think we have scales and feathers don't know if the feathers are for Arryn, Baleish or the North .

Sansa's circle could mean unity and or protection and Sansa's needle treads through it.

The flayed men motif as someone else in Reddit or WOTW mentioned it could be Sansa's symbolically wearing the Bolton skins as a sign of the Starks beating them.

I do miss and hope we see more Blue Roses motif on her, I wasn't excited with the bib design but, I did love the Wolf and Blue Roses on it.

[Eyes High]

On 5/31/2017 at 5:00 AM, ElizaD said:

I hope the showrunners get to name the final episode A Dream of Spring (potentially more controversial than naming an episode TWOW since when that was announced practically everyone still expected TWOW to be published). After all the dark colours, furs and lack of skin in season 7, that would be a perfect opportunity to bring back a bit of colour into the costumes and visually announce that winter is over. And since I'm now ready to predict a Jon/Dany marriage as the most likely endgame solution to the war for the throne, I admit that I'm already anticipating the wedding dress.

The alleged script page with a Jon/Dany conversation seemed to hint at Jon impregnating Dany, so their wedding may be a shotgun wedding rather than a particularly grand affair.

I agree that an explosion of colour in the costumes would be a good way to announce the end of winter.

10 hours ago, GrailKing said:

In the recent photos we see her Stark with the pins, I think we have scales and feathers don't know if the feathers are for Arryn, Baleish or the North .

There are no scales. The horizontal feather pattern is a visual repetition of the bust from her Mockingbird dress in Season 4, which has the same pattern. The better version of the new Sansa pic from 7x01 makes it clear.

[Clawdette]

Were either Lads1 or Lads2 the source of the Jon-is-brought-back-again-from-the-dead rumor?  Or was that from some whack-a-doodle?

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

Were either Lads1 or Lads2 the source of the Jon-is-brought-back-again-from-the-dead rumor?  Or was that from some whack-a-doodle?

Neither of them said anything about that.

[Spartan Girl]

Still stunned that the Jon/Dany hookup is actually going to happen. I don't know how to feel. On one hand, awesome. On the other...it's technically incest. Yes, I know this happens all the time on this show, but still.

If they ever find out Jon is Dany's nephew, would it really change anything? Dany's a Targaryen, so she probably would consider it a huge dealbreaker. And Jon has never known his biological family, so it might not bug him either...

Sometimes this show gives me a headache.

[Eyes High]

7x02's runtime is apparently 59 minutes, just like 7x01.

New article promoting GOT Season 7. Harington is described by the article as "handsome but short." Ha!

Emilia on S7 Dany:

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Dany is exploring every avenue that her kind of bloodline has been to. People have an idea of what her father was and everyone has vague idea what her brother was.

"She knows what those things are but it could be very easy for her to do something very rash."

 

I'm guessing she's alluding to the ambush and/or taking the dragons to rescue Jon when the wight hunt mission goes off the rails.

Kit on S7 Jon:

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I think that season seven starts with optimism," he adds. "I mean, the world's f****** ending and he's in real danger, but at least he's in a place where people will listen to him when he's warning them, and he can get right down to business. 

Sophie on S7 Sansa:

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"She's less sympathetic towards the other characters - she's in it for herself and she'll do anything to get what she wants at this point.
"I think she definitely feels left out, with Jon being King of the North. There's a little bit of jealousy there and she feels as though she deserves the title of Queen of the North. She also feels like it's an injustice that she hasn't been recognised for what she did for all of the northerners and also that Jon isn't recognising that either.
"I think if Jon was really appreciative of what she's done and spoke to her about it, she wouldn't have a problem with all the northern Lords not bowing down to her and hailing her Queen of the North. I think all she wants is the respect of her brother and I don't think she feels like she's getting that."

Of course, Sophie did another interview where she claimed that Sansa was family-obsessed and family-oriented (so the opposite of being selfish and unsympathetic towards others), and Kit did an interview where he said that Jon would listen to Sansa more this season, so who knows?

