Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WindyNights]

19 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm wondering if the Volunqour (sp?) will be the pregnancy. 

It won't be. The Valonquar prophecy is about her little brother strangling her to death. 

She survives her pregnancy 

[Edith]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm wondering if the Volunqour (sp?) will be the pregnancy. 

Lads said she doesn't die. She's going to betray Team Dany and send Euron to hire the GC, if she does die at the end of the season then all that built up is for nothing.  

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

From what we know, the tension in Season 7's Winterfell arc revolves around whether Sansa will be able to choose her family over Littlefinger and get rid of him once and for all, or whether she'll ultimately side with Littlefinger against her family. Kitting her out in a dress that resembles the one she wore when she consciously teamed up with Littlefinger the first time around (the mockingbird dress) and which also seems to have the Bolton flayed man "X" sigils in the print, and which also lacks prominent Stark sigil imagery like her Season 6 dress (which had embroidery showing a direwolf), I'm guessing, is intended to heighten that tension and play up that ambiguity. Has she been permanently corrupted by Littlefinger, or not? I think the costuming is intended to make us wonder.

...The dress is still hideous, though.

The dress does have two direwolves in the top.

Also didn't Lads said that Sansa was more harsh/vindictive at the beginning of the season? Maybe that's the Ramsay part that is in her.

[Eyes High]

43 minutes ago, Edith said:

The dress does have two direwolves in the top

They're barely visible, as opposed to the unmissable wolf embroidery from last season. I didn't even notice them at first.

 

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Also didn't Lads said that Sansa was more harsh/vindictive at the beginning of the season? Maybe that's the Ramsay part that is in her.

Lads thought that Sansa's stance towards Alys Karstark and the Umber heir came across as vindictive. She wants to strip them of their lands and give them to Stark loyalists like Lyanna Mormont as punishment for Karstark and Umber's actions, whereas Jon puts his foot down and refuses. You'd think Sansa of all people, having been repeatedly abused by Joffrey for her supposed crime of being a traitor's daughter and the sister of a man waging a campaign against the Lannisters, would find abhorrent the idea of innocent children being forced to suffer for the sins of their relatives, but nope!

Jon and Sansa also get into an argument over priorities in 7x01; Jon thinks the NK is the most pressing enemy, while Sansa thinks he should be more worried about Cersei and is upset that Jon seems dismissive of her. Later in the episode, Sansa is in a sour mood while watching Tormund and Brienne interact in the Winterfell courtyard. (Tormund is apparently telling Brienne all about his bear ladyfriend.)

Lads said that Jon and Sansa have a few scenes together discussing (and apparently disagreeing on) how the North should be ruled at the beginning of the season, but it's not clear whether there are more scenes other than the ones Lads described in detail which I've mentioned. Sansa is pissed at Jon taking off for Dragonstone in 7x02 but is mollified when he leaves her in charge in his absence. Jon apparently leaves at the end of 7x02 (which is probably where that Season 7 promo picture of Jon on horseback in the Winterfell courtyard is from).

There was a cute article about Kit Harington with various quotes from cast and D&D posted on WOTW a few days ago. Apparently, Tormund wasn't just teasing; Jon having a small dick is canon. (Sorry, Dany.) I guess D&D wanted to put a chink in Jon's armour of good looks and perfect hair, hee.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please keep discussion civil. Opposing viewpoints are welcome but not those which also disparage or mock the views of others.  How something is written is as important as what is written.

[domina89]

29 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Then there’s all the other ways in which the romantic subplot comes across as contrived as hell. Starting with Jon and Dany only interacting four times before they fall madly in love.

I got the impression from the leaked plot and images that Jon and Dany would be spending a great deal of time together- most of the season in fact- not just four interactions.  It's impossible to know how it will play out based on the leaks alone, but if their interactions are meaningful and the chemistry is good, I think it could be believable that they could fall in love quickly.  Romance is definitely new territory for the GoT writers (unless you count the Jaime/Brienne slow burn, of course), so I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Edited May 26, 2017 by domina89

[Edith]

44 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Barely visible, as opposed to the unmissable wolf embroidery from last season. I didn't even notice them at first.

Lads thought that Sansa's stance towards Alys Karstark and the Umber heir came across as vindictive. She wants to strip them of their lands and give them to Stark loyalists like Lyanna Mormont as punishment for Karstark and Umber's actions, whereas Jon puts his foot down and refuses.

You'd think Sansa of all people, having been repeatedly abused by Joffrey for her great crime of being a traitor's daughter and the sister of a man waging a campaign against the Lannisters, would find abhorrent the idea of innocent children being forced to suffer for the sins of their relatives, but nope!

Jon and Sansa also get into an argument over priorities in 7x01; Jon thinks the NK is the most pressing enemy, while Sansa thinks he should be more worried about Cersei and is upset that Jon seems dismissive of her. Later in the episode, Sansa is in a sour mood while watching Tormund and Brienne interact in the Winterfell courtyard. (Tormund is apparently telling Brienne all about his bear ladyfriend.)

Lads said that Jon and Sansa have a few scenes together discussing (and apparently disagreeing on) how the North should be ruled at the beginning of the season, but it's not clear whether there are more scenes other than the ones Lads described in detail which I've mentioned.

Well the whole thing is whether she's going to betray Jon and side with Littlefinger or if she's going to be a true Stark. I guess a big direwolf in her dress would spoil that (annoying) storyline! 

Sansa and a lot of the nothern lords, including Lyanna, wants to do that. In fact, Lads points out that what Jon decides isn't the Northern way, and he says he doesn't care, it's his way.

If Sansa wanted to physically and mentally torture the kids, then I would called her an hypocrite but stripping the lands of the traitors/losing side is pretty much in the 101 of how it worked in that time. In fact I remember there were a lot of fans asking for Jon to do that and give Last Hearth to the Wildlings/Tormund. 

"Sansa isn't in a good mood at this point after having an argument with Jon over who the more pressing enemy is - he thinks the Night King obviously, but she wants him to not forget about Cersei. Sansa thinks Jon is being too dismissive of her."

He's going to risk his live to convince her. That affair causes a bunch of Wildlings/BWB dead and a dragon! A dragon that is then use to bring down the wall, and Cersei is going to betray him. Not only he doesn't get the Lannister troops but also she's going to hire the GC.

On top of that Jon is going to pledges to Dany in the Dragonpit causing to wind up Cersei. So is safe to say that Jon is going to be very dismissive of her.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Edith

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I got the impression from the leaked plot and images that Jon and Dany would be spending a great deal of time together- most of the season in fact- not just four interactions.  It's impossible to know how it will play out based on the leaks alone, but if their interactions are meaningful and the chemistry is good, I think it could be believable that they could fall in love quickly.  Romance is definitely new territory for the GoT writers (unless you count the Jaime/Brienne slow burn, of course), so I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

From the leaks, I get the impression that Jon and Dany spend quite a bit of time together over the five back episodes of Season 7. Apparently, even as Jorah returns to Dany in 7x05, he sees that Dany and Jon are already quite close (since when he first sees them, they're involved in an intimate conversation), and that's after only two episodes. Dany takes her dragons on a desperately reckless suicide mission purely out of concern for Jon (and Jorah, to a lesser extent) in 7x06, and by 7x07, Jon is pledging his loyalty in public and they're banging. 

With Robb and Talisa, they met in 2x04 and got married in 2x10, and Robb only appeared in five episodes in that period. Now, a lot of fans weren't particularly happy at how Robb/Talisa was written, but that pairing went from zero to marriage in five or so episodes, so Jon and Dany going from zero to a bangfest in five episodes with more screentime and a much smaller cast than in Season 2 doesn't seem so crazy to me.

 

8 minutes ago, Edith said:

Well the whole thing is whether she's going to betray Jon and side with Littlefinger or if she's going to be a true Stark. I guess a big direwolf in her dress would spoil that (annoying) storyline! 

Sansa and a lot of the nothern lords, including Lyanna, wants to do that. In fact, Lads points out that what Jon decides isn't the Northern way, and he says he doesn't care, it's his way.

To me, it seems to contrast Sansa's newfound nasty vindictiveness against Jon's magnanimity and superior fitness to lead...which is annoying, because it seems to throw Sansa's characterization under the bus to do so.

 

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Sansa and a lot of the nothern lords, including Lyanna, wants to do that. In fact, Lads points out that what Jon decides isn't the Northern way, and he says he doesn't care, it's his way.

From what Lads said, though, Sansa isn't advocating for this on the basis of tradition and the Northern way. She's doing it out of spite and vindictiveness.

 

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So I think he's going to be dismissive of her. On top of that Jon is going to pledges to Dany in the Dragonpit causing to wind up Cersei. 

I wonder if Cersei will drop her vendetta against Sansa if Jaime tells her that Olenna confessed to Joffrey's murder. Probably not. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

It won't be. The Valonquar prophecy is about her little brother strangling her to death. 

She survives her pregnancy 

It doesn't say her little brother, just younger sibling since Valonquar is gender neutral in Valayrian, his hands are indicating a male, but technically any younger sibling could do.

Tyrion,Jamie, Arya with a face, Sansa (still has the poison net in books ), Euron etc.

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

From the leaks, I get the impression that Jon and Dany spend quite a bit of time together over the five back episodes of Season 7. Apparently, even as Jorah returns to Dany in 7x05, he sees that Dany and Jon are already quite close (since when he first sees them, they're involved in an intimate conversation), and that's after only two episodes. Dany takes her dragons on a desperately reckless suicide mission purely out of concern for Jon (and Jorah, to a lesser extent) in 7x06, and by 7x07, Jon is pledging his loyalty in public and they're banging. 

With Robb and Talisa, they met in 2x04 and got married in 2x10, and Robb only appeared in five episodes in that period. Now, a lot of fans weren't particularly happy at how Robb/Talisa was written, but that pairing went from zero to marriage in five or so episodes, so Jon and Dany going from zero to a bangfest in five episodes with more screentime and a much smaller cast than in Season 2 doesn't seem so crazy to me.

 

To me, it seems to contrast Sansa's newfound nasty vindictiveness against Jon's magnanimity and superior fitness to lead...which is annoying, because it seems to throw Sansa's characterization under the bus to do so.

 

From what Lads said, though, Sansa isn't advocating for this on the basis of tradition and the Northern way. She's doing it out of spite and vindictiveness.

 

I wonder if Cersei will drop her vendetta against Sansa if Jaime tells her that Olenna confessed to Joffrey's murder. Probably not. 

I doubt it.

[shireenbamfatheon]

43 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I got the impression from the leaked plot and images that Jon and Dany would be spending a great deal of time together- most of the season in fact- not just four interactions.  It's impossible to know how it will play out based on the leaks alone, but if their interactions are meaningful and the chemistry is good, I think it could be believable that they could fall in love quickly.  Romance is definitely new territory for the GoT writers (unless you count the Jaime/Brienne slow burn, of course), so I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Episode 3:

[The first meeting between Jon and Daenerys is] "a bit more formal, but I think it'll be made clear from the moment they meet that there's an attraction. She's cold towards him though, and he's very clear about what he wants - help against the WW."

Episode 4: 

"In episode 4 just before she leaves for the ambush he takes her down to the caves below Dragonstone where they are mining Dragonglass."

"He greets her on return from a battle, and she notes that he isn't scared of Drogon, and even pets him. Drogon lets him. She is puzzled by this, it bothers her slightly."

Episode 5:

"Jorah returns to Dany a few minutes into Episode 5, and the first thing he sees is her and Jon standing very close together and talking - I think right away he's aware that she has somewhat of a close relationship with Jon."

(They've already developed a close relationship by this point)

Episode 6:

"At the end of Episode 6 she will check on him after the Wight Hunt nearly kills him, and she is also seeking comfort after losing Viserion. They have an intimate moment, but it's not physical so much as emotional - they are vulnerable around each other."

This is also where Jon gives up his title. In episode 7 they have sex. Obviously, this doesn't necessarily present the full picture, and they might have some of their interactions take place off-screen, but it seems unlikely since both characters are busy with their own stuff. And in case Jon petting Drogon wasn't contrived, there's this bit:

"Jon says he's glad that Ned never caught and killed Jorah. Jorah says he's pretty glad about that too!" 

The man took poachers captive and sold them into slavery in Essos and then spent a decade whining about Ned, and Jon's glad he wasn't punished for his crimes? I'm sure those slaves are too. I guess we're pretending Jorah has never been a slave trader then or that Jon knows nothing about Jorah beyond him being Jeor's disgraced son. I hate sounding so negative, but the amount of fan service and shallowness present in the script has seriously ruined the hype for me. There's zero tension between the "good guys" and they all automatically like each other. Even Tyrion goes from suspecting Dany's mad in one episode, to trying to persuade Jaime to bend the knee to her in the next. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

 

1 hour ago, Edith said:

The dress does have two direwolves in the top

They're barely visible, as opposed to the unmissable wolf embroidery from last season. I didn't even notice them at first.

 

 

Seen them in the pix where they are standing, in the rest the fur is covering them.

[Edith]

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To me, it seems to contrast Sansa's newfound nasty vindictiveness against Jon's magnanimity and superior fitness to lead...which is annoying, because it seems to throw Sansa's characterization under the bus to do so.

 

From what Lads said, though, Sansa isn't advocating for this on the basis of tradition and the Northern way. She's doing it out of spite and vindictiveness.

 

I wonder if Cersei will drop her vendetta against Sansa if Jaime tells her that Olenna confessed to Joffrey's murder. Probably not. 

Then fan favorite Lyanna Mormont would not take anypart of it. Add also the fact that she's not going to be very happy with Jon decision either. 

Of course I expect a lot of hate for Sansa (like always) and people who used to praise Lyanna last season to come out and say "she's just a kid", "she knows nothing", etc.

"Jon and Sansa wil have a few scenes together discussing how the North should be ruled at the start of the season. They disagree - Sansa is definitely the harder of the two."

"But Jon and Sansa have very different ideas about how the children of the traitors should be treated, and shes the one who is for harsh treatment, whereas Jon doesn't believe anyone should suffer for the sins of their father. It's pointed out that this isn't the Northern way, and he says he doesn't care, it's his way."
 

Not mentions the out of spite or vindictiveness in those spoilers. Is it harsh treatment? Sure! But out of spite and never done before? Hell no.

Cersei dropping out her vendetta?! Is Cersei! 

Now that I think about it, is Cersei not going to do or say anything about Littlefinger?  

Edited May 26, 2017 by Edith

[Eyes High]

36 minutes ago, Edith said:

Not mentions the out of spite or vindictiveness in those spoilers.

Lads1 specifically used the word "vindictive" when describing his take on Sansa's behaviour in the Alys/Umber scene, as posted by I think /Kaysen762 or someone else who DMed him. I remember because it came up in the comments of a /Freefolk thread way back in the fall, and a few posters pounced on it. Because it was in the comments of a post as opposed to the post itself, it probably got lost in the mix, because it doesn't show up in the spoiler compilations others have put together. /Kaysen762 tended to post her spoilers in posts as opposed to the comments sections, so the comments likely got lost when others tried to put the spoiler info together.