Come to think of it, there's a lot about what Sansa is up to in the middle of Season 7 that we really don't know anything about. For 7x03 through about 7x06, all we know is 1) Bran letting Sansa know he knows what happened with Ramsay, 2) Sansa and LF watching Arya and Brienne spar, 3) Sansa and Arya getting into some kind of argument over ruling which leads to some sort of rift that LF is happy to exploit, and 4) Sansa sending Brienne south. It could be that Sansa takes a backseat in Season 7 to other plots as we know many other characters do, but Sophie makes it sound as if Sansa has some sort of overarching agenda or plan in Season 7, and there's nothing in the spoilers about that. I'm not really sure what Sophie is alluding to when she says that Sansa will do anything to get what she wants.

We also know very little about what LF's up to in Season 7 other than sneaking around trying to mess with Arya. What's his plan (if any)? What's he going to do in Jon's absence (if anything)? I keep thinking there has to be more to it than pitting Arya and Sansa against each other, but maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit.

[nikma]

S8 maybe won't air until 2019. 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/06/02/game-of-thrones-prequel-final-season-interview/

 

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So as of now, the final season could air in 2018 and/or in 2019 depending on their needs? 

Yeah. They have to write the episodes and figure out the production schedule. We’ll have a better sense of that once they get further into the writing.

Edited June 2, 2017 by nikma

[anamika]

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It's girl power all the way in the seventh series of Game of Thrones according to the cast members who filmed their final scenes in Belfast's Titanic Studios and the Linen Mill studios in Banbridge.

Not this shit again. I thought we were done with the girl power stuff in season 6. It's not fun or entertaining to watch the male characters get screwed over in terms of writing and development because D and D think that they are some crusaders for female empowerment.

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I think if Jon was really appreciative of what she's done and spoke to her about it, she wouldn't have a problem with all the northern Lords not bowing down to her and hailing her Queen of the North.

This is getting tiresome. Jon did thank her and credit her with the victory. What more does she want? Him sitting at her feet all hangdog. I hope there's more justification for her actions next season other than Jon not thanking her. We already been through this badly written narrative last season.

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It could be that Sansa takes a backseat in Season 7 to other plots as we know many other characters do,

I think the Winterfell plot will take a back seat. Not much going on there. Jon-Sansa argue for the first two episodes. Arya-Bran-Sansa reunions for the next two. Say 10 minutes each in the next 3 episodes for the WF plot, that's half an hour to resolve the Arya-Sansa feud and settle the LF business.  LF can't do anything else at this point. I think that these guys did the least amount of filming. Sam also gets there towards the end? And he and Bran have some scenes regarding the Rhaegar- Lyanna reveal?

Edited June 2, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Not this shit again. I thought we were done with the girl power stuff in season 6. It's not fun or entertaining to watch the male characters get screwed over in terms of writing and development because D and D think that they are some crusaders for female empowerment.

Got to say that I didn't notice any "female empowerment" in the first five years or in season six when most of the female characters (major and minor) were being constantly raped, sexually exploited, prostituted, traded by their families to attain power, objectified, and violently attacked, murdered, and/or imprisoned by various male characters. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by SimoneS

[Edith]

New spoilers from WOTW: 

Toronto Sun details a scene for episode two with the entire Targaryen faction. If you followed the production closely, you may have feared as I did that we were never going to get to see all of Dany’s loyalists together in a room… and I’m quite happy to be wrong about that: around Dragonstone‘s famous map table room, discussing “the best way to pry King’s Landing from Cersei Lannister’s grip,” there were Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Missandei, Theon and Yara Greyjoy, Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell.

The newspaper was privy to another scene of a similar political nature, though this one was from the premiere, and set not in the ancient Targaryen stronghold but up north in Winterfell. Present in the banquet hall where Jon Snow was proclaimed king in the North there was, of course, the king himself, Jon Snow, as well as Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth, Davos Seaworth, Lyanna Mormont, and Tormund Giantsbane —the king, his noble sister and her protector, his foremost adviser, a precocious bannerwoman, and a representative of the Free Folk. In the scene, they discuss the imminent threat of the White Walkers and what to do about it. Jon Snow insists they need to start mining obsidian, the only material known to kill White Walkers besides Valyrian steel: “Dragonglass kills White Walkers, and it’s now more valuable than gold.”