As for Lyanna siding with Sansa, it's unsurprising that she would given that Lyanna would get lands out of it if Sansa has her way. It sounds from Lads1's description of the scene that Jon is meant to look like the wise leader in the right, while Sansa comes across as the vindictive one.

 

41 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

This is also where Jon gives up his title. In episode 7 they have sex. Obviously, this doesn't necessarily present the full picture, and they might have some of their interactions take place off-screen,

You missed one interaction: Jon and Dany looking at the cave paintings at Dragonstone.

More importantly, you're assuming that Lads1 and Lads2 provided an exhaustive list of their interactions, and we know that that isn't true of other characters. Lads2 in recent months has spoiled a number of scenes Lads1 never even mentioned, so there's likely a lot more "there" there than we know. Emilia Clarke told EW.com that she was shocked at all the dialogue she had to memorize for Season 7. With a diminished cast, even a few episodes in each other's presence will provide multiple opportunities for interaction.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

37 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

"He greets her on return from a battle, and she notes that he isn't scared of Drogon, and even pets him. Drogon lets him. She is puzzled by this, it bothers her slightly."
 

That's episode 5 not 4.

On another note. I don't recall Lads saying anything about Jon being sad for Benjen. I mean I know he's used to seeing family relative dying in front of him (cruel joke..) but he's being trying to find his uncle since season 1 and he doesn't even get a mention? 

I hope there's more...

Edited May 26, 2017 by Edith

[GrailKing]

Everyone anticipates a Arya and Nymeria meet up, I want a call back to Sansa and Lady at Winterfell.

[Edith]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Lads1 specifically used the word "vindictive" when describing his take on Sansa's behaviour in the Alys/Umber scene, as posted by I think /Kaysen762 or someone else who DMed him. I remember because it came up in the comments of a /Freefolk thread way back in the fall, and a few posters pounced on it. Because it was in the comments of a post as opposed to the post itself, it probably got lost in the mix, because it doesn't show up in the spoiler compilations others have put together. /Kaysen762 tended to post her spoilers in posts as opposed to the comments sections, so the comments likely got lost when others tried to put the spoiler info together.

As for Lyanna siding with Sansa, it's unsurprising that she would given that Lyanna would get lands out of it if Sansa has her way. It sounds from Lads1's description of the scene that Jon is meant to look like the wise leader in the right, while Sansa comes across as the vindictive one.

 

You're assuming that Lads1 and Lads2 provided an exhaustive list of their interactions, and we know that that isn't true of other characters. Lads2 in recent months has spoiled a number of scenes Lads1 never even mentioned, so there's likely a lot more "there" there than we know. Emilia Clarke told EW.com that she was shocked at all the dialogue she had to memorize for Season 7. With a diminished cast, even a few episodes in each other's presence will provide multiple opportunities for interaction.

As you say, his take, his opinion. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure a lot of people are going to think this way, specially because is Sansa and we know how much hate she gets.

Then Ned and the rest of the northern lords are also vindictive and wrong, otherwise there would be no mention of this practice being the northern way.

And that is my point. If Sansa was supposed to be so mean and cruel, then no one would support her, especially not Lyanna nor would be any mention of the northern ways.

That Jon comes out being the wiser leader? Sure but what he's doing is new, is a modern mentality not the way things were supposed to be in that time.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Edith

[shireenbamfatheon]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

You missed one interaction: Jon and Dany looking at the cave paintings at Dragonstone.

More importantly, you're assuming that Lads1 and Lads2 provided an exhaustive list of their interactions, and we know that that isn't true of other characters. Lads2 in recent months has spoiled a number of scenes Lads1 never even mentioned, so there's likely a lot more "there" there than we know. Emilia Clarke told EW.com that she was shocked at all the dialogue she had to memorize for Season 7. With a diminished cast, even a few episodes in each other's presence will provide multiple opportunities for interaction.

 

No, I didn't. This is what I wrote.

"In episode 4 just before she leaves for the ambush he takes her down to the caves below Dragonstone where they are mining Dragonglass."

I just didn't feel like writing whole scenes down because I didn't want to take up too much space after having written a too long post. Lads1&2 seem to be the same person and they have a comprehensive list of spoilers sorted by episodes, where the previous information by Lads1 is also included. That's where I found the quotes:

http://green-chili.blogspot.dk/2017/03/got-season-7-episode-guide.html

[Raachel2008]

15 minutes ago, Edith said:

He's going to risk his live to convince her. That affair causes a bunch of Wildlings/BWB dead and a dragon! A dragon that is then use to bring down the wall, and Cersei is going to betray him. Not only he doesn't get the Lannister troops but also she's going to hire the GC.

On top of that Jon is going to pledges to Dany in the Dragonpit causing to wind up Cersei. So is safe to say that Jon is going to be very dismissive of her.

I'm don't get this line of thinking.  The spoilers says that even Jamie, who knows Cersei better than anyone, is surprised when she decides to not send the Lannister troops North after seeing the WW because she wants the Jon/Dany troops to thin the WW numbers (and vice-versa). How is Jon being very dismissive of her if her own brother/lover didn't see this one coming?

Me think Cersei is the one being dismissive of the WW here. 

 

2 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

The man took poachers captive and sold them into slavery in Essos and then spent a decade whining about Ned, and Jon's glad he wasn't punished for his crimes? I'm sure those slaves are too. I guess we're pretending Jorah has never been a slave trader then or that Jon knows nothing about Jorah beyond him being Jeor's disgraced son.

Maybe this is a book x show POV, because show Jorah didn't spend a decade complaining about Ned. Show Jorah always seemed to regret what he did and the pain he caused to others and his father. He never seemed proud or careless about what he did.  If Jon says he is glad Ned didn't kill Jorah, then of course he knows why Jorah left Westeros. My guess is that Jon think Jorah was punished after all - losing his lordship, exile, being a pariah, etc etc etc.

 

36 minutes ago, Edith said:

I don't recall Lads saying anything about Jon being sad for Benjen. I mean I know he's used to seeing family relative dying in front of him (cruel joke..) but he's being trying to find his uncle since season 1 and he doesn't even get a mention? 

Who says he doesn't even get a mention? Just because it wasn't spoiled doesn't mean it isn't there. 

 

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Then fan favorite Lyanna Mormont would not take anypart of it. Add also the fact that she's not going to be very happy with Jon decision. 

Of course I expect a lot of hate for Sansa (like always) and people who used to praise Lyanna last season to come out and say "she's just a kid", "she knows nothing", etc.

Why not? Why wouldn't Lyanna take any part on it? She is the leader of a smaller house, who dismissed powerful Stannis Baratheon and backed up Jon not once, but twice (BoB and KITN) and was right in the end. The kid is 'enttitled' to think she is right and knows better AND deserves better. I'm not surprised to see she taking Sansa's side and I won't be surprised if after Jon explains that children shouldn't be punished for their fathers's act, blah blah blah, she sides with Jon.

And what is the problem with Sansa being vindictive? Sansa went from sitting on the snow, saying to Theon she couldn't take another single step and giving up life for real to Miss War Startegist in two episodes; at least in this case there is a backgournd story - she already fed Ramsey to the dogs. Sansa is capable of that - being vindictive while applying justice, if you want. What I think all those spoilers say is that Sansa had a taste of power and liked it. And she is learning how to be in power.

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

 Lads1&2 seem to be the same person and they have a comprehensive list of spoilers sorted by episodes, where the previous information by Lads1 is also included. That's where I found the quotes:

http://green-chili.blogspot.dk/2017/03/got-season-7-episode-guide.html

It's not comprehensive, though; Lads1 and Lads2 have not provided an exhaustive, scene by scene summary of every single thing that happens. There's a lot that Lads1/Lads2 have glossed over, and while I think all the highlights of the season have been described, there's still a lot we don't know. Lads2 mentioned a few spoilers that had never been mentioned before when the Season 7 promotional pictures came out: what Tormund and Brienne talk about, the LF/Jon scene, etc. As an example, WOTW said that Sansa and Arya get into an argument over ruling, where they take different viewpoints; Lads1/Lads2 said nothing about that. WOTW also provided details about the Iron Bank that Lads1/Lads2 never mentioned. It stands to reason that there's a great deal more that Lads2 knows but hasn't directly mentioned, and that this could include Jon/Dany scenes not already mentioned.

Even assuming you're correct and that there are no more interactions other than those mentioned in the spoilers we already have, which I think is a big assumption to make, I think it's quality and not quantity of scenes that matters. Robb and Talisa went from zero to marriage in five episodes. Dany and Drogo went from rape to romance in three episodes.

 

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And what is the problem with Sansa being vindictive? Sansa went from sitting on the snow, saying to Theon she couldn't take another single step and giving up life for real to Miss War Startegist in two episodes; at least in this case there is a backgournd story - she already fed Ramsey to the dogs.

Desiring revenge against Ramsay was entirely sensible: even Book Sansa, who is favourably compared to other characters for her compassion, suggests giving Harrenhal to Walder Frey when Littlefinger informs her that the castle is cursed, and wished death on Joffrey. Desiring to make a couple of innocent kids suffer by stripping them of their birthright because the ones she really has beef with--their fathers--aren't available to answer for their crimes? There's no two ways about it: that's fucked up. Joffrey took his anger at Robb out on Sansa by having her publicly beaten and humiliated. What Sansa is advocating is even worse, since bruises heal, but the loss of one's lands is a more permanent and damaging injury.

 

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Sansa is capable of that - being vindictive while applying justice, if you want. What I think all those spoilers say is that Sansa had a taste of power and liked it. And she is learning how to be in power.

I don't know. Maybe the lesson from all these little interactions, with Jon being magnanimous and wise while Sansa is petty and self-absorbed, is that Sansa is in fact unfit to hold power. Lads1 made a comment about how Jon doesn't want power and Sansa does. Kit Harington made a wry comment in a recent interview to the effect that maybe Jon should be in charge, because he's the only one who doesn't want power. Some assumed it was a dig at Dany, but it could also be a dig at Sansa's behaviour in Season 7.

As I said, WOTW mentioned that Sansa and Arya get into an argument about ruling later in Season 7. It will be interesting to see whether Sansa's character is once again shown to disadvantage.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[Raachel2008]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There's no two ways about it: that's fucked up.

I didn't say it is not fucked up, just that the foundation, so to speak, is there, differently than Sansa the quitter to Sansa being a war strategist. Sansa was cruel to Ramsay - not that I mind -, she could have killed him fast and clean, end of the story. Yet she chose to be cruel. Same thing with being nasty with the kids. She could demand horses, men serving in Winterfell, part of their crops, etc. But she wants their lands and birthrights.  I think it is a pattern, she is learning how to be a person with power.

[Edith]

49 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm don't get this line of thinking.  The spoilers says that even Jamie, who knows Cersei better than anyone, is surprised when she decides to not send the Lannister troops North after seeing the WW because she wants the Jon/Dany troops to thin the WW numbers (and vice-versa). How is Jon being very dismissive of her if her own brother/lover didn't see this one coming?

Me think Cersei is the one being dismissive of the WW here. 

 

Maybe this is a book x show POV, because show Jorah didn't spend a decade complaining about Ned. Show Jorah always seemed to regret what he did and the pain he caused to others and his father. He never seemed proud or careless about what he did.  If Jon says he is glad Ned didn't kill Jorah, then of course he knows why Jorah left Westeros. My guess is that Jon think Jorah was punished after all - losing his lordship, exile, being a pariah, etc etc etc.

 

Who says he doesn't even get a mention? Just because it wasn't spoiled doesn't mean it isn't there. 

 

Why not? Why wouldn't Lyanna take any part on it? She is the leader of a smaller house, who dismissed powerful Stannis Baratheon and backed up Jon not once, but twice (BoB and KITN) and was right in the end. The kid is 'enttitled' to think she is right and knows better AND deserves better. I'm not surprised to see she taking Sansa's side and I won't be surprised if after Jon explains that children shouldn't be punished for their fathers's act, blah blah blah, she sides with Jon.

And what is the problem with Sansa being vindictive? Sansa went from sitting on the snow, saying to Theon she couldn't take another single step and giving up life for real to Miss War Startegist in two episodes; at least in this case there is a backgournd story - she already fed Ramsey to the dogs. Sansa is capable of that - being vindictive while applying justice, if you want. What I think all those spoilers say is that Sansa had a taste of power and liked it. And she is learning how to be in power.

Obviously Cersei is being dismissive of the WW, and is obvious that it was going to happen.

Jaime is in love/obsessed with her, he has never seen her in bad light (in the show). She burned the Sep down and he's going to stay with her. Clearly Jaime is not the best person to understand Cersei. 

Jon should known better. Even Tyrion and Varys comes out of this in a very bad light. Honestly I think this's just D&D throwing down the characters to fit the plot as BOTB.

About Bejen. I said I hope there's more. Same thing applies to Cersei/Littelfinger. 

It's not only Lyanna but also other nothern lords. And no, she's not happy with Jon decision according to Lads.

And I said it again, according to Lads the show is going to establish that taking the land from the traitors/losers side is The Nothern Way. Doesn't matter that children are involved. Or you really think that when traitors reveals or betray agains the winning side there are no children involved? When Ned took a child as hostage (Theon) to keep his father from rebelling against the crown, did someone said he was cruel, vindictive, etc? Even though he was supposed to kill that child if that happen? No! Because that's the custom in Westeros 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Edith

[Wouter]

On 25/5/2017 at 0:50 AM, SimoneS said:

I just read the script pages. I don't see what is so cringeworthy about them or unexpected, especially Jon and Daenerys. Of course, Jon was going to bend a knee to Daenerys. All the speculation that Jon and Daenerys would be in conflict was always rubbish. What choice does he have? All the lands of the Seven Kingdoms are going to be Daenerys' one way or the other. Submitting to Daenerys' rule is only way that Jon can gain a powerful ally to fight the Night King and his army, gain the power to protect his family, and ensure that he eventually sits on the Iron Throne (not his intent, but clearly the direction that the story has always been going). 

If the scripts are genuine, the most interesting dialogue is Daenerys telling Jon that the dragons are the only children that she will have. This means that she will need an heir when she sits on the Iron Throne and Jon will be the only serious possibility once she finds out that they are related. 

Oh, I am sooo looking forward to Littlefinger's death. Too bad it doesn't seem like he suffers as much as he should.

The trailer confirms much of the leaks we already considered likely, and I agree that an alliance between Jon and Daenerys has been on the cards (in the books) for a long time. But a portion of the fans (already back when there were only books) has disliked Dany for a long time, even predicting her to become one of the main antagonists. Those aren't going to be happy ;)

In the books, Dany believes she won't have children. It's interesting that the show initially glossed over that part but may now make clear this is what Dany believes. Does that lessen the chance that she will turn out to be able to bear children after all (some book readers doubt Miri's prediction/prophecy/curse/whatever will actually hold in the end, like some said the sun already settled in the east, with Quentyn)?