As for the third scene, Tilley wasn’t a direct witness, yet it may be the most intriguing of them all. Instead of seeing a scene being performed, he saw a prop being sculpted. How is that intriguing or exciting in any way? Well, it was a massive dragon skull… one out of 40 differently-sized dragon skulls. How does a dragon graveyard fit into season seven? We have no idea, but the Toronto Sun was told by the craftsmen they had to actually sculpt them all instead of doing them digitally because they would all be involved in an action sequence —there would be people running around (and perhaps on) the skulls.

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-7-scenes-detailed-set-visit-spoilers/#more-145027

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Edith said:

New spoilers from WOTW: 

Toronto Sun details a scene for episode two with the entire Targaryen faction. If you followed the production closely, you may have feared as I did that we were never going to get to see all of Dany’s loyalists together in a room… and I’m quite happy to be wrong about that: around Dragonstone‘s famous map table room, discussing “the best way to pry King’s Landing from Cersei Lannister’s grip,” there were Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Missandei, Theon and Yara Greyjoy, Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell.

I wonder if Tyrion will have any reaction to Ellaria Sand given that she poisoned his niece and all (unless of course he hasn't found out about that yet).

 

Quote

The newspaper was privy to another scene of a similar political nature, though this one was from the premiere, and set not in the ancient Targaryen stronghold but up north in Winterfell. Present in the banquet hall where Jon Snow was proclaimed king in the North there was, of course, the king himself, Jon Snow, as well as Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth, Davos Seaworth, Lyanna Mormont, and Tormund Giantsbane —the king, his noble sister and her protector, his foremost adviser, a precocious bannerwoman, and a representative of the Free Folk. In the scene, they discuss the imminent threat of the White Walkers and what to do about it. Jon Snow insists they need to start mining obsidian, the only material known to kill White Walkers besides Valyrian steel: “Dragonglass kills White Walkers, and it’s now more valuable than gold.”

This must be the 7x01 scene shown in the trailer with Alys Karstark and Smallestjon Umber. Pod's not mentioned on the list of characters present, but then neither is Littlefinger.

Quote

As for the third scene, Tilley wasn’t a direct witness, yet it may be the most intriguing of them all. Instead of seeing a scene being performed, he saw a prop being sculpted. How is that intriguing or exciting in any way? Well, it was a massive dragon skull… one out of 40 differently-sized dragon skulls. How does a dragon graveyard fit into season seven? We have no idea, but the Toronto Sun was told by the craftsmen they had to actually sculpt them all instead of doing them digitally because they would all be involved in an action sequence —there would be people running around (and perhaps on) the skulls.

Action sequence? The only action we heard about at the dragonpit involved the wight getting unleashed and being chopped up. Hmm.

The Toronto Sun article also mentioned some new Season 7-specific sets: Cersei's private bedchamber, a dungeon with a cell door, the interior of an Ironborn ship, Sam and Gilly's bedroom at Oldtown, Dany's Dragonstone throne room, and Cersei's map room.

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This must be the 7x01 scene shown in the trailer with Alys Karstark and Smallestjon Umber. Pod's not mentioned on the list of characters present, but then neither is Littlefinger.

I am curious about Pod, we've heard very little about what's going on with him. I'm kind of worried about him.

[Eyes High]

Just now, whateverdgaf said:

I am curious about Pod, we've heard very little about what's going on with him. I'm kind of worried about him.

I think Daniel Portman filmed at the Dragonpit scene along with everyone else, so I wouldn't worry too much.

[Advance35]

Whoa.  I didn't think we would see Olenna Tyrell outside of Highgarden.  I always wanted to see her meet up with both Littlefinger and Sansa again but I can live with Tyrion (this especially considering how getting mixed up with House Lannister has destroyed her life) and hopefully more Varys.  I have to imagine it's a special kind of bitter to have to help Dany get the throne considering House Tyrell had worked so hard to scheme Margaery into being Queen.   Although, maybe she's just consumed with pursuing death for Cersei and isn't all that reflective.  I just hope we get a scene that tells us where her head is during this whole thing.  She's the smartest person in Dragonstone but probably for the first time in her life, she's not interested in game playing.  I'd also like to see Olenna have a scene with Randyll Tarly but understand the producers might be pressed for time.

I have know doubt that this seasons headliners will be Dany/Jon and all things Otherpocalypse but I think the show runners know they will need something to break up the tedium (for those of us that joined this franchise for the political aspects.)  I assume Cersei, Jaimie, Euron, Sansa and Littlefinger will all have scenes centered on Dynastic security or lack thereof.