I wonder if Jon's magical resurrection may not have finished his chances to have offspring, as well. There is a vibe in the books that the Targaryen era is coming to an end  - "the last of the dragons".

On 24/5/2017 at 8:30 PM, anamika said:

Way back in season one we had Robert Baratheon talking about how fearsome the Dothraki horde was and how unstoppable they would be if they crossed the narrow sea. It looks like we will be seeing some of that!

Yes, Jaime Vs Dothraki was mentioned as an ambush. But if I remember right it does not go too well for Dany. She then returns to Dragonstone in a bad mood and Jon is able to convince her that the WW are the bigger threat. Or maybe that's the attack on Casterly Rock.

Lads1 originally misremembered that, and later corrected himself. As others have written, it's clear that Dany will score a big win there (even if she and/or Drogon have a narrow escape from Qyburn's surface-to-air weapon). It was big news that she would have the Tarly's executed - with fire - against Tyrion's advice. And that the supplies of Jaime's army/supply caravan will be taken by her forces. She can hardly do that if she loses the battle.  

In the same vein, I think Lads1' interpretation of the Sansa/Jon argument about the lands of the northern traitor houses may be his interpretation and ours may not be necessarily the same after we have watched the actual episode. 

[WearyTraveler]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

There was a cute article about Kit Harington with various quotes from cast and D&D posted on WOTW a few days ago. Apparently, Tormund wasn't just teasing; Jon having a small dick is canon. (Sorry, Dany.) I guess D&D wanted to put a chink in Jon's armour of good looks and perfect hair, hee.

It's not the size of the wave but motion of the ocean, right? Also, if Ygritte can be trusted, he's got other abilities that would more than make up for any sizing issues :D 

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I didn't say it is not fucked up, just that the foundation, so to speak, is there, differently than Sansa the quitter to Sansa being a war strategist. Sansa was cruel to Ramsay - not that I mind -, she could have killed him fast and clean, end of the story. Yet she chose to be cruel. Same thing with being nasty with the kids. She could demand horses, men serving in Winterfell, part of their crops, etc. But she wants their lands and birthrights.  I think it is a pattern, she is learning how to be a person with power.

I guess the argument that some are making here is that there are several kinds of people with power.  There are the Cerseis and the Joffreys, there are the Littlefingers and Varyses, there are the Khals, there are the slavers in Essos, there are the Tywins, there are the Tyrions, there are the Roberts, there are the Stannises, there are the Neds, and so on.  One could argue who is more effective, whose style keeps people in power the longer and all that jazz; but, I think the point the books try to make is that there are "good" people in power and "bad" people in power.  Obviusly I don't mean perfect, but it's clear who the author wants us to root for, and it's not Cersei, or Joffrey or the slavers.  While the "good" guys haven't got many victories, and many have died, they've got some, and the story seems to be leading to an ending where the "good" guys will prevail (I seriously doubt the final book -if it's ever published- will have the White Walkers win).  At the same time, most of the "bad" guys  have been severely punished and many have died a horrible death (or will soon enough).

I think the TV show is also trying to make the same point ("good" triumphs over "evil") although they are going about it in a clunky way, with all their glorification of Tywin, Cersei and Ramsey.  But I'm sure Cersei will lose, in the end, at the hands of the Valonqar (Jaime, IMO), and that Jon/Dany will succeed in defeating the WW, even if they die for the cause.

So, going back to how the Westerosi characters handle being in power and how Sansa, as per the leaks, is doing it, I think the point being made is that Sansa is acting more like Cersei/Joffrey than Tywin (who told Joffrey he had to accept the "traitors" back into the fold if they bent the knee), or Ned, or Tyrion (who handsomely rewards support, even when he suspects loyalty might not be there 100%).  It's also a weird choice for the character given her history of being punished for the "sins" of her father and brother, even though she had nothing to do with it.  If we assume that Sansa is an important enough character for D&D to follow (however loosely) George's plan for her, then the turn around of the character, from where she currently is in the books is huge.  I just don't see it.  In the books, I see Sansa learning the game from LF, and learning to play it well, but I don't see her being cruel, or vindictive.  I think she will actually outgrow the master (LF) and kill him, or put in motion events that cause his death, but I don't see book Sansa wanting to strip children of their titles because of their fathers' choices.

D&D's writing for Sansa is completely bipolar and all over the place.  One day she's smart, the next one dumb.  One day she's steely strong, the next she's crying in the snow.  One day she's fine with Jon leading (actually pushes him into it), the next day she feels snubbed because she isn't named Queen in the North... and so on.  They want to have their cake and eat it too with this character, which makes me care less and less about TV Sansa.

Edited May 26, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Edith said:

And that is my point. If Sansa was supposed to be so mean and cruel, then no one would support her, especially not Lyanna nor would be any mention of the northern ways.

That Jon comes out being the wiser leader? Sure but what he's doing is new, is a modern mentality not the way things were supposed to be in that time.

As LF said to Sansa in the Godswoods, you could stay with the old ways or adapt to the new, Ned's honor was new from old Northern trends, Jon not punishing the kids is based on what he lived, Sansa should know this and she has been able to adapt, Starks have always been able to adapt, will Lady Mormont and other houses?.

[anamika]

6 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

So, going back to how the Westerosi characters handle being in power and how Sansa, as per the leaks, is doing it, I think the point being made is that Sansa is acting more like Cersei/Joffrey than Tywin (who told Joffrey he had to accept the "traitors" back into the fold if they bent the knee), or Ned, or Tyrion (who handsomely rewards support, even when he suspects loyalty might not be there 100%).  It's also a weird choice for the character given her history of being punished for the "sins" of her father and brother, even though she had nothing to do with it.  If we assume that Sansa is an important enough character for D&D to follow (however loosely) George's plan for her, then the turn around of the character, from where she currently is in the books is huge.  I just don't see it.  In the books, I see Sansa learning the game from LF, and learning to play it well, but I don't see her being cruel, or vindictive.  I think she will actually outgrow the master (LF) and kill him, or put in motion events that cause his death, but I don't see book Sansa wanting to strip children of their titles because of their fathers' choices.

D&D's writing for Sansa is completely bipolar and all over the place.  One day she's smart, the next one dumb.  One day she's steely strong, the next she's crying in the snow.  One day she's fine with Jon leading (actually pushes him into it), the next day she feels snubbed because she isn't named Queen in the North... and so on.  They want to have their cake and eat it too with this character, which makes me care less and less about TV Sansa.

 

I think the writing for the Winterfell plot is going to be as wacky and nonsensical as last year, where they were trying to say something and we ended up seeing something else. Context and framing matters - Jon and Sansa argue in the tent about Jon not consulting her and Sansa scolds Jon about listening to Davos as opposed to her. These scenes are written and framed as Sansa being right and Jon being wrong even though if we had just read the spoilers we would be baffled at Sansa upbraiding Jon over listening to Davos.

This recent quote is apparently from Kit Harington's TV guide magazine interview:

Quote

Luckily he can turn to his sister Sansa, who's grown wise through her years as a pawn of the powerful. She has knowledge he does not have. He will listen to her more this season

So Sansa is now apparently the wiser of the two, LMAO! Anyways, if the above is true, then the Sansa-Jon-Lyanna-Alys scene will definitely be framed as Sansa being right and Jon being wrong - there's a reason the show has Lyanna siding with Sansa and not Jon. Sophie Turner has also mentioned several times that Sansa knows more than Jon and is better suited to rule. We also have Arya straight up telling her that she is the best like Jon crediting her with the victory last season. These scenes are meant to portray Sansa as being wise player of the game.

And again, I think the writing is not going to match what the actors/showrunners are saying because from the spoilers it looks like Jon does not listen to Sansa? And yet here we have Harington talking about how he would listen to her more because she knows better.

The problem with the Sansa stuff on the show is that it's just badly written and one of the reasons I am not looking forward to the Winterfell plot next season. I am also bored with LF - his character should have died at the end of last season - there is just no point to him anymore - that shot of him in the trailer - he looks like a cartoon villain at this point - the new Ramsay.

Edited May 27, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

Book LF at least had a certain bitchy sense of humour, but TV LF doesn't even have that anymore. The Winterfell plot sounds like a lot of filler-type shuffling around until LF finally gets his comeuppance. Oh, well. At least we'll have the Stark kids interacting again.

As for Sansa, it sounds like Jon overrules her at least three times in the first two episodes of Season 7: he refuses to acknowledge Cersei as the more pressing threat, he refuses to strip the heirs of their lands, and he decides to go south over Sansa's apparent objections. From what we know, he doesn't appear to be listening to her at all. It wouldn't be the first time interviews didn't match up with what was on screen, of course.

[nikma]

 TV LF has a sense of humour. His scene with Lancel in S5 was very funny. 

[YaddaYadda]

The whole Jon/Sansa is just contrived BS at this point. But that's just my opinion. Let's create angst between them, disagreements. The show is circling the drain on this one, and it needs to be done. But I'm not sure they're going to let it die even next season. I don't expect them to get along, because they're different people who have had different experiences, but them disagreeing on pretty much everything under the sun is a tad much. 

That said, Jon's decision regarding Alys and kid Umber reminds me of when she showed up at Castle Black to ask for Jon's help and asked him if there's a blood feud between them. I think that maybe that's what it will come down to in the end. 

[nikma]

Jon and Sansa even after S7 will have less scenes arguing each other than Robb and Cat. I don't understand people who are acting like this is the main focus of the show now. 

In S6 they had more scenes where they are acting nice to each other. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by nikma

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

So Sansa is now apparently the wiser of the two, LMAO!

To be fair in the show both aren't exactly contenders to claim the Tywin Lannister memorial prize for best strategist.  I'd argue that based on what they've done over the past six seasons Sansa should be smarter than Jon when it comes to stuff like this.  At least she got to see some of the maneuvering in King's Landing and the Vale and even saw what happened when Ned tried to do the right thing.  Jon has spent most of his time hanging out with the Night's Watch, who aren't all that big on politics aside from not so subtly telegraphing a murderous coup. 

Everyone also seems to have forgotten that Jon's original battle plan (let's attack even though we're outnumbered and outgunned!) would have gotten everyone on his side killed without a Littlefinger ex machina he knew nothing about.  Is this really the man you'd want devising any sort of battle strategy?

[SeanC]

17 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

So, going back to how the Westerosi characters handle being in power and how Sansa, as per the leaks, is doing it, I think the point being made is that Sansa is acting more like Cersei/Joffrey than Tywin (who told Joffrey he had to accept the "traitors" back into the fold if they bent the knee), or Ned, or Tyrion (who handsomely rewards support, even when he suspects loyalty might not be there 100%).  

On this subject, purely from an intellectual standpoint, I don't think stripping the lands of traitorous families is acting like Cersei or Joffrey.  If Sansa was advocating the kids get physically punished or whatever, that would be bizarre, but the whole feudal contract is based on loyal service; if you've ceased to provide loyal service, you generally lose your stuff.  Moreover, I think it's fair to take the position that Umber Jr., for instance, may not be all that loyal in the future to the people who killed his dad.

Now, as far as what this show wants us to think of the scenario, making the Umber/Karstark heirs kids is obviously tipping the audience in Jon's direction (and Jon's position is valid too, for the record).

However, and I think I posted about this earlier in the thread, I don't get much sense at all from the Lads spoilers that this plot thread goes anywhere.  I'm assuming that the audience is meant to agree with Jon over Sansa, but none of the news we're given about Sansa's subsequent arc makes it seem like this is developed any further.  There's no more development with either Alys or Umber Jr., so she obviously doesn't learn to appreciate their value or whatever; and the climax of the season is her ordering the execution of Littlefinger, which the audience will be obviously be rooting for far more than her earlier stance, but the two things don't really have anything to do with each other.  So if there's a "Sansa reconsiders her attitude toward mercy" story in there anywhere, I don't see it.

[Eyes High]

42 minutes ago, SeanC said:

However, and I think I posted about this earlier in the thread, I don't get much sense at all from the Lads spoilers that this plot thread goes anywhere.  I'm assuming that the audience is meant to agree with Jon over Sansa, but none of the news we're given about Sansa's subsequent arc makes it seem like this is developed any further.  There's no more development with either Alys or Umber Jr., so she obviously doesn't learn to appreciate their value or whatever; and the climax of the season is her ordering the execution of Littlefinger, which the audience will be obviously be rooting for far more than her earlier stance, but the two things don't really have anything to do with each other.  So if there's a "Sansa reconsiders her attitude toward mercy" story in there anywhere, I don't see it.

I agree. Nor is there any suggestion that Sansa will ultimately be vindicated in her opinion about the best way to deal with the Karstark and Umber heirs, since we know the actors for the heirs only appear in the one 7x01 scene.

If these numerous disagreements between Sansa and Jon are intended by the writers to show anything, I suppose it's to plant a seed of doubt in the audience's mind about whether or not Sansa will turn on Jon, to fuel the drama when Arya accuses Sansa of wanting to undermine Jon later in the season. Sansa will resolve this tension by proving her loyalty to the Starks and to Jon once and for all by getting rid of Littlefinger, Arya will resolve this tension by finally accepting Sansa's authority as Lady of Winterfell (something WOTW seemed to suggest Arya takes issue with earlier in the season) once and for all, and that will be the end of that.

It's not really surprising that Sansa is still at odds with Jon, though. Sansa spent most of Season 6 arguing with Jon and complaining about his way of doing things. "Why won't you help me take Winterfell?" "Why are you paying any attention to Davos' opinion?" "Why won't you wait to attack until we have more men?" "Why were you ignoring me during the war council?" She even argued with him about taking the Lord's chamber, of all things. They've gotten along like oil and water, so it's not surprising that that would continue into Season 7.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[nikma]

I'm sure lady Karstark and lord Umber will return to S8. They will need those smaller characters to kill off. I think lord Glover will be killed in S8 as well, protecting one of the Starks. That will be a way for him to get some redemption.

 

But when we speak about the Northern plot,  I'm really interested in the context of LF's death scene. I thought it would be a public execution, but it seems that it will be some sort of meeting which Sansa will transform into his execution. Maybe Sansa will tell him that she will declare herself Queen in the North at that meeting?

 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

 

 

Now, as far as what this show wants us to think of the scenario, making the Umber/Karstark heirs kids is obviously tipping the audience in Jon's direction (and Jon's position is valid too, for the record).

 

Yes, but having Lyanna Mormont, who is a fan favorite, agree with Sansa means that the show doesn't want us to look at that argument sharply divided into black and white. 

I think they want us to discuss that issue, because there are fans who will agree with  Sansa  or with  Jon, and I think there is no right answer there. Both of them have a valid stance . 

Edited May 27, 2017 by nikma

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, nikma said:

Yes, but having Lyanna Mormont, who is a fan favorite, agree with Sansa means that the show doesn't want us to look at that argument sharply divided into black and white. 