[anamika]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Got to say that I didn't notice any "female empowerment" in the first five years or in season six when most of the female characters (major and minor) were being constantly raped, sexual exploited, prostituted, traded by their families to attain power, objectified, and violently attacked, murdered, and/or imprisoned by all various male characters. 

I wonder why people watch this show when most of the female characters are constantly getting raped and murdered by all male characters for six seasons. Sounds ghastly.

7 hours ago, nikma said:

S8 maybe won't air until 2019. 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/06/02/game-of-thrones-prequel-final-season-interview/

2019? Two years to film 6 episodes? It's going to be massive. Maybe TWoW will be out before then.

Edited June 3, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I wonder why people watch this show when most of the female characters are constantly getting raped and murdered by all male characters for six seasons. Sounds ghastly.

I can only speculate since millions of people watch GOT. However, maybe some of those people view the show differently than people the who watch the show despite proclaiming "I thought we were done with the girl power stuff in season 6. It's not fun or entertaining to watch the male characters get screwed over in terms of writing and development because D and D think that they are some crusaders for female empowerment." 

I think the show is entertaining despite how women are portrayed at times and that there is some good with the bad. I certainly don't see any evidence that the show is a testament to "female empowerment." However, I do definitely support female empowerment the rare times that it occurs (only when used for good though) since women are mostly powerless on the show.

Edited June 3, 2017 by SimoneS

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please limit the discussion in here to Season 7 spec and spoilers and not the audience, or personal viewing preferences.

Thanks.

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Whoa.  I didn't think we would see Olenna Tyrell outside of Highgarden.  I always wanted to see her meet up with both Littlefinger and Sansa again but I can live with Tyrion (this especially considering how getting mixed up with House Lannister has destroyed her life) and hopefully more Varys.  I have to imagine it's a special kind of bitter to have to help Dany get the throne considering House Tyrell had worked so hard to scheme Margaery into being Queen.   Although, maybe she's just consumed with pursuing death for Cersei and isn't all that reflective.  I just hope we get a scene that tells us where her head is during this whole thing.  She's the smartest person in Dragonstone but probably for the first time in her life, she's not interested in game playing.  I'd also like to see Olenna have a scene with Randyll Tarly but understand the producers might be pressed for time.

I have know doubt that this seasons headliners will be Dany/Jon and all things Otherpocalypse but I think the show runners know they will need something to break up the tedium (for those of us that joined this franchise for the political aspects.)  I assume Cersei, Jaimie, Euron, Sansa and Littlefinger will all have scenes centered on Dynastic security or lack thereof.

It's no wonder that Dany gets so desperate that she launches the ambush on Jaime in 7x04, since she goes from meeting with all her allies in 7x02 to 1) losing her Ironborn and Dornish allies and their ships to Euron's attack in 7x02, 2) losing the Tyrell forces to the Lannisters in 7x03 and 3) gaining Casterly Rock only to realize that they can't hold it.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Despite a recent mod note directive not to do so; discussion of audience and viewers continued, along with past seasons discussion - resulting in a number of posts being removed. This topic is to discuss season 7 spec and spoilers only. Further violations will result in warnings being issued.

[Eyes High]

Episode minute counts so far:

7x01: 59 minutes (revised upward from the initial count of 58)

7x02: 59 minutes

7x03: 63 minutes

This is the list of page counts per episode script, according to Lads2:

Episode 1: 59 pages
Episode 2: 56 pages
Episode 3: 60 pages
Episode 4: 49 pages
Episode 5: 58 pages
Episode 6: 61 pages
Episode 7: 74 pages

7x04 looks like it might be leaner and meaner, clocking in at only 49 script pages, but we also know that Episode 4 has a lot of action during the ambush, so on the whole it might work out to being a longer episode than 49 minutes.

The interesting part is that we know that 7x06 also has a big action set piece, but the script still clocks in at 61 pages, so 7x06 could work out to be a longer than average episode as well.

We know that the finale will apparently be "well over an hour." Going by the minute-per-script-page, the episode should be around an hour and 15 minutes (75 minutes).

Edited June 5, 2017 by Eyes High