I don't think it is meant to be black x white, but experienced x 'unexperienced', thus Lyanna agreeing with Sansa.  I also think the point is not to show that Sansa and Jon have opposite views (duh), but that Sansa, who is learning to be someone with power, wants to be able to make the decisions she wants to make. I imagine this is why she accepts Jon leaving Winterfell to meet Danaerys: because he lets her in charge (not that she could prevent him from heading South, but you know what I mean).

 

On 2017-5-26 at 8:06 PM, WearyTraveler said:

 It's also a weird choice for the character given her history of being punished for the "sins" of her father and brother, even though she had nothing to do with it.

I won't be surprise if we see Jon reminding Sansa that, but we shall see. D&D, like you said want their cake and they want to eat it too with Sansa, so it is hard to care.

[Eyes High]

A poster at /Freefolk has an intriguing theory about the show's choice for TV Rhaegar, who according to leaks makes a brief appearance in a flashback to Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding: a Welsh actor named Wilf Scolding. Their evidence?

1. Aisling Franciosi (Lyanna) started following him on Twitter in late September.

2. Sue the Fury from WOTW is also following him on Twitter.

3. He has the right look: tall (not clear from these shots, but there are others), blonde, and green eyes. Why would green eyes be important? Because both Emilia Clarke (Dany) and Harry Lloyd (Viserys) have green eyes.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's not really surprising that Sansa is still at odds with Jon, though. Sansa spent most of Season 6 arguing with Jon and complaining about his way of doing things. "Why won't you help me take Winterfell?" "Why are you paying any attention to Davos' opinion?" "Why won't you wait to attack until we have more men?" "Why were you ignoring me during the war council?" She even argued with him about taking the Lord's chamber, of all things. They've gotten along like oil and water, so it's not surprising that that would continue into Season 7.

Only time she argues to me is over the size of their army and needing more, she doesn't know Davos to her  he's a southerner with a dubious background, her years around dubious people would put her on guard; she has a valid right to question that.

She stated they needed to take back their home or they will never be safe, she never asked why won't you help, she countered Jons words that he didn't have an army with the Wildings and getting Northerners to help them she was a bit naive and not fully understand Robbs error on the North she believed her dads words about northern honor, not factoring in the cost for the other houses..As for more men again lack of knowledge on the North, now in the tent this is where she should have told Jon about the KOV and LF,. Maybe she did not hear from LF, maybe she couldn't trust he come, but when Umber threw down Shaggy's head she was determined to get those troops, the outcome would not have changed Ramsey was going to drag out Rickon and Jon would have still gone out to save him.

He did ignore her and he admitted that ,and she had actual personal insight on Ramsey, like I said above; at this point she should have told him of the Vale.

This is probably the only valid time they argued and the numbers of men before she sent the letter in the camp.

Sansa at no time argued  with Jon over the Lord's chamber :

"Jon- I'm having the Lord's chamber prepared for you. " " Sansa - Mother and Father's room? You should take it."

"Jon - I'm not a Stark." " Sansa - You are to me.   Jon - Your the Lady of Winterfell, you deserve it, we are standing here because of you; the battle was lost until the Knights of the Vale rode in; they came because of you.  "You told me Lord Balish, sold you to the Boltons" ?

" Sansa - He did. "

" Jon - Do you trust him? "    " Sansa - Only a fool would trust LF, should have told you about him. The Knights of the Vale, I'm sorry."

" Jon - We need to trust each other, we can't fight a war among  ourselves; so many enemies now." A kiss on her forehead, a nod; Jon walks away.

" Sansa -  Jon ! A raven came from the Citadel, a White Raven ; Winter is here. Both crack smiles then : " Jon looks up at the fallen snow with his grin; " well father always promised, didn't he ? " Jon walks away,  Sansa turns smile on her face looks over the ramparts in the direction that Melisandre traveled ; then cut to Dorn .

Edited May 28, 2017 by GrailKing
spelling

[GrailKing]

49 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

A poster at /Freefolk has an intriguing theory about the show's choice for TV Rhaegar, who according to leaks makes a brief appearance in a flashback to Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding: a Welsh actor named Wilf Scolding. Their evidence?

1. Aisling Franciosi (Lyanna) started following him on Twitter in late September.

2. Sue the Fury from WOTW is also following him on Twitter.

3. He has the right look: tall (not clear from these shots, but there are others), blonde, and green eyes. Why would green eyes be important? Because both Emilia Clarke (Dany) and Harry Lloyd (Viserys) have green eyes.

I go with him, or that singer person both look right.

[anamika]

From the EW magazine - Aidan Gillen on Sansa and LF in season 7:

Quote

It’s pretty obvious what my game is there. But at the same time, my character is becoming quite aware that Sansa is becoming as bright as me and wary of my manipulations of her. They use each other. They enjoy each other. They’re onto each other.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

From the EW magazine - Aidan Gillen on Sansa and LF in season 7:

If they followed Sansa's book arc better, the audience would have known she's wary of him from book 1, and LF from at least episode 4.

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I go with him, or that singer person both look right.

Wilf Scolding also lists his natural accent as RP, which I imagine they would want for Rhaegar. Actor bio here. He's also 6'4".

More images here and here. I think he looks a bit like Charlie Hunnam when he smiles, which would be a trip if they were originally trying to get Hunnam for Rhaegar as some have suggested. I also get a bit of a Chris Hemsworth vibe; Hemsworth seems to have been the model used by the artist who depicted Rhaegar in TWOIAF. 

 

Quote

They use each other. They enjoy each other.

Heh, maybe LF and Sansa bang this season? That would be something we wouldn't have been spoiled for, anyway. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[WearyTraveler]

I seem to recall (but I'm not 100% sure) that the actress followed him because they were doing a film together.  If true, the WotW following him after her just proves that they were trying to be thorough.

But I may be confused with Emilia Clarke also following someone on twitter that gt everybody excited and then deflated when it turned out that she was doing a movie with the guy.

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I seem to recall (but I'm not 100% sure) that the actress followed him because they were doing a film together.  If true, the WotW following him after her just proves that they were trying to be thorough.

But I may be confused with Emilia Clarke also following someone on twitter that gt everybody excited and then deflated when it turned out that she was doing a movie with the guy.

That was Sam Claflin, although of course it could turn out that Wilf Scolding and Aisling Franciosi are also doing a movie together.

More tidbits from the EW magazine article:

1. Alan Taylor says the frozen lake portion of the wight hunt (he doesn't call it that) will play like a "shark attack on dry land."

2. D&D's concept for Season 7--initially low-key buildup to an action-packed Season 8 with less action and more conversations--changed dramatically once they sat down to write it, because they realized all the conflicts that were about to occur.

3. The ambush scene (they don't call it that) strives to give a "soldier-level view of what it's like to face fully-grown airborne monsters."

4. On reunions, Bryan Cogman said that more the once the writers had a scene where they contemplated whether X character could have a scene with Y character, and then went on to say "But as much fun as that would be, sometimes it just wouldn't make sense--they couldn't be in a room together without killing each other." 

5. Turner added to Gillen's comment about Sansa and Petyr using each other "There's this underlying tension all the way through, it's like a [fucking] horror movie."

6. Producers have nicknamed Bran "Dr. Branhattan," in a reference to the omniscient Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen.

7. According to Maisie Williams, Arya is "more learning about the political game this year, which she hasn't had to play any role in before." (Maybe this is a reference to Arya and Sansa's dispute over ruling that WOTW mentioned as a spoiler a while ago.)

Edited May 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

7. According to Maisie Williams, Arya is "more learning about the political game this year, which she hasn't had to play any role in before."

YES! I have been wanting Arya to get to Winterfell and start getting involved in the politics of it all and it's about time. Maybe that's why the show decided to merge Arya's plot with the Sansa/LF plot. In the books, Arya knows more about running the North and WF seeing as she is always hanging around Ned. Hopefully we will see more of that and it's Arya Northern ideals clashing with Sansa's LF mentality.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

YES! I have been wanting Arya to get to Winterfell and start getting involved in the politics of it all and it's about time. Maybe that's why the show decided to merge Arya's plot with the Sansa/LF plot. In the books, Arya knows more about running the North and WF seeing as she is always hanging around Ned. Hopefully we will see more of that and it's Arya Northern ideals clashing with Sansa's LF mentality.

WOTW hinted at just this with their spoiler from several months ago about Arya and Sansa having a disagreement over ruling. Sansa's pragmatism will apparently clash with what I assume is Arya's more idealistic or more moral position.

I think this disagreement ties into the alleged script page from 7x07 where Arya and Sansa mend fences after Littlefinger's execution. The dialogue is patchy due to the script owner's name being obscured, but here's my best guesses in brackets using context:
 

Quote

Sansa and Arya look out across the snowy landscape. [Arya] looks up at her big sister.

Arya: Are you all right?

Sansa nods.

Sansa: It's just strange. (beat) In his own horrible way, I [think] he loved me.

Arya shrugs. She doesn't have any [feelings about] it.

Arya: You did the right [thing].

Sansa: You did it.

Arya: I'm just the [executione]r. You passed th[e] [sentence]. You're the Lady of [Winterfell].

Sansa glances at [her].

Sansa: Do[es that both]er you?

Arya shak[es her head]. Nope.

Arya: [I was n]ever going to be as good a [lady?] as you. So I had to be [somet]hing else. (beat) [I n]ever could have survived what you survived.

Sansa: You would have. You're the strongest person I know.

[Arya] looks at her big sister again.

Judging from the bolded parts, it sounds as if Arya ultimately accepts Sansa's authority as Lady of Winterfell...although I wonder what the point of Arya learning about the political side of things is going to be if in the end she realizes that she'd better stay in her lane and leave the politicking to Sansa, which to me is what this passage suggests.

Although that's the end of the script page, Lads2 says that Sansa and Arya end up talking about missing their parents.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Arya: I'm just the [executione]r. You passed th[e] [sentence]. You're the Lady of [Winterfell].

Sansa glances at [her].

Sansa: Do[es that both]er you?

Arya shak[es her head]. Nope.

Arya: [I was n]ever going to be as good a [blank] as you. So I had to be [somet]hing else. (beat) [I n]ever could have survived what you survived.

Ugh! This sounds like the fanfiction I have read on Tumblr.

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Judging from the bolded parts, it sounds as if Arya ultimately accepts Sansa's authority as Lady of Winterfell...although I wonder what the point of Arya learning about the political side of things is going to be if in the end she realizes that she'd better stay in her lane and leave the politicking to Sansa.

I don't think Sansa is going to survive the series.

Edited May 28, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

Ugh! This sounds like the fanfiction I have read on Tumblr.

It does, however

Arya: [I was n]ever going to be as good a [lady] as you. So I had to be [somet]hing else. (beat) [I n]ever could have survived what you survived.

I don't think Arya would have survived if she had remained in King's Landing, no more than Sansa would have survived everything that Arya did when she left King's Landing.

[Raachel2008]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Ugh! This sounds like the fanfiction I have read on Tumblr.

Also, it is re-writing story: in season 1, when they are in King's Landing, Arya tells Ned she does not want to be a lady. It had nothing, zero, nada, zip, to have with Sansa. It is all about herself, about who she is. This is probbably the spoilers that really makes my blood boil.

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Judging from the bolded parts, it sounds as if Arya ultimately accepts Sansa's authority as Lady of Winterfell...although I wonder what the point of Arya learning about the political side of things is going to be if in the end she realizes that she'd better stay in her lane and leave the politicking to Sansa, which to me is what this passage suggests.

Maybe just so she learns how her actions could affect the political landscape, that is one thing she didn't learn or understand, she acted first or did as bid most of the time, only time she thought her action wrong was on Lady Crane.

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It does, however

Arya: [I was n]ever going to be as good a [lady] as you. So I had to be [somet]hing else. (beat) [I n]ever could have survived what you survived.

I don't think Arya would have survived if she had remained in King's Landing, no more than Sansa would have survived everything that Arya did when she left King's Landing.

When this script page first surfaced, I think one of the board posters pointed out that Bryan Cogman or one of the other writers has expressed similar sentiments about Arya and Sansa (that neither would have survived in the other's place).

 

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Also, it is re-writing story: in season 1, when they are in King's Landing, Arya tells Ned she does not want to be a lady. It had nothing, zero, nada, zip, to have with Sansa. It is all about herself, about who she is. This is probbably the spoilers that really makes my blood boil.

It's not as clear in the show, but in the books at least, Arya's failures in the lady department when compared to Sansa are a source of great shame and resentment to her. One of the very first bits of Arya's first POV is her mentally complaining at length about how much better Sansa is at being a lady than Arya, with a description of her skills, talents, and beauty.

 

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe just so she learns how her actions could affect the political landscape, that is one thing she didn't learn or understand, she acted first or did as bid most of the time, only time she thought her action wrong was on Lady Crane.

I guess she may also need political training if she eventually adopts a leadership role outside Winterfell (as Lady of Storm's End as Gendry/Arya shippers would have it), or if Sansa dies and she needs to step up. Arya's interest in political affairs may just be a temporary plot to fuel her conflict in Season 7 with Sansa.

The reference by the producers to Bran as "Dr. Branhattan" in a reference to Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen is an interesting one. Dr. Manhattan among his other abilities has a non-linear perception of time, rendering him omniscient. As a result, throughout the course of The Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan grows increasingly detached from his humanity, loses interest in worldly affairs, and becomes more and more godlike. One of the Lads said that Season 7 Bran is no longer "Bran": he's "all distant and visions." Maybe Season 7 Bran has a similar transformation to Dr. Manhattan.

[Edith]

From EW:

"At least Sansa still has the protection of Brienne, who is forced to unsheathe Oathkeeper more than once this year (and for unpredictable reasons)".

Lads only mentioned the Arya/Brienne one... 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Edith

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

When this script page first surfaced, I think one of the board posters pointed out that Bryan Cogman or one of the other writers has expressed similar sentiments about Arya and Sansa (that neither would have survived in the other's place).

C'etait moi.  Cogman and Maisie Williams both talk about that on the commentary track for episode 506 (you can listen to it here at about 6:30).  So when that script page showed up, that was an element that I thought would not be remotely surprising to actually be in the show.

Quote

Arya's interest in political affairs may just be a temporary plot to fuel her conflict in Season 7 with Sansa.

I think any Stark who makes it back to Winterfell, and certainly someone as opinionated as Arya, would want to have a say in key matters that directly impact their house.  A lot of book readers theorize that Arya's spending so much time amongst the smallfolk would greatly inform any role she'd play in House Stark in the future.

Regarding the Sansa/Arya clash, I've been trying to figure out whether there's some actual issue of governance or if it's just a protracted fight over Littlefinger's presence/Arya's suspicion that Sansa wants to usurp Jon, because if it's the former, it again doesn't sound like the season's resolution has much to do with that (killing Littlefinger doesn't say anything about any earlier disagreements, though that's a time-honoured bait-and-switch manner of conflict resolution in fiction of lesser quality